Abraham Lincoln "evolved" on the issue of slavery

[cali]

In 1860 he did not support ending slavery; he supported halting the spread of slavery.

JFK personally abhorred the apartheid system in the South but in the first two years of his presidency he refused to put a comprehensive civil rights bill in front of the Congress.

I can't take credit for these comparisons; I just heard Tom Ashbrook on On Point make them


I don't know what Lincoln believed at the time. Kennedy evidently believed that he'd endanger the rest of his legislative agenda and his re-election if he did more on civil rights.

Had President Obama said that Marriage equality shouldn't be left up to the states, he would have been right. He would also have handed the Presidency to Romney- and the makeup of the SCOTUS for decades- yes, decades- to come.

[loyalsister]

1. His statement was on his personal feelings- not policy

The policy under federal law is to not interfere- save DOMA, which he directed the DOJ to not enforce. The only way this legally changes at the federal level is with a SCOTUS judgement.

[bhikkhu]

2. That was my first thought

...and if you make a list of significant issues where someone in a position of responsibility "evolved" to rise above the prejudices of their upbringing and their culture, its a pretty darn short list.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

3. Tom Asbrook is wrong.

The fact that he hosts an On Point program which gives him an electronic speaking platform doesn't inherently make him right.

There are those who would like to denigrate or minimize the contributions of the two presidents who were primarily responsible for (1) actions that freed the slaves and (2) actions that resulted in the enactment of modern civil rights legislation. Tom Asbrook is not denigrating them as some have, but he is making an equivalency with a modern president.

On what factual basis can it be said that "In 1860 [Lincoln] did not support ending slavery"? Did not support? There were those in the North who believed that slavery would fall under its own weight. During his debates, Lincoln unquestionably and clearly opposed slavery. At best, it can be said that "In 1860 Lincoln did not openly support the ending of slavery with immediate violence and war with the South." It's true that Lincoln was not a firebrand John Brown, but that did not mean that "he did not support ending slavery."

On what factual basis can it be said that "in the first two years of [JFK's] presidency he refused to put a comprehensive civil rights bill in front of the Congress"? Refused to put ...? Refused to who? Did someone prepare and place a comprehensive civil rights bill in front of him which he then refused to put in front of Congress?

[cali]

5. uh, I never said he was right because he hosts a show.

And yes, he's right.

Initially, Lincoln expected to bring about the eventual extinction of slavery by stopping its further expansion into any U.S. territory, and by offering compensated emancipation (an offer accepted only by Washington, D.C) in his early presidency. Lincoln stood by the Republican Party platform in 1860, which stated that slavery should not be allowed to expand into any more territories. Lincoln believed that the extension of slavery in the South, Mid-west, and Western lands would inhibit "free labor on free soil". Lincoln was not an abolitionist; he did not call for the immediate end of slavery everywhere in the U.S. until the proposed 13th Amendment became part of his party platform for the 1864 election.[1]


And it's hardly news that JFK didn't do much on civil rights issues.

do some basic research.

[Bluerthanblue]

6. in the debates Lincoln made some troubling statements about slavery-

He DID evolve.

That evolution is a part of what made him the great leader he was.

"“I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people. And I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. … And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” – Abraham Lincoln in his fourth debate with Stephen Douglas in the campaign for the United States Senate on September 18th of 1858."

"I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862)

"Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860)

[AnotherMcIntosh]

7. The main theme of the debates was slavery. The different positions is what distinguished Lincoln

from Douglas. If a considerable portion of the voting public didn't want to see the end slavery, and if they didn't want to see slavery end as envisioned by Lincoln, they would have voted for Douglas.

I've stated:

At best, it can be said that "In 1860 Lincoln did not openly support the ending of slavery with immediate violence and war with the South." It's true that Lincoln was not a firebrand John Brown, but that did not mean that "he did not support ending slavery."

The material that you quoted is consistent with that.

[TlalocW]

4. My historical example of choice would be... Malcolm X

It's been 18 years since I've read his autobiography, but I seem to remember his talking about changing his racism toward white people after visiting Mecca and seeing Muslims of all colors and being welcomed. He was still skeptical of American Whites and still was for holding them responsible for wrongs done, but he no longer hated them as a group. I think that part of the book was punctuated about how he was recognized by a White guy at a stop light (they were both in cars), and the guy initiated a conversation with him about racial politics of the day, and Malcolm thoroughly enjoyed the talk and felt like he had a friend or ally in that man.

TlalocW