I really can't comprehend armies fleeing. Ultimate cowardice.

[alphafemale]

You defend. You may die.

But you don't run like pissing puppies and leave the weapons that are going to slaughter the citizens you swore to defend.

[alphafemale]

2. These squirrels don't even seem to try.

Or at least destroy the equipment.

Yes I would die in place.

It is engraved in my fucking nature.

I do not fucking run.

Never fucking have.

[Scootaloo]

4. Go prove it. I'm sure they wouldn't turn down such a steadfast recruit.

[alphafemale]

5. ....please don't hurt me.

What a joke.

[sammythecat]

33. Do you say things like this to people often?

[Codeine]

35. Oh good grief.

Go ahead and tell us all about those times you've steadfastly faced down death, courageous in the face of overwhelming odds.

[phil89]

59. Your priorities are scary.

probably shamed the moral people who avoided going to Vietnam as well.

[panader0]

70. What are you fighting for?

I think many of those you despair don't know which way is up or down.

[ileus]

86. What is your EDC?

[RedCappedBandit]

92. And what situations have you ever been in where this was even a question?

Please do share.


lol.

[phil89]

101. I was smart enough to avoid situations where I may have to kill people.

Not sure why that's mystifying to you. "Lol" indeed.

[RedCappedBandit]

115. Who are you and what makes you think I'm at all mystified by your behavior? nt

[Sherman A1]

3. Every situation is different

and I will not judge as I am not in their shoes.

[reddread]

6. who are you talkin about?

At least we know how to contend with that sort of fighter.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/15/world/us-army-buried-iraqi-soldiers-alive-in-gulf-war.html

[Fumesucker]

7. Maybe those troops know their own leaders and their own situation better than you

Bear in mind a lot of the officers are horribly corrupt and are selling both materiel and intelligence to the enemy.

When your own leaders aren't really on your side it's much more difficult to sacrifice yourself for them.

[malaise]

8. I can't comprehend any one joining an army n/t

[akbacchus_BC]

18. Wow, most people would not join the army!

The army recruits young people and offer them good promises and once they join, it is a different ball game. Young people see the army as a way of getting a good education, am sure they did not sign up to get blown away in a foreign country. I may be wrong but you seem to be an expert. Looking forward to you educating me!

[valerief]

29. +1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. How about the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

[Human101948]

9. 50,000 American troops deserted in the European theater in WWII

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332814/The-wartime-TRUTH-Army-tried-hide-How-gangs-U-S-deserters-terrorized-WWII-Paris-reign-mob-style-violence.html

[Jesus Malverde]

10. "he who fight and run away, lives to fight another day"

[AngryAmish]

14. You do not understsnd these people or that part of the world

The nation-state does not apply to them. Sure they have some of the formalities and even send some people to the UN and Davos, but their society is based on their tribe. Edward Said's Orientalism and anticolonial studies have blinded generations of western citizens to basic facts about different civilizations. The idea of soldiers, standing and fighting, protecting citizens, monopoly of power in the state, etc...all western ideas and they don't accept this in the middle east (outside Isreal).

Do you know that most "Iraqis" (as if such a thing exists) marry their first or second cousins? Such practices breed insularity which is alien in the west, where cousin marriage has been outlawed by the church since the 400s. Monopoly of power in the state only came about since the end of the 30 Years War. The rest of the world plays by diffetent rules . China is different than India is different than Argentina is different than the Middle East.

[akbacchus_BC]

20. You are forgetting that kings and queens married first cousins in Europe!

I do not agree with first cousins marrying each other but some cultures see no problem with that. I sure as shit could not marry my first cousin, it is tantamount to marrying your brother.

[StevieM]

62. I agree it something I could never picture doing. My brother, sister and I were really close to our

first cousins growing up. We had 5 of them and the 8 of us hung out all the time, since we lived fairly close to one another. We have stayed close well into adulthood. I am currently 40 and still see them a few times a year.

I suppose I could marry a 4th cousin--someone whose great grandparent was 1st cousins with my great grandparent.

[akbacchus_BC]

110. I understand what you are saying but once there is

a bloodline, marriage is a no no in my culture. I understand that Muslims are allowed to marry first cousins and am thinking, that is crazy. I am from a big family on my dad and mother side, we are still in contact most of the time. The thing is, once the person is a family, that attraction never exists. At least, that is my opinion. To give another example, my sister's husband is a brother and I cannot understand how a relative could get attracted to an in-law!

[akbacchus_BC]

15. The media do not really report the true story!

Members of the army are humans too and if they feel they are outnumbered, I prefer them to flee rather than be killed. They did not sign up to be killed. Just my opinion.

[RandiFan1290]

19. So many brave warriors on the internets!

[Divernan]

51. Dooziest of the Doozies! Maybe AlphaFemale forgot her sarcasm icon?

[etherealtruth]

87. Astoundingly accurate

[Katashi_itto]

21. As a vet, this has got to be one of the more pompous statements I've seen on DU.

Oh mighty armchair warrior.

[rjsquirrel]

22. "To no man . . .

. . . does the earth mean so much as to the soldier. When he presses himself down upon her long and powerfully, when he buries his face and his limbs deep in her from the fear of death by shell-fire, then she is his only friend, his brother, his mother; he stifles his terror and his cries in her silence and her security; she shelters him and releases him for ten seconds to live, to run, ten seconds of life; receives him again and again and often forever."

Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front

[cwydro]

24. A truly great book.

I've read it numerous times.

I recommend Fear by Gabriel Chevallier. It's even more hard-hitting than All Quiet. It was banned in France at one point because they were afraid no one would ever want to join the army.

[KingCharlemagne]

48. I recommend "Going After Cacciato" and "Catch 22". In the former, a soldier in combat dies

of fright, in the latter a mortally wounded aviator bleeds out in the protagonist's arms.

Also, Stephen Crane's Red Badge of Courage sort of sets the baseline for the violence of war (in this case, the U.S. Civil War).

[cwydro]

50. I've read the Red Badge of Courage

and Catch-22.

Will check out the other.

Fear is the most powerful book I've ever read.

It's not pleasant. But it's a great book.

[TM99]

81. Add Johnny Got His Gun to that list

as well.

Catch 22 and All Quiet are two of my favorites. The Razor's Edge also gets the point across about war being hell as well.

[DustyJoe]

104. Only those that have lived it

When under fire and hugging the earth as the quote above describes
the Infantrymans lament has always been that

My freaking uniform buttons are too thick holding my body up too high.

[lostnfound]

23. "I really can't understand..." It's good to recognize one's own weaknesses.

I find that reading a whole lot of fiction over the years has helped me understand that there's all kinds of human beings in the world and all kinds of motivations.

The world includes -
Scared young men that want to actually live before they die...
People who enlist because they have nothing else to do..
Kamikazes that are willing to go on suicide missions for the sake of "honor"..
People who recognize the futility of dying for a lost cause..
People who recognize the benefit of living and regrouping to fight another day..
People who fight in one part of the country who left behind obligations to family in another part of the country, who made solemn promises to little kids that they would be coming home..
People who genuinely believe they can do more good by living than by dying.

Courage in the face of hopeless odds might be a virtue or it might be a sign of counterproductive insanity depending on the circumstances.

[valerief]

30. Don't forget the heartless assholes who exploit them all for their own gain. nt

[WinkyDink]

25. Well, see, it isn't like the old days, with POW camps. It's being caught and BEHEADED.

[cwydro]

27. Or being placed in a cage

and set on fire.

[hobbit709]

26. Just because you're in an army doesn't necessarily give you a reason to fight and die.

Ask any draftee in an unpopular cause.

[1939]

89. Draftees make pretty good soldiers

They are usually older and more mature than the enlistees.

The reason most men will stay and fight is that they don't want to let their buddies down. National interest, the "cause", the "mission" don't have near as much meaning for a combat soldier as his peer group which he is a part of.

[NuclearDem]

28. This is a joke, right?

[TheKentuckian]

31. I suspect the IP watches too many movies and has faced few, if any actual threats to life and limb

[99Forever]

32. Pretty fucking easy to post tough talk on the net.

And you do it so well.

[Codeine]

36. Everyone is a hardcore badass on The Electronic Arguing Machine.

It is to laugh.

[AgingAmerican]

34. Hitler didn't allow his armies to retreat in the east

...and they were slaughtered wholesale.

[1939]

90. How many dead Russians did it take to slaughter one German?

The Russians paid dearly because the German soldiers were very expensive to kill. The US and Brits paid dearly for every German soldier that they killed. The Germn army conscripts maintained unit cohesion right up to the bitter end. Very few of them were rabid Nazis.

[Codeine]

37. Oh shit!

?1321408042

[JaneyVee]

39. If they aren't willing to defend their own country, then...

We sure as hell shouldn't send troops to defend their country.

[eissa]

41. I guess I'm the only one who agrees

Yes, I understand the justifiable fear of the combatants. But they signed up and those civilians they vowed to protect were relying on them to do just that. Instead, the most vulnerable in that region -- mainly women and minorities -- watched in horror as those who were supposed to protect them dropped everything and ran, leaving them at the mercy of these monsters. Now, countless women are being held by these animals as sex slaves, while others were brutally murdered.

[StevieM]

63. I see what you are saying.

The problem is that the Iraqi army is in it for the paycheck only. They don't care about these Sunni Tribal communities. They give a cut of their salary to their commanding officer and they get out of fighting, but keep their jobs.

The soldiers need to be fired and their jobs--along with their salaries--given to local Sunnis. But that isn't the nature of how Iraq works. The money is all supposed to trickle up to through the ranks of the leadership--the Shiite leadership.

A government like this one needs to be allowed to fall. Then again, there were things we could have done in the beginning which might have somewhat minimized this type of problem. The war may have be wrong, but that doesn't mean that it inevitably had to be this big of a disaster. But what do you expect when 24 year old Americans kids were being given powerful positions in Iraq based on their anti-choice credentials?

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Happy Memorial Day. What was your draft number? n/t

[alphafemale]

43. All I will further say on this is that people unwilling to defend themselves?

Should not get another dime or drop of blood from us.

[edgineered]

53. People pile on, not as if this is a discussion board.

Your post and the reaction to it illustrate precisely one of the major flaws here. Sometimes it seems that if the poster is not a world authority on the subject, or in lock step with the feelings of the majority, having an opinion and posting it is unacceptable.

I am glad that you said what you did; anyone who can deny having weighed that possibility, either today or at some earlier point in their life, may be dishonest in saying so. Not that I agree with you, but it is a thought worthy of discussion and not scorn.

[sarisataka]

57. Many topics are worthy of discussion

the competence of the Iraqi army is surely one of them.

Yet if a person comes in making blanket condemnations, as if they were a world authority on a subject they clearly have no knowledge, about how easy it is to face death and danger they are going to receive scorn.

Had the OP asked- I can't comprehend, how could an army do this?- the conversation would have gone differently.

[edgineered]

61. Looked again, but still couldn't find

any offers to discuss the OP. Granted that many here have background in military, law enforcement, or community services and are better aware of the up and down heirarchy of commands, mission first, equipment second, personnel third. And although that works well in concept, so does the concept of giving one's name, rank, and serial number only when captured. IRL though things are a bit different, and don't apply to this thread.

Sometimes one (not you) looks more like a sanctimonius ass in trying to prove another wrong than, if instead, learning the viewpoint from which the poster was making such a statement.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. That's how posters on the internet roll, unfortunately...

In real life you are a lot more responsible for your words. Folks don't talk to each other in real life, especially those they disagree with, the way they do on this board. It would literally be hazardous to their health.

In the current instance I don't blame the soldiers who fled as much as those that trained them and put them in the field.

[joshcryer]

77. The war criminal Bush created that mess.

They shouldn't have to face unrelenting odds, they should retreat, regroup, and counter, which is precisely what they're doing.

[MohRokTah]

44. Ever hear of Kasserin Pass?

The United States Army, in the first big battle against the Germans in World War II, FLED!

The leadership sucked and they were inexperienced.

So put on your uniform, fly to Iraq, and YOU take on the ISIS veterans.

[BillZBubb]

79. How dare you! Americans don't FLEE!

It was an impromptu redeployment.

[sarisataka]

45. I thought of writing a reply

About courage vs cowardice vs pragmatism in a combat situation supported with first hand examples of facing Iraqis in combat and interviewing them afterwards.

But then I realized your combat experience is approximately equivalent to zero.

To explain it to you would be as futile as explaining sex to a virgin using a porn movie that has been edited for tv as an aid. Your frame of reference is so far removed from the actuality that it would only result in greater misunderstanding.

[Oktober]

46. Ahh... the Hitler invading Russia strategy...

I don't care what you do as long as you die in place...

Worked great for him as well...

[StevieM]

64. Hitler was totally incompetent when it came to the invasion of Russia.

He didn't listen to his generals and missed his opportunity to win the war early on. He should have taken Moscow early. The were within 20 miles of the Kremlin. But he wanted to seize as much Russian territory and economic resources as possible. So he didn't focus as much on that part of the operation as he should have. Then the Russian Winter set in.

Hitler made all sorts of stupid decisions, much worse than the ones other leaders sometimes make. His idiocy played a large role in Germany's defeat. There is a myth that Hitler was an evil genius. In actuality, he was just evil.

[DanTex]

76. I agree. Actually, I think his big mistake was going to war against Russia in the first place.

If he had kept the deal with Stalin, he probably could have held Western Europe without much trouble.

[StevieM]

80. That's an interesting point. A good argument can be made that he should have first finished off

Great Britain before turning his attention to Russia. Many generals wanted to do that as well.

Still, I think the war against the Soviet Union could have been won early on had it not been for the incompetent strategy that Hitler insisted upon.

If he had taken Russia out early then it is interesting to think about what might have happened. What if Hitler could have effectively ended the American embargo against Japan? Might they have refrained from attacking us, at least at the point when they did? What if Hitler had finished off Russia and then taken out Britain over the Summer of 1942? What if war with Japan and Germany had come in December 1942 instead of December 1941, with Britain and the Soviet Union already defeated? What if they had the ability to attack Alaska from Siberia?

Could they have then defeated the United States? Could they have won the war before the U.S. got the bomb? Would America have taken longer to develop the bomb if our entry into the War had also been delayed?

[DanTex]

88. It's a bit of a shame that actual historians mostly consider it unscholarly and unprofessional to

engage in "what if" speculation. I can understand why that is, but still I find these kinds of questions fascinating.

[Lurks Often]

97. To finish off Great Britain would have required an invasion Germany was incapable of performing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion There was never a point during the war where the Germany navy could have invaded England.

In December of 1942, the United States military, especially the Navy would have been far stronger then it was when Pearl Harbor was attacked. The US was very un-prepared for WWII and it wasn't until August of 1942 before we could go on the offensive in the Pacific (Guadalcanal) and November of 1942 (the invasion of French North Africa) in Europe.

As to the rest, unlikely, both Russia and Great Britain had plans to re-locate in case of defeat, Russia behind the Ural mountains and the Great Britain moving the government to Canada.

British India with the British Indian army (an all volunteer military that contributed over 1 million men) and the other Commonwealth nations (New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and some of the African countries) and the country of Nepal all of which contributed much of the manpower to fight in Italy, North Africa, the Middle East and the Burma theater were all still available as well.

The logistics to invade Alaska or the continental United States would have been well beyond the capabilities of Germany and Japan, especially in the face of opposition from the US Navy.

[StevieM]

100. A big K&R for your post!! I really enjoyed reading about the historical situations you described.

I had always thought that the U.S. began a major rearming in 1940 and was relatively well-prepared by December 1941, or at least as prepared as they were ever going to be prior to outright entering the War.

You don't think that the Soviet Union could have been crushed early had it not been for Hitler's repeated incompetent interference with the military decision-making?

I was never really sure how an invasion of Alaska from Siberia (if it was German occupied) across the Bering Strait would work.

[Lurks Often]

112. Regarding Russia, probably not

Russia had lots of land to trade for time and the more land they traded for time, the shorter their supply liones got. In contrast the more ground Germany gained, the longer their supply lines got. Combined with the severe Russian winters and long supply lines, sooner or later the German army would have out run their supplies.

Also, despite the current perception that the German army was heavily motorized and mechinized, that wasn't true. The German army relied heavily on horses in most of their infantry divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II#Germany

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. A quote from our hand-to-hand/bayonet instructor in the marines.

After showing us how to gouge out eyes, rip off cheeks, bite off ears, etc.

"If you ever get into that kind of situation remember to use your feet. Run like a stripey assed zebra."

[DashOneBravo]

74. Interesting

Ours said, "If you're fighting hand to hand someone fucked up"

[Divernan]

54. She's a regular Monty Python black knight

Tis but a scratch. What a joke- and an insulting one at that.

[Cleita]

55. Sounds like good sense to me. Then you live to fight another day.

Most armies do retreat when they see they can't win. It isn't cowardice. Russia destroyed Germany in WWII because Hitler wouldn't let the Germans retreat, so they were slaughtered. Needing more men to replace the dead ones resulted in teen aged boys as young as thirteen recruited to replace them. The rest is history. War sucks, but there is a game plan that needs to be followed, and sometimes that can be retreat or surrender for the losing side.

[joshcryer]

66. They've begun the counter already.

[workinclasszero]

58. Really?

Ever been under artillery attack for days? Ever faced an insane enemy that gives no quarter and will surely torture you to death and or behead you?

Yeah didn't think so.

[jwirr]

60. I doubt that there has ever been an army that did not retreat at some point or other.

[joshcryer]

65. Don't let MSM propaganda get to you.

Strategic withdrawals are common in war. And wise when the enemy doesn't fear death.

[raccoon]

67. And when have you ever faced an enemy army, oh great brave one? nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

68. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bladensburg

[brooklynite]

69. Do you know that the Syrian Army "swore to defend" anyone except Assad?

I suspect these were conscripts. Add to that, the BBC reports that the Army sent helicopters in to evacuate the Generals and left the soldiers to fend for themselves.

[reddread]

73. Army kid on the bus today mentioned his buddy who has gone silent

in syria fighting, might well be dead.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

71. I'm gonna guess that after we devasted their country, ruined their infrastructure, and basically

left the whole region in chaos, a whole lot of people with no real interest in fighting battles signed up simply for food in their stomachs, clothes on their back, a roof over their head, and maybe some money to help keep their families alive.

[spanone]

72. if they're coming over the hill to take your head? you might shimmy your ass in the other direction

[DashOneBravo]

75. Ft Benning

The first female class just attempted Ranger School and USMC Infantry Officers Course. None of them made it.

But every one of them rucked up and volunteered. That's an AlphaFemale in my book.

Feel free to volunteer anytime

[historylovr]

108. I haven't heard that term in forever.

Do you know how far into training they got? I heard about Ranger School, and I wouldn't have tried it if they'd opened it to females back then; Basic was tough enough for me. Kudos to these women for trying!

[BillZBubb]

78. Read some military history, then you may understand it.

In the case of the Iraq military they've got corrupt politicians and corrupt officers permeating the system. Incompetence is not an impediment to promotion. The troops know their leadership is a joke. Plus, the troops are poorly trained and their is a lack of discipline. Each of those factors is in itself enough to expect an army to fail to hold their ground. When you get them all together it is a recipe for disaster.

America has seen this before. Remember ARVN? Same set of poor military and political conditions. Same result. An army collapsing isn't cowardice--it is a failure of the political and military leadership.

[malthaussen]

82. You've obviously never read Montesquieu.

"A rational army would run away."

-- Mal

[TheSarcastinator]

84. your headline would be more accurate

if it was just the first four words.

There seem to be a lot of things you do not truly comprehend, including the true meanings of terms like "bravery" and "cowardice".

[Katashi_itto]

85. DUzy~!

[Nye Bevan]

91. You don't think Washington, Grant or Eisenhower ever executed a strategic retreat?

And Dunkirk disgusts you?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

93. I knew I had heard this sort of shit somewhere before

?t=37s

[MineralMan]

94. Let's You and Him Fight, Eh?

Retreating is a strategic thing, usually. In a situation where your forces will be killed en masse, a retreat is often the best solution. You leave the scene of battle, regroup and come up with a strategy that will produce a better result.

Clearly, you don't understand how all of this works. I'm guessing you have never been in any sort of warlike situation.

Those who die in battle will not fight again.

[Comrade Grumpy]

95. The Iraqi Army has been a disgrace. I read 200 ISIS fighters drove them out of Ramadi.

Sorry you're taking so much shit for your OP from all the macho men.

[leeroysphitz]

96. lol 9/10

[cwydro]

98. I usually like your posts.

Not sure about this one.

I entreat you to read any WW1 books or poems by Siegfried Sassoon, Rupert Brooke, et. al.

Please google the horror of that war. Or you can google the horror of any of the wars.

[Rex]

99. Meh...I've seen better drive by OPs.

I give this one a 7 out of 10 stirs.

[alphafemale]

102. If you think you think I give an ever loving fuck about your opinions.....

Oh well.


LOL

[Logical]

114. LOL, you just replied to yourself. Classic! nt

[alphafemale]

103. Now. How many attackers in this thread are also against Net Bullying or whatever you call it.

Maybe this was my opinion or not.

I was attacked for saying it.

I really don't give a shit.

I am not going to weep because someone strongly disagrees with me with typing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. My apologies if you feel I bullied you

I will remove the post now (assuming I can find it) And both of them.

[alphafemale]

106. I DO NOT FEEL BULLIED!!!

Please for the love of all that is holy do NOT REMOVE YOUR OPINION!

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. I have and that is that.

[Maedhros]

109. Go immerse yourself in a war zone, then you'll comprehend. [n/t]

[BainsBane]

111. Malaki purged the Iraqi army of Sunnis

who were the trained generals under Saddam. They then joined ISIS, which is far more skilled militarily than the Iraqi army.

[Logical]

113. LOL, so easy for you to say! People like you crack me up. nt

[Gloria]

116. Not according to the BBC...reporter said it was a "STUPID" mistake ...the

Iraqi commander decided to leave because he had gotten inaccurate reports on the size of the ISIS forces. He thought they were overwheming so he decided
to leave the city.

The reporter is an older man who has been there awhile. I'm sorry I can't remember his name. He did actually end the report by saying it wasn't cowardice but just a stupid mistake.

Let's see what happens next....

Ash Carter's accusation now seems even stupider at this point.

I also heard a discussion about how the media doesn't really report on the successes but are pushing every ISIS action to drive up the fear factor. Apparently, Iraqi
forces have retaken the other city, starts with a B, and you don't hear about it. (Sorry about that, Be??? it's north of Baghdad...Ramadi, Baghdad, and this city B, sort of form a triangle on the map.)