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marym625

(17,997 posts)
Fri May 15, 2015, 07:03 PM May 2015

Six months since the child, Tamir Rice, was murdered and the cop hasn't even been questioned

Mother Jones

When the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department made its first public comments on Tuesday about its ongoing investigation into the death last November of 12-year-old Tamir Rice,it provided few details. Nearly six months since Cleveland police fatally shot Rice at a community center park where he had been waving around a toy gun, questions are mounting as to why the investigation has taken so long, especially given explicit surveillance footage of the shooting and the troubling police record of the officer who pulled the trigger.

Mother Jones has learned that the two officers involved in the shooting—Timothy Loehmann, who fired the shots, and Frank Garmback, who drove the police car—still have not been interviewed by investigators from the sheriff's department. According to an official familiar with the case, investigators have made more than one attempt to interview Loehmann and Garmback since the Cleveland Police Department handed over the case in January. (Read more about why the sheriff's department took over the investigation here.)

A county official familiar with the case toldMother Jones that the criminal investigation is focused solely on Loehmann. Garmback, who pulled the police car to within a few feet of Rice right before Loehmann stepped out and shot Rice almost instantly, is currently not under criminal investigation by the sheriff's department, the official said.


Whether Garmback could also potentially face criminal charges is a complex question, says Seth Stoughton, a law professor at the University of South Carolina who studies policing. Stoughton says that he would expect prosecutors to at least consider the possibility, adding that both officers' actions in the wake of the shooting also raise stark ethical questions: "The Tamir Rice shooting was a use of horrible tactics," he says. "It was a ludicrous way to approach a scene where you've been told that there is a person with a gun who has been aiming it at bystanders. I would expect the officers would park at a safe distance and walk up, using cover and concealment, and try to initiate communication at a distance. That's the 'three Cs' of tactical response."

It remains unclear why, in the minutes after both Rice and his sister lay on the ground, the officers did not tend to Rice. According to Stoughton—who previously served as a police officer himself for five years—a fundamental principle of policing is that once a threat has been eliminated and a scene secured, an officer's first priority is to aid an injured person. "At that point, the officer and his medical kit might be the only thing between the suspect and death," he says. "It's not only an ethical requirement but almost certainly a departmental imperative to do what they can to save the life of the suspect. The failure to do that is really disturbing."


This is unconscionable. Do they think we'll just forget if they wait long enough?

That poor family has been through such hell. The city of Cleveland has been torturing this family for six months. Kill their 12 year old, attack their 14 year old, harass the mother then pummel the parents in the press. Let's not forget saying Tamir was responsible for his own death. This 12 year old playing in the park.

Disgusting

More at link

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/tamir-rice-investigation-cleveland-police
74 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Six months since the child, Tamir Rice, was murdered and the cop hasn't even been questioned (Original Post) marym625 May 2015 OP
k&r uppityperson May 2015 #1
Do cops have the right to remain silent? NotoriousRBG May 2015 #2
yes marym625 May 2015 #3
Could their attorney has already told the investigators that they cstanleytech May 2015 #25
nope marym625 May 2015 #27
So their attorney didnt preempt any questioning? Sounds like the DOJ might need cstanleytech May 2015 #29
correct. I don't know why they aren't already marym625 May 2015 #30
Investigators have made several attempts to question the officer, GGJohn May 2015 #43
I realize they are saying that marym625 May 2015 #48
Do you have any proof otherwise? GGJohn May 2015 #49
It isn't that they have evoked their 5th amendment rights marym625 May 2015 #52
That's false. GGJohn May 2015 #53
It is not false that a bench warrant could be obtained marym625 May 2015 #54
... GGJohn May 2015 #55
Oh my lord! marym625 May 2015 #56
Now we're back to where we started. GGJohn May 2015 #57
No, I said that it isn't that they have evoked their 5th amendment rights marym625 May 2015 #59
Prove it or stfu? GGJohn May 2015 #60
ain't that the pot.... marym625 May 2015 #62
You haven't proven that the investigators haven't seriously tried to question these officers. GGJohn May 2015 #64
Dear Dear Mary. You forgot where you live, didnt you. NoJusticeNoPeace May 2015 #58
They won't let us forget marym625 May 2015 #61
You had best not be calling me a racist. GGJohn May 2015 #63
Is that a threat? bravenak May 2015 #68
WTF is your problem? GGJohn May 2015 #69
The way you said 'you best not be' bravenak May 2015 #70
Didn't the kid point a gun at the cops? phil89 May 2015 #65
It was an airsoft gun, GGJohn May 2015 #66
No he did not. bravenak May 2015 #67
No, he had no time to point a gun at the cops. They shot him as they pulled to a stop. Here's video uppityperson May 2015 #71
Exactly so. GGJohn May 2015 #72
That was what I did also. They showed the gun, told the story, it sounded believable. Then the video uppityperson May 2015 #73
Honest question..... daleanime May 2015 #33
I hope that they were marym625 May 2015 #41
so shameful Fast Walker 52 May 2015 #4
I am outraged marym625 May 2015 #5
Stunning, amazing. NoJusticeNoPeace May 2015 #6
completely agree marym625 May 2015 #7
I've watched the video multiple times nilesobek May 2015 #8
I believe the official time is fewer than 2 seconds marym625 May 2015 #9
Outrageous! Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #10
I don't know what to do marym625 May 2015 #11
I would have little doubt that these officers have been questioned, informally at least. Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #12
This is absolutely outrageous marym625 May 2015 #13
It's a sickness, marym. These cops, their commanders, their system, all very very ill. Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #14
completely agree marym625 May 2015 #15
this is so wrong. irisblue May 2015 #16
Would seem that way marym625 May 2015 #18
They are hoping precisely that. With so many other examples of police brutality and murder, they tblue37 May 2015 #17
Do they think that the Rice family will forget? marym625 May 2015 #20
They hope that without all the publicity the family will be easier to manipulate into a tblue37 May 2015 #22
It's inhuman. it's inhumane marym625 May 2015 #23
+1. nt tblue37 May 2015 #24
I don't know why the sheriff is running the investigation ... JustABozoOnThisBus May 2015 #19
I don't understand any of it. truly marym625 May 2015 #21
I am furious that this child has so far not seen justice. MoonRiver May 2015 #26
Apparently marym625 May 2015 #28
Anything to protect the precious police, MoonRiver May 2015 #38
ain't that the truth! marym625 May 2015 #39
Justice Delayed isn't always a sign of incompetence. Octafish May 2015 #31
+1000 marym625 May 2015 #34
+1 daleanime May 2015 #35
+1 uponit7771 May 2015 #40
sickening. blackspade May 2015 #32
ain't it though! marym625 May 2015 #44
I'd imagine the two officers are getting their full salaries while off work. lexington filly May 2015 #36
Amen to that! marym625 May 2015 #37
I'm not surprised DashOneBravo May 2015 #42
I'm not sure exactly what you mean marym625 May 2015 #45
Yes ma'am DashOneBravo May 2015 #46
Yes marym625 May 2015 #50
Hopefully we will get an indictment mvd May 2015 #47
I hope so marym625 May 2015 #51
It should not surprise anyone that the cops have not been questioned. ManiacJoe May 2015 #74

cstanleytech

(26,245 posts)
25. Could their attorney has already told the investigators that they
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:45 PM
May 2015

are invoking their 5th amendment rights and that is why they havent been asked any?

marym625

(17,997 posts)
27. nope
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:49 PM
May 2015

It isn't that the cops aren't talking. They have not been questioned. It isn't that they are remaining silent, no one has asked them any questions to not answer.

cstanleytech

(26,245 posts)
29. So their attorney didnt preempt any questioning? Sounds like the DOJ might need
Fri May 15, 2015, 09:23 PM
May 2015

to get involved then.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
43. Investigators have made several attempts to question the officer,
Sat May 23, 2015, 11:00 PM
May 2015

but have been unable to.

Mother Jones has learned that the two officers involved in the shooting—Timothy Loehmann, who fired the shots, and Frank Garmback, who drove the police car—still have not been interviewed by investigators from the sheriff's department. According to an official familiar with the case, investigators have made more than one attempt to interview Loehmann and Garmback since the Cleveland Police Department handed over the case in January. (Read more about why the sheriff's department took over the investigation here.)

It's not that they haven't tried, it's probably that their union rep or attorney has refused to allow any questioning by the Sheriff's Office.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
48. I realize they are saying that
Sun May 24, 2015, 09:35 AM
May 2015

But I don't believe it. They could easily cause the officers to surrender themselves for questioning. If they were "thugs" they wanted to question you know damn well it would have happened by now.

I am not trying to sound argumentative, just saying what I believe. This whole area has serious issues with police brutality, excessive use of force and racism

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
49. Do you have any proof otherwise?
Sun May 24, 2015, 09:40 AM
May 2015

Cops have the same 5th Amen. rights as citizens, as long as their union rep or attorney refuses to allow those 2 to be questioned, then there's not much the investigator's can do.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
52. It isn't that they have evoked their 5th amendment rights
Sun May 24, 2015, 09:59 AM
May 2015

Hard to do that when you haven't been asked anything.

I think I owe you something about a constitutional right. That's all I remember. I couldn't find the post later and, unfortunately, my memory isn't what it used to be.

Or do I have the wrong person?

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
53. That's false.
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:04 AM
May 2015

They can invoke their 5A before being questioned, all their attorney's or union reps have to do is tell the investigators that their client's refuse to answer any questions and are invoking their 5A right.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
54. It is not false that a bench warrant could be obtained
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:31 AM
May 2015

And it is not false that it's difficult to believe someone would evoke 5th amendment rights when there haven't been any questions. But again, that is not what this is about.

I never said it was impossible to use the 5th amendment without being questioned. But it is unreasonable to believe someone would.

The idea that there is any serious attempt to question these police officers, and that they can just have their rep say, "nah, they are not feeling it and evoke their 5th amendment rights" and that is sufficient for a criminal investigation, is ridiculous

There has been no serious attempt to question them. They have not, according to any papers filed or questions asked of any department, been asked anything that would cause them to use the 5th amendment. And if they are not asked anything, even through an attorney or rep, to use the 5th amendment.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
55. ...
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:37 AM
May 2015
There has been no serious attempt to question them. They have not, according to any papers filed or questions asked of any department, been asked anything that would cause them to use the 5th amendment. And if they are not asked anything, even through an attorney or rep, to use the 5th amendment


And I'm guessing that you can provide proof of your claims?

It's very common for police officers to refuse to answer any questions concerning questionable shootings.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
56. Oh my lord!
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:42 AM
May 2015

You seriously want to just argue with me to argue with me

Please provide any proof to the contrary. Show me where they evoked the 5th amendment. Show me where any serious attempt to question them has been made. I can't prove a negative.

It's been well over six months and they have not been questioned. There's my proof. Your turn

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
57. Now we're back to where we started.
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:53 AM
May 2015
Mother Jones has learned that the two officers involved in the shooting—Timothy Loehmann, who fired the shots, and Frank Garmback, who drove the police car—still have not been interviewed by investigators from the sheriff's department. According to an official familiar with the case, investigators have made more than one attempt to interview Loehmann and Garmback since the Cleveland Police Department handed over the case in January. (Read more about why the sheriff's department took over the investigation here.)


You made the claim that these officers haven't invoked their 5A right, it's up to you to provide the proof of your claim.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
59. No, I said that it isn't that they have evoked their 5th amendment rights
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:02 AM
May 2015

It's that they aren't seriously attempting to question them.

You stated that there have been several attempts to question them. Where is the proof of that? "More than one" us hardly several.

I never said that they have not evoked their right. I said that isn't what this is about. I said nothing anywhere says they have. I said they are not seriously attempting to question them. I said that a bench warrant could be issued.

There is no question that there is no serious attempt to question these officers and there is no serious attempt to investigate the murder of this child.

What exactly is your problem?

You are the one that brought up the 5th amendment. Prove it or stfu.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
60. Prove it or stfu?
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:06 AM
May 2015

Again, provide the proof that the investigators haven't made any serious attempts to question these 2 officers.

Even if a bench warrant were issued, do you seriously believe that would negate their 5A?

What exactly is your problem?


My problem is that you are spewing statements without any proof of those statements.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
62. ain't that the pot....
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:09 AM
May 2015

Yeah, figured as much. I did prove my point. You, on the other hand, have done no such thing

Until you actually prove anything you spew, I am done with you

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
64. You haven't proven that the investigators haven't seriously tried to question these officers.
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:11 AM
May 2015

You made the claim, prove it with facts or links, should be really simple.

NoJusticeNoPeace

(5,018 posts)
58. Dear Dear Mary. You forgot where you live, didnt you.
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:58 AM
May 2015

This dead black child does not matter enough to make shit really happen as if he was the dead white child of a rich person, for instance'

Be assured if this was the dead white child of some rich person living there, much more pressure would be applied to everyone concerned to get interviews, indictments, grand juries, etc.

Dead black kids matter almost not at all in many areas of this rabidly racist society.

didnt you know that, dear?

I know you did, you just forgot.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
61. They won't let us forget
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:07 AM
May 2015

This brought me to tears. Thank you for the stark reality check.

I don't know why I respond to racist.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
63. You had best not be calling me a racist.
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:09 AM
May 2015

I've said that the Tamir Rice shooting is murder and the officers involved should be charged, but until they are convicted, in this country, there is a presumption of innocence, something you aren't willing to admit.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
68. Is that a threat?
Sun May 24, 2015, 06:47 PM
May 2015

"You had best not be calling me racist'
Is that a threat? Whatchoo gonna do if somebody calls you racist? I'd like to know just in case I ever use my first amendment right to call you racist. I hope that was not a threat. Makes me inclined to believe you might be. Real racist get angry and make threat when called out on their racism. You might wanna think about why somebody might call u that. It's the way you talk that makes you seem marginal.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
70. The way you said 'you best not be'
Sun May 24, 2015, 06:53 PM
May 2015

Is my problem. Nobody called you anything. It was you and your guilty conscience.
Oh, btw, that welcome to ignore thing cracks me up. Like you special.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
65. Didn't the kid point a gun at the cops?
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:13 AM
May 2015

what else was going to happen in that scenario?? The parents should have been questioned good lord.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
66. It was an airsoft gun,
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:15 AM
May 2015

the cop didn't even give the kid a chance to drop it, he exited the car and within less than 2 seconds, shot Tamir and then didn't even render aid, which may have saved the kid's life.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
67. No he did not.
Sun May 24, 2015, 06:44 PM
May 2015

The cop jumped out of the car and shot him. Less than 2 seconds after pulling up. He had no time to point the gun. Stop lying and go research before you go around talking bullshit.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
71. No, he had no time to point a gun at the cops. They shot him as they pulled to a stop. Here's video
Sun May 24, 2015, 06:54 PM
May 2015

He did not point a gun. They pulled up right next to him, putting the rookie who shot him at risk. IF there was a gun, that rookie might well be dead. Instead, he shot as he opened the door to get out. There was no time for Tamir to do anything. Then they did not do any first aid or even check him for minutes, until someone else came.

One would think the cops might assess the situation from a distance, and if they shot him at least check and see how badly he was injured once he was down. But no. Neither of those happened.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
72. Exactly so.
Sun May 24, 2015, 07:01 PM
May 2015

Up until I saw the video, I was willing to give the cops the benefit of the doubt, but once the video was released, all benefit of doubt vanished, AFAIC, that was an execution.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
73. That was what I did also. They showed the gun, told the story, it sounded believable. Then the video
Sun May 24, 2015, 07:11 PM
May 2015

was released and it became obvious what happened. Then they released the extended video, showing the blatant lack of disregard for the show 12 year old.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
5. I am outraged
Fri May 15, 2015, 07:18 PM
May 2015

I don't understand how the federal government hasn't stepped in at this point. Where's the DOJ?

This is insanity.

NoJusticeNoPeace

(5,018 posts)
6. Stunning, amazing.
Fri May 15, 2015, 07:26 PM
May 2015

BTW this is also why giving in to the BULLSHIT that shooting Michael Brown was justified, is pissing me off too

No, neither of these are justified.

Just because you cant prove these asshole cops werent in fear for their lives, which is the ONLY reason Darren Wilson didnt get indicted by the DOJ etc

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
8. I've watched the video multiple times
Fri May 15, 2015, 07:35 PM
May 2015

and from the looks of it, it happens within seconds, 2 or 3 seconds he gets out of the police car and kills this kid. I can only think he had that in mind when he was driving up, to shoot that kid. Outrageous.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
12. I would have little doubt that these officers have been questioned, informally at least.
Fri May 15, 2015, 07:54 PM
May 2015

These would need to be found and brought to the DOJ. It would take a brave soul to locate and turn these over.

tblue37

(65,227 posts)
17. They are hoping precisely that. With so many other examples of police brutality and murder, they
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:02 PM
May 2015

hope this one will get lost in the shuffle. If the cop(s) are acknowledged to have screwed up, the police department will have to deal with uncomfortable scrutiny, and any admission of fault will bolster the lawsuits that should be coming their way.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
20. Do they think that the Rice family will forget?
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:05 PM
May 2015

Hell, we won't forget. I hope every day that goes by they pay in another million dollars and 100 days in jail. For each person dragging this out

tblue37

(65,227 posts)
22. They hope that without all the publicity the family will be easier to manipulate into a
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:13 PM
May 2015

lousy settlement.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,325 posts)
19. I don't know why the sheriff is running the investigation ...
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:02 PM
May 2015

... this sort of thing should be handled by the Ohio State Police. Sheriff and city police might be too cozy.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
26. I am furious that this child has so far not seen justice.
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:49 PM
May 2015

Apparently cops can now gun down children playing with toy guns and face no consequences.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
28. Apparently
Fri May 15, 2015, 08:53 PM
May 2015

I am with you. My anger is deep. I can't fathom what his parents and sister are going through

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
31. Justice Delayed isn't always a sign of incompetence.
Fri May 15, 2015, 09:30 PM
May 2015

Sometimes it's a sign of corruption.

If so, may a LOT of Cleveland and Cuyahoga's finest end up losing their jobs and pensions and power trips.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
34. +1000
Fri May 15, 2015, 09:39 PM
May 2015

I suspect they are trying to get all their ducks in a row while torturing the family. The DoJ already found them to be racist. I am sure there is more going on.

I agree, and I would add their freedom. At least for a while. And the two murderers, for life

lexington filly

(239 posts)
36. I'd imagine the two officers are getting their full salaries while off work.
Fri May 15, 2015, 10:14 PM
May 2015

No motivation to talk monitarily or legally. And what's there to say or for anyone to hear when the significant facts are all on video? Little doubt the police are stalling counting on civilian passions cooling. Boy are they spittin' in the wind!

marym625

(17,997 posts)
37. Amen to that!
Fri May 15, 2015, 10:30 PM
May 2015

Spitting in the wind. Perfect

You know all these cops that have killed all these kids and haven't been charged and convicted, can make money off their crimes. Another despicable thing I am sure some will do

DashOneBravo

(2,679 posts)
42. I'm not surprised
Sat May 23, 2015, 10:53 PM
May 2015

IMO they are trying to stretch it out as long as possible.

Both of those guys deserve to be charged. Esp the driver who hot dogged and put a new guy in spitting distance.

DashOneBravo

(2,679 posts)
46. Yes ma'am
Sun May 24, 2015, 12:35 AM
May 2015

In most tactical situations "distance is your friend". The further away you are, the more options you have.

They just rolled up, jumped out and shot

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
74. It should not surprise anyone that the cops have not been questioned.
Sun May 24, 2015, 07:41 PM
May 2015

The cops have the option of exercising their 5th Amendment rights should any questioning be attempted, which they have most likely done already.

As cops they can be ordered to answer any questions. However, at that point all the testimony becomes coerced and not usable in court. Thus whenever possible, any investigation will take place without any testimony from the accused cops.

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