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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAbout that violinist on the derailed train many were so quick to pillory. . .
I posted the article linked in the original thread on this topic to Facebook. An ex of mine (whom I am still good friends with), who is also a classical violinist (and a staunch and politically active Democrat in Putnam County, NY), and who happens to know Jennifer Kim, responded as follows:
And another violinist, a friend of my ex's, also chimed in:
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CaliforniaPeggy
(149,525 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)However, spouting off publicly that way was unwise and tactless. She could have communicated her concern for her violin in a private email. She chose instead a forum that is public and doesn't allow for nuance, thus leaving it to the public to infer her intent.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)She coulda, shoulda, woulda... but she didn't.
And that gives a few hundred anonymous useless assholes the right to slam her for an outburst over an instrument that means as much to her as life itself?
What happened to just letting it pass?
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Her outburst would have been to her friends/relations on the phone, who would have advisd her to calibrate her priorities and tone in the context of a disaster where people died. Today, everyone has a public forum with access to about a billion people who are not terribly forgiving.
To me, this reminds me of folk who post pictures of themselves on Facebook doing stupid things and then playing the victim when it comes back to haunt them by costing them a job. Again, in the context of this accident where there are victims who have actually been maimed or killed, it's a little hard see her as a "victim" when she is unharmed and healthy.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)to inform her family she was still alive and perhaps complained to the conductor because there was nobody else.
Have you ever heard of state of shock? I don't mean the medical term either, but the social term?
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)and it would have not been public.
She might have mailed a letter.
It would not have been public.
She might have gone to the local Amtrak office in a horse and buggy, Model T, or Nissan Leaf and asked.
It would not have been public.
She could have sent an email.
It would not have been public.
Of course, in the past and present, she could have chosen to go to the wreck site with a bullhorn. Would that have been well received? Would that have pissed people off? Yeah, I am thinking the reaction would have been more personal and in her face.
In every instant in the past and present, her choice could have been a private communication. Instead, she chose a public forum for her communication.
She chose, in this day and age, the nearest equivalent, a public communication lacking tact, sensitivity and compassion, made to a FAR larger audience than she could have managed with a bullhorn.
And she pissed people off.
Now folks want to paint her as a victim, while people are actually dead, dying, or maimed for life. Nobody on that train did anything to deserve what happened to them. While she doesn't deserve anything beyond admonishment (in varying degrees of politeness or lack thereof), she DID do something to get herself into this mess. If Donald Trump did something this self-absorbed, no one here would be feeling sorry for him, though I (and many others) would still draw the line at threats of violence. NO ONE deserves ANY threat of violence.
But public censure? I have no problem with that.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)says far more about you than you wanted to reveal. It is not necessarily nice either.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)should not make a public ass of themselves. Again, I personally don't have time to chastise such people, but if other wish to, and abstain from violent threats, then it is their right to do so. I don't seem to recall a lot of sympathy for the car salesmen who got reamed for stiffing and humiliating a pizza delivery guy.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And that is telling about you
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)so I certainly haven't said anything to the lady online about her actions. Nor would I, had I such an account. Are you saying that discussing this issue in a public forum and debating its propriety is the same as censuring her personally?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Are you not?
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)I have criticized her actions as:
"unwise and tactless"
"a public communication lacking tact, sensitivity and compassion,"
"she DID do something to get herself into this mess
"People who do not want public censure should not make a public ass of themselves."
I also compared her actions to people who post stupid things on Facebook and then are surprised when it isn't well received.
Which statement counts as scathing censure?
PCIntern
(25,489 posts)you asked...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)is part of the online attitudes, I am better than you, and you should not have done that. It is what is making this society as cold hearted as it is, and lacking of empathy.
By the way, here is news to you, but NOT everybody reacts in perfect ways during times of stress, in fact I am going to bet that most people will NOT meet your standards of perfection.
Let's review here, and yes, as a former EMT i have quite a bit of experience to know that her actions are NOT, contrary to your opinion, that uncommon. IN fact, they are quite common. People are concerned about the strangest things... and at times break into laughter in the middle of these things. Which is fully not appropriate according to experts on line, like this social media site. They also ask about the most stupid of shit. I have had people ask for a blanket, not the one in an ambulance, but a family heirloom. Chickens... yup, chickens. Toys, a photo album... in one case a toy, a precious toy for a young boy. The boy did not calm down until we found the dollar toy... in fact.
She is at an accident scene, in the dark, and 15 minutes after the accident, which she has no way to know how serious it was, she posts about the accident and ASKS about a piece of property that to her is quite precious, and her livelihood.
That is not uncommon sir. In fact, that is quite common during disasters.
You know what Media these days do? That is my profession these days. We monitor social media channels after disasters. Twitter is kind of a good source as well. People at an accident scene, or a disaster, start to post a LLLLOOOOTTTT of stuff. Quite a bit of it is not precisely appropriate in NORMAL circumstances, which a train wreck is not.
Will one tweet tell us much? Nope, Will a series of them do? Yes. In fact, after a PEMEX oil rig went boom recently, the feed was a way for many of us WELL BEYOND the zone to be able to competently know how many people were hurt. (It helps they also ran their own official tweets)... which shows a level of media awareness that AMTRAK did not show the other day.
And here is another thing. Try empathy. I can bet that you will react in somewhat questionable ways if you are in a similar situation. You know why? MOST PEOPLE DO.
I do not wish you to be in an accident, but if you ever are in one... I wish on you the same level of moral judgement that you are using right now. I really do. I hope you are told all that you are doing right now. And right now you will swear up and down that you would never do that. Right now you are correct. You are in the middle of very normal circumstances, so I do not expect you to do this right now. But after something like a major disaster or accident, I do not expect it.
But that is my wish for you... it is not kharmic, don't believe in that. But some people only learn when they walk in those shoes.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but millennialist tend to be connected and use those two instead of the phone to keep in touch with family. Conversations are very public. So it *is* their life.
This penchant for censure if an accident victim that lost the means of livelihood 15 minutes into the accident are far more telling of those censuring than her actually.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)You know. The one where the guy is parallel parked in his Porsche and opens the door in traffic just when a bus is coming which then shears off his car door. A cop seeing the whole thing rushes up to him. The yuppie gets out screaming, "My Porsche!! My Porsche!!" The cop says, "Sir, forget your car! That bus just tore off your arm!!!" The yuppie looks and sees his arm is now gone and screams, "My Rolex!! My Rolex!!"
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Who knew?
phil89
(1,043 posts)actual lives were lost. Her instrument wasn't a life. She should be ashamed.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That violin is her livelihood and 15 minutes into the accident...not everybody will meet your standards of perfection.
Skittles
(153,113 posts)but get upset when people critique
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)If a person stood on a street corner and said obnoxious things (I'm looking at you Westboro Baptist), why would anyone question people's negative reactions to the speaker (threats of violence are not acceptable in any context).
So why is Twitter/Facebook/Tumblr any different?
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)You'd think you were in the train wreck, not her.
AnnieBW
(10,413 posts)And she was probably concerned about it being damaged. It may be an inanimate object, but it's her livelihood.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)and as I point out, there were a number of ways to express that concern PRIVATELY and she chose a public forum.
If Ted Nugent had done this because his extremely expensive, extremely rare guitar was lost, I don't think anyone here would be rushing to his defense.
JI7
(89,240 posts)just minutes afterwards so she would not have known at the time just how bad it was .
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)and near death are the worst! I mean, that should just be obvious, huh? What is wrong with people who don't know exactly what it's like to face death and be totally rattled. They should be totally shamed into learning they're wrong. Because, duh! Who doesn't know that? Otherwise, shaming people on the internet is wrong! Ugh, so totally disrespecting the dead. You're right!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)I'm sure you've seen them. It's related to the "someone think of the children" coming from someone with no kids. The claim that some third party could possibly be offended and the asshole thus presents themselves as the hero protecting that hypothetical person's delicate feelings.
kcr
(15,315 posts)Shame them! But only them. Because shaming on the internet is wrong.
Edited to add I hope it's clear I'm not being serious. This whole thread is ridiculous to me 
Response to markpkessinger (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I was an EMT in another country, thankfully. And one of our priorities, after the obvious triage of people, was to reunite people with possessions. One of the funniest, in a way, it was a bus wreck so there were few funny things about it, were a bunch of chickens. They got lose during the accident. They were given to the bride during a wedding in a rural area. They were as valuable to the new couple as a violin is to a professional musician. They asked about the chickens to one of my crews on the way to the ER, and that was conveyed to the rescue group over the radio.
We chased the damn chickens in hard ground to chase them, beating both the sun and the coyotes. One of the chickens incidentally did not make it. So I guess the coyotes had dinner that night.
To us reuniting the chickens with the couple was as important as setting bones and starting IVs and using backboards. In fact, I had more volunteers than there were chickens to be chased. But that is ok. You would never believe how fast those critters can run.
I sometimes ache for the level of cruelty many people have in this country. I wonder if people are so self absorbed in their own tragedy that they do not understand that getting people together with things that are important for life should be part of the disaster plan. She needs that instrument, as much as that newly wed couple needed those chickens.
It might not be obvious, to some. But I would have the same issue with losing my camera gear.
And as I also posted in that other thread... 15 minutes in, she has no idea about casualties, she was in the proverbial state of shock, not the medical one. I get it. I understand it. I hope she recovers her instrument.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . lovely comment!
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)It's much needed.
Empathy seems to be in short supply these days, or maybe it's just me. Part of the problem with being young and relatively new to all of this is there's no good reference points.
Anyways, all the rest of y'all in this thread need to drop some acid and think about how you might feel if your life was at risk--your life, in this case, being a violin. Might help your ability to think from her perspective.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)she was run out of town right?
Kind of hard to apologize from a canned account.
For the record, her treatment was not unusual. I am willing to bet that if she were a man, nothing like this would have ever happened. And yes, there are plenty of studies on this. Worst, she is not even white.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2014/11/10/now-will-twitter-take-online-harassment-of-women-seriously/
Logical
(22,457 posts)would have helped her a lot.
A man would of gotten the same reaction in this case.
But I agree, women overall are treated terrible by men. Men (myself) are the worst sex no doubt about it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)nothing would have happened, nothing like this
Logical
(22,457 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/30/5-facts-about-online-harassment/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/01/the-darkest-side-of-online-harassment-menacing-behavior/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/01/07/online-harassment-of-women-is-a-problem-heres-what-to-do-about-it/
Have an excellent day
Logical
(22,457 posts)
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)Let's just say that the remarks that came out of my mouth to the person who hit me would have easily gotten me banned if I said them on DU.
You get a one day asshole pass when you are an accident victim, OK.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts)
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)where I picked up some very rare old music albums worth between $20,000 - $25,000. I had a right front tire blowout traveling at 80mph on an interstate freeway and rolled the SUV, according to witnesses, five to six times. I woke up after the ambulance crew pulled me out of my upside down SUV. As they were putting me on a stretcher, I looked up and noticed all the albums strewn all over the freeway and the center dirt median. I could see that some of the albums were intact.
My SUV was totaled, I lost 80% the albums and I was badly injured. I only recovered what was in my wreaked SUV after I was released from the hospital.
I knew that the county had cleaned up the wreak site and someone was in possession of some still intact albums. Did I demand the county to give them back to me? No I didn't. All that mattered was that I had survived a life-altering auto wreak.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . her words were, "Can I please get my violin back." And unless those albums you speak of were needed for your livelihood, they aren't reawllya valid comparison.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)A musician knows their instrument intimately. It can be their love in every sense of the word. It is a beautiful and precious relationship.
To see that relationship at risk is terrifying. To blame someone for saying something while in shock after the accident is really quite presumptive.
Yes, life is more important than a physical object. But to many, their lives are extremely closely tied with physical objects, for better or worse. It's important to realize that importance when trying to understand her reaction.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)Last edited Thu May 14, 2015, 04:29 AM - Edit history (1)
That's what I did for a living. I had a nose for locating very rare albums and buying them at a fraction of the price that I sold them for. I came across some extremely rare Beatles acetates that people from across the world were calling about buying them. I sold a Beatles Sgt Pepper acetate for $15,000.
I had to lay low for a couple of years after the accident. After I tried to get back in the game, I couldn't concentrate on the issue at hand because of my head wound from the accident. Since my name was out there before the wreak, I was getting calls from people telling me where I could go to locate rare albums plus my ability to sniff out places that had them. Like small towns that had mom and pop record stores that had to close down due to the advent of CDs.
I dearly miss those days.
ETA: I'm flat broke now because the medical bills ate my savings.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)squat, because they're mostly things like Emo Phillips or Kip Adotta or Steven Wright and have been played. Not exactly Beatles class, heh.
Beaverhausen
(24,470 posts)Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)I had the SUV towed to where I lived and there were about 20% of the albums still in there, some broken and some in decent shape, I kept the intact albums and tossed the rest.
I didn't feel like doing anything so I let it go as far as asking for the albums back. I was just happy to be alive.
mindem
(1,580 posts)What prevents some county worker from keeping her very expensive violin as a little keepsake - yes that kind of thing happens all of the time. There would be musicians on the albums you had disappear who would be just as concerned about their instruments as she is entitled to be. Some of my instruments cost thousands of dollars and I would be frantic if they disappeared, they are a major part of my life. She is a victim in this tragedy too and people are spending more time attacking her than the engineer. Sometimes the pontificating in this place is beyond belief.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)And I think you missed my point. I was absolutely not chastising her in any way. I was just making the point that her life should be more important than her instrument.
So, if you were involved in a horrific accident and you had one of your instruments with you, would you be more concerned about saving your instrument at the cost of your life? Of course you wouldn't. Your life is more precious than all the gold in the world. Your life is priceless.
mindem
(1,580 posts)I would do everything in my power to retrieve my instruments - it is not up to anyone else to determine what is important to me or any other person. No one has the right to assign value to the components of another persons life. To be dismissive of the importance of a valuable instrument to an artist is naive.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)You just didn't understand what I was writing. But I'll quit trying to make you see the gist of my argument which had nothing to do with your or other peoples instruments.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)moreover, this is her livelihood and at times violins are harder to replace than even rare LPs.
As I posted above, where I was an EMT we tried our level best to reunite people with stuff when possible. It was not in any medical manual...so don't go looking. People just did better. We made that observation. So we incorporated it into the planning.
I posted above about the chickens. We transported people to the ER with pets, wheelchairs, tape collections, photo albums, favorite blankie, toys, I gave toys to kids too. The rarest was a rare 17th century ceramic cup. Why on earth our patient had it I have no idea. But we took her, and her precious cup to the ER.
A few times a beloved dog followed their owner...this is before the age of you tube, so when somebody posted video of dog doing that I was not surprised.
To her that instrument is far more than just stuff. 15 minutes into it asking for it back is not shocking or surprising.
I don't expect it, but people chastising her for it are telling the rest of the world far more about themselves than they realize. It isn't nice either. They are finding a bunch of self important folks who agree with them and are not capable of empathy it seems.
Yes 7 people died, chastising her will not bring them back. 60 plus were taken to hospital. Many more were just lucky to walk away. That does not mean the best level effort should not be made to reunite people with stuff. I hope they do...somehow though I don't expect it. We have become a very self absorbed and cruel society. These incidents are extremely revealing of that lack of community.
I was thinking of a plate as well.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You seem to believe that everyone reacts to shock in the same manner. I don't think that's the case...
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)I didn't realize what was going on until I was being pulled out of my upside down SUV and being put on a stretcher. It was all so surreal. It was like I was dreaming as I looked at my almost flat upside down SUV and albums strewn all over the freeway. The EMTs were telling me not to talk because I was babbling and not making sense.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I am glad you survived, it sounds rather traumatic.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)The reaction to that story was like seeing a pack of hyenas tearing apart a carcass. They were piling on to get her fired.
Hopefully her employer shows more sense and resists the mob.
murielm99
(30,717 posts)Her instruments are very expensive. I have a brother who was a musician with similar training and an expensive musical instrument.
I fully understand why this woman was concerned about her instrument and her livelihood. Yes, those instruments are insured. But replacing them and adjusting to a new instrument is difficult.
It is hard to explain the relationship, but I would defend this musician and her reactions.
Maybe there were other people on this train who were in shock. Maybe they said and did things that people outside the situation would find inappropriate. I have a feeling first responders have seen it all. They react with kindness and do what needs to be done.
This crap needs to stop right now. What is wrong with people?
Hekate
(90,561 posts)I'm really getting to hate cyber-mobs.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)instead of hanging a person these days, we just kill their reputation instead. Some, deservedly so, some, not so much. The people that gang up on others would be like the people who threw fruit at the person being executed.
WestSideStory
(91 posts)
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)because there WILL be consequences.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)a bunch of self-righteous busybodies with no stake in the matter will bully you into submission if you dare say something that doesn't meet their idiotic concern trolling approval.
Those consequences, you mean?
Mobs of cyber bullies suck.
mainer
(12,018 posts)People who were so quick to condemn that musician should be held to public account for every thoughtless thing THEY'VE ever said.
mainer
(12,018 posts)wanting to be reunited with the only photo album of her deceased children? Or the only recording of her mother's voice?
Those are just "things", too. But somehow we'd all give her a pass and understand her attachment to mere objects.
A violin, which is a cherished "object" is no different.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)along with asking for her violin back.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)is that you're sending those thoughts out to everyone. Not to just one or two people.
While the criticism of the violinist is over the top, people who use the social media need to understand to what extent they're broadcasting to the entire world.
Why I don't Tweet, and rarely post anything on FB. Even here on DU, which is a much smaller universe, people constantly get vilified for expressing something or another.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)
catrose
(5,059 posts)They told us not to write anything in a letter that we wouldn't want to see on the front page of the newspaper. For the "What's a letter? What's a newspaper?" folks, it translates just as well to FB post, Twitter, email, etc.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)that I have a good retail relationship with Hanes.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)You'd think by now those who are such heavy users of the social media, especially Twitter, would have noticed by now that what they post can go a very long way very quickly. It's not as though this is a very recent thing.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)your concepts and the concepts of heavy users of twitter insofar as privacy are different. You are also justifying cyber bullying, but that is another story.
I work with sources that range from 80+ all the way to many of our youth leaders. Many of our youth leaders see the twitter and facebook as you see the phone. I am serious as a heart attack. They are also far more comfortable texting and using text based communications than the phone.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)who broadcasts his or her thoughts on something like Twitter, and then is surprised when there's some pushback, somehow hasn't been paying much attention to it. This isn't like being bullied at school, because for the most part kids are required to go to school. And there it can be very difficult to avoid the bullies. But posting something on Twitter? Not required. Avoidable.
Again, I want to stress that I think the bullies are at best jerks, but I'm just amazed that anyone is ever surprised at this.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)she included the word please in it.
Anybody under 30 understands this precisely for what it is. Some are jerks about it, but it is what it is,.
What should surprise you is the level of heartlessness we are seeing. It is each person for itself and that false sense of morality.
On the plus side, many of her tormentors will do the same sooner or later. But if they are male... they will have little to fear. Yes, there are plenty of studies on this as well.
And I will add this for your reading pleasure
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2014/11/10/now-will-twitter-take-online-harassment-of-women-seriously/
catrose
(5,059 posts)As a former orchestra musician, Red Cross disaster volunteer, and Amtrak rider, I empathized with Ms. Kim. Reading the other thread and the various articles and comments gave me a new list of DU Ignores and more confirmation my theory that people think that possessing an Internet connection makes them an expert on everything. (Yes, she probably had insurance; no, it wasn't kicking in before her next gig, which was probably that day; no, there isn't a box of spare violins for such emergencies. And, no, she wasn't leaving the site without her violin, though she was probably running late for her next gig.)
No one seems to see any irony in pounding her and cursing for her lack of compassion and manners. They're good examples, aren't they? And they don't have the excuse of being in a train wreck.
I was going to send a message of support to her orchestra, expressing sympathy and promises of contribution to to any fund set up for her, if she needs it, but I didn't see a way to email them. Maybe other people won't either.
Demit
(11,238 posts)I think this is true; I agree with this writer.
bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)He was on MSNBC by phone stating that the train was going ~50mph while they were still pulling folks from the wreckage. Lots of what he said from the scene now looks foolish, but he was just in a horrific train wreck and MSNBC should have been more circumspect.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)
-none
(1,884 posts)from those that would be more at home on DI.
One would think Democrats, on a Democratic web site, would be more sympathetic to those on that train, injured or otherwise. Guess not.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)I defended her in the original thread.
People are so cruel.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)the response would not have been so hateful.
You know it's true.
I hope some of those mean bullies are in wrecks this week.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)...when they are under stress.
Of course, I'm sure some people made return comments that were horrible, but she gets to own her insensitive post. I'm glad she has friends who will ignore her recent behavior and focus on her past behavior.
That's what friends are for.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)being concerned about the thing that lets her earn her livelihood.
Wow.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)Its not that she wanted her violin back at some point (of course anyone would), but that she decided to make a public, snarky tweet while they were pulling out the inured and dead.
Yeah, I know musicians who wouldn't because of their sense of humanity. Maybe you don't.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)tend to be extremely rare and expensive
And she made the tweet 15 minutes after the crash. She was certainly in a daze herself and worried about her means of making a living. No instrument, no play, no pay.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)And if you do know musicians, you know they share and borrow instruments all the time when their preferred instruments are unavailable.
I don't think this person is evil or deserving of anything other than some contempt equal to her snark and callousness.
catrose
(5,059 posts)Unless someone next to her on the train was bleeding or crushed, she probably didn't know about injuries and deaths.
Thanks, fellow musician, for defending a fellow musician.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)
Some folks are self righteous *&((^^%((
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Had to sell it to a friend to pay rent, but I still have my ol' Fender Jazz "player's" bass. Japan-made and not collectible but tricked out just the way I want and it plays like a dream - best Jazz I have owned out of eight since 1972.
Musicians, especially orchestral pros, get more attached to their instruments than almost anything else. They are an extension of the self. Back when I had my Alembic bass and my kitteh was still alive, those were the two things I'd have run into my house to save if the house were on fire. Butch and the Alembic, in that order.
catrose
(5,059 posts)I hope I'd get to the cello after the kittehs, but first things first.
Once we were on tour when the airline pilot decided that those cellos and basses had to go down below with the luggage. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth (not to mention inspecting with a bright light and proverbial fine tooth comb afterwards).
And then there was a time a forklift at the airport ran over a cello...not mine, but still.
Glad some non-musicians get it too!
ProfessorGAC
(64,854 posts). . .was also one of the victims of a train wreck. People seem to be forgetting that detail
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Some people's kids, Professor......
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)WOW
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but hey, that is another story. Thanks.
(And I do not mean the accident victim 15 minutes after the accident either. Her reaction was not out of the norm.)
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)...and back up your statement that her tweet was "not out of the norm"
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I am not reposting all of that for your benefit.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)accident, within 15 min of the accident. Did she post others too?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but the blame the victim and vicious attacks started almost immediately. It was classic, it was brutish, it was nasty. It should not have been.
And her tweet is NOT outside of the ordinary for an accident victim.
haele
(12,640 posts)Back when I was 16 and wanting to be a professional musician, if twitter was around, I would have tweeted something similar right after I got myself together at a crash site if my $7000 viola was left behind.
Now-a-days, if I was in her situation and didn't have that $7000 viola with me, I would have been making snarky comments about AMTRAK and probably Gomez Addams as I would be heading back to the crash site to see how I could help survivors.
I'm not the type either jumping in heroically like the first responder heroine or piously rocking and weeping like the noble victims in the media.
I'm sardonic, a bit of snark helps me center quickly, then get to the work that needs to be done.
So I'm just as bad as she is.
Unlike a lot of people who are judging her actions, I have been in a disaster. I've been the survivor. I've had to be a rescuer when I was hurt myself. There is no level in victimhood - you're either a victim or not. There's only a magnitude of damage.
I know there's a wide f'n range of reaction, and those reactions have not a damn thing to do with that person's actual morals, ethics, or personal strengths and flaws.
While her comments may have been in bad taste - well, guilty as charged, myself. I've said worse under stress.
Haele
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)News crews avoid the people screaming at the sky, or crying, or babbling nonsense. Those do not make for good tv... in the US. (In other places yes, media looks for those).
I recently witnessed something that had me going WTF? We had some of the families of the 43 missing students. It's been five months So I asked questions like, did your actions force the AG to resign (they did), or about the elections which they are asking for a general boycott.
Reporter, who had not done his homework, asked the equivalent of HOW DO YOU FEEL! Mom of one of these kids looked shocked and ready to punch him, not that I can blame her either. It was quite frankly, surreal.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)haele
(12,640 posts)Unless you've had the experience, you can't understand how difficult it is to think about anything but your survival and the survival of the things that give you comfort until you can center and catch your breath. In my experience, it can take several hours before a person who has never been in a disaster can get down from trauma. And since not everyone reacts the same way (fight or flight), you can't script how a victim is supposed to act. Lifeguards have been drowned by people they went out to rescue. Hell, others at the crash were lucky Ms. Kim didn't go into a screaming and clawing fit while she was being rescued and hurt more people flailing around in panic.
Most first responders have to be trained to be able to go into an observation and analysis mode immediately. It's very rare for most people to be anything other than egocentric when they're in a stress situation.
And snarking on the situation is a very mild reaction along the scale of things that could have been done by a victim trying to get a grip on what is going on and doesn't know what to do next.
While one may be offended that someone didn't react the way one would have scripted an accident victim to react, Ms. Kim's reaction was pretty similar to the way a good 20% of the general population would react. Including me, and probably most anyone who has been in the military, or spent a lot of time on dangerous jobs, or were a first responder.
If you would have reacted differently, good on you. But 1) she didn't interfere with any of the rescuers and 2) while she may have been flip the company that ran the train, she wasn't dis-respecting any of her fellow victims, nor appeared to be diminishing what happened. She was a victim, in the process of getting herself together, and this is a personal process for anyone.
I can't judge her harshly, because I know something of what she has gone through. But I can explain to people who obviously have not experienced what she has that her reaction cannot be scripted, nor is there any historical or moral standard as to how she can be expected to act in the situation in which she found herself.
And for all those who want to stifle a victim's genuine reaction to stress by saying "well, she should have known better than to tweet anything" -
"Well, people should know better than to build in Tornado Alley or on a flood plain", "he should have known better than to be DWB" or "She should have known better than to get drunk at a party with people she thought were friends"
Haele
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)But we differ, I think, in our opinion about whether or not she should be criticized for publicly broadcasting her snark/egocentrism on twitter.
haele
(12,640 posts)If you've never been in her shoes or are not impacted directly by the crash, it's all just a pile on.
Unfortunately, technology makes it very easy to continue to mob-jump on anyone who makes a mistake under stress.
What would be the difference between calling up AMTRAK's hotline and saying the same thing, or what she tweeted to AMTRAK?
Nothing but the initial reaction of a few who enjoy stirring up the pot and getting people in trouble, and then a good portion of the media deciding that this is nothing more than a game of "how dare she be so elitist and cold - let's pile on and stone the witch".
She didn't make a racist or sexist comment. She didn't mock or disrespect any of the victims. She wasn't mean of vicious. She was just a bit more uppity than people thought she should be, she apparently wasn't properly mindful of her situation - in other people's viewpoint.
And that's why it's a big deal to me. She could have been me, she could be my stepdaughter, or she could eventually be my grand-daughter. Hounded and possibly ruined, because she wasn't "good and pliable" enough, or she didn't seem to be "concerned enough".
Because ten to fifteen minutes after she was tossed around like a rag doll, she was apparently an uppity, snarky bitch to AMTRAK for injuring her and her livelihood.
Haele
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)I don't think we're going to change each other's mind so I'll stop posting after this.
She tweeted to the world and the world responded.some people went overboard with criticism.
Logical
(22,457 posts)and missing work and she whines about her violin.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)she is also missing work
But she is a stupid woman who closed her account... becuase of the harassment from mostly MEN.
At least you did not use the term hysterical. I guess that is progress. 
What? You think you can find concert level instruments just anywhere?
Try empathy.
Logical
(22,457 posts)would be an idiot also. Wow, what a reach.
Some people are still in the fucking hospital. Think she would of traded her violin for a hospital stay.
Like I said, she was stupid and uncaring. And could of said she was sorry.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and your point? 15 minutes after the accident this is not out of the norm whatsoever.
You might call it a reach. I call it reality.
Having empathy for her, does not preclude having empathy for the rest.
But given I am a woman and I have been run out of here already once, and I am only posting on this thread because of that, I have some insight you lack. You are blaming the victim of a pack of hyenas on Twitter. And that is exactly what they are.
Logical
(22,457 posts)need to alert more posters.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)ah yes, blame the victim... but you are doing it anyhoo, so why should I be surprised?
Have an excellent day once again, Feel free to have the last word.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/17/harassment-of-women-is-nothing-new-the-internet-just-makes-it-easier.html
https://plus.google.com/+DonDenton/posts/4mSokFunoHG
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/women-online-harassment_b_2567898.html
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/let-s-be-real-online-harassment-isn-t-virtual-for-women
Logical
(22,457 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Shock is funny, can make you do and say odd things. If she then went on to "whine about her violin", then I might say something, but right after a serious accident? She gets a pass.
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)to jump on the next outrage bandwagon?
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Social media detaches the person from the post and strangers can and do react based on the post content alone. Pillory is the right term to use -- we are very much moving back to a time when public shaming was the norm.
As I wrote in the original thread, her tweets seemed snarky and inappropriate even though I fully understand why she focused on recovery of her violin. To her it is very much like an extension of herself. So to musicians and those who know her, the way it was written is easily forgiven as a stress reaction.
To others, it's time for the pillory.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the fact that she was a she, has a lot to do with this as well.
on point
(2,506 posts)Of course, and a rare violin is no different.
MuseRider
(34,095 posts)if my case was lost. 3 professional level clarinets in 3 keys. Personally chosen among many and lovingly played and cared for. I don't know this story but if you make your living this way it would be pretty tragic feeling.
I hope she has found it.
RKP5637
(67,088 posts)MH1
(17,573 posts)I'm guessing there's a good chance she didn't know the extent of the tragedy at the time she sent that. Even if she had an idea, it's not crazy that she was focused on salvaging something so important to her life.
I'm getting tired of how so many people want to pile on a complete stranger for some supposed wrong when they do not know the circumstances, and goddamn it if they're so fucking perfect then why aren't they in Congress and the White House fixing everything that's wrong with this country anyway?
Skittles
(153,113 posts)THEY KNOW HER
when she puts her thoughts out in public, PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW HER WILL COMMENT. And sounding like you care more about a possession than than the fate of other passengers SOUNDS BAD.
Is that so hard to understand?
mindem
(1,580 posts)She plays a 1907 Vincenzo Postiglione that would have a minimum valuation of around $25,000 - it is not the type of possession a person casually leaves behind.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)nope, that is not something you leave behind.
AnnieBW
(10,413 posts)Or stolen. She's probably got it insured out the wazoo. People don't know how they will respond in situations like that. Cut the poor woman a break. She was traumatized, and she was concerned about a very valuable piece that she uses for her livelihood.
