Bernie offers false hope and fails to address the real problem for the college bound.

[CK_John]

The real problem for the next 50yrs is how do we adjust society to not having a job, because of productivity the real problem.

Productivity is a buzz word for technology replacing a warm body. Wakeup and pay attention. There will not be enough jobs for the population.

Currently we have a 50% rate of college graduates being unemployed or underemployed, which hints at the real need for 1/2 colleges to exist.

Bernie is throwing out free tuition which solves nothing if there are not enough jobs now and will not be getting any better.

What is the solution? No one knows but unless we have politicians who face the real problems we never will.

[MelungeonWoman]

1. The REAL PROBLEM being...

How to get more money out of what's left of the middle class and into the hands of the wealthy.

[deutsey]

2. +1

[CK_John]

4. Society without jobs is the problem.

[HereSince1628]

18. Consumers with no money means no profit regardless of potential productivity

Without profit there is no incentive for people to buy robots/automation to produce.

There is a foreseeable impossibility in all this.

How it will work out is uncertain. It will be revolutionary one way or the other.

I'm glad to know I will not be available for that conflict.

[daleanime]

26. And teaching isn't a real job.....

and people in school don't make the labor pool a little less crowded? And some one with an education isn't more likely to begin their own business, etc, etc.....




And anything that doesn't solve all our problems at once isn't worth doing?

[Vattel]

81. a little harshly sarcastic but spot on.

[daleanime]

86. Sorry.....

I get a little worked up on the subject.

[AgingAmerican]

70. Gloom and doom is the problem

...because it drives the country further to the right.

[GoneFishin]

60. "You should not vote for Bernie because .... hey, look, a squirrel!"

[AgingAmerican]

72. ...

[cantbeserious]

3. Maybe Killing Bad Trade Deals Is A Start - Seems Bernie Is For No Bad Trade Deals

eom

[CK_John]

5. Maybe buying and selling robots by robots is not a solution.

[cantbeserious]

8. And What Does That Have To Do With Bernie

eom

[CK_John]

13. Throwing out solutions such as free tuition which has no chance of getting passed in any current

Congress and will solve nothing.

[cantbeserious]

16. And How Do You Propose To Reverse The Use Of Robots Given That The

Oligarchs, Corporations and Banks Own and Control the Means and Methods of Manufacturing.

[CK_John]

23. There no way to stop robots.

[cantbeserious]

24. So - There You Have It - This Has Nothing To Do With Bernie

eom

[KingCharlemagne]

46. Boom - Owned and served. My compliments on an effective

refutation that uses rhetorical martial arts to demolish your opponent in toto.

[SalviaBlue]

25. Nice way to stop a debate.

[Pooka Fey]

67. What about cutting off their power supply? nt

[Eleanors38]

37. Didn't the majestic and mysterious state of Tennessee eliminate com. coll tuition?

[Sissyk]

80. Yes, the mysterious State of Tennessee did that.

I don't know what they hey the repubs were thinking. Sleep thinking, maybe.

[cascadiance]

57. So India gets nothing from giving their kids FREE Bachelors degree education?

When Banagalore has been allowed to take over world tech leadership from Silicon Valley by the CORRUPT group of politicians in Washington that only look to fatten the wealthy's wallets that BUY THEM, instead of keeping our jobs here when they sign these F'd up trade deals, and pass more indentured servant "guest worker" program expansion programs like H-1B and H-2B that take away more jobs from Americans, and subsequently has us either stop buying stuff here and building our economy, or just buying stuff on debt here which builds the bubble bigger here before it collapses.

And many other developed world countries treat treat their students to better education than we do. Instead, we pay less money to our universities, and expect the students to pick up more debt instead in recent years, and have our government make more money on student debt interest than the interest we get for loans made to banks through the federal reserve.

[AgingAmerican]

73. Good policy will solve nothing!

Lets just take your advise, and throw in the towel, and sulk in the right wing corner.

[99Forever]

6. ...

[merrily]

9. I know, right?

[99Forever]

19. Sounds like Surrender Monkey whining to me. n/t

[merrily]

7. Have you complained about Obama and Hillary doing similar things?

Not many people would diss a politician for offering free college or, as Obama did, free junior college. (Hillary was more vague, but promised education that was as free as possible.)

None of them claimed that affordable or free education would be a solution to all of our problems. Moreover, lack of jobs has not been stopping kids from incurring over $100,000 debt before they graduate college and therefore starting life behind the 8 ball.

[Duckhunter935]

10. some are very

selective

[merrily]

14. IMO, the OP seems desperate to find fault with Bernie.

If free college education is anyone's biggest complaint about Bernie, I fear for the Republic: people are likely to make Bernie emperor.

[MelungeonWoman]

21. When Bernie first announced...

He was polling at 10 to 13%. The latest PPP poll has him at 24%, we are quickly moving out of the 'first they ignore you' stage.

[merrily]

36. He hasn't even formally announced yet. That's May 26.

No matter what, I think America needs to hear what he has to say. That's why I will never regret my donations to Bernie. Which reminds me: I've made only one so far, before his informal announcment. I guess I'll schedule my second for May 27.

[Duckhunter935]

41. Yep

I ussually do not donate and my lasts ones were for President Obama. Bernie will get some from me.

[merrily]

50. Thank you for your service.

[DCBob]

76. I believe that was a Washington state poll.

His latest national polling numbers were in the low teens.

[PowerToThePeople]

11. 30 hour work week, maybe less?

If that is all the hours we need to work for full employment and full productivity, why not lower the full time work hours? That was how the technical advances were sold to us in the first place.

[Exilednight]

89. Then you have to raise wages. This is the reality of our problem

My nephew works for a major cabinet manufacturer. He is currently working about 60 hours per week, and does make a livable wage for where he lives.

The problem: for his company to get him down to 40 hours a week, they have spend $700 more per new employee tha. They pay in overtime. This is due to their benefits package; medical, dental, 401k.

Solution: universal health care and A redesigned 401k system.

[sufrommich]

12. We do a great disservice to creating an intelligent populace when

we constantly equate higher learning to having to have a monetary value.Anyone who aspires to go on with their education after High School should have that option.We demand a college education pay off monetarily because of it's expense,that's a demand we would not have to make if we lowered costs. I'm not sure Sanders has the best plan for that,but we are running fast toward an idiocracy and the cure is education.

[Jackpine Radical]

17. Thanks. Exactly.

If we have wonderful labor-saving devices, then we ought to all share in the increased productivity by having our weekly hours of labor reduced accordingly. 20-hour work week? Wonderful. Then everyone will have time for that free college education, if that's what they choose. Or pursuing art, or just spending time with their kids.

It's one of those problems that contains the seeds of its own cure, if we can arrange for a socially conducive environment for it to happen in.

[Freddie]

20. But we won't

As long as we have Repugs who would rather have us on part-time "on demand scheduling", which is simply a new form of slavery.

[sufrommich]

28. This country has a long history of equating hard work with morality.

The Puritans brought it to our shores and every regressive politician has used it as a bludgeon since then.

[world wide wally]

58. There is an old Cajun expression about a rich guy:

If he's so smart, why is he working all the time?

[Jackpine Radical]

35. Absolutely.It's time and past time to throw off the tyrants and their tools.

Electing a banner-carrier is the smallest part of the coming challenges. It will not be easy getting the predators' claws and teeth out of our hides.

[marle35]

29. Competition

I think that assuming other countries have access to this technology, and we have free trade and global markets, it will continue to be a race to the bottom. Companies will continue to slash labor costs. Governments will continue to give away tax breaks to keep business.

In my opinion, the bottom needs to rise. That is, living standards and democratic participation need to increase globally for real progress to be made.

[Jackpine Radical]

38. I agree. And that, plus protection of the environment, ought to be the backbone

of any trade agreement.

Personally, I would like to see the US impose a tariff system keyed to the labor conditions in the exporting countries. If a country employs slave labor, we place a tariff on their products that brings the price up to what it would be if they paid decent living wages. Thus competition for cheap labor is taken off the table and sweatshop countries are incentivized (<--I sorta hate that word, actually) to improve their workers' conditions.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. Best god-damned post in this absurdist thread. My sincerest

compliments.

Keynes once predicted no one would need to work more than a 15-hour work week (3 hours\day) because of productivity gains. With a little wealth redistribution\jiggering of the tax code, we can make Keynes' prediction a reality. And the next leap forward in human freedom and evolution can finally begin.

[sufrommich]

52. We have a serious aversion to preparing for the future in this country.

Thank you for the compliment.

[ms liberty]

66. this comment and sub thread are DU at its best!

Thanks!

[Pooka Fey]

69. +1

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. It all began when Ned Ludd's warnings went unheeded. Technological 'progress'

would have been slower, but more uniformly beneficial, if full employment and a living wage had been the primary target - or at least become the primary target. Something Pope Francis is urging.

Personally, I don't think it will be possible until people are able to 'get a grip' of the world's 'movers and shakers', the Great and the Good; on the face of it, grounds for deep pessimism. But it could happen soon, after a major global catastrophe, which might not be far away, but it will be under the auspices of the Lord God Almighty - as would a restoration of a New Heaven and a New Earth, without which, think a cheap-rent Mad Max dystopia for any survivors.

[Adrahil]

75. Yeah, that's all. Ery poetic...

But what would you DO? Outlaw the develoment of any automation technology? Good luck with that!

[Joe Chi Minh]

84. Sure! I wouldn't have the least compunction. In fact, great enthusiasm,

But it ain't going to happen under this world order, fersure. Of course, an economic Armageddon could change the current paradigm in a trice. Then what would you do without all your telecomms gizmos and gizmeters?

[Adrahil]

90. Man... you are a piece of work...

How the heck would you ever do that? Kill all the engineers so they never come up with new ideas?

There's idealistic, then there's ridiculous.

BTW, I'd be fine if I lost all my gizmos. I know how to make things.

[Joe Chi Minh]

92. 'What is man that thou art mindful of him? the son of man, that thou visitest him?'

'Man.... you are a piece of work'.
Indeed.

Psalm 139 (excerpt)
'For it was you who created my being,
knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I thank you for the wonder of my being,
for the wonders of all your creation.'

Psalm 8 ►
King James Bible

How Majestic is Your Name!

1{To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.} O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
----------------------------

Quoted from: http://biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/8.htm

----------------------------


'BTW, I'd be fine if I lost all my gizmos. I know how to make things. '

Foolishness, thy name is Adrahil. That just shows you would be lost without your gizmos.

If you work for a large company and you come up with a brilliant idea, you will be prohibited from patenting it. The patent rights in it will belong to the company. Never mind if you leave it first. It makes no odds. I'm not talking about engineers, paid to come up with ideas; I mean guys on the production line and office workers.

Pray for Vladimir Putin, the last, secular Christian leader who is a bulwark against the globalist, capitalist Behemoth.

[thesquanderer]

22. At least it keeps people out of the work force for another 2-4 years. ;-)

Though I think the other posters have made some good points, about the value of college being more than just about employment, and the possibility of moving toward a shorter work week.

Really, in the end, the fact that making college more accessible doesn't solve every problem does not diminish the value of making college more accessible.

[CK_John]

30. Small college are closing and for profit see the writing on the wall and are cashing in now.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

27. Good point. Let's double the cost of attending a university.

I hadn't thought about it in these terms before, but it's all coming clear to me now. Without you, I never would have arrived at this brilliant conclusion. You get ALL the credit.

[CK_John]

32. Do you think Princeton will be around in 5 yrs, I don't.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

34. I assume it will be, but maybe you know more than I do.

I'll say that I think college isn't worth as much as it used to be, but that in no way means that we need to denigrate Sanders' effort to provide free postsecondary education.

[Logical]

47. Bullshit, what is going to happen to it? nt

[Lucky Luciano]

55. I'll take the other side of that bet. I will pay you $100K if you are right

...and you pay me $10k if I am right that Princeton is still here in five years.

[CK_John]

59. You got me wondering how the bookies will do fighting off robots?

[Lucky Luciano]

64. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it...after programming the robot. nt

[Adrahil]

91. What?

Under what ridiculous scenario would Princeton be gone in 5 years?

[Hoyt]

31. I basically agree, although I think a college education is beneficial in a number of ways and

gives many people options they might not otherwise have.

[daleanime]

33. If you believe so then your lucky.....

because a socialist is definitely the kind of person you want answer that question.

[seabeckind]

39. Is this post supposed to make sense?

It doesn't.

Productivity vs a college education? What?

Our job problem isn't productivity, it is that there aren't enough places in this country to be productive. When hundred of thousands of factories that make those things that we use every day, that break and have to be replaced, etc, have been dismantled and moved to Mexico or Vietnam,

who gives a f' how much productivity eliminated THOSE jobs?

Our problem is the jobs here...down the street...in the next town. I don't know, maybe they can make airbags that don't kill people.

And having smart people is a good idea. That's why there's education. Because the next Jonas Salk may be the kid sitting next to your grandkid and might need a little help getting into school. And have a good teacher who was sitting next to your kid in school. And is using a textbook written by the kid who was sitting next to you.

And we all need to eat and have enough time left over to read a book and not have to head off for a second job.

And if every family can be fruitful with ONE job, there'll be more than enough for all of us.

capische?

[CK_John]

48. Smoke and mirrors, driverless trucks will put 1-10 million out of work, computer dianostics

will replace millions of doctors, tablet kiosk will reduce Mac jobs by 50% within a few yrs, higher ed is not a solution.

[seabeckind]

56. Hallelujah!!!

And all those trucks will magically appear, spawned from truck fairy dust. Those tablets will grow from their own little tab seeds.

It'll be just wonderful and we'll all sit around and wonder where the jobs went.

Now, on a serious note...

That foundry -- the one that makes stampings for heat registers, replacement car fenders, etc, -- because of gains in productivity will only need 800 workers instead of its current 1200.

Very true.

But since (number based on expulsion from nether region) each of the workers in that foundry support directly and indirectly 7000 other workers, yep the economy will take a hit.

But the foundry is in South Korea. It was moved there in 1994.

Who gives a f' if it hits their economy?

How about if the next time we need more stampings....we build one HERE? That's a direct increase of 800 jobs, and it's a new factory, and it put people to work building it,

And you'll have a piece of AMERICAN steel blowing hot air at you.

Maybe we can even put the steel mill that the stampings come from HERE? Afterall, the iron ore comes from MINNESOTA. In fact, that's why the foundry closed. Because the steel mill was moved to South Korea in 1989.

Bernie understands this.

You don't.

[CK_John]

61. New defination of a truck convoy.

[seabeckind]

63. Old definition of truck convoy -- train.

Truly driverless.

So not only do you not understand Bernie....

[leeroysphitz]

40. Yeah but at least he isn't Hillary.

[X_Digger]

42. You poor thing.

Must be hard, all that TPP-cheerleading, and you still can't catch a break.

Here, have a cookie.

[Enrique]

43. this is false

his proposal is to take part of the funds from his investment tax increase for his tuition plan, but a lot of it will go to a massive investment in infrastructure.

Despite your false claim that "no one knows" how to create jobs, we actually do, and Sanders is proposing we do it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

44. Wow. This is really dumb.

[Nevernose]

45. The unemployment rate for college grads is 2.7%

Half the unemployment rate for non-college graduates.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

I agree wholeheartedly with you about alll of us being replaced by machines: soon every job, from farms and warehouses to teachers, lawyers, and medical professionals, will be replaced with robots and computers. Computers are already writing newspaper articles, for instance.

Either we will enter a golden age of leisure and learning, scientific exploration and caring about the world, or -- more likely -- the richest 1% will continue to exploit the working and middle classes to the point of starvation. Not because they'll need to, but because of a psychopathic need for control.

[rurallib]

51. So why are you blaming Bernie.Far as I know few if any people

of any stripe are talking this.
At least Sanders sees that getting folks educated will help prepare them to seek answers.
Not only to the automation problem, but climate change, infrastructure and many other problems.

Why did you not cite Hillary or Rand Paul or Ben Carson?

[madokie]

53. If we bring manufacturing back to america

all problems will have answers concerning our social ills. Education is the only way that can be

[notadmblnd]

54. Well there you have it Debbie Downer. We might all as well slash our wrists and bleed out- ya think?

But guess what? Bernie has a jobs plan too- so for now I think I'll delay my goodbye cruel world exit. You? You're free to do as you like.

[LWolf]

62. It's not a single solution.

It's an interconnected web of policies that lead to multiple solutions.

It's not false hope...we already fund public education, although the "public" part of that has been eroding for a few decades now. Universal, fully-funded, fully public, pre-school through university or trade school would do away with the glass ceiling that keeps some of us in our low places, not being able to afford to go on, or taking on enough debt to do so to keep us down.

That in itself, without worrying about jobs, would mean a better educated voting populace, which would mean politicians more accountable to voters, and hopefully better policies in place in all areas.

Speaking of those policies...

Universal, national health CARE free at point of service, paid by for taxes...that, and getting a fully free and complete education without debt, would improve quality of life and the cost of that life for the 99% all by itself.

Trade and labor policies that help the 99% are a part of that web.

They all work together, and education is just a part of the whole.

[hunter]

65. "Productivity" is the real problem because it's bullshit.

The way economic productivity is defined now is a direct measure of the damage we do the our planet's environment and the human spirit.

College needs to be free for people of any age, and for certain courses of training (teaching, medicine, dealing with rising oceans and global warming...) ought to include room and board and a stipend too.

We need plenty of opportunities for non-college people too. Wetlands restoration, and relocation of communities displaced by flooding or drought is going to be a big, big deal

[AgingAmerican]

68. Translation: Defeatism

Why even try, boo hoo hoo!

Eeyore Democrats have led us down the right wing path. Time to kick their gloom and doom to the curb.

[Springslips]

71. This is a good question...

Though no doubt throw out there in the worthless game of gotcha played between Bernie Puppets and the Hilarybots. And no doubt the threads above, which I have yet to look at, are probably hissy fits and kindergarden fighting between the camps--though I do hold out hope that a good discussion is there.

College education is good in-and-of-itself. Even if we approach a 100-percent mechanized age, and we have some quasi-socialist system higher Ed will still be of value. I have always hated the idea that the purpose of college was a career, it should be more than that. Actually, a mechanized economy will do wonders for changing how higher ed appears, ending once and for all it's framing as a point in a career path ( for many vocations), and freeing for intellectual and cultural growth.

[Agnosticsherbet]

74. A good idea, but as a Bill is it just another cheap way to get a campaign add.

I don't like it when Republicans or Democrats do it.

We need to elect a Congress that will pass such a bill, because an educated electorate is critical to a functioning Democracy.

[Backwoodsrider]

77. yeah education is a good thing

Free education might even be better. We are getting caught in that myth that if we just had low enough umemployment numbers life would be good. I think education is all that's saving us from a complete erosion of our rights. Where we are going as a nation is less freedom of choice but also we don't have to use as much effort to live.

PS the only reason the 1% allows us to vote on legal pot and gay marriage is because those 2 things make them money.

[TheNutcracker]

78. Oh thank gawd Hillary is running, and there for us!

[onecaliberal]

79. Like Hillary is?

[MADem]

82. It is a pipe dream, but it's aspirational and it gives people a rallying point.

Obama, if you recall, proposed free two year community college and post-high school vocational training for everyone five months ago at the SOTU. Congress has basically told him to fuck himself, so you can imagine what kind of reception Sanders will get.

This kind of thing, though, has a goal to let people know where the gentleman stands on issues in a general way. It's not going to happen any time soon--probably not in his, or my, lifetime. It might not happen at all.

It's a way of saying "I'm FOR THIS kind of thing, not THAT kind of thing, be "that kind of thing" war, tax cuts for the rich, or whatever those Republicans are screeching about, these days.

People who actually think he has a hope in hell of getting that passed just don't understand the process. It's a "nice thing to say" is all. It makes me smile, certainly.

Of course, I know how things work, so I won't be burbling along with any "false hope" about this proposal.....

[WDIM]

83. More education means

More people creating their own new jobs.

New technology will make work not as important. Instead of working 40 hrs a week some one should make a living wage working 20 hrs per week. This would mean more people working less hours but making more money which for labor should ultimately be the goal.

Our jobs should not be our lives or who we. But work does need to be done. More hands make a lighter load.

[DiverDave]

85. Well, with that attitude we're fucked

now get your chicken little costume out...

[jwirr]

87. Well I don't know about that. If I need heart surgery and there is no surgeon I am going to be

very angry that we did not listen to Bernie.

As to all these mechanized robots - we were hearing this story clear back in the 50s.

Yes, at Applebees the waitress brought us a little communication box that sat on the table so she did not have to take our order. But she still had to bring it to us and she also had to clean up after we ate. My daughter who is a computer programmer played around with it to see what it could do. Otherwise we probably would have refused to take it. It is just another piece of junk cluttering the table.

WalMart has a few mechanized check out aisles in their store - I ignore them and deliberately pass them by because they do not have a person at them.

Plus what happened to the idea that we were not going to have enough workers to fill all the jobs once the boomers retire? Maybe some of those robots will actually be needed.

[GeorgeGist]

88. 20 hr work week.