If President Obama declared that all firstborns be put to the sword...

[WilliamPitt]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by hrmjustin (a host of the General Discussion forum).

...some people here would defend it and champion it. "Overpopulation, you know."

Fascinating stuff.

[BeyondGeography]

1. And if he dramatically improved access to health care

Some people here would call him a piece of shit used car salesman.

[rbnyc]

2. He passed a compromised piece of crap...

..with just enough salvageable material in it to produce bullet points for his PR team.

[KittyWampus]

7. I am one of those people who ended up qualifying for Medicaid and had several medical issues

treated just before they turned into major issues.

So you are wrong.

[rbnyc]

9. I'm glad for you...

...But that's an anecdote.

There are obviously some good things in the bill, i.e. salvageable material. But it leaves many serious issues unsolved and really doesn't address the heart of the matter.

For me - which is also anecdotal - insurance through my employer continues to be more expensive and more restrictive each year. My employer can't afford to give raises because of the percentage of premiums they pay. I can barely afford to keep us in groceries because of the percentage of premium I pay, an I can't afford to use it and my local hospital doesn't even accept it. I'm probably going to die of an untreated condition while spending a huge chunk oft salary on this shit.

[Ms. Yertle]

13. My son's premium

tripled.

Medicaid could have been expanded to cover the uninsured without affecting everyone else's insurance.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. What State do you live in? Medicaid was expanded in States that did not refuse to

expand it due to being Republican idiots. That's why everyone I know who was without insurance now has it, they get dental care, the works, no charges of any kind. About 380,000 Oregonians were added to the Medicaid roles-we call it the Oregon Health Plan-here and the expansion occurred in I think 28 other States as well.

[Ms. Yertle]

33. We live in Michigan

Just don't understand why we needed the ACA, when Medicaid could have been expanded to cover the uninsured. Not everyone needed all the provisions of the ACA . . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Because Medicaid was designed to insure those living below the poverty line./NT

[geek tragedy]

74. Medicaid is a needs-based program, and it's voluntary for the states to participate in any expansion

of it. Thanks to the Supreme Court.

They could have expanded it to include everyone, but the votes weren't there for single payer.

[Jamastiene]

82. It would have included me but

my shitty governor wouldn't do the Medicaid expansion.

[1monster]

41. Yes to this! The premiums are very high and the insurance refuses to

pay out to my doctors. I've tried changing insurance twice now and still they say I have to see doctors I've never even heard of rather than the doctors I've used for thirty years.

[staggerleem]

102. Here's the scam my new insurer is trying to pull.

All my old doctors are listed as participating in their network - but the medical groups to which they belong, and through which they are contractually obligated to bill, are non-participants. So, when the ins-co gets the bill from the group, they deny payment.

They actually told me that the ONLY way to find out whether or not a given practice will be paid is to submit a claim. Roll them dice - Wall Street is a casino, and so, apparently, is health care!

[snappyturtle]

51. I hear you. Some equate having insurance with having healthcare. nt

[whereisjustice]

57. My premium has gone up over $100 a month and benefits reduced, literally a pay cut

Why? For the sin of having a group plan. At the steady rate of inflation, in a few years, my health care costs for a group plan will be $15,000 a year with no dental. About the same as ACA is today for fam 4. Because I am over the max. to qualify, I get a big fat pay cut to pay for ACA.

When I said ACA was a gift to corporate Americans and had no provisions for cost control and would be paid for by increased premiums by those with group plans, I was called "Obama hater".

Millions of us took massive pay cuts to fund ACA. We have every right to be angry about the way that bill was shoved down our throats.

Just like TPP.

Yet, I'm told somehow the magic of the market will make up for it.

Bullshit.

The middle class pays for both rich and poor.

[Cleita]

66. Good for you. You are in the minority of Americans who can qualify for what is

single payer in our baroque health care system. The rest are senior citizens. The majority still have to cope with private insurers who are now feeding at the government trough. Your Medicaid would be far more efficient and comprehensive if those parasites were not allowed to be in the mix for basic health care like what happens in most other countries, and the money used to pay better fees to doctors and hospitals instead of profits for Wall Street.

Still, I'm happy that some are able to get health care now who couldn't before.

[KittyWampus]

72. Not just good for me- good for MANY who also qualified for Medicaid in states

who took funding, to those whose insurance became affordable or available at all.

[Cleita]

78. Oh so you got yours and the hell with everyone else who still have to

cope with private insurance? I'm on Medicare and still have to put out $300 a month for health insurance on my Social Security. That money funneled to the private insurance companies could give Medicare recipients full coverage instead and Medicaid recipients better coverage.

[staggerleem]

108. Excuse me?? All he did was SIGN it!

Congress PASSED the compromised piece of crap - after Joe Lieberman pretty much single-handedly killed single-payer.

Nobody ever even suggested it was a perfect plan - but it IS a start. It gives us something to "fix", if we can ever manage to get some SANE people elected to Congress.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

114. If we really want better health care

the place to get it is Congress, not in the Oval Office...........

[MannyGoldstein]

8. many children living in used cars today

thanks to free trade agreements.

[L0oniX]

44. ^^^this^^^

[Octafish]

52. Wealthiest times in HUMAN HISTORY.

David Stockman reported 7/8th of ALL wealth has been created in the last 32 years.

Guess where most of it has ended up?

[Jackpine Radical]

62. But hey, the cars are cheaper without the tariffs.

Why can't you get with the program, Manny?

[Bobbie Jo]

113. Such disingenuous bullshit

I'd be willing to bet that you've never been within 10 miles of "children living in used cars."

Speaking from experience as one who has actually sheltered these kids, (for the last 25 years) I'm here to tell you that it wasn't a result of any free trade agreement.

One need not look any further than the policies of the Reagan administration to find that the very concept of homeless kids began right then and there. The very administration that YOU directly enabled and supported.

When I see privileged people like you speak to (and in this case make light of) the plight of homeless children in this country without the slightest inkling about what is going on out there, it makes me wanna puke. My very job was created by an Obama Administration initiative to address homeless youth; a chronic issue which can be traced straight back to Reagan and his enablers.

I've been pulling kids out of "used cars" for damn near 30 years. Didn't see you out there... Your flippant righteous indignation rings hollow with me.

Phony...

Will gladly take my hide here.

[MannyGoldstein]

118. By Reagan's policies that Obama claims he's still devoted to?

But I swore off 30+ years ago?

Seriously, your arguments boil down to "it doesn't matter if Obama's a self-proclaimed 1980's Republican because he's Obama."

Free trade agreements have destroyed millions of American jobs - do you disagree? If you cannot comprehend how that relates to children living in cars, I'm not sure what can be done.

[bigtree]

3. ffs

...that's obscene and its pure bullshit.

[Android3.14]

56. Except when it isn't

The cult of personality for our President is pervasive on DU.

[bigtree]

75. then say THAT

...better yet, take the time and effort to actually address whoever you disagree with.

This is just offensive flamebait, and dirt-dumb bait, at that; not contributing to any debate more substantive than the poster's petty pique. It's a cheap and currish way of dodging a discussion. What's sad is that most of those applauding this statement are distilling and retrofitting it into whatever suits their own pique.

Who here would defend President Obama if he "declared that all firstborns be put to the sword?"

Anyone?

[Dem2]

4. Obamacare would allow said 1st born to be sewn back up

...at minimal cost.

1st born strawman, that is.

[BreakfastClub]

5. So if someone agrees with Obama on the trade issue, s/he is simply

a blind follower. I disagree. Just because you agree with someone, doesn't mean you are a mindless drone. Maybe some people would support Obama no matter what, but I think those numbers are so extremely small that they are negligible.

[JDPriestly]

49. How could any thinking person agree with Obama on the TPP?

Another trade deal is the last thing we need in this country.

NAFTA nearly killed our economy.

How anyone can see anything positive in another trade deal of this kind is beyond me. The TPP is a corporate coup.

Please read this Stiglitz article.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-secret-corporate-takeover-hidden-in-the-tpp-2015-05-13

The TPP is no less than a corporate coup.

And if you think that any country is going to import more of our products because we sign this agreement, you are utterly wrong. If that were possible, we would be exporting more to Canada and Mexico which have strong cultural ties to us and which as our neighbors could import from us at low transportation costs.

No. The TPP is another way to grab American jobs (what is left since NAFTA and computers grabbed so many) and money.

The TPP is a corporate coup. The courts it will set up will make us pay and pay. We may not have lost cases yet but we will. And just the cost of defending our country against huge multinational corporations is a waste. We have an excellent judicial system. It was set up by our Constitution. We do not need to allow corporations to over-ride the legislative and judicial systems set up by our Constitution and that is precisely what the TPP courts are intended to do.

The horror of it cannot be exaggerated.

No to the TPP. It is a corporate coup.

You have only yourself to blame. Remember this ten years from now if it passes. You will regret it. As will we all.

[ieoeja]

65. Some people still believe the Globalization theory will work.

While horrible for American labor, Globalization has been great for the world’s poor. I worked with people in Indonesia when the business district in downtown Jakarta had dirt roads and the power company had to shut off power at night. Today, it looks like any big American city.


American labor was expected to contract. But that was going to be okay. Because we would be investing in 401(k)s. By the time the big hurt came, most of us would have such large investments that most of us would not have to work.

That, of course, did not happen. But either the true believers don’t see it, because in their circles everyone really is heavily invested, or believe it is just a temporary phenomena that will eventually work its way out. Yes, there are those who simply don’t care and enjoy fucking us. But there are true believers as well.

[JDPriestly]

69. And true believers are often rigid thinkers who can't flow with reality.

The fact is I thought NAFTA wouldn't be so bad. But it has been just terrible for our job market.

And while we enter into all these trade agreements, we have done nothing at home to encourage the formation of creative industrial companies, companies that produce products that could sell in other countries, nothing to improve the understanding of Americans about how other countries and the world works, what is wanted outside our borders, etc.

And we have done nothing to make life easier for ordinary Americans. If our pay cannot go up, then let the corporation's and wealthy people who benefit from all this free trade pay for better education, better but less expensive pre-school and day-care for our children, safer infrastructure, parks and recreation, better nursing care for seniors (cheaper also) and more home ownership. But the powers that be in our country have never made up for the loss in our job market by funding job-creating and socially stimulating programs. That, they say, is socialism. But they manipulate our system with their trade agreements so as to push down our wages and eliminate our jobs, and that, they claim is "free" market capitalism. There is nothing free about it. It is manipulated so as to benefit the very wealthy.

The wealthy in this country, and I do not believe that it is a flaw in capitalism that is causing this, but rather a lack of morality among our wealthy, are literally stealing from the poor in order to pay for their yachts and multiple houses and "investments" in countries that will double-cross them in the wink of an eye.

But that is what you get when you trust greedy, immoral people who believe that they answer to no one.

[sabrina 1]

89. Did those same people agree with Bush when he tried, in 2007 to Fast Track

his Trade Bill?

Airc, there was outrage all over the Liberal blogosphere at the very idea that such power be given to ANY president, that Congress be denied the right to change a bill once it had been Fast Tracked.

Much the same arguments being made now by those who still oppose it.

IF those now supporting it supported it back then, because it IS the same thing, then at least they are being consistent.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Some can't admit it's a global world, Will

The Chinese have had a one-child-per-family policy for decades. Our retroactive version is just playing catch-up, before it's too late.

Regards,

No-other-President-would-be-treated-like-this Manny

[R B Garr]

11. You forgot to add "nuff said".

[OKNancy]

12. So over-the-top post that it is ridiclous

What is fascinating is that good writers can wake up and post crap.

[SidDithers]

14. And if President Obama said that kittens are cute...

some people here would say "Fuck you, Mr. President, you piece of shit used car salesman", because they were dog people.

Sid

[leftofcool]

27. +1

[Hoyt]

40. [phone]

[Jamastiene]

90. Actually, I don't think he would ever say that.

I just have a gut feeling that he doesn't like cats at all. He might would hide that to pose for a photo op or something, but I just don't take him as a cat person at all.

[steve2470]

106. + a googol nt

[Paladin]

15. That's beneath you, WilliamPitt. (nt)

[blue neen]

17. It used to be, but not anymore.

Sad.

[SidDithers]

39. +1...nt

Sid

[mythology]

103. It should be, but obviously it isn't.

[jeff47]

104. Nah, he's down to claiming people hacked Intuit

when people use stolen SSNs to file tax returns via TurboTax.

[sufrommich]

16. ......

[GusBob]

18. If some star QB got caught cheating.....

eom

[Fuddnik]

19. Nothing like whacking the hornets nest first thing in the morning!

[rbnyc]

22. Lol

[ibewlu606]

20. Rec'd

Good post, some people just don't get.....even after yesterday's betrayal.

[JaneyVee]

21. Overpopulation is a serious issue.

[Ed Suspicious]

25. Not in America. We're pretty well below replacement rate by any reasonable

demographic analysis.

[JaneyVee]

26. I was joking....just taking the bait.

This op is ridiculously dumb.

[Ed Suspicious]

23. All the tut-tutting and the "for shame, WilliamPitt" is fascinating.

I see that it's done along party lines.

[OilemFirchen]

67. Which "party" would that be?

[Brainstormy]

24. With Democrats like you

who needs Republicans? Offensive post.

[99Forever]

28. Yup.

[Whiskeytide]

30. The drone, man. "Put them to the...

... drone". This is not medevial England.

[pampango]

31. That is pretty much what republicans say about 'mindless' Democrats and their blind loyalty.

Nothing new under the sun. Just the source changes.

[NaturalHigh]

34. I hate the TPP as much as anybody...

but do you even realize how stupid this OP is? Do you really need and crave attention that badly?

[HelenWheels]

35. Only Republican first born? nt

[Broward]

36. Well, if the Republicans declared firstborns and secondborns be put to the sword then of course.

Lesser of two evils and all that crap.

[a kennedy]

37. Guess it's back to the lounge for me.

GD is going nuts. Hope I can make it through this election cycle. Whew.

[DFW]

46. I sympathize

I grew up in Virginia, got super-saturated with the American Civil War at a very young age.

Then I lived in Spain, got saturated by another Civil War in my teens.

Not gonna be dragged into this one. I just hope the one on the Republican side is this vicious.

[renegade000]

116. I think Montagnards vs. Girondists is perhaps the best analogy...

I can see the different "factions" of DU occupying the same emotional, rhetorical, and relative political spaces as those two groups.

I guess that's not really a more appealing comparison, but...

[Peacetrain]

38. I had to sign in to respond to this hyperbole!

We all know how you feel about the President.. You have made that more than clear.. and you can embrace your feelings all you want..... but seriously.. think about what you just wrote, and what you are accusing people of..

Your post:

If President Obama declared that all firstborns be put to the sword...

...some people here would defend it and champion it. "Overpopulation, you know."

Fascinating stuff.

Fascinating does not even begin to describe this op ...seriously strange

[MineralMan]

42. Over the top, and then some.

The premise is ridiculous, and you know it. Your conclusion, based on that premise, is incorrect.

You can do better than this, Will. I know you can.

[NuclearDem]

43. If only Obama were the Patriots' QB...

[a2liberal]

45. Wow, the truth really hurts some people's feelings! (n/t)

[stevenleser]

47. A proper metaphor to describe how much you have jumped the shark here would require

that the shark be first put into orbit... around Jupiter.

[KittyWampus]

83. Obama is Pharaoh and Bernie Sanders is Moses.

All the more amusing since Sanders is Jewish.

[countingbluecars]

48. Too ridiculous

to even be insulting.

[DFW]

50. It's probably beside the point to point this out, but....

Last edited Thu May 14, 2015, 11:27 AM - Edit history (1)

Where the OP says "President Obama," substitute Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Martin O'Malley, or even Howard Dean, and the statement wouldn't be any different, i.e. a little too heavy on decibel count for my taste.

[steve2470]

100. +1 nt

[BKH70041]

53. I've personally observed it from many people here.

I would include you as one of the many. And it's not exclusive to the particular topic at hand.

I'd frame it differently, that is, "If someone's ideology declared that X is the way for an issue to be viewed, people here would defend X and champion it. Ideology trumps truth."

It's in areas like this that the rank and file fall short, leaving an easily observable running sore on the face of the Democratic Party for the average person to see and be repulsed. Issues are 10,000 shades of gray, but sometime people are so busy looking at the different shades that they miss the simple black and white.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled ideologically based musings of the majority of posters. Truth will be somewhere else laughing its ass off.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

54. Oh, come on.

Sometimes hyperbole makes a useful point; sometimes it's just dumb. This is dumb. You can do better.

[treestar]

55. He'd never do that

Don't know why this trade treaty has got so many people hysterical. Or how you've all managed to drum up so much shit on it. You know the powers that be would not rock the boat drastically. You know we were still here after NAFTA. China has 1/4 the population of the world. They are trying to harness that. Thinking otherwise is the usual insane conspiracy theory about how the banksters are all meeting up somewhere to screw us all. They aren't that organized.

[stonecutter357]

58. you seem concerned

[TheSarcastinator]

59. Followers are ALWAYS Followers

Authoritarianism is as bi-partisan as war fever.

[cali]

60. This is shit stirring hyperbole. I think folks here know how strongly I oppose the TPP

I haven't made a secret of my puzzlement and and yes, disdain for decisions being rooted in faith in the President regarding trade agreements like the TPP. But the OP, though it may be born out of frustration, is just absurd.

[Ryano42]

61. Nothing like a reasonable thread to bring us all together...

Oh yeah, he is also just exactly the same as George W. Bush also. Also too. In addition. Yea verily.

Seven Gods, I love the DU Lounge...

[KG]

63. heh.

[George II]

70. You could say the same thing about Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders

[stevenleser]

71. More so with both IMHO. Any mild criticism of either is met with extreme outrage. Even non

criticism, just asking how they would get their agenda accomplished if elected results in tirades from their supporters.

[Cleita]

91. That's bullshit and you know it.

We supporters zwill speak out if lies and inaccuracies are put out and they are being put out in abundance. For instance: Hillary has more experience that Bernie. Fact: Bernie has spent almost three decades in Congress and public service. Hillary has a term in the Senate and a term as SoS. So you tell me who has the most experience. This meme is all over DU as are many others that are untrue about both Bernie and Elizabeth and supporters will speak out when called upon.

[stevenleser]

93. It's not bullshit. I encounter it all the time. nt

[Cleita]

97. I gave you an example. Now you give me one to prove your statement. eom

[Cleita]

73. No you couldn't. Their Senate records prove otherwise and both have

spoken out vociferously against these trade agreements which is what the OP is really referring to metaphorically.

[stevenleser]

85. Will's "point" is not about records its about supporter reaction to records/criticism, etc. nt

[madamesilverspurs]

76. That's uncalled for, Will.

You're better than this.

[JTFrog]

77. I love the smell of strawman fallacy in the morning.

It smells of weakness and desperation.

[Cleita]

81. You still don't know what a straw man is?

The OP is using a metaphor. Really get the straw out of your head.

[JTFrog]

84. Oh bullshit.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

For example:

Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions.
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

And your personal attacks are as lame as ever.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. It's a straw man...

He is ascribing to his opponents a position they don't hold to ridicule and dismiss them. Pitt is accusing posters of a slavish devotion to President Obama that there is no proof exists...

straw man
noun
a person compared to a straw image; a sham.
a sham argument set up to be defeated.

[stevenleser]

92. It's actually a pretty classic case of a strawman. He is intentionally altering Obama supporters

statements and opinions, reducing them to a simplistic and silly fake example, and then beating up that altered and silly opinion.

[Cleita]

96. William Pitt was an English teacher. If he says it is, then I'll acquiesce. eom

[stevenleser]

98. Defending one logical fallacy by using another logical fallacy?

You might want to look up the appeal to authority fallacy.

[JTFrog]

99. So if Pitt declared that all firstborns be put to the sword....

Maybe you see where I'm going with this?

[Cryptoad]

79. Where did you get than titbit Red State dot Com. ?

[Jamastiene]

80. I would be that some would go ahead and do it themselves...

just to "have his back" on that policy. Then they will tell the rest of us that we never loved him.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

86. Being a firstborn, I'd hope it's not retroactive.

But if it is, it's still an improvement over any Republican plan.

[ileus]

88. He to this point is the best hope we have....why not support him, in everything.

Soon though we'll have Hillary.

[quickesst]

94. the definition...

... Of irrelevant, and becoming more so with every post. offensive

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. Lord Acton

[Paladin]

111. Lord Acton would be unhappy with Bernie and his DU acolytes. (nt)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. We may find out if Bernie votes for or supports the TPP.

[steve2470]

101. ott and so wrong nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

105. Babies on spikes. It's the American Dream:

[struggle4progress]

107. When some here compare Mr Obama to a baby-killer, others hurry to agree

[sufrommich]

110. Some Meta OPs are more equal than others. nt

[SCantiGOP]

109. No, they wouldn't

No one on here would.

[NCTraveler]

112. I am guessing this is about the TPP.

There is beyond overwhelming opposition to the TPP at du. That makes your op pointless and based somewhere other than reality.

"Some" in this instances is a pathetic way of attempting division. Very pathetic as some probably means fewer than one percent. What is fascinating is how you can post this op knowing that support for the TPP on du is beyond anemic, yet that almost invisible support weighs on you.

[GusBob]

117. In real news , unemployment claims fall to 15 year low

As mr no credibility would say *ahem* 15 years

WP and his sycophants make me smile. The guy hasn't been right about anything around here ever, going back to fitsmas. And people still fall for his bullshit

[hrmjustin]

119. Locking.

DISRUPTIVE META-DISCUSSION
Positive threads about Democratic Underground or its members are are permitted.

Threads complaining about Democratic Underground or its members; threads complaining about jury decisions, locked threads, suspensions, bannings, or the like; and threads intended to disrupt or negatively influence the normal workings of Democratic Underground and its community moderating system are not permitted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025307978