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MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:38 PM May 2015

The Gish Gallop of the HRC bashers

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by TexasTowelie (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Fri May 8, 2015, 08:59 PM - Edit history (1)

For those not familiar with the Gish Gallop: "The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own. They may be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments that are specifically designed to be brief, but take a long time to unravel. Thus, galloping is frequently used in timed debates (especially by creationists) to overwhelm one's opponent."

It's a technique primarily used by the right, for lack of an actual argument. But I have seen the dreaded technique being used by the Anti-HRC'ers as well. Obviously the hope is that no one will actually wade through all of the links they produce, so the reader, by default, will just assume the links are valid arguments. That's the Gish Gallopers hope, anyway.

Let's unpack one of these posts (copied and pasted, with my very brief comment under each).

Edited to add: Here is the link to the original wall of blue links Gish Gallop that I am responding to:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114


The Clinton Dynasty's Horrific Legacy: More Drug War, More Prisons
http://www.alternet.org/drugs/clinton-dynasty-horrific-legacy-more-drug-war-more-prisons


This article is about Bill Clinton, and has nothing to do with HRC.

Hillary Clinton's leading role in drafting the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101667554


HRC did not "draft" the TPP, and the linked article says nothing of the kind. It talks about her role in opening foreign markets to American businesses. That is one of the roles of the SoS, whoever it happens to be at the time.

Hillary's TPP will mean a pay cut for 90 percent of American workers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023661805


It's not "Hillary's TPP." Again, her involvement is one of the roles of the SoS, whoever it happens to be at the time. Why try to pretend otherwise?

Hillary pushes for increases in H1B visas and outsourcing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6405669


HB1 Visas are for allowing workers to come HERE and work. Not to outsource jobs overseas. But hey, thanks for the right wing, Lou Dobbs take on it. Gotta love when liberals adopt right wing talking points.

Hillary Clinton and Trade Deals: That “Giant Sucking Sound”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101761


She has spoken out against free trade agreements many times since entering politics as a candidate. And her voting record on trade is identical to Sanders.

Hillary Clinton Cheerleads for Biotech and GMOs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112772326


Believe it or not, that whole screed linked in that article contains a single quote from HRC: “Maybe there’s a way of getting a representative group of actors at the table” to discuss how the federal government could help the Biotech industry with “insurance against risk,” she said.

Apparently she is not a great "cheerleader."

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519


Dead link in the DU post. I'm thinking people should check that before including it in a gish gallop. You never know when someone will check it. I'm going to guess this is the same link that is repeated at least 3 times in this list. The Gish Gallop needs a volume of posts, even if you have to repeat them to get the volume.

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645


This is an op-ed that wonders if the neo-cons will try to ally with HRC. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898


This is an op-ed in the Chi Tribune by a guy who also writes for the right wing nut job site, Townhall. More republican talking points.

More from Hillary Clinton's State Department: The fascistic TISA (Trade in Services Agreement)
http://m.thenation.com/blog/180572-grassroots-labor-uprising-your-bank

HRC doesn't own the State Department. There is not a single solitary word about HRC in the linked article.

How Hillary Clinton's State Department sold fracking to the world
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251376647

"Under her leadership, the State Department worked closely with energy companies to spread fracking around the globe—part of a broader push to fight climate change, boost global energy supply, and undercut the power of adversaries such as Russia that use their energy resources as a cudgel."

Wow, how nefarious of her.

Hillary Clinton Sides with NSA over Snowden Disclosures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101695441

This one is true. Wow, 1 out of 12 ain't bad?

On the NSA, Hillary Clinton Is Either a Fool or a Liar
http://m.thenation.com/article/180564-nsa-hillary-clinton-either-fool-or-liar


The op-ed offers no support of the accusation that HRC is either "a fool or a liar" - it is basically the same as the above. Pissed off because she supports the NSA over Snowden. I disagree with her on that just like the gish galloper, apparently. 2 out of 13!

Corporate Warfare: Hillary Clinton admits role in Honduran coup aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29


From the linked article - “In the subsequent days [after the coup] I spoke with my counterparts around the hemisphere, including Secretary [Patricia] Espinosa in Mexico,” Clinton writes. “We strategized on a plan to restore order in Honduras and ensure that free and fair elections could be held quickly and legitimately, which would render the question of Zelaya moot.” Again, how nefarious of her! Not sure how the Corporate Warfare link comes in. But throwing in stuff like that is what gish gallopers do.

The Bill and Hillary Clinton Money Machine Taps Corporate Cash
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025189257

So apparently the gish galloper wants Democrats to simply roll over and die instead of try to match the republican presidential Koch brothers money machine?

Hillary's Privatization Plan: TISA kept more secret than the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014829628


Again, not “Hillary’s plan” and the linked article does not even mention her.

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136


From our right wing friends at Yahoo corporate news. In any case, this was about a conflict initiated by Hamas. I personally think both Hamas and BiBi are terrorists. In other instances she has said critical things about Israel too. So this is a slanted distortion of her overall views, which almost exactly mirror those of Sanders. (The Gish Galloper is a strong Sanders supporter).

Some of Hillary Clinton's statements on Social Security.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024379279


This one actually links to her voting record and statements on the issue of SS. Good! Nothing damming there, but then it devolves into Bill’s thoughts on the issue, as if HRC is incapable of having her own thoughts and opinions on issues.

Hillary Clinton's GOLDMAN SACHS PROBLEM.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025049343

This one seems to take issue with the fact that the Clinton Foundation used a donated auditorium space owned by Goldman for a meeting. Classic Gish Gallop bullshit.

Ring of Fire: Hillary Clinton - The Perfect Republican Candidate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209285


This is a video by someone you never heard of that agrees with the Gish Galloper. The basic premise is someone who used to work for HRC got a job with some company in Canada that supports the Keystone Pipeline. And that’s all you got here.

How Americans Need Answers From Hillary Clinton On TPP, KXL, Wall St & More
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017181611


This one is a video of someone you never heard of and their own Gish Gallop screed. The takeaway I got is the this guy isn’t any more familiar with her actual statements and voting record than most of the HRC bashers.

Hillary Clinton Left Out By Liberal Donor Club
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025809071


Ah, Politico – another excellent right wing media source. The article is actually about liberal donors meeting with Warren and Biden. Here is what the organizer said about the canard Politico was pushing: “He dismissed any effort to read into the appearances by Warren and Biden but not Clinton. “None of this has to do with presidential politics, and none of the people you asked about are declared presidential candidates,” he said Wednesday. “Once we have an actual contest, if we do have one, the DA will have to thread carefully through it, since we are scrupulously neutral, and people like you are always looking for signs.”



Ah, Politico again. Another OP-ed piece. The author quotes Clinton saying: ““Don’t let anyone tell you that it’s corporations and businesses that create jobs,” Clinton said, erroneously echoing a meme Warren made famous during an August 2011 speech at a home in Andover, Massachusetts. “You know that old theory, trickle-down economics? That has been tried, that has failed. It has failed rather spectacularly.”

And then spends the rest of the piece trying to convince us she didn’t mean it.



Another OP-Ed. No quotes by Hillary, just lots of opinion and innuendo – most featuring the word “apparently” – which translates to “I have nothing to back this up, but I am going to say it anyway”. Also wrong about various Iraq war funding votes HRC took as a senator. At this point, I have to ask…. Why do gish gallopers think OP-Eds prove anything? They aren’t facts – they are opinions.

Interactive graphic of Hillary Clinton's connections to the Forbes top 400 (Follow link in post)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025824981#post9


OMG – I never would have thought someone who has worked in the highest level of government for DECADES would know powerful people. Seriously? This may be the most ridiculous link in the list.

The Warmongering Record of Hillary Clinton "I urged him to bomb..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026219783


Okay, we will put the Gish Galloper down for being in favor of the genocide that was occurring in Yugoslavia. Apparently we should not have stopped that. Also, Bill was president then, not Hillary.

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136

This is a repeat. See above. I guess it reappears for effect.

Hillary defends Israel on Gaza carpet bombing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025274041

Ah, Politico again. Same story as above - repeated 3 times in this list (so far). But remember, Gish Gallop is about VOLUME!

Hillary tacks right of Obama on foreign policy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024707589


This one comes from the right wing WSJ. Can’t read the story because I do not have a subscription. I don’t subscribe to right wing news sites. Apparently Gish gallopers do.

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519


This is another video by someone you never heard of (same guy you never heard of above) going on his own gish gallop screed. It’s not actually about the Atlantic Interview as suggested above, unless you mean someone you never heard of videoing himself as he comments on the interview and lots of other stuff.

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645


This is a repeat of the OP Ed above wondering if the “neocons are getting ready to ally with Clinton.” Again, the gish gallop is about the sheer number of things you can throw into the kitchen sink. And there is no real expectation anyone will actually read it, or click through on the links. So repeating them even in the same post is a tried and true gish gallop technique

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898

Another dupe from above. This is the guy who writes for the right wing nutjob site, Townhall.com (as noted above)

Hillary Clinton Praises George W. Bush and the Art of Compromise
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026394878


She’s talking about how she got $20 billion in funding from Bush to address the 9/11 disaster in NYC. How horrible, huh?

Hillary Clinton's role in right-wing Honduran coup and aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29

Another exact dupe from above. This person is an expert Gish Galloper!

Hillary Clinton's Horrifying Iraq War Vote Still Matters.
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/hillary-clintons-iraq-war-vote-still-matters-9737

An OP-Ed about how HRC’s Iraq war vote matters. Yes, of course it does. She has addressed it many times over the past 7-8 years.

Secret recordings show US military and a Democratic congressman distrusted Hillary Clinton on Libya (lying, manipulating intelligence)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026157088


Fox News video. LOL! More right wing talking points.

Hillary Clinton Blasts ‘Unfair’ World Reaction Over Gaza, Cites Anti-Semitism As Factor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025364869


Another article about the Hamas rocket attacks in 2014 and HRC condemning them. I am losing count on how many times this EXACT same issue has been added to this list.

Obama didn't go as far as Hillary now says she wanted to go in smashing Syria
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251375376


This one links to an Op-Ed at a vanity blog about Paul Wolfowitz and then devolves into a screed about Syria, and then BENGHAZI!!!! It’s quite the rant. Doesn’t make much sense, but it’s an amazing rant.

Hand in Hand With Kissinger: A Review of Hillary Clinton’s Review
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016102317


This pertains to a book review on Kissinger’s book that HRC did for the Washington Post. The gist seems to be we are facing the same or similar problems in the world today as Kissinger writes about. I don’t know what the “Hand in Hand” comment means in the Gish Gallopers description. She points out that the Obama administration and Nixon administrations did have policy differences. Here is a representative sample of the book review text: “In his new book, “World Order,” Henry Kissinger explains the historic scope of this challenge. His analysis, despite some differences over specific policies, largely fits with the broad strategy behind the Obama administration’s effort over the past six years to build a global architecture of security and cooperation for the 21st century.”

Hillary Clinton Serves Us KISSINGER KOOL-AID
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025504036


As above. Different Op-Ed but same story as above – her book review of the Kissinger book. Which can be read here, by the way: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-reviews-henry-kissingers-world-order/2014/09/04/b280c654-31ea-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

MJ - Hillary Clinton Praises a Guy With Lots of Blood on His Hands
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025493748


As above. Third article on the nerve of HRC to write a book review on Kissinger’s book. Gotta wear that one out, apparently.

And that, my friends, is today's lesson on the "Gish Gallop" and why you should not fall for it. Happy Friday!
159 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Gish Gallop of the HRC bashers (Original Post) MaggieD May 2015 OP
Bookmarked. Big K & R and Thank You. misterhighwasted May 2015 #1
Are you demonstrating how to "Gish Gallop"? Seems to me that's what you rhett o rick May 2015 #71
+1000 nt Mojorabbit May 2015 #91
+1 BOOM. merrily May 2015 #155
Have to take issue with your take on H1B visas. They do come here to work, at extremely low $$$ peacebird May 2015 #2
You missed the point. Completely and entirely. Buzz Clik May 2015 #7
I understand the concerns in the OP, but on this one item - H1B visas - Hillary supports them peacebird May 2015 #19
My state's UI division tracks wages for skilled H1B workers. PatrickforO May 2015 #43
The very presence of the H1B workers suppresses wages. Romulox May 2015 #61
I bookmarked this thread as a reference, but I doubt Agnosticsherbet May 2015 #3
Wonderful post. JaneyVee May 2015 #4
And a lot of Alex Jones conspiracy type stuff too. Nt boston bean May 2015 #12
+1 Buzz Clik May 2015 #5
The 2nd article you posted explicitly says HRC helped draft the TPP think May 2015 #6
There was a point that was pitched .... and a WHIFF!!!! Buzz Clik May 2015 #8
From above: "HRC did not "draft" the TPP, and the linked article says nothing of the kind." think May 2015 #11
Steeeerike TWO!!! Buzz Clik May 2015 #13
Feel free to elaborate. think May 2015 #17
one down Enrique May 2015 #25
The third link goes to a thread which is not about HRC but one person does link to the previous think May 2015 #9
Except she didn't MaggieD May 2015 #14
Excellent. Thank you for wading through the bs. boston bean May 2015 #10
speaking of gish gallup.... m-lekktor May 2015 #15
Okay, tell us what she had to do with the issue MaggieD May 2015 #18
You might have a point if you could point out where she refuted what he did. nm rhett o rick May 2015 #57
Why is she obigated to do that? MaggieD May 2015 #62
As a candidate for President she has an obligation to tell the voters where she stands on rhett o rick May 2015 #89
What's that got to do with Bill? MaggieD May 2015 #90
I didn't say a thing about Bill. I would love to go over issues. How does she stand on Fracking?nm rhett o rick May 2015 #134
Damn good answer, Rhett nikto May 2015 #122
K & R Iliyah May 2015 #16
Thanks for both the definition of gish gallop Cal Carpenter May 2015 #20
You'd understand it if you were a DEMOCRAT. n/t winter is coming May 2015 #21
exactly Enrique May 2015 #22
Ah, the links are not mine MaggieD May 2015 #24
I started Enrique May 2015 #28
For what it's worth think May 2015 #30
omg PRECISELY! FlatBaroque May 2015 #29
Well said. The OP is a breathtakingly dishonest post, woo me with science May 2015 #42
You were quoted incorrectly? Are you having an owie? I actually looked at those links... Hekate May 2015 #140
Incorrect usage Scootaloo May 2015 #23
Oh yes they are from ONE post MaggieD May 2015 #26
Except you and he are doing the exact same thing Scootaloo May 2015 #33
I have a problem with the Gish Gallop MaggieD May 2015 #72
This is like, so gish gallopy. bravenak May 2015 #27
I don't watch horse racing but it sounds like lovemydog May 2015 #45
Hey!!! bravenak May 2015 #47
Very windy here. lovemydog May 2015 #67
Good one! bravenak May 2015 #95
That's the idea! MaggieD May 2015 #75
V. R. F4lconF16 May 2015 #31
Yep! bravenak May 2015 #48
This post is a really great example of Gish Gallop. Thanks! Katashi_itto May 2015 #32
Here's the original I took it from MaggieD May 2015 #46
Yours is much better. Katashi_itto May 2015 #129
Stunning rejoinder MaggieD May 2015 #130
Seriously? That is the best you can do? Katashi_itto May 2015 #135
The best you can do is waffles... Agschmid May 2015 #144
That's a come back? Katashi_itto May 2015 #145
Why do you feel sorry for her? Agschmid May 2015 #146
Lacking...really lacking. Katashi_itto May 2015 #147
I have no need to make a pithy reply... Agschmid May 2015 #148
Zzzzz... Katashi_itto May 2015 #149
Nice edit. Agschmid May 2015 #151
combine gish gallops with ... wyldwolf May 2015 #34
Had to look that up libodem May 2015 #38
Emo progressive - LOL! (nt) MaggieD May 2015 #64
Indeed. DURHAM D May 2015 #39
My my, exactly whats happening to Pres O Iliyah May 2015 #58
thanks! OKNancy May 2015 #97
LOL -- what an apt description for what's been going on here since 2008! Hekate May 2015 #141
Thanks for exposing the lies of the right and left workinclasszero May 2015 #35
But, but, but.... libodem May 2015 #36
Hillary did not shoot Vince Foster nikto May 2015 #125
This poster, BTW... OilemFirchen May 2015 #37
I don't have the right decoder ring for your post. nt DURHAM D May 2015 #40
Brain dump. OilemFirchen May 2015 #50
I hope you don't mean me MaggieD May 2015 #54
No, of course not. OilemFirchen May 2015 #59
Thanks for clarifying MaggieD May 2015 #85
Irony indeed mcar May 2015 #132
TLDR because Gish Gallop hootinholler May 2015 #41
So you're okay with the Sander Supporters Gish Gallop, but.... MaggieD May 2015 #49
It's a damning collection of links the OP has failed to rebut. woo me with science May 2015 #79
Nah, I think I rebutted it real good MaggieD May 2015 #86
Thanks for the definition of gish galloping. lovemydog May 2015 #44
Haven't seen it done to Sanders MaggieD May 2015 #53
No links. lovemydog May 2015 #70
Thank goodness we have you to set the record straight. MannyGoldstein May 2015 #51
You are most welcome MaggieD May 2015 #56
There is a group on DU Andy823 May 2015 #128
Kick Rec and Thank You profoundly for identifying this scourge by name, MaggieD Hekate May 2015 #52
Thanks for collecting all these together in one place ... Bookmarked! Cheese Sandwich May 2015 #55
Can't take credit for that MaggieD May 2015 #60
Oh you mean the Gish Galloper is woo me with science? I love that poster. They make awesome posts. Cheese Sandwich May 2015 #68
Wow, you did due dillegece and a lot of effort still_one May 2015 #63
Yeah it was a pain MaggieD May 2015 #66
Isn't the OP itself a Gish Gallop style argument? Romulox May 2015 #65
No, actually it's not MaggieD May 2015 #69
"The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent..." Romulox May 2015 #77
Correct MaggieD May 2015 #80
That's what you have done here. Arguing that others made you do it doesn't change that. nt Romulox May 2015 #81
I'll put you down for the "I'm rubber, you're glue" response MaggieD May 2015 #88
Yup. n/t winter is coming May 2015 #73
Actually, no MaggieD May 2015 #78
I'm acquainted with the definition. It's a Gish Gallop. n/t winter is coming May 2015 #82
So you're going with the "Im rubber, you're glue" argument? MaggieD May 2015 #84
Excellent post Evergreen Emerald May 2015 #74
LOL, that stuff is straight off the Moonie flyers I used to get handed in college. ucrdem May 2015 #76
The consistent use of right wing sources is what disturbs me the most MaggieD May 2015 #83
I guess it made sense to other Moonies. ucrdem May 2015 #87
And the fact that some are using these kinds of tactics.... daleanime May 2015 #92
I don't care who you support MaggieD May 2015 #94
As long as you believe that.... daleanime May 2015 #113
I thought the Hillary group was full of positivity and light BrotherIvan May 2015 #93
So you think BS about her... MaggieD May 2015 #96
You think silly, dismissive, and factually incorrect zingers refute evidence? BrotherIvan May 2015 #106
Nope sorry - you missed again MaggieD May 2015 #112
Well you can tell that to the thousands of laid-off tech workers BrotherIvan May 2015 #116
She wasn't advocating it wholesale MaggieD May 2015 #121
At $300,000 a speech, it takes a village (and a lot of blue ink) to raise a Clinton. whereisjustice May 2015 #98
Another right wing talking point MaggieD May 2015 #100
If you are a Wall Street bank, $500,000 might get you two speeches whereisjustice May 2015 #104
Have you given $10 million to charities? MaggieD May 2015 #107
Great post! yallerdawg May 2015 #99
Thanks! MaggieD May 2015 #101
K freaking R and Bookmarked. hrmjustin May 2015 #102
Let me summarize your three-hour rant Doctor_J May 2015 #103
+1 BrotherIvan May 2015 #105
Yup. Sums it up perfectly. truebrit71 May 2015 #126
Do I get points for being able to guess who you were responding to before looking? Egnever May 2015 #108
The glee in RW/GOP/Libertarian's bright eyes Iliyah May 2015 #109
Well done, you!!! MADem May 2015 #110
Great points - thank you! MaggieD May 2015 #115
^^^^MADem^^^^ Hekate May 2015 #136
Nothing like using a concept to the fullest in order to explain it nikto May 2015 #111
Gotta do what you gotta do MaggieD May 2015 #114
Who's the *real* Gish Galloper? MannyGoldstein May 2015 #117
LOL - we already know what the purists think MaggieD May 2015 #118
Just pointing out abject BS MannyGoldstein May 2015 #119
This comment was alerted on. betsuni May 2015 #152
That's not the problem. HERE'S your problem ---- (Beware Incoming Metaphors) nikto May 2015 #120
Wow, what a stunning reply MaggieD May 2015 #123
what is it called when someone asks just one question G_j May 2015 #124
Here's the REAL bottom-line ... nikto May 2015 #127
Spot on MaggieD May 2015 #131
I will vote for the nominee. Period. n/t pnwmom May 2015 #143
Best post I have ever read on DU! leftofcool May 2015 #133
Thanks for posting, have it bookmarked for future reference. Truth hurts sometimes. Thinkingabout May 2015 #137
Excellent deconstruction. Bobbie Jo May 2015 #138
posted to for later. 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #139
Thank you for all your work! It's appreciated. n/t pnwmom May 2015 #142
Much appreciated one-stop shopping post -- thanks! nt betsuni May 2015 #150
Thanks, Maggie. KMOD May 2015 #153
They try soooo hard...how cute!!! U4ikLefty May 2015 #154
okay, if Manny's Gish Gallop thread is locked for being off topic, why isn't this one? liberal_at_heart May 2015 #156
You're claiming a fellow DUer is pro-genocide? SMC22307 May 2015 #157
Walmart Octafish May 2015 #158
Locking thread. TexasTowelie May 2015 #159

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
1. Bookmarked. Big K & R and Thank You.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:44 PM
May 2015

I have nothing more to add.
Thank you.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
71. Are you demonstrating how to "Gish Gallop"? Seems to me that's what you
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:30 PM
May 2015

are doing.

First of all calling people that do not support HRC, Hillary Haters is pathetic and should be embarrassing for a so-called "politically liberal" poster. It's really a bully technique to demonize one's opponent.

If you want to go head to head between HRC's stands on issues with Sen Sanders, then bring it on. But you discredit yourself by name calling.

H. Clinton betrayed the Democratic Party when she sided with George Bush and Richard "Little Dick" Cheney and promulgated the WMD lies. Now there is some thing you can address without your "Gish Gallop" excuse.

I will be glad to go issue by issue, one at a time so not to overwhelm you (Gish Gallop).

Shall we go with fracking? How does your candidate stand on the environmentally dangerous, but profitable, practice of fracking?

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
91. +1000 nt
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:03 PM
May 2015

merrily

(45,251 posts)
155. +1 BOOM.
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:39 AM
May 2015

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
2. Have to take issue with your take on H1B visas. They do come here to work, at extremely low $$$
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:45 PM
May 2015

Thus driving the wages DOWN in my field for those of us born here. There is NO shortage of qualified, skilled US IT workers. But companies want to be able to pay less, and H1B workers want a chance to come here, so they take very low wages. now HR can have a reduction in force, get rid of workers who are more experienced and cost more. Then when we get another job we are expected to take a huge pay cut because "the average wage" is now lower for our positions.
Thanks to H1B.
It drives the wages into the toilet for American workers.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
7. You missed the point. Completely and entirely.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:53 PM
May 2015

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
19. I understand the concerns in the OP, but on this one item - H1B visas - Hillary supports them
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:24 PM
May 2015

And they have driven wages down dramatically in my sector....

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
43. My state's UI division tracks wages for skilled H1B workers.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:09 PM
May 2015

Since I'm an economist, I got the raw data set so that I could perform analysis on the relative economic impact of bringing in an H1B worker versus hiring an American worker. What I found was that in IT and engineering occupations, the H1B people were paid an average wage that fell between the 25th percentile and median wage. So, the wages they are paid are not extremely low.

However, and it is a BIG however, H1B workers simply aren't as good for the local economy as American workers. The reason? Remittance. The average H1B worker sends 10% of their income back to their family in their home country. This money, in effect, leaves our community and is exported. What this means roughly is that, all else being equal, 100 H1B people will produce the same demand for local goods and services as approximately 90 American workers.

Now, the capitalist overlords don't care much about local jobs. At all. But the have to pay ICE between $2,500 and $5,000 per H1B visa to bring a worker over. This is on top of whatever foreign staffing company they use for outreach. This is why it is important for communities to have strong leadership that ensures there are plenty of high skilled people in the training pipeline so companies won't HAVE to recruit H1B people.

All that said, one does wonder why many companies (who shall remain nameless in this post) make it a point to fill some positions with H1B people even though there are American workers in their local area with those skills. It ain't supposed to happen that way. I guess they call that corruption or corporate welfare

Now I know this doesn't have much to do with Secretary Clinton, but I replied to your post to clarify that the wages paid aren't all that low, particularly positions requiring a highly skilled and degreed person.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
61. The very presence of the H1B workers suppresses wages.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:22 PM
May 2015

Moreover, these workers are supposed to have skills not present in the local market--therefore such positions should logically be expected to offer higher than average pay due to the supposed scarcity of the skillsets involved.

None of this tells us how much more local workers could demand if their bargaining power wasn't undercut by foreign labor, nor how many local workers would be trained to fill these positions if companies weren't permitted to use guest workers.

So your observation about wages isn't very telling.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
3. I bookmarked this thread as a reference, but I doubt
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:46 PM
May 2015

many will read through it due to its length.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
4. Wonderful post.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:50 PM
May 2015


I've seen Newsmax, Townhall, Breitbart, etc used here to attack Hillary. Ridiculous. And don't even get me started on the horrific picture memes on the "progressive" populist group. One had her bald dressed as a cyborg.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
12. And a lot of Alex Jones conspiracy type stuff too. Nt
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:58 PM
May 2015
 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
5. +1
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:50 PM
May 2015
 

think

(11,641 posts)
6. The 2nd article you posted explicitly says HRC helped draft the TPP
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:51 PM
May 2015

Not sure what YOU read but it's right there in the article:



She’s also taken a leading part in drafting the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the free-trade pact that would give U.S. companies a leg up on their Chinese competitors.


http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-01-10/hillary-clintons-business-legacy-at-the-state-department#p2



 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
8. There was a point that was pitched .... and a WHIFF!!!!
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:54 PM
May 2015

You missed it.

 

think

(11,641 posts)
11. From above: "HRC did not "draft" the TPP, and the linked article says nothing of the kind."
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:58 PM
May 2015

No she just played a leading role in drafting it. Care to split any more hairs?


 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
13. Steeeerike TWO!!!
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:59 PM
May 2015

Do yourself a favor and read the beginning of the OP.

 

think

(11,641 posts)
17. Feel free to elaborate.
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:20 PM
May 2015

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
25. one down
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:32 PM
May 2015

ten billion more questionable pro-Hillary arguments to go. Good luck!

 

think

(11,641 posts)
9. The third link goes to a thread which is not about HRC but one person does link to the previous
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:55 PM
May 2015

article from Bloomberg which states that HRC played a leading part in drafting the TPP.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
14. Except she didn't
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:00 PM
May 2015

Unless you mean tried to use State Dept diplomacy to US advantage, which was her job as SoS.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
10. Excellent. Thank you for wading through the bs.
Fri May 8, 2015, 06:57 PM
May 2015

Good work!!

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
15. speaking of gish gallup....
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:10 PM
May 2015

OH and as far as your "this article is about Bill Clinton it has nothing to do with Hillary" comment well:


from the alternet article:

"While it’s true that it was Bill who, as president, was ultimately responsible for these decision, Hillary was nonetheless a famously involved First Lady on political matters — a reputation she’s shown willingness to capitalize on in her new campaign. According to a 2013 Wall Street Journal report, Hillary has “signaled she would use the 1990s as a selling point if she jumps in the race, making the case that, as first lady, she was part of an era that found solutions to the same sorts of political difficulties that bedevil present-day Washington.” That legacy includes Bill Clinton’s “War on Drugs,” whether you like it or not."

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
18. Okay, tell us what she had to do with the issue
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:21 PM
May 2015

Of the war on drugs and mandatory minimum sentences other than being married to Bill Clinton? Absolutely nothing would be the answer.

Now if you want to be pissed at a Dem that is still in office over that, look to Uncle Joe. He was the prime Democrat that pushed mandatory minimum sentencing.

You guys need to brush up on your political history.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
57. You might have a point if you could point out where she refuted what he did. nm
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:20 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
62. Why is she obigated to do that?
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:22 PM
May 2015
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
89. As a candidate for President she has an obligation to tell the voters where she stands on
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:52 PM
May 2015

issues. Some people believe she is a very strong person and may have had some influence on her husband. If she didn't and disagrees with some of what he did, she needs to explain.

She seems to be very quiet about a lot of important issues. Where does she stand on fracking? I am against it, Sen Sanders is against it, I hope you are against destroying our water supplies for profits. I am sure her Goldman-Sachs advisers love fracking. It's profitable.

At some point you need to decide if you support the corporatists or the people.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
90. What's that got to do with Bill?
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:54 PM
May 2015

And issues that occurred 20 years ago?

Here is her voting record, and lots of links to policy statements. http://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/55463/hillary-clinton#.VU1akcstGUk

Maybe you can try addressing the actual issues and votes instead of Bill.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
134. I didn't say a thing about Bill. I would love to go over issues. How does she stand on Fracking?nm
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:58 PM
May 2015
 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
122. Damn good answer, Rhett
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:05 PM
May 2015

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
16. K & R
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:20 PM
May 2015

Either bashing threads of Pres O and/or HRC, HRC right now has more (sorta) to at least 5 and over positive threads for Bernie S (hereinafter referred to as BS), with total respect.

Cal Carpenter

(4,959 posts)
20. Thanks for both the definition of gish gallop
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:25 PM
May 2015

and your shining, tedious example of it (i.e. the rest of your post)

Oh, the irony, it burns, it burns....

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
21. You'd understand it if you were a DEMOCRAT. n/t
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:26 PM
May 2015

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
22. exactly
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:29 PM
May 2015

that was ProSense's tactic. I have a feeling we will be seeing more of these kinds of posts in Hillary's defense, with the links copied and pasted over and over with no expectation anyone will read any of them.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
24. Ah, the links are not mine
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:32 PM
May 2015

They come from a Hillary basher that I assume was hoping no one would click through on. I'm just debunking them.

I agree it's the same tactic prosense uses. But the tactic comes from a Sander's supporter, not me.

LOL! You should try reading an OP before commenting on it.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
28. I started
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:36 PM
May 2015

i had responses to the first two, but I realized it was just a game, which we will be playing over and over for the next two years.

 

think

(11,641 posts)
30. For what it's worth
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:40 PM
May 2015

the last post I've seen from Pro was very complimentary of Bernie.

FlatBaroque

(3,160 posts)
29. omg PRECISELY!
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:36 PM
May 2015

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
42. Well said. The OP is a breathtakingly dishonest post,
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:08 PM
May 2015

and a perfect example of the corporate propaganda machine's utter contempt for the intelligence of voters. The OP's entire response rests on the assumption that no one will actually visit the links, and the even more brazen assumption that Hillary's positions on these issues are not well-established by her own record.

This is the level of brazen manipulation and denial of reality itself we are fed by corporate politicians and their mouthpieces as a matter of routine now. Orwell was prescient. Political messaging in our corrupt oligarchy truly has devolved to the level of "2+2=5" and "War is Peace." We don't just live in a surveillance state now. We live in a vile, magnificently funded propaganda state, where we are lied to with impunity and bullied to accept a corporate narrative of denial, a shared national delusion about what is and isn't being done to us.

And we will see the same group of familiar, full-time corporate posters as always, swarming to rec this attempt to deny what we have observed from Hillary herself, witnessed with our own eyes.

It's Twilight Zone level propaganda, beyond insulting to anyone who follows the issues and understands the duty of a candidate to appeal to voters with a record. Hillary has been clear on all the issues detailed in my links, and she has chosen AGAINST the 99 percent on all of them. More importantly, these aren't minor issues. These are serious, serious issues at the heart of the corporate coup of democracy being perpetrated on this nation.


[font color=red]Reject Third Way propaganda. Reject denial and rewriting of history.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5767160
[/font color]





Hekate

(90,189 posts)
140. You were quoted incorrectly? Are you having an owie? I actually looked at those links...
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:25 PM
May 2015

....and they didn't seem to have been taken out of context by the OP, but certainly had been taken out of context by the DUer(s) who had posted them to bash a Democratic candidate.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
23. Incorrect usage
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:29 PM
May 2015

Each of those threads is one argument being presented. They are not compiled by one person making one argument.

well, except for you, which ought to make you think for a moment...

At any rate, it's not a "gish gallop" if lots of different people are making lots of different arguments in lots of different instances.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
26. Oh yes they are from ONE post
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:33 PM
May 2015

I just copied and pasted the posted links to debunk them.

Here is the original I used:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
33. Except you and he are doing the exact same thing
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:47 PM
May 2015

You're both simply compiling a number of arguments by a number of people. The only difference is that you try to rebut them with one-line zingers.

Also I notice that rather than responding to the poster you have a problem with, you make a new OP to complain about him, without actually saying so.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
72. I have a problem with the Gish Gallop
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:30 PM
May 2015

I didn't "compile" the (fake) arguments by other people. That was done by the Sander's supporter. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114

It appears to bum you out that I called out the BS, but I guess you'll just have to live with it.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
27. This is like, so gish gallopy.
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:35 PM
May 2015

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
45. I don't watch horse racing but it sounds like
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:12 PM
May 2015

something from the Kentucky Derby. Hi my friend. Hope you're enjoying a good weekend.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
47. Hey!!!
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:14 PM
May 2015

It's a bit rainy but that's better n snow! I hope your weekend is good too.
I tried to read the whole op but I got exhausted.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
67. Very windy here.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:25 PM
May 2015

Going to see some friends tonight. I've been a hermit all week. Yeah, I didn't read it all either. At least I learned a new phrase. If anyone acts too weird I'll suggest they gish gallop on out the door.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
95. Good one!
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:14 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
75. That's the idea!
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:32 PM
May 2015

The whole point of someone that throws out a gish gallop is to exhaust you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114

If you think it was exhausting reading it, you should believe me that it was exhausting responding to it.

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
31. V. R.
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:43 PM
May 2015

On the issues. 'Nuff said.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
48. Yep!
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:15 PM
May 2015
 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
32. This post is a really great example of Gish Gallop. Thanks!
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:45 PM
May 2015

Using it as an example for class.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
46. Here's the original I took it from
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:14 PM
May 2015
 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
129. Yours is much better.
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:25 PM
May 2015

Less actual facts.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
130. Stunning rejoinder
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:27 PM
May 2015

But typical from the HRC bashers. If any of you could make an actual argument I'm sure you would.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
135. Seriously? That is the best you can do?
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:06 PM
May 2015

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
144. The best you can do is waffles...
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:31 PM
May 2015

Just saying.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
145. That's a come back?
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:50 PM
May 2015

I feel rather sorry for HRC.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
146. Why do you feel sorry for her?
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:51 PM
May 2015

No need to.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
147. Lacking...really lacking.
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:54 PM
May 2015

A smell of desperation wafts about as Ag strives to make some sort of pithy reply.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
148. I have no need to make a pithy reply...
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:58 PM
May 2015

You do the leg work for me.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
149. Zzzzz...
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:03 AM
May 2015

Ok you have my sympathies.

I understand the problem 3rd wayers aren't really programmed for higher level functions like sarcasm, independent thought.

Sort of like a dem version of Dennis Miller.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
151. Nice edit.
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:21 AM
May 2015

Real class act.

wyldwolf

(43,865 posts)
34. combine gish gallops with ...
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:47 PM
May 2015
Puritopians and it's always a fun time.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
38. Had to look that up
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:58 PM
May 2015

The definition was worth reading just to see that it supercedes: "emo progressive".

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
64. Emo progressive - LOL! (nt)
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:23 PM
May 2015

DURHAM D

(32,595 posts)
39. Indeed.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:03 PM
May 2015

Do you think they are over-represented on DU or should I be worried about my neighbors?

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
58. My my, exactly whats happening to Pres O
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:20 PM
May 2015

Pres O have to contend with the insane right as well as with the "Puritopians". Both groups are extremely angry. Takes a strong person to endure such hatred. I think HRC can manage it as well, but I know it takes on toll on their minds.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
97. thanks!
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:16 PM
May 2015

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
141. LOL -- what an apt description for what's been going on here since 2008!
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:27 PM
May 2015

Thanks

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
35. Thanks for exposing the lies of the right and left
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:50 PM
May 2015

against Hillary.

The right has no shame but there's no excuse for the left using teabag lies against a fellow democrat!

libodem

(19,288 posts)
36. But, but, but....
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:54 PM
May 2015

Vince Foster

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
125. Hillary did not shoot Vince Foster
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:10 PM
May 2015




I mean, clearly, it was Chelsea who did the deed.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
37. This poster, BTW...
Fri May 8, 2015, 07:56 PM
May 2015

was an active participant in the chorus which constantly hectored another poster for her "wall of blue links". Said other poster, BTW, is ironically mentioned above... in a subthread about irony.

I'm howling ovah heah.

DURHAM D

(32,595 posts)
40. I don't have the right decoder ring for your post. nt
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:04 PM
May 2015

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
50. Brain dump.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:15 PM
May 2015

It made sense when I wrote it.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
54. I hope you don't mean me
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:18 PM
May 2015

Here is the original post I am riffing on: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114

Is that the poster you are referring to?

And I wasn't posting here when Prosense would do the wall of blue links thing (although I have seen it). I never commented on it.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
59. No, of course not.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:20 PM
May 2015

I was commenting about the poster to whom you were referring.

I suffer from paucity of words. Sorry.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
85. Thanks for clarifying
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:48 PM
May 2015

mcar

(42,210 posts)
132. Irony indeed
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:47 PM
May 2015

I noted that the first time I saw that "wall of blue links" that apparently was good only for ridicule when used to support Pres. Obama but is A -OK to trash Sec. Clinton.

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
41. TLDR because Gish Gallop
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:08 PM
May 2015

The irony is strong in this one.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
49. So you're okay with the Sander Supporters Gish Gallop, but....
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:15 PM
May 2015

Not the act of responding to it. Do I have that right?

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
79. It's a damning collection of links the OP has failed to rebut.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:36 PM
May 2015

Damning enough to elicit this elaborate but transparently dishonest attempt at rebuttal.

Hillary's corporate positions on all of these issues are well-established, not just by the links themselves, but by the totality of her record and our own experience watching her over the years.

Yes, the irony in the OP's attempt to complain about "Gish Gallop" is delicious, but you've got to consider that the corporate talking points machine faces an impossible situation here:



(1)
They can embrace and try to defend their candidate's overall predatory, corporate, warmongering, antidemocratic policy agenda. But if they do that, they alienate the 99 percent, who are sick of looting, murderous, predatory corporate exploitation.

OR

(2)
They can LIE about and deny their candidate's true agenda, and pretend to be populists. But if they do that, they alienate the 99 percent, who are sick of obvious manipulative lies from corrupt, corporate politicians.

OR

(3)
They can focus on trying to slime the opposition, in which case they alienate the 99 percent, who are sick of dirty, diversionary, dishonest politics.


The monied interests that control our political process now depend on propaganda, diversion, and blatant misrepresentation of their candidate's record. They can't win on the actual issues, because they are corrupt. And now that we have a genuinely honest candidate in the race, their corruption is magnified by contrast. I think posts like the OP are actually useful, because they expose so clearly the level of dishonesty and utter contempt for voters that we face from our corporate-controlled political messaging machines today.



[font color=red]Reject Third Way propaganda and brazen rewriting of history.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025767160
[/font color]

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
86. Nah, I think I rebutted it real good
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:48 PM
May 2015

Can I ask why you use so many right wing sources?

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
44. Thanks for the definition of gish galloping.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:09 PM
May 2015

I've seen it done to President Obama. And to Hillary Clinton. And to Bernie Sanders. When it's extreme and repeated I sometimes question the poster's credibility or sincerity.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
53. Haven't seen it done to Sanders
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:16 PM
May 2015

Do you have a link? I would love to check it out. Gish Gallop is a cowardly debating technique in my opinion.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
70. No links.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:28 PM
May 2015

I've seen him called a gun nut, a gun-humper, suggesting he's a racist, that he has no chance of winning the nomination, that he's only running to be a spoiler, that he's too white or too old or his hair ain't right, that he's not a democrat, that he likes Swedish people too much, that he has not a snowball's chance in hell of winning the presidency, that his supporters are assholes, tons of stuff. I'm paraphrasing of course. But you get the idea.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
51. Thank goodness we have you to set the record straight.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:15 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
56. You are most welcome
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:20 PM
May 2015

And thank YOU for a link to another example of me calling out the purists for quoting right wingers.

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
128. There is a group on DU
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:21 PM
May 2015

How love quoting right wingers, they have done it with president Obama, Hillary, and anyone in the party they "think" are not "real" liberals, progressives, democrats like they are. Of course now days I guess it's those who are not "populist". It really doesn't matter to them where they get their sources as long as they can use the information to bash those they dislike. They simply live to stir things up and do their best to divide those on the board instead of trying to unite them against the right. It's the weekend so they will be out in force with their loyal followers who love to "alert" on those who might disagree with their group.

Thanks for the OP. By the looks of some of the posts here, you seems to have them out in force trying to defend their method of "attacking". As long as their loyal followers except all they post as "facts" without ever really checking them out, they will continue to play by their rules. Thanks again for pointing out their tactics.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
52. Kick Rec and Thank You profoundly for identifying this scourge by name, MaggieD
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:15 PM
May 2015

Currently I am experimenting with Trash Thread, but I can't keep up. After awhile I may just experiment with going away....

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
55. Thanks for collecting all these together in one place ... Bookmarked!
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:18 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
60. Can't take credit for that
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:21 PM
May 2015

They were all collected and posted by the Gish Galloper in a single post. Here is the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
68. Oh you mean the Gish Galloper is woo me with science? I love that poster. They make awesome posts.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:26 PM
May 2015


Thanks!

still_one

(91,949 posts)
63. Wow, you did due dillegece and a lot of effort
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:22 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
66. Yeah it was a pain
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:24 PM
May 2015

But I had some time and I really, really hate the gish gallop thing. And I figured I could save it for use later as well. I'm sure we will see more wall of blue links gish gallop stuff over the next 12 months or so.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
65. Isn't the OP itself a Gish Gallop style argument?
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:23 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
69. No, actually it's not
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:28 PM
May 2015

Responding to a Gish Gallop is rare. That's the whole point of the Gish Galloper. Flood the zone with enough bullshit to create a false narrative and hope no one checks into the BS, or simply cannot address all the straw men packed into the gish gallop.

It is very effective in timed, verbal debates, as the definition I posted states. Not so effective if someone actually responds to the mountain of bullshit when time is not an issue.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
77. "The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent..."
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:33 PM
May 2015
The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop


 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
80. Correct
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:36 PM
May 2015

See example here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=6640114

(That's the one I used for the OP). Great example, no?

Are you saying we should just leave Gish Gallop posts alone, no matter how much BS they contain?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
81. That's what you have done here. Arguing that others made you do it doesn't change that. nt
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:38 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
88. I'll put you down for the "I'm rubber, you're glue" response
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:50 PM
May 2015

Thanks for clarifying.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
73. Yup. n/t
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:30 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
78. Actually, no
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:34 PM
May 2015

Responding to a Gish Gallop is not a gish gallop.

Here is the definition so you can refresh yourself:

"The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own. They may be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments that are specifically designed to be brief, but take a long time to unravel. Thus, galloping is frequently used in timed debates (especially by creationists) to overwhelm one's opponent."

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
82. I'm acquainted with the definition. It's a Gish Gallop. n/t
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:38 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
84. So you're going with the "Im rubber, you're glue" argument?
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:47 PM
May 2015

LOL! Okay then.

Evergreen Emerald

(13,069 posts)
74. Excellent post
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:30 PM
May 2015

Thanks

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
76. LOL, that stuff is straight off the Moonie flyers I used to get handed in college.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:33 PM
May 2015

I'd read about three words and start laughing. But the Moonies were so polite and sad looking I always took a flyer to be nice and waited until they were out of sight before tossing them.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
83. The consistent use of right wing sources is what disturbs me the most
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:46 PM
May 2015

But yeah, there is some crazy stuff in the Gish Gallop post too.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
87. I guess it made sense to other Moonies.
Fri May 8, 2015, 08:50 PM
May 2015

Wonder what became of them anyway . . .

daleanime

(17,796 posts)
92. And the fact that some are using these kinds of tactics....
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:05 PM
May 2015

changes my choice to support Bernie how?

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
94. I don't care who you support
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:12 PM
May 2015

I'm just pointing out the BS posted by the HRC bashers.

daleanime

(17,796 posts)
113. As long as you believe that....
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:49 PM
May 2015

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
93. I thought the Hillary group was full of positivity and light
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:11 PM
May 2015

And would NEVER go on the attack. But just today you are attacking a long-time DUer with your highly questionable OPINIONS as well as another Hill booster who called Omaha Steve demented. Take a bow, you've done good work for the day.

I think by your nasty behavior you are doing far more harm to your cause than good. If you wanted to refute the arguments you should have done it in the original post. But you don't want to play that way, you just want applause and snark.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
96. So you think BS about her...
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:15 PM
May 2015

Shouldn't be called out? Sorry, i didn't sign up for that. Odd you should expect it to go unchallenged.

I have a great idea. People should avoid posting BS about Democrats here on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
106. You think silly, dismissive, and factually incorrect zingers refute evidence?
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:32 PM
May 2015

For instance, you are obviously astonishingly clueless about H1B visas. That's no surprise as I have encountered others on this board who are as well. Your other commentary is equally as vapid. You achieved what you wanted, the tiny minority of Hill supporters clapped you on the back. But what you failed to do is present an argument. And in the process, you attacked a longtime DUer and snarked off his replies. If you think you are helping your cause in any way, that is just as delusional as this post.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
112. Nope sorry - you missed again
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:49 PM
May 2015

The link pertaining to HB1 Visas was Hillary stating she supported them for STEM jobs for Silicon valley and other tech companies.

I live in the Seattle area. My wife worked for a long time in Silicon Valley and then for Microsoft as a manager. There is a real problem with finding STEM qualified applicants in this area. MS has used the HB1 visa program to fill a good number of vacant jobs here. They are paid well. In addition, we have a booming job market here. Low unemployment, easy to sell a house, and great schools. So much for your sky is falling claims.

Secondly, in the exact same video she touts support for funding to improve the number of STEM qualified American graduates, and emphasizes the importance of the US generating it's own workers through government support for this type of education.

And she is exactly fucking right.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
116. Well you can tell that to the thousands of laid-off tech workers
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:59 PM
May 2015

And all the people in my industry, the entertainment industry, most especially digital effects and editing, that was absolutely DECIMATED by H1B workers. You're making it sound like tech workers love H1B visas and all is right with the world. So fucking out of touch.

Showing again that you don't give a fuck about people, just that your candidate wins.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
121. She wasn't advocating it wholesale
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:05 PM
May 2015

She was advocating it for Silicon Valley and other tech companies. That is THE video a HRC basher posted.

You realize that the overall HB1 visa grants have seen a sharp decrease during the Obama administration, right? They have been extremely back-logged.

The people you don't think I give a fuck about are my neighbors and friends. But you just keep on ranting. Don't let the facts stop you.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
98. At $300,000 a speech, it takes a village (and a lot of blue ink) to raise a Clinton.
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:19 PM
May 2015

She's priced herself out of the Democratic Party. We can't afford her.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
104. If you are a Wall Street bank, $500,000 might get you two speeches
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:27 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
107. Have you given $10 million to charities?
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:35 PM
May 2015

They have.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
99. Great post!
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:22 PM
May 2015

I just thought it was all BS.

You proved it! And a right-wing tactic, to boot! It smelled fishy.

Glad you are one of the 'good guys'!

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
101. Thanks!
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:23 PM
May 2015
 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
102. K freaking R and Bookmarked.
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:25 PM
May 2015

Well done!

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
103. Let me summarize your three-hour rant
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:27 PM
May 2015

1. Nothing that happened while Clinton was SoS had anything to do with her

2. The fact that he has spent 25 years cozying up to the hyper-rich, including the Bush family, will have no bearing whatsoever on how she governs. Also, anyone who mentions her hyper-richness is a sexist.

3. We should all love fracking

4. We should all love adventures like Nicaragua, Granada, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Chile, El Salvador, and on and on because they're only waged against baaaaaaaad people.

5. Anyone who favors slashing the militry budget, staying out of foreign affairs, governing for little people instead of big people, and end to drilling and fracking, and fair taxes are not really dems. Oh, and liberals suck.

Hillarians Jump Shark - film constantly at DU.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
105. +1
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:28 PM
May 2015
 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
126. Yup. Sums it up perfectly.
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:12 PM
May 2015

...

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
108. Do I get points for being able to guess who you were responding to before looking?
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:40 PM
May 2015

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
109. The glee in RW/GOP/Libertarian's bright eyes
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:41 PM
May 2015

for people who are against HRC herein at the DU. Same for BS. O'Malley soon to come (which I find interesting).

But alas, some positives will survive.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
110. Well done, you!!!
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:47 PM
May 2015

When they've got nothing, they fling shit.

Those who do this sort of thing, while pretending to support a dark horse (stalking horse?) candidate, are clearly pot-stirring.

The debate about where the party is going? A great thing! Bring it on!!!

The discussions about the best way to get there? Yee haw--hash it out!!!!!

But cutting down a Democrat who was the first one to try to get every American Universal Health Care, using lies and bullshit? That's just not on, and it's not something the only other declared candidate on the left would find appropriate.

Senator Sanders took HILLPAC money. It helped him win his senate seat. He just doesn't hate her as much as some of his (?) "supporters" (?) would like to pretend. He calls her "his friend of 25 years." I think he'd be appalled at the way some of them "support" him by flinging shit at her.

There's nothing wrong with two candidates hashing out the issues...but I think they'd prefer to talk about ACTUAL issues, and not innuendos and accusations.

Some of the trash talking has not been very """"progressive"""" (since that's the Word of the Year, apparently--even though a lot of people professing it have no idea what it means) at all!

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
115. Great points - thank you!
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:51 PM
May 2015

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
136. ^^^^MADem^^^^
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:16 PM
May 2015
 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
111. Nothing like using a concept to the fullest in order to explain it
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:48 PM
May 2015


 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
114. Gotta do what you gotta do
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:50 PM
May 2015

Should I have posted 22 different posts to respond to the Gish Gallop instead?

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
117. Who's the *real* Gish Galloper?
Fri May 8, 2015, 09:59 PM
May 2015
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
118. LOL - we already know what the purists think
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:01 PM
May 2015

Did my post hurt your feelings? LOL!

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
119. Just pointing out abject BS
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:02 PM
May 2015

someone needs to take a stand for the poster you're smearing.

betsuni

(25,128 posts)
152. This comment was alerted on.
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:23 AM
May 2015

Alerter called it "insulting, rude, personal attack, name calling, belittling ... disruptive and childish. Making DU suck." Someone tried awfully hard to fake an injury. Ridiculous.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
120. That's not the problem. HERE'S your problem ---- (Beware Incoming Metaphors)
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:03 PM
May 2015








Any questions?

Didn't think so.
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
123. Wow, what a stunning reply
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:06 PM
May 2015

LOL! I guess a couple of pics is the best you can do.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
124. what is it called when someone asks just one question
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:08 PM
May 2015

over, and over, and over again, while ignoring the answer?

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
127. Here's the REAL bottom-line ...
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:15 PM
May 2015

I strongly favor Bernie.

If Bernie is nominated, I'll happily vote for him.

BUT BUT BUT ---- If Hillary gets it, I'll reluctantly vote for her. But fear not ---- I WILL vote Democratic.

Voting GOP is not an alternative, IMO.

Do all the Hillary-supporters agree to vote for Bernie if he is able to get nominated?
That's all I could ask.
If so, then I refuse to argue at this point.


I mean, is there actually ANY Hillary-supporter anywhere who would vote GOP instead of Bernie,
in the Presidential election?

I'll bet there isn't even ONE.

Not one. Am I right?

Unless there is, there's no real need to argue.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
131. Spot on
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:31 PM
May 2015

I just don't see the need to tear down others in our party in te process.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
143. I will vote for the nominee. Period. n/t
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:28 PM
May 2015

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
133. Best post I have ever read on DU!
Fri May 8, 2015, 10:55 PM
May 2015

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
137. Thanks for posting, have it bookmarked for future reference. Truth hurts sometimes.
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:20 PM
May 2015

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
138. Excellent deconstruction.
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:21 PM
May 2015

Nicely done.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
139. posted to for later.
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:22 PM
May 2015

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
142. Thank you for all your work! It's appreciated. n/t
Fri May 8, 2015, 11:27 PM
May 2015

betsuni

(25,128 posts)
150. Much appreciated one-stop shopping post -- thanks! nt
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:14 AM
May 2015
 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
153. Thanks, Maggie.
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:30 AM
May 2015

K&R

U4ikLefty

(4,012 posts)
154. They try soooo hard...how cute!!!
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:32 AM
May 2015

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
156. okay, if Manny's Gish Gallop thread is locked for being off topic, why isn't this one?
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:40 AM
May 2015

SMC22307

(8,088 posts)
157. You're claiming a fellow DUer is pro-genocide?
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:50 AM
May 2015
Okay, we will put the Gish Galloper down for being in favor of the genocide that was occurring in Yugoslavia.


THAT is some serious bullshit.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
158. Walmart
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:51 AM
May 2015

Friendship.

Kennebunkport, July 30, 1983: Bill Clinton, George Bush & George Wallace



Wallace and his third wife, the former Lisa Taylor, meet with Vice President George Bush and Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton at a lobster bake at Bush's residence at Kennebunkport, Maine, July 30, 1983. The third Mrs. Wallace, whom the governor married in 1981, was 30 years his junior and half of a country-western singing duo, Mona and Lisa, who had performed during his campaign in 1968.

CREDIT: AP/Birmingham Post

SOURCE: http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/george-wallace/13/

TexasTowelie

(111,297 posts)
159. Locking thread.
Sat May 9, 2015, 12:52 AM
May 2015

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum. Conspiracy theories and disruptive meta-discussion are forbidden. For more information, click here.

The consensus of forum hosts believe that this thread constitutes disruptive meta-discussion with a call-out of another member on a different thread.

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