Pope Francis To Send Out Priests To Forgive The 'Sin' Of Women Who Have Had Abortions

[okaawhatever]

Pope Francis is reportedly planning to offer a special pardon of sins to women who have undergone abortions, along with the doctors and nurses who helped them with that choice.

As part of his upcoming Holy Year of Mercy, the pontiff plans to send specially trained priests as “missionaries of mercy” to Catholic parishes around the world. The army of priests will reportedly hear these women’s confessions and absolve them of the “sin of a procured abortion,” the Irish Times reports. The forgiveness can also be given to healthcare workers who perform abortions.

Official Catholic doctrine places abortion in a special class of sins that leads to excommunication, a banishment from the life of the church that is considered one of its most serious punishments. Usually, only bishops or the Pope can offer forgiveness for these types of sins.

SNIP

But Francis has also placed a strong emphasis on mercy. In the past, he’s criticized church leaders for becoming “obsessed” with hot-button issues like abortion and same-sex marriage, instead of focusing on making sure the church is a “home for all.”

Continued at Link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/08/pope-francis-abortions_n_7244630.html

Also in the article: Catholic women get abortions at the same rate as other women

[PeaceNikki]

1. .

[JaneyVee]

2. FOH.

Constitutional laws as 'sins' now?

[Terra Alta]

3. oh, how nice of him to "forgive" these women for their "sin"

Didn't realize a medical procedure was a sin now. And this is supposed to be a "progressive" Pope?

[LeftyMom]

4. The church needs to start asking women for forgiveness.

[PeaceNikki]

5. Amen. As well as the survivors and families of children they abused.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

151. Overwhelming chutzpah from these men in that church.

A religion that by definition treats women as 2nd class citizens.

[beam me up scottie]

16. What Nikki said.

[DawgHouse]

6. Trying to think of something nice to say...

Well, I suppose that for women of the Catholic faith, this may give them some comfort.

Also he is right that church leaders (not just Catholic) have become obsessed with "hot button" issues instead of making sure the church is welcoming to all.

[Thinkingabout]

7. I like the remark of making the home for all.

This is a true believer in God loves all.

[haikugal]

8. Fuck you Pope! nt

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Wow, how big of him. Backhanded shaming rituals.

nt

[a la izquierda]

10. Fuck them. I don't need forgiveness. Nt

[Dawson Leery]

11. The new babylonian bulls**ter is the same as the old one.

Last edited Sun May 10, 2015, 12:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Some de-emphasis on sexual issues. LIAR!

[NanceGreggs]

12. Not being Catholic ...

... I could give a fuck less what the leader of the Catholic Church says. I don't know why any non-Catholic would.

[Lordquinton]

17. You are so right

Why should anyone care that the leader of the world's largest organization has said that gay marriage is the work of Satan? Couldn't possibly have any bearing on anyone outside their little church group, yea?

[NanceGreggs]

18. Why would it?

Why should it?

[beam me up scottie]

19. Do you really believe that the Vatican's policies don't affect us?

Are you completely unaware of how much influence they have around the world?

Their efforts to ban same sex marriage, prevent lgbt people from adopting children, restricting and preventing access to birth control and abortion, lying about condoms in AIDS ravaged third world countries...

Any of this ringing a bell?

[Lordquinton]

20. Why does anyone care what Pam Gellar does?

Why should we care about the Westboro baptist church? Why should we pay any attention to Kim Jong Un? What does it matter what Karl Rove has to say?

Are you really that naive about the world?

[NanceGreggs]

21. So ...

... Geller, the Westboro Baptists, Kim Jong Un and Rove are all of the same ilk?

Are YOU really that naive?

[Lordquinton]

22. Nice goalpost changing

but this was about you claiming that the leader of an organization that spends millions of dollars influencing elections, getting legislation passed that restricts the rights of homosexuals and women (and endangers those women by buying medical care and then refusing female oriented care based only on their religious belief, which is reinforced by said pope)

And you think all that only affects Catholics? Is this one of those IGMFY viewpoints?

[NanceGreggs]

23. Please re-read your post.

I don't think you completed your thought in the first paragraph. As it stands, it doesn't make any sense.

[Lordquinton]

24. And now you're deflecting

Taking all that information you still claim that we shouldn't care what the pope says? That he says gay marriage is the work of the devil, and his church actively spends millions getting legislation passed to defeat gay marriage from happening and we still shouldn't care what he has to say?

He says abortion is wrong and his church spends millions buying up hospitals so they can deny women's services without even the need to buy legislation, and you still say we shouldn't care what he has to say?

I did not expect this kind of conservative viewpoints on a progressive website.

[NanceGreggs]

29. Your earlier post does not make sense.

You begin with, "this was about you claiming that the leader of an organization ...". You then rhyme off what the Pope/Catholic church does - but didn't complete the sentence.

Exactly WHAT is it I am allegedly claiming?

[Lordquinton]

34. still deflecting

You know the topic, and I even restated it for you.

I've seen this kind of defense of the pope elsewhere, as soon as the position is pointed out that it's, to put it bluntly, crap they immediately go on the attack, and accusing the oher person of all kinds of things, like not making sense.

You gonna keep up wih the right wing defense? Or are you gonna admit that what the pope says does affect us all?

[Arugula Latte]

127. There is some weird dissonance going on here.

Kinda boggles the mind what some "progressives" have to say about the RCC and other religions ...

[Lordquinton]

128. I had to make sure I was still on Democratic underground

Some people.

[beam me up scottie]

130. Why would a so called atheist be so defensive about religion?

Must be another case of "it doesn't bother me, why should I care if it hurts others?"

[Arugula Latte]

143. It's odd. There's no acknowledgment of it being a two-way street, at all.

The deference is supposed to run one way only -- from atheists to people "of faith."

[beam me up scottie]

145. She said she doesn't care if atheists are mocked.

But let someone mock the baby Jeebus or Mo and boy howdy, she's all over that offense.



Self-loathing atheists make the baby Flying Spaghetti Monster cry.

[Arugula Latte]

147. Yeah, it's RUDE and OBNOXIOUS to mock believers, but the reverse is not true at all.

The FSM weeps starchy water.

[beam me up scottie]

148. "The FSM weeps starchy water."

[NanceGreggs]

44. I am going to try this one more time ...

Your post states: "this was about you claiming that the leader of an organization that spends millions of dollars ...," etc. You never completed what it WAS that I was claiming.

Simple fuckin' question: What was I allegedly claiming?

Your post reads as: "You claimed that the leader of an organization ...," blah, blah. You then rattle off what the leader of that organization has said/done. You DON'T get around to what it was I was "claiming" about that leader.

It's like, "You claimed that so-and-so, who said such-and such" - and you leave it there.

WHAT was I "claiming"? You didn't complete that sentence, which is why I invited you to do so.

[Lordquinton]

45. Your going to deflect one more time?

Your going to focuse o one part of what I saisld, pretend ir wasn't within a greater context and play dumb? Your going to trt and say I didn't explain it in multiple ways? Your going to try the same tactic that every Catholic apolagist tries and attempt to make the other person seem like they aren't making sense?

That's what you're going to try one more time?

[NanceGreggs]

47. Okay, we're done.

I have invited you over and over to tell me what it is I allegedly "claimed".

You are apparently unable to do so. Your original post reads as, "So you are claiming that the leader of an organization, who said such-and-such." It ends there - you never get to what it IS that I am allegedly claiming. That's why I asked you, repeatedly, to complete that sentence.

I don't know if your problem is reading comprehension, or a merely an effort to deflect from what YOU yourself said and failed to complete.

Either way, I have better things to do than argue with someone who says that I "claimed" something, but is totally unable to state what it IS I allegedly claimed.

Have a good life.

[Lordquinton]

71. Deflection is all you have, I guess. Your position is indefensible after all

You know full well the context of your words, playing dumb won't fix that.

I also explained it to you what it was, but you chose to ignore that, which is a typical responce here when the point you are defending is so terrible.

Why do you support this abusive organization? I expect you're just going to prattle on about an already explained point and play the fool some more.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Stop misrepresenting their post.

Why does anyone care what Pam Gellar does?

Why should we care about the Westboro baptist church? Why should we pay any attention to Kim Jong Un? What does it matter what Karl Rove has to say?

Are you really that naive about the world?

The poster is pointing out how naive it is to believe religious discrimination begins and ends in church.

When the pope uses his wealth and influence to lobby against progressive causes it affects all of us.

If that doesn't bother you, fine.

But stop acting like we're bigots because we called him out on it.

[NanceGreggs]

31. What do Geller, Kim Jong Un, or Karl Rove ...

... have to do with religious discrimination?

I'm acting like "you're bigots"? How so? Sounds like paranoia coupled with a persecution complex to me.

[Lordquinton]

35. as you well know what any of them says has a real world affect

By your rules we should ignore what any leader says.

[beam me up scottie]

37. You:

Not being Catholic ...

... I could give a fuck less what the leader of the Catholic Church says. I don't know why any non-Catholic would.

LQ:

You are so right

Why should anyone care that the leader of the world's largest organization has said that gay marriage is the work of Satan? Couldn't possibly have any bearing on anyone outside their little church group, yea?

You:

Why would it?

Why should it?

Your posts in this thread and in others demanding that we respect religion prove you're clueless about how religious discrimination affects non-religious people.


You know what's more offensive than mocking religion?

So-called liberal's dismissal of the justifiable anger directed at bigoted belief systems.

[NanceGreggs]

49. Link or slink.

Please provide a link to where I "demanded" that others "respect religion".

What I HAVE said is that disrespecting anyone's religion for the sole purpose of being disrespectful is without purpose.

If you don't know the difference between the two concepts, that's your problem, not mine.

[beam me up scottie]

50. You never actually said those exact words.

But you did wag your finger until it fell off at people who said there's nothing wrong with ridiculing religious beliefs in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6648931


When it comes to why we value religious parodies I guess ignorance really is bliss.

Here's a newsflash, Nance: Progressives use satire because it's necessary, not because it's fun.

Offending the delicate sensibilities of folks like you is just an added bonus.

[NanceGreggs]

52. "You never actually said those exact words."

Nor did I say any words that are remotely like that.

"Progressives use satire because it's necessary, not because it's fun."

I really doubt that you would know what "progressives" do. That's part of the internetz experience - all kinds of people can claim to be what they're not.

But they inevitably show themselves to be what they truly are.

There is nothing "progressive" about ridiculing people of faith. In fact, it's pointedly regressive. There's not much difference between the admonishment to "believe what I believe" and "DO NOT believe what I don't believe."

In fact, those two admonitions sound eeerily alike.

[beam me up scottie]

58. Thread nannies who scold religion's victims are not progressives.

They are blaming the victim for lashing out at their oppressor.

Until you realize that religious influence adversely affects non-religious people you're part of the problem.

And we'll keep mocking you and your kind.

[NanceGreggs]

61. Well, you go right ahead and do that.

Because when people on this site mock me, I really take it seriously.

No, really and truly I do. It affects my entire life. My first thought when I wake up every morning is: What do people on DU think of me? If I can just "get right" with DU, all will be well.

If only I could be part of the "group think" mentality on DU, I will be accepted on the most important website to ever have existed. If only I could accept the opinions of the popular posters, without question or hesitation, I too could be part of the "in crowd" and sit at the cool table in the DU cafeteria.

If only I could stop thinking for myself and let the posters who still post on DU do my thinking for me.

These are my prayers - every day, all day.

And so far, my reaction is still: Fuck the group think. I'll think for myself, thank you.

YMMV - and obviously does.

[beam me up scottie]

64. Like I told you yesterday I don't need your permission.

I don't know you from adam but if people mock you often you really should ask yourself why.

If only I could be part of the "group think" mentality on DU, I will be accepted on the most important website to ever have existed. If only I could accept the opinions of the popular posters, without question or hesitation, I too could be part of the "in crowd" and sit at the cool table in the DU cafeteria.

You seem to suffer from some sort of persecution complex.

Maybe you should talk to someone about that.

They could probably give you some insight on why people mock you.

[NanceGreggs]

88. Being mocked by certain people on DU ...

... has become a badge of honour - not to mention a confirmation that I am thinking in the right direction.

Persecution complex? I'm not the one ranting and raving about how other people having religious beliefs is destroying the world as we know it.

The bubble is getting increasingly smaller. Some people find operating in that bubble to be safe and reassuring. I find it suffocating.

[beam me up scottie]

90. You just keep telling yourself that, Nance.

When this many people call you out over your apologist tripe it's always best to stick your head back in the sand.

Safer and quieter under there.

I find it suffocating.

But it does make it hard to breathe.

[NanceGreggs]

91. I prefer real life ...

... where no one - and I do mean no one - is the least bit interested in what DU has to say about anything.

[beam me up scottie]

92. "no one - and I do mean no one - is the least bit interested in what DU has to say about anything"

What a coincidence.

From what you posted earlier that's exactly how DU feels about what you have to say.

[phil89]

110. Why are you here then?

just curious. Seems like you'd be happier somewhere with like minded people telling you what to think about 2000 year old fairy tale books.

[NanceGreggs]

113. I'm an atheist.

I don't believe in 2,000-year-old "fairy tales". That doesn't compel me to tell people who DO believe that their faith is based on "fairy tales".

To each his own - religious faith or non-faith. I don't get off on ridiculing people because they adhere to a religion. Sadly, it seems that a lot of people here do.

"I will mock you because you do NOT believe in a religion!"

"I will mock you because you DO believe in a religion."

There's not too much daylight between those two mindsets.

[gcomeau]

33. Oh come on...

If you don't think these people influence public policy and thus impact the lives of all the rest of us you've been living with your head under a rock for your entire life.

[NanceGreggs]

39. Of course.

All kinds of groups, organizations, etc., influence public policy. And THAT is where the fight lies - fighting the transition from religious dogma to legislative influence.

Trying to fight the Pope's decrees and declarations to Catholics is pointless. He's not going to change his position, because he is adhering to his interpretation of Canon law.

The battle to be fought is when a politician takes up the cause of the Pope's decrees - or the decrees rendered by any other religious leader - and attempts to insert them into US legislation.

To say "The Pope said this, therefore we must battle the Pope" is meaningless. We have no sway over Catholic dogma and the tenets of that faith, or any other.

What we DO have is a right - I would say an obligation - to battle politicians who try to replace US law with religious law, or attempt to conflate the two.

If an Orthodox rabbi reminds his faithful that they can't eat pork, that's THEIR business - he and his fellow religionists. When an elected US legislator tries to pass a law that forbids the sale/consumption of pork products, it becomes OUR business as a nation.

Recognizing that various religious beliefs/practices exist is common sense, because we all know they do. And as long as they are confined to "the faithful", they are of no concern to anyone else. When those beliefs/practices find their way into our nation's political discourse, THAT is the time to take up arms against them. Not before.

Catholics have every right to believe that their religion forbids birth control and abortion. What they don't have a right to do is impose that belief on anyone else. So what do you choose to fight against? Do you think it is productive to try and convince the Catholic church that their religious beliefs are fucked-up? Or do you think it is more productive to say "believe what you will, but your rights end where mine begin"?

There is a battle to be waged here - but it is not against religious belief; it is against religious belief becoming part-and-parcel of the laws that govern us.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. why? Really?

Let's see.

http://www.usccb.org/about/pro-life-activities/

Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities

Precisely because all issues involving human life are interdependent, a society which destroys human life by abortion under the mantle of law unavoidably undermines respect for life in all other contexts. Likewise, protection in law and practice of unborn human life will benefit all life, not only the lives of the unborn" (Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities: A Reaffirmation [1985], 5). This is why we focus here on the pervasive threat to human life arising from the widespread recourse to abortion, from public policies that allow, encourage, and even fund abortion, and from a growing effort to promote the taking of human life through euthanasia.

These are not 'pieces of advice intended solely for members of the RCC' --- these are active and well-funded attempts to influence policy and law in the United States and elsewhere. Policy and law that applies to EVERYONE.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

103. Because vast numbers of people listen to him, that's why.

That means that anything major he says is going to have a significant impact on the world, and is worth being aware of.

[ismnotwasm]

13. No thank you.

Pope Francis says some good stuff, but he is NOT some radical change agent Pope

[backscatter712]

14. Since one of the more contentious threads tonight was about insulting religious figures...

[SidDithers]

25. Minchin is brilliant...

I got to see him in September at Just For Laughs in Toronto, and he rocked the house.

Thanks for posting this entirely appropriate song.

Sid

[CharlotteVale]

27. Loved him as Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Fuck the pope and fuck everyone who tells me I have to respect his beliefs.

Sideways.

Mercy, my ass.

He could care less about women, we're just a means to an end.

[CharlotteVale]

26. Hey Pope, take your "forgiveness" and shove it.

[MADem]

28. I will say this--he's trying like hell to get people to come back to the club!

This is rather like the sale of INDULGENCES in the Olde Days....sin like hell, pay money to have those sins forgiven. Want to eat meat during lent? Pay for the pleasure! Need an annulment? Pony up the dough!!!

I will say, no one markets better than Frank!

[PeaceNikki]

32. It's very "Buddy Christ"

[Lordquinton]

129. they give them out over twitter now

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/pope-indulgences-twitter_n_3610775.html

And they still sell them too, they just have good spin.

[NaturalHigh]

36. I'm trying to figure out why so many people think this is bad.

I personally know someone who has struggled with her decision to have an abortion for over twenty years. This will undoubtedly bring her and many other women comfort.

Remember the whole separation of church and state thing? The Church doesn't get to dictate what is or is not a constitutional right in this country. On the flip side, the state doesn't get to dictate what the Church can consider a sin.

The Pope's decision in this matter is a good thing. He's not playing politics, and even though I am sure he would love to see abortion outlawed, that has nothing to do with his decision to offer the Church's forgiveness for what Catholic doctrine universally considers a sin.

[beam me up scottie]

40. "The Church doesn't get to dictate what is or is not a constitutional right in this country."

Are you kidding?

It constantly uses its influence to restrict my rights.

What the hell is wrong with people?

Do you not know how much money the RCC spends lobbying against women's and lgbt people's rights?


He's a fucking misogynist politician who's doing everything in his power to take away my right to bodily autonomy and a homophobic bigot who wants to make sure lgbt people can't marry or adopt children.



Anyone who defends this lousy bigot against the people he wants to oppress is just as vile and disgusting as he is.

[NaturalHigh]

41. Do you want to restrict Pope Francis's right to free speech?

[beam me up scottie]

42. Nope, I want everyone to see his bigoted hate speech.

Geller wants to oppress muslims, Frankie wants to keep oppressing women and teh gays.

[Lordquinton]

43. the pope is not an American citizen, so your argument makes no sense

The real question is why so you want to silence the free speech of people who are pointing out his misogyny?

[NaturalHigh]

56. I don't want to silence anyone.

However, I have the right to present a different viewpoint. That's free speech too.

[Lordquinton]

68. how brave expressing the majority opinion

But you did make the argument that some were trying to silence the pope, whic is preposterous! The pope has actually silenced many, and you're trying to help this oppressor do such.

Why are you siding with the oppressors?

[Arugula Latte]

57. He wants to restrict our rights to abortion and birth control. Talk about infringing on freedom!

The misogynistic Catholic Church can go fuck itself.

[NaturalHigh]

59. He doesn't make American policy.

Pope Francis preaches Catholic Church doctrine. That's not only his right, it's his job.

Baptists think drinking is sinful, but we don't push for a return of prohibition. Most of us have an occasional snort. That doesn't mean that you can restrict our preachers' rights to pound the pulpits and denounce drinking, though. The same goes for abortion. You can demand the constitutional right to abortion, but churches can still call it sinful. That's an absolute right under our First Amendment.

[Lordquinton]

73. no, he directs millions of dollars to be funneled into elections

To force american policy. He also directs millions to be spent on buying up hospitals to revoke access to legal services, thus circumventing the need to affect policy at all.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Thanks, I was just getting to that.

How is it that people don't know about this?

[Mariana]

115. They know.

They just don't give a fuck.

[beam me up scottie]

124. You're right.

If they haven't lost any of their rights why care about ours?

[Arugula Latte]

111. Look at these assholes testifying in front of Congress against birth control ... Makes me sick:

[Drahthaardogs]

82. The U.S. Conference of Bishops have no lobbyists

What lobby are you talking about that the Vatican pays.

[beam me up scottie]

85. "How the Catholic Church masterminded the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby debacle"

How the Catholic Church masterminded the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby debacle

The Catholic bishops now sought a broad-based conscience clause that would allow any employer or insurer to refuse to cover contraceptives for any religious or moral objection. This represented a major escalation in the grounds for claiming conscience protections. Traditionally so-called conscience clauses, like the 1973 Church Amendment, protected individuals or health care entities like hospitals only from being compelled to directly perform abortions or sterilizations in violation of their moral or religious beliefs. In 1997, the federal government expanded conscience protections to the payers of abortion-related services when it allowed Medicaid and Medicare managed-care plans to refuse to pay providers for abortion counseling or referral services. Now the bishops were attempting to extend conscience protection to any payer who had a “moral” objection to contraception. Such a measure would make contraceptive coverage mandates useless, because any employer or insurer could opt out. And it would once again leave women’s reproductive health care at the mercy of individual employers and insurers and stigmatize contraceptives, like abortion, as a segregated health service that could be carved out of the continuum of women’s health needs.

The bishops failed to get a broader conscience clause in the bill mandating coverage of contraceptives for federal employees, but they did manage to get an exemption for the five religiously affiliated plans in the system. Having set the precedent that religious providers would be treated differently concerning the provision of reproductive health care, even in the matter of noncontroversial services such as contraception, the bishops launched a major new effort to create broad conscience exemptions.

...

There was more at stake that just the bishops’ authority over services provided by Catholic institutions. Domestic and international social service agencies affiliated with the church, like Catholic Charities USA and Catholic Relief Services, receive hundreds of millions of dollars in government contracts each year to provide social services to the poor, run adoption agencies, and manage international development projects. Catholic Charities affiliates received nearly $3 billion in government funding in 2010, accounting for more than 60 percent of their revenue. Religiously affiliated hospitals in the United States, of which 70 percent are Catholic, receive some $40 billion in government funding each year through Medicare and Medicaid and other government programs.

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/14/how_the_catholic_church_masterminded_the_supreme_courts_hobby_lobby_debacle/

The Personhood Movement: Internal Battles Go Public: Part 2

In 1975, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops had developed a plan to turn every diocese into an anti-choice political machine and to use its existing infrastructure to set up an office in every congressional district. The bishops’ plan included a four-pronged legislative strategy, which continues to guide the anti-choice movement today:

(a) Passage of a constitutional amendment providing protection for the unborn child to the maximum degree possible.

(b) Passage of federal and state laws and adoption of administrative policies that will restrict the practice of abortion as much as possible.

(c) Continual research into and refinement and precise interpretation of Roe and Doe and subsequent court decisions.

(d) Support for legislation that provides alternatives to abortion.

In other words: fight for an amendment to undo Roe, but at the same time work through the courts and legislatures to make it harder for women to access legal abortion. While Roe would remain the law of the land, women would not be able to actually exercise their rights.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/personhood-movement-internal-battles-go-public-part-2-0

Report Says Religious Right And Catholic Bishops Dominate ‘Faithful’ Lobbying

In D.C. A report issued by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life finds that religious advocacy groups in the nation’s capital are growing and that most of the largest organizations are affiliated with the Religious Right or the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

The November report, “Lobbying for the Faithful: Religious Advocacy Groups in Washington, D.C.,” surveyed more than 200 groups that engage in advocacy and/or lobbying in the nation’s capital. It found explosive growth in such groups, noting that the number of these organizations jumped from 67 in 1970 to 212 today.

Furthermore, the groups raise and spend significant sums of money. One of the largest religious advocacy organizations in Washington, for example, is the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which has an annual budget of $26.6 million.

Other top spenders include the Family Research Council ($14.2 million), Concerned Women for America ($12.5 million), the National Right to Life Committee ($11.3 million) and Focus on the Family’s CitizenLink ($10.8 million).

Collectively, the 212 groups surveyed raise and spend $390 million a year.

Of the top 15 groups listed, 10 are Religious Right organizations or take stands in alignment with the Catholic hierarchy. Groups that failed to make the top 15 but that still have considerable budgets include the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission ($3.2 million), the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty ($2.2 million) and the Eagle Forum ($2.2 million).

https://www.au.org/church-state/january-2012-church-state/people-events/report-says-religious-right-and-catholic

Do you really want to go there?

[Drahthaardogs]

86. where is the lobby?

You said they had a lobby they paid millions to. I think you are wrong. Show me the lobby and their salaries.

[beam me up scottie]

89. Nope, I said the Church spends millions lobbying against our rights.

"the lobby and their salaries" is a nice straw man but your organization is the largest homophobic misogynistic institution in the world.

They actively seek to keep women and lgbt people in their place as second class citizens.

[Drahthaardogs]

97. But they don't.

They have no formal lobby here in America. I love the DU folks who rant so viciously about the Church but they are uninformed. The Church has its problems, no doubt. However, we don't need bullshit untruths thrown out there.

You said The Catholic Church (which in this context would actually mean the U.S. Conference of Bishops) lobbies and spends millions. I say you are full of BS on this subject. The Church does NOT pay lobbyists here in America. Period.

[PeaceNikki]

98. So... You're saying they have no power in our legislative process? BS

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120399270

When Religion Collides With Legislative Process

But the bishops' conference still has clout. One big reason is its power over the church infrastructure. In Washington parlance, that would be the grass tops that influence the grass roots.

Late last month, the conference sent out nearly 19,000 notices for church bulletins that Sunday. They said that without strong anti-abortion language, Catholics should oppose the health care bill.

"Very few religions have the type of lobby machine that the United States Conference of Bishops have," says Jon O'Brien, president of Catholics for Choice. O'Brien says polls consistently show that a majority of Catholics are more liberal on reproductive issues than the conference is.

"Sometimes religious leaders are given a free pass, and it's as though we don't ask, 'Who do you represent, and is what you're saying factually correct?' " O'Brien says.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1069406


A group of men with no real background in law or medicine, but blessed with a strong personal interest in women’s bodies, have quietly influenced all of the major anti-abortion legislation over the past several years. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops may be one of the quietest, yet most powerful lobbies on Capitol Hill, with political allies that have enabled them to roll back decades of law and precedent.
Over the past two years the GOP-controlled House of Representatives has launched one of the most extreme assaults on women's choice the U.S. has seen in decades. Republicans voted twice to slash federal family planning funds for low-income women, moved to prevent women from using their own money to buy insurance plans that cover abortion, introduced legislation that would force women to have ultrasounds before receiving an abortion and, most recently, passed a bill that will allow hospitals to refuse to perform emergency abortions for women with life-threatening pregnancy complications.

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/14/how_the_catholic_church_masterminded_the_supreme_courts_hobby_lobby_debacle/

How the Catholic Church masterminded the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby debacle


It was the Catholic Church, more specifically the U.S. Catholic bishops’ conference, that largely engineered Hobby Lobby to block the legitimization of contraception as a standard health insurance benefit—a last ditch effort to prevent by law what it couldn’t prevent from the pulpit: women from using birth control.
The Catholic bishops’ interest in “conscience clauses” that would allow employers to opt out of reproductive health care services began in earnest in the late 1990s, with the increased viability at the state and national levels of contraceptive equity measures designed to ensure that health plans covered prescription contraceptives like the Pill just like other prescription medications. For years, insurers had omitted contraceptives from prescription drug plans—the only entire class of drugs routinely and explicitly excluded—which made women’s out-of-pocket medical expenses some 70 percent higher than men’s. Measures to ensure contraceptive equity had been stalled by male legislators and social conservatives who asserted that employers and insurers shouldn’t be forced to pay for what they called a “lifestyle” choice, not a health care need. Despite that fact that nearly all women use contraceptives at some point in their lives—98 percent, according to government surveys—and that at any given moment two-thirds of women of child-bearing age are using a contraceptive method, the implication was that fertility management was frivolous or immoral and that “other people” shouldn’t be forced to pay for it.

I could go on... And on.

[Drahthaardogs]

149. You could and you would still be wrong.

It is not a lobby. It is MEMBERS who are loyal to the Magesteriium. IF you cannot see the difference, you will never understand the Catholic mindset. If you do not understand it, you can never bring about change.

There are 1.2 BILLION Catholics in the world. The Church grows every year (despite what you hear), at about 2%. They don't need a lobby. The faithful will take their marching orders from the Pope. Here in America, they will vote as their religion says that they should.

[PeaceNikki]

150. Oh, I understand it. They are bullies who try to stomp all over the minority.

[Drahthaardogs]

152. Um, no. It is much more than that.

Jerry Falwell is a bully trying to gain power and money (at least he did). The Church is something entirely different. Completely different. It is complicated. It is complex. It has lots and lots of problems. It also has the faithful and it brings them joy and hope and aspirations. A dichotomy. An archaic institution that translates poorly into the modern world that still serves as a beacon of hope and light for many.

Trying to water down the Church into one or two bullet points is just nonsensical. Most of the anti-Catholic rhetoric on DU comes from those who have no firsthand experience with Catholicism.

[PeaceNikki]

100. Millions.

http://www.hrc.org/nomexposed/section/the-catholic-hierarchys-devotion-to-fighting-marriage-equality

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/29/how_the_catholic_church_broke_congress/

http://griid.org/2011/11/22/new-report-on-religious-groups-and-political-lobbying/

[treestar]

107. And it's funny there is no consideration of Catholic voters

Just the money, as if that counts more than the voters.

It's the voters who vote Republican because they are so anti-abortion. I have those in my family. Catholics are otherwise naturally left wing when it comes to economic issues. The church gets them so riled up about abortion they vote against that. Thus Francis doing this has some effect of showing abortion isn't the only issue in the world and not unforgivable. So it's overall a positive thing.

[beam me up scottie]

131. "So it's overall a positive thing."???

Pope Francis Calls Abortion 'Horrific' In 'State Of The World' Address

VATICAN CITY, Jan 13 (Reuters) - Pope Francis, whom conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church have accused of not speaking out forcefully enough against abortion, on Monday called the practice "horrific".

The pope made his toughest remarks to date on abortion in his yearly address to diplomats accredited to the Vatican, a speech known as his "State of the World" address.

"It is horrific even to think that there are children, victims of abortion, who will never see the light of day," he said in a section of the speech about the rights of children around the world.

Since his election in March, the pope, while showing no signs of changing the Church's position against abortion, has not spoken out against it as sternly or as repeatedly as his predecessors Pope Benedict XVI and the late John Paul II.

Both of those popes often delivered sermons against abortion, which the Church considers murder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/13/pope-francis-abortion_n_4587846.html

[treestar]

135. I was referring to his recent actions

that are mentioned in the OP.

[beam me up scottie]

136. Forgiving the women he accused of committing "horrific" crimes against their children

isn't a positive thing, imo.

He's still saying they're murderers who need forgiveness.

[treestar]

137. From where he comes from

it's something not done by other Popes. In his world view, it's at least consistent with forgiveness. A positive step for him rather than for humanity perhaps.

[Arugula Latte]

114. They sank a shitload of money into Prop 8 in California.

Last edited Mon May 11, 2015, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)

You are delusional if you think representatives of the RCC don't lobby and buy off politicians.

[PeaceNikki]

120. but but but they don't hire corporate lobbying firms so it clearly means nothing.

or something.

I can't even believe someone on DU would have the gall to claim that the RCC doesn't 'lobby'. That's damn near one of the stupidest fucking things I have ever read here. And there has been a LOT of stupid shit.

[beam me up scottie]

122. They did it by lying about my posts.

By claiming I said the church had a "formal lobby" they get to impale that straw man and strut around crowing about how they proved I was wrong.

But when you can't defend the church honestly just ignore all the links we provided and grasp that straw!

[Drahthaardogs]

153. NO they didn't

The Knights of Columbus spent that money. The Knights are not official representatives of the Church. They are only members.

[beam me up scottie]

121. Yes, they do.

Just because they don't have a "formal lobby" with an official title like 'RCC's War on Women and Lgbt People LLC' doesn't mean they don't spend millions doing their dirty work.

The Church does NOT pay lobbyists here in America

I never said that. So you can stop lying about my posts.


The church doesn't need apologists like you to defend their abysmal practice of advocating against human rights in this country.

They're a big hate group and they can fight their own battles.

[MADem]

60. I think people are harshing on the hypocrisy a bit....

That was only a "sin" because a bunch of well-fed guys in dresses and silly hats decided that was the case. Those same well-fed guys used to tell people that they shouldn't eat meat on Friday, and they sold "forgiveness" in the form of Indulgences to the wealthy to fill the church's coffers. They can turn what is a "sin" on and off like a light switch. You can be married, and POOOOOF--you're not! You get an "annulment" -- not a divorce--and who cares if those ten kids you had are now little "bastards" (that's for you jury folks).

Sure, his decision is nice for those who feel a need to get "absolution" for something that their Good Lord Jesus never once even mentioned, I suppose, but I have to stay on the side of the people who say the choice in that matter is personal and belongs to the woman. Bottom line is this--not your womb? Not your problem. Not your business!

Hell, we have a bit in our Constitution about not being forced to quarter soldiers in our homes against our will--it seems only fair to me that women shouldn't be forced to grow fetuses in their bodies against their will. And it's no one's business but the one with the organs capable of doing that hosting.

[NaturalHigh]

63. I don't disagree with what you are saying.

My point, though, is that this will provide comfort to a lot of people who made the difficult choice to have an abortion and have felt some lingering guilt over their decisions.

[MADem]

65. I really do take your point.

I feel sad that there's just so damn much guilt floating around over this issue. There's no need, really.

[malthaussen]

133. Well, after all MADem, the Catholic Church has been making bank...

... on unnecessary guilt for a lot of years now.

-- Mal

[MADem]

138. Yes -- isn't it funny how the concept of "morality" has morphed over the years.

That's what's been their downfall, those "uppity women" making their own decisions and refusing to be submissive and have all the children that God sends them (like they're FEDEX packages, or something).

Fifty years ago, the Catholic families I knew had five, six, seven, nine, even as much as twelve kids. Nowadays, the few church-going families I know have two kids, maybe three. I just can't believe that they're not enjoying some pharmaceutical as opposed to divine intervention in preventing all those pregnancies!

[malthaussen]

139. Does abstinence make the heart grow fonder?

I disagree a little with your equation of this to sale of indulgences. Although the device was offered after the Reformation, it was quite popular before, when the Church had no competition for communicants. It was a naked ploy to further fill the Church's overflowing coffers, keeping people happy with the Church was not a concern.

The artlcle says nothing about compensation for the forgiveness. You could argue that the Pope's measure is designed to obtain communicants, and thus indirectly add to their coffers, but I think that is a stretch. It is obviously a move designed to reconcile some women with the Church, and with any luck will soothe some damaged psyches. Hell, it may even be designed to soothe damaged psyches, although I admit it is hard to believe that even Francis would be that charitable.

On the other hand, it certainly is prostituting doctrine to expediency, and in that resembles the sale of indulgences. On the third hand, the Church is supposed to be in the business of forgiving sins, so moving abortion to the less-than-mortal category could reflect this.

-- Mal

[MADem]

140. Oh, it's a brand-growing exercise, though, make no mistake.

It's not a direct way to fill those coffers, but if you bring one back, others will follow--be they friends, relations or offspring. And butts in the pews translates to nickels in the boxes (and you'll be saved).

As for "prostituting doctrine" I gotta say, they've been doing that for centuries. If the faith is actually based on that guy who wandered around telling people to love one another and help little kids and take care of the old and the sick, the guys (and it's always guys) making proclamations in his name have come a long, long way from his message. He wasn't doing the "guilt trip" at all--he was just telling people to be nice to one another, to help one another, and to not be assholes. I think they've been doing that whole "This is what the Big J woulda wanted" routine since the poor guy was hauled down from the cross.

That said, I see that Francisco isn't perfect, but I don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. He's trying. He can't move a mountain with a mighty shove. He's just going to keep nudging at it, though, and hopefully the guy who comes after him will do the same, and the one after him...and then maybe, one day, it'll be a woman in the goofy pointed gold hat job.

If they'd get back to making the religion all about what the Big J Guy said about being nice and kind and helpful and thoughtful, people would likely flock to it in droves. They make it too complicated with all the finger-wagging and Thou Shalt NOT crap.

[malthaussen]

141. Oh, but even the Gospels are full of that.

And I won't even throw in the Gnostic ones. It is pretty hard to reconcile sayings such as "If the eye offends you, pluck it out" with "love one another." As you say, Simon and they boyez (and some of the girlez, although the boyez were good at writing out their contribution) were prostituting the words of Mr ben-Joseph before the body was cold. You ever read the Gospel of Mary Magdalene? Incomplete, but the ending is worth the price of admission as far as the Ring of Truth is concerned. Simon (Peter) is ragging on Mary Magdalene, who has claimed to have received a vision from the Man. Levi (Matthew, always the level-headed one) says, basically, "Simon, you're a woman-hating hothead. Put a sock in it." Love it, just love it.

Speaking of Peter, his wife is thought to have founded her own sect of fellow-travellers based on her interpretations of JC's teachings. (which might explain his being a woman-hating hothead, although whether the chicken or the egg came first is a question) I think if we could have a reliable history of those times, it would make for great soap opera. Shame so much has been lost.

-- Mal

[Laffy Kat]

76. Because it is condescending and insulting.

And this is the church that institutionalized child rape and molestation. So nice they are "forgiving" women who have had some control over their bodies. Please.

[peace13]

112. The first thing that comes to my mind is....

That the Pope should concentrate on the sins of his child molesting priests and then after about a hundred years of asking forgiveness for those he can begin to think about the sins of others.

[lostnfound]

38. For some women this will be a psychological burden lifted.

Growing up in a catholic family, my parents were not allowed to be full participants in the church because my dad was divorced. They sought an annulment of his first marriage, I think, and it was denied. To be absolved, they were told that he would basically need to abandon his three young children and my mother to go back to his first wife, or perhaps live as "brother and sister".

They still raised us Catholic including education. But I think they felt some shame or unworthiness. After my dad died, my mom was "able to be forgiven."
For my sweet angel of a mother, who was kind and tough, loving and forgiving, I am happy for this announcement. She had no abortion, but divorce was the parallel of the day.

I am not a churchgoer, but for some women this will be a comfort.

[HockeyMom]

46. This was one reason why I left the Catholic Church

as a teenager. My Aunt was divorced and remarried. She was married all of one year to a man who beat her, ran around, drank, and eventually just left never to be heard from again. She divorced him and remarried, but was considered an "adulteress" and my cousin a bastard from her remarriage according to the Catholic Church.

My Aunt and Uncle had one of the happiest marriage I ever saw growing up. Far more than my own parents. My Uncle called her his Baby in his 60s When she passed away, he was heart broken, and did not live much longer after her.

I felt this way at 15 years old about the Catholic Church. 60+ years later my views are the same as when I was a teen.

[Dawson Leery]

54. Only an evil institution would say such slanderous things about an abused woman.

Last edited Sun May 10, 2015, 11:21 PM - Edit history (1)

The Pope should be begging for forgiveness for the horrific crimes his Church has committed throughout it's 1700 year history.

Never forget the 300,000 + babies that the Church's hospitals stole from the opponents of Franco's regime.

[Person 2713]

87. + 1

[StevieM]

119. Do you have any links to articles about that period? I am very interested in what happened in Spain

under Franco regarding stolen babies.

I knew that it was a hard place to be an unwed mother during the Baby Scoop Era. I didn't realize that they went after the children of opponents of the regime.

[Dawson Leery]

154. The Lost Children of Francoism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_children_of_Francoism


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15335899


http://www.npr.org/2012/12/14/167053609/families-of-spains-stolen-babies-seek-answers-and-reunions

[treestar]

106. I agree - coming from where the Pope comes from

This is a positive thing.

And as you've shown, things have changed over time, even for the Catholic Church. It's interesting that it is not mentioned in the Bible - there's no scripture they can point to. The society the Bible was written for contemporaneously needed people, which explained the bans on masterbation and homosexuality. They didn't want to waste any sperm whatsoever. Abortion may have been something those people of that time didn't even think of as the child was always wanted. And they wouldn't have good methods.

[Mariana]

116. They only have that psychological burden in the first place

because the church put it there. It's the church that says abortion is murder. It's the church that says contraception is evil. It's the church that says people who are divorced and remarry - and their spouses - are adulterers. It's the church that says homosexuals are an abomination, and that same-sex marriage is of the devil. Etc.

[Solly Mack]

48. Snort

[beam me up scottie]

51. Oh, c'mon, Solly.

If you admit you were wrong to murder your child we'll forgive you and let you back into our abusive boy's club.

That's not offensive at all.

[Solly Mack]

66. Do I also get a pat on the head?

Because I really need that condescending pat on the head to feel sanctified.

[beam me up scottie]

67. I'm sure that can be arranged.

Then you can get back to scrubbing their toilets.

Can't afford to let women get too uppity in the church.

[Solly Mack]

70. I once scooped a fetus out of a toilet after a friend miscarried while...going.

Does the toilet need absolution?

[beam me up scottie]

72. Maybe we should all save our used pads/tampons etc and mail them to the pope.

Just in case.

[Solly Mack]

75. Oh, it's too late for me. I got that sucker yanked out years ago.

I didn't just orphan all those eggs - I demolished the factory.

[beam me up scottie]

77. All those cute little bebbies.

[Solly Mack]

81. I dunno. Some of'em might have been ugly.

[Orsino]

96. "Come on back, ladies, so you can disappoint us again."

[Warpy]

53. Catholic women I know who had abortions

will tell these guys to go straight to the hell the church has made for women.

The only thing any of them felt was relief that it was over.

Now that all unbaptized babies go to heaven instead of Limbo, there is no reason left to be against abortion. I guess the church hasn't quite thought that one through yet.

[Arugula Latte]

55. I have a message for Pope Awesome:

[HERVEPA]

62. The pope can go fuck himself.

[Lordquinton]

69. these women don't need forgiveness

The pope has far more to beg forgiveness for, the suffering he pushes on many is shameful, and to think people defend him. It's sickening.

[undeterred]

74. Men who decided to never have sex for the rest of their lives

are being sent to do what?

[okaawhatever]

78. LOL. Good one. nt

[beam me up scottie]

80. LMAO! +1

[Major Nikon]

84. The pope says that about 1 in 50 priests are pedophiles

So perhaps not all

[notadmblnd]

83. Wow! The church must be desperate for members

Forgiving special sins and everything. Someone please remind me, which commandment was it that stated "thou shalt not have an abortion"?

[Warren DeMontague]

93. I really think the organization that has spent hundreds of millions defending child abusing priests

as well as engaging in potentially criminal international conspiracy to help some of the escape justice (like the letter scandal which, quite likely, had something to do with the previous pontiff's unprecedented resignation) really ought to stop pretending it has any moral authority whatsoever when it comes to the personal health, sexual, and reproductive choices of consenting adults.

[beam me up scottie]

95. Ah, yes. Crimen Sollicitationis.

Another uncomfortable issue catholics don't like to talk about.

Sex crimes and the Vatican

A secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church is examined by Panorama.

Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

...

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm

Crimen Sollicitationis: An interpretation

Father Tom Doyle is a canon lawyer. He had a diplomatic career with the Vatican but was sacked after he criticised the church's handling of child abuse. He gives this interpretation of Crimen Sollicitationis in the Panorama film

Cardinal Ratzinger, now as Pope, could tomorrow get up and say: 'Here's the policy: full disclosure to the civil authorities, absolute isolation and dismissal of any accused and proven and convicted clerics, complete openness and transparency, complete openness of all financial situations, stop all barriers to the legal process and completely co-operate with the civil authorities everywhere.'

He could do that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5392338.stm

The current pope could do the same thing, but he won't.

[SidDithers]

99. I can't tell you how good it is to have you posting regularly again...

Yours is a voice of sanity and reason that was sorely missed when you weren't here much.



Sid

[beam me up scottie]

125. Aw, Sid...

You made me blush.

Right back atcha mister --

[99Forever]

101. A special thank you to the pope.

Thanks for reminding me of the way you treated my Mother when she had the audacity to divorce the brute who beat her, her kids, and the dog to a pulp on a regular basis. When your "church" excommunicated her, it made me aware of just what a bunch of evil bastards ran your fucked up institution and turned me to a more truthful life as an atheist.

WTG asshole.

[PeaceNikki]

102. That's awful. I'm so sorry that happened to her and thousands of other women.

Imagine all the women who stayed in abusive situations so they wouldn't be abandoned by their church.

[99Forever]

105. I'll never let go of what they did.

It gave me an insight to why religions are actually in balance, a huge negative on the people. They should be taxed out of existence. The world would be a much better place.

[PeaceNikki]

109. I agree.

I grew up in the hugely oppressive and conservative WELS church. They abandoned/expelled my best friend when she got pregnant her sophomore year of high school. We left when my mother was literally told to sit down, STFU and let the MEN deal with it when she was fighting for asbestos removal in our school gymnasium.

My extended family is still VERY involved in the WELS. Last fall my uncle passed away and I attended his funeral at their church. There was a receiving line that extended to the narthex. My eyes wandered onto the bulletin board full of announcements and chick tracts type materials. One jumped out at me. It was titled "Liberalism: Its Cause and Cure : The Poisoning of American Christianity and the Antidote".

Sigh.

Yeah, it was advertising a book written by a Lutheran pastor. It discusses the evil poisoning of "liberalism, evolution, the charismatic heresy and feminism" on American society. I didn't get a chance to discover what he thinks is "the cure".

I didn't stay for the service since clearly 'my kind' is not welcome.

[ucrdem]

117. Nobody excommunicates divorcées.

Are you sure your facts are correct?

[PeaceNikki]

118. They absolutely used to. My grandfather was excommunicated for divorce in the late 40's.

[ucrdem]

123. Okay but divorcée is a feminine noun

not to be picky . . .

[99Forever]

144. It was 1958. I was 4 years old.

And I have my facts correct. In my Irish Catholic family there nuns and priests, in several generations.

[beam me up scottie]

126. I am so sorry.

My best friend's mom stayed with her abusive husband for years because she feared excommunication.

It's just another way to control women.

I'm glad you escaped.

[99Forever]

142. In the end it had a net positive affect.

It, as you say, let me escape the lunacy that is organized religion and left me abhorring violence, particularly that perpetrated on far too many women by brutes. I was 4 at the time and it was 1958. My Mother was an incredible woman who went on to work her way from a secretary job to Director of an American Red Cross Blood Program for a 6 state area. She was my hero. We lost her in Sept. 2001. Mothers Day always hits me kind of hard any more.

[beam me up scottie]

146. Your mom was a courageous woman.

My condolences for your loss.

We never really get used to living in a world without our mom.

[Bluenorthwest]

104. Lots of DUers who claim to be Pro Choice and Pro equality have loudly endorsed this man.

I wonder if they think others have not noticed their contradictory positions on this.

[Xyzse]

108. I understand where many are coming from, particularly those who have no relation to the church.

In regards to what he is saying, I believe this is adressed to those who are in the catholic faith who feels left out.

People derive meaning in different things, and some want the feeling of acceptance back in to their faith.

This also applies to those who has gotten divorced who feel disconnected from their church.

I don't actually see this as a big deal, except for those who feel the need to still be part of the church through various reasons. For them, if this gives them a measure of peace or acceptance, to them, this might be big.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

132. Does this require a visit with a priest? ...

... or can we order Dispensations on the Vatican web site?

[malthaussen]

134. Wonder what the pennance will be.

Somehow, I would think that within the strictures of the Church, a couple of Hail Marys isn't going to cut it.

-- Mal