A British Tory is nothing like an American conservative......

[BooScout]

Please bear that in mind when discussing current British Politics.

The Tories support a nationalized health care system.....but a lot of them would like to farm out bits and pieces to private companies.....that does not mean they are in favor of getting rid of health care for all.

The Tories support a woman's right to choose.

The Tories don't think that owning a gun is a god given right.

The Tories don't give a rats ass whether you believe in god or not.

The current British Tory Party is actually closer in comparison to the American Democratic Party. The Labour Party is further left than the American Democrats.

America's idea of what a conservative is and what a liberal is......is nothing like what the current state of conservativesand liberals in the UK is like. Maggie Thatcher's Tory party has been gone a while now.

[Dawson Leery]

1. Cameron is certainly no bigot,

unlike the 22+ jackals running for the Republican Presidential nomination.

[shenmue]

2. He's good on equality, I'll give him that

[starroute]

3. They're not social conservatives -- but they're like the GOP in hating the poor

And they're set on doing everything they can to make their lives more miserable.

[brentspeak]

4. "The Labour Party is further left than the American Democrats."

Explain, then, Tony Blair's continuing influence over Labour.

Meanwhile, a 20-year-old SNP candidate just unseated Labour MP Douglass Alexander. Apparently, the Scots aren't all that happy with Labour's venture into neoliberalism.

[REP]

5. New Labour is further left than the Democratic Party

New Labour, however, is much less left than the old Labour Party.

[T_i_B]

6. The Tories are trying to privatise the NHS by stealth

They are also very hostile towards the poorest and vulnerable.

[GCP]

7. Yes

They aren't called the "Nasty Party" for nothing. They'll go after ever more swingeing benefit cuts for the disabled and the poorest in society, meanwhile farming off more and more of the NHS to their friends in the City.

[LeftishBrit]

9. Too true

[betterdemsonly]

14. see the you british tories are like the republicans.

just without fundamentalism. You still demonize the poor with personal anecdotes that can't be confirmed since we don't know you.

All the stereotypes you have mentioned are classic Murdoch tropes, like Reagan's welfare queens, which were also Murdoch tropes.

While you may not be a biblical literalist your gripe against single mothers, comes from the same stream of patriarchal sexism.

[Starry Messenger]

21. So is the OP, evidently.

[joeybee12]

24. Yup, little by little...

So far their "experiment" has been a disaster, which doesn't mean they'll stop.

[LeftishBrit]

8. Only partly true

The current Tory LEADER is more-or-less as you describe.

But many of the people who work with him, or rather, do his work for him (he is bone-idle) are much more like Thatcherites/Republicans.


'The Tories support a nationalized health care system.....but a lot of them would like to farm out bits and pieces to private companies.....that does not mean they are in favor of getting rid of health care for all.'

A more accurate description is that they know that they wouldn't be able to get away with totally abolishing the NHS. Some of them would if they could (do you remember Daniel 'The NHS is a 60 year mistake' Hannan trying to persuade you not to introduce universal healthcare); rather more don't care one way or the other so long as their pals in the insurance companies can get some profit out of it.

'The Tories support a woman's right to choose.'

David Cameron does. However, there are many Tory MPs (and a few Labour ones) who are strongly in favour of restricting abortion rights.

'The Tories don't think that owning a gun is a god given right.'

You are right there, but gun culture is simply not big in the UK.

'The Tories don't give a rats ass whether you believe in god or not.'

On the whole that's true (they tend to be more focused on getting you to believe in Mammon), but there are many exceptions. We do have a significant religious right in this country, even if quite a bit smaller than yours. It should also be noted that most of the Northern Ireland DUP MPs - who could help to prop up the next government - are VERY religious-right and anti-abortion, etc.

The Tories do have very economically right-wing views, which range from just automatically favouring policies that lower taxes for the wealthy, and fuck the poor, they don't count (well they don't vote Tory, and certainly can't donate to the Tories) to in some cases much worse. By much worse, I mean moral crusade against poor people, whom many Tories consider to be poor as a result of behavioural problems and see it as really a favour to them to practice 'tough love' and reduce benefits. Well, I don't know how many have that precise attitude, though certainly our right-wing media does; but the one in power on such matters - Iain Duncan-Smith, our Secretary of Work and Pensions - certainly has it to a very extreme degree!

Let all Americans who think that all British Tories are really Dems at heart, or that Thatcherism died with or before Thatcher, ponder the following: Iain Duncan-Smith - a former Tory leader and now the politician with greatest direct responsibility for the fate of poor, disabled, unemployed, or low-paid people -once co-authored an article on 'Compassionate Conservativism' with RICK SANTORUM!!!!


'The Labour Party is further left than the American Democrats.'

In general yes, but look at dear Tony!


P.S. AAAAARRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!! (referring to our election, not your post).

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. Tony Blair was further left than most Democrats.

Yes, he was wrong on Iraq, but I think that in general he doesn't get nearly enough credit for the public services, gay rights, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Macpherson, etc.

I'd rate him as the UK's best prime minister since Atlee, although admittedly that's mostly a commentary on the competition.

Just a shame about Iraq...

[LeftishBrit]

11. I think he was bad on the public services too.

Super-managerialism; continuing and extending the internal market in the NHS; cutting benefits for people with disabilities; keeping Chris Woodhead in charge of OFSTED; introducing tuition fees; I could go on and on and sometimes do!

I will give him three things: (1) Northern Ireland (though it wasn't just him); (2) the minimum wage; (3) gay rights; but I would definitely rate him below Harold Wilson and even Callaghan and yes, even Gordon Brown.

[mr blur]

12. Well, definitely below Wilson, not sure about Callaghan.

Poor Gordon never had much of a chance, really.

I've always thought that Cameron and Obama are just about in the same place.

[BooScout]

15. I agree.....

I didn't mean the Tories were any great thing when I wrote my OP....mostly I was frustrated with continued posts across the board by Americans saying how bad the Tories were...The point of the OP was to point out that they are not near as bad as Americans perceive them to be when compared to the GOP. Having lived under both systems....I'll take living under the Tories rather than dealing with right wing religious nuts of the Republicans any day of the century.

What has happened with British politics over night has been stunning. I really think the SNP is going to find that instead of greatly increasing their power by kicking every Labour candidate to the curb, they have instead stymied their power. Only time is going to tell whether I am right or wrong.

But the conservatives have the majority and they are a lot stronger today than they were yesterday. It's a whole new game now.

I am totally frustrated with Labour, but I can't say I'm surprised. They pretty much sealed their fate when they put Milliband in charge 5 years ago. When he was elected leader of Labour I said then it was a big mistake......looks like I was right. They have got to elect a leader that can actually lead rather than run around with a goofy smirk on his face every time he or she steps forward to challenge the Tories. With the rise of the SNP, I'm not sure they are going to be able to maneuver themselves into any position of strength for a long time.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. When I first visited the UK, Edward Heath was Prime Minister. So what you are selling, I'm not

buying. I'll offer quotes, first John Major:
"If higher unemployment is the price we have to pay in order to bring inflation down, then it is a price worth paying."

Boris Johnson: “If gay marriage was OK … then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men; or indeed three men and a dog.”

David Jones, Tory MP: "“I regard marriage as an institution that has developed over many centuries, essentially for the provision of a warm and safe environment for the upbringing of children, which is clearly something that two same-sex partners can’t do.”


So to repeat, your theory gets no support from the facts nor custom from me.

[JaneyVee]

17. A Tory is closer to moderate Republican, UKIP is basically US Cons.

[roamer65]

18. I think Cameron soon will want the old parliament back.

The Cons are a regional English party now, along with Labour. The SNP will constantly remind them of that fact with 56 MP's in parliament.

The UK is starting to resemble Canada. The breaking point for England and Scotland just may be the EU referendum.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Another important example of the right-wingness of the Tories: immigration

Compared to the Democrats, they are far less sympathetic to undocumented immigrants. The idea of a 'Dream' act would never fly with them in a million years. They are trying to get EU rules changed so they can stop the free movement of people into the UK for work.

[True Blue Door]

20. This misses the fundamental nature of conservatism.

They don't care what their specific positions are as long as they pull society in the wrong direction.

If America were overwhelmingly socialists, Republicans would call themselves "reform socialists" and say that taxes should be modestly lower than 95%.

That's their game. They're nihilistic - they have no specific policy prescriptions for the country. Just directions they want to pull it in, and they would pull it infinitely in that direction straight off a cliff if given a chance. Rich people's taxes are never low enough for them, average people are never degraded enough for them, society is never authoritarian enough for them, etc.

So yes, the Tories are the same as the Republicans. They believe exactly the same shit in their hearts (power uber alles). They just deal with a more progressive, more politically engaged, and numerically smaller population.

[malaise]

22. The Tories support NHS???

Are you sure about that?
Cameron and his tools competed with UKIP for the jingoism and xenophobia.
Sadly Labour was destroyed by Blair. Further I was naive to believe the current UK would elect a party with a Jewish leader

[T_i_B]

25. Although there was a hint of anti-semitism in some of the Tabloid attacks on Miliband

The real problem was that Ed Miliband allowed Labour to drift and didn't inspire confidence in him as a potential future PM.

[malaise]

35. True - most of the once progressive parties these days are wishy washy on

issues that matter to people.
Neither fish nor fowl doesn't work so well.

[Nye Bevan]

27. Margaret Thatcher was in office from 1979 to 1990.

There was an NHS when she came to power and there was an NHS when she left office. And she had way more power over the UK than any US president could ever hope to have over the US. And she was certainly further to the right than Cameron.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Perfect time to quote the historical Nye Bevan:

"That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were."

[Nye Bevan]

32. I can't help wondering what he would have thought of Tony Blair.

The spinning corpse in his grave could probably have powered the whole of Wales.

[kentuck]

23. They also support higher taxes on the wealthy...

I heard.

[Nye Bevan]

28. The top tax rate is 45%. Labour wants to raise it to 50%, Tories do not.

So not a huge difference there. Labour also wants to impose extra property taxes on expensive homes (which would actually be reasonable as real estate taxes in the UK are exceptionally low).

[Jackpine Radical]

26. They're OK on the "social issues,"

which is to say, they don't give a rat's ass about anything that their corporate masters don't give a rat's ass about.

That would include those "social issues."

As for privatizing "bits & pieces," that translates into privatizing what they thingk they can get away with. They can't go for th whole pie at once or they would face not just electoral defeat, but the proverbial torches & pitchforks.

It's kinda like saying that the Republicans aren't really against legal abortion because they're after only "bits & pieces" of the legality.

[Nye Bevan]

29. Tony Blair actually pioneered those "privatizations of bits and pieces":

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_finance_initiative

so that's kind of a tricky issue for Labour to campaign on.

[Jackpine Radical]

33. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA.

Their Labour Party is about as sold-out as a whole bunch of our Dems.

And that has a lot to do with why they lost. "Give the people a choice between a real Tory and a fake Tory…"

[malaise]

36. Sadly you're correct

Third way is the way to defeat - Blair started this shite

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Except that many of them are hugely anti gay and all are wildly anti immigrant and immigration

If you think people who say "“If gay marriage was OK … then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men; or indeed three men and a dog" are 'OK on the social issues' then I don't know what to say. I don't think that's OK at all.

[Jackpine Radical]

34. A question that has always perplexed me--

Can dogs and turtles give consent?