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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSy Hersh Stunner: The Killing of Osama bin Laden
Hersch exposes a series of self-serving lies, as well as double crossings, on the part of the President regarding the killing of bin Laden. Bin Laden's location was not discovered by our crack CIA, but by a walk-in tip from a Pakistani official, he wasn't 'hiding out' in Abbottabad, but had been held in custody by Pakistan since 2006, the Pakistani intelligence services were fully aware of the raid in advance, and even made sure the Seal helicopters would be able to fly in over Pakistani airspace without triggering an alert, bin Laden was not armed and there was no firefight with the Seals, the story about removing garbage bags full of computers and Al Qaeda operational materials was a fiction concocted to justify killing bin Laden rather than taking him into custody, since he was no longer operationally relevant -- it was a premeditated hit. And the President, in making an immediate public announcement of the killing over the objections of Secretary Gates, violated an agreement that had been made with two Pakistani intelligence officials who had cooperated with the raid and without whose efforts the raid would not have been possible. And there's more. From the London Review of Books:
Seymour M. Hersh
< . . . . >
Five days after the raid the Pentagon press corps was provided with a series of videotapes that were said by US officials to have been taken from a large collection the Seals had removed from the compound, along with as many as 15 computers. Snippets from one of the videos showed a solitary bin Laden looking wan and wrapped in a blanket, watching what appeared to be a video of himself on television. An unnamed official told reporters that the raid produced a treasure trove the single largest collection of senior terrorist materials ever, which would provide vital insights into al-Qaidas plans. The official said the material showed that bin Laden remained an active leader in al-Qaida, providing strategic, operational and tactical instructions to the group He was far from a figurehead [and] continued to direct even tactical details of the groups management and to encourage plotting from what was described as a command-and-control centre in Abbottabad. He was an active player, making the recent operation even more essential for our nations security, the official said. The information was so vital, he added, that the administration was setting up an inter-agency task force to process it: He was not simply someone who was penning al-Qaida strategy. He was throwing operational ideas out there and he was also specifically directing other al-Qaida members.
These claims were fabrications: there wasnt much activity for bin Laden to exercise command and control over. The retired intelligence official said that the CIAs internal reporting shows that since bin Laden moved to Abbottabad in 2006 only a handful of terrorist attacks could be linked to the remnants of bin Ladens al-Qaida. We were told at first, the retired official said, that the Seals produced garbage bags of stuff and that the community is generating daily intelligence reports out of this stuff. And then we were told that the community is gathering everything together and needs to translate it. But nothing has come of it. Every single thing they have created turns out not to be true. Its a great hoax like the Piltdown man. The retired official said that most of the materials from Abbottabad were turned over to the US by the Pakistanis, who later razed the building. The ISI took responsibility for the wives and children of bin Laden, none of whom was made available to the US for questioning.
Why create the treasure trove story? the retired official said. The White House had to give the impression that bin Laden was still operationally important. Otherwise, why kill him? A cover story was created that there was a network of couriers coming and going with memory sticks and instructions. All to show that bin Laden remained important.
In July 2011, the Washington Post published what purported to be a summary of some of these materials. The storys contradictions were glaring. It said the documents had resulted in more than four hundred intelligence reports within six weeks; it warned of unspecified al-Qaida plots; and it mentioned arrests of suspects who are named or described in emails that bin Laden received. The Post didnt identify the suspects or reconcile that detail with the administrations previous assertions that the Abbottabad compound had no internet connection. Despite their claims that the documents had produced hundreds of reports, the Post also quoted officials saying that their main value wasnt the actionable intelligence they contained, but that they enabled analysts to construct a more comprehensive portrait of al-Qaida.
< . . . . >
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)His book maybe accurate or maybe not. I seriously he was in DC and Abbottabad at the same time so he did not have first hand knowledge. The most important event is the mission was accomplished.
starroute
(12,977 posts)I've been wondering why you cast so much doubt on the leaks of the Trans Pacific Partnership. Do you sincerely believe that everything official sources say is true and that everything that comes through unconventional channels is unreliable on the face of it?
It's your right to hold that opinion, but I would think it would be difficult to maintain after how many times they've lied to us.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)...in the teeth of withering gunfire, after she personally emptied her rifle, slaughtering a whole bunch of Iraqis before being severly wounded herself.
Oh, wait. It didn't actually happen quite that did it. Her weapon was never actually fired, and the "rescue party" strolled in unopposed.
FarPoint
(12,426 posts)Hersh is a decent man but way out on this one....
snip>
" wasn't 'hiding out' in Abbottabad, but had been held in custody by Pakistan since 2006"....
Absolutely not true. He was in Abbottabad in in the fortress/compound.
starroute
(12,977 posts)Just that he was effectively a Pakistani prisoner and it wasn't his decision to "hide out" there.
FarPoint
(12,426 posts)Bottom line, it required a Special Elite Military Force to extract him.....It appears to me that Hersh took the bait offered by Pakistan to dispense misinformation so Pakistan can "save a little face". Hersh means well but was wanting to hear such a scenario....Pakistan was protecting Osama and feeding the US a tale too.
It was an extremely dangerous operation.
Response to starroute (Reply #41)
PragmaticLiberal This message was self-deleted by its author.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)And simple.
You ask if I believe everything which comes through official channels is true and everything that comes through unofficial channels is unreliable, no not true. I make my opinion on gathering information from different sources, I do not jump in the feeding frenzy and believe something which may fit what I want to hear. You apparently want to believe the leaks, I choose not to, likewise I choose not to believe all statements "officially" given.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Any of them named Curveball by any chance?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Any of them named Rumsfeld by any chance?
We know for a fact that the Pentagon lies as easily and frequently as it breathes.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And yes, it does indeed "smell" a bit like the Jessica Lynch story.
As for sources being unnamed, wtf do you expect? It would take a brave man or women to put their name to that bit of truth-telling.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . When Woodward and Bernstein broke Watergate, the story would have died on the vine.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)we likely, would not be in Iraq.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)I vividly remember the thrilling "animated recreation" ABC News had of the rescue copters making a daring night landing outside her hospital. The courageous special forces commandos bursting through the heavily-defended perimeter, guns blazing. Then the tense search for Private Lynch, knowing that her evil captors could shoot her at any moment. The recovery, the escape from the hospital, the getaway. Oh my! And about three words of it were true: Private Lynch was in that hospital, and she was repatriated with her comrades there. Everything else was so much balloon juice.
The daring raid on the bin Laden compound sounded like much the same thing to me at the time, and I accord Sy Hersh a lot more credibility than the military.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)based on zero facts.
Bucky
(54,041 posts)I'm glad for the scrutiny given any government military operation after the fact. I like Hersch's skepticism. He's a treasure in our anemic democracy.
Smell is a subjective thing and should be left to kitchen matters.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Our government has great contempt for us. We are manipulated as standard MO now.
That is the difference between representative, democratic government and corporate government that manipulates, advertises, and controls for profit.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)He'll leave his field an old fool.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Something like 400 Americans killed in intense fighting in a single day, being covered up by the government? I kind of filed him up there with Jason Leopold at that point...
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)In the other thread on this subject I listed 5 different times when Hersh said the USA was getting ready to attack Iran.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)His name doesn't carry the same weight it once did. Too much random hyberbole in the past decade, for me to take him as seriously.
still_one
(92,330 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Bush was leaving could figure out that he was going to invade Iraq regardless of public support. We talked about it in depth on DU while engaging in dissent.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)American Scripture is sacred.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and gleefully proclaim the truth revealed.
Despite the lack of any evidence beyond "I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows what REALLY happened."
Hersh is a peddler of tinfoil fairy tales, as he has been for the past decade.
still_one
(92,330 posts)just how screwed up Hersh is. 9/11 was reason enough to eliminate bin laden
and if that bothers people because bin laden didn't get his "due process", neither did the victims of 9/11
Cha
(297,503 posts)retired.
still_one
(92,330 posts)markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)what falls from that? That we shouldn't have killed him?
Cha
(297,503 posts)Cha
(297,503 posts)the President "a liar".. he knows he has a built in audience that will lap this up.. like you say. And, ask for more please.
Their opinion and hersh's means less than nothing to me.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)And they have stuck in my craw since long before Sy Hersch said a word.
First is bin Laden's location. As a place for him to have chosen to be it is ridiculous. As a place for Pakistan to be keeping him it is entirely logical.
Second is the conditions in which he was living. Squalor. Bin Laden might well chose to be living simply, but that place was a dump. Had he chosen that location it might be sparsely furnished, but it would nat have been as squalid.
Third is the idea that we would be able to fly a mission across that expanse of Pakistan, in and out, without response from Pakistan if they were not in on it. Ridiculous.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)exclusive.
Sy Hersch warned the nation July, 2002 that the Bushies were gonna attempt to get us into war with Iraq. In the past, his best stories have come from military sources. I am betting this one came from the military, too, and this is why he trusts it enough to go with the story.
Obama needed to win in 2012. Americans wanted Osama dead. This is how politics is played in this country. I still would not go back and vote for Romney, even if everything Hersch writes is true.
still_one
(92,330 posts)party sources, garbage. Saying Obama had to justify the killing of bin Laden, diminishes Mr. Hersh and his credibility.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . and I experienced a certain satisfaction when I heard the news. That is an understandable human emotion in response to news of a brutal killer meeting his end. But I believe there is very good reason to be wary of this kind of emotion as a justification for something as serious as a pre-meditated assassination. One of this country's greatest examples of leadership in the world occurred after WW II, when the U.S. insisted upon trials for Nazi war criminals. It would have been easy enough just to line them up and shoot them, and I doubt anybody would have raised much of an objection. Bin Laden's crime was heinous, but the notion that 9-11 was so uniquely horrible in human history that it justifies all norms of international law, merely because doing so is emotionally satisfying on some level, is positively dangerous. Indeed, it is that kind of thinking that led much of this country to unquestioningly follow Bush down the rabbit hole into Iraq. Here I would paraphrase John McCain, in what is perhaps the only statement he ever made that I agreed with: it is not about who bin Laden is, it is about who we are.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)You'd think he would stop listening to half-baked, crazy stories from people who were not there. Last time he did this, he made an ass of himself.
Guess he's going to go out the way Pierre Salinger did--with a completely disgraced legacy.
No fool like an old fool.
Why he thinks that it matters if the compound had an internet connection or not is just one pathetic example of someone trying too hard to make shit fit. Everyone knows that AQ ran everything by courier, on discs and later thumb drives. Hell, they used the "draft" function of Yahoo mail to pass messages that were picked up at net cafes. They did everything simply and very cleverly. He's looking for sophistication when that was never a hallmark of their communication strategy.
This belongs in the CREATIVE SPECULATION forum.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)the U.S. to fly in and kill him with the understanding that the U.S. would cover up the complicity of Pakistan. I'm having a hard time working up outrage about this even if it is true.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)Osama is dead, we had something to do with it. I'm certainly not going to buy any government story as to how it happened hook line and sinker, if for no other reason then there are security issues at stake. I would EXPECT them to put out a not-totally-accurate story. So if some inaccuracies and omissions crop up I'm not going to think much of it.
I'm not in favor of us hitting foreign figures we don't like at every turn, but Osama messed with the big cat in the forest in a civilian attack. Ultimately, it's a jungle out there, and the law of the jungle got him. He made a choice to play in that arena with predictable results.
H2O Man
(73,581 posts)I had been provided with an early copy of this, and was waiting to post it on DU. Glad to see that you have it here, and that DUers are reading it.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)itcfish
(1,828 posts)Elections??? What does it matter? He was responsible for 9/11 and we wanted him "Dead or Alive" since 9/11/01, so they got him. I don't think Obama put on a show for the kiddies.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . and one can always ask, "Why now," regardless of when something like this comes out.
erpowers
(9,350 posts)I am not buying this story. None of it makes any sense. Hersh contradicts himself too many times in this article. It seems that he says one thing in one paragraph and then one, or two paragraphs later he completely contradicts what he said in the previous paragraph. The article claims Pakistan captured Osama Bin Laden in 2006 and was holding him for leverage against Taliban and Al Qaida members in Pakistan. At another point in the article he claims that the American military blackmailed Pakistani officials by saying they (the Americans) would let the world know that the Pakistanis knew that Bin Laden was in Pakistan. Hersh claimed the Americans did this because they knew Al Qaida and Taliban member would be angered by finding out that Pakistani officials knew Bin Laden was in Pakistan. If the Pakistanis were already using Bin Laden as leverage how could the American military threaten to reveal the Pakistanis knew Bin Laden was in Pakistan? At one point in the article Hersh claimed that the American military did not want to tell the Pakistani officials they were aware that Bin Laden may be in Pakistan because they were afraid the Pakistanis would move Bin Laden. At another point in the article Hersh claimed that American military officials knew that the only way they could confirm that Bin Laden was at the compound was to ask Pakistani officials if Bin Laden was actually at the compound.
Why would Pakistan have not turned Bin Laden over to President Bush and the American military in 2006? I doubt anyone can make the argument that Bush did not want Bin Laden because he wanted to keep Americans scared. It was 2006, he was not going to be up for election again, so, he did not really need to scare the American people into voting for him. I think Bush knew what claiming to have captured Bin Laden would have done for his legacy. I think he knew that his legacy was going to be shaky without capturing Bin Laden. So, I do not think he would have passed on a chance to get Bin Laden.
If this Pakistani military/intelligence officer wanted $25 million why did he wait until 2011 to try to turn him over to the American military? I do not think he waited so late in order to retire from the intelligence service. I am pretty certain the portion of the $25 million he would get was going to be larger than his pension from the intelligence service. In addition, that information gave him a free ticket to America. Why wait years before cashing in and claiming his free ticket to America? Even if he, for some reason, opposed the Bush Administration why did he not come to the Obama Administration in 2009 or 2010.
Why would President Obama, or anyone from the Obama Administration, or the American military have to give a reason for killing Bin Laden? If President Obama had announced to the American people that he had decided to send the American military to Pakistan to kill Bin Laden very few, if any, American would have openly criticized him, if they criticized him at all. If for some reason President Obama had ordered the Seals to bring Bin Laden in alive the only thing that would have happened is that there would have been a debate about keeping him at Guantanamo Bay, or bringing him to America to be tried in a civilian court. The only other debate would have been whether or not to give him the death penalty. So, we have to believe that President Obama made up this elaborate lie in order prevent debates over Guantanamo Bay and the death penalty. That does not make sense.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)to the actions of "suspected militants" in countries with which we are not at war is to kill them with a Hellfire missile.
We've proven that even the most high-profile, highly-guarded target (Bin Laden) can be captured if we want to.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)and does not comply with the approved version released by the Ministry of Truthiness.
Seymour Hersh - BAD, BAD MAN
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I belittle and trivialize those which do not share my opinion too. Though doing so illustrates a profound lack of character on my part, it certainly lets us maintain the pretense we're more clever than we really are.
Skepticism for its own sake is little more than faith in trendy clothes.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)you're welcome.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Alex, meet Sy.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)During today's show rant he said several times that Sy Hersh contacted them through email.
I wouldn't be surprised if the source of Sy's story are various right wing conspiracy blogs and forums.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)So I won't discount this
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,136 posts)Scary that some on this board are taking this story seriously.
We truly have entered the twilight zone.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,136 posts)Are psychic? First of all don't pretend to think you know what I've considered based on a few comments on a blog.
I've read a couple articles on Seymour Hersh. Lately he seems to have gone the Ralph Nader route. Once upon a time he was a pretty credible guy. Lately one finds ones self saying WTF when he speaks.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . but you sure are quick to criticize those who are willing to consider that it might be.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Hersh needs more, and more public, evidence for his claims.
On the other hand, based on recent events, it is far more likely the government lied it's ass off as usual for PR effect.
I do find the evident bloodlust of our leaders disturbing, hate makes you stupid, but it is not at all new.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Critical thinking disappears with belief.
It is all about whose team is on top.
That's why the support for TPP, why the hatred for Greenwald.
It's all about the team. Obama could kill Bambi on the White House lawn and it would be okay with some. Just as Bush could do the same and it would be okay with some on that side. I'm just astonished so few can see what they are actually doing.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)I can't help but think it would get quite a different reception regarding if this occurred under a Republican administration.
Zero Dark Thirty is still a shitty propaganda piece.