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Snowden has been vindicated and he is a hero (Original Post) Harmony Blue May 2015 OP
The courts have not addressed whether the program is constitutional. Thinkingabout May 2015 #1
Do you think that there is anything constitutionally correct about this? marym625 May 2015 #3
Notice poster never agrees, just brings up something else. Rex May 2015 #5
unbelievable marym625 May 2015 #9
IT is right here in this thread...the grudge against someone for being right. Rex May 2015 #15
smh marym625 May 2015 #22
When you are right then it remains right. Glad to know you noticed my consistent stand. Thinkingabout May 2015 #12
Consistency in deflection should not be a point of pride. merrily May 2015 #113
+1,000 malaise May 2015 #51
Notice poster's username is a misnomer WhaTHellsgoingonhere May 2015 #63
It's called propaganda. woo me with science May 2015 #111
Good point. Continual deflection. merrily May 2015 #112
I don't know about that legendary part. d_legendary1 May 2015 #156
In reading the constitution and knowing warrants have been requested and granted, yes. Thinkingabout May 2015 #7
warrants have been granted against everyone in the US? marym625 May 2015 #10
The warrants went to the providers of the records of which was their property. The records does not Thinkingabout May 2015 #14
Which is another bullshit policy marym625 May 2015 #19
Call it whatever you please, the Constitution was around before any of the providers. Thinkingabout May 2015 #23
This has been challenged marym625 May 2015 #25
If the president and congress believe it to be Exilednight May 2015 #55
excellent question. Ask them marym625 May 2015 #58
Exxon pumps gas into me, and that's apparently okay. JackRiddler May 2015 #193
EXXON gas in your vehicle does not give you ownership of the pumps, station Thinkingabout May 2015 #194
Exxon POLLUTION in my veins gives me ownership... JackRiddler May 2015 #200
So pollution is the answer, nope don't think it is, maybe this is a part of the problem. Thinkingabout May 2015 #205
Are you a Turing machine? JackRiddler May 2015 #206
Perhaps mentioning Exxon turns into pollution might make one Thinkingabout May 2015 #207
Do you purchase any articles, services, etc like groceries, milk, gas? Thinkingabout May 2015 #16
What! ? marym625 May 2015 #24
If you eat food, you must support capitalism! JackRiddler May 2015 #201
oh! my bad! marym625 May 2015 #202
by the way marym625 May 2015 #13
The quote i gave you was from the link listed in the thread. Thinkingabout May 2015 #18
General warrants were requested and granted, JDPriestly May 2015 #42
Yes, it is true our homes are "safe" but when a warrant is issued then your home can be inspected. Thinkingabout May 2015 #66
We used to "expect" - reasonably! - that our phone conversations/mail were private bread_and_roses May 2015 #119
Are you old enough to remember looking at a phone bill and observing the long distance calls, Thinkingabout May 2015 #172
Yeah, I remember those bills. randome May 2015 #186
That is the same information delivered to the NSA. I do not know who started Thinkingabout May 2015 #187
Of course I understand that warrants were issued - I said so bread_and_roses May 2015 #189
Why do you think the phone call records do not belong to the providers? Thinkingabout May 2015 #190
Of course the gas pump owner jeepers May 2015 #203
The phone data records never went through you phone, they belong to the provider. Your Thinkingabout May 2015 #204
As I remember the Constitution says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, rhett o rick May 2015 #169
But you don't know that warrants have been requested and granted. You are rhett o rick May 2015 #90
My understanding is that, yes, the program is constitutional and that... PosterChild May 2015 #73
and other courts have found it is unconstitutional marym625 May 2015 #81
I don't believe so . ... PosterChild May 2015 #83
Which Supreme Court case is the basis for your understanding about constitutionality? merrily May 2015 #114
I think they will fail to extend Harmony Blue May 2015 #8
Issuing the warrants is in the Constitution and until that is changed getting the Thinkingabout May 2015 #38
The courts found it illegal Aerows May 2015 #43
+1 Ed Suspicious May 2015 #45
warrants in the constitution? Mnpaul May 2015 #48
The warrants are not issued to persons, houses, they are issued to providers of services, the Thinkingabout May 2015 #94
Clearly, you are no Fourth Amendment scholar. merrily May 2015 #115
Got the doctorate by completing a 6,000 page thesis on the 3rd Amendment. Glassunion May 2015 #158
LOL! But seriously folks.... merrily May 2015 #159
Don't knock the 3rd Amendment. Glassunion May 2015 #163
Plus that lovely news that the Republican congress people are so freaking dysfunctional dixiegrrrrl May 2015 #62
How many illegal activities are constitutional? Can you give me a list? n/t cui bono May 2015 #27
The question of constitionality... PosterChild May 2015 #85
No. There are two kinds of analysis. One is whether a law is, on its face, unconstitutional, merrily May 2015 #116
I find your analysis... PosterChild May 2015 #126
Those purporting to be attorneys on DU always avoid substantive legal questions riderinthestorm May 2015 #151
I do not purport to be an attorney on DU, or off DU. merrily May 2015 #153
Thanks! Keep facts in focus ! /nt/ PosterChild May 2015 #70
It must hurt, Thinkingabout. It must truly hurt. delrem May 2015 #75
I read it was under the Patriot Act it was illegal, the ruling did not exclude other methods. Thinkingabout May 2015 #93
Other methods of what? And, with all due respect, what you give a damn about is totally irrelevant. merrily May 2015 #118
:facepalm: BeanMusical May 2015 #95
It did address the question of whether the program is legal and said no. merrily May 2015 #110
Great news marym625 May 2015 #2
+1 a whole bunch! Enthusiast May 2015 #31
YEP. Metadata illegal...he was right. Rex May 2015 #4
Oh if only marym625 May 2015 #36
Telephone metadata collection was known in 2006, long before anybody knew who Snowden was Cali_Democrat May 2015 #6
No it wasn't Harmony Blue May 2015 #11
The article is from May 2006 and it specifically mentions the phone data collection program Cali_Democrat May 2015 #26
Insane ... Fantastic Anarchist May 2015 #180
Right. It's more about Obama who pushed to "legalize" it after BushCo did it illegally. n/t cui bono May 2015 #28
+1000 marym625 May 2015 #37
It was known, but there was no proof Oilwellian May 2015 #79
Yes. We had hints that it was happening. delrem May 2015 #82
Hints? Cali_Democrat May 2015 #103
What Snowden revealed was way more that just telephone data. And the lie came from your rhett o rick May 2015 #92
The ruling mentioned in the OP was specific to telephone metadata collection only Cali_Democrat May 2015 #101
"way more than just telephone data." woo me with science May 2015 #107
Best anti-bs, anti-shill post ever. merrily May 2015 #122
That's a phenomenal compilation! Posting it is a great public service - thanks! nt GliderGuider May 2015 #123
Jesus. F4lconF16 May 2015 #170
Thanks for all those links red dog 1 May 2015 #171
Wonder why Eric Holder thought he might have a criminal case against Snowden, then? merrily May 2015 #117
Hopefully Snowden will stand trial for his crimes. stonecutter357 May 2015 #124
Yeah, you gotta love the circular logic: Snowden's a criminal! closeupready May 2015 #183
How has anyone's privacy been invaded? randome May 2015 #188
Always Thought So - Always Will cantbeserious May 2015 #17
Thank you again Mr. Snowden. You are an American hero! n/t wildbilln864 May 2015 #20
I am think the full picture is a little more nuanced. iandhr May 2015 #21
Oh please. truebluegreen May 2015 #34
He's not stuck there. He's welcome back - as long as its with an FBI escort. LeftInTX May 2015 #108
Gandhi? Is that you? truebluegreen May 2015 #139
Got the avatar FlatBaroque May 2015 #182
Indeed. truebluegreen May 2015 #198
Someone should make a statue of Snowden! TerrapinFlyer May 2015 #29
How about Snowden bedsheets? randome May 2015 #141
Nothing in that link vindicates Snowden MohRokTah May 2015 #30
A whistleblower by definition has not committed crimes Harmony Blue May 2015 #40
Snowden is NO whistleblower. MohRokTah May 2015 #52
With that my respect for the H with a right arrow just went down a notch. zeemike May 2015 #64
IOW ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #77
Not just any board, a progressive or liberal board zeemike May 2015 #87
Your own words ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #88
Preach it LittleGirl May 2015 #89
My comment was on the comment of the poster. zeemike May 2015 #136
Wow. Predictable immediate, attacking defense not just of HC, but of her *ICON.* woo me with science May 2015 #99
My posts have had nothing to do with HC ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #102
Propaganda is a low, disreputable occupation. woo me with science May 2015 #104
Again, totally off-topic ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #106
heh Bobbie Jo May 2015 #154
Ain't that the damn truth. Number23 May 2015 #184
As I told someone who thought I might be interested, "I'd rather be bitten by rabid dogs merrily May 2015 #120
LOL Cali_Democrat May 2015 #167
If you're gonna let an anonymous poster on a message board influence your vote... Cali_Democrat May 2015 #181
I am sure you feel that voting is for the right thinking people. zeemike May 2015 #185
+ up! /nt/ PosterChild May 2015 #74
The only one doing the spying... Oilwellian May 2015 #80
Spy's don't publicly release information that they know Joe Turner May 2015 #86
+ 1 red dog 1 May 2015 #174
Hey, you're back! BeanMusical May 2015 #96
Kicked and recommended! Enthusiast May 2015 #32
kick samsingh May 2015 #33
I think the compelling public service that Snowden provided - lovemydog May 2015 #35
Agree 100% marym625 May 2015 #39
History moved pretty quickly in vindicating Daniel Ellsberg, and I believe lovemydog May 2015 #44
But no one will be punished but Snowden, cuz, you know, America. nt valerief May 2015 #41
And the authoritarians haz a sad. 99Forever May 2015 #46
pretty much! blackspade May 2015 #47
So stealing hundreds of thousands of documents... randome May 2015 #49
This... rep the dems May 2015 #60
Of course it's more fun to think of some DUers as 'losing' something in this debate. randome May 2015 #65
He's a whistleblower, randome. delrem May 2015 #78
A whistleblower reveals illegality or fraud. randome May 2015 #125
And according to the courts, he revealed illegality. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #129
I don't see it that way. randome May 2015 #132
Really? Because bank robbers usually rob banks to take and keep money. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #133
"...wasn't all that secure..." randome May 2015 #137
He'd be more of a hero in my books if he'd simply released all of the documents in full Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #128
I can appreciate that viewpoint but I don't see ANY government wanting its secrets exposed. randome May 2015 #134
Except as we just saw, unless you have people leaking classified info Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #135
But in reality we have created such a cluster fuck all over the planet with randys1 May 2015 #177
Crows are becoming endangered... L0oniX May 2015 #50
Nah, they're still all living in denial and declaring him a traitor. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #130
. AuntPatsy May 2015 #53
No he hasn't, and no he isn't. gcomeau May 2015 #54
Good. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #131
WTF do you mean... "Good"? gcomeau May 2015 #157
I don't consider it 'legitimate'. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #160
On what grounds? gcomeau May 2015 #173
Yes. YES. YES!!!! 840high May 2015 #56
Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT May 2015 #57
It's time for the president to give him a full pardon and allow him to come home. totodeinhere May 2015 #59
Good. delrem May 2015 #61
And a personal opinion is a more honest one, IMO. randome May 2015 #67
You say delrem May 2015 #69
Yikes, can only see 19 of 64 replies but have a question for all carolinayellowdog May 2015 #68
I like Snowden. delrem May 2015 #72
Wrong on both counts, but don't mind me Blue_Tires May 2015 #71
This also, it seems to me, to be a triumph for US law. delrem May 2015 #76
Authoritarian concern agents are outraged, introduce new legislation... whereisjustice May 2015 #84
Moscow to Kennedy flights available alcibiades_mystery May 2015 #91
I would not kvell just yet. There's still the Supremes. merrily May 2015 #97
"Who are these three judges???" Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #98
He is absolutely a hero. It's way past time to end the criminal secret government. woo me with science May 2015 #100
K & R AzDar May 2015 #105
And metadata is just the tip of the iceberg for these criminals. woo me with science May 2015 #109
Said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I know what Snowden revealed. merrily May 2015 #121
+1 navarth May 2015 #142
Rec. and Kudos to Snowden. But that is one nasty link. Smarmie Doofus May 2015 #127
I see the usual Snowden bashers and totalitarians are out in force hueymahl May 2015 #138
I will NEVER understand the need to call fellow DUers 'authoritarians'. randome May 2015 #140
Not "does not cover it," but does not authorize it. The agency, part of the Executive Branch, merrily May 2015 #146
Fine by me. Such judicial rulings happen nearly every day. randome May 2015 #147
Not really a daily occurrence at the SCOTUS. Something being a common practice for a long time is merrily May 2015 #148
This was actually a federal appeals court ruling. randome May 2015 #149
Some posters are consistently anti-freedom and pro authoritarianism hueymahl May 2015 #152
States that build surveillance machines woo me with science May 2015 #191
easy to understand "kiss up, kick down"-- authoritarian aggression carolinayellowdog May 2015 #150
Yeah the authoritarians are so easy to spot, they instantly reply to your type of post Rex May 2015 #165
kick for Ed Snowden. navarth May 2015 #143
He was already vindicated. But he's still not a hero. True Blue Door May 2015 #144
Can't wait until they pull this sh#t on Hillary. nt ucrdem May 2015 #145
That spin is fascinating. If anything, this is a rejection of Snowden. What the ruling says is... stevenleser May 2015 #155
Snowden is on the right side of this issue, it doesn't make him my hero. cheapdate May 2015 #161
Yes, that was my first reaction too. Damansarajaya May 2015 #162
Nothing new here. n/t Mira May 2015 #164
He hasn't been "vindicated". Funny how ONE illegal act is BAD, but another is perfectly fine? George II May 2015 #166
Yes!! Puzzledtraveller May 2015 #168
K&R red dog 1 May 2015 #175
Post removed Post removed May 2015 #176
This I like! nt wolfie001 May 2015 #178
I already recommended this, but wish I could again. Fantastic Anarchist May 2015 #179
Ellsburg was a Hero Zo Zig May 2015 #192
I'll just leave this here from 2013 Paulie May 2015 #195
Thanks Zo Zig May 2015 #197
Daniel Ellsberg Calls Edward Snowden A 'Hero' Not water May 2015 #196
What about the perfectly legitimate foreign intelligence operations? Adrahil May 2015 #199

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
1. The courts have not addressed whether the program is constitutional.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:04 PM
May 2015

The Court did not address the larger question of whether the program is constitutional and sent the case back down to a lower court for further proceedings. It

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
5. Notice poster never agrees, just brings up something else.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:06 PM
May 2015

The grudge some have against Snowden is downright legendary.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
9. unbelievable
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:09 PM
May 2015

Just seriously, unbelievable

Forget that other courts have found it unconstitutional.

I will never understand the mindset of some people

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
15. IT is right here in this thread...the grudge against someone for being right.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:17 PM
May 2015

Just look at the posts. I remember when some of them could not even admit Snowden has made an impact on the world. They just cannot do it, being a keyboard warrior means never being wrong or admitting to it.

Not worth understanding really, just a sad grudge that now manifests itself into unfocused hatred.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
111. It's called propaganda.
Fri May 8, 2015, 03:45 AM
May 2015


We live in a vile, dishonest, magnificently funded propaganda state now.

Those who build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.



Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796

Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872

Salon: Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097

Snowden: ‘Training Guide’ for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/

The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242

The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454

Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741

Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351





Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
14. The warrants went to the providers of the records of which was their property. The records does not
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:13 PM
May 2015

Belong to the users of the service. You pump gas from EXXON ,ets, you don't own the pump or company.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
19. Which is another bullshit policy
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:21 PM
May 2015

But I already linked you to information about the court established for that saying it's unconstitutional

http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-spying-violated-the-constituion-2013-6

The most significant of those occurred in July, when the court that was established to "hear applications for and grant orders approving electronic surveillance," called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), found that the NSA violated the Fourth Amendment's restriction against unreasonable searches and seizures "on at least one occasion."


And that was back in July 2013.


They had no warrant for much of what they have done. And much of what they did and do with a warrant is still unconstitutional and being fought on many levels. Hence so many places fighting it and refusing to turn over data

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
23. Call it whatever you please, the Constitution was around before any of the providers.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:23 PM
May 2015

Challenge the Constitution, it is a citizens right to do so.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
25. This has been challenged
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:26 PM
May 2015

And courts have found it unconstitutional. The President and many in Congress think it's unconstitutional. There are multiple court cases pending with the argument it's unconstitutional.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
58. excellent question. Ask them
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:34 PM
May 2015

These are from a year ago

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?referrer=

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/politics/obama-nsa-changes/

Even before that
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/27/nsa-data-mining-authorised-obama

Senator Obama voted yes on the FISA vote. He then, as President, extended the bush spying done by the NSA and tried to make it legal. Since the Snowden leaks, he has gone from defending the practices of the NSA, to saying that the metadata collection of US citizens calls, emails and texts are wrong. But nothing he has done, so far, has stopped it.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
193. Exxon pumps gas into me, and that's apparently okay.
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:39 PM
May 2015

Private property! Legal warrants! It's all good!

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
200. Exxon POLLUTION in my veins gives me ownership...
Wed May 13, 2015, 11:26 AM
May 2015

and all of us ownership, of the entities wittingly destroying us, our civilization, and the biosphere. This is a war that Exxon started, and Exxon has chosen to side with mass species extinction and mass human death.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
205. So pollution is the answer, nope don't think it is, maybe this is a part of the problem.
Wed May 13, 2015, 11:17 PM
May 2015

So, you are responsible for pollution.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
16. Do you purchase any articles, services, etc like groceries, milk, gas?
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:19 PM
May 2015

If you purchase these items does it mean you won the company or service you are purchasing. It does not take a link to show you do not own these companies, it is common knowledge. If you want a link I would like to see your ownership in all the sources of your purchases.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
42. General warrants were requested and granted,
Thu May 7, 2015, 07:21 PM
May 2015

the very kinds of warrants that the American Revolution was fought against, the very kinds of warrants that the Fourth Amendment prohibits. Read it. Honestly.

How many times do I have to retrieve the Fourth Amendment from Google to point out its very clear language?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment4.html

A warrant that authorizes the NSA to collect all the data from Verizon does not "particularly describ[e] the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The word particularly means specifically.

The Verizon warrant and order authorizing the collection of the metadata is overly broad in its scope. The NSA is picking up all sorts of irrelevant material with the Verizon order that I saw.

I can't imagine a judge corrupt enough to issue such a vague and broad warrant. But apparently the NSA found one.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
66. Yes, it is true our homes are "safe" but when a warrant is issued then your home can be inspected.
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:19 PM
May 2015

Likewise when a business is issued a warrant their records can also be inspected. You do not own providers of services such as phone, email, internet, etc. The records belongs to the providing companies. They did not request your records from the providers, but they can request a warrant for the records belonging to provider companies. This does not have anything to do with your home.

How do you think you own the provider companies and their records?

bread_and_roses

(6,335 posts)
119. We used to "expect" - reasonably! - that our phone conversations/mail were private
Fri May 8, 2015, 04:18 AM
May 2015

Maybe you're too young to remember that. In the old days of landlines, phone companies kept records too. However, unless I'm mistaken, a SPECIFIC warrant for a SPECIFIC individual was required for law-enforcement to get those records? Or to tap a phone? An individual, specific warrant issued by a judge who had been presented some sort of evidence that law-enforcement had a reasonable basis to suspect probable illegal activity. Or am I totally off-base?

Same with postal mail. We EXPECTED - reasonably - that our mail was private.

No one thinks they "own" the providers of their internet or cell service, anymore than we used to think we "owned" Ma Bell. (We used to "own" the postal service, and should "own" the telecommunications, but that's another story.)

But we did assume we had a right to privacy in our communications unless there was some compelling reason to permit law-enforcement to intrude on that privacy and it was SPECIFICALLY authorized by a judge.

Cell phone communications or e-mail are not different in essence from land line phone or postal mail communications. The only difference is the method of delivery.

Or maybe I'm dreaming?

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
172. Are you old enough to remember looking at a phone bill and observing the long distance calls,
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:56 PM
May 2015

the date the call was made and the length of the call? If you have ever saw this information it is the same exact information in which was delivered after a warrant was issued to the provider for the phone call records. It does not reveal the information during the phone call. Now different agency can and has requested a wire tap in which the information on the phone call is recorded for what ever reason the warrant was issued by the courts.

You may be dreaming if you have never heard of warrants for wire tapping and also for law enforcement agencies to request a warrant to collect personal telephone calls or the information on the calls. This warrant is issued on a specific item. The warrants issued by the FISA to the phone companies, etc to provide phone call records BECAUSE the phone call records belongs to the provider, they do not belong to the person using the service.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
186. Yeah, I remember those bills.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:47 PM
May 2015

Good point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
187. That is the same information delivered to the NSA. I do not know who started
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:53 PM
May 2015

The rumor it was what was said on the calls.

bread_and_roses

(6,335 posts)
189. Of course I understand that warrants were issued - I said so
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:04 PM
May 2015

A warrant issued specifically, for a specific person(s), based on specific evidence presented to a judge. That's rather the point.

You seem to think that "the phone call records belong to the provider" is some major point. It's not.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
190. Why do you think the phone call records do not belong to the providers?
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:13 PM
May 2015

Just because you use a pump at the gas station and pump fuel into your vehicle does not mean you own the pump, gas station or the refinery.

jeepers

(314 posts)
203. Of course the gas pump owner
Wed May 13, 2015, 11:52 AM
May 2015


doesn't own what went thru the pipe once the hose has been returned and the bill has been paid, does he?

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
204. The phone data records never went through you phone, they belong to the provider. Your
Wed May 13, 2015, 05:03 PM
May 2015

Conversation went through your phone and unless wiretapping warrants are issued for a specific number it should remain private.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
169. As I remember the Constitution says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:21 PM
May 2015

papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What is very clear is that no warrant shall be issued without specifically identifying that which searched and what is to be seized. It does not allow blanket searches looking for evidence.

Why do you side with the NSA/CIA Security State over the freedoms and liberties of the people?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
90. But you don't know that warrants have been requested and granted. You are
Fri May 8, 2015, 01:11 AM
May 2015

making that up to defend the all powerful Security State that both Bush and Obama have endorsed. For some the security that comes with fascism is so comforting.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
73. My understanding is that, yes, the program is constitutional and that...
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:39 PM
May 2015

....the dispute is over interpretation of the Patriot act and the broader telecommunications laws, not the constitution.

The collection of information given to a third party with no reasonable expectation of privacy has been considered constitutional for a long long time. Because it is constitutional, the telecommunications act had to specifically prohibit it. The Patriot act amends the telecommunications act to (presumably) allow it.

So this is properly a dispute about the interpretation of an ammendment to an existing law, not a constitutional dispute.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
83. I don't believe so . ...
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:47 PM
May 2015

... one court seems to have expressed the opinion that it would "likely" or "possibly" be held unconstitutional.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2013/12/federal-judge-nsas-almost-orwellian-phone-data-collection-likely-violates-constitution/356207/

That falls far short of actually finding it unconstitutional. And of course the supreme court hasn't weighed in.

This court seemed to have assiduously avoided the constitutional issue.

Of course, I may have missed a ruling - can you cite a source for a court case in which the program was actually ruled unconstitutional ?

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
8. I think they will fail to extend
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:08 PM
May 2015

the section of the Patriot Act by June 1st pertaining to the question of constitutionality, so your point may be moot.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
38. Issuing the warrants is in the Constitution and until that is changed getting the
Thu May 7, 2015, 07:10 PM
May 2015

Records will still be legal. I would think the patriot would be in some form, a Republican congress will probably extend in some form.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
43. The courts found it illegal
Thu May 7, 2015, 07:21 PM
May 2015

and that was what most were complaining about.

If the COURT finding it illegal doesn't overcome your objectives, then nothing short of the entire Administration screaming in the streets that it was illegal will quell them.

At some point, a person has to admit they are wrong. First it was the Constitution, then in was the court.

What do you require? A handwritten letter from Obama?

On the face of it, rational people all said what the NSA was doing was wrong. Months of explanations ensued about how it was wrong. You can cling by your fingernails to the cliff of "but it was legal" while the court disagrees (the biggest talking point), but you might want to take the opportunity to accept the hands stretched out to take yours so that you don't have to be so embarrassed about the position you took.

You defended it. You were wrong. I'm wrong occasionally, too.

Clinging to it when every damn thing that the defenders needed to decimate their arguments (a court ruling) is your choice, but it isn't going to change any minds anymore. You don't even have that fig leaf.

Mnpaul

(3,655 posts)
48. warrants in the constitution?
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:04 PM
May 2015

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

unconstitutional behavior is what has to change

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
94. The warrants are not issued to persons, houses, they are issued to providers of services, the
Fri May 8, 2015, 01:27 AM
May 2015

records belongs to the providers. They do not belong to the people purchasing the service. This is the difference.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
159. LOL! But seriously folks....
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:58 AM
May 2015

I can't even imagine that. Paul Revere had 16 kids, a two bedroom home and either his mother or his mother in law lived with him. The kids all slept in the attic. I wonder if any British troops demanded he put them up?

Glassunion

(10,201 posts)
163. Don't knock the 3rd Amendment.
Fri May 8, 2015, 01:56 PM
May 2015

I'm a proud card-carrying member of the Third Amendment Association. We take our 3rd Amendment rights very seriously.

Our motto: "From Our Cold, Dead Knockers"...

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
62. Plus that lovely news that the Republican congress people are so freaking dysfunctional
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:56 PM
May 2015

they can't pass the stuff they want to pass.
So I too am hoping the Act gets shot down.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
85. The question of constitionality...
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:57 PM
May 2015

...is whether or not an existing law is consistent with the higher principles of the Constitution, not whether a specific act is or isn't a violation of it.

Federal law makes smoking pot illegal. No one would say that smoking pot is unconstitutional.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
116. No. There are two kinds of analysis. One is whether a law is, on its face, unconstitutional,
Fri May 8, 2015, 04:00 AM
May 2015

The other is whether a law, as applied is unconstitutional. "As applied" could be one act.

Federal law makes smoking pot illegal. No one would say that smoking pot is unconstitutional.


This is the legal equivalent of gibberish. The Constitution binds federal government and some portions of the Bill of Rights also bind state and local governments., The Constitution does not bind individuals not acting in any official capacity or under color of law, whether they smoke pot or not. Nothing I do can possibly be unconstitutional. Illegal or legal, yes. Unconstitutional, no.

This is Constitution 101.
 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
151. Those purporting to be attorneys on DU always avoid substantive legal questions
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:15 AM
May 2015

Always. They're never to be found when the discussion turns legal except high profile celebrity crimes where easy legal analysis can be found in Time magazine.

But make it about Snowden or the other whistleblowers personally and they're all over those threads like white on rice.

Thanks for providing your perspective.


merrily

(45,251 posts)
153. I do not purport to be an attorney on DU, or off DU.
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:20 AM
May 2015

However, my own work has involved working closely with attorneys. Also, I have read a good number of cases, both in connection with my work and out of curiosity.

I appreciate your kind words.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
75. It must hurt, Thinkingabout. It must truly hurt.
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:54 PM
May 2015

That
"A federal appeals court ruled on Thursday that the telephone metadata collection program, under which the National Security Agency gathers up millions of phone records on an ongoing daily basis, is illegal under the Patriot Act."

Tough potatoes?
hehehe

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
93. I read it was under the Patriot Act it was illegal, the ruling did not exclude other methods.
Fri May 8, 2015, 01:24 AM
May 2015

I really don't give a damn if the information is collected, it is unimportant to me, doesn't harm me in any way. It is like the governor in Texas running the guard out to watch military maneuvers because the gubermint is coming to get him. I am not paranoid. It is legal in the US under the constitution to go to court and get a warrant and gather the information requested from the owner of the information and ergo, it is legal to gather phone call data.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
110. It did address the question of whether the program is legal and said no.
Fri May 8, 2015, 03:43 AM
May 2015

Why are you trying to move the goalpost to something the court decision that is the subject of this thread did not even address?

Sending a case back to the lower court for "further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion" is standard language. Courts of appeal don't do their own clean up work. No clue why you think that language bore repeating.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
2. Great news
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:04 PM
May 2015

Last edited Thu May 7, 2015, 06:59 PM - Edit history (1)

This isn't the first court that has said what the NSA is doing is illegal and it probably won't be the last. But they just keep doing it

Snowden is a hero. And no matter how much we find out about the wrongs and ills our country is doing, thanks to Edward Snowden, even with the fact he went about this by first going through proper channels and was rebuffed, there will be people who will call him a traitor. Unfortunately, that includes the government

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
4. YEP. Metadata illegal...he was right.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:05 PM
May 2015

Which means heads are exploding all over the place...hard to redirect a narrative when the US court system is against it too.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
36. Oh if only
Thu May 7, 2015, 07:02 PM
May 2015

But the people who can't handle that our country can suck in certain areas, or understand that blowing the whistle on unconstitutional acts by a government agency is a good thing, seem to have found a way.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
6. Telephone metadata collection was known in 2006, long before anybody knew who Snowden was
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:07 PM
May 2015
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Why keep repeating this lie?

It doesn't matter anyways, right?

Because it's not about Snowden.

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
11. No it wasn't
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:11 PM
May 2015

had you bothered to read the article I linked even the White House now concedes that changes need to be made to the NSA metadata collection.

Thank you Snowden, a true American hero!

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
26. The article is from May 2006 and it specifically mentions the phone data collection program
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:27 PM
May 2015

Snowden didn't disclose the program.

But remember, it's not about Snowden.

LOL.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
79. It was known, but there was no proof
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:11 PM
May 2015

Snowden provided the documented proof that was needed for lawsuits to proceed. And they are proceeding.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
82. Yes. We had hints that it was happening.
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:20 PM
May 2015

We're all survivors of the * years.

Some, like you, liked the fact that it was happening.
Others weren't so amused.

Snowden PROVED IT, even to people like you.



 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
103. Hints?
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:27 AM
May 2015

LOL. Did you not follow the news?

The article from 2006 is quite specific about what exactly was being collected by the NSA.

pay more attention next time.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
92. What Snowden revealed was way more that just telephone data. And the lie came from your
Fri May 8, 2015, 01:18 AM
May 2015

heroes Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander that told Congress that they were not collecting meta data on millions of Americans.

And you are correct that this is bigger than Snowden, but he did help open the door. The door that some of you want to keep closed. Denial is the key to happiness for some.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
101. The ruling mentioned in the OP was specific to telephone metadata collection only
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:20 AM
May 2015

This program was known in 2006. Nice try though.

Ron and Rand Paul, claimed Snowden revealed it, but he didn't.

You bought it hook, line and sinker.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
107. "way more than just telephone data."
Fri May 8, 2015, 03:13 AM
May 2015

Thank you. He revealed a sweeping corporate surveillance state unrivaled by any totalitarian government of the past.

He is a national hero and has given us perhaps our only chance to end the subversion of our democratic government by criminals.


The Creepy, Long-Standing Practice of Undersea Cable Tapping
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023277224

What is the NSA really for? (Corporate power and suppression of dissent)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024215519

"Clear evidence of collusion between TransCanada and the federal government assisting local police to unlawfully monitor and harass political protestors”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023049508

Corporate Espionage and the Secret War Against Citizen Activism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111643982

NSA Spying Not Very Focused on Terrorism: Power, Money and Crushing Dissent Are Real Motives Ops
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023923016

Keiser Report: CIA, NSA & Economic Espionage (E498) (second half with Greg Palast)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017146372

Spooky Business: Corporate Espionage Against Non-profits
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024106205

NSA data could be most useful for connected types on Wall Street.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983519

NSA spied on EU's Anti Trust Chief
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024204596

2011: Wall Street firms spy on protesters with police in tax-funded center
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023286585

OUTRAGEOUS: Our Tax Money Funds Gov Surveillance Center In Lower Manhattan--& Wall St Is Part Of It!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2178769

NSA's Massive New Spy Center to Track Your Emails, Internet Activity, and Phone Calls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101620852

Obama Quietly Signs Abusive Spy Bill He Once Vowed to Eliminate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022104861

Obama repeals Magna Carta, asserting powers our forefathers denied to Kings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101655620

Obama's Memo on Killing Americans Twists 'Imminent Threat' Like Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654919

Obama no better than Bush when it comes to security vs. civil liberties.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022355307

Obama Admin Seeks Permission TO LIE In Response To FOI Requests - Even To The COURTS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2185303

NDAA on trial: Obama Administration fights ban on indefinite detention of Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101748688

Obama administration complicit with private prison industry: President Obama's IncarcerNation
http://www.nationofchange.org/president-obama-s-incarcernation-1335274655

Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022084702

NDAA, signed by Obama, is a direct attack against legitimate protest and dissent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022064803

NSA Whistleblower: All Americans under constant surveillance, all info. stored, no matter the post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002193487; http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021935289

Bipartisan Congress Disgracefully Approves the FISA Warrantless Spying Bill for Five More Years
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022087323

While Public & Media Focused on 2nd Amendment, 5th Amendment Quietly Dismantled
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022390581

How the Obama administration justifies extrajudicial killing of Americans,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022318187

Judge Says Under Law Executive Branch Can Commit Acts That Sure Do Seem Unconstitutional
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022122464

Obama Justice Dept. says wiretap lawsuit should not proceed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014337039

NDAA Lawsuit- Hedges v. Obama, The Last Thin Line of Defense
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022357078

Federal authorities step up efforts to license surveillance drones for law enforcement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022383596

Big Banks and FBI worked together vs Occupy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022095056]

FBI Investigated 'Occupy' As Possible 'Domestic Terrorism' Threat, Internal Documents Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061578

FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring (Updated the OP)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022057064

Public Buses Across Country Quietly Adding Microphones to Record Passenger Conversations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965291

Street artist behind satirical NYPD 'Drone' posters arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021920967

The Obama DOJ urged the Supreme Court's endorsement of strip searches.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521527

Obama Administration Fights to Allow Warrantless GPS Tracking
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1074474

Anonymous to FBI: hey, dudes, maybe you could take a break from...investigating activists....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022145621

Half a billion dollars for drones to spy on Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021876414

From Bradley Manning to Aaron Swartz -- The Government's Inhumane Persecution of Brave Truth Tellers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941

The sight of Army helicopters and the sound of gunfire...on Houston's south side
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276742

Kiriakou and Stuxnet: the danger of the still-escalating Obama whistleblower war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275570

Can the DEA Hide a Surveillance Camera on Your Property?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237059

Social Media and the Stasi
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021888029

Homeland Security Wants to More Than Double Its Predator Drone Fleet Inside the US, Despite Safety/Privacy Invasions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014312823

CIA Behind Bizarre Censorship Incident At Alleged 9/11 Plotters’ Gitmo Trial
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022280285

“I Am Wearing My Conviction As A Badge Of Honor.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275128

Meet the Contractors Turning America's Police Into a Paramilitary Force
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12525281

How Secrecy Corrodes Democracy
http://election.democraticunderground.com/101655009

Obama Quietly Issues Ruling Saying It's Legal For The FBI To Break The Law
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7545687

US Pulls Plug on Iran Cable News (Press TV)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014394770

DHS Watchdog OKs 'Suspicionless' Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022339091

One Of The NSA's Original Whistleblowers Says The Goal Is 'Total Population Control'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025225549

Petition Calls On Obama Stop Intimidation Of Journalists And Whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025509395

U.S. Plunges in Global Press Freedom Rankings As Obama Wages War on Whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024488178

Obama Promises, Including Whistleblower Protections, Disappear
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014549454

President Obama on Whistleblowers: Then and Now -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x536574

Obama's unprecedented war on whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101613051

James Risen: Obama Is 'Greatest Enemy To Press Freedom In A .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025401662

An Assault from Obama's Escalating War on Journalism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025030391

Obama administration to reveal legal justification for killing Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014808253

Obama's Memo on Killing Americans Twists 'Imminent Threat' Like Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654919

NSA Phone Snooping Cannot Be Challenged in Court, Feds Say ..
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1014542562

Democratic establishment unmasked: prime defenders of NSA bulk collection
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10023337088

NSA can store a billion cell phone calls.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023125853

N.S.A. Examines Social Networks of U.S. Citizens (Decision Made In Secret 2010)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014605329

PBS Frontline Exposes (Softly) Bush's and Obama's Authorization and Coverup of NSA Spying
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/eric-zuesse/55928/pbs-frontline-exposes-softly-bushs-and-obamas-authorization-and-coverup-of-nsa-illegal-surveillance-of-

Stopping police militarization = confronting corporate politicians (increased under Obama)
...http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025416709

Federal grants drive the militarization of police departments
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025383806

Why Is President Obama Keeping a Journalist in Prison in Yemen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023300531

James Clapper Calls Journalists "Criminal Accomplices" -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017174990

Rachel Maddow on David Miranda and the White House
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/19/1232435/-Rachel-Maddow-on-David-Miranda-and-the-White-House

Obama Pentagon Employs Bush-Era Propagandists to Screen Embedding Journalists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6380567

Obama the Conservative: Little Hope for Change
http://www.obamatheconservative.com/

Obama: After 911, we tortured some folks.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014860709''

Obama and GOPers Worked Together to Kill Bush Torture Probe
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation

"My Head Exploded When Obama Sanctimoniously Said, 'We Tortured Some Folks'"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025339047

Obama Administration: Further Legitimizing Targeted Assassinations by Drones
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/05/02/further-legitimizing-targeted-assassinations-by-drones/

Washington gets explicit: its 'war on terror' is permanent
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/17/endless-war-on-terror-obama

President Obama’s Dragnet (New York Times Editorial)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022960012

Obama Justice Dept. declines to pursue allegations that CIA spied on Senate Intelligence Committee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014843337

Obama DOJ Asks Court to Grant Immunity to George W. Bush For Iraq War
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11781446

NDAA on trial: Obama Administration DOJ fights ban on indefinite detention of Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101748688

DEA and DOJ Struck Deal with Mexico's Most Notorious Drug Cartel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4410768
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-and-the-sinaloa-cartel-2014-1#ixzz2qKWem3w8

Chilling Legal Memo From Obama DOJ Justifies Assassination of US Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654954

DOJ lied to Supreme Court about domestic surveillance
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140514/06214727229/doj-still-trying-to-hide-fact-it-flat-out-lied-to-supreme-court-about-domestic-surveillance.shtml

The Obama administration/DOJ war on whistleblowers and federal unions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586389

DOJ Mysteriously Quits Monsanto Antitrust Investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021911441

Holder/Obama administration seeks to legalize lying in response to Freedom of Information requests.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586380

NSA Phone Spying Cannot Be Challenged in Court, Feds Say ..
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1014542562

The Obama DOJ urged the Supreme Court's endorsement of strip searches for minor traffic stops.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586369
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521527

Holder overlooks DEA abuse of spying information, construction of false evidence trails against Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1168570

DOJ goes all the way to the SC to argue for warrantless GPS tracking on cars
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586375

Obama/Holder War on Journalism coming to a head (Risen)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101699216
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/08/04/obamas-war-journalism-coming-head
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1269998

Obama/Holder more hostile to medical marijuana patients than any president in history
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002650922
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5585204

Feds seek hard prison time for rural Washington pot growers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014801804

Obama DOJ spying on AP reporters, editors re: leaks; other news organizations
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/15/opinion/spying-on-the-associated-press.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014487549

Obama/Holder DOJ drags out Tesoro investigation (Refinery Explosion) for 4 years; no criminal charges vs. Big Energy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025407823

Obama DOJ drags feet at accountability on Deepwater Horizon
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/04/22/doj-sits-on-its-thumbs/

Obama DOJ Allows Bank of America to Deduct $12 Billion of $17 Billion Settlement
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5427407

Exporting Corruption (Asset Forfeiture), DOJ Looks for Lucrative Overseas Partnerships
http://www.forfeiturereform.com/exporting_corruption_doj_looks_for_lucrative_overseas_partnerships

Obama/Holder Leak Investigations Outrageous and Unprecedented
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/05/obama_s_justice_department_holder_s_leak_investigations_are_outrageous_and.html

The DoJ under Obama/Holder refused to prosecute anyone for torture...but Holder had no problem prosecuting a CIA agent who leaked the name of a torturer
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022846735
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/us/former-cia-officer-pleads-guilty-in-leak-case.html?_r=0

Too Big to Jail: Letting criminal banks and bankers off the hook
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024906501
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017201343
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025558689
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014571503
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025503531

Obama Justice Department Sues Telecom for Challenging National Security Letter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014170619

Obama DOJ Argues ‘No Constitutional Right Not to Become an Informant’
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025309330

Operation Choke Point- The DOJ using banks to shut down industries they don't like
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024880788

Obama/Holder DOJ Looks To Overturn Ruling That Would Apply Fair Sentencing Act Retroactively
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023334909

How Eric Holder Facilitated the Most Unjust Presidential Pardon in American History
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023253563

Holder and Obama Dishonesty On Mandatory Minimums, the Drug War and Mass Incarceration
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023492539

US & NSA Accused of (Holder defends) Criminal Privacy Violations in Dozens of Nations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023086724

Obama DOJ defends NSA's Associational Tracking Program; No justification even in Patriot Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023455121

US declares socialists Freedom Road a terrorist organization
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2010/09/raid-s29.html

ACLU sues as DOJ ignores surveillance transparency law
https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/aclu-sues-doj-ignores-surveillance-transparency-law

Obama Justice Department has launched twice as many Espionage Act prosecutions against domestic leakers as all previous administrations combined.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941

The only official punished by Obama DOJ for the illegal NSA program was the one who discussed it. The same is now true of torture.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/27/obama-war-on-whistleblowers-purpose

DOJ Drone Memo revealed: Government can overrule 4th amendment
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11784727

Heavy Redactions in DOJ Memo leave doubts on Data Surveillance Program
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101952

Justice Department And NSA Memos Proposing Broader Powers For NSA To Collect Data
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023114180

DOJ's outrageously aggressive prosecution of internet activist, Aaron Swartz
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/al-franken-eric-holder_n_2934627.html

Under Obama DOJ, Bradley Birkenfeld, UBS Whistleblower, Finds Himself in Federal Prison
http://www.cnbc.com//id/41257962

Obama/Holder DOJ sided with Rove in politically motivated prosecution of fr. AL governor, Don Siegelman,
Then, the person who handled the paperwork, got onto the Supreme Court.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Elena-Kagan--Willing-Acco-by-Michael-Collins-100622-971.html

Chilling Legal Memo From Obama DOJ Justifies Assassination of US Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654954

Obama seeks longer PATRIOT Act extension than Republicans (December 2013)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x380450

When it comes to civil liberties, apparently Third Way Democrats are just as bad as Republicans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022101960

red dog 1

(27,647 posts)
171. Thanks for all those links
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:45 PM
May 2015

The one that makes me the maddest is the fourth from last.

"Obama/Holder DOJ sided with Rove in politically motivated prosecution of former Alabama Gov.
Don Siegelman"

merrily

(45,251 posts)
117. Wonder why Eric Holder thought he might have a criminal case against Snowden, then?
Fri May 8, 2015, 04:11 AM
May 2015

Disclosing things that are already public knowledge doesn't seem much of a crime. A breach contract case at most.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
183. Yeah, you gotta love the circular logic: Snowden's a criminal!
Fri May 8, 2015, 05:59 PM
May 2015

Q: Why? What did he do?

A: Revealed top secret information!

Q: You mean, the fact that the American people have had their privacy invaded by their own government?

A: THAT is old news, but it was still top secret!

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
188. How has anyone's privacy been invaded?
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:55 PM
May 2015

It's okay if telecom corporations store the data but not the government? Corporations can search their own records any time they want. Is there any evidence that they are?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

iandhr

(6,852 posts)
21. I am think the full picture is a little more nuanced.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:21 PM
May 2015

The reason I am hesitant to call him a hero is due to the fact he is in Moscow. Most likely he is talking with the FSB

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
34. Oh please.
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:56 PM
May 2015

He's in Moscow because the US revoked his passport and stranded him there in transit. That's the nuance (you do recall that he spent a month in the airport, right?).

LeftInTX

(24,549 posts)
108. He's not stuck there. He's welcome back - as long as its with an FBI escort.
Fri May 8, 2015, 03:17 AM
May 2015

And when he gets back, it won't be much fun.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
141. How about Snowden bedsheets?
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:27 AM
May 2015

With Snowden "carryin' a thumbdrive of liberty!" Or whatever that was.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
52. Snowden is NO whistleblower.
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:14 PM
May 2015

He's a spy against the Untied States and should be tried, convicted, and imprisoned for his high crimes.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
77. IOW ...
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:08 PM
May 2015

"Dear Hillary - Due to the fact that an anonymous poster sporting your logo on a message board said something I disagree with, about a topic that has nothing to do with you, my respect for your 'H with an arrow' just went down a notch."

Now that's the kind of mature, politically-involved attitude that we need more of.

Jesus Hussein Christ. Is THIS what we're down to? Seriously?



zeemike

(18,998 posts)
87. Not just any board, a progressive or liberal board
Fri May 8, 2015, 12:12 AM
May 2015

And it is just as mature as calling him a traitor, which is a criminal offense, and declaring him guilty as if he has been judged by a Hillary supporter and found guilty.

And I always thought the H in JC's name stood for Hebrew sense that was what he was.
Hussein is an Arabic name.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
88. Your own words ...
Fri May 8, 2015, 12:42 AM
May 2015
"With that my respect for the H with a right arrow just went down a notch."

You said nothing about Snowden, about calling him a traitor, or the maturity/immaturity thereof. Your post had nothing to do with whether he was guilty or not, or whether certain people had or had not declared him to be.

Your post was about your "respect going down a notch" for a politician on the basis of someone saying something on a message board that you didn't like while displaying her logo as an avatar.

That's some deep political thinking there - and attempting to change the subject matter of your own post doesn't make it any - uh, yeah - deeper.



zeemike

(18,998 posts)
136. My comment was on the comment of the poster.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:35 AM
May 2015

Am I not allowed to do that?...or are all comments allowed to stand without challenge?... if so you just violated that rule.

I chose not to reply to the OP because I completely agree that Ed Snowden is a hero and is vindicated...I have said so many times now...right from the beginning.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
99. Wow. Predictable immediate, attacking defense not just of HC, but of her *ICON.*
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:07 AM
May 2015

What a paranoid, defensive propaganda state we live in now.

How pathetic and base an occupation, this incessant message control...

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
102. My posts have had nothing to do with HC ...
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:22 AM
May 2015

... or her *ICON* (!!!!!!!)

They are about someone basing their opinion of any politician on the fact that someone displaying their *ICON* (!!!!!!) on a message board said something they didn't like.

DO try to keep up! It's always advisable to actually follow what the discussion at hand is about before weighing-in with a comment about what it's NOT about.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
104. Propaganda is a low, disreputable occupation.
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:31 AM
May 2015


I couldn't live with myself, distributing talking points for today's totalitarian neoliberals. And I mean that in utter seriousness. My conscience is worth more than anyone could possibly pay me.


Chris Hedges: A society of captives
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025927255





Number23

(24,544 posts)
184. Ain't that the damn truth.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:23 PM
May 2015


And that on top of the such concentrated, COMMITTED (!) spamming. The same post in every thread. And the save five folks constantly cheering it on.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
120. As I told someone who thought I might be interested, "I'd rather be bitten by rabid dogs
Fri May 8, 2015, 04:18 AM
May 2015

than take money to post some of the things I've seen posted at DU."

Told me it would pay me well, but I never even asked how much. No interest.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
181. If you're gonna let an anonymous poster on a message board influence your vote...
Fri May 8, 2015, 05:23 PM
May 2015

...you probably shouldn't be voting.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
185. I am sure you feel that voting is for the right thinking people.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:46 PM
May 2015

Well it is not, it is for everyone for whatever reason they chose.
But I am not voting for an anonymous person on a message board...but it does show who stands where on issues...birds of a feather flocking together sort of thing.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
86. Spy's don't publicly release information that they know
Fri May 8, 2015, 12:10 AM
May 2015

would imprison them or result in their execution. They lay low like snakes and do their devious work undetected. Does that sound like Snowden? Snowden is a hero and history will record him as such. If anyone should be imprisoned it's those in power that have turned our constitution upside down in their grab for raw power.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
35. I think the compelling public service that Snowden provided -
Thu May 7, 2015, 06:59 PM
May 2015

demonstrating in detail that the governments of the USA and Great Britain were spying on their own citizens, and lying about the extent to which they were doing that - outweighs whatever legal particulars the government may have against him.

It's time for the government to drop all charges against him. Allow him to travel freely, and return to the USA or go anywhere he wants, with no more legal constraints.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
39. Agree 100%
Thu May 7, 2015, 07:12 PM
May 2015

He also followed protocol to expose this before he ended up handing the information to the press. He was rebuffed at every turn.

Evidently, whistle blower is only good for people who blow the whistle on corporations, and due to bad publicity, the US can't ignore. It's against the government and its illegal acts, then you are a traitor

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
44. History moved pretty quickly in vindicating Daniel Ellsberg, and I believe
Thu May 7, 2015, 07:23 PM
May 2015

it will also move quickly in vindicating Edward Snowden. I think the compelling public interest in the public learning about the origins of the Vietnam War via the Pentagon Papers (Ellsberg) is pretty similar to the compelling public interest in the public learning about the massive surveillance practiced by the government of Great Britain and the USA on their own citizens since 9/11 (Snowden).

The government's claim in both cases was that the leaks endangered national security. I think the Pentagon Papers Supreme Court opinion (ruling the government could not practice prior restraint to prevent their publication in the New York Times) provides some illumination on that matter. I think some of those same arguments are similar in the Snowden case, i.e., that there was no imminent harm to national security and that the public interest in learning of the information outweighs the risks claimed by the government. Obviously there are differences between the two, but as Ellsberg has said repeatedly, there are also some meaningful similarities.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
49. So stealing hundreds of thousands of documents...
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:12 PM
May 2015

...fleeing the country, letting some national security information be published and finally taking refuge in Russia...all because he kept his fingers crossed and hoped that a judge might someday, somehow agree with him about something that's been known since 2006?

This is the hero you look up to?

At best, he's a misguided narcissist.

And whatever the judicial system decides on NSA-related matters is okay with me and, I think, with most of those who see Snowden in a similar light.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
65. Of course it's more fun to think of some DUers as 'losing' something in this debate.
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:16 PM
May 2015

Because that validates their need to be a 'winner'. Nothing has changed for Snowden, though. I doubt it ever will.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

delrem

(9,688 posts)
78. He's a whistleblower, randome.
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:08 PM
May 2015

And this court decision is a vindication for him, or goes a long way to vindicate him.

Even the most disgusting repug would have to agree with THAT!
Wouldn't you say?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
125. A whistleblower reveals illegality or fraud.
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:26 AM
May 2015

Stealing whatever he could get away with and dumping hundreds of thousands of documents into the hands of media corporations and then hoping that something sticks is not by any definition of the word a 'whistleblower'.

In addition, the first thing Snowden and Greenwald led off with was a misinterpretation of PRISM. That was his most pressing complaint about the government -not the metadata- and he got that wrong.

The only reason he started talking about metadata is because nothing else was sticking. "Well, shit, that didn't work. Let's try this, instead."
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
132. I don't see it that way.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:23 AM
May 2015

If someone robbed a bank and it was determined in the course of the investigation that the bank president was embezzling money, is the thief a hero?

And this court decision merely states that the Patriot Act does not cover the collection. It does not rule that the collection of business records is unlawful. It never has been so I don't understand why Snowden wanted us to believe differently.

If it needs to stop, I'm fine with that. But being precise about the laws covering business records, it's obvious to me that there is nothing illegal with storing metadata in a black box system that even Carl Bernstein said seems secure.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
133. Really? Because bank robbers usually rob banks to take and keep money.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:28 AM
May 2015

Are you saying you don't believe Snowden intended to reveal immoral and illegal actions on the part of the gov't?

I tend to think if it had simply been about making money for himself, he wouldn't have revealed squat, simply sold what he took to a foreign power and we'd never have heard a thing about it.

(ETA and, if it was so secure, Snowden couldn't have grabbed anything off to reveal. Obviously it wasn't all that secure after all.)

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
137. "...wasn't all that secure..."
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:54 AM
May 2015

The idea that a minor character with delusions of grandeur was able to steal so much is astonishing and points out complacency on the part of everyone concerned with keeping the data secure.

I do think Snowden wanted something for himself but it wasn't money. He wanted to be seen as something other than a minor IT grunt whose life apparently seemed meaningless to him. At least that's my layman's analysis of his motives.

When he wasn't able to get the reaction he wanted by combing the data for something troubling, only then did he start giving the documents away to media companies.

I just don't see that as 'heroic'. It looks needy and hopeful to me, as if he's holding his fingers crossed each time he makes an appearance.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
128. He'd be more of a hero in my books if he'd simply released all of the documents in full
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:00 AM
May 2015

as soon as he was out of reach. Government should not have secrets from its citizens. If we're doing things we have to keep 'secret', we're doing it wrong.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
134. I can appreciate that viewpoint but I don't see ANY government wanting its secrets exposed.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:30 AM
May 2015

The 'Classified' stamp is used far too often but it does serve a purpose. Neither you nor I have the right to decide these things. That's why we have courts and that's why we have representative government (in theory).
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
135. Except as we just saw, unless you have people leaking classified info
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:34 AM
May 2015

you don't have 'standing' in the courts to challenge when people are spying on you.

The system we have is working for those who want to commit crimes in secret, and 'broken' for the rest of us. As you say, they only represent us 'in theory'. In reality, that secrecy simply helps them continue to oppress the rest of us, stripping us of our rights. Better to abandon secrecy, and simply do everything aboveboard.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
177. But in reality we have created such a cluster fuck all over the planet with
Fri May 8, 2015, 04:08 PM
May 2015

our foreign policy, most of it prior to Obama, that we better have some shit secret or the whole damn thing could explode.

But I am against secrets too, and I think it is time to do like the band-aid, just rip it off, let em all out and no more secrets.

Might force us to act appropriate in other's affairs, finally.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
54. No he hasn't, and no he isn't.
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:22 PM
May 2015

What is it with people being incapable of comprehending that Snowden did not ONLY leak data on this specific program?

HE GAVE THE CHINESE INTEL ON NSA TARGETS IN CHINA. There was nothing in that that involved "whistleblowing".

If he ever sets foot on US soil again he will rightly spend a very long time in a prison cell.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
131. Good.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:04 AM
May 2015

The NSA is a rogue agency and needs to be shut down. They blatantly lie to Congress and should be completely defunded and every single person in the organization fired.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
157. WTF do you mean... "Good"?
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:54 AM
May 2015

Good he committed an act of espionage against his own country, what a hero? What the fuck are you thinking? That that will somehow cause the US to shut down all intelligence activities and the NSA will disappear and you'll be happy? What is passing for a thought process in your head that resulted in "Good" being your reaction to Snowden compromising *legitimate* US overseas intelligence activities?

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
160. I don't consider it 'legitimate'.
Fri May 8, 2015, 12:10 PM
May 2015

I consider it a maladaptive way of interacting with other human beings.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
173. On what grounds?
Fri May 8, 2015, 03:19 PM
May 2015

Or are you one of those "ALL intelligence activities are evil" people who think the US shouldn't have an intelligence capability at all? Because boy, would that work out well...

totodeinhere

(13,034 posts)
59. It's time for the president to give him a full pardon and allow him to come home.
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:34 PM
May 2015

Yes, I realize that he committed no crime and a pardon should not be necessary. But just to be on the safe side the president should pardon him to prevent rogue elements from attempting to get him.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
61. Good.
Thu May 7, 2015, 08:46 PM
May 2015

Supporters of the program are totally off the wall. That's a personal opinion, but I can't help that.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
67. And a personal opinion is a more honest one, IMO.
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:23 PM
May 2015

I'd rather be swayed by emotional points of view than by those who claim 'Unconstitutional!' every step of the way. Because the 'Unconstitutional!' crowd sounds uncomfortably like a lot of Conservatives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

delrem

(9,688 posts)
69. You say
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:25 PM
May 2015

"I'd rather be swayed by emotional points of view than by those who claim 'Unconstitutional!' every step of the way."

I neither understand, nor do I want to understand such a sentence.

carolinayellowdog

(3,247 posts)
68. Yikes, can only see 19 of 64 replies but have a question for all
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:24 PM
May 2015

and I'll even log off to see the responses, if any, from all the bullies I've put on ignore over the last dozen years:

Can you really look at and listen to this guy and see and hear a villain? Apart from whatever predispositions any of us have to interpret him as good or bad based on whether he reflects badly on people we admire-- what does your gut, or your heart, or your soul, tell you about what kind of person he is?

As a gay man who has been astonished as often as not by revelations of who is and isn't gay, I will confess to very defective gaydar. But in terms of getting an overall reading of whether someone is a hero or villain, an altruist or self-serving tool of evil forces, I think I've had a better record of good-dar and bad-dar.

Snowden makes a VERY unconvincing villain and the more people insist he is one, the more suspect they seem.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
72. I like Snowden.
Thu May 7, 2015, 09:36 PM
May 2015

Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

He isn't a favorite in the highest Dem circuits, including Obama and Hillary, though.
He's out of favor at those elevations.

We can all see the pattern.

eta: one would expect, from any politician advocating change from the status quo, an admission of ameliorating circumstances w.r.t. "whistle blowing" cases. But that doesn't happen. Petraeus gets off, though - of course. So does Cheney.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
76. This also, it seems to me, to be a triumph for US law.
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:01 PM
May 2015

Except for one thing.
Does US law understand the concept of "ameliorating circumstance" as defence in a whistle blowing case?

I would not advise Snowden to waltz into the US, giving himself up to be Emmanuel Goldstein for this nutcase of a country.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
84. Authoritarian concern agents are outraged, introduce new legislation...
Thu May 7, 2015, 10:55 PM
May 2015

The Prohibition of Information Which Reveals Embarrassing Violations of Civil Rights by Former, Current and Future US Presidents Act of 2015.

"A BILL to recognize torturers as patriots, unlike the actions of Daniel Ellsberg, Glenn Greenwald, Michael Moore and Eric Snowden, relating to the classification of these and other persons aiding and abetting reckless behavior which may cause embarrassment to US Presidents, past, present and future, as traitors."

merrily

(45,251 posts)
97. I would not kvell just yet. There's still the Supremes.
Fri May 8, 2015, 01:49 AM
May 2015

Also, this is a statutory decision, not a Constitutional one. If it has the gall, Congress can try to overrule it with an amendment to the Patriot Act or some other legislation.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
109. And metadata is just the tip of the iceberg for these criminals.
Fri May 8, 2015, 03:39 AM
May 2015





Absolutely Snowden is a hero. And metadata is just the tip of the iceberg for these criminals:



The Creepy, Long-Standing Practice of Undersea Cable Tapping
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023277224










merrily

(45,251 posts)
121. Said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I know what Snowden revealed.
Fri May 8, 2015, 04:21 AM
May 2015

If you want to call him a hero or a villian or spin conspiracy theories about him, have some meaningless fun for yourself. My beef on this is with the US government. Trying to make it about Snowden or Greenwald or anything else misses the only important point.

hueymahl

(2,415 posts)
138. I see the usual Snowden bashers and totalitarians are out in force
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:14 AM
May 2015

I will NEVER understand how people can advocate for more intrusion by the government into our private lives.

ZERO comprehension of their position. ZERO ability to reconcile their position with Democratic principles and ideals.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
140. I will NEVER understand the need to call fellow DUers 'authoritarians'.
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:24 AM
May 2015

I see no one advocating for more intrusion by the government. No one. What I do see is a debate about the nuances of Snowden and his document dumps. Even this court ruling does not rule that the collection is illegal, it only rules that the Patriot Act does not cover it and has sent the ruling back to the lower court to decide on the collection itself.

Those are important points that stand on their own regardless of one's position on Snowden.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

merrily

(45,251 posts)
146. Not "does not cover it," but does not authorize it. The agency, part of the Executive Branch,
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:48 AM
May 2015

exceeded the authority granted by Congress.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
147. Fine by me. Such judicial rulings happen nearly every day.
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:52 AM
May 2015

The government's position sometimes wins, sometimes it doesn't.

This still isn't the vindication claimed in the OP, though. The case is still being sent back to the lower court and the legality or illegality of the collection itself has not be ruled on. Or rather, re-ruled on since it's been common practice for a long time.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

merrily

(45,251 posts)
148. Not really a daily occurrence at the SCOTUS. Something being a common practice for a long time is
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:05 AM
May 2015

a separate issue from whether it's been ruled on, so re- ruled on is not correct either.

I agree that the headline may not be correct, but not for the reason you state. Not sure, I don't know that Snowden's position was ever based on lack of statutory authority. I think it was either 4th amendment based or "Americans have a right to know about this." However, I could be wrong about that as I have never focused on Snowden or Greenwald. See Reply 121.

As to why some DUers are called authoritarian: some are. It's not so much that they advocate for greater government involvement than already exists. It's that they find ways to justify almost anything.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
149. This was actually a federal appeals court ruling.
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:12 AM
May 2015

Although the article is written by a 'CNN Supreme Court Reporter'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

hueymahl

(2,415 posts)
152. Some posters are consistently anti-freedom and pro authoritarianism
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:19 AM
May 2015

Many posters have no problem with a steady drumbeat by the government seeking more intrusive intelligence gathering in the name of "national security." I am not calling these misguided posters names (other than just now calling them misguided), just pointing out the positions they take are authoritarian in nature. And registering my surprise, shock, anger and disappointment that fellow democrats would take that kind of position, a position 100% opposite of the vast majority of Democrats and the ACLU.

BTW, thank you for raising your hand so we all know where you stand.

One more thing, you throw in some "facts" in your response to me, claiming, falsely, that the ruling "does not rule that the collection is illegal." That could not be farther from the truth. Here is the exact ruling:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf

And the summary holding:

This appeal concerns the legality of the bulk telephone metadata collection
program (the “telephone metadata program”), under which the National Security
Agency (“NSA”) collects in bulk “on an ongoing daily basis” the metadata
associated with telephone calls made by and to Americans, and aggregates those
metadata into a repository or data bank that can later be queried.  Appellants
challenge the program on statutory and constitutional grounds.  Because we find
that the program exceeds the scope of what Congress has authorized, we vacate
the decision below dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants’
constitutional arguments.


The court goes on to say that the government has been acting illegally under the authorization given to them by the statute:

We conclude that to allow the government to collect phone records only
because they may become relevant to a possible authorized investigation in the
future fails even the permissive “relevance” test.  Just as “the grand jury’s
subpoena power is not unlimited,” United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. 338, 346
(1974), § 215’s power cannot be interpreted in a way that defies any meaningful
limit.  Put another way, we agree with appellants that the government’s
argument is “irreconcilable with the statute’s plain text.”


There were a bunch of other defenses shot down by the court (thank you ACLU). Here is the final holding:

For the foregoing reasons, we conclude that the district court erred in
ruling that § 215 authorizes the telephone metadata collection program, and
instead hold that the telephone metadata program exceeds the scope of what
Congress has authorized and therefore violates § 215.


So yes, what they have been doing is illegal. Nice try though.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
191. States that build surveillance machines
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:08 PM
May 2015

also build propaganda machines.





Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796

Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872

Salon: Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097

Snowden: ‘Training Guide’ for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/

The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242

The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454

Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741

Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351





carolinayellowdog

(3,247 posts)
150. easy to understand "kiss up, kick down"-- authoritarian aggression
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:14 AM
May 2015

is always directed against the powerless in support of the powerful

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
165. Yeah the authoritarians are so easy to spot, they instantly reply to your type of post
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:12 PM
May 2015

being all defensive! It is so sad...but you have to expect it from such myopic people. I bet they don't even realize they do it!

Want to know who are the paid for types and authoritarians? Just type those words and they flock to your post (in defense) like moths to a flame!

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
144. He was already vindicated. But he's still not a hero.
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:45 AM
May 2015

Too many of his decisions were reckless, arrogant, and driven by ideology rather than ethics. Too much of what he revealed didn't expose anything criminal, and yet created diplomatic problems for the United States with no accompanying moral justification.

The NSA is supposed to spy on foreign countries. That's its legitimate and completely legal function. Everything he exposed about that was a criminal act, and the only way I can take him seriously as a moral leader would be if he reaches some deal that lets him repatriate and answer for those aspects in court. Ideally the benefit of his exposing NSA domestic spying would lead to much milder consequences on the other stuff.

But I refuse to make a "freedom fighter" personality cult of a guy who sought asylum in Putinistan. He's someone who got in over his head trying to do the right thing and proved unequal to the task. That's the most charitable interpretation warranted by the facts.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
155. That spin is fascinating. If anything, this is a rejection of Snowden. What the ruling says is...
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:42 AM
May 2015

... "we think the NSA data collection exceeds FISA and the Patriot Act, but we're so worried about the impact that not doing this may have on the efforts to protect America from terrorism that we are not going to put a stop to it. In fact, congress should pass a law saying it's legal, then we will be happy"

----------------------------------------------------------
So basically if you are the President or anyone in the executive branch whose responsibility it is to protect the country against terrorism and are searching for the right balance between privacy and investigative abilities, the appeals court just validated and expressed the same concerns. In fact, Obama's speech a few weeks before Snowden committed his crimes expresses the same concerns.

Snowden has added nothing to the conversation.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
161. Snowden is on the right side of this issue, it doesn't make him my hero.
Fri May 8, 2015, 12:14 PM
May 2015

Ron Paul is on the right side of the issue, doesn't make him my hero either. Ron Paul voted against the Patriot Act, and it's extensions -- good for him.

George W. Bush was on the right side of immigration reform. Doesn't make him my hero. He believed in a rational and functioning guest worker program and a pathway to citizenship for immigrants already in the country.

Rand Paul is on the right side of prison and sentencing reform. Still not my hero.

I don't have to like someone or agree with them on everything to recognize where we might have areas of agreement. Snowden is such a someone for me.

Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Zo Zig

(600 posts)
192. Ellsburg was a Hero
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:25 PM
May 2015

Snowden is the James O'Kefee of Intel BS. Data collection being known or being known to be illegal is not news. Running to China and landing in Russia is questionable at best.
And Greenwald is a ambulance chaser.
Piss away folks.

Zo Zig

(600 posts)
197. Thanks
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:15 PM
May 2015

Ellsburg's opinion is valid given what he knew about Swonden's actions at that time. If he wishes to claim that he is a hero fine, I disagree with the premise that Swonden is a hero.



 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
199. What about the perfectly legitimate foreign intelligence operations?
Sun May 10, 2015, 10:55 AM
May 2015

Snowden has, without a doubt exposed perfectly legal and legitimate foreign intelligence operations. Does he get a pass for that? I think a lot of folks think he should, but the law doesn't work that way.

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