A 2.0 student can know more than a 4.0 student.

[kpete]

Last edited Tue May 19, 2015, 04:37 PM - Edit history (3)

Grades don't determine intelligence, they test obedience.
https://twitter.com/thereaIbanksy/status/600115455571824640


Thank god I am an art teacher (no such thing as a "wrong" answer),
kp

[bluestateguy]

1. What if the subject is art history?

Surely there can be wrong answers there?

[kpete]

4. as an art teacher for K-8

We speak often of Art History and my students LOOK&SEE art from a variety of sources.

Good artists copy, great artists steal.
Pablo Picasso

This fourth grader was INSPIRED by Vincent Van Gogh


if i have 30 students, my goal is to have 30 answers
ALL students are artists (as are all humans & some animals)


check out our gallery:
http://artcorpssd.com/ArtLessons/#

[Luminous Animal]

13. That is great! And thanks for the link.

[Buzz Clik]

36. So... somebody ordered that kid to paint like Picasso, and he/she obeyed.

[kpete]

38. Never Paint Like ANYONE!

weren't you listening?


Be Inspired
to be yourself
that is all.

[kpete]

45. and no that was not Picasso - It was one of at least 13 KNOWN Van Gogh "Sunflowers"

it was Van Gogh who was inspired by nature


and Van Gogh inspired Gauguin & Monet





Van Gogh also inspires Cezanne, who inspires Picasso



I showed THAT particular Picasso to my students and this is one of many inspirations from our Kindergarten Class!!!!!


Do you want me to go on?

[Buzz Clik]

46. Meh. I was a C student in art. Where's my medal?

[kpete]

47. Einstein

[MADem]

62. I gotta say, though, I'd rather have the unimaginative heart surgeon

with good attention to detail, rather than the creative slob who stomps around like "HOUSE!"



There are times when creativity is great, like making that unique painting or sculpture.

There are times when remembering the protocols and having the intelligence to implement them are key--like repairing that broken nuclear power plant.

Banksey putting a cute little black-and-white graphic on the side of the broken nuke plant ain't gonna help. Were that the case, let's send him to Chernobyl and he can make everything wonderful!

I think the quote sucks, because it sets up an "either/or" scenario--"you people" who worked hard to get good grades, why, you're just "obedient tools!" And everyone who slacked off, why, you're SPECIAL!

No need for any of that. People learn differently.

You want to know how smart someone is? Have a few conversations with them--it'll be made clear in short order.

[malaise]

37. Very cool

I like this

[TeeYiYi]

59. Impressive...

You've got some talented kids. I really enjoyed seeing individual grade levels represented within each discipline and the evolution of creativity over time. What a great program!

Exploring composition in First Grade:

Concept, color, shape, texture, space, depth of field...
Amazing grasp of technique by a 6 year old.

TYY

[Donald Ian Rankin]

2. A 4.0 student is incomparably more likely to know more than a 2.0 student than vice versa.

And they're much more likely to be smarter, as well.

Grades don't test obedience, they measure ability. That isn't quite the same thing as "knowledge" or "intelligence", but in most cases it's very strongly correlated.

Personally, I'm very grateful I'm a mathematician, where there is genuine fundamental objective truth being worked out, rather than just personal opinions, and where who gets the admiration of their peers is determined reasonably closely by intelligence and ability, rather than having a huge random element.

[kpete]

8. well perhaps you are right

-for humans who only use half of their brain

My goal as a teacher is to help children exercise BOTH sides of the brain.

the creative side of the brain tested mathematically?

I think NOT.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. Hell yes.

Mathematical research very much requires creative thought.

[kpete]

20. my brother is an economist (Prof-Cal Poly)

in a conversation with him he enlightened me that math is in fact quite creative
and we realized that we BOTH thought quite often in jpegs (visuals)

He was the A+ student - I was the D+ student

[hunter]

61. That jpeg analogy bothers me...

... once I'd trained myself to see compression artifacts in video and photographs, I could no longer unsee them.

My parents are artists, both retired from careers that their art contributed to. But they were rarely full time artists until they'd both retired. At times in my childhood my parents were starving artists too. Well, we never actually starved, but sometimes the food got to the rice and beans and bakery outlet and whatever fish my dad caught level.

My wife is an artist, but her career is something else.

We both love kids' art, our own kids, and random kids, also folk art. I have a peculiar attraction to Bob Ross inspired art I find in thrift stores. Art covers all the walls of our home.

One of our kids is an aspiring artist in Los Angeles.

I feel very fortunate to have grown up in a family where art was never considered to be something impractical or a waste of time.

Best of all, creativity in one aspect of life always seeps into everything else we humans do.

I wish there was more art in schools. There ought to be at least one class in school for each kid that inspires them, whether it be the graphic arts, music, drama, sports and physical education, woodwork, metalwork, cooking, in addition to the "academic" subjects.

Most people will not end up working at the creative "cutting" edge of their field. School, K-12, ought to be about the excitement of learning, and creating an atmosphere where every kid is literate and numerate to the best of their potential, graduating with an eagerness to learn more and focus their own creative skills, whatever they are, in pursuit of a better life for themselves and their community.

[Buzz Clik]

43. Without question, the most brilliant artists I have ever known...

... were also brilliant at math. Not particularly motivated to study math, but skilled nevertheless.

One's desire to be creative can be expressed in many, many ways.

[JonLP24]

60. Yes -- Leonardo De Vinci was a mathematician (as well as several other fields)

On his A Treatise on Painting it begins with "Let no one read me who is not a mathematician"

[greyl]

30. Please consider this information about the Left Brain / Right Brain myth.

Left Brain vs. Right: It's a Myth, Research Finds - Christopher Wanjek
--
Now, scientists at the University of Utah have debunked the myth with an analysis of more than 1,000 brains. They found no evidence that people preferentially use their left or right brain. All of the study participants — and no doubt the scientists — were using their entire brain equally, throughout the course of the experiment.

A paper describing this study appeared in August in the journal PLOS ONE. (10 Things You Didn't Know About the Brain)

The preference to use one brain region more than others for certain functions, which scientists call lateralization, is indeed real, said lead author Dr. Jeff Anderson, director of the fMRI Neurosurgical Mapping Service at the University of Utah. For example, speech emanates from the left side of the brain for most right-handed people. This does not imply, though, that great writers or speakers use their left side of the brain more than the right, or that one side is richer in neurons.

There is a misconception that everything to do with being analytical is confined to one side of the brain, and everything to do with being creative is confined to the opposite side, Anderson said. In fact, it is the connections among all brain regions that enable humans to engage in both creativity and analytical thinking.

"It is not the case that the left hemisphere is associated with logic or reasoning more than the right," Anderson told LiveScience. "Also, creativity is no more processed in the right hemisphere than the left."
--
http://www.livescience.com/39373-left-brain-right-brain-myth.html

Left Brain vs Right Brain - Understanding the Myth of Left Brain and Right Brain Dominance - Kendra Cherry
http://psychology.about.com/od/cognitivepsychology/a/left-brain-right-brain.htm

Left Brain – Right Brain Myth - Steven Novella
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/left-brain-right-brain-myth/

The Truth About The Left Brain / Right Brain Relationship - Tania Lombrozo
http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/12/02/248089436/the-truth-about-the-left-brain-right-brain-relationship

Despite what you've been told, you aren't 'left-brained' or 'right-brained' - Amy Novotney
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/16/left-right-brain-distinction-myth

[kpete]

32. Children MUST be taught

creative and analytical thinking.
How can anyone argue with that?

[greyl]

34. And gentle reminders about changing the subject, as well! nt

[Igel]

68. The brain is lateralized.

On average. To some extent.

But things are very much distributed, so even language and music are each on both sides. On average.

Then there are the people whose brains aren't average and where "lateralization" is much reduced, not because they're above average but simply because they're not average. (There's a difference.)

BTW, math and music, language and music, tend to be highly correlated. Even those who like science are often not bad at some "art".

[Renew Deal]

3. Intelligence doesn't measure knowing

[GummyBearz]

5. Eh?

"Thank god I am an art teacher (no such thing as a "wrong" answer), "

Tell that to my wife's beginning art teacher who would only give her D's and C's, despite her putting in great amount of effort (she just can't draw a smooth line to save her life)

[kpete]

9. exactly

those are teachers who KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE CREATIVE PROCESS

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

drawing a smooth line is meaningless

and certainly not gradable in art

[GummyBearz]

10. I agree

I had a good beginning art teacher. I also am very poor with drawing/painting. But my teacher was a good one... she saw the effort I put in, saw I studied for the history tests, saw I turned in everything, and I got an A and was pretty damn excited about art afterwards.

My wife on the other hand was just pissed off that her GPA got dragged down by beginning art, when she did all the same things I did... I honestly can't blame her for feeling that way.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

73. A lot of us have had a bad art teacher.

A teacher who says there is ONLY ONE WAY to do it right. I had one of those. Fortunately I had a good art teacher in junior high as well as a bad art teacher.

The good one taught everybody how to do an adequate oil pastel of a tree or a mountain scape or a waterfall that they could take home to mama and put on the wall. She also had "The Horse Fair" by Rosa Bonheur on her classroom wall and the dog on a pier called "A Distinguished Member of the Humane Society" by Sir Edwin Landseer.

When I was a kid, I could draw beautiful free-flowing cartoons. But the teachers wanted me to COLOR INSIDE THE LINES. When I grabbed a pencil, I automatically got a death grip and could not control it. So that is why I couldn't color at all in a coloring book.
But I could draw beautiful cartoons with a very animated line. They didn't care. It was all about conformity.

And I flunked Geometry and algebra II because the teacher would explain a problem twice and then say "YOU SHOULD KNOW HOW TO DO THIS". My parents couldn't help me. The A students refused to help me so I was screwed. I tried to pass algebra again two times in college and taking 3 hours of math for my degree became insurmountable.

I ended up in Linear Algebra. The professor's son's best friend was my boyfriend, so I convinced him to give me a C even though I only understood Cartesian coordinates and not the other two systems of matrices we studied during the semester. The boyfriend and the professor's son went off to graduate school at Carnegie-Mellon and M.I.T. in Computer Science. This was during the days of giant mainframe computers in the seventies.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

6. To all those C students

you could be President too .... s/d . .. W

[NCTraveler]

7. Very black and white thinking.

A 4.0 student can know more than a 2.0 student. Grades don't determine intelligence, "they test ambition."

"they test commitment."

"they test necessary knowledge in said field."

This can be written in so many ways that would actually make sense in the lives of different people.

[larksmaryland]

54. 4.0

i agree- a 4.0 at a reputable institution indicates at the very least, diligence and ambition

[MADem]

55. Well, that Banksey guy uses those colors a lot, so what else should we expect?

[taught_me_patience]

11. Oh please, grades test knowledge of the subject matter

and are primarily a function of ability and work.

I used to dismiss standardized tests until I took the GMAT and it became apparent to me what it was testing. Hint... it is not ability. NOBODY scores well without a lot of hard work and practice. Everyday for months, after work, I'd come home and grind out problems while my roomates would be watching TV. Schools want those kinds of students.

[hfojvt]

17. but they also show

who is obedient about learning what some administration decides is the "subject matter".

Hobbes: Is ignorance really a right?

Calvin: I don't know and I refuse to find out!

another toon

Calvin: There's a snake. I wonder if it is poisonous.

Hobbes: Maybe there's a book where we can read about snakes.

Calvin: But it's summer, I don't want to learn stuff.

Hobbes: Learning doesn't count if it's fun.

Hobbes and Calvin looking at a book about snakes: coooool

[Buzz Clik]

44. (bingo)

[MaggieD]

12. Well Bush certainly convinced people of that

LOL!

[kpete]

14. the final insult

sigh

[haele]

15. Most grading in K-12 is subject to metrics bias.

It's not just dependent on if you know the subject., it's also dependent on whatever standards the teacher uses to measure student progress on, - the counting of the grades of the classwork and homework, whether or not they come to class on time. Those metrics are the easiest - and least accurate - determination on whether or not the child actually understands the subject, or if they have good enough short-term memory and are disciplined enough to follow the rules the teacher laid down for the subject.
How the student learns, if there's something going on at home that's distracting the learning process, if the student knows but doesn't care, is bored, distracted, or on the fringes of either being below or above grade level...those can't be quantified and weighed against the other metrics.

I was a borderline 3.0 student in middle school and high school that understood and could do work at the college level - well, except for Math, which I couldn't get the hang of because of the way it's usually taught to kids.
The librarians loved me. I knew where all the books should go, and read pretty much all of them.
The teachers loved me - and hated me, because while I could ace the tests, and in class I could prove through discussion that not only did I know the subject matter, I understood it at a higher than grade level, I hated homework and almost never finished the semester projects unless it was something kinetic that I was interested in doing. The 4.0 students were typically not smarter than me.

My father was a History adjunct at a Jr. College and my mom was getting her master's in Anthropology so I was reading their books when I was bored at night from the ages of 12 - 16 (no TV at home). I could give a lecture on the Reformation to my World History class in 10th grade, if I wanted to. I had lots of friends whenever it was test time, or when projects were due, because all the 4.0 students I knew would come around and ask questions or ask me to look something over (as long as it wasn't a Math question...) Even in Physics and Chemistry, I was being asked questions, or the smart kids wanted me as their table mates.

But...I was just a "not so smart" average kid, because I was just pulling a 3.0 average if you looked at the classes where tests or actual class participation weren't the majority of the grades (which were most of them). 4.0 in Music, though.

Metrics Bias at work.

I was bored. And when I broke my hand in 11th grade and developed arthritis, it screwed my music scholarships - which were pretty much the only option I had other than Community college to leave home and not be facing a life of retail until I could get my life together.

So I almost failed, and joined the Navy because I didn't have the grades for a scholarship UW or any of the other major universities or colleges in the area.

Haele

[kpete]

16. thank you

you represent a large percentage of students

boredom is often a factor, especially for the more creative mind (mho)

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Not Shocking Right?

All of us that went to college, and especially grad school, knew who the "test takers" were. They got A's all the time, even on weeklies, but then come mid-terms or finals, they were cramming?

I never understood how they couldn't know the stuff by the end of the term if they got A's on every test.

But, what they are good at is cramming and taking tests. There's some element of talent in that alone. But, that didn't mean there weren't other A students who got the occasional B on a weekly that didn't have to cram at mid or end of term, because they actually absorbed more.

I know my experience is not universal, but i'm also sure it's not unique. I for one NEVER crammed for exams. I was supposed to know that stuff by finals.

So, i think it's pretty clear that for a very long time (i'm in my late 50's) some people were better at absorbing and grasping the material, and some people were really good at taking tests.

[kpete]

24. what they are good at is cramming and taking tests.

THAT is the key take-away

thanks & peace,
kp

[ProfessorGAC]

28. I Agree

Just pointing out that i believe this because i saw it myself, from the cheap seats to the front of the classroom.

[GoCubsGo]

70. Yep. And, it also depends on the type of tests given.

Multiple choice vs. essays vs. fill-in-the-blank.,,

[Laura PourMeADrink]

21. i totally agree with this statement - not for all but for a significant

segment

Some achieve 4.0, by being over-stressed uptight memorizers.

And, have 0.0 understanding and ability to think for themselves in any
intellectual manner.

[mcar]

22. My son graduates from high school tomorrow

With. 2.75 unweighted GPA. Yet he passed all three AP exams, one with a 5 (highest score) and will enter college as a second semester freshman.

He is classified as gifted and never did fit into the busy work and standardized test mode so reviled here in Florida. He is a talented musician and that is his whole focus.

I am very proud of him.

[kpete]

26. and you SHOULD BE

BRAVO!!!

[mcar]

56. Thanks kpete

[Dr Hobbitstein]

29. I'm from Florida...

When I was in high school (late 90s, the class behind me was the first one to take the FCAT, I just had to take the HSCT), I was also in gifted, and had a C average at best. Musician as well. I went to college and was an A student all the way through, but I was much more mentally engaged than in FL high schools.

[mcar]

52. I'm hoping my son finds college courses more interesting

Boredom was the biggest issue in HS - and the over reliance on testing.

He hopes to transfer to a music conservatory in a year or two. His goal is a Ph.D. in percussion.

[FLPanhandle]

25. If you had to bet the house on which one is smarter

I'd bet on the 4.0 student. I might be wrong, but the odds are I'd be right.

[cyberswede]

27. LOL

Uh huh. The ability to learn differs among different people, obedient or not.

[aikoaiko]

31. I don't think BanksY knows anything about intelligence.

Knowing things is not what intelligence is about.


And probabilistically 4.0 students generally know more than 2.0 students, but I am sure that somewhere in the universe the opposite can be found.

[kpete]

33. what banksy said, one more time:

A 2.0 student can know more than a 4.0 student

as you say too:
I am sure that somewhere in the universe the opposite can be found.


ying/yang
& once again i can feel balance in the universe

[Buzz Clik]

35. I wonder if textbooks are available on Twitter.

[Bonx]

39. "I'll take the 2.0 Doctor for my surgery"

said no one ever.

[Buzz Clik]

41. LOL!

[kpete]

48. nor the 4.0 doc

that was great chair side - but hideous surgeon

botched hysterectomy
closest i have come to death

lost his licence

no tactile ability
how do you grade that by the way?

[GoCubsGo]

72. He was probably one of my classmates as a pre-med.

Most of my fellow biology majors were pre-med and pre-dental. There were a lot of smart people in that bunch. But, there also were a lot of them who got their 4.0 GPAs by doing things like breaking into the professor's office and stealing the final exam. Or, by moving the pins on the lab practical, so that everyone who came after you got it wrong--on an exam that was graded on a curve. Or, swiping some of the specimens your classmates identified for a required collection, after THEY identified them, and adding them to your own collection. 4.0 GPAs are not always come by honestly. This kind of shit probably happens more often than not.

[FLPanhandle]

58. LOL

[LeftinOH]

40. Some people are very good at the "going to school" routine.

Rules; homework; tests; quizes; papers; repeat, etc. Other people are not so good at the "going to school" routine. "Going to school" IS a vaild skill set for a future career for some people (academia or research), but not for most. If I eliminated all the wasted time and useless instruction I "learned" in 4 years of high school, it would have lasted only about 16 months. One might even say the same for college.

[Buzz Clik]

42. Opportunities are wasted all the time.

But, there is no question that higher education is not for everyone.

[kpete]

49. my son

would agree

[mythology]

50. If you had that much useless instruction in college

You were doing it wrong.

Having a bad professor happens, but even in the worst class I had, taught by somebody who was incompetent at both teaching and in the research aspects, I still found things to learn on the subject through my own readings/research but also through discussions with my classmates.

[moondust]

63. +1

These days perhaps also a test of one's innate greed and aggression considering only students at the very top of the class are likely to end up in well-paying jobs. Maybe the system has actually been shaped over the past few decades to identify and reward the natural-born psychopaths destined for corporate boardrooms.

[gollygee]

51. They partly test intelligence

and partly determination, desire to learn, memory skills, obedience, similarity in communication style to teacher, confidence level, number of hours slept, diet, etc.

[MADem]

53. The first part is accurate. The second part, not so much.

Grades test ability to remember information, to memorize, to problem solve, as well as to follow instructions. They also test for an absence of dyslexia or other learning differences.

They do not necessarily test for intelligence, but they can, at times. They do not test "obedience." Disobedient children can do brilliantly on tests--if they are motivated to so do.

And yes, 2.0 students can know a LOT more than 4.0 students. Even OBEDIENT 2.0 students can know more than 4.0 students.

People learn in different ways. Formal education is a great fit for some -- but not all. There's nothing "wrong" with it, and there's nothing "wrong" with those who learn a different way.

I think the key--from eight to eighty, and beyond, is to keep learning.

[Major Nikon]

57. If they refuse to demonstrate ability it doesn't really matter anyway

[LittleBlue]

64. Fantastic, spread the message

My kids will have less competition for college and good jobs.

[hifiguy]

65. Personally, I'd rather have the surgeon who excelled in medical school.

But as the old joke goes, "What do they call the guy who graduated last in his med school class? Doctor."

And given my personal experience and observations of seven years of college and grad school, generally the higher achievers are smarter. But you can get good grades by being an excellent parrot, precisely repeating back to your professors exactly what they told you. I didn't do that.

[AZ Progressive]

66. You have to admit that society does punish disobedience

The employment system virtually imposes obedience and discipline. You'd be shut out of a good job (or a job at all) if you don't obey (it takes good grades to go to a good college, which leads to higher earning potential.) If you don't want to obey, your on your own. You'd need to be an entrepreneur or something (which also takes a lot of self discipline.)

[Starry Messenger]

67. I'm an art teacher too, kpete

Ceramics. I was a poor student in math, with an unaddressed disability, I think.

I hate today's testing culture, and I'm glad we art teachers are there to teach the things the tests miss. Sharing, cooperation, creative thinking, hand skills and even how to use a ruler, which is evidently not taught anymore.

The "elders" on this thread may hearken back to the day when they got a well-rounded education and not realize how much has been eliminated in the NCLB program of only concentrating on the math and reading scores.

School is much different now...kids are just goal-oriented and if they can't just get "the answer," it can be very hard to engage them. The arts help with breaking through that.

[LWolf]

69. Okay.

With a point: intelligence is not the same thing as knowing things.

[Shoulders of Giants]

71. I graduated with a 3.95 GPA

It doesn't mean I'm smarter than anyone. I have Asperger's and felt I needed any advantage I could to get to get a job after getting out of college to overcome discrimination. So I spent 70-80 hours a week on school and studied dozens of hours for each test. I also took unpaid internships. I felt I needed to, to have any chance of landing a job, and it worked. I don't think that makes me smarter than anyone. It just meant I had a very high tolerance for forcing myself to memorize meaningless facts for hours on end(that I immediately forgot after the semester was over and never used on the job.) You're right, in this case it tested obedience and not intelligence.

[GeorgeGist]

74. So Bush knew more than Obama?