MATT TAIBBI: The Democratic Party Would TRIANGULATE Its Own Mother

[Segami]

Barack Obama made headlines this week by taking on Sen. Elizabeth Warren in a dispute over our latest labor-crushing free trade deal, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The president's anger over Warren's decision to lead the Senate in blocking his authority to fast-track the TPP was heavily covered by the Beltway media, which loves a good intramural food fight. It was quite a show, which was the first clue that something wasn't quite right in this picture. The Beltway press made a huge spectacle out of how the "long-simmering" Obama-Warren "feud" had turned "personal." And there were lots of suggestions that the president, in his anger toward Warren, simply let his emotions get the best of him – that he let slip impolitic and perhaps sexist words] in his attacks on Warren, whom he described as "absolutely wrong" and "a politician like everyone else." Reuters, taking the cheese all the way with this "it just got personal" storyline that people on both sides of the Warren-Obama spat have been pimping to us reporters all week, quoted observers who put it like this:

"The president miscalculated in making this about Elizabeth Warren, that backfired badly. It only served to raise awareness of the issue and drive people away from his position," said Chris Kofinis, a Democratic strategist who has worked with labor unions opposed to the pact.

"It never makes sense to make these kinds of issues personal," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/13/us-usa-trade-obama-idUSKBN0NY2QQ20150513

Politicians do get angry. They even sometimes get angry in public. They are, after all, human, in some cases anyway. But politicians mostly only take their masks off when cornered: stuck in a televised argument with an expert irritant, called to speak in a legislative chamber just as that nagging case of intermittent explosive disorder kicks in, surprised by a ropeline question on the campaign trail, etc. But if you think that Barack Obama, one of the coolest cucumbers ever to occupy the White House, sat down for a scheduled interview in front of a professional softballer like ex-Times and current Yahoo pundit Matt Bai – a setup that's the presidential media equivalent of a spa treatment – and just suddenly "lost it" in a discussion about the TPP, you've been had. Almost without a doubt, Obama's remarks were carefully scripted. And it's likely all of these "whispers" suddenly circulating on the Hill about a percolating genuine personal feud between Obama and Warren also came from a focus-group-aided strategy meeting somewhere. Even Bai approvingly described Obama's move as an effort to triangulate the "professional left." These tactics make a lot of sense politically, and within the Beltway, chiding the "unrealistic" progressives of the Warren ilk is considered almost a rite of passage for politicians on the blue side who want to prove they're "serious about governing."

Triangulating – beating up on the ideologues within your own party in order to shore up your centrist cred and reassure your money sources – is an especially brilliant solution for Democrats targeting national office. Those politicians need virtual monopolies on union and minority votes, but also need just enough centrists and white southerners to stay viable. To keep those latter votes, you need to make a few very conspicuous moves from time to time.

~snip~

That's surely what happened here with the TPP, a monster deal with the potential to reshape not just our trade profile but our domestic financial regulatory structure. Along with a Democratic Party that would love one last chance to prove itself to Wall Street heading into 2016, Obama badly wants this deal passed, perhaps as a way to steer his legacy in a more bipartisan direction before he rides off into the sunset. So he picked just the right moment and just the right words to goad the press into painting him as someone who's just so angry at Elizabeth Warren's failure to understand how the real world looks from behind the Oval Office desk, he just couldn't keep his feelings reined in. He tried to retain his usual Björn Borglike exterior, but the oven-mitt questioning of Matt Bai just beat it out of him! Backing up for a moment: if there's one thing that a generation of free trade agreements has taught us, it's that it's a mistake to read too much into the fine print of any of these deals. With both the WTO and the Multilateral Agreement on Investment (MAI), there were all sorts of horror stories that were circulated about ordinary Americans ending up surrendering their sovereignty to corporate-friendly secret tribunals in Switzerland and other cabals. That hasn't exactly happened. But what certainly has happened is that we've racked up enormous trade deficits with the countries that are signatories to our free trade deals. No matter how you slice it, these deals reduce the percentage of American exports while accelerating imports from countries where workers not only often have crappy workplace protections (if they have any at all), but sometimes have reduced political freedoms as well.


~snip~

That part of it – the part where Wall Street hasn't sucked enough of the world dry yet and so wants this deal too, knowing the White House is willing to oblige – that isn't the really bad part. The part that's really irritating is that the same politicians who whine every chance they get about being unfairly painted as Marxists on Fox and Clear Channel are now cleverly using the animus generated by those news outlets against the Elizabeth Warrens of the world as shortcuts to political gain. Both the Clintons and Obama, remember, have singled out Fox and the media part of the "vast right-wing conspiracy" as warts on the face of America. The Obama White House has even called Fox "a wing of the Republican Party," and "not really a news station." But ask yourself this: how much triangulating kick would Obama really get out of piling on Elizabeth Warren if she wasn't right-wing America's current favorite Trojan-Horse Trotsky? If she wasn't pitched as being so "left" that Bill O'Reilly said she would make Obama look like "Reagan" in comparison? The reality is, as much as the mainstream Democratic Party whines about Fox and its cohorts, they constantly use all the negative energy of the conservative media as free marketing. Instead of standing in true partnership with unions and working people and employing a strategy of forcing the rest of the world to democratize and grant workers real rights in exchange for access to American consumers, they've done the opposite – beating up on the captured labor demographic as a way to reassure big business. Again, this goes back to Clinton, Al From, Dick Morris, the DLC days. Third Way Dems first dared American workers to try to get a better deal with Republicans. Then, once they established that they could safely take minorities and labor for granted, they used right-wing caricatures of welfare moms or rappers to score points with the political middle.

It's clever, and it sure as hell works as a way to win elections. It just seems like doing the right thing and standing up for actual people would work just as well.




cont'

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-democratic-party-would-triangulate-its-own-mother-20150514

[MohRokTah]

1. I saw the title to this article in the title of a DU post yesterday.

I didn't click on the OP, so I certainly never clicked on the article.

I knew it was Matt Taibbi without even looking.

[daleanime]

2. Which means you agreed with it....

disagreed with it, or split the difference?

[FlatBaroque]

3. it means poster

Has no more capacity for cognitive dissonance

[daleanime]

9. Because he choose to post the article?

[blue neen]

4. Yes, I saw it posted a couple of times yesterday, also.

It wasn't just as OP's; it was posted within threads, too.

[stevenleser]

17. Yep, Taibbi is a master at crafting stories he knows a certain segment wants to hear.

There was an excellent account by someone here who was at a campaign meeting for I think it was Kerry supporters who witnessed a situation that Taibbi then completely misconstrued in an article. I could tell that kind of stuff was going on in his articles before someone confirmed it via a first hand account.

Taibbi's articles are all slanted in a certain direction.

[A Simple Game]

19. Yes, sadly Taibbi's articles are slanted in a certain direction. The sad part is they

are slanted towards the truth.

This part,

Again, this goes back to Clinton, Al From, Dick Morris, the DLC days. Third Way Dems first dared American workers to try to get a better deal with Republicans. Then, once they established that they could safely take minorities and labor for granted, they used right-wing caricatures of welfare moms or rappers to score points with the political middle

and this part,

It's clever, and it sure as hell works as a way to win elections. It just seems like doing the right thing and standing up for actual people would work just as well.

must have really hurt.


Why does a current Chicago mayor come to mind? You are known by the company you keep and the people you defend.

[stevenleser]

20. No, they are not slanted towards the truth. All you need to know about him is found

by analyzing the kind of journalist he was at the eXile.

He has a narrative and agenda and twists facts to fit that agenda. His agenda drives the reporting, not the facts.

[A Simple Game]

23. For you there is only one problem with his agenda, it doesn't fit yours. n/t

[FlatBaroque]

25. perfect reply

[Segami]

31. +2

[stevenleser]

26. No, the reverse. The only reason you aren't analyzing his writing is it perfectly dovetails with

your agenda.

Because of that you don't care whether it is factual or not.

[One of the 99]

27. Perfect reply! nt

[Bobbie Jo]

36. +2

[A Simple Game]

32. Well to be honest my second excerpt is subjective, but I challenge you to

show me where the first excerpt isn't factual. You certainly can't be trying to say that the Clintons and President Obama don't use Triangulation. The Clintons actually bragged about it. I'm not sure if President Obama has mentioned using it but he has admitted to having moderate Republican principles.

The "fact" is that the liberals and their beliefs are always proven to be right in the long run, something those of you on the conservative side find hard to admit.

[stevenleser]

62. I'll do a search and find that post by the DUer that was at an event he completely mischaracterized.

Might take me a few days, but I will find it.

[A Simple Game]

65. Please hurry, I plan to hold my breath until

you find a post by someone that may have been at an event where someone may have mischaracterized something about someone else.

Are you sure it wasn't your uncle's, neighbor's, cousin's, friend's, ex wife's, mother, that you heard it from?

[stevenleser]

66. Actually, there are plenty of them. No need to hold your breath

Smear of Obama with mistakes pointed out
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x54049

More half truths and non-truths about folks here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=54049&mesg_id=54106

And more:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=790084

And here is another spot on analysis;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022141335

And Taibbi's fabricated quotes about Wes Clark:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=54049&mesg_id=54107

[A Simple Game]

70. Wow, you even went back to DU2 for your links to posts with links.

I was about to call you ProsSense but then you even had a link to a post by ProSense, talk about someone with a bias. And that was your newest link and was from Sun Jan 6, 2013, almost 2 1/2 years old, come on you can do better.

You even went back as far as Fri Nov-28-03 for one link. The rest are from '09. Honestly how can anyone take you seriously, I know I can't?

Please don't waste anymore of my time.

[stevenleser]

71. And of course when proof is provided, you throw out ad-hominems and then beg out of the

discussion.

Sorry to have to tell you the truth about your "hero". I'm even more sorry you can't handle that truth.

[A Simple Game]

74. All that work and you still leave my challenge unanswered.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... won't get fooled again. Hey, maybe Bush did say it the right way, save yourself any more work, we are done with this conversation.

[stevenleser]

75. Oh I've answered your challenges and then some. The guy can't be trusted to tell the truth.

I've proved that.

[A Simple Game]

78. It appears you not only don't read the articles you link to,

you don't read the posts you respond to either. All of you blue blather links had nothing to do with what I challenged you with. Go back and read the post, probably for what will be the first time.

This is it, I'm serious this time, quit wasting my time.

[stevenleser]

80. Oh I read them, as did the original DUers who posted them. Nice try. nt

[A Simple Game]

85. Yet my challenge is still unanswered, again.

I mean it this time, no more Mr. nice guy, stop wasting my time. Answer my challenge or stop replying to my posts.

I'm serious.

As for the challenge I wouldn't be surprised if you forgot what it was, honestly I had to go back and look myself, so don't be afraid to admit you forgot, if you ever read it to begin with.

One more time, the first excerpt:

Again, this goes back to Clinton, Al From, Dick Morris, the DLC days. Third Way Dems first dared American workers to try to get a better deal with Republicans. Then, once they established that they could safely take minorities and labor for granted, they used right-wing caricatures of welfare moms or rappers to score points with the political middle

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to prove this isn't factual.

Again this is my last post, someone will start accusing us of hijacking the tread if you don't answer my challenge this time. This is your last chance.

[merrily]

103. Your point was about the truth of the first excerpt.

The goalpost somehow got moved to the opinion of some DUers about another story entirely.

[JDPriestly]

90. From your first article

"Taibbi also ridicules a major early address by Obama on the economy, picking on one sentence: "Credit is the lifeblood of the economy," he declared, pledging "the full force of the federal government to ensure that the major banks that Americans depend on have enough confidence and enough money." To Taibbi, this means that Obama was simply going to encourage Americans to start binge borrowing again, and maintain the Bush status quo "of keeping a few megafirms rich at the expense of everyone else."

Obama's administration and the Fed have tried to keep Americans borrowing. Interest rates are incredibly low for home-buyers. The bail-out of the banks that did not bail out homeowners was directly intended to set off and has set off in my area of Los Angeles, a huge spree of buying and selling homes -- on credit which means big gains not only for banks but for title insurance companies, insurance companies, and the 1% who own all those companies.

Good luck to the people who think they will be able to pay off their houses once the unemployment crisis that TPP is likely to set off begins. Good luck to any young person in America who has invested in a college degree and thinks that will guarantee a job 20 years from now in a "free" trade economy.

Taibbi is a highly intelligent person. His world view is right on. I realize that it is painful to face the truth, but in the end, it pays off. Taibbi is a prophet in our time.

[stevenleser]

69. And here is more

http://prospect.org/article/errors-matt-taibbi

[A Simple Game]

72. Do you even pay attention to what you link to or are you just going for volume?

The Errors of Matt Taibbi.

TIM FERNHOLZ DECEMBER 11, 2009

Again, please stop wasting my time.

[stevenleser]

73. So you are acknowledging he lied up a storm in 2003, 2004 and 2009 but think he suddenly stopped

for some reason? Even though his articles sound the same?

[A Simple Game]

76. I acknowledged no such thing and you know it.

His articles sound the same? He was writing about President Obama and Senator Warren in 2003 and if he did would anyone have know who he was talking about? Again do you even read the articles you link to?

But thanks are in order, I'm still laughing about your link to ProSense, that was really over the top funny.

[stevenleser]

79. Its fair to say you did acknowledge it & It's the same generalized sneer at and smear of Democrats.

Your only objections to my evidence that Taibbi lies is that the articles were from 2003, 2004 and 2009. You didn't attempt to refute the fact that he was proven to have lied.

[Historic NY]

101. Warren was nothng in 03....& Obama didn't come onto the scene until 04....

then again some journalists like to hear what they write...right or wrong.

[JDPriestly]

89. Try a Google search.

[turbinetree]

39. Lets really

think of what you are saying------------agenda-----------

Matt Tiabbi has an agenda, he has a slant for his agenda.

Joseph Stiglitz, has an agenda about this TPP and it is good to know that this deal is bad.

McConnell brought forth HR.1314 for a vote-----he never asked for any amendments just a vote for cloture.
If, this so called majority leader did not have an agenda he could asked for amendments prior to the bill-----------like, getting one, so that the public could get to read and hear the bill for debate---------simple-------didn't happen.

When we the public get a re-vote of 65-33 to move forward----------why wasn't there a cloture vote to ask and give the public reading of this bill before this re-vote----------its a right wing agenda for the corporatists.

We are watching this country, again, have its economic resources being outsourced to whoever makes the most rules for there oligarch benefit, to make the most money in there oligarch benefit, and to have the most power by a system that is corrupt in there oligarch benefit.

I am getting a trade deal that is being done in secret and it is being forced down our throat by a right wing agenda (if this was a left wing agenda it would be a lot different), with corporatist in power after the fact, not before, but after------why?
Its a simple question ------------why?
MY answer it is for greed, its not for country to country to have a fair trading system----------really, there never has been one throughout mankind------------never.

I get to have the chance mind you, during the next four months to read this supposed good deal, when some right wing corporatist on the floor of congress tries to get an amendment passed by some staff member that is a lobbyists from the same oligarchs that wrote the trade deal---------what is wrong with this picture-----------its very wrong.

Which, by the way can't be changed for over six years, its like three card Monte or the shell game with the ball.

It, gets some amendment after the facts has been presented, that is a fact.
And when you have amendments in a trade deal, it makes you miss another section of the deal----------that is a fact.
This is why this deal is factually flawed.

And when I do get "some" information it is bent towards that right wing agenda, to basically under cut my principle, the core value of the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights of -----the WE the People------- to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness---and when the game is rigged-its rigged.

An agenda, that is telling me / you and everyone else in the world that it is not good, it is good for the top 10% of the world to have there life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but not for the smucks------------that's the agenda, and I think in my rant and opinion that is what Taibbi is saying in his triangulation

[AlbertCat]

86. Because of that you don't care whether it is factual or not.

A 100% subjective statement that fits your agenda....

It is up to you to prove that Taibbi is twisting things to fit his "agenda"



.....which is....what? Getting more progressives elected?

[JDPriestly]

88. Precisely what is not actual about it?

Which specific facts are untrue?

Or is your assertion just a "nah-nee, nah-nee, your mother too," kind of childish retort?

Can you identify the facts or statements that are false, please?

[840high]

96. Oh yes! Good one.

[jwirr]

43. I totally agree. And I love the idea that it backfired. The unions and many of us were very angry

that he would attack her specifically when there are a lot of others who are against the TPP. I felt that the attacks against our elected senators was an attack against us. Both of my senators voted against it also.

Triangulation is dishonest.

[newthinking]

97. Amazing the regressives that come out of the woodwork on the attack of those who speak out

We are in the most seriously fucked up period in the history of the world, having a better world snatched out of the hands of progressives working hard on moving forward; By EXACTLY what Tabbi is saying here:

TRIANGULATING, compromising away, greeding away, and generally trying to accelerate the methods that have brought the massive theft of the bulk of the incredible prosperity that progressive and scientific gains brought to the world through hard working average people.

All the while talking a good game at convincing everyone that we should not expect better for now; while they themselves gorge fat on the riches and experience none of the pain.

Until we are on the edge of collapse on multiple fronts and our Republic has been pissed away in 30 years under their leadership.

Fucking politically brainwashed regressives are so stuck in media politics that everything is just "rhetoric" or someone wanting the moon.

It is time to move past this dynamic and allow the energy for real change to build.

These critical voices are the same sort of dissidents and progressive voices as in the past. They have not changed.

[rhett o rick]

100. I think the Populist Movement will grow. Obama may get his job killing wish and

Clinton may get appointed president by Goldman-Sachs, but the peoples of the world are sick of the Oligarchs and will revolt. The regressives may have the Oligarchs on their side and the killer cops, but we will prevail.

[A Simple Game]

120. Triangulation does more harm than good. The conservatives have the right idea.

Their belief is that if I can't get what I want, I will at least not move backwards, they will dig their feet in and not budge one bit.

People that believe in triangulation say I don't think I can get what I want so I will give up something to gain something. Like little kids they will trade a dirty dime for a shiny penny and say see what I got! They always give up more than they gain, always moving to the opposing side. One could easily start to believe it's what they really want in the first place.

[sabrina 1]

28. Matt Taibbi is one of the most honest reporters in this country today. Naturally he is despised

by those who are not fond of the facts.

I didn't need to read his accounting of what has happened to the Dem Party since it was taken over by the Third Way/DLC, I doubt most Democrats need to do so.

Trashing the Left has been a hallmark of the Wall St Wing of the Dem Party. But thankfully voters are no long asleep regarding what has gone wrong with their party and have been throwing them out of Congress whenever they can, for the past few years.

It's ironic to watch them whine about the 'voters' being the reason for them losing us the House and Senate though.

Especially since voters are keeping those 'Professional Lefties' (yes they even have their own lingo for actual Democrats) as they did in two midterms so far while rejecting Third Way candidates.

It will take time, but voters will bring this party back to what it is supposed to be, the party of the people, rather than another party for Wall St.

Taibbi hits the nail on the head as usual.

[randys1]

53. He is Carlin without the funny. Tells the truth, the whole truth and little else.

I like Obama, I like the Democratic Party at this time given it is the only thing between us and actual annihilation.

But, I also am an adult who has paid attention for the past 30 yrs or so.

Matt tells the truth without consideration for party or personalities and so did Carlin.

Some folks cant handle that.

Michael Moore does too.

[sabrina 1]

58. Anyone who has been telling the truth over the past decade or so, instantly becomes a target

of both the Far Right and the Third Way which has sadly gained too much power within our party.

You won't see many smear campaigns against Corporate Dems.

But as you say, people like Michael Moore, Dennis Kucinich, Grayson, Taibbi and a long list of other truth tellers, are the targets of these smears.

And it's our fault too, we don't stand up strongly against these attacks.

I'll say one thing for the Right, they don't get intimidated into abandoning their own.

The 'left' seems to back away from some of their best once the attacks begin.

THAT is going to have to change, or there won't be many WILLING to stand up for us anymore.

[FlatBaroque]

116. Sabrina, I view you as a top tier thinker and poster, but

I wish to take exception with the statement that "And it's our fault too, we don't stand up strongly against these attacks. " That is simply not true. It is not our fault ... at all. What is happening today has been orchestrated. As we try to go about our daily lives, we do not have the resources to fight this invisible force that has been slowly eating away our lives. We are not to blame.

[sabrina 1]

119. You make a good point. And to be honest, many of us while watching these smear campaigns

at work over the years, didn't know how much money and time and resources are put into them until fairly recently.

The leaks of HB Gary's emails by Anonymous, pin pointed how it is done. Confirming suspicions that they were bought and paid for.

I guess I was thinking back to when eg, Michael Moore came under attack after the making of 'Sicko'.

Many on the 'left' joined in those attacks.

Fortunately when Whistle Blower, Wendell Potter came forward, and revealed what Moore had been saying, that millions were being spent to discredit him, he was vindicated.

So, how do the people respond to these tactics?

[FlatBaroque]

121. Therein lies the problem

We, the people, have been deliberately and systematically disenfranchised by major forces in politics. Once we were cut off from influencing the debate, we were essentially left defenseless and unable to respond to their tactics ( though I will differ in verbiage in that they are rely on strategy as well as tactics). Even on discussion boards such as this where we thought we could organize and form collective action plans, they sent in infiltrators to prevent that from succeeding. I'm afraid the "system" has been corrupted beyond rehabilitation, which is why there will be a bloody revolution, because that is the only remedy they have left for us. (That's why the domestic police force is now more like an occupying force).

In the example of Moore's great film Sicko, I recall the attacks on Moore, but I sort of recognize that the "left" has far more infiltrators than we might imagine.

Anyway, love your posts, and keep fighting for all of us. People like you are candles in the darkness.

[sabrina 1]

126. There is little we can do, but one thing we can do is to not allow good people to be smeared on

the forums we frequent. If you have read Cass Sunstein's 'advice' on how to 'handle' those who question official stories of major events in our history, then it makes it easier to recognize such tactics when they surface on internet forums.

He thought it would be a good idea to 'infiltrate' internet forums, and to call those questioning their government 'Conspiracy Theorists'.

So whenever I see that particular phrase aimed at anyone who even asks a question, I like to remind people of Sunstein's 'advice'.

Imo, you have to fight fire with fire. They call ME a CT, I refer them to Sunstein's little diatribe about the use of that phrase.

After they are called on it often enough, it causes them to do what they want US to do, stop using it, find some other way, which I'm sure they will.

The people need a strategy to fight these tactics. We are not organized so they do succeed in intimidating some people, not into acceptance, but into silence.

Maybe we the people need to Incorporate. 'We the People Inc.' Too big to fail, because right now we are failing.

Thank you very much for your kind words!

[FlatBaroque]

128. Yeah, Sunstein has been on my radar

since early in the Obama administration. Those Harvard boys really know how to destroy representative democracy. The only way I know of to fight the tactics espoused by Sunstein is to publicly identify them. Alas, DU does not allow that. You are a patient yet determined sort. I am only determined, lacking in patience. At DU the only way I can tolerate the site is by liberally using the ignore function (best feature of this site AFAIC). But while that makes it tolerable for me I cannot even see the worst of the worst, let alone fight their tactics. How does one debate a ROFL? (their most eloquent reply). I guess I choose to simply lend my support to all the people under the Third Way bus.

[FlatBaroque]

115. I think Matt is pretty funny

The vampire squid line is still one of the greatest sentences ever written. And it brings a smile to my face every time I read it.

[newthinking]

98. Notice that one truth teller after another has been been trashed in washington (and on this forum)

We have truly moved into new territory. Dissidents always look like a bunch of "whining losers" to the establishment.

You can now separate "the wheat from the chaff" by their attitude towards progressive truth tellers.

This is a very serious period and the last thing society needs is for dissidents to be further marginalized.

[hifiguy]

125. Indeed.

One of the few mainstream journalists I always trust. Matt tells it like it is.

[Dont call me Shirley]

40. Like nobody else's articles have a slant? Everything has a bias.

[stevenleser]

60. The difference is, he completely mischaracterizes events to fit that agenda.

We had DUers at an event that he wrote about and the account by Taibbi was complete bullshit. And again, it was at the expense of an establishment Democrat. He wrote the account he wanted to write regardless of the truth.

[Dont call me Shirley]

63. Depending on which "truth" one chooses to believe

[stevenleser]

64. I'll find the post. You will see, it is completely indefensible. nt

[sabrina 1]

102. You will of course post information on the event with details and post Taibbi's article so WE

can judge for ourselves whether or not his reporting was accurate.

Nothing personal, but your opinion is just that and means nothing without proof.

Taibbi's reporting on some of the major events over the past decade or so have proven to have been dead on accurate.

His stunningly detailed reporting on the Wall St crash, before, during and afterwards has no match in the world of journalism that I have seen.

I'll take his record of accurate reporting over the word of internet posters any day.

But if you want to provide something that makes it possible for people to judge your claim, feel free. Otherwise there is nothing in your comment of any substance, just 'we were there (where?) and he was there (where?) and we didn't agree with what he wrote about it (what?).

Meantime we have his body of work to judge him by.

[m-lekktor]

45. yeah he isn't a DEM party hack. nt

[stevenleser]

61. Nope. See my #45 nt

[kenfrequed]

93. So...

Basically you are just going to call Taibbi a liar and not have to actually prove that this story in Rolling Stone about strategic triangulation has no basis in fact?

Dear gods, I lived through the 80's and 90's and was cognizant of the spin and politicking and left-bashing that was going on. I suppose next you will tell me not to believe my lying eyes. Please stop pretending the people you disagree with are children and try to at least treat honestly with us.

I remember the way the words of Sister Soulja were intentionally decontextualized so that some rather moderate democrats could score points for seeming tough on crime.

I remember Clinton and the then DLC democrats talking about "The end of welfare as we know it" and embracing right wing nonsense like "the era of big government is over."

I recall the embracing of trade deals that gutted labor and environmental concerns. Of telecom and banking deregulation that the left warned about again and again.

I also have recently watched Clinton's protege Rahm Emmanuel savage the Chicago teachers unions in an effort to score points.



Please stop these ridiculous dismissals.

[99Forever]

99. I can understand why you would resent Matt Taibbi.

He's an actual journalist.

[FlatBaroque]

117. lolll

[sendero]

5. It's clever...

.....It's clever, and it sure as hell works as a way to win elections. It just seems like doing the right thing and standing up for actual people would work just as well.

But its useful life is coming to an end.

[merrily]

104. Based on Republican wins at the polls

(federal, state and local) during the last several years, I certainly question whether "it sure as hell works as a way to win elections." I even question whether winning elections was actually the purpose of going right. Winning elections did not require joining the Republicans in making "liberal" a dirty word--then making a synonym for all Democrats. Then again, I've grown cynical.

It just seems like doing the right thing and standing up for actual people would work just as well.

Not just as well. Much better, assuming the correct framing--which Hillary is trying hard to get just right--and delivery, which is the piece that too often goes missing once the votes have been counted.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/12777036



FDR had coattails so long they lasted forty years, some say longer. New Democrats, not so much. Now, Republicans hold more offices than any time since 1928.

[FlatBaroque]

6. spot on as usual by Taibbi

This has been a prossionally produced drama. My only qestion is whether Warren was also acting.

[HereSince1628]

7. Interesting application of triangulation

but I suppose if dem politicians join the republicans in attacking progressives on the left it really is a form of 'me too politics'.

The notion behind the term triangulation was that it creates a third way which is between two positions and philosophically above/superior to both.

In other words it is both a behavior of taking a middle position and a valuing of centrist positions free of engagement in the dirty work of the tug-of-war of war inherent in struggles defined by two-party dialectics.

[djean111]

11. Or, it cuts the baby in half.

Dems don't want to cut Social Security (well, most "Dems&quot

GOP wants to get rid of Social Security.

Triangulation - cut Social Security. Which, of course, is not even necessary, and, of course, this particular farce will be replayed, with varying results, until the GOP has gotten what it wanted in the first place.

Triangulation always points to the right.

[HereSince1628]

14. triangulation has traditionally pointed right because it's been used on more conservative opponents.

The 'me too' quality of it's use in campaigns tends to cut the value of the gap between opponents created by the popularity of any position. If by baby you mean that gap I agree.

IMO it's a tool that isn't limited by policy but whose utility is defined by popularity.

Using the language of it's own practitioners, one could say it's a 'practical' solution (to having been on the wrong/less valuable side of popular opinion).

Having intra-nicene abuse labeled as triangulation is uncommon as the triangulator must encamp within reach of an opponents position, and the only other opponents to progressives are republicans, but over the years the acolyte Rahm Emmanuel really opened the door for abusing people who don't share his elite view of goodness.

on edit: what we have isn't really an attempt to gain value by saying 'me too' but simply ad hominem attacks on other dems. Traditionally triangulation isn't a term used to describe that.

[kenfrequed]

92. The real problem is how strategically stupid it is

It is like Xeno's paradox or whatever. Everytime a third way democrat pushes halfway to the right wing on an economic issue the crazy lunatic conservatives take another step to the right and/or call the democrat a communist. Meanwhile corporate America has a money-gasm. Then the Third way Dem gets their checks from Goldman and Sacs and takes another step toward the economic right. The republican still calls them a communist.

It doesn't matter how much we "triangulate" act "moderate" or claim to be "fiscally conservative." We are abandoning our base every time we do this and giving working people less of a reason to show up and pull the damned lever.

[HereSince1628]

94. Yes, but that's sort'a the problem of relying on a tactic rather than a strategy..

Yet, triangulation as the word was originally introduced in politics -only- works with something that's popular. And the triangulator moves from a less popular to a more popular position.

With the rightwing going further and further right, they're reaching the limits of their popularity. The popularity of dems moving right is already feeling the strain.

The limits of the phenomenon you describe are reaching their breaking point. The curious thing is that I really thought the introduction of the tea-party into republican politics would kill the GOP first. But it seems that the Third Way, as revealed in Obama's statements and the Senates vote to go forward with TPA, really wants to cut the remaining fetters to the Progressive Left.

It may be time for a new party.

[kenfrequed]

106. Oh gods, Exactly!

I had been saying something like that for awhile now. That is exactly what triangulation is! A temporary tactic to try to soften up or grasp for the center. The problem is that when you do it full time there usually isn't any middle left to cling for and you abandon the tatters of your base to the wind while foolishly assuming the people that pound pavement, knock on doors, and make the get out the vote phone calls are going to stay loyal.

As much as I despise the right wing lunatic fringe, their party doesn't take them for granted.

As far as a new party goes I think there is a stanza from "Solidarity forever" that I have been thinking about for awhile now:

"In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold,
Greater than the might of armies, multiplied a thousand-fold.
We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old
For the union makes us strong."

I think we would do better to takeover the Democratic party and make it ours after we kick out the banksters and bullshit artists. They can go create their new party and simply name it after their bullshit and call it "third way."

[HereSince1628]

109. I don't think they are going anywhere.

And by they I mean the right side of the democratic base.

[Enthusiast]

8. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[Duppers]

10. K & R

[Octafish]

12. So much Triangulated I got to thinking FDR wrote NAFTA

Triangulation is why the Democratic leadership is off in a world inhabited by Republicans while the Democratic Party is off in a world inhabited by the 99-percent.

Thank you for another excellent article and thread, Segami!

[rbnyc]

47. +1 nt

[Babel_17]

13. Not exactly news but worth keeping fresh in the publics minds (K&R) (nt)

[Ed Suspicious]

15. This guy, Taibbi is a national treasure.

[rbnyc]

48. +1000

I have really hard time understanding how any liberal could have a problem with him.

[randys1]

56. Agreed, and we can admire and support Obama AND simultaneously acknowledge he is

a cog, a significant one albeit, in the capitalism Wall street wheel.

Is cog the right word? I forget

Either George Carlin was right when he said "These people dont care about you" or he wasnt.

I say he was, and I include ALL politicians in that which means Bernie and Elizabeth too, they are far less susceptible to the corruption at this time, but they are human.

Nobody can show me a single MOTIVE for Matt to lie, and if he is lying or shading the truth now, then that means all his stuff is lies and smoke, and we know that aint true.

[rbnyc]

77. I know I am responsible for much of my disappointment in Obama...

...because I believed in him so much. I know that you can't become President in America today without selling out, yet I believed -out of desperation, and lax examination - that Obama was a populist determined to serve the people, and that he would lead a change in how things are done.

Watching him allow the opposition to control the terms of the debate in reforming health care and calling the outcome a victory was as painful as listening to Hillary Clinton give her speech before her vote on Iraq.

His handling of the TPP is just so disgusting. But what did I expect? You pay for that office with a chunk of your humanity.

Yet, I believe that Bernie Sanders is an honest man with a mission to serve the people, and I especially believe when he says that this election is not about him, it's about us. And I believe in our power to lead a change in how things are done.

It's kind of an embarrassing quality, to keep believing. But I don't know how else to go on.

[randys1]

81. He knew he couldnt get public option in more ways than one.

So he did what he knew he could do.

Hillary could get it, if she wanted.

Bernie will get it, if elected.

I will support Bernie up until the day he is elected or drops out, I will then rabidly support whoever the democratic candidate is.

[rbnyc]

82. believe or not

..me too.

[KittyWampus]

16. About Triangulation- if you are opposing a strong force, the only way to move forward

is "triangulation". Like in sailing, if you want to move forward into an opposing wind, you have to tack into the wind.

This is an absolute. It's physics.

The Republicans have overwhelming amounts of money and media.

There may be a few rare occasions where the Left will have the wind at its back.

The problem isn't Triangulation. It's when the Leadership loses its moral compass.

[HereSince1628]

91. But, of course rhetoric isn't physics

The logic of physics is appealing but it's important to remember that popular positions actually generate the wind that fills their sails.

[merrily]

105. Physics, arithmetic.

Interesting how the center right characterizes its losing strategies.

Puzzling how the smaller and allegedly dumber party outmaneuvers New Democrats so often.

[corkhead]

18. No matter what the President does, he will never get the Republicans to love him.

?w=611

[Geronimoe]

21. Welcome to Detroit

We need look no further than Obama's bailout of the auto industry for a preview of what TPP will do. Obama lost his soft shoes. Union wages cut in half, almost all jobs moved off-shore. Pensions stolen. Investors made whole and rewarded. City goes bankrupt and people can not afford municipal water, while they sit on the edge of the greatest body of industrial polluted water, the Great Lakes.

It is unlikely Obama will ever visit Detroit, Camden, or venture very far from the financial center of any US city. A few blocks from the center of any city is real America with failing infrastructure, a nation unable to compete with third world standards of living.

Obama's fight with Warren, lacked substance. No revelations of what is in the deal. Perhaps Obama had to swear not to reveal the details before he could see it. Trust me is not a valid argument given Obama track record.

[George II]

22. I don't get it - Obama gets bashed for criticizing Warren, but Warren skates for criticizing Obama??

[Doctor_J]

29. Or, Obama gets bashed for siding with the billionaires and transnationals, and Warren "skates"

for siding with American workers.

Imagine that!

the president decided his first day in the WH to preside on behalf of the rich. For this he has been consistently criticized. That was his choice. His reward is adoption into the Bush Crime Family and a lifetime of riches - none of his descendants will ever have to work again. The price he pays is to be forever known as the president who brought down the Dem party by selling out labor, teachers, environmentalists, other groups who used to be dependable (D) constituencies, and of course all of the hopeful young people who voted him into office.

[magical thyme]

30. Obama called Warren "flat out wrong." So *exactly* what did she get wrong?

'Splain it to me like I'm 8 years old. "Trust me" isn't an explanation.

And where did Warren criticize Obama, because I must have missed that.

She has criticized the ISDS chapter of TPP, in detail, and the secrecy around TPP.

So exactly what did she get wrong about that chapter? How about the secret deal that congresspeople could only see by appointment without an assistant, without taking notes, and faced jail if they talked about it, until Warren and others complained about loudly about the restrictions.

[FlatBaroque]

34. It's true

You don't get it.

[jwirr]

49. Up until he started attacking her she was attacking the TPP. Or at least that is the way I see it.

[nonoxy9]

24. Truth, but of course it will get ignored in the media because

They have done such a great job of destroying Rolling Stone with the "rape story debacle", that now anything from RS will just be written off as junk reporting. What a sad state our nation has fallen to...

[Dont call me Shirley]

41. +1,000,000,000

I knew that story was a plant.

[RufusTFirefly]

108. And I'll raise you another million

That planted story has done its job.

[Dont call me Shirley]

123. Yup, it's trifecta

Delegitimize Rolling Stone Magazine
Make all rape victims unbelievable liars
End national conversation on rape

[MisterP]

68. RS destroyed itself with that one: everyone knows it's structured like HuffPo so the

columnists have little to do with one another

[Doctor_J]

33. This is bad politics as well as bad governance, as shown by the 2009 congressional profile compared

to the current one. The party apparatchik has managed to play on the personality cult, giving us the brilliant, energetic, handsome, affable black man in 2008 and the brilliant, experienced woman for 2016. And we get "D" presidents to sign off on a republican agenda. Yippee.

[marmar]

35. Sad but true.

[whereisjustice]

37. Taibbi is back on the Obama apologist's official list of poopy heads.

[whereisjustice]

38. Democratic Party would hire some child labor in Vietnam to triangulate its own mother...

Fixed that.

[Dont call me Shirley]

42. It's gonna be Democrats who destroy The New Deal

[tennstar]

46. TPP

An interesting tidbit.
I had a little protest at my reps office in Wa. State. We got about 25 people to show up.
What was really interesting was after telling Heck what they felt about TPP they all started telling him what they thought of the Democratic Party it was pretty stunning. I actually think they were as surprised as I was.
I was not surprised that people felt that way but, surprised that one after another people complained about the party and this republican president .

[bread_and_roses]

111. That is interesting

Getting 25 people to show up anywhere outside a major urban area - and even then sometimes - is an achievement.

[A Simple Game]

50. My God! I think you are right, it's so obvious when you see it in black and white.

Well that and listen to some of our Democratic representation when the speak.

[Dont call me Shirley]

51. The DLC and it's evil spawn 3rd Way.

[jwirr]

52. One of the most powerful tools FDR gave us to make sure we never had another Great Depression

Last edited Fri May 15, 2015, 02:43 PM - Edit history (1)

was Glass-Steagell. And it was a Democrat president who threw that away.

We don't need that anymore - we get along with the Rs now.

[Dont call me Shirley]

54. And Commodity Futures Modernization Act

Gambling with our necessities.

[jwirr]

55. Exactly.

[KoKo]

83. .....!

[randys1]

57. Here is why Feingold running for Senate is so important.

He is one of the few that can stop the dems from doing the unthinkable, which they are capable of doing

[Dont call me Shirley]

59. Yes and we need many more who will stand up for everyone equally.

[colsohlibgal]

44. Nice Distillation Matt

I'm shocked the apologists/operatives, not hard to spot, aren't defending Obama and triangulation.

Triangulation has led to the ruin of millions, who are now competing for jobs with foreigners who will work for peanuts. Ross Perot was crazy about a lot of things, but he nailed it in 1992 with his "giant sucking sound" statement. It happened to me. I did not need the job but for awhile I worked part time at Lexis Nexis. After a year they moved all this jobs to the Caribbean because they could pay those people 1.00 an hour or whatever. Multiply that by millions, most of whom were dependent on those jobs.

Somehow now the barometer of how well we're doing is how Wall Street is doing, not Main Street.

I'm hoping Bernie Sanders gets enough traction to get his message out, and he may. You would think some of the gilded set would think about a few things. One is this: Even an old Nazi sympathizer like Henry Ford came to realize he had to pay his workers enough to buy his cars. A rising tide does lift all boats.

Right now a large percentage either can't go to college or will rack up huge debts to do it. People are also bankrupted by our obscene for profit health care system. That won't happen in any other industrialized country but hey, we love our freedoms, freedoms to die both sick and broke. American Exceptionalism, oh yeah, but in a bad way.

[BeanMusical]

67. Kick and R.

[bvar22]

84. DURec!

Worth repeating:

"Instead of standing in true partnership with unions and working people and employing a strategy of forcing the rest of the world to democratize and grant workers real rights in exchange for access to American consumers, they've done the opposite – beating up on the captured labor demographic as a way to reassure big business

You should have seen the way the Obama White House beat down Organized LABOR
in the Arkansas Primary, 2010. Adding insult to injury, they then ridiculed LABOR for daring to support a Pro-LABOR candidate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024586209

[JDPriestly]

87. K&R. Obama is really letting America down with this TPP agreement.

And now he attacks Elizabeth Warren, probably the most popular Democrat alive today especially for young people.

He needs to pick up his playthings and then go sit in the corner and just be quiet for a while. Let the adults in the room who have lived through the good and bad times, that is the post-WWII and the post-Reagan period deal with reality. He can come back and play when he has his temper in control.

Really.

Taibbi knows how the world works. Sorry if that is so tough for a lot of DUers to accept. The TPP is not a good idea. We have enough trade agreements. Let's try to rebuild our industrial base so that we have something to sell to others before we get into another trade agreement. Let's make sure that our multinationals that operate in the US understand that we have a Constitution and that if they want to sell their products or do business in our country, they do it on our terms, not theirs.

[Bohunk68]

113. Thank you JDP

My post total is low, because it is folks like you and Sabrina 1 that say just what I feel and I don't need to say anything. I too, have lived through times when Democrats were Democrats and not the Turd Way crap. Elizabeth Warren has made it abundantly clear that she is NOT in the running, and why I strongly support Bernie. Even to the point where I have committed to a monthly donation for the rest of the year, at least. Even though, being on SS, it really hurts. I have also agreed to work in my area, right wing rural area that it is. I am being amazed at how many of my neighbors are hearing Bernie and agree with what he says. They are embarrassed by the Klown Kar Kandidates and hate Hillary with a passion. But, Bernie? Well, he comes from a neighboring state,so we already know a lot about him. They like what he says and agree with him. Would they vote for him in a GE? I have no doubt.

[Thespian2]

95. K & R !!!

I am waiting to see if the candidates will stand up for actual people...

Yep, I know Bernie does...anyone else?

[democrank]

107. Recommended

I`ll stick with the Democratic Wing of our party where folks are proud to stand up for economic and social justice. The DLCers and the Third Wayers have their own wing, which is quite popular once you add in all their like-minded friends across the aisle.

[ucrdem]

110. He actually uses the phrase "Third Way Dems"?

Note to Matt: DU is not the real world.

[m-lekktor]

112. A note to Ucrdem: third way didn't originate at DU.

perhaps you should get out more.

http://www.thirdway.org/

[ucrdem]

114. Sure, but I've never seen the phrase "Third Way Dems" in print

until now, assuming this made into the print version.

[randome]

118. Yes, Obama has shown plenty of evidence of his vindictive, short-tempered manner.

Taibbi can't help but see everything the way he wants to see it. Not an objective observer of the world at all and he apparently can't help himself.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Blue_Tires]

122. Taibbi ought to be a political strategist, since he knows so much...

[laserhaas]

124. If only Senator Warren would quash the "not behind the POTUS desk" argument

With your regular

"We can fix that"

-------------------- via her entry into the 2016 race.

[woo me with science]

127. kick