Guard tells Senator Boxer that she can't take notes on TPP

[n2doc]

We thought it was crazy when Obama's trade threatened Congress with prison if they disclosed anything about the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership.

But it just gets dirtier. Sen Barbara Boxer [D-CA] tried to get a look at the text. First she limited her helpers to staffers with security clearance, because the TPP is Classified ("God knows why... It has nothing to do with defense. It has nothing to do with going after ISIS.&quot .

But when she got there, the guard told her she wasn't allowed to take notes. Then he relented and told her she could take notes, but that he would confiscate them and read and file them when she was done.

When the New Zealand trade minister explained that TPP was being kept secret to prevent public debate, he was wrong. It's also being kept secret to prevent Congressional debate.

more
http://boingboing.net/2015/05/12/guard-tells-top-senator-that-s.html

[Vinca]

1. That's astonishing. It must be REALLY bad for the average American.

[flor-de-jasmim]

77. Hmm, I need an additional signature line:

If a bill is too "dangerous" to read, it's too dangerous to pass!

[think]

2. America should be better than this. Good grief...

[RKP5637]

3. Yep, the transparency we were promised. n/t

[Sherman A1]

5. Well,

there is that question that might need to be answered there......

[Thav]

80. It is!

They're being transparent about how much they don't want anyone to see it.

I'm sure they'll push congress to ratify the treaty, but forbid them to read it

[deutsey]

4. God Bless America

[cali]

6. Anyone who says that the TPP secrecy is bullshit, is either ignorant or

purposely prevaricating.

It is. No other proposed trade agreement has been classified for national security reasons. Other trade agreements have been far less secretive- as the NYT noted:

<snip>
The office of the United States Trade Representative has said that “negotiators need to communicate with each other with a high degree of candor, creativity and mutual trust. To create the conditions necessary to successfully reach agreements in complex trade and investment negotiations, governments routinely keep their proposals and communications with each other confidential.”

But previous trade agreements were shared more openly and despite the secrecy efforts, portions of the document have been leaking out, through WikiLeaks and other organizations.
<snip>


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/business/unpacking-the-trans-pacific-partnership-trade-deal.html?_r=0

[Divernan]

7. Ignorant, prevaricating, trolling - maybe all three.

[hedda_foil]

25. Thanks for the link, Cali.. Check out this part on services.

Services A big aim of the Pacific pact is enhancing opportunities for service industries, which account for most of the private jobs in the American economy. The United States has a competitive advantage in a range of services, including finance, engineering, software, education, legal and information technology. Although services are not subject to tariffs, nationality requirements and restrictions on investing are used by many developing countries to protect local businesses.

Opportunities,but not for people here, but for service industries.

[deancr]

44. Industries

are people too?

[ChiciB1]

83. Time For A Group -- PUKE, Literally!

I know I'm feeling light headed and queasy!
BUT also my other feeling...

[erronis]

84. If the TPP passes, is there any conceivable way it can be challenged/rolled-back?

You seem to have a lot of background on this subject, which to many of us (or me) becomes eye-glazing.

I think I understand that some of the provisions have a 6+ year life that cannot be altered by any nation state (including the god-almighty USofA.)

Is this correct? If the USofA signs one of these POS "trade/partnership" treaties does that mean than a subsequent executive/congress/SC be unable to break the treaty?

Crap, Germany and many other nations have told prior "partners" to take the treaty and stuff it when they felt it was time to go to war.

Perhaps that's what is being maneuvered here - an intolerable arrangement that only war will resolve. Unfortunately, the war will not be between the rich industrial states and their corporate funders, it will involve the people that can't/won't live in servitude - around the world.

[AzDar]

8. K & R &

[dixiegrrrrl]

9. She should be yelling from the rooftops about this.

TPTB behind this just told her..and us...that our elected reps. are irrelevant.

They pulled the same shit about bank bail out
They pulled the same shit about various spying on citizens bills

[Enthusiast]

11. +1

[certainot]

10. this is nuts. why can't we get a someone with a photographic

memory to swish through it.

there are people like that and they haven't all been sucked up into MIC.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. Wouldn't THAT be exactly the staffer to have working for you?

That would be an incredibly useful talent in such cases.

[yeoman6987]

38. Probably end up in jail for treason

Not kidding

[Punx]

12. Yes

Can the supporters just admit it is being kept secret?

This parallels exactly what I've heard directly from Representative Defazio here in Oregon. Yes technically he can see it so it isn't secret but...

In my line of work I have to manage contracts for my organization. Even the most complex we enter into here are simple compared to these trade agreements. I would never agree to a contract I could only scan in advance. How can a single individual senator or representative get even a basic idea of what's in an allegedly 1000+ page document a little bit at a time. If I were in congress I would want to have the entire thing in my office. I would want to have my legal staff review it, and discuss it with other members of congress. Only then could I decide whether it is good for the people I represent.

My fear is that somewhere buried in the text of the TPP, say Chapter 15 Section 636.5 Paragraph 18, line 20 there is some nasty bit of language that we the people will come to regret. Not to mention what has been already leaked, specifically the Investor-State dispute language is clearly unfriendly to democracy.

Oh and another lie that comes out of supporters is that the US hasn't lost a Investor-State dispute. Dolphin Safe Tuna anyone?

[lark]

46. Welcome to DU!

Good post

[greymattermom]

13. One of them should let her/himself be arrested

Now that would be interesting. How long would a senator be retained for taking notes on a document they are supposed to vote on?

[Plucketeer]

16. OR....

how's about someone filing a lawsuit that challenges the contention that this agreement is a matter of "national security"?

[hedda_foil]

35. Yes! A senatorial arrest or two for taking notes could make clear what's going on.

And the houses of congress should subpoena the full text of the agreement before they do anything more...and the TPA needs to die either judicially or legislatively if not both.

[Plucketeer]

14. This administration exhibits the transparency

of the shield the dentist hangs on me each time he takes an x-ray.

[Angry Dragon]

47. +1000

[yardwork]

15. That is disgraceful.

[frylock]

17. Guessing that the DU pro-TPP contingent sleeps in late..

kicking for exposure.

[randys1]

28. I dont know who they are, but I do know that this president has been obstructed unlike any

ten combined in history.

Is TPP a bad thing, probably real bad.

Unless we drastically raise taxes on the rich and corps, use that to loan to new start ups who will mfg here in usa while we put huge tariffs on imports; we are fucked and TPP may be the only way to get jobs, even though they would be bad and low paying.

I say no to TPP but what confuses me is why Obama is so for it.

Either he knows something we dont, or this man who has worked for our benefit for all these years, is intentionally trying to harm us for the benefit of the wealthy.

Hey, I love George Carlin and I dont trust a single one of them, but of the ones out there he is one of the better ones.

I hope TPP is doomed, but I also can assure you so is the american worker.

[blackspade]

18. This is intolerable.

[JEB]

19. K&R for exposure and bookmark.

[raouldukelives]

20. Kick. Best democracy investors can buy. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government;

Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.

 Thomas Jefferson

[whathehell]

69. +100

[jalan48]

22. I can't believe this isn't front page news.

Last edited Wed May 13, 2015, 02:18 PM - Edit history (1)

It's like we are having a corporate coup d'état. They are telling us, "Do what we say, or else. Take notes out of this room Senator and we will tear them up". Really?

[KamaAina]

85. Hell, the TPP isn't even back-page news.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026657577

We may well be having a corporate coup d'état.

[Android3.14]

23. "Obama loves me, this I know..."

[A Simple Game]

24. This must be a pack of lies! Right here on DU I have been told by several members that

anyone and everyone that wants to read it can. To be honest none have said I could take notes.

I have also been informed that every major labor leader and environmentalist is on the negotiating commitee and that if I cared I would look it up.

I have been told that even though we are the largest and most desired market in the world that we need this agreement to stay up with even the smallest countries we trade with.

Not to mention being told China China China... say isn't China that country that started kicking our butts when President Clinton reversed a campaign pledge and gave China most favored nation trade status in a 1994 trade agreement that went against the wishes of Democratic leaders in congress? Hey... a Democratic President going against the Democratic leaders of congress and we then get screwed, what does that remind me of?

[historylovr]

29. +1

[RufusTFirefly]

27. Bad Senator! Bad! Bad!

She should know better!



I'm tempted to bring up the specter of creeping authoritarianism, but that might get me in trouble with the Man.

[moondust]

30. Somebody knew

that Congresspersons would never be able to digest it all given their limited time and so few eyeballs looking at it. That stinks.

[n2doc]

33. There have to be thousands of pages

And all dense, misleading legal jargon (based on the excerpts I have seen). There is no way anyone is going to be able to go through this and catch all of the nuances or hidden traps written into it.

[moondust]

36. Exactly.

It has probably been written or at least cleared by corporate lawyers who specialize in finding tax loopholes and other subtle profitability tricks.

[tblue37]

40. That's obviously a feature, not a bug. nt

[cali]

74. + a ton. that's the nub of it.

language is used to obscure and deceive. You need experts in discrete fields to tease the thing out.

fuckwads pushing this know that.

[Orsino]

31. I think we need to know who is fucking cleared for this.

I suspect that there are plenty of industry heads and relatively minor corporate flunkies who keep extensive records of their contributions.

I suppose we just need our remaining reps to keep pointing out the secrecy and voicing their general opinion of bad things contained therein.

[sarge43]

32. My, what a smart to get congresscritters to support a bill

[KoKo]

34. Recommend!

[GummyBearz]

37. Thats standard for any classified area

I have a note book that contained homework assignments from when I was doing my MS and working for the MIC that I accidentally took into a classified room, and it will remain there for another 18 years

[pampango]

39. Congress did not have access to FDR's trade negotiations nor Obama's Iranian negotiations.

If liberals want international issues solved diplomatically, we are going to have to accept an amount of secrecy as diplomats go about that. The alternative of no diplomacy - just let countries do whatever they want to whomever they want is not very appealing. I would love to see Woodrow Wilson's idea of "open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view" implemented but I don't see that on the horizon.

Do legislators in Canada, Australia, Mexico, Japan and the other TPP countries have unrestricted access to the negotiations? If so, ours should too. If not, perhaps there was an agreement between the countries at the beginning to that effect (as was the case with FDR in trade talks and Obama in Iranian talks). It would be hard to go back on our word (if it was given) and say "We know what we all agreed on confidentiality at the beginning of the negotiations, but we have changed our minds. Sorry about that. But we do hope to solve future issues with you diplomatically."

[americannightmare]

42. Well, then I guess it's okay...

NOT! No wonder we don't hear a peep from rethugs about the secrecy of Obama's trade negotiations, but a whole messy bloody noise is made when Obama negotiates with the Iranians in secret. Virtually everything Obama has wanted to accomplish while in office has been opposed by rethugs - except THIS! It was wrong then, it's wrong now!

[pampango]

43. If confidential international negotiations are 'wrong', we'll have to come up with another method

of dealing with international issues. Would it be better to refuse to negotiate anything with any country until they agree that all negotiations are open to the public? The ghost of Woodrow Wilson would agree with that idea. If the rest of the world does not, where does that leave us?

[Divernan]

41. The Obama I voted for promised transparency and rule of law as touchstones

of his administration.

Unlike other offices within the White House, which were always exempt from the Freedom of Information Act, the Office of Administration responded to FOIA requests for 30 years. Until the Obama administration, watchdog groups on the left and the right used records from the office to shed light on how the White House works.

"This is an office that operated under the FOIA for 30 years, and when it became politically inconvenient, they decided they weren't subject to the Freedom of Information Act any more," said Tom Fitton of the conservative Judicial Watch

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/16/white-house-foia-regulations-deleted/24844253/
And it's not only FOIA requests directed to the White House which have been limited by Obama.
It's any requests on topics which included any communication with the White House. Well, that pretty much covers the water-front, doesn't it?

According to a 2009 memo from the White House Counsel to all agency heads and general counsels, the White House reminded all agencies to send FOIA requests containing White House “equities” to it for review.
The equities mandate “applies to all documents and records, whether in oral, paper, or electronic form, that relate to communications to and from the White House, including preparations for such communications.”
Transparency groups say the review process has significantly delayed some requests and that agencies do not have proper guidance on what counts as a “White House equity.”
Government watchdog group Cause of Action, one of the signers of the letter, first obtained the formerly secret 2009 memo. The group sued a dozen government agencies in August for more information on their White House equities policy.

And as Rep. Dennis Kucinich stated about Obama and the Rule of Law and drone strikes:

Think of the use of drone air strikes as summary executions, extra-judicial killings justified by faceless bureaucrats using who-knows-what "intelligence," with no oversight whatsoever and you get the idea that we have slipped into spooky new world where joystick gods manipulating robots deal death from the skies and then go home and hug their children. Everything America was once said to stand for: the rule of law, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is in danger of becoming collateral damage as our fearful leaders continue to kill suspects and innocent alike, mindlessly unaware that the hellfire we are sowing will surely be reaped by Americans in the future. The proliferation of drone technology and its inevitable extension to civilian law enforcement is a leap into the arms of Big Brother.

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism recently estimated that at least 2,292 people have been killed by U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan since 2004. The Bureau determined that of that number, over 350 are civilians. A July 2009 Brookings Institution report stated ten civilians die for every one suspected militant from U.S. drone strikes. Yet another study by the New American Foundation concluded that out of 114 drone attacks in Pakistan, at least 32% of those killed by the strikes were civilians.

President Obama has greatly expanded the use of drones over the past several years, authorizing more drone strikes during his first fifteen months in office than President Bush did during the entirety of his eight years in office. In addition to the use of drones in Pakistan, the Administration has authorized strikes in Yemen and Somalia. The increasing reliance on drones and the lack of recourse for the families of innocent civilians that are killed by such strikes demonstrate the impunity with which the U.S. uses this technology.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-dennis-kucinich/drones-direct-hit-upon-ru_b_929203.html

[LiberalLovinLug]

86. But but but ..I just read on the White House website that Obama runs the most transparent in history

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/TransparencyandOpenGovernment/

Memorandum for the Heads of Executive Departments and Agencies

SUBJECT: Transparency and Open Government

My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government. We will work together to ensure the public trust and establish a system of transparency, public participation, and collaboration. Openness will strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness in Government.

Government should be transparent. Transparency promotes accountability and provides information for citizens about what their Government is doing. Information maintained by the Federal Government is a national asset. My Administration will take appropriate action, consistent with law and policy, to disclose information rapidly in forms that the public can readily find and use. Executive departments and agencies should harness new technologies to put information about their operations and decisions online and readily available to the public. Executive departments and agencies should also solicit public feedback to identify information of greatest use to the public.

Government should be participatory. Public engagement enhances the Government's effectiveness and improves the quality of its decisions. Knowledge is widely dispersed in society, and public officials benefit from having access to that dispersed knowledge. Executive departments and agencies should offer Americans increased opportunities to participate in policymaking and to provide their Government with the benefits of their collective expertise and information. Executive departments and agencies should also solicit public input on how we can increase and improve opportunities for public participation in Government.

Government should be collaborative. Collaboration actively engages Americans in the work of their Government. Executive departments and agencies should use innovative tools, methods, and systems to cooperate among themselves, across all levels of Government, and with nonprofit organizations, businesses, and individuals in the private sector. Executive departments and agencies should solicit public feedback to assess and improve their level of collaboration and to identify new opportunities for cooperation.

I direct the Chief Technology Officer, in coordination with the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and the Administrator of General Services, to coordinate the development by appropriate executive departments and agencies, within 120 days, of recommendations for an Open Government Directive, to be issued by the Director of OMB, that instructs executive departments and agencies to take specific actions implementing the principles set forth in this memorandum. The independent agencies should comply with the Open Government Directive.

This memorandum is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by a party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

This memorandum shall be published in the Federal Register.

BARACK OBAMA

[Divernan]

87. Signed Jan. 21, 2009 - the times, they've been a-changin'

Bill Clinton: "It depends on what your definition of "is" is. For Obama, it all depends on what your definition of "transparency" is.

Words and deeds, baby, words and deeds. I always vote based on the latter, not the former.
Or as the Marlon Brando character in the old film, One Eyed Jacks said, "Talk is cheap, Jack. Make your play."


http://govfresh.com/2009/12/white-house-transparency-and-open-government-memorandum/

[lark]

45. Fealty to the power structure is what is wanted.

Debate, suggestions, even understanding - non-starters.

[Angry Dragon]

48. According to my Senator the TPP has not even been finished yet

[stuffmatters]

49. I watched Senator Boxer's whole speeech yesterday. It was terrific.

[turbinetree]

50. Just call me stupid

but are we not suppose to be a transparent system of government -----------or am I just stupid---naïve------stupid----------naïve ----------I mean really--------a guard.

[arcane1]

51. Do we know who the people are who are negotiating, and ARE allowed to look at it?

[Kelvin Mace]

52. Remember, this is the issue Obama has chosen

to nail his colors to the mast for.

This is what he wants as his legacy and he is prepared to uses lies and deceit to accomplish.

[hifiguy]

55. It really is absurdly simple.

Elizabeth Warren and the other anti-TPPers are fucking up Obama's post-presidency retirement plan, which is to cash in for his services rendered to the billionaire class and the plutocracy, just like the Clintons did. No TPP, no donut.

You know sure as shit that he doesn't want to end up like Jimmy Carter, building houses for Habitat for Humanity, when there is a Clinton-style zillion-dollar gravy train to be ridden for the rest of your life. Fuck the little people, you gotta get yours when the chance comes around, and it only comes around once.

[Punx]

56. Jimmy Carter

The most decent man to be president in my lifetime. And arguably the most Christian, if by Christian, one means to follow Christ’s teachings. Kennedy was shot shortly after I was born so I’m not including him.

[Divernan]

88. Succinctly and accurately stated. 1,000+

[Marr]

53. No privacy for citizens, absolute secrecy for the 1%.

If they need to be assured complete secrecy in order to be 'creative', then they're admitting that their proposals and/or goals would be offensive to the average person.

And this is the legislation for which Obama demands fast track authority?

This thing stinks.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity. Lord Acton

Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity. Lord Acton

[Tsiyu]

57. We can't see it, congress members can't see it

But guess who CAN see it in its entirety?

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/12/cant-read-tpp-heres-huge-corporations-can/

CORPORATIONS! The only fucking people who matter any more, who have rights, and who are allowed to earn money.

ALL HAIL OUR CORPORATE OVERLORDS!!!!

[whereisjustice]

63. +1

[jtuck004]

58. "What ya in for, kid?" "Taking illegal notes". And they all moved away from her on the bench...n/t

[Skittles]

59. Prosense, er, I mean Hoyt, must be off their game

I'm sure 20 paragraphs explaining while this is all super cool will be made available soon.

[n2doc]

61. Their side won. Only the gloating and boasting remains n/t

[Skittles]

68. they "won" the same way gun humpers "won"

they can all fuck themselves

[n2doc]

75. Yes

They 'won'. The rest of us lost.

[whereisjustice]

65. spewing blue ink like a ruptured squid...

[YOHABLO]

60. This is Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit. People need to wake up. What is so damn secret that they don't

want us to know? If we allow this to go through, we might as well flush American workers, along with the Constitution down the toilet.

[Ed Suspicious]

62. play the two level game, Mr. President. Stop acting like some shady prick.

[libdem4life]

64. Boxer was my Senator for many years, and my quess is she didn't quite believe or grasp what

Warren had already said, and went to see for herself. And for a Senator to be shut down by a Guard...double the outrage.

[joshcryer]

66. They need to record this. It'd go viral so quick.

[nikto]

67. A good analogy for what is happening now ...

[Art_from_Ark]

70. TPP is becoming our "cask of Amontillado"

"Just trust me, it will be the greatest kool-aid, er wine, you've ever tasted!"

[yuiyoshida]

71. LET ME MAKE SURE I spell this right...

THIS IS Ridiculous!!

[Art_from_Ark]

72. Or in Japanese

Kore wa baka sugiru!

[yuiyoshida]

81. Honto desu Ark san

Honto desu!


arigatou!

[Major Hogwash]

73. Good thing, too, because Boxer takes good notes.

[Evar]

76. Common Sense Reasons for Keeping Detail Secret

Let's apply some common sense to the rules for reading the TPP. This complex agreement is being developed. The United States has provisions that it wants written into the pact. Other countries do as well. Each nation wants its own provisions kept private while the agreements are being constructed. It's not just the United States that is requiring confidentiality. That's the truth, folks, and all this hysteria ginned up by Elizabeth Warren is irresponsible. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

[djean111]

78. Here is what is wrong - if it is not finished, then why the rush to have Fast Track?

So it cannot be changed, that's why. I bet it won't take long for it to be "finished" - right after Fast Track is approved.
I wonder why other countries are demonstrating against the TPP and TTIP, too - is it that Warren is astoundingly influential? Or is it that something reeks and this is not confined to the United States.

Again, if you think Warren has ginned up all the anger, you are wrong. Many others have spoken out against the TPP. Picking Warren for a whipping boy is not going to work well.

[Smarmie Doofus]

79. "I'm afraid I can't allow that, Dave."

I mean "Barbara."

>>>Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave Bowman: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Dave Bowman: Alright, HAL. I'll go in through the emergency airlock.
HAL: Without your space helmet, Dave? You're going to find that rather difficult.
Dave Bowman: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.>>>>

[DirkGently]

82. Silly Senator ...

TPP trix are for child laborers.

Gah.