Bernie Sanders puts forth a bill to make 4 yr public college tuition free, pay for it with a modest

[peacebird]

Tax on stock trades.
I keep reading that America needs a better trained work force, so this should be applauded, right?

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/242508-sanders-college-should-be-free

[randys1]

1. VERY much applauded. But as someone else once said

the owners, they are not interested in educated people

you do get me more and more excited about his candidacy though, fucking miracles can happen

we DID elect a BLACK MAN named HUSSEIN as president

[leftofcool]

2. I would add trade/skilled worker schools to that as well.

College is not for everyone and some in the skilled industry make more than some college graduates.

[peacebird]

5. Agree totally. And the trades can't be outsourced

[BainsBane]

3. In countries where higher education is free

It is also highly selective and traditionally a lower percentage of citizens attended college than in the US. Now I'm not sure if that is still true since the percentage of college graduates has dropped in the US. I think it very unlikely this really means everyone, since that is not at all how it works in the Northern European countries that Sanders has referenced. Admittance exams are highly competitive--yes, testing--and those who don't get the highest scores go on to work in fields that don't require a college education.

I'd like to see the figures for how all of this adds up.

[F4lconF16]

4. +1

Though I will say we have the money in this country to train anyone to do whatever they want in life, regardless of ability. The collective will to do it just isn't strong enough.

But then again, that could be said for a lot of things, and not just education.

[BainsBane]

6. Even in socialist countries

Like Cuba and the former Soviet Union, not everyone receives higher education. It simply isn't necessary for the functioning of the country. There is a highly competitive, selective process. It just isn't based on class.

[F4lconF16]

9. I'd like to see that education available to whomever wanted it

Regardless of whether it has happened in the past. It isn't necessary, but it is a smart thing to do, imo.

I also think that competition should not be involved in education, period.

[xocet]

15. I agree with your statements. n/t

[BainsBane]

18. Here's the thing

From each according to his ability to each according to his need. Neither society nor all people need higher education. Any society requires lots of manual labor jobs than we in the US consider lesser. In a planned economy, resources are carefully allocated according to the needs of the people as a whole. There simply are not resources for everyone to live lives of the mind because the country needs to have far more mundane occupations for it to function. Education serves a specific purpose for the advancement of the nation, the people as a whole. People become doctors because medical care is necessary, engineers, etc... They don't necessarily earn more than manual laborers. In fact, at least in theory they should not earn anymore. There are trade offs between capitalist and socialist systems. The focus on individual choice is a hallmark of liberalism and capitalism. That concept of choice, of individual rights, is essential to the ideological justification for private property and the accumulation of capital. Under socialism, the rights belong to the people as a whole, and the collective good trumps the individual. Individual intellectual self-fulfillment is a luxury, something that cannot take precedence over the economic subsistence of the rest of society.

[Chathamization]

46. City University had free education and open admissions until the Federal Government

pressured NYC to charge tuition. We also have three states working on completely free community colleges, which would be halfway there (expanding community colleges into 4-year institutions might be one idea, since they seem to be able to keep costs down better than many state schools).

It's definitely doable. It wouldn't even be that difficult, we just need the political will to do it.

[kenfrequed]

14. Are you telling me...

And we can't do better for our citizens than Cuba and the former Soviet Union?


We can do much better!

We need post secondary education free to all as it is the building blocks to a better educated and better skilled workforce.

Personally I would go a step farther and make free education a lifetime benefit to assist in retraining and reeducating workers whose livelihoods have been lost to trade or to changes in technology.

[F4lconF16]

17. Absolutely.

Retraining needs to be fully available for anyone who wants it. People change careers all the time.

[BainsBane]

19. Look, I'm not painting a picture of a utopia here

I'm describing what actually occurs. I think you know very well that nothing we are discussing here is going to get passed by the Republican congress. So you are free to imagine any alternate reality you want. I am simply talking about what I know about how things work where education is free.

There are places like Brazil where the public universities are free. They are the best universities. Then there are a series of private universities, primarily Catholic, that are less rigorous and prestigious and charge tuition.

[kenfrequed]

29. The solution is practical

Implying utopia or denying a utopian impulse is merely a way to paint the issue as being irrealistic.

We don't get anywhere by setting the bar so low that the compromise point is the status quo. Will we get free public education for all? Not right away, but you don't get anywhere by compromising your compromised compromromises before you even get to the negotiating table.

Part of leading is inspiring a vision of how things could be better and then trying like hell to make it so.

[BainsBane]

39. compromise my compromises?

I support no principle that says all Americans deserve a PhD or even a bachelors. I support no principle that says all must aspire to a life of white collar work or bourgeois leisure. Those are not my principles. There is no reason for everyone to go to university. It serves no social function. I support more rigorous and higher quality K-12, which would render some of what goes on in higher ed unnecessary.

I think a European-like educational system or even the Cuban system is perfectly satisfactory. My goal is not to make life even easier for the upper 10-20 percent. In fact, that figures no where in my concerns. I am far more concerned about poverty and a living wage.

You don't care about what can get through congress, fine. You want to create some ideal you claim is not a utopia fine. But do not assume I share the same concerns as the white middle and upper-middle class. I do not. In fact, I think they have it pretty damn good already, and a system I create would result in a lowering of the standard of living of many on DU and the majority being paid a living wage with which they could support their families. I would also include the international working class in my concerns and find ways to put a halt to exploitation they face by international capital for the benefit of corporate profits and the consumption society here in the US. There are all kinds of good and noble occupations that do not require a college education, and I see nothing wrong with a society that provides that opportunity for some and occupations that involve higher education for others, in accordance with merit and the needs of the people as a whole. From each according to his ability to each according to his need is just fine by me.

[kenfrequed]

42. Hyperbole and false choices.

The reason you go in asking for free education for all is so that you can actually manage to get a year or two of tech or community college. Your continued allusions to utopianism aside, this is basic negotation. Ask for more than what you are willing to settle for. That is basic negotiation and amazingly enough it is where democrats seem to fail frequently.

Trying to pretend you can have either a living wage OR a college education program for all is a false choice.

[BainsBane]

44. Do whatever you want.

Am I stopping you?

You say you want to think beyond what can be passed to broader principles. You chastise me for compromising YOUR principles, which you assume you are entitled to impose on me, while dismissing mine out of hand as hyperbole. Ask for whatever you want, but don't you dare assume my role is to serve your interests.

[kenfrequed]

47. And now...

Faux outrage.

Yeah, judging from your other discussions on this thread it is clear you just shift all over the bloody place and are just spoiling to make a fuss. I am finished with you.

[MaggieD]

51. Wow, very well said

It's so nice to see informed, realistic comments here. Thanks.

[tkmorris]

24. It's amusing that you chose Cuba and the old Soviet Union for examples

Because of course that is exactly what Sanders' supporters want to emulate.

[BainsBane]

31. Did I say it was?

FFS. If you aren't going to follow my point, why bother responding?

[BrotherIvan]

7. I am so surprised at how misinformed Americans are about Europe

And blame the MSM for it. People need to travel more and see what is going on in the world.

Here is information with sources in the article

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/03/how-u-s-graduation-rates-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

What about college? The U.S. once led the world in college graduates. As an example of this, Americans age 55-to-64 still lead their peers in other nations in the portion with college degrees (41 percent). But this number has flat-lined for Americans. In 2008, the same percentage of Americans age 25-to-34 and age 55-to-64 were college graduates.

Meanwhile, other nations have caught up, and some have pulled ahead. Among this younger age group, 25- to 34-year-olds, all of the following nations now have a larger percent of college graduates than the U.S.: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Ireland, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom.

The idea that Europeans are kept out of college is the same misinformation campaign that was used against European/Canadian style healthcare. It is just not true. The American system is in fact the WORST and most expensive of any developed nation.

In Europe, as I actually spoke with my relative two days ago and asked this question, college admission is based on GPA. He said no one he knew was not allowed to college that wanted to. Some did not have a high enough GPA to get into the program of their choice on the first try, but they could go beef up their resume with work experience or interning and got in. And they get PAID to go to college, not walk out with life-crushing debt that follows them for the rest of their lives.

Here is more of the long answer http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=407937

[erronis]

10. But a US college edjikation ain't what it used to be, and Europe used to have better trade schools.

Having watched several of my friends, children struggle to pay for a ticket - a four-year degree - and then struggle to turn that into fries, I don't think any of the college stuff is worth what it was 20-30 years ago.

BAs, MBAs, MSSc, etc. Not even sure about LLD, JD, PhD. MDs are finding it not very rewarding to spend 10-12 years in study and loans.

Way back in the 70s when I still hadn't completed college, I worked/traveled in Europe. I was very impressed by the university graduates compared to my exposure to the same in the US, and I was even more impressed by the technical schools.

Why can't we chuck the current for-profit university/college model in the US and make it into a trade school system. I know this might disrupt some people's ideas of superlative intelligence, but it might free up a lot of old ivy-encrusted buildings to use for better purposes.

[BrotherIvan]

36. We do need to push for vocational schools

Because we don't have them, predatory private institutions such as "computer learning center" and other scams promising a job after a certification course have filled the gap. We need training because companies no longer pay to train workers. We need some kind of link between private enterprise and government program to train and hire in a kind of apprenticeship program. This includes teachers, doctors, nurses and all skilled trades. We are falling so far behind the rest of the world.

[BainsBane]

13. Your own evidence contradicts your point

Americans led at 41 percent, though as I noted the US rate has since dropped. That means that the majority of Europeans do not attend college. Your relatives likely know people similar to themselves rather than bakers and laborers.

[BrotherIvan]

25. Non sequitor in action

I am arguing that people in Europe and Canada not only are NOT kept out of college as you say, but they are paid to go if they choose to. In the US, the high cost of tuition keeps people out. And because of that, college graduates are dropping in the US. People can't afford it and if they do, they are saddled with tremendous debt for life. This is an entirely discriminatory system and I can't believe anyone would support it. That high graduation rate in the US was when state schools and community colleges were affordable for a middle or lower income student. Now they are out of reach without major debt.

On top of that, Europe also has subsidized trade schools which are totally absent in the US. So if one chooses not to go to college, one might choose job training. Schools in Europe in particular are very rigorous, more akin to our graduate programs, so some people decide that college isn't for them. That's absolutely a fair choice. In the US, we leave people to fend for themselves with NO support after high school. Our only job program is in the damn military where you have to risk your life in order to pay for college. I know because I taught at an economically challenged school and the ONLY recruiters that came were the military and the cops. Three students wanted to go to college and couldn't afford to so they signed up for the military, the other we were able to talk out of it. It's shameful and disgusting that our students must make that choice.

It might be better to do some research before making any kind of assertions. College is not the only path and as you mentioned, bakers and laborers would not choose to take on hundreds of thousands worth of debt to get a college diploma they don't need.

"The majority of Switzerland’s students opt for vocational training instead of college—and that does not mean the country is dumbing down"

http://world.time.com/2012/10/04/who-needs-college-the-swiss-opt-for-vocational-school/

As young Americans contemplate the immense cost (and considerable indebtedness) involved in a college education, it may be worthwhile to consider the options available to the Swiss—and whether they are worth importing into the U.S. In Switzerland, even though university education is free, the vast majority of students opt for a vocational training instead.

Germany, as well as Switzerland and Austria — which have similar education models — have the lowest youth unemployment figures in Europe. Young people in countries like France and the U.K., which put a greater emphasis on college degrees, fare much worse. In the U.S., youth unemployment is double that of adults.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/167476/future-vocational-education

In a new book, Schooling in the Workplace, Nancy Hoffman of Jobs for the Future argues the United States should adopt a Swiss-style vocational education system, in which students in their last two years of high school have the option of participating in highly structured workplace apprenticeships, working for pay several days per week and spending the rest of the time in the classroom. “We have a 22 percent youth unemployment rate right now, compared to 5 percent in the Netherlands or Switzerland

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/04/149927290/the-secret-to-germanys-low-youth-unemployment

The Secret To Germany's Low Youth Unemployment

About 60 percent of German high school graduates travel the same path as Dittmar, choosing vocational over academic education. Throughout his training, Lufthansa pays Dittmar the equivalent of $1,000 a month, one-third of the starting wage a qualified mechanic would get. That's part of the system that some foreign visitors can't comprehend, director Meinhold says.

"I tell them [the apprentices] don't pay anything for it, they get paid by the companies. They get money for their training," Meinhold says. "'You are training them and you are paying them for that?' They can't understand this."

[BainsBane]

34. I provided the data

Which you chose not to respond to. My point stands. The US system is based on money, the European one on merit, and that the majority do not attend university. There is no land of milk and honey where you get everything you want for free. It doesn't work like that. There are trade offs.

No where did I say the US had a better or fairer system. I simply said there are trade offs and people should not expect that suddenly they are going to get everything they want for free. Now, I provided specific data from the EU itself on the subject of higher education, university, which is what this thread is about. You want to make a number of other points about how Europe is less unequal. That's fine, but it doesn't contradict anything I said.

Vocational schools are not college. That is part of a system of merit you claim did not exist, the bakers and laborers I referenced in my first post in this thread. Not only did I do research, I provided you the data which you choose to ignore in favor of a tangent.

Now I understand the subject itself is less important than the quest for the next prom king, and believe me, I have no interest in intervening in any of that. What I object to is your ignoring my point, my evidence, and then changing the subject.

[BrotherIvan]

43. In fact, I am not sure what you are trying to argue

Upthread you say you agree with vocational schools, but to me you are arguing that because only 40% of European students choose university, somehow the proposal Sanders is making will hinder those who wish to go to college. I am arguing firstly that those who wish to go to college are allowed to. I am arguing that many don't in favor of vocational schools that directly teach to their chosen fields, such as "bakers and laborers." I am arguing that this proposal and the system he is basing it on is far superior to what we have here in the US. I have not seen any information in your posts that refutes that.

In the no free lunch argument, Sanders is proposing a tax on stock trades to pay for it. And nowhere does this proposal state anything about closing private colleges. It is about funding public colleges. And yes, this country has PLENTY of money for a strong social safety net, healthcare for all and education. Because we spend exponentially more than any other country on our military that we can't. Because we don't tax the rich or corporations at anything close to a logical rate, we can't. Because we have embraced neoliberalism and austerity, the fabric of our public institutions and social programs are crumbling. If there is a logical argument against that, I have yet to hear it.

[tkmorris]

26. Nonsense BB

The point is not how many do, it's whether they CAN. If you want to argue that they cannot, make a better case.

[BainsBane]

22. Data from the EU

The strategic framework for European cooperation in education and training that was adopted in May 2009 set a number of benchmarks, including one for tertiary education, namely that by 2020 the proportion of 30- to 34-year-olds with tertiary educational attainment should be at least 40 %. Just over one third (35.7 %) of the population aged 30 to 34 in the EU-28 had a tertiary education in 2012, rising to four out of ten (39.9 %) among women, and falling to just over three out of ten (31.5 %) among men (see Figure 3). In many Member States (Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Spain, France, Cyprus, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Finland, Sweden and the United Kingdom) the proportion of 30- to 34-year-old persons with tertiary educational attainment was already 40 % or more in 2012; this was also the case in Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. By contrast, the proportion of men with a tertiary education in this age range in Croatia, Slovakia and Italy did not even reach 20 %, as was also the case in Turkey (where the proportion of women having a tertiary educational attainment was also below 20 %).

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Tertiary_education_statistics

[xocet]

12. Given what you state, do you have past educational data from a particular country in mind? n/t

[BainsBane]

21. Here is some data from the EU

The strategic framework for European cooperation in education and training that was adopted in May 2009 set a number of benchmarks, including one for tertiary education, namely that by 2020 the proportion of 30- to 34-year-olds with tertiary educational attainment should be at least 40 %. Just over one third (35.7 %) of the population aged 30 to 34 in the EU-28 had a tertiary education in 2012, rising to four out of ten (39.9 %) among women, and falling to just over three out of ten (31.5 %) among men (see Figure 3). In many Member States (Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Spain, France, Cyprus, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Finland, Sweden and the United Kingdom) the proportion of 30- to 34-year-old persons with tertiary educational attainment was already 40 % or more in 2012; this was also the case in Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. By contrast, the proportion of men with a tertiary education in this age range in Croatia, Slovakia and Italy did not even reach 20 %, as was also the case in Turkey (where the proportion of women having a tertiary educational attainment was also below 20 %).

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Tertiary_education_statistics

[xocet]

45. Thank you for the data - I appreciate it. n/t

[sabrina 1]

16. Actually Bernie just answered your questions on Wolf Blitzer, Willy posted the video in GD. He

did state that it would be those 'who qualify' so I took that to mean that there would be standards students would have to meet. He also said 'anyone who has the ability' should not be denied the opportunity.

He wasn't asked about trade schools, but I imagine that would appeal to him and I'm sure someone will ask him. It is a great idea and should be available to those who are talented in other very necessary fields other than academics.

Regarding the numbers, Wolf asked him if his plan to tax the revenue from stock transference I believe he said, would be enough to cover these costs. He said 'more than enough' and gave the number, sorry don't remember it exactly, of the income from those taxes.

He seems to have thought this through, and most likely studied how it is done in other countries.

[BainsBane]

20. I saw the number he laid out in the article, $300 Billion

That won't cover a fraction of the costs of the public universities in this country. Mine has an annual budget of about $1.5 Billion.

I see a real advantage in taking class out of the equation and replacing it with merit. I would support such a system. I, however, think it important for people to understand that there is no utopia. This isn't free lunch for everyone. That simply isn't possible; no society has ever done it.

[sabrina 1]

30. I know many people in Europe who are highly educated and for nowhere near the cost

students here are now facing. Most of them received government grants and had no debt when they graduated.

Somehow, other nations, and even this one at one time, are able to provide their citizens with opportunities that THIS COUNTRY cannot do, yet is far, far more wealthy than any of the countries I am talking about.

So I agree with Bernie. Let's start by taxing the wealthy and go from there.

I don't see anyone else in this race providing even a starting point as to how to get there. I hear a lot of rhetoric such as 'we have to do something about education' or 'we have to do something about inequality' etc etc.

The ONLY one presenting any kind of a plan so far, has been Bernie Sanders and that is why I am supporting him.

$300 Billion is that much more than is available right now.

[BainsBane]

40. It's not that we can't do it

We choose not to. However, a European like system would result in the closing of many universities. The EU data I cited in this thread shows that they are aiming toward a higher ed rate of 40 percent. They currently send less than that to university. But as I have said elsewhere in the thread, there is no need for all citizens to go to university. There are lots of other occupations. The problem is they need to pay a living wage.

I think you know that bill doesn't stand a chance in hell of being passed in the current congress. You're going to have to do a lot more than elect a new president to get that or any of his proposals passed.

[BrotherIvan]

27. Yes he has

And the idea that college is necessary for everyone, or even the right fit is just more trying to win a point than informed discussion. Next we'll be hearing about all that racism and sexism again.

[jtuck004]

8. Traditional colleges probably won't fit well into the future, maybe should come up with

a plan that does.

BUT I AM GLAD AT LEAST HE IS SUGGESTING IT. Oops, cap lock.

As far as paying for it, it costs us far more to have a trillion dollars in student debt out there dragging down the economy and making bank$ter/donors richer than it would to simply declare it illegal to charge tuition in a public institution.

Unless we really, really liked 1865, that is. 'Cause that's pretty much where we are headed...

[erronis]

11. AGREE!

[benld74]

23. HECK YEAH!!

[Dont call me Shirley]

28. My HS junior asked me if I heard of Bernie, "he wants to make college free", she said excitedly!

She will be able to vote for him next year! Whoot! We got another young Bernie lover!

[sabrina 1]

32. Great! I hope she tells her friends and they tell theirs, and before we know it, Bernie will

be ELECTABLE! Lol! Young people have the energy and enthusiasm and none of the jaded 'we can't do it because it's never been done' attitude of a lot of 'experts'.

I can see where Bernie is very appealing to young people because he is HONEST and they can see that.

[Dont call me Shirley]

41. Bernie memes are evidently all over tmblr, he's the hot topic!

[MaggieD]

52. She's a kid....

They will believe anything. Like the puretopian idea that "free college for everybody!!!" will ever see the light of day in congress.

Reminds me of Obama's assurances to kids that he would hold hands with the rethugs and before you know it, we'll all be singing kumbaya together.

[djean111]

53. Obama and the rethugs ARE holding hands and singing kumbaya over the TPP. n/t

[L0oniX]

54. "puretopian" like they HAD in Iraq with free higher education.

Well some can't stand the idea of that happening here. I suppose they already got suckered into a forever student loan and resent the idea that what they are paying for others might get for free.

[Dont call me Shirley]

55. We gotta have hope Maggie or life is just not worth living.

We have got to throw away the man-made system of being in this world, lock, stock and barrel! And replace this effed up man-made system with a system of equality which functions well for all. So we must retain hope!

[KittyWampus]

33. Lovely. Now, how is he going to get it to pass.

[MaggieD]

50. He couldn't answer that on CNN

Pie in the sky. His pandering is really getting bad.

[think]

35. This tax would take money that is now going to high frequency traders who skim

trades by seeing others stock request and purchasing those shares in milliseconds. The high frequency trader then sells to the person who made the original request for fractionally higher amounts.

So people should understand that high frequency traders are already imposing their own hidden "tax" and this is who would lose out to a stock transaction tax. The normal traders and Americans would be paying this money to the government rather the high frequency traders.

High frequency trading adds nothing to the market and just skims money from sales. A tax on stock transitions would make this activity less profitable and slow it down.

Granted the tax though still small at $.50/$100 in transactions would be greater than that skimmed by the traders. But I hope people understand how smart this tax would be in light of what high frequency trading is about and what it would do for America's educational system.

[WillyT]

37. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[True Blue Door]

38. Jeb Bush has an even better proposal:

Tax college students to subsidize large-scale stock trades!

Bidness. Murca. Freedum.

[MaggieD]

49. You mean pay for it with a tax on your 401k

There. Fixed it for you.

I like the idea, but it could be paid for by closing tax loopholes for billionaires instead.

[mopinko]

56. yup.

stocks arent just for rich people. more and more of us have our old age in 401k's. many are backed up by risk instruments, aka, derivatives.
mostly, it will drive the trading to other countries. it is just as easy to trade in london or tokyo as it is chicago.
if it isnt done worldwide, it will bleed jobs.

make the koch brothers pay for it.