General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSnowden has been vindicated and he is a hero
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/07/politics/nsa-telephone-metadata-illegal-court/Thank you Snowden1
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)The Court did not address the larger question of whether the program is constitutional and sent the case back down to a lower court for further proceedings. It
marym625
(17,997 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)The grudge some have against Snowden is downright legendary.
Just seriously, unbelievable
Forget that other courts have found it unconstitutional.
I will never understand the mindset of some people
Rex
(65,616 posts)Just look at the posts. I remember when some of them could not even admit Snowden has made an impact on the world. They just cannot do it, being a keyboard warrior means never being wrong or admitting to it.
Not worth understanding really, just a sad grudge that now manifests itself into unfocused hatred.
Oy! Snowwald! The evil of the 21st century!
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)It would be hilarious but it isn't
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)We live in a vile, dishonest, magnificently funded propaganda state now.
Those who build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.
Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796
Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872
Salon: Obama confidants spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/
The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097
Snowden: Training Guide for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/
The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367
U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242
The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454
Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741
Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351
merrily
(45,251 posts)d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)I love snowden! The man's a hero in my book!
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Please link me to this information
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Belong to the users of the service. You pump gas from EXXON ,ets, you don't own the pump or company.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But I already linked you to information about the court established for that saying it's unconstitutional
http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-spying-violated-the-constituion-2013-6
And that was back in July 2013.
They had no warrant for much of what they have done. And much of what they did and do with a warrant is still unconstitutional and being fought on many levels. Hence so many places fighting it and refusing to turn over data
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Challenge the Constitution, it is a citizens right to do so.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And courts have found it unconstitutional. The President and many in Congress think it's unconstitutional. There are multiple court cases pending with the argument it's unconstitutional.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)Unconstitutional, then why don't they end it?
marym625
(17,997 posts)These are from a year ago
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?referrer=
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/politics/obama-nsa-changes/
Even before that
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/27/nsa-data-mining-authorised-obama
Senator Obama voted yes on the FISA vote. He then, as President, extended the bush spying done by the NSA and tried to make it legal. Since the Snowden leaks, he has gone from defending the practices of the NSA, to saying that the metadata collection of US citizens calls, emails and texts are wrong. But nothing he has done, so far, has stopped it.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Private property! Legal warrants! It's all good!
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Or EXXON.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)and all of us ownership, of the entities wittingly destroying us, our civilization, and the biosphere. This is a war that Exxon started, and Exxon has chosen to side with mass species extinction and mass human death.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)So, you are responsible for pollution.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)A turner, huh.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)If you purchase these items does it mean you won the company or service you are purchasing. It does not take a link to show you do not own these companies, it is common knowledge. If you want a link I would like to see your ownership in all the sources of your purchases.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Dear lord!
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)I didn't get the memo.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the very kinds of warrants that the American Revolution was fought against, the very kinds of warrants that the Fourth Amendment prohibits. Read it. Honestly.
How many times do I have to retrieve the Fourth Amendment from Google to point out its very clear language?
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment4.html
A warrant that authorizes the NSA to collect all the data from Verizon does not "particularly describ[e] the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The word particularly means specifically.
The Verizon warrant and order authorizing the collection of the metadata is overly broad in its scope. The NSA is picking up all sorts of irrelevant material with the Verizon order that I saw.
I can't imagine a judge corrupt enough to issue such a vague and broad warrant. But apparently the NSA found one.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Likewise when a business is issued a warrant their records can also be inspected. You do not own providers of services such as phone, email, internet, etc. The records belongs to the providing companies. They did not request your records from the providers, but they can request a warrant for the records belonging to provider companies. This does not have anything to do with your home.
How do you think you own the provider companies and their records?
bread_and_roses
(6,335 posts)Maybe you're too young to remember that. In the old days of landlines, phone companies kept records too. However, unless I'm mistaken, a SPECIFIC warrant for a SPECIFIC individual was required for law-enforcement to get those records? Or to tap a phone? An individual, specific warrant issued by a judge who had been presented some sort of evidence that law-enforcement had a reasonable basis to suspect probable illegal activity. Or am I totally off-base?
Same with postal mail. We EXPECTED - reasonably - that our mail was private.
No one thinks they "own" the providers of their internet or cell service, anymore than we used to think we "owned" Ma Bell. (We used to "own" the postal service, and should "own" the telecommunications, but that's another story.)
But we did assume we had a right to privacy in our communications unless there was some compelling reason to permit law-enforcement to intrude on that privacy and it was SPECIFICALLY authorized by a judge.
Cell phone communications or e-mail are not different in essence from land line phone or postal mail communications. The only difference is the method of delivery.
Or maybe I'm dreaming?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)the date the call was made and the length of the call? If you have ever saw this information it is the same exact information in which was delivered after a warrant was issued to the provider for the phone call records. It does not reveal the information during the phone call. Now different agency can and has requested a wire tap in which the information on the phone call is recorded for what ever reason the warrant was issued by the courts.
You may be dreaming if you have never heard of warrants for wire tapping and also for law enforcement agencies to request a warrant to collect personal telephone calls or the information on the calls. This warrant is issued on a specific item. The warrants issued by the FISA to the phone companies, etc to provide phone call records BECAUSE the phone call records belongs to the provider, they do not belong to the person using the service.
randome
(34,845 posts)Good point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)The rumor it was what was said on the calls.
bread_and_roses
(6,335 posts)A warrant issued specifically, for a specific person(s), based on specific evidence presented to a judge. That's rather the point.
You seem to think that "the phone call records belong to the provider" is some major point. It's not.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Just because you use a pump at the gas station and pump fuel into your vehicle does not mean you own the pump, gas station or the refinery.
jeepers
(314 posts)doesn't own what went thru the pipe once the hose has been returned and the bill has been paid, does he?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Conversation went through your phone and unless wiretapping warrants are issued for a specific number it should remain private.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
What is very clear is that no warrant shall be issued without specifically identifying that which searched and what is to be seized. It does not allow blanket searches looking for evidence.
Why do you side with the NSA/CIA Security State over the freedoms and liberties of the people?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)making that up to defend the all powerful Security State that both Bush and Obama have endorsed. For some the security that comes with fascism is so comforting.
PosterChild
(1,307 posts)....the dispute is over interpretation of the Patriot act and the broader telecommunications laws, not the constitution.
The collection of information given to a third party with no reasonable expectation of privacy has been considered constitutional for a long long time. Because it is constitutional, the telecommunications act had to specifically prohibit it. The Patriot act amends the telecommunications act to (presumably) allow it.
So this is properly a dispute about the interpretation of an ammendment to an existing law, not a constitutional dispute.
marym625
(17,997 posts)PosterChild
(1,307 posts)... one court seems to have expressed the opinion that it would "likely" or "possibly" be held unconstitutional.
http://www.thewire.com/politics/2013/12/federal-judge-nsas-almost-orwellian-phone-data-collection-likely-violates-constitution/356207/
That falls far short of actually finding it unconstitutional. And of course the supreme court hasn't weighed in.
This court seemed to have assiduously avoided the constitutional issue.
Of course, I may have missed a ruling - can you cite a source for a court case in which the program was actually ruled unconstitutional ?
merrily
(45,251 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)the section of the Patriot Act by June 1st pertaining to the question of constitutionality, so your point may be moot.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Records will still be legal. I would think the patriot would be in some form, a Republican congress will probably extend in some form.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and that was what most were complaining about.
If the COURT finding it illegal doesn't overcome your objectives, then nothing short of the entire Administration screaming in the streets that it was illegal will quell them.
At some point, a person has to admit they are wrong. First it was the Constitution, then in was the court.
What do you require? A handwritten letter from Obama?
On the face of it, rational people all said what the NSA was doing was wrong. Months of explanations ensued about how it was wrong. You can cling by your fingernails to the cliff of "but it was legal" while the court disagrees (the biggest talking point), but you might want to take the opportunity to accept the hands stretched out to take yours so that you don't have to be so embarrassed about the position you took.
You defended it. You were wrong. I'm wrong occasionally, too.
Clinging to it when every damn thing that the defenders needed to decimate their arguments (a court ruling) is your choice, but it isn't going to change any minds anymore. You don't even have that fig leaf.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
unconstitutional behavior is what has to change
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)records belongs to the providers. They do not belong to the people purchasing the service. This is the difference.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)I can't even imagine that. Paul Revere had 16 kids, a two bedroom home and either his mother or his mother in law lived with him. The kids all slept in the attic. I wonder if any British troops demanded he put them up?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)I'm a proud card-carrying member of the Third Amendment Association. We take our 3rd Amendment rights very seriously.
Our motto: "From Our Cold, Dead Knockers"...
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)they can't pass the stuff they want to pass.
So I too am hoping the Act gets shot down.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)PosterChild
(1,307 posts)...is whether or not an existing law is consistent with the higher principles of the Constitution, not whether a specific act is or isn't a violation of it.
Federal law makes smoking pot illegal. No one would say that smoking pot is unconstitutional.
merrily
(45,251 posts)The other is whether a law, as applied is unconstitutional. "As applied" could be one act.
Federal law makes smoking pot illegal. No one would say that smoking pot is unconstitutional.
This is the legal equivalent of gibberish. The Constitution binds federal government and some portions of the Bill of Rights also bind state and local governments., The Constitution does not bind individuals not acting in any official capacity or under color of law, whether they smoke pot or not. Nothing I do can possibly be unconstitutional. Illegal or legal, yes. Unconstitutional, no.
This is Constitution 101.
PosterChild
(1,307 posts)...convincing. Thanks for the clarification.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Always. They're never to be found when the discussion turns legal except high profile celebrity crimes where easy legal analysis can be found in Time magazine.
But make it about Snowden or the other whistleblowers personally and they're all over those threads like white on rice.
Thanks for providing your perspective.
merrily
(45,251 posts)However, my own work has involved working closely with attorneys. Also, I have read a good number of cases, both in connection with my work and out of curiosity.
I appreciate your kind words.
PosterChild
(1,307 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)That
"A federal appeals court ruled on Thursday that the telephone metadata collection program, under which the National Security Agency gathers up millions of phone records on an ongoing daily basis, is illegal under the Patriot Act."
Tough potatoes?
hehehe
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)I really don't give a damn if the information is collected, it is unimportant to me, doesn't harm me in any way. It is like the governor in Texas running the guard out to watch military maneuvers because the gubermint is coming to get him. I am not paranoid. It is legal in the US under the constitution to go to court and get a warrant and gather the information requested from the owner of the information and ergo, it is legal to gather phone call data.
merrily
(45,251 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Why are you trying to move the goalpost to something the court decision that is the subject of this thread did not even address?
Sending a case back to the lower court for "further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion" is standard language. Courts of appeal don't do their own clean up work. No clue why you think that language bore repeating.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Last edited Thu May 7, 2015, 06:59 PM - Edit history (1)
This isn't the first court that has said what the NSA is doing is illegal and it probably won't be the last. But they just keep doing it
Snowden is a hero. And no matter how much we find out about the wrongs and ills our country is doing, thanks to Edward Snowden, even with the fact he went about this by first going through proper channels and was rebuffed, there will be people who will call him a traitor. Unfortunately, that includes the government
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Which means heads are exploding all over the place...hard to redirect a narrative when the US court system is against it too.
But the people who can't handle that our country can suck in certain areas, or understand that blowing the whistle on unconstitutional acts by a government agency is a good thing, seem to have found a way.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Why keep repeating this lie?
It doesn't matter anyways, right?
Because it's not about Snowden.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)had you bothered to read the article I linked even the White House now concedes that changes need to be made to the NSA metadata collection.
Thank you Snowden, a true American hero!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Snowden didn't disclose the program.
But remember, it's not about Snowden.
LOL.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)The fucking gymnastics.
Geeeeeesus Kriste.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Snowden provided the documented proof that was needed for lawsuits to proceed. And they are proceeding.
delrem
(9,688 posts)We're all survivors of the * years.
Some, like you, liked the fact that it was happening.
Others weren't so amused.
Snowden PROVED IT, even to people like you.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)LOL. Did you not follow the news?
The article from 2006 is quite specific about what exactly was being collected by the NSA.
pay more attention next time.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)heroes Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander that told Congress that they were not collecting meta data on millions of Americans.
And you are correct that this is bigger than Snowden, but he did help open the door. The door that some of you want to keep closed. Denial is the key to happiness for some.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)This program was known in 2006. Nice try though.
Ron and Rand Paul, claimed Snowden revealed it, but he didn't.
You bought it hook, line and sinker.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you. He revealed a sweeping corporate surveillance state unrivaled by any totalitarian government of the past.
He is a national hero and has given us perhaps our only chance to end the subversion of our democratic government by criminals.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023277224
What is the NSA really for? (Corporate power and suppression of dissent)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024215519
"Clear evidence of collusion between TransCanada and the federal government assisting local police to unlawfully monitor and harass political protestors
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023049508
Corporate Espionage and the Secret War Against Citizen Activism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111643982
NSA Spying Not Very Focused on Terrorism: Power, Money and Crushing Dissent Are Real Motives Ops
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023923016
Keiser Report: CIA, NSA & Economic Espionage (E498) (second half with Greg Palast)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017146372
Spooky Business: Corporate Espionage Against Non-profits
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024106205
NSA data could be most useful for connected types on Wall Street.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983519
NSA spied on EU's Anti Trust Chief
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024204596
2011: Wall Street firms spy on protesters with police in tax-funded center
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023286585
OUTRAGEOUS: Our Tax Money Funds Gov Surveillance Center In Lower Manhattan--& Wall St Is Part Of It!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2178769
NSA's Massive New Spy Center to Track Your Emails, Internet Activity, and Phone Calls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101620852
Obama Quietly Signs Abusive Spy Bill He Once Vowed to Eliminate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022104861
Obama repeals Magna Carta, asserting powers our forefathers denied to Kings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101655620
Obama's Memo on Killing Americans Twists 'Imminent Threat' Like Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654919
Obama no better than Bush when it comes to security vs. civil liberties.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022355307
Obama Admin Seeks Permission TO LIE In Response To FOI Requests - Even To The COURTS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2185303
NDAA on trial: Obama Administration fights ban on indefinite detention of Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101748688
Obama administration complicit with private prison industry: President Obama's IncarcerNation
http://www.nationofchange.org/president-obama-s-incarcernation-1335274655
Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022084702
NDAA, signed by Obama, is a direct attack against legitimate protest and dissent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022064803
NSA Whistleblower: All Americans under constant surveillance, all info. stored, no matter the post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002193487; http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021935289
Bipartisan Congress Disgracefully Approves the FISA Warrantless Spying Bill for Five More Years
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022087323
While Public & Media Focused on 2nd Amendment, 5th Amendment Quietly Dismantled
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022390581
How the Obama administration justifies extrajudicial killing of Americans,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022318187
Judge Says Under Law Executive Branch Can Commit Acts That Sure Do Seem Unconstitutional
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022122464
Obama Justice Dept. says wiretap lawsuit should not proceed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014337039
NDAA Lawsuit- Hedges v. Obama, The Last Thin Line of Defense
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022357078
Federal authorities step up efforts to license surveillance drones for law enforcement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022383596
Big Banks and FBI worked together vs Occupy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022095056]
FBI Investigated 'Occupy' As Possible 'Domestic Terrorism' Threat, Internal Documents Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061578
FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring (Updated the OP)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022057064
Public Buses Across Country Quietly Adding Microphones to Record Passenger Conversations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965291
Street artist behind satirical NYPD 'Drone' posters arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021920967
The Obama DOJ urged the Supreme Court's endorsement of strip searches.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521527
Obama Administration Fights to Allow Warrantless GPS Tracking
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1074474
Anonymous to FBI: hey, dudes, maybe you could take a break from...investigating activists....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022145621
Half a billion dollars for drones to spy on Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021876414
From Bradley Manning to Aaron Swartz -- The Government's Inhumane Persecution of Brave Truth Tellers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941
The sight of Army helicopters and the sound of gunfire...on Houston's south side
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276742
Kiriakou and Stuxnet: the danger of the still-escalating Obama whistleblower war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275570
Can the DEA Hide a Surveillance Camera on Your Property?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237059
Social Media and the Stasi
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021888029
Homeland Security Wants to More Than Double Its Predator Drone Fleet Inside the US, Despite Safety/Privacy Invasions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014312823
CIA Behind Bizarre Censorship Incident At Alleged 9/11 Plotters Gitmo Trial
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022280285
I Am Wearing My Conviction As A Badge Of Honor.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275128
Meet the Contractors Turning America's Police Into a Paramilitary Force
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12525281
How Secrecy Corrodes Democracy
http://election.democraticunderground.com/101655009
Obama Quietly Issues Ruling Saying It's Legal For The FBI To Break The Law
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7545687
US Pulls Plug on Iran Cable News (Press TV)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014394770
DHS Watchdog OKs 'Suspicionless' Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022339091
One Of The NSA's Original Whistleblowers Says The Goal Is 'Total Population Control'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025225549
Petition Calls On Obama Stop Intimidation Of Journalists And Whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025509395
U.S. Plunges in Global Press Freedom Rankings As Obama Wages War on Whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024488178
Obama Promises, Including Whistleblower Protections, Disappear
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014549454
President Obama on Whistleblowers: Then and Now -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x536574
Obama's unprecedented war on whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101613051
James Risen: Obama Is 'Greatest Enemy To Press Freedom In A .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025401662
An Assault from Obama's Escalating War on Journalism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025030391
Obama administration to reveal legal justification for killing Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014808253
Obama's Memo on Killing Americans Twists 'Imminent Threat' Like Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654919
NSA Phone Snooping Cannot Be Challenged in Court, Feds Say ..
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1014542562
Democratic establishment unmasked: prime defenders of NSA bulk collection
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10023337088
NSA can store a billion cell phone calls.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023125853
N.S.A. Examines Social Networks of U.S. Citizens (Decision Made In Secret 2010)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014605329
PBS Frontline Exposes (Softly) Bush's and Obama's Authorization and Coverup of NSA Spying
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/eric-zuesse/55928/pbs-frontline-exposes-softly-bushs-and-obamas-authorization-and-coverup-of-nsa-illegal-surveillance-of-
Stopping police militarization = confronting corporate politicians (increased under Obama)
...http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025416709
Federal grants drive the militarization of police departments
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025383806
Why Is President Obama Keeping a Journalist in Prison in Yemen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023300531
James Clapper Calls Journalists "Criminal Accomplices" -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017174990
Rachel Maddow on David Miranda and the White House
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/19/1232435/-Rachel-Maddow-on-David-Miranda-and-the-White-House
Obama Pentagon Employs Bush-Era Propagandists to Screen Embedding Journalists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6380567
Obama the Conservative: Little Hope for Change
http://www.obamatheconservative.com/
Obama: After 911, we tortured some folks.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014860709''
Obama and GOPers Worked Together to Kill Bush Torture Probe
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation
"My Head Exploded When Obama Sanctimoniously Said, 'We Tortured Some Folks'"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025339047
Obama Administration: Further Legitimizing Targeted Assassinations by Drones
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/05/02/further-legitimizing-targeted-assassinations-by-drones/
Washington gets explicit: its 'war on terror' is permanent
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/17/endless-war-on-terror-obama
President Obamas Dragnet (New York Times Editorial)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022960012
Obama Justice Dept. declines to pursue allegations that CIA spied on Senate Intelligence Committee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014843337
Obama DOJ Asks Court to Grant Immunity to George W. Bush For Iraq War
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11781446
NDAA on trial: Obama Administration DOJ fights ban on indefinite detention of Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101748688
DEA and DOJ Struck Deal with Mexico's Most Notorious Drug Cartel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4410768
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-and-the-sinaloa-cartel-2014-1#ixzz2qKWem3w8
Chilling Legal Memo From Obama DOJ Justifies Assassination of US Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654954
DOJ lied to Supreme Court about domestic surveillance
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140514/06214727229/doj-still-trying-to-hide-fact-it-flat-out-lied-to-supreme-court-about-domestic-surveillance.shtml
The Obama administration/DOJ war on whistleblowers and federal unions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586389
DOJ Mysteriously Quits Monsanto Antitrust Investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021911441
Holder/Obama administration seeks to legalize lying in response to Freedom of Information requests.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586380
NSA Phone Spying Cannot Be Challenged in Court, Feds Say ..
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1014542562
The Obama DOJ urged the Supreme Court's endorsement of strip searches for minor traffic stops.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586369
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521527
Holder overlooks DEA abuse of spying information, construction of false evidence trails against Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1168570
DOJ goes all the way to the SC to argue for warrantless GPS tracking on cars
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586375
Obama/Holder War on Journalism coming to a head (Risen)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101699216
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/08/04/obamas-war-journalism-coming-head
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1269998
Obama/Holder more hostile to medical marijuana patients than any president in history
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002650922
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5585204
Feds seek hard prison time for rural Washington pot growers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014801804
Obama DOJ spying on AP reporters, editors re: leaks; other news organizations
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/15/opinion/spying-on-the-associated-press.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014487549
Obama/Holder DOJ drags out Tesoro investigation (Refinery Explosion) for 4 years; no criminal charges vs. Big Energy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025407823
Obama DOJ drags feet at accountability on Deepwater Horizon
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/04/22/doj-sits-on-its-thumbs/
Obama DOJ Allows Bank of America to Deduct $12 Billion of $17 Billion Settlement
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5427407
Exporting Corruption (Asset Forfeiture), DOJ Looks for Lucrative Overseas Partnerships
http://www.forfeiturereform.com/exporting_corruption_doj_looks_for_lucrative_overseas_partnerships
Obama/Holder Leak Investigations Outrageous and Unprecedented
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/05/obama_s_justice_department_holder_s_leak_investigations_are_outrageous_and.html
The DoJ under Obama/Holder refused to prosecute anyone for torture...but Holder had no problem prosecuting a CIA agent who leaked the name of a torturer
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022846735
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/us/former-cia-officer-pleads-guilty-in-leak-case.html?_r=0
Too Big to Jail: Letting criminal banks and bankers off the hook
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024906501
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017201343
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025558689
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014571503
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025503531
Obama Justice Department Sues Telecom for Challenging National Security Letter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014170619
Obama DOJ Argues No Constitutional Right Not to Become an Informant
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025309330
Operation Choke Point- The DOJ using banks to shut down industries they don't like
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024880788
Obama/Holder DOJ Looks To Overturn Ruling That Would Apply Fair Sentencing Act Retroactively
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023334909
How Eric Holder Facilitated the Most Unjust Presidential Pardon in American History
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023253563
Holder and Obama Dishonesty On Mandatory Minimums, the Drug War and Mass Incarceration
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023492539
US & NSA Accused of (Holder defends) Criminal Privacy Violations in Dozens of Nations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023086724
Obama DOJ defends NSA's Associational Tracking Program; No justification even in Patriot Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023455121
US declares socialists Freedom Road a terrorist organization
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2010/09/raid-s29.html
ACLU sues as DOJ ignores surveillance transparency law
https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/aclu-sues-doj-ignores-surveillance-transparency-law
Obama Justice Department has launched twice as many Espionage Act prosecutions against domestic leakers as all previous administrations combined.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941
The only official punished by Obama DOJ for the illegal NSA program was the one who discussed it. The same is now true of torture.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/27/obama-war-on-whistleblowers-purpose
DOJ Drone Memo revealed: Government can overrule 4th amendment
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11784727
Heavy Redactions in DOJ Memo leave doubts on Data Surveillance Program
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101952
Justice Department And NSA Memos Proposing Broader Powers For NSA To Collect Data
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023114180
DOJ's outrageously aggressive prosecution of internet activist, Aaron Swartz
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/al-franken-eric-holder_n_2934627.html
Under Obama DOJ, Bradley Birkenfeld, UBS Whistleblower, Finds Himself in Federal Prison
http://www.cnbc.com//id/41257962
Obama/Holder DOJ sided with Rove in politically motivated prosecution of fr. AL governor, Don Siegelman,
Then, the person who handled the paperwork, got onto the Supreme Court.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Elena-Kagan--Willing-Acco-by-Michael-Collins-100622-971.html
Chilling Legal Memo From Obama DOJ Justifies Assassination of US Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654954
Obama seeks longer PATRIOT Act extension than Republicans (December 2013)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x380450
When it comes to civil liberties, apparently Third Way Democrats are just as bad as Republicans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022101960
merrily
(45,251 posts)GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Now that's just f---ing depressing. Thanks once again for all your links.
red dog 1
(27,647 posts)The one that makes me the maddest is the fourth from last.
"Obama/Holder DOJ sided with Rove in politically motivated prosecution of former Alabama Gov.
Don Siegelman"
merrily
(45,251 posts)Disclosing things that are already public knowledge doesn't seem much of a crime. A breach contract case at most.
stonecutter357
(12,682 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)Q: Why? What did he do?
A: Revealed top secret information!
Q: You mean, the fact that the American people have had their privacy invaded by their own government?
A: THAT is old news, but it was still top secret!
randome
(34,845 posts)It's okay if telecom corporations store the data but not the government? Corporations can search their own records any time they want. Is there any evidence that they are?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)iandhr
(6,852 posts)The reason I am hesitant to call him a hero is due to the fact he is in Moscow. Most likely he is talking with the FSB
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)He's in Moscow because the US revoked his passport and stranded him there in transit. That's the nuance (you do recall that he spent a month in the airport, right?).
LeftInTX
(24,549 posts)And when he gets back, it won't be much fun.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Surprising.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)AND the "left" in the username. The internet sucks.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)TerrapinFlyer
(277 posts).. and place it illegally in a public park, and then cry foul!
randome
(34,845 posts)With Snowden "carryin' a thumbdrive of liberty!" Or whatever that was.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Hopefully he will stand trial for his crimes.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)trying to disclose information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He's a spy against the Untied States and should be tried, convicted, and imprisoned for his high crimes.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)"Dear Hillary - Due to the fact that an anonymous poster sporting your logo on a message board said something I disagree with, about a topic that has nothing to do with you, my respect for your 'H with an arrow' just went down a notch."
Now that's the kind of mature, politically-involved attitude that we need more of.
Jesus Hussein Christ. Is THIS what we're down to? Seriously?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And it is just as mature as calling him a traitor, which is a criminal offense, and declaring him guilty as if he has been judged by a Hillary supporter and found guilty.
And I always thought the H in JC's name stood for Hebrew sense that was what he was.
Hussein is an Arabic name.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)You said nothing about Snowden, about calling him a traitor, or the maturity/immaturity thereof. Your post had nothing to do with whether he was guilty or not, or whether certain people had or had not declared him to be.
Your post was about your "respect going down a notch" for a politician on the basis of someone saying something on a message board that you didn't like while displaying her logo as an avatar.
That's some deep political thinking there - and attempting to change the subject matter of your own post doesn't make it any - uh, yeah - deeper.
LittleGirl
(8,261 posts)made me snicker too.
Miss you Nance. Nice to see a post from you. Have a great day!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Am I not allowed to do that?...or are all comments allowed to stand without challenge?... if so you just violated that rule.
I chose not to reply to the OP because I completely agree that Ed Snowden is a hero and is vindicated...I have said so many times now...right from the beginning.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)What a paranoid, defensive propaganda state we live in now.
How pathetic and base an occupation, this incessant message control...
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... or her *ICON* (!!!!!!!)
They are about someone basing their opinion of any politician on the fact that someone displaying their *ICON* (!!!!!!) on a message board said something they didn't like.
DO try to keep up! It's always advisable to actually follow what the discussion at hand is about before weighing-in with a comment about what it's NOT about.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)I couldn't live with myself, distributing talking points for today's totalitarian neoliberals. And I mean that in utter seriousness. My conscience is worth more than anyone could possibly pay me.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025927255
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... but thanks for the note.
It was really - uhm, interesting.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Best to avoid eye contact.
Number23
(24,544 posts)And that on top of the such concentrated, COMMITTED (!) spamming. The same post in every thread. And the save five folks constantly cheering it on.
merrily
(45,251 posts)than take money to post some of the things I've seen posted at DU."
Told me it would pay me well, but I never even asked how much. No interest.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)So true.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)...you probably shouldn't be voting.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Well it is not, it is for everyone for whatever reason they chose.
But I am not voting for an anonymous person on a message board...but it does show who stands where on issues...birds of a feather flocking together sort of thing.
PosterChild
(1,307 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)is the American government against its citizens and businesses.
Joe Turner
(930 posts)would imprison them or result in their execution. They lay low like snakes and do their devious work undetected. Does that sound like Snowden? Snowden is a hero and history will record him as such. If anyone should be imprisoned it's those in power that have turned our constitution upside down in their grab for raw power.
red dog 1
(27,647 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Not for long I'm afraid so I'll say hi while I can.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)samsingh
(17,571 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)demonstrating in detail that the governments of the USA and Great Britain were spying on their own citizens, and lying about the extent to which they were doing that - outweighs whatever legal particulars the government may have against him.
It's time for the government to drop all charges against him. Allow him to travel freely, and return to the USA or go anywhere he wants, with no more legal constraints.
marym625
(17,997 posts)He also followed protocol to expose this before he ended up handing the information to the press. He was rebuffed at every turn.
Evidently, whistle blower is only good for people who blow the whistle on corporations, and due to bad publicity, the US can't ignore. It's against the government and its illegal acts, then you are a traitor
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)it will also move quickly in vindicating Edward Snowden. I think the compelling public interest in the public learning about the origins of the Vietnam War via the Pentagon Papers (Ellsberg) is pretty similar to the compelling public interest in the public learning about the massive surveillance practiced by the government of Great Britain and the USA on their own citizens since 9/11 (Snowden).
The government's claim in both cases was that the leaks endangered national security. I think the Pentagon Papers Supreme Court opinion (ruling the government could not practice prior restraint to prevent their publication in the New York Times) provides some illumination on that matter. I think some of those same arguments are similar in the Snowden case, i.e., that there was no imminent harm to national security and that the public interest in learning of the information outweighs the risks claimed by the government. Obviously there are differences between the two, but as Ellsberg has said repeatedly, there are also some meaningful similarities.
valerief
(53,235 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)...fleeing the country, letting some national security information be published and finally taking refuge in Russia...all because he kept his fingers crossed and hoped that a judge might someday, somehow agree with him about something that's been known since 2006?
This is the hero you look up to?
At best, he's a misguided narcissist.
And whatever the judicial system decides on NSA-related matters is okay with me and, I think, with most of those who see Snowden in a similar light.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]
rep the dems
(1,689 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Because that validates their need to be a 'winner'. Nothing has changed for Snowden, though. I doubt it ever will.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
delrem
(9,688 posts)And this court decision is a vindication for him, or goes a long way to vindicate him.
Even the most disgusting repug would have to agree with THAT!
Wouldn't you say?
randome
(34,845 posts)Stealing whatever he could get away with and dumping hundreds of thousands of documents into the hands of media corporations and then hoping that something sticks is not by any definition of the word a 'whistleblower'.
In addition, the first thing Snowden and Greenwald led off with was a misinterpretation of PRISM. That was his most pressing complaint about the government -not the metadata- and he got that wrong.
The only reason he started talking about metadata is because nothing else was sticking. "Well, shit, that didn't work. Let's try this, instead."
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)So by your own definition he's a whistleblower.
randome
(34,845 posts)If someone robbed a bank and it was determined in the course of the investigation that the bank president was embezzling money, is the thief a hero?
And this court decision merely states that the Patriot Act does not cover the collection. It does not rule that the collection of business records is unlawful. It never has been so I don't understand why Snowden wanted us to believe differently.
If it needs to stop, I'm fine with that. But being precise about the laws covering business records, it's obvious to me that there is nothing illegal with storing metadata in a black box system that even Carl Bernstein said seems secure.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Are you saying you don't believe Snowden intended to reveal immoral and illegal actions on the part of the gov't?
I tend to think if it had simply been about making money for himself, he wouldn't have revealed squat, simply sold what he took to a foreign power and we'd never have heard a thing about it.
(ETA and, if it was so secure, Snowden couldn't have grabbed anything off to reveal. Obviously it wasn't all that secure after all.)
randome
(34,845 posts)The idea that a minor character with delusions of grandeur was able to steal so much is astonishing and points out complacency on the part of everyone concerned with keeping the data secure.
I do think Snowden wanted something for himself but it wasn't money. He wanted to be seen as something other than a minor IT grunt whose life apparently seemed meaningless to him. At least that's my layman's analysis of his motives.
When he wasn't able to get the reaction he wanted by combing the data for something troubling, only then did he start giving the documents away to media companies.
I just don't see that as 'heroic'. It looks needy and hopeful to me, as if he's holding his fingers crossed each time he makes an appearance.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)as soon as he was out of reach. Government should not have secrets from its citizens. If we're doing things we have to keep 'secret', we're doing it wrong.
randome
(34,845 posts)The 'Classified' stamp is used far too often but it does serve a purpose. Neither you nor I have the right to decide these things. That's why we have courts and that's why we have representative government (in theory).
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)you don't have 'standing' in the courts to challenge when people are spying on you.
The system we have is working for those who want to commit crimes in secret, and 'broken' for the rest of us. As you say, they only represent us 'in theory'. In reality, that secrecy simply helps them continue to oppress the rest of us, stripping us of our rights. Better to abandon secrecy, and simply do everything aboveboard.
randys1
(16,286 posts)our foreign policy, most of it prior to Obama, that we better have some shit secret or the whole damn thing could explode.
But I am against secrets too, and I think it is time to do like the band-aid, just rip it off, let em all out and no more secrets.
Might force us to act appropriate in other's affairs, finally.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)from the masses eating crow.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Closed minds rarely open.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)What is it with people being incapable of comprehending that Snowden did not ONLY leak data on this specific program?
HE GAVE THE CHINESE INTEL ON NSA TARGETS IN CHINA. There was nothing in that that involved "whistleblowing".
If he ever sets foot on US soil again he will rightly spend a very long time in a prison cell.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The NSA is a rogue agency and needs to be shut down. They blatantly lie to Congress and should be completely defunded and every single person in the organization fired.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Good he committed an act of espionage against his own country, what a hero? What the fuck are you thinking? That that will somehow cause the US to shut down all intelligence activities and the NSA will disappear and you'll be happy? What is passing for a thought process in your head that resulted in "Good" being your reaction to Snowden compromising *legitimate* US overseas intelligence activities?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I consider it a maladaptive way of interacting with other human beings.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Or are you one of those "ALL intelligence activities are evil" people who think the US shouldn't have an intelligence capability at all? Because boy, would that work out well...
840high
(17,196 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)totodeinhere
(13,034 posts)Yes, I realize that he committed no crime and a pardon should not be necessary. But just to be on the safe side the president should pardon him to prevent rogue elements from attempting to get him.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Supporters of the program are totally off the wall. That's a personal opinion, but I can't help that.
randome
(34,845 posts)I'd rather be swayed by emotional points of view than by those who claim 'Unconstitutional!' every step of the way. Because the 'Unconstitutional!' crowd sounds uncomfortably like a lot of Conservatives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
"I'd rather be swayed by emotional points of view than by those who claim 'Unconstitutional!' every step of the way."
I neither understand, nor do I want to understand such a sentence.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)and I'll even log off to see the responses, if any, from all the bullies I've put on ignore over the last dozen years:
Can you really look at and listen to this guy and see and hear a villain? Apart from whatever predispositions any of us have to interpret him as good or bad based on whether he reflects badly on people we admire-- what does your gut, or your heart, or your soul, tell you about what kind of person he is?
As a gay man who has been astonished as often as not by revelations of who is and isn't gay, I will confess to very defective gaydar. But in terms of getting an overall reading of whether someone is a hero or villain, an altruist or self-serving tool of evil forces, I think I've had a better record of good-dar and bad-dar.
Snowden makes a VERY unconvincing villain and the more people insist he is one, the more suspect they seem.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?
He isn't a favorite in the highest Dem circuits, including Obama and Hillary, though.
He's out of favor at those elevations.
We can all see the pattern.
eta: one would expect, from any politician advocating change from the status quo, an admission of ameliorating circumstances w.r.t. "whistle blowing" cases. But that doesn't happen. Petraeus gets off, though - of course. So does Cheney.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)please, carry on...
delrem
(9,688 posts)Except for one thing.
Does US law understand the concept of "ameliorating circumstance" as defence in a whistle blowing case?
I would not advise Snowden to waltz into the US, giving himself up to be Emmanuel Goldstein for this nutcase of a country.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)The Prohibition of Information Which Reveals Embarrassing Violations of Civil Rights by Former, Current and Future US Presidents Act of 2015.
"A BILL to recognize torturers as patriots, unlike the actions of Daniel Ellsberg, Glenn Greenwald, Michael Moore and Eric Snowden, relating to the classification of these and other persons aiding and abetting reckless behavior which may cause embarrassment to US Presidents, past, present and future, as traitors."
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)He should get on the next one.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Also, this is a statutory decision, not a Constitutional one. If it has the gall, Congress can try to overrule it with an amendment to the Patriot Act or some other legislation.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)"We need to know everything about them!!!"
-- NSA Memo
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Enough is enough.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Absolutely Snowden is a hero. And metadata is just the tip of the iceberg for these criminals:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023277224
merrily
(45,251 posts)If you want to call him a hero or a villian or spin conspiracy theories about him, have some meaningless fun for yourself. My beef on this is with the US government. Trying to make it about Snowden or Greenwald or anything else misses the only important point.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Ads embedded in ads embedded in more ads.
hueymahl
(2,415 posts)I will NEVER understand how people can advocate for more intrusion by the government into our private lives.
ZERO comprehension of their position. ZERO ability to reconcile their position with Democratic principles and ideals.
randome
(34,845 posts)I see no one advocating for more intrusion by the government. No one. What I do see is a debate about the nuances of Snowden and his document dumps. Even this court ruling does not rule that the collection is illegal, it only rules that the Patriot Act does not cover it and has sent the ruling back to the lower court to decide on the collection itself.
Those are important points that stand on their own regardless of one's position on Snowden.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
merrily
(45,251 posts)exceeded the authority granted by Congress.
randome
(34,845 posts)The government's position sometimes wins, sometimes it doesn't.
This still isn't the vindication claimed in the OP, though. The case is still being sent back to the lower court and the legality or illegality of the collection itself has not be ruled on. Or rather, re-ruled on since it's been common practice for a long time.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
merrily
(45,251 posts)a separate issue from whether it's been ruled on, so re- ruled on is not correct either.
I agree that the headline may not be correct, but not for the reason you state. Not sure, I don't know that Snowden's position was ever based on lack of statutory authority. I think it was either 4th amendment based or "Americans have a right to know about this." However, I could be wrong about that as I have never focused on Snowden or Greenwald. See Reply 121.
As to why some DUers are called authoritarian: some are. It's not so much that they advocate for greater government involvement than already exists. It's that they find ways to justify almost anything.
randome
(34,845 posts)Although the article is written by a 'CNN Supreme Court Reporter'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
hueymahl
(2,415 posts)Many posters have no problem with a steady drumbeat by the government seeking more intrusive intelligence gathering in the name of "national security." I am not calling these misguided posters names (other than just now calling them misguided), just pointing out the positions they take are authoritarian in nature. And registering my surprise, shock, anger and disappointment that fellow democrats would take that kind of position, a position 100% opposite of the vast majority of Democrats and the ACLU.
BTW, thank you for raising your hand so we all know where you stand.
One more thing, you throw in some "facts" in your response to me, claiming, falsely, that the ruling "does not rule that the collection is illegal." That could not be farther from the truth. Here is the exact ruling:
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf
And the summary holding:
program (the telephone metadata program), under which the National Security
Agency (NSA) collects in bulk on an ongoing daily basis the metadata
associated with telephone calls made by and to Americans, and aggregates those
metadata into a repository or data bank that can later be queried. Appellants
challenge the program on statutory and constitutional grounds. Because we find
that the program exceeds the scope of what Congress has authorized, we vacate
the decision below dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants
constitutional arguments.
The court goes on to say that the government has been acting illegally under the authorization given to them by the statute:
because they may become relevant to a possible authorized investigation in the
future fails even the permissive relevance test. Just as the grand jurys
subpoena power is not unlimited, United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. 338, 346
(1974), § 215s power cannot be interpreted in a way that defies any meaningful
limit. Put another way, we agree with appellants that the governments
argument is irreconcilable with the statutes plain text.
There were a bunch of other defenses shot down by the court (thank you ACLU). Here is the final holding:
ruling that § 215 authorizes the telephone metadata collection program, and
instead hold that the telephone metadata program exceeds the scope of what
Congress has authorized and therefore violates § 215.
So yes, what they have been doing is illegal. Nice try though.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)also build propaganda machines.
Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796
Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872
Salon: Obama confidants spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/
The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097
Snowden: Training Guide for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/
The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367
U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242
The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454
Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741
Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)is always directed against the powerless in support of the powerful
Rex
(65,616 posts)being all defensive! It is so sad...but you have to expect it from such myopic people. I bet they don't even realize they do it!
Want to know who are the paid for types and authoritarians? Just type those words and they flock to your post (in defense) like moths to a flame!
navarth
(5,927 posts)True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)Too many of his decisions were reckless, arrogant, and driven by ideology rather than ethics. Too much of what he revealed didn't expose anything criminal, and yet created diplomatic problems for the United States with no accompanying moral justification.
The NSA is supposed to spy on foreign countries. That's its legitimate and completely legal function. Everything he exposed about that was a criminal act, and the only way I can take him seriously as a moral leader would be if he reaches some deal that lets him repatriate and answer for those aspects in court. Ideally the benefit of his exposing NSA domestic spying would lead to much milder consequences on the other stuff.
But I refuse to make a "freedom fighter" personality cult of a guy who sought asylum in Putinistan. He's someone who got in over his head trying to do the right thing and proved unequal to the task. That's the most charitable interpretation warranted by the facts.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)... "we think the NSA data collection exceeds FISA and the Patriot Act, but we're so worried about the impact that not doing this may have on the efforts to protect America from terrorism that we are not going to put a stop to it. In fact, congress should pass a law saying it's legal, then we will be happy"
----------------------------------------------------------
So basically if you are the President or anyone in the executive branch whose responsibility it is to protect the country against terrorism and are searching for the right balance between privacy and investigative abilities, the appeals court just validated and expressed the same concerns. In fact, Obama's speech a few weeks before Snowden committed his crimes expresses the same concerns.
Snowden has added nothing to the conversation.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Ron Paul is on the right side of the issue, doesn't make him my hero either. Ron Paul voted against the Patriot Act, and it's extensions -- good for him.
George W. Bush was on the right side of immigration reform. Doesn't make him my hero. He believed in a rational and functioning guest worker program and a pathway to citizenship for immigrants already in the country.
Rand Paul is on the right side of prison and sentencing reform. Still not my hero.
I don't have to like someone or agree with them on everything to recognize where we might have areas of agreement. Snowden is such a someone for me.
Damansarajaya
(625 posts)How can revealing criminal acts be a crime?
Mira
(22,378 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)red dog 1
(27,647 posts)Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
wolfie001
(2,131 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Zo Zig
(600 posts)Snowden is the James O'Kefee of Intel BS. Data collection being known or being known to be illegal is not news. Running to China and landing in Russia is questionable at best.
And Greenwald is a ambulance chaser.
Piss away folks.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)By some guy named Ellsberg.
Ellsburg's opinion is valid given what he knew about Swonden's actions at that time. If he wishes to claim that he is a hero fine, I disagree with the premise that Swonden is a hero.
Not water
(30 posts)But what would Ellsberg know about these things!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-daniel-ellsberg-whistleblower-history_n_3413545.html
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Snowden has, without a doubt exposed perfectly legal and legitimate foreign intelligence operations. Does he get a pass for that? I think a lot of folks think he should, but the law doesn't work that way.