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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy 22 year old son on Bernie versus HRC
Now Bernie supporters don’t flip out. He would love to see a socialist as president. He would also love to see a woman as president. So he’s pretty damn happy that both are running.
A short background on my kid. He is very politically savvy for his age. I started taking him to meetings with Democrats and other liberal policy advocacy gatherings from the time he was about 9 years old. He would sit and do his homework, but he also absorbed a lot, and on top of that politics was a regular conversation at our house.
Once, he was at a meeting and someone asked if anyone else had anything to say. And he piped up. His comments were very well received. That led to him being asked, when he was 12, to give a short 5 minute speech at a Dem fundraiser attended by about 1000 people, including several senators, two governors, and a boatload of congress people. He got a standing ovation. He knows his politics.
He’s also a musician, and with that comes lots of friends. I think he has something like 4000 on Facebook, most of whom he has actually met. He is one of those people you would call a “connector.”
So he was visiting last night and I asked him what he thinks the vibe is on the candidates among young people he knows. He said no one cares about the attacks on HRC. That the attacks just makes her look more formidable. To him, they all blend in with the right wing attacks she has endured for decades. Whatever, is his view point.
I asked him if he thought Bernie could win. He said, no. Maybe 10% chance, if that. I asked him why not and his answer was surprising. At least to me. He said Bernie’s voice is grating, and every time he speaks he sounds like he is grandpa lecturing at you, and people his age just tune him out. He said he “doesn’t inspire my crowd.” He was clearly kind of bummed about that.
I think Bernie needs to work on the charisma thing a bit.
Like me, he would vote for either of them. But that is his take on things as they stand now.
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morningfog
(18,115 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I asked him if young people thought Bernie's age was an issue. He immediately said no, young people don't even think about the fact that someone his age might not have the necessary stamina for such a job. They can't conceive of, or don't really think about, someone not having the same energy they do as young people.
So it wasn't age that was an issue. He was very clear that it was that Bernie comes off as lecturing people.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)
Any excuse in the storm I guess.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's worse to insinuate than be frank.
Why would a son be disingenuous to his mother, with whom he has a good relationship?
HRC supporters have had to put up with comments from DUers about the quality of her voice, her appearance, her hair, her clothing, and her age--so no one else is allowed to take note of these qualities in any other candidate?
You most certainly don't have to agree with the conclusions of the young man if you don't like them, but the Go-To response should not be to question the veracity of the poster, especially when there doesn't appear to be any cause for so doing.
I'm sure my supposedly "fake" son would thank you too, but he is a musician so he is asleep because he works late into the night. LOL!
MADem
(135,425 posts)is corrosive to a discussion of the issues. I thought the inference was unfair and unkind.
I also think that "win-ability" is a factor in elections. I will vote for whichever candidate makes it through the primary gauntlet as I am sure you will, too.
During the primary, I support Clinton because she's a known quantity, I like much of what she says, I like her track record, her varied experiences in private practice, the legislative, and executive branches, I think she is prepared. and I think she has the greater chance of winning (by a factor of thousands, frankly). I think Senator Sanders is a nice guy, and if I ruled the world, I'd implement a lot of his ideas. However, I don't rule the world, and I'm aware enough to know that there are a lot of people who don't like the idea of tax money going to the sorts of things he, and I, might like.
Except the part about the primary. It's pretty much over before they get to WA state. So I don't have to make that hard choice, typically. But yes, I will vote for the eventual nominee. I just have to hope it isn't Jim Web, or Lincoln Chafee. I'd have to hold my nose with those two. But Bernie, HRC - either is a no brainer and easy vote for me.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Perhaps it's because he is a New Englander, and his conversion to the Bright Side wasn't as long a journey as it was for Webb. Also, Chaffee doesn't have the sexist baggage that Webb has, nor does he have the tumultuous private life of Webb (which is fodder-rich, frankly--his life reads like a bad soap opera). But, like you, given a choice between either declared candidate, it wouldn't be a hard vote at all.
but I have to hold my nose big time to vote for Hillary. I'm 74 years old and I want a President that doesn't full-on support wallstreet. I cannot imagine voting for Hillary. 
madokie
(51,076 posts)beings as how it's a hit piece on Sen Sanders by way of a proxy, 'her son'
You fail, sorry 
Nothing personal as most times we're in agreement on most all subject as far as I can see.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And I think the one who is failing here is you.
It is an opinion and it wasn't framed disrespectfully. If you disagree, fine, but it's a long way from a "hit piece."
A hit piece would say something like "Sanders used to go to Plato's Retreat with John Bolton." Or "Hillary Clinton is into whips and chains." Lies, damned lies, rumors, and innuendo. There's nothing in that post save an opinion, and it's one that many people share.
As I said elsewhere, they're both outside the optimal age for the office, and so was McCain, and so was Reagan. It's childish to pretend that MENTIONING it, or other characteristics of the candidates, in a polite way, is a "hit piece."
Are we going to prance around on tip-toes and pretend they're in their late thirties? They aren't. Neither one is terribly "warm," either. That's also a fact--is it a crime to mention it? Neither one has the voice of an angel. Clinton can be stern at times, as can Sanders. Both can display flashes of wit. Both have had their hair criticized.
Let's get real--people make decisions about candidates based as much on "feelings" as a laundry list of policy positions. To discard that process, and to pretend that any discussion of those personal traits is a "hit piece" is unrealistic. We can play a game that these discussions are off-limits, but these conversations will take place elsewhere, and forbidding them here--so long as they aren't rude or crude--means that the utility of the website is degraded. People will go elsewhere to talk, but they WILL talk.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I don't mis-type what I want to say. Yes a hit piece on Bernie Sanders through her son. Nothing more nothing less.
MADem
(135,425 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)I don't think Clinton supporters should have to put up with ageist and sexist criticisms either. That is very much my point.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Gotta give them credit though: after 14 years asleep, they've been pretty prolific with the posts! It's almost as if something happened recently...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)right when they started posting. Hostile and condescending right out of the gate.
Makes you wonder.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)You're trying too hard. 
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I said HRC is only 5 years younger. He said it's not the age, it's the tone.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)that goes the other way.
'You're young, you don't know what you're talking about.'
That doesn't persuade of anything other than wow, I might stay away from that person.
It's my future too.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)that candidate is not the problem. You are. Remember when Hillary was criticized for having a plump behind? It was very inappropriate. I can find plenty in Hillary's record to criticize, so I don't have to dwell on her derriere. The same goes for Bernie. His record and experience speak for himself.
Enough with the body criticisms.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)He would vote for him in a heartbeat. He just doesn't think he is not connecting with young people because he sounds more like a lecturer than an inspirational voice.
Let's face it, Obama had that gift, and that it what it takes to get people excited about a candidate. It is just human nature.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)If your son is a musician, he needs to learn that government is not a rock concert.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)... criticism here. So there is that. 
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)Unless you propose to lecture the American public as to the shallowness of their perspectives on candidates, you have to accept that age, race, sex, voice, hair style, clothes, hobbies, and any number of other factors may trump political positions when people actually vote.
Add to that: lecturing voters on the shallowness of their perspectives isn't likely to get you votes either.
MADem
(135,425 posts)voters. McCain was, too, and it didn't stop him from running. Same with Ray-gun. Trying to pretend that a factual observation is "criticism" is gaming what the kid said in order to create a point of dissent where there isn't one. His observations are his. He has a right to them. YOU don't have to agree with them, and that is fine.
And there's no "if" about it--her son IS a musician. She said so.
Given that the kid is aware of/interested in the political process, I'd say he's ten steps ahead of many of his peers. He doesn't "need to" learn a doggone thing. Talk about LECTURING!!! Where's that Iron E graphic?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)and their records when in elected office if you feel they fall short of what you want in your President. Appearances and age should have nothing to do with it. And if it's the only thing you can find that you don't like, it shows immaturity in thinking IMHO.
MADem
(135,425 posts)"inappropriate?" Life and the real world do not work that way.
Appearance does impact voters. Age sure as hell does too--that's why Raygun addressed it early with the "youth and inexperience" joke. His people may have been assholes, but they weren't stupid--they knew that was an elephant in the room and it needed to be gunned down early on.
It's not all about "policies." People are not robots. People are drawn to "likable" sorts, people who are fun, friendly, interesting, entertaining--people who can draw you into their world and make you feel like you're the most important person in the room. Bill Clinton had that special talent--it has served him well down the years. Appearance, too, is why Nixon did better on the radio than he did on TV when debating Kennedy. It had EVERYTHING to do with who thought he won or lost that debate. And who won the "I wanna have a beer with that guy" contest, even though the Dimson the damned son was an alcoholic--that had everything to do with personality, it had nothing to do with who was better on "policies."
I got some news for you, too--you're LECTURING. You are telling people how they are "supposed" to feel--and if they don't feel the way you demand, you've got an excoriating opinion of them, so there~!
Let me lecture right back at you--that shit doesn't work. People may shut up, and not tell you what they think to your face, but they'll go along and think what they want and vote how they want, and they will even consider those things that you don't think they should be "allowed" to consider. Further, people don't give a shit if you think they lack maturity in their thinking--see, they don't CARE about you. They just care about themselves, and their choices, and they want THEIR candidate to prevail. If you don't get your way after telling them how dumb and immature they are, that would make them happy.
That's just human nature.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)of the idiocy? Isn't it time for this nation to grow up? It's time to stop thinking like we are still in high school where the most popular were the handsomest and the prettiest with the best clothes become the in crowd and everyone else is out. People from other countries really laugh at us for being so gullible. I'm fed up with morons electing other morons who impact my life. If you are among the 1% you probably are okay with it, but with the violence and unrest we are witnessing since the beginning of this year, it's becoming apparent we have to change. The violence and unrest will continue to spread if we don't start making smart choices about who will govern us. If I'm lecturing then boo hoo. It's obviously needed.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Some things just aren't worth fighting about--and these truths, that people will
a) Be attracted to certain people on the basis of appearance or personality, or both
b) Not always put "policy" first and foremost in their decision-making process, indeed, they may consider things like
1. The "attractiveness" mentioned above, or
2. The ELECTABILITY of the candidates
as part and parcel of their decision - making process, are simple FACTS. Reagan was a master of propaganda (well, his people were), but that "youth and inexperience" joke wasn't propaganda--that was a brilliant method to not just defuse a negative, but turn it into a positive using a) personality and b) humor.
These are truths. They are self-evident. They are not admissions, nor are they confessions. This has nothing to do with high school, either--it's how the voting public works. That's probably something that a practical campaign manager wraps their head around early on. Negatives can be turned into 'neutrals' or even positives, but it takes something called 'spin' to make that happen. Spin is NOT propaganda--it's just putting a situation in a different light, so that people reacting to it have a fresh perspective. In the case of Reagan, the 'spin' was that we should not look at him as old, but instead, wise, knowledgeable, experienced. Those who didn't like him or believe that spin still had to acknowledge that was one helluva line--even Mondale laughed.
Here's another truth. Suggesting that I'm "among the one percent" and probably "OK with it" is a cheap shot. I have told you the truth, and you've given me hell for it. You can yell at me, you can make cheesy insinuations about my financial status in the world (HINT--if I were in fact a one percenter, I sure as fuck wouldn't spend my free time on DU...I'd be jetting around the world in my fancy private jet, having fun and do-gooding while at it). And what's that "It's obviously needed" snark about? Because I see things as they in fact are, and understand that they need to be mitigated, there's something wrong with ME?
I think of the two of us, any Democrat would prefer me managing their campaign over you--at least I see the potholes in the road and understand the need to swerve before we lose an axle.
The nation won't "grow up" because you scold them like naughty children and demand it. People want what they want, their priorities are not your priorities, and sometimes, their reasons won't align with yours. People who live in the real world understand this. The challenge and the mark of a successful campaign is that the campaigner and her or his team accept their baggage and either manage it or address it, either by confronting it directly or spinning it so that people regard it from a different POV.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)where the superficial stuff is a large determiner of whether you pay any attention to someone or not.
(I know ... I know ... "I picked her out of the crowd because she had such a beautiful brain!"
appalachiablue
(41,127 posts)He doesn't set the standard for Presidential material any more than Madison, Lincoln, TR, LBJ or Gerald Ford. The first Presidents from my later youth were LBJ, Nixon and Carter; it was unthinkable that we expected the next president to resemble the former.
On the voice and scolding issues, Hillary was always said to be shrill, gruff, blunt and worse in Bill's first 2 terms when she was quite active and visible. She's toned that down over time somewhat.
We need a President with experience, wisdom, skill, passion, integrity and an agenda and vision for this declining country, one that is REAL, not soaring oratory promises and intentions. History is your friend.
procon
(15,805 posts)realistically appearance -- good and bad -- is a factor that cannot be overlooked. In many ways, elections are like a beauty contest, even if its only subconsciously, most of us are either drawn to or repelled by the way people look. Sure it's all about shallow perceptions, but remember we're talking about the average American voter who knows all the pertinent Kardashian factoids, but can't name the 3 branches of government.
A presidential candidate that appears too old, too curmudgeonly, or if they have an unpleasant speaking voice, can change a lot of things to markedly improve their public image. Sanders numbers are very low, and when multiple news outlets are referring to him a "fringe" candidate (heard that from guests on two separate MSNBC shows yesterday, and on CNN today), he needs every advantage he can get. If he wants people to hear his message and be interested enough to learn more, rather than just dismiss him straight away on a bad first impression, he simply can't ignore these seeming unimportant criticisms.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)grandfatherly appearance and way about him. It makes me trust him, that he's going to protect me an my interests. I think, appearance wise, it goes in his favor.
csziggy
(34,136 posts)Nixon came off as not comfortable in front of the camera while Kennedy radiated youthful dynamics.
Appearance makes a difference, particularly since campaigns have been televised.
Sobax
(110 posts)It's not all their fault, it's largely because of the media. Unfortunately some of our best Presidents in history would not be able to get elected today because they're not photogenic enough.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Electing candidates for their appearance got us Reagan and Schwarzenegger in California and then Reagan as POTUS. Sure some of our "pretty" elected officials turned out to be good at governing too but it should never be a criteria. We as a nation need to grow up.
But I'm not going to hold my breath.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Sad but true 
MADem
(135,425 posts)in terms of appearance. It's exhausting, I should think.
Women are expected to have insanely large behinds and fake eyelashes and trout-like lips, and they go to the plastic surgeon for these things. Men are expected to go to the gym (or the plastic surgeon) for those "six pack" abs. Fat gets sucked out, fat gets pumped in, and where fat won't do, saline or silicone will. For a decade now, the younger set has run around getting everything bleached and waxed. And hair extensions!! What is up with that?
The "Beauty Industry" is making a fortune. Be interesting to see them try to make over former presidents!!!! George Washington would probably be thrilled with those dental implants they'd give him!!!
The Shrub got his unibrow trimmed once he started running for POTUS, after all...
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)He make rethink this come January, now the date set to release Hillary's emails. I don't know what's there, and I'm able to change my opinion, when facts are presented. We'll see what the facts are, and see what's just part of another shit show.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)But they can vote at 18, and they don't like being lectured to. Bernie could be inspiring if he started talking about how he could fulfill people's hopes and dreams instead of just focusing on what is wrong.
That worked for Obama.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Not a single person I know (and that goes for any age group, any political affiliation) gives two shits about hope and dreams. We've seen how that works out. People are hungry for truth. There's a reason BLM has been so popular: it calls out the lies.
Sanders is inspiring because he tells that truth, and has for decades.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I won't attack you for it like Sander's supporters do to others.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)It's a political board, it happens.
I will say, though I strongly disagree with almost everything you post, you have generally been polite from what I've seen. Thanks.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)... for your politeness as well.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)so he can say how he will fix it.
From yesterday:
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Most of the younger people (30 and under) that I know don't think they know it all and don't pretend they do either.
Frankly, I like them more than a lot of the baby boomer generation folks that I've met. They seem really narcissistic to me. Like everything about themselves matters and nothing else matters in the slightest.
That's just a general personal observation. Obviously it's different for everyone based on their own experiences.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)
Autumn
(45,056 posts)
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)So often it comes from their parents. Great job.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I don't believe these anti-Bernie threads are productive though I can see how the pro HRC folks are tempted to make them given the attacks on Hillary from some of his more vituperative supporters here...
The problem is it's a plague on both houses and makes DU toxic...
I have more faith that I will win the Powerball than I have faith my plea for comity will be answered.
Please carry on...
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Do they believe someone is going to stop supporting Hillary or Bernie because their supporters attack the other?
It actually has the opposite effect...
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But I really don't think persuasion/converting is the goal ... No, I think the attack thread posters' purpose for posting is just to have something to say. And the nastier the better!
procon
(15,805 posts)I have to go elsewhere to try to learn about Dem candidates.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Sadly. People (some) love to argue, banter and fight on the internets.
I never was very good at it but sometimes I'd engage.
I just try really hard not to do that any more. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes not.
In the end it doesn't make me feel good.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)
deutsey
(20,166 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I think Bernie can and should work on being more inspirational. I, personally, would LOVE to hear him talk more about how we can fix things. I realize it is early, and we have a long way to go. But I hope that is part of his game plan. I think most of the likely Dem voters already know what is wrong, so he can move on from that.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)He's seventy three years old...I don't expect him to change...
Please don't take it as personal criticism... I like HRC a lot...I believe she has a plan to get elected and in order to accomplish anything you have to get elected...It grates on me to come here and see her attacked on a daily basis...I see why some would lash out at her detractors...I just don't see the efficacy of it all...
That being said I expect the enmity to grow and not subside...I am about electing Democrats and there are issues I believe in that are non-negotiable and I realize there are those here whose list of non-negotiable issues are much longer than mine...
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)
one_voice
(20,043 posts)DU is in a very bad place right now.
I'm not really supporting any candidate right now. I still think it's too early. I'm waiting to see who else might get in the race. I do have a preference. There's no way I'm talking about it. Not here. If I wanna be bullied and have nasty insults hurled at me I'll go to a 'mixed' board where I can speak freely without worrying about cliques and getting my posts hidden.
I always thought of DU as a safe haven...not so much anymore.
randys1
(16,286 posts)But there is time to fix all this.
He many just be 30, or 29, not sure.
But I have faith
Autumn
(45,056 posts)
randys1
(16,286 posts)to is not related to me and I keep politics out of the office if I can.
The fact is most have not heard of him, we must acknowledge that and do something about it
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Politics are about values. Voting is about being a good citizen. I'm just glad he's not a conservative. I would have felt like an abject failure as a parent if he ended up as a republican/libertarian/right winger. LOL! Everything else on the political spectrum is gravy as far as I am concerned.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Autumn
(45,056 posts) MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Why? I am not a man. I would think you could tell that from my user name. Did you just assume I am a man because I have mentioned my wife? I hate to break it to you, but marriage is legal now.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)never had a problem with that. based on that I thought you were a man. No offense intended.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Got a link to that?
Autumn
(45,056 posts)Obviously they were wrong.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Not a single person I know my age cares in the slightest about how they sound or look. Sanders treats people like they have intelligence, and he's honest. That's what matters to us. We're tired of charisma.
Of course, both anecdotal pieces of evidence. But I think he underestimates how powerful the truth can be. Not enough people will hear it because of our media, but those who do will listen. There's a reason libertarians are supporting him. There's a reason reddit exploded over him.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I am very aware there is more than one point of view from the eyes of our young people. My son says people his age already know what's wrong in this country (at least the ones who care about politics). He said (and I agree) that Bernie needs to shift to a stronger message about how he will bring about change.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I'm curious as to how any of this will be accomplished. I personally think he should have run for governor as an independent with the backing of various groups there. He could have made real change, and helped build momentum for a national third party alternative on the left. But instead, he is severely limiting himself through the presidential run.
Totally agree that anyone my age who has thought about it knows what's wrong in this country. Problem is most don't think. Your son sounds like a smart kid.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)You must be proud.
That doesn't, however, mean that Hillary can escape her blunders and her skeletons her statements like "I don't want to raise taxes on anyone".
We are at a point right now or very soon where her numbers are going to fall, her bubble will burst, she has everything to lose and will.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I thought some people might be interested. I think Bernie CAN be more inspirational to young people. I think people already know what is wrong (and Bernie is spot on about that). But he needs to be more vocal about how he can help change things.
And yes, I am very proud of my son. He is one of the good guys. And he will definitely encourage his friends to vote.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)far more than a lot of the vehement didactic posts here, so I kicked & recced your post.
We're so far away from any real race yet, I'm happy to see there are good people joining in the race for the democratic nomination.
I too know some younger folks and will ask them more what they're thinking. I'm always curious about their views. I'd say of people in their 20's that I've talked with so far, some really like Bernie and will vote for him and some really like Hillary and will vote for her. I certainly haven't met any that talk with the kind of hyperventilated hatred that some posters here at DU seem to think passes for rational debate - yuck!
I'm also interested in whether Joe Biden might join the race.
I would also love to see younger people become more a part of the national political landscape. I'm sure there are many of them at more local and state levels. The democratic party should most definitely allow room for them on a federal level too. It's their future and their present that's very much at stake!
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)has little, if any, chance to win the primary, and even less to win the general election.
Would like to see Sanders in a major policy position in next Admin, but Senate is fine too.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)...in agreement with the OP...
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)And he won the election.
He is hurting the party by running for president? Hillary should be the only candidate? Are you joking/
frylock
(34,825 posts)Sanders is actually going to force Clinton to take a position on any number of issues.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's an equally likely scenario.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)a measure, perhaps...of how far we have diverged away from candidates true positions on real issues? We have been so sucked up in the "commercialized Campaign RACE" and are no longer seeing the Issues as the Most important fact....
We spend way too much of our time and focus on appearances, performances etc as IF it were a Sports event or a Broadway production, imo.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I think it's always been true that you have to get the voter's attention and keep it for a time before you can get their vote. Nothing new about that.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)but the delivery Is. I'm Old.
I remember real News on the tv machine...I also remember when candidates Used to connect with people, not "pre-selected audiences equipped with pre-scripted questions" on the Issues shown on media as some sort of "docudrama" crap.
Sensationalistic Campaigns aren't working for any of us..But them.
And I believe it is a healthy thing to be at least Aware of the shallowness of "appearances" becoming an "electability" factor. We ought to be listening and paying attention to the Words he speaks (or any other candidate) and worry less about his style of delivery.
Even Kennedy came to my little community of about 3 thousand and I don't think you can get any further away from DC back in the day....
The points Bernie makes about the issues that matter to all of us is what sets Bernie apart from the rest of "them".
He's forcing a debate on the Issues.
He knows he's a long shot. But that isn't discouraging me or my family.
He's gaining support from all sorts of people, not just Dems/Libs...but from People who care about the Real issues from all sides.
We stand with Bernie.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Remember how he won the debate because Nixon had flop sweat all over him the whole time? Nothing has changed in that regard.
I'm old too.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)tells us that's the reason.
Maybe it was...but I think he lost on the merits of his arguments, personally
eloydude
(376 posts)Your son digs Bernie, and will vote for Bernie when it's time.
Right now, you are a confirmed Hillary supporter, and you're creating an anti-Bernie OP.
Good job. Way to instill distrust.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)We live in WA state. The nominee is basically decided prior to our primary. My son will vote for the Democratic nominee just like I will.
The other incorrect assumption you make is that I am a "confirmed" HRC supporter. The reality is I am a confirmed DEMOCRATIC supporter and that is all.
Now, do I have a problem with the right wing style screeds against HRC here? Absolutely. I would have the same problem if people were posting right wing style screeds against Bernie here.
And believe me, if he gets any traction there will be right wing screeds about him out there. Commie, pinko, he's going to nationalize the banks, etc. etc.
Now how would you feel if DU'ers picked those up and posted them here? Would you be disgusted? You certainly should be.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)unnecessary.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)He has met plenty of them in his short life. Like me, he does not "adore" any of them. I can always tell the people that really haven't had much interaction with actual politicians. They are prone to that adoration thing.
ananda
(28,858 posts)... stupid and crazy as those on the other side.
In a nutshell, then, we have ageism and looksism
operating as the barometers for choosing a president
Sheesh!
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Theyll be called a sexist. Again. Im sure you wont join in on that though.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)The sexism I have seen about Hillary has revolved around the notion that she should answer for Bill's politics. As if she is just the little woman and can't possibly have a different opinion than Bill.
The other one that pisses me off is the media that (at least in 2008) claimed she got where she did because of Bill. I think it's the opposite. He got where he is because of her. He did not have the discipline to do it on his own.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)but certainly she's not accountable for them. As for the second thing... I tend to believe they are where they are because of each other. It wouldnt surprise me one bit if she drops the hammer from time to time though. 
kentuck
(111,079 posts) arcane1
(38,613 posts)Whatever.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)And as I said up thread in another response, when probed he said it wasn't about age. It was about the tone.
frylock
(34,825 posts)
Sancho
(9,067 posts)Actually, the younger women are very interested in Hillary's support of women's rights internationally.
Many 20-somethings in Florida do not know Bernie, but the ones who do like him. Many more like Hillary for the work over the years on behalf of women, and a perception that she is more understanding of immigrants. Even before her "path to citizenship", she was popular with the international crowd.
I've heard a few others respond to Bernie's radio show (on Thom Hartman) and say he is "harsh" too.
At any rate, your son seem perceptive and thoughtful.
With my older (mostly GOP) neighbors, there is a bit of anti-semitism. I realize it's not overt, but I hear it and it would be disingenuous to ignore it. I don't know if that would make a big difference in an election with the hard core repubs, but it might make a little difference in the independent, protestant crowd if they had to choose Bernie vs. Hillary. The mission crowd have often run parallel to Clinton foundation projects, and they think positively about them while they sometimes lack support for some of Israel's policies. In purple states that come down to a few hundred votes, little things count.
Interesting post.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)I want to see Bernie's ankles before I make a decision to support him.
djean111
(14,255 posts)because he feels Bernie can really effect change, and Hillary is more of the same.
He will be voting for Bernie in the primary. Grandson is very active on Reddit, and says Bernie is pretty popular there.
So we can trade anecdotal stuff all day. At this point, during the primary season, I cannot imagine this stuff will sway even one single person. The biggest challenge, IMO, will be to GOTV if Hillary wins the nomination. To start trying to do a "everybody else loves Hillary, so you should too", without a detailed conversation (HRC loves conversations, right?) is kinda premature. Especially here, where so many of us look at, you know, policies'n'stuff. Boring to some, I guess. Almost looks like the initial "Hillary's got it in the bag, so why waste time on policies and platform?" push is still being attempted.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I asked my son because I was interested in what the young people are saying. It is interesting to hear from you what they are saying as well.
djean111
(14,255 posts)feel about him. Grandson says AMAs are almost always good, the only ones Redditors don't really like are the ones where the AMAer is not really taking questions, but has canned-seeming responses.
My grandson lives with me, and we talk about politics surprisingly often.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I am just fascinated by the youth take on various political candidates. Should be interesting to see what kind of questions they ask.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)You are using the opinion of your son in order to call Bernie uncharismatic and old with an annoying voice?
Well, at least you decided against personality attacks on candidates.
Thank your son for his input and yours, but I think I will vote for the candidate with the best policies.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I just thought folks might find it interesting to hear a young person's take on it. Apparently it is not enough for Bernie supporters if a person would say "yes, I would vote for him." You really need for Bernie to be adored unconditionally, or they are the ENEMY.
I find that odd.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I don't think many are buying what you're trying to push.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Not going as well as planned, it seems 
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)If me being honest about that means you think I am attacking Bernie -- well, that is just over the top weird, IMO.
But let's be honest -- his supporters here will get nasty as all get out with ANYONE who doesn't pledge their undying adoration of Bernie.
I will say, for about the 119th time, I like him fine. I don't think he is electable, but I would vote for him in the general. Now, in the minds of some, that makes me an ENEMY! LOL. You'll just have to get over it.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)We do see people like you here every election cycle. It's all been done before; it's all been said before. There's nothing original in your approach.
Also, "let's be honest" is not a real compelling phrase, whether it comes from a car salesman or from you. Thank you.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts) Response to MaggieD (Reply #119)
Post removed
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)You are posting on a political website the political opinion of yourself and your son with an elaboration as to why you believe another person's candidate is uncharismatic, old, and possessed of an off-putting voice.
I don't consider you an "enemy" and most of what I post here is to persuade people to either get active or interested in a bill, policy, or issue. Or in this case a candidate.
I merely am interested primarily in policy in this case. This isn't about "enemies" or personality, this is about my being honest in the motivations of what I write.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I like Bernie just fine. I will trust him after he puts a (D) after his name OR the primary is over and he does not enter as an Independent.
His supporters, on the other hand, are odd. I think it's pretty clear (even in this thread) that his supporters go into attack dog mode at the slightest suggestion that he may not be the second coming.
YMMV and that is fine.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)You seem rather fond of hyperbole when it comes to describing the people that are supporters of Bernie and this is not the first time you have cast such aspersions. I fail to see how this is constructive.
Again, I base my decisions about who I support on policy and Senator Sanders has policies that are more in keeping with my own so far.
cali
(114,904 posts)Funny, how on Reddit, Bernie is far and away the favorite with young people. Not that you're making up this story about your kid, but interesting how it comes after I posted my story about my 28 year old son and how all the people he knows his age are turned off by Hillary and support Bernie.
as I said, cool story, mags!
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)LOL! We don't bash liberals in my house. So my kid is not brainwashed except to know republicans suck.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Now she says she raised her son to be a liberal.
Lots of contradictions from this one. Definitely agenda driven.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Got a link to that? Better yet, is lying about a poster against the terms of service here? Apparently not. LOL!
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)In this sub thread exchange where you said that liberals helped elect Nixon by opposing the Vietnam war:
Here
Why the name change again?
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I was for the war and hate liberals? Huh?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Reading is fundamental.
You contradict yourself a lot.
A good thing about honesty, you don't have to remember what you said.
Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #111)
Post removed
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)The problem with Bernie supporters is that anything less than unconditional adoration is perceived by them as "bashing." I wholeheartedly agree with every position Bernie has taken.
But that is not enough for Bernie supporters. If I am not bashing Hillary I am the enemy, apparently.
It is very odd.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)He is not even mentioned in that post. Do so-called "liberals" that do everything they can to take down Democratic candidates disgust me? Absolutely. Is that what you meant about bashing liberals? Well then guilty as charged. And I have no problem admitting it that the fringe left is a problem in my opinion.
I don't know who you think you are persuading with that crap. If anything it makes me wonder why a candidate seems to attract such nasty people. And I find it very odd that none of you seem to share his values about his distaste for negative campaigning.
I thought you were insinuating I have bashed Bernie.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You are clearly bashing LIBERALS in that thread, or as you say "liberals."
You think the fringe left is a problem. You also think liberals are a problem. You said that Rahm told the truth when he called liberals fucking retards.
I'm not looking to persuade anyone, certainly not a liberal bashing disruptor on DU.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)To me, you can't spout right wing talking points about other Democrats and really be a liberal. Especially when your only motivation seems to be to take down the front runner.
You may think of those folks as liberals, but they aren't to me, or to many Democratic voters. You're really no different that the right wingers that have attacked her for years.
But in any case, I was talking about liberal candidates in response to Cali's post. Context is everything.
Marr
(20,317 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Always was. When he was just a sprout and arguing with me, I'd say to him: get that little lawyer out of your head. Politcally, we disagree more than we agree, but he does have a great nose for bullshit, and he thinks she's full of it.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Raised around 'viral ads' and every sort of PR outreach imaginable, this generation is very sophisticated when it comes to detecting advertising, and they instantly mistrust it. They seem to regard Hillary Clinton as just another bought-and-paid for politician. Slick ads and logos and parsed language isn't going to cut it with them.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
Autumn
(45,056 posts)
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)The real question here is will his young friends all vote in the primary? It is still true that older people vote in much higher numbers than young ones. 2008 was a real aberration.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)There were a TON of young people there for the first time in my memory. Obama clearly inspired them. But we live in WA state and the nomination is all but decided by the time it gets to us.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)But they didn't turn out in 2012. At least not in the large numbers they had four years earlier. It will be the older voters in both parties who decide the nominees.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Obama personally thanked them for their grassroots organizing efforts in 2008 and 2012 and they're doing the same for Bernie. They've got organizing efforts set up for each state. His message is really resonating with them.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I'm glad to see Bernie is trying to use Reddit to make inroads. He definitely needs more name recognition if he wants to move forward.
TBF
(32,047 posts) MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Also not a dude. LOL! But thanks.
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)He tends to get asked the serious questions because he gives good answers. But, on the cable shows like Hardball where Matthews wants to wind people up, he will almost never smile and looks to be in permanent crisis mode. What you see on camera is a worried, angry old man, and people don't want their President to look like that.
This is reality. Why are these politicians always smiling at the camera, or at least trying to look their bright-eyed best? Because that's what people want. A little coaching will solve the problem.
On the Sunday shows, which tend to be a little more measured in their approach, he's calmer and comes off much better.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I guess this is a subjective answer, but so is the kid's.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)Needless to say, I agree with your son, and I ain't nowhere near 22 anymore.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)be told how worthy you are, even when the fucking boats on fire. Got it. I don't say that without recognizing mine was the most liberal generation in decades and today are the ones who have used up centuries of resources without putting much back and may well be credited with the demise of life on earth, or that WE ALL live atop the bones of 50 million people our ancestors killed so we could have their land.
That said...
He is lecturing because the people around him are burning up the world they and their progeny live on.
And their progeny are helping them and making snarky comments about Gramps.
It's more or less the same speech Jimmy Carter was giving when he was considerably younger, and the snarky comments led to Ronald Reagan.
You gonna get exactly what you deserve.
We did.
randr
(12,409 posts)While we all would like to think we base our choices on reasonable analysis and ideological preference; it is the nuances of personality that the majority of American voters find attractive.
Someone once said we choose our Presidents the same way we choose our soap. I think this is an accurate assessment of the American electorate.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Bernie's message resonates with my generation. Your son's opinion doesn't jive with what I have found to be true among my peers.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Do a DU search if you care to. I tell people who use that against her the same thing I would tell your son, such things are highly subjective and such areas of criticism ( ie a candidates physical presence as opposed to policy preferences) are very risky areas to engage in. It makes me dislike the speaker when they say a candidate has physical characteristics they don't like because I'm not casting a soap opera here. Also, such realms of critique are very often employed as euphemisms and dog whistles.
Also, because I have known so many people who faced challenges because of the way they spoke, from the soft spoken to those with speech impediments, to people with regional accents both in this country and abroad. I'm very used to all of this, it is in fact even a part of my work.
The verbiage used tells much about the speaker and intent. For example, Hillary is often called shrill, Shrillary even. Men are never called shrill. She is also regularly compared to a school teacher, nagging wife or your Mother in lecture mode. All of that boils down to ' She's a woman, not a man'.
It's the sort of campaigning that makes people despise politics.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)1 - This is the point of view of your son, who obviously has multiple contacts through social media and various channels.
--a - His point of view, is based on his perception of the people around him.
--b - This view does not denigrate or minimize who Bernie is and what he represents. Since the question is not about what he thinks about Bernie, rather, his chances given the current scenario.
2 - The younger crowd tune Bernie out due to his voice and demeanor.
--a - This is entirely predictable, and common. So I can accept that. Many voters do not pay as much attention to the issues, rather, they are commonly influenced by the physical factors, looks, voice and mannerisms. In fact, hold pictures of candidates for a particular election, and many could tell who won or will win by picture alone.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-look-of-a-winner/
3 - I did not take this as an attack on Bernie, particularly since I like Bernie, I just don't think he will win the primaries. I am more of an O'Malley guy to tell the truth, but surpassing Hillary Clinton is a tall order at this time. In fact, we won't be able to tell till much closer to primary season. Why I don't take it as an attack on bernie is due to:
--a - Bernie does need to work on charisma. Notable person of interest to emulate would be Ron Paul. Guy sucks, but he is able to excite college students and bring them to his point of view. He was even able to sway my brother during the 2008 elections. I am not saying Ron Paul is any good, but he was able to influence quite a few college students with his persona.
--b - I know there are a lot of fans of Bernie around here, however, the people here is not who Bernie needs to reach. He needs to reach others, not just his current supporters.
The last part is important. I do know that Bernie has quite the following here, but for him to have a chance, it needs to go beyond this group and be able to influence the younger crowd.
I am sorry, but yes, appearance, demeanor and delivery is important. These aspects can not be discounted when it comes to elections since people don't just vote for the issues. They vote for whomever can sell themselves best, issues is just a part of the package, and it is smaller than you think...
So yes, that also has to be considered, to insist that it is ageist or sexist or any other *ist, well, they are right. It can be considered ageist or sexist and so forth, but the problem is... it is not us that needs to be convinced, and people are inherently unfair.
Most of us here like Bernie and what he represents, the challenge is and has always been, for him to reach everyone else.
rock
(13,218 posts)Incidentally I'm too ecstatic that both are running and will be happy to support either. I can hardly wait for the primary debates.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)help her with CONTENT .
madokie
(51,076 posts)I disagree with your son. Bernie's voices is a welcome change from the likes of most politicians. To me Hillary's voice grates on my nerves. I'll vote for our nominee but I won't pay much attention to hit pieces on Bernie like you just posted. You should know better.
Oh, I'm old, 67, but I'm around a lot of young people and they're all really enthused that the 'old man' is running and they love what he has to say and they all say they trust him like no other politician they've known, read about or listened too. Not a single one has said they wouldn't vote for Bernie in fact they're all in agreement for the most part that they'll be sure to vote this time around rather than blow it off as they did the last one to a few, depending on the age of the person I'm referencing.
Not a single one of them has mentioned anything about Bernies voice grating on them but some sure has about your choices voice. so there
What I'm hearing from the younger crowd is they are charged up and soaking up everything that Bernie is saying like a sponge. Can't wait to get to vote for him.
I vote this OP of yours as a FAIL
Sorry, Have a good evening, I plan too.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)Okay, he used the word "grandpa" but what was viscerally turning him off was voice/delivery, not age per se. Really, you can hear clips from Sanders speaking 20 years ago, and he doesn't sound much different.
That said, there are probably lots of people who for whom Sanders' age will be a negative. Though not always an insurmountable one.
JEB
(4,748 posts)are music to God's ears.
cilla4progress
(24,726 posts)environmentalist daughter says she and all her progressive friends are really excited about Bernie!
So, there you go! Just like we humans!
