Approximately 168 true Dems in the House ag TPA- one of them posted here yesterday!

[RiverLover]

In case you missed it,

One Future: “Nothing But Cheap Labor and Debt Slavery”
Alan Grayson(D-FL)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251406944

Thank you Congressman Grayson for Standing for People!

I'd love to know who the House Dems are, who plan on voting for the TPA...

...Representative James Clyburn, a member of the House Democratic leadership, said this week he did not know whether there were even 20 votes out of a total of 188 Democrats in the House for fast-track authority, also known as Trade Promotion Authority (TPA)....

Boehner: Clinton needs to get Democrats to support Asia-Pacific deal

[RiverLover]

1. Re: the 2nd article above, I think its very strange to have the republican leader calling on Hillary

to help him out.

Very blatant of him. They usually try to hide that conservatives stick together, even when on different teams.

[djean111]

3. It is getting more and more clear that there is really only one team of Conservatives.

They just have different letters on their jerseys.

[Buzz Clik]

5. It is getting more and more clear, that there is no team of progressives.

They wear the same jerseys, but they play only for their own interests. Everyone else is an opponent, no matter what jersey they are wearing.

[djean111]

8. So Progressives should champion Conservative causes that they feel are not in the best interests of

Americans? Just to be good little sports?

Oh, and Progressives are always treated as opponents, within the Democratic Party, and, of course, by the GOP.

[Buzz Clik]

9. "Progressives should champion Conservative causes " You read my post and decided I was saying that?

Why?

And, yes, progressives are always treated as opponents, even within the Democratic party and even by other progressives.

[djean111]

10. Actually, your post stated that there is no team of Progressives, but that the non-existent team

somehow all wear the same jerseys, or something like that.

It is getting more and more clear, that there is no team of progressives.
Really? No team?

They wear the same jerseys, but they play only for their own interests. Everyone else is an opponent, no matter what jersey they are wearing.
So Progressives are not a team, but they have jerseys? Or do you mean that Progressives have jerseys with a "D", but won't espouse all "D" causes, if they think the "D" causes are not in their best interests? That the "D" is more important than anything else?

[Buzz Clik]

13. Why don't you answer my question first...

Then I'll answer your questions.

[sabrina 1]

16. It's also becoming more clear that Obama and the Republicans are together

on a Trade Deal that a vast majority of Democrats oppose, and in order to pass it, he is dependent on Republicans. And a handful of people who call themselves Democrats.

This will let us know who needs to be replaced in our party as soon as they come up for reelection. Or maybe they know this and are planning to retire with the promise of a very lucrative lobbying job for one of the Corporations they are working for now, but at a lesser salary.

[Buzz Clik]

18. The "vast majority of Democrats" have only a vague notion of what's in the package.

But they hate it anyway. I'm more than willing to oppose or support the deal once we know the details.

Fear of the unknown and instant hysteria. It's what we do.

[fasttense]

20. Really? You believe waiting for the 150,000 pages of legalese to be released,

to approve/disapprove with a majority vote of 485 politicians or pass anyway, before considering the ramifications of another "free" trade agreement is a good idea? Do you really think you could understand 150,000 pages of legalese in 60 days? Do you think 485 people could get a clear understand of those pages in 60 days? Don't you think we have enough information on all the other "free" trade agreements that Obama and others have passed already to understand the gist of it?

Do you really think a document prepared in secret with mostly corporate tools, lawyers and lobbyists putting it together will be a positive thing for citizens, workers and consumers?

[Buzz Clik]

25. If you think you are putting forward these arguments for the first time, you are mistaken.

Here on DU this week, you are probably number 100 or more.

One twist on this is the number of pages. You know for a fact that the agreement is 150,000 pages long? You can document that, of course.

Yours is the classic, "I don't know what's in it, but I know I don't like it" argument. It's based on nothing but fear.

[sabrina 1]

23. It's fear of the 'known' in this case, thanks to Wikileaks and the few hints our Reps

who have caught a glimpse of it under extreme restrictions, who have leaked a small part of it.

So, what we KNOW is that if Congress passes this they have handed over part of our sovereignty as a nation, to Global Corporations.

Unless you trust these Corporations to do what is best for the American people, and to represent the American people better than our own elected reps, the that alone is enough knowledge for the American people to have to simply say 'What? Are you Crazy?' and end this charade that this has anything to do with people in ANY of the countries involved in the Secret Deal.

[Buzz Clik]

27. I'm sorry, but you'll need to explain this:

So, what we KNOW is that if Congress passes this they have handed over part of our sovereignty as a nation, to Global Corporations.

That sounds like Tea Party paranoia. Care to document that for the unitiated?

[sabrina 1]

30. There have been multiple OPs explaining this on DU alone. If you have ignored them I

am not wasting any time trying to explain what so many have already.

Just google it. I did because I really did want to know. I assume that someone who has not done so, doesn't want to know for whatever reason. Which sounds like Republican willful blindness since they too have been told, but clearly put their fingers in their ears. And are supporting Obama, which make anyone wonder about this entire disastrous deal.

[Buzz Clik]

32. You really believe, even though you have not read the document, ...

... that TPP will force the US to give up part of its sovereignty?

Yes or no will be fine.


EDIT: Sorry, but this sounds so very much like the Texas crazies being convinced that Obama is giving Texas to the Chinese.

[sabrina 1]

41. I read the leaks. How about you? Yes, yes we know, DUers, Grayson, Warren and 166

other elected Dems are all just like the Texas crazies and the teabaggers, etc etc.

Have you read the leaks? I know nothing other than what has been leaked, in fact, there were two leaks. What was leaked alone should be thrown in the garbage and would be if Democrats had their way.

But it's Multi-Nationals who are running this show. The question is why is Obama fighting so hard for them when his own party knows he's wrong and have told him so.

I guess your position is that Big Corps and Republicans are who we should trust on this.

Dems are like 'Texas crazies'.

That's quite a position to take on a Democratic forum.

[Buzz Clik]

42. I guess I just have to repeat this over and over and over:

I don't know what's in the deal. I won't know until it's made public. Until then, I have no opinion.

It is so damned offensive to constantly have "can't we wait and see" immediately translated into "I guess your position is that Big Corps and Republicans are who we should trust on this."

But I stand by my comment that the paranoid reactions to this of Obama turning the country over to the Chinese or whoever are borderline nuts.

[sabrina 1]

43. Wait and see? AFTER nothing can be done to fix what is wrong? AFTER Congress gives up

its right to amend legislation, to add to it on behalf of the American people?

So you're FOR trusting Multi Corps to have written legislation that will benefit the American people.

You AGREE with Republicans that Multi Corps know what is best for the American people.

You haven't read the leaks? You didn't say.

How do you like the fact that a Global Corps doing business in the US can sue the American people if he cannot pollute our environment according to our laws, and claim that OUR LAWS are causing him to lose money, so we the American people must compensate this Global Corp FOR OUR OWN LAWS.

And how do you like that these lawsuits will be conducted in 'special international tribunals' handled by Corporate Lawyers and judges which pretty much guarantees that the American people will be sued to death for the next decade or so UNLESS WE CHANGE OUR LAWS.

And that is one tiny piece of what we know, no thanks to Obama who wants us to 'trust him'.

And Net Neutrality, but if you didn't read the leaks, I can't help you.

You go ahead and just trust those Global Corporations to do what's best for you.

[Buzz Clik]

44. If it is flawed, it is rejected.

This is the route Obama has taken. It's neither complicated nor sinister.

So you're FOR trusting Multi Corps to have written legislation that will benefit the American people.

This bullshit again. Why? Don't answer -- I'm not interesting in plowing the same plot over and over again.

Your paranoia is palpable.

[sabrina 1]

45. Are you for Fast Tracking this bill or not? THAT is what is at issue here.

[Kermitt Gribble]

39. So how do you explain the republican support for the package? eom

[sendero]

4. Sure..

... Democrats should "work with" Republicans since they have "worked with" us for so long.

Fuck Boner. The very fact that Republicans want this so much should be all a Democrat needs to know. All ANYONE needs to know.

[RiverLover]

6. Bingo. And the posters here sticking up for TPA/TPP are mimicking this guy to a T~

May 06, 2015, 12:00 pm
What is truly at stake with TPA and TPP?

By Amb. Clayton Yeutter
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/241112-what-is-truly-at-stake-with-tpa-and-tpp

Yeutter served as U.S. Trade Representative under President Ronald Reagan (1985-89) and was the 23rd U.S. Secretary of Agriculture under President George H.W. Bush (1989-91). He earlier had served as president and CEO of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (1978-85). He is currently a senior adviser with the international law firm of Hogan Lovells.

(I could swear some of them copy & pasted from this Reagan/Bush guy).

[cheapdate]

31. "the posters" should be "the poster" (not plural)

and "sticking up for TPA/TPP" should be "reserving judgement on the TPP".

Maybe you think the "reserving judgement" line of thought is naive, disingenuous, or just plain foolish. But if you allow him or her the presumption of sincerity, as is required for civil debate, then reserving judgement is NOT the same thing as "sticking up" for the TPP.

[sendero]

33. "Fast track"..

.. is incompatible with "reserving judgement". The whole purpose of "fast track" is to prevent any changes and to push it through in a hurry. You might think 90 days is a long time, in a legislative body busy with other work, it is not.

Reserving judgment is just shorthand for "push it through" and after its done then you can cry about it.

No, no fucking fast track for this sweeping, wide-ranging bit of bullshit.

[cheapdate]

35. At no time did Buzz_Clik endorse or defend fast-track.

He/she never mentioned it directly or indirectly, or even implied a position on it.

[RiverLover]

36. You are the only one mentioning this particular poster.

What's up with that?

[cheapdate]

40. I assumed "here" referred to present company,

Last edited Sun May 10, 2015, 07:04 PM - Edit history (1)

i.e. - people present in this discussion. As Buzz_Clik is the only poster "here" who could in any way be construed as "sticking up for TPA/TPP" I assumed you were referring to him or her.

(Edit : also, being the only one doesn't say anything about whether I'm right or wrong.)

[RiverLover]

38. No, I mean posters, plural, at DU who are mimicking repubs. /nt

[kacekwl]

21. Big fat BINGO !

[octoberlib]

2. K&R!

[RiverLover]

7. Thanks octoberlib!

[LuvNewcastle]

11. Thank the Gods for them.

I'm even calling my GOP Rep. and Senators about this. They are all rather independent, so you never know how they'll vote on something like this. If you're represented by Republicans, contact them too. I don't think it's a waste of time.

[RiverLover]

15. Great idea, we really all should!!

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/US-Congress.shtml#Contact_Your_Representative_in_the_U.S._Congress

[Enthusiast]

12. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

Thanks, RiverLover.

Could you explain the meaning of your new avatar?

[RiverLover]

14. Warren, Standing ^Up for People

Do you like it? Its Dragonfli's graphic artwork.

A friend asked me to create an arrow based avatar for Elizabeth Warren
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12776609#post19

Thanks again Dragonfli!!

[Enthusiast]

17. I love Elizabeth. Thanks.

[Oilwellian]

19. Oh, wow! That's a bigger number than I realized

I find this extremely encouraging. I was afraid Obama's whipping for TPP votes, (why does he do that only for what corporations want?) would help him reach the number he needs for passage. I would love to know who the Dems are that support this sickening trade agreement, so we can primary their asses out of the party.

K&R

[RiverLover]

26. Exactly. That's why I want to know who they are as well.

I guess we'll find out soon enough!

[bonniebgood]

22. It seem to me that this TPA is a jaint fu*k-up as the Iraq war, "we" voted

on approval because "we believed" the president excuse. How can anyone dem or repug
vote yea or nay on something that is 'secret'? they way out excuse is: we believed the president.

[RiverLover]

28. Yep. Believing our presidents is getting US in a whole lot of trouble on some issues.

The media aids & abets in that too.

[wolfie001]

24. Tennessee Ernie Ford

"16 Tons"........truer words were never sung. Not much has changed sadly. All Dems should fight this!

[RiverLover]

29. Googled that, it still fits, sadly!

And you are so right, all Dems should fight this!!

[tularetom]

34. I'm not smart enough or patient enough to read through and digest all the available information

So I have to rely on the opinions of people I trust and respect.

And I trust and respect Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and Alan Grayson one hell of a lot more than McConnell, Boner, and Nike.

[RiverLover]

37. +1 /nt

[tritsofme]

46. Nice of his staffer to drop by.