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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:12 PM May 2015

What message would we send if we quickly rejected Bernie and crowned HRC?

Wouldn't we then be saying that principle means nothing?

That we think so little of the American people that we truly believe they will only elect militarists who put corporate interests before the common good to the presidency?

That a couple of(probably meaningless by 2016, since every important issue will have been ruled on by then) seats on the Supreme Court could be worth backing perpetual U.S. military intervention in the Arab/Muslim world?

That "winning an election" is worth letting the party be forever controlled by the rich?

That we're just fine with giving up on ever getting big money out of politics?

That what Steve Earle once described in song as "four more years of things not getting worse is the best we can do?

I'd like to have HRC supporters here come in to this thread and actually make a case for the idea that giving their candudate the unchallenged coronation they think she's entitled to is anything other than checking our party's sould at the door and settling for the least we can possibly get.



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What message would we send if we quickly rejected Bernie and crowned HRC? (Original Post) Ken Burch May 2015 OP
Well Said - Thank You cantbeserious May 2015 #1
That we believe the supreme court is very important and we'd like a democratic POTUS beaglelover May 2015 #2
And we are willing to sell our souls to Goldman-Sachs-O-Gold for the ability rhett o rick May 2015 #15
Apparently pretty far BainsBane May 2015 #25
Are you saying that we Hillary supporters are selling our souls? hrmjustin May 2015 #46
I am saying that H.Clinton favors the big banks and Wall Street. After she rhett o rick May 2015 #154
Yours is not the politics of the 99 percent BainsBane May 2015 #174
"Yours is not the politics of the 99 percent"... SidDithers May 2015 #241
I speak for myself and you do a terrible job at trying to put words into my mouth. rhett o rick May 2015 #253
The "proof" is that the media says the presidential election will cost 2 billion BainsBane May 2015 #301
This isn't about Rhett kenfrequed May 2015 #277
democrats, obama, have fought for minimum wage increase. that is not exclusively sanders. obama has seabeyond May 2015 #284
You didn't actually read my argument. kenfrequed May 2015 #287
Pres Obama didn't fight very hard for a higher min wage. He raise the wages for a very rhett o rick May 2015 #309
he could not get 10.10 thru congress. signed executive order for federal workers. how will sanders seabeyond May 2015 #311
Huh? How could it be different? He could have failed at $15 and signed an executive order for that rhett o rick May 2015 #312
6 yrs later. when obama pushed 10.10, it was 6 years earlier. he was the start. since, states have seabeyond May 2015 #321
Had the president's min wage raise by executive order have been $15 per hour, it would have been a rhett o rick May 2015 #323
i explained that. agree or disagree it was what it is. hence, disappointment seabeyond May 2015 #325
be sure that she knows that we want in increased minimum wage, seabeyond May 2015 #291
I think it is an issue kenfrequed May 2015 #302
listen to you. obama has been fighting for increase in minimum wage. hillary TOO will fight seabeyond May 2015 #304
I am no longer convinced. kenfrequed May 2015 #306
there you go. i ma not a clinton supporter. i am a sander supporter. now.... doesnt that just flip seabeyond May 2015 #307
Didn't I argue with you before. kenfrequed May 2015 #320
"You previously have stated that you support both candidates" the beginning of primary race i am seabeyond May 2015 #322
My mistake kenfrequed May 2015 #327
you..."are upset", "making an awful lot of fuss" your incorrect perceptions, firstly. seabeyond May 2015 #328
At what point... kenfrequed May 2015 #329
"be sure that she knows that we want in increased minimum wage," seabeyond May 2015 #331
Yeah. kenfrequed May 2015 #332
ha. what a trip. you fug up hte argument all over the place with something so very simple seabeyond May 2015 #333
See previous post. kenfrequed May 2015 #334
Sanders seems cool BainsBane May 2015 #295
I could make the same argument about Hillary supporters kenfrequed May 2015 #303
I see a lot of nonsense posted about the election BainsBane May 2015 #308
I don't project class onto someones arguments kenfrequed May 2015 #314
no he is saying "Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism" zappaman May 2015 #280
Oh yes that post. hrmjustin May 2015 #288
I guess we will miss him when he leaves DU if HRC gets the nom. zappaman May 2015 #362
Well maybe we can convince him to vote for her. hrmjustin May 2015 #363
Do you mind if i twitter the bernie sanders campaign stonecutter357 May 2015 #172
I think one reason that Sen Sanders is running is because he knows that the rhett o rick May 2015 #254
Twitter this quote as well... zappaman May 2015 #286
I agree with you. We are currently headed for fascism and voting to support the rhett o rick May 2015 #310
Yes, it is certainly one of the dumbest fucking things I've read on the internet. zappaman May 2015 #324
FFS malokvale77 May 2015 #20
"No Republican will cross over for Hillary" leftofcool May 2015 #42
I know 50 that will cross over for Bernie. malokvale77 May 2015 #77
FFS, you are in for a very rude awakening if you somehow manage to get Bernie the D nomination for beaglelover May 2015 #43
At this point in time... malokvale77 May 2015 #157
Holy crap-how did that plane stay in the air for seven-and-a-half extra hours without refueling? Ken Burch May 2015 #205
And what makes him so much less electable than Ted Cruz? Scootaloo May 2015 #177
That is all your opinion. KMOD May 2015 #105
#157 (nt) malokvale77 May 2015 #158
I have a relative who always 840high May 2015 #133
That is what I have been experiencing. malokvale77 May 2015 #161
Friends and family are apparently the best barometer for a national electorate... brooklynite May 2015 #266
Ah - you again. 840high May 2015 #297
FWIW-I would NEVER assume a candidate I support was doing well because of what my friends say... brooklynite May 2015 #300
I am not aware of what you do. 840high May 2015 #358
I thought everyone knew me...I get enough criticism for it brooklynite May 2015 #360
Now I know. Thanks. 840high May 2015 #361
What are the Very Important People that you socialize with saying? frylock May 2015 #316
My teabagger BIL completely dismisses Bernie. Paka May 2015 #176
This Paka... malokvale77 May 2015 #218
I agree whole-heartedly! Paka May 2015 #219
There's not really all that many, they're just really noisy. Scuba May 2015 #227
You can always find another forum leftofcool May 2015 #231
+1,000 Scuba May 2015 #226
Frankly, this is actually not a strong argument. kenfrequed May 2015 #278
That's not enough for me. 840high May 2015 #135
How about actually winning the WH? Is that important to you? KMOD May 2015 #137
Anyone we nominate can do that. Ken Burch May 2015 #217
In a nutshell. malokvale77 May 2015 #222
Her appeal seems very high in current polling. KMOD May 2015 #247
I am supporting Bernie BECAUSE of the SC. Hillary cannot win the GE. She has no crossover sabrina 1 May 2015 #299
Hear, hear. woo me with science May 2015 #3
What do you consider "quickly?" Renew Deal May 2015 #4
With your attitude the American people will surely lose. cui bono May 2015 #5
Who are the American people? Renew Deal May 2015 #7
Who are the American people? What do you mean by that? cui bono May 2015 #37
We are all the American people. Renew Deal May 2015 #50
Yes we are. My interpretation was that we need to fight for him to show we support his ideas cui bono May 2015 #55
That's your opinion. JaneyVee May 2015 #8
Of course it is. I'm not going to write someone else's opinion. cui bono May 2015 #28
Yes cui bono... malokvale77 May 2015 #162
HRC supporters don't support that. JaneyVee May 2015 #6
I agree Renew Deal May 2015 #10
Then you do have the right to change your mind, instead of Super-Gluing your mouth to HRC's eloydude May 2015 #18
lolwut? JaneyVee May 2015 #19
eloydude said you have your mouth glued to Hillary's ass./NT DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #49
I'm actually still undecided, although the Bernie crowd... JaneyVee May 2015 #56
That's exactly what I would suggest. Wait for the debates. eloydude May 2015 #69
Your vote is your own but if a HRC supporter accuses you of having your lips glued to ... DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #76
I tried to alert when he said that, but it had already been alerted on. Ken Burch May 2015 #215
You might want to edit your post. leftofcool May 2015 #44
What? What's there to edit? It's PG-rated.. eloydude May 2015 #59
It's childish! But most Bernie supporters are childish. leftofcool May 2015 #72
That's where you are confusing passion for childish..... eloydude May 2015 #80
We have plenty, we just use it in a mature way. leftofcool May 2015 #87
When they don't answer a simple question: "What makes Hillary better than Bernie" eloydude May 2015 #93
Clinton supporters have frequently offered reasons to support her over Sanders brooklynite May 2015 #268
No doubt, your petulant and peevish actions are thankfully not shared by Sanders. LanternWaste May 2015 #235
This is whatbhe did last night. hrmjustin May 2015 #298
Nah it's cool. Let it all out there. JaneyVee May 2015 #61
I think middle school must be out! leftofcool May 2015 #68
Jury Results oneshooter May 2015 #94
I support #7.. seriously... eloydude May 2015 #102
Really? Then YOU probably shouldn't have made that comment, eh? leftofcool May 2015 #120
My comment was meant to be the nicest way possible.. eloydude May 2015 #121
No, it is not a problem. You are the one with the problem leftofcool May 2015 #128
I see...whereas the Sanders supporters are thoughtfully keeping an open mind...right? brooklynite May 2015 #269
On this we agree. hrmjustin May 2015 #122
Your callout and insults to me and other HRC supporters are out of hand. hrmjustin May 2015 #272
Welcome to DU! zappaman May 2015 #279
Oh grow up. NuclearDem May 2015 #117
You're on a site where 90-95 percent of the people support Sanders BainsBane May 2015 #9
Why do you just not respond? Bonobo May 2015 #12
In other words BainsBane May 2015 #13
Difference: Your response is to attack the poster for his feelings. Bonobo May 2015 #41
Anybody can respond. KMOD May 2015 #130
I responded to his point BainsBane May 2015 #132
BS. You can respond all you want and so can I. Bonobo May 2015 #147
The whole thread is a callout built on a false premise or a straw man, ergo: DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #84
Bemusing that you hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to. LanternWaste May 2015 #236
Of course you want to "wait for the primary". Money wins and the billionaires have unlimited rhett o rick May 2015 #23
Are you saying you don't want people to vote now? BainsBane May 2015 #71
I didn't say any of those things. I can see how if I did, then you would have something to complain rhett o rick May 2015 #257
The Bernie supports here come across, to me at least, as very young and beaglelover May 2015 #30
This "very young and immature and idealistic" Sanders supporter... 99Forever May 2015 #47
Exactly and I just put another one in ignore for calling us all chldish. They really know how to jwirr May 2015 #156
That isn't the demographic of this site BainsBane May 2015 #86
I am 76. 840high May 2015 #142
I love being called young at 60...and I am very idealistic and optimistic! NRaleighLiberal May 2015 #149
they aren't young at all which makes it even worse with how they come off JI7 May 2015 #173
don't forget that they're gullible as well frylock May 2015 #318
Because there are a lot of posts that say we have to vote for Hillary because we don't want the GOP cui bono May 2015 #45
Really? Because there are far fewer Clinton supporters BainsBane May 2015 #83
I'm not sure what the amount of supporters each has has to do with anything, but in any case, cui bono May 2015 #85
It's reflected in the numbers of threads and responses BainsBane May 2015 #92
That's not what it is for me, it's the fact that a lot Hillary supporters post as if she's running cui bono May 2015 #97
I have trouble with the fact that so many vest so much BainsBane May 2015 #112
That sounds like an argument for it doesn't matter who we elect zeemike May 2015 #150
I think party matters BainsBane May 2015 #160
Well it can never be altered without a president zeemike May 2015 #233
i being one of the people say it ONLY to those that SAY they will not vote clinton if she wins. seabeyond May 2015 #239
A bad, bad one. Bonobo May 2015 #11
FYI it's not just Bernie and Hillary... one_voice May 2015 #14
Roe will be overturned no matter what. Citizens United will never be overturned. Ken Burch May 2015 #27
And where do the other... one_voice May 2015 #81
I referenced HRC because of the implication that she was the ONLY electable Dem. Ken Burch May 2015 #95
let me understand. you have so little hope for supreme crt, yet, confident sanders can turn u.s. seabeyond May 2015 #240
May I please have a list of every poster who is asking for a coronation. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #16
You, for starters.. eloydude May 2015 #21
Show me the post where I demanded a coronation. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #26
I can say a few things as well but he/she is not worth a hidden post. hrmjustin May 2015 #29
It's worth a hide. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #40
When you refused to consider anyone else except Hillary Clinton because she's eloydude May 2015 #52
No links? Just as I thought! leftofcool May 2015 #63
I have said, ad nauseum and ad infinitum, I have no desire to tell others how to vote. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #70
A President Hillary Clinton will have earned her office. LuvLoogie May 2015 #187
i wasn't aware DUers were telling you that we need to do a coronation. hrmjustin May 2015 #17
You're guilty too. eloydude May 2015 #22
Link? hrmjustin May 2015 #24
I don't think someone with 258 posts has ever read any of your posts! leftofcool May 2015 #35
Poster just got here and seems to think he/she knows what i am guilty of. hrmjustin May 2015 #39
Poster just got here... one_voice May 2015 #119
. hrmjustin May 2015 #124
Stop disrespecting posters from the anonymity of an internet connection. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #32
Guilty? I'm sure you're able to... one_voice May 2015 #38
Still waiting for the link. hrmjustin May 2015 #66
I'm still waiting on why you prefer Hillary over Bernie... eloydude May 2015 #75
Your the one who made an accusation against me. Back it up! hrmjustin May 2015 #79
Fine. I did a few minutes of research. I found nothing. So I'll be a man, and apologize. eloydude May 2015 #90
Perhaps in the future you should think before you make an accusations against a fellow DUer. hrmjustin May 2015 #100
Because there really isn't much differenc between the two candidates. KMOD May 2015 #136
Bernie can and will win the primaries and blow away the Republicans eloydude May 2015 #140
It's early yet, but please entertain me, and tell me which caucuses and primarys KMOD May 2015 #143
As another Bernie supporter, let me respectfully ask you to Ken Burch May 2015 #214
VERY mature.....typical Bernie supporter on DU. Childish. beaglelover May 2015 #242
I was denouncing that guy(who I'm pretty sure is actually a rw troll)for his abusive tactics. Ken Burch May 2015 #313
There are a lot of posts where people say we have to vote for Hillary or else the GOP will appoint cui bono May 2015 #48
People advocating for HRC is not telling people we need a coronation. hrmjustin May 2015 #54
No, that's not what they are saying. They are saying we have to vote for her or else the GOP cui bono May 2015 #62
No that is saying she is the only one who can win. hrmjustin May 2015 #64
No, it's giving the primary to her before we even have it. Not the same thing at all. cui bono May 2015 #73
If you are under the impression that i am upset but your opinion of me then you are sadly hrmjustin May 2015 #82
I'm not under any impressions of your emotions. I'm just telling you like it is. cui bono May 2015 #88
no. you are not honest. argument is dishonest. i have addressed only the people braggin wont vote seabeyond May 2015 #246
He accused you of being closed minded... DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #89
Sometimes i wonder if it is just time to take the rest of the primary off from DU. hrmjustin May 2015 #91
Nope! I have a better idea! leftofcool May 2015 #99
Ok. hrmjustin May 2015 #101
That is their raison d'etre, to chase everybody who disagrees with them from this site. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #103
Normally i have that strength as well but i think i need a break soon. hrmjustin May 2015 #106
There is nothing liberal about bullying people./NT DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #107
Very true. hrmjustin May 2015 #108
People aren't this mean in real life. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #110
Yeah even here in Brooklyn we are rather polite. hrmjustin May 2015 #111
I live in Los Angeles and take public transportation. Most folks are friendly... DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #113
I live in the southern end so we don't many hipsters but yes Brooklyn is trending. hrmjustin May 2015 #115
I left NY when I was 12 DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #116
Yes it is and it is very trendy now. hrmjustin May 2015 #118
Too cold. FL and CA weather has spoiled me. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #123
Pacific and Atlantic.Ave hrmjustin May 2015 #125
Is that near Williamsburg? DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #126
No, the north end of Park Slope. hrmjustin May 2015 #127
That's where the fictional Cosbys lived, very tony./NT DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #129
Nice area. hrmjustin May 2015 #131
Ever been to L A. I have only been here three years. DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #134
I have several times. Hot all the time. hrmjustin May 2015 #138
Then you would fry in Orlando and Miami/NT DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #144
I am a very fair skinned person so I don't go in the sun often. hrmjustin May 2015 #153
Yep. I find the responses in this thread to be jaw-dropping. That anyone thinks that scurrying Number23 May 2015 #166
of course not, just like how most of the Elizabeth Warren Support is usually just JI7 May 2015 #167
That is exactly what happened in 2008. jwirr May 2015 #163
People left? hrmjustin May 2015 #164
Yes, the fight between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters got so hot that many just left. jwirr May 2015 #168
Yes we are at each others throats. hrmjustin May 2015 #171
Really? Should I post the link where you purposely edited your post to make it look like I cui bono May 2015 #225
Here i just did it for you. hrmjustin May 2015 #262
It's not "he", and hrmjusting told me 2-3 months ago that he was for Hillary end of story. cui bono May 2015 #224
he is ALLOWED to have made his choice of democratic candidate. for real? you are fuckin on his ass seabeyond May 2015 #248
Where did I say he is not ALLOWED to do that? cui bono May 2015 #335
well sure. he is allowed. but then, he is closed minded after all. forget that he sees the value in seabeyond May 2015 #336
Ah... so I DIDN'T say he wasn't allowed. That's what I thought. Thanks for clearing that up! cui bono May 2015 #338
absolutely not a hint of qualm insulting the man for his choice. seabeyond May 2015 #339
Weird. I must have missed the post where you apologized for your false accusation of me. cui bono May 2015 #342
oh bullshit. you insulted him for no reason but he refuses to do what you want him to do. then seabeyond May 2015 #343
What is it that I asked him to do? Please quote me. And where did I claim I was a victim? cui bono May 2015 #345
just more games. seabeyond May 2015 #346
So no quotes? And no apology for the false accusations? cui bono May 2015 #348
you do not have a gotcha. what you have is you insulting a man for his choices. seabeyond May 2015 #349
Thank you Seabeyond! hrmjustin May 2015 #350
you are owed MORE, than what you were getting in this conversation. nt seabeyond May 2015 #352
Thank you. hrmjustin May 2015 #353
This message was self-deleted by its author hrmjustin May 2015 #263
Yeah, it pretty much is. Bonobo May 2015 #178
Let me ask you this. hrmjustin May 2015 #180
No, not if the person was just describing his emotional reaction. Bonobo May 2015 #182
Maybe i am gutless coward but... hrmjustin May 2015 #183
No strong reaction of horror at war and the deaths of innocents in Iraq... Bonobo May 2015 #184
Interesting post but if i am not mistaken i think your reaction was about her laughing about gaddafi hrmjustin May 2015 #185
True indeed. Such expressions of joy in the face of war and death do make me ill. Bonobo May 2015 #186
i won't shed a tear for gaddafi. hrmjustin May 2015 #188
Yes, but it isn't about that. It is about judging a person by their reactions Bonobo May 2015 #189
Then don't vote for her. hrmjustin May 2015 #191
Your evasiveness is...satisfying. Bonobo May 2015 #192
"YOU will not be called out for your own little part in actual, real death and misery" hrmjustin May 2015 #193
I feel the case has been made. Bonobo May 2015 #194
Yeah how dare i have a different opinion then you. hrmjustin May 2015 #196
Now I'm starting to feel bad. Bonobo May 2015 #198
i can't keep my eyes open so you can go on about this tomorrow if you like. hrmjustin May 2015 #201
Not everyone is in your time zone. But go to sleep and have sweet, sweet dreams Bonobo May 2015 #202
And free of keyboard warriors. hrmjustin May 2015 #203
Good god BainsBane May 2015 #209
For once we agree! nt Bonobo May 2015 #210
here i am a supporter. i am only still a suport cause i keep taking the insults, dismissals of my seabeyond May 2015 #250
Nobody has insulted you. Ken Burch May 2015 #315
meh... to the supreme court. no. that is not support to seabeyond May 2015 #317
What I said was that by 2016, the court probably will have decided everything already. Ken Burch May 2015 #319
we have a lot working its way up form state laws passed. better damn well have a supreme crt seabeyond May 2015 #326
Anyone we nominated would give us that. n/t. Ken Burch May 2015 #340
yes. and i have not argued that either. you are the one to dismiss supreme crt in YOUR OP. seabeyond May 2015 #344
not hit things. people. a woman. or another he can take down. nt seabeyond May 2015 #249
again. i ONLY comment on those that brag they will not vote dem if clinton wins. a little honesty seabeyond May 2015 #244
... RandySF May 2015 #31
K & R Thanks for posting this. L0oniX May 2015 #33
It would say that the message would be that democratic voters quickly rejected Senator Sanders, KMOD May 2015 #34
Your post discounts the fact that they are very far apart on the political spectrum. cui bono May 2015 #51
No. I don't agree with you on that. KMOD May 2015 #58
She is not left. She is center, perhaps slightly left of because of social issues. cui bono May 2015 #65
She is left. KMOD May 2015 #74
Why is the Wall Street and Monsanto stuff silly? cui bono May 2015 #141
Because she is a fighter for everyday people, KMOD May 2015 #145
Here's a side question Renew Deal May 2015 #104
Oh for Gawd's sake! Get over it already. This is boring! leftofcool May 2015 #36
... okasha May 2015 #57
all I hear is that Hillary is more popular olddots May 2015 #53
She is very well respected and admired, olddots. KMOD May 2015 #67
That is the way one wins elections mythology May 2015 #98
political demographs in a political campaign and race is significant, right? omg, that is discussed. seabeyond May 2015 #245
I see those who post as if they are for Bernie does not hear him when he ask to cease the bad Thinkingabout May 2015 #60
Stating a candidates past and present positions, policies and associations is not bad mouthing. cui bono May 2015 #78
I believe he said criticism is fair game, and Hillary brings plenty to criticize - she is running whereisjustice May 2015 #152
Bernie has tried to guide his supporters to cease the criticizing, guess you did not hear him. Thinkingabout May 2015 #165
On why he criticizes other candidates, namely Hillary Clinton: whereisjustice May 2015 #170
you might want to reflect on personal insults not only in the OP but several posts that has nothing seabeyond May 2015 #251
That We Are Serious, And Sensible. WillyT May 2015 #96
serious! by gosh. dismiss the third branch of our govt with a MEH... fuck you. totally series11!!11! seabeyond May 2015 #252
What we would be saying in my opinion is that we are hunky dory with corporations owning POTUS onecaliberal May 2015 #109
+1 840high May 2015 #151
Hillary will continue to turn our nation over to corporations to manage, those on the right whereisjustice May 2015 #114
and it's also BS. KMOD May 2015 #139
What the hell does that mean? Historic NY May 2015 #148
obama went after wallstreet and bankers and only got so far. will be the same for clinton AND seabeyond May 2015 #255
That we're happy with wars, pollution, for profit health insurance, wall street rule, Doctor_J May 2015 #146
And Hillary has shown to be willing to change her views on the meaning of marriage on a dime if it whereisjustice May 2015 #155
very nimble for her age. she's "evolved" on so many issues it's hard to remember which are Doctor_J May 2015 #159
ken, this is such a hyperbolic drama of the very myth i stated in my post above, a minute ago. #255 seabeyond May 2015 #256
I suspect that is why Bernie is running MaggieD May 2015 #169
Alas, the debates are meaningless. SheilaT May 2015 #175
If HRC is nominated, all the Nineties shit will be revived. Ken Burch May 2015 #216
It will not be us, the good Democrats SheilaT May 2015 #221
First off...take your insults and shove them workinclasszero May 2015 #179
"get on a democratic board and say that the next SCOTUS openings are unimportant" seabeyond May 2015 #258
And then you will see the Bernie purists throw him under the proverbial bus, MoonRiver May 2015 #260
I have no doubt! workinclasszero May 2015 #270
Wouldn't surprise me, one little bit. MoonRiver May 2015 #271
"take your insults and shove them" followed by a call out of "Bernie purists" frylock May 2015 #330
why do you think she has high approvals from african americans and latinos ? JI7 May 2015 #181
They want to be on the side of the candidate seen as the frontrunner. Ken Burch May 2015 #195
so why don't they support republicans when republicans are front runners ? JI7 May 2015 #197
Because the Republicans want to destroy them, rather than just blandly ignore them. Ken Burch May 2015 #199
so why do you think they accept being blindly ignored ? JI7 May 2015 #200
Sometimes you take what you think you can get. Ken Burch May 2015 #204
but why are they unable to see the truth ? JI7 May 2015 #208
I'm not claiming to speak as "the Voice of Truth". Don't project that on me. Ken Burch May 2015 #213
but you did in your OP as you usually do , and Rahm actually got higher percentage of hispanic vote JI7 May 2015 #220
I simply speak for myself, as everyone here has the right to do. Ken Burch May 2015 #223
You just dismissed entire races of people as unable to make decisions based on their own interests BainsBane May 2015 #232
it is not like this has not been discussed and said RESPECTFULLY and repeatedly the last 3 weeks. seabeyond May 2015 #261
No it doesn't. Ken Burch May 2015 #355
I didn't dismiss anyone. Ken Burch May 2015 #354
What is the basis for your opinion on african americans and latinos? lovemydog May 2015 #212
I do not think you have an alternative unless someone from the Democratic party is running. akbacchus_BC May 2015 #190
You're completely incorrect, we have Sanders as a choice dreamnightwind May 2015 #207
"populist causes rather than corporatist causes." while progressive doesnt say, fuck the supreme crt seabeyond May 2015 #267
Bernie would appoint excellent SCOTUS justices dreamnightwind May 2015 #273
of course i know sanders will do well. as i have repeatedly said. that is NOT what my argument is. seabeyond May 2015 #274
Ah, on this issue your quarrel is with the OP, not me dreamnightwind May 2015 #275
We don't, but the problem is the populace overwhelmingly supports the two party's in control, though still_one May 2015 #211
hillary clinton is not evil. i support sanders, so far. or leaning to him seabeyond May 2015 #265
what are you talking about, she is being challenged, not only by Bernie, but most likely a couple of still_one May 2015 #206
DU rec, although I disagree that all the SCOTUS important cases will be decided, ever. Scuba May 2015 #228
bullshit rules once again quickesst May 2015 #229
I support Bernie quaker bill May 2015 #230
Is there a strong, collective opinion that everyone except Clinton should drop out? LanternWaste May 2015 #234
How would we do that? There are primary elections. MineralMan May 2015 #237
what a fuckin dismissing insulting post to so many, for so many reasons. and yet... you own the high seabeyond May 2015 #238
I have nothing to do with the "populist forum" and never have. Ken Burch May 2015 #359
We will be saying that more of the electorate supports Hillary Clinton MoonRiver May 2015 #243
We'll be saying we want a good liberal president who will do the right thing for the next four MohRokTah May 2015 #259
No one who was a bland centrist in the Nineties can be a liberal now. n/t. Ken Burch May 2015 #356
Hillary Clinton has NEVER been a bland centrist. eom MohRokTah May 2015 #357
Who is "quickly rejecting Bernie"? brooklynite May 2015 #264
I think HRC supporters are nervous about Bernie, which is good. If they were not nervous peacebird May 2015 #276
This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond May 2015 #281
That was not me. peacebird May 2015 #285
This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond May 2015 #289
I am not peace13...? I am peacebird. Even the total post count is wrong. That is not my post. peacebird May 2015 #290
thank you so much for pointing out my mistake. i wil delete them. i am sorry. my bad. nt seabeyond May 2015 #292
No worries! peacebird May 2015 #293
this is how bad i am. listening to the other poster, i was thinking you seabeyond May 2015 #294
(Hugs) peacebird May 2015 #296
Mine vs. Yours HassleCat May 2015 #282
That we are realistic, and not pinning our hopes on a million to 1 shot. frankieallen May 2015 #283
The message is that the Democratic Party cares about winning in the general election Gothmog May 2015 #305
Oh look... another self-righteous thread attacking HRC supporters. n/t Adrahil May 2015 #337
Nobody wants a "coronation". DanTex May 2015 #341
It says we are the more inclusive and less delusional wing of the anti constitution, WarBucks Party. TheKentuckian May 2015 #347
Message: It's all about Money and Power Joe Turner May 2015 #351
That, no matter what we say, we really don't give a fuck about economic justice. LWolf May 2015 #364

beaglelover

(3,436 posts)
2. That we believe the supreme court is very important and we'd like a democratic POTUS
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:13 PM
May 2015

in the white house for the next 8 years.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
15. And we are willing to sell our souls to Goldman-Sachs-O-Gold for the ability
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:41 PM
May 2015

to say that. Haven't you learned that not all Democrats want to reduce poverty, save American jobs, punish torturers and war criminals? It isn't enough to have just any Democrat in the White House. It's important to have one that supports the people the 99% and not Goldman-Sachs and the Wall Street Gang. How far into poverty are you willing to let our children slide before you recognize that there are some Democrats that serve Wall Street and not Main Street?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
25. Apparently pretty far
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:50 PM
May 2015

and that is on all sides, considering you said you thought funding foodstamps constituted an adequate response to poverty. The same foodstamps supported by all the DLC Democrats. For all your hyperbole, when it comes down to actual plans, I don't see you supporting anything that challenges the status quo.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
154. I am saying that H.Clinton favors the big banks and Wall Street. After she
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:23 AM
May 2015

accepts $2 Billion, do you think she can effectively fight the wealth inequality that is driving the lower classes into poverty? Honestly, do you think those that give her campaign $2 billion dollars won't expect some quid pro quo?

There are two sides to this class war and Goldman-Sachs isn't on the side of the 99%.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
174. Yours is not the politics of the 99 percent
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:07 AM
May 2015

You care about yourself and your own class interests, and say the poor should be content with food stamps. You see the poor as objects of charity, not citizens who are as worthy of articulating their concerns as you are. You refuse to consider that anyone has legitimate interests, that their lives even matter. You insult people far less privileged than yourself as allied with Wall Street simply because they don't share your contempt for one woman. Class isn't defined by hatred for a single politician. It's defined by wealth and privilege. The poor and subaltern are not allied with Goldman Sachs because they refuse to abandon their own concerns for your interests. You are so certain that our concerns are so inconsequential that you insist all that matters is what you declare is important. You completely ignore, and define out of existence, the concerns of the vast majority of Americans who don't fit your narrow view of politics. If we are drawing only two sides, I don't put you on the side with the lower 50-60 percent.

I think this 99 percent thing is a pretty convenient artifice for the upper-middle class. They pretend they speak for the majority, while demonstrating nothing but contempt for the voices and interests of members of that majority, refusing to consider anything they have to say and instead insulting them. You aren't on the side of the 99 percent. You promote your own class interests and are completely hostile to the very right of those less fortunate to articulate their concerns. You show no more concern for my basic rights, or the rights and concerns of the rest of the subaltern, than do bankers. Like it's supposed to matter to us if someone is in the upper 1 percent or the upper 10 percent when they show that they see us as less than them and don't give a shit about how we define our own concerns. If there are only two sides, you are a lot closer to Goldman Sachs than Justin or I are.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
253. I speak for myself and you do a terrible job at trying to put words into my mouth.
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:51 AM
May 2015

H. Clinton has close ties to those that want to eliminate all safety nets. She has close ties with the neocons that love the MIC and continuous war. She lied to help George W. Bush kill a million innocent people. She does not represent the 99%.

Of course, like the Third Way she knows to get power she must throw the people some bones (or cake), but she represents the 1%.

The proof is the fact that she solicits money from the super wealthy and is expected to reap $2 Billion dollars to buy the presidency.

She supports those that give her money.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
301. The "proof" is that the media says the presidential election will cost 2 billion
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:05 PM
May 2015

and because you have no interest in anything other than keeping one woman from becoming president, you pretend that is all her fault rather than a result of the American political system worsened by recent SCOTUS decisions. You don't want to do a thing about the influence of money in government. You want to pretend it is all about Hillary Clinton, which guarantees that money continues to influence the political process.

I don't give a shit about your hatred of her. Actually, the fact you despise her makes her all the more appealing. You invent from whole cloth false charges and insult anyone who dares to believe they have a right to an opinion that you don't sanction. She doesn't' support cutting safety nets. That is a complete fabrication, as is your claim that she lied us into war. Clinton is not the liar here, and the fact is she does something you refuse to do at all costs: listen to what ordinary Americans care about. Meanwhile, you hurl insults because you are capable of nothing else. You don't bother to inform yourself even minimally on issues you claim to care about. Your entire worldview is based on exclusion and derision. It's inconceivable that you think you are doing anything but turning people off Sanders. Given that the only thing you care about is defeating Hillary Clinton, you could at least figure out how to work toward that goal rather than having the opposite effect. In the process, you show complete and utter disrespect, in fact contempt, for the vast majority of Americans who dare to care about their own lives and interests as opposed to what you see as the far more important matter of your anger.

The poor deserve more than a safety net, a fail safe in a system based on rampant inequality, a system the white upper-middle class benefits from. They deserve a living wage, and they deserve the right to voice their own concerns. All of us deserve that right, including the LGBT members you habitually insult as being allied with Goldman Sachs, when the fact is your privilege means you have far more in common with that elite than they do.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
277. This isn't about Rhett
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:58 PM
May 2015

This is about the message about assuring the party recognizes that there are progressive positions on economic issues and that it ought to run on them. Even if Hillary does win the primary I want to be sure that she knows that we want in increased minimum wage, a stronger social security system (smash the cap!), and policies that are going to be more directed at helping citizens than banks.

If she really embraces this then it will all be worthwhile. If Sanders gets the nomination that will be even better for my money. But ultimately this is about sending a signal to the party about where the majority of the American people really stand. I know third-way wants everyone to believe that excessive progressivism doesn't sell but there have been a number of supposed red states that have passed minimum wage increases as ballot initiatives. Imagine if we actually ran that way.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
284. democrats, obama, have fought for minimum wage increase. that is not exclusively sanders. obama has
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:16 PM
May 2015

worked against wallstreet and banks. he was only able to go so far. and it is being weakened by repugs. that is not exclusively sanders.

here is the point. your argument is an all or nothing sum game between clinton and sanders.

that is not reality. it is a failed argument.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
287. You didn't actually read my argument.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:19 PM
May 2015

Seriously, read what I wrote again and feel free to edit your comment. I won't judge.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
309. Pres Obama didn't fight very hard for a higher min wage. He raise the wages for a very
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:38 PM
May 2015

small number of people and to only $10 per hour. Why didn't he he raise it to a decent $15 per hour like some regions have?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
311. he could not get 10.10 thru congress. signed executive order for federal workers. how will sanders
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:51 PM
May 2015

be different with 15 an hour?

states and communities raising to 15 an hour, or whatever, will help to make it more of a demand, as much as anything.

i also expect another push from him in the next year and half, before he leaves office.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
312. Huh? How could it be different? He could have failed at $15 and signed an executive order for that
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:57 PM
May 2015

amount. Don't expect much between now and when he leaves office. He wants the TPP to be his legacy. Then watch wages drop.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
321. 6 yrs later. when obama pushed 10.10, it was 6 years earlier. he was the start. since, states have
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:25 PM
May 2015

jumped on. some up to 15. some over 9.

that will help anyone going further. who knows where sanders would land.

that is something to see

regardless, my point is. this is not a all or nothing some total. you see sanders doing more. and obama still addressed it.

i prefer the 15 also. that was not the start of the conversation with minimum wage back in early 2009. that has not even become part of the discussion until recently with washington state.

i wont right off tomorrow, before i have gotten to tomorrow. and i will certainly not argue tomorrow today, as if it is fact.

sanders going to 15 is one of the reasons i support him

along with other things.

i am also not going to be a fool arguing obama and clinton do not have the same position of increase in minimum wage.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
323. Had the president's min wage raise by executive order have been $15 per hour, it would have been a
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:52 PM
May 2015

great statement. The $10.10 per hour actually undercuts the efforts withing states to get to $15 per hour.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
325. i explained that. agree or disagree it was what it is. hence, disappointment
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:22 PM
May 2015

but not to the point of disowning what he did or where he stands with minimum wage.

which is my argument.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
291. be sure that she knows that we want in increased minimum wage,
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:31 PM
May 2015

i think this is a false argument. ya. send her the message. i am good with that also.

reality is, our dems are addressing a lot of things, dont get them thru or weakened cause of repugs. i think that has to be part of the discussion.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
302. I think it is an issue
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:16 PM
May 2015

I think increasing the minimum wage IS an issue and that we have to make sure ALL the candidates agree on it. I don't want lip service on it and I think having Sanders in the debates keeps these debates on progressive economic issues.

I don't know why you are making a fuss about something that should be practically an entrance requirement for the democratic nomination. I mean, couldn't you just as easily have dug up a news story where Hillary states she supports increasing the minimum wage?


Like this?

http://www.statecolumn.com/2014/04/hillary-clinton-promotes-womens-rights-in-front-of-thousands-of-methodist-women/#!

I mean seriously, are you just looking to fight Sanders supporters for no bloody reason?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
304. listen to you. obama has been fighting for increase in minimum wage. hillary TOO will fight
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:19 PM
May 2015

for an increase in minimum wage.

it is like me saying. good think clinton is in the primary so she can make sanders understand minimum wage is an important issue

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
306. I am no longer convinced.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:24 PM
May 2015

I am no longer convicned you are actually a Hillary supporter. You seem to come here to spoil for a fight. If you look one thread up I pointed out how you could make your argument better. Afterwhich you still seemed to want to fight about it.

I am done with you.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
307. there you go. i ma not a clinton supporter. i am a sander supporter. now.... doesnt that just flip
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:28 PM
May 2015

your boat. i am not into presenting false arguments. i challenge false arguments. spoiler? to false arguments? sure.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
320. Didn't I argue with you before.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:24 PM
May 2015

You are familiar to me. You previously have stated that you support both candidates when someone calls you on your statements. Given that I am having difficulty figuring out what your intentions are here since you seem to shift who you are claiming to support based on who is calling you out.

No, you do not flip my boat. You do not spoil anything.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
322. "You previously have stated that you support both candidates" the beginning of primary race i am
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:28 PM
May 2015

sittin with sanders. we will see as his campaign continues. i will be fine with sanders or clinton as president.

i have been at that position since before sanders declared.

i do call out bullshit.

to suggest both obama and clinton need sanders to address minimum wage is a straw man argument.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
327. My mistake
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:29 PM
May 2015

Must be someone else. My mistake. Mea Culpa and all that.

So... to sum up.

You are a Sanders supporter.

But are upset that I would post something suggesting that Sanders being in the race awhile would be a good thing because it would make candidates push harder on progressive economic policies. And you suggest pushing Hillary this direction is a false argument.



Is there something I'm missing? It just seems to me that you are making an awful lot of fuss in disagreeing with the posts of Sanders supporters.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
328. you..."are upset", "making an awful lot of fuss" your incorrect perceptions, firstly.
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:36 PM
May 2015

i am neither upset or "making a fuss" over disagreeing.

And you suggest pushing Hillary this direction is a false argument.


the false argument i am pointing our is neither obama or hillary sit in the all or nothing argument with minimum wage, banks or wallstreet.

the argument is being made, and incorrectly, that obama and clinton will do nothing about banks, wallstreet, or minimum wage.

do i like sanders pushing more and harder on these issues, and american people standing up for him to get a message across to clinton? sure.

obama has addressed wallstreet, banks and minimum wage. as well hillary. we can argue, not as far as we like or want, but, they do address those issues.

taht would be the false argument. and what i am speaking out against

even WHILE i support sanders.


kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
329. At what point...
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:42 PM
May 2015

Did I say that they weren't for increasing the minimum wage?

You are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth at this point.

You had a very strange reactionary reaction to my post that followed a thread that had a fairly pragmatic goal of trying to keep all candidates progressive.

Again, I don't know who you are trying to help or how.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
331. "be sure that she knows that we want in increased minimum wage,"
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:48 PM
May 2015

"You had a very strange reactionary reaction to my post"

re read the comments. my ONLY point was hillary TOO will address minimum wage. lets not make it an all sanders, nothing clinton argument.

nothing reactionary to addressing the fact you addressed the argument all or nothing. sanders is ALL for economic. clinton ignorant, lets remind her. that is not correct. i challenged that and only that.

now.... look at your replies to me. assumptions and judgment thru out.

this could have stopped after my first reply to you, if you had said, yes. clinton does stand for an increase in minimum wage, but sanders will push her more

that is ALL

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
333. ha. what a trip. you fug up hte argument all over the place with something so very simple
Tue May 26, 2015, 05:55 PM
May 2015

to accuse me of stuff and then...

meh

whatever. right?

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
334. See previous post.
Tue May 26, 2015, 06:03 PM
May 2015

Still done with you. Glad you can convince yourself you won something. There might already be a prize of somekind heading your way.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
295. Sanders seems cool
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:45 PM
May 2015

but some of his supporters on this site are intent on making it impossible to support him. I just watched this. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017267953

All spot on. They don't talk about any of that. Instead, they spend their time insulting people. I don't watch television. My only exposure to Sanders is through print media and what his supporters on this site say, and the politics they present is incredibly ugly and exclusionary. I understand that is not who Sanders is but who they are, but it's very difficult not to let it influence my view of the candidate they support.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
303. I could make the same argument about Hillary supporters
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:18 PM
May 2015

Some of them are very pushy about it and dismissive.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
308. I see a lot of nonsense posted about the election
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:28 PM
May 2015

including by Clinton supporters. What I have not seen from them are the insults and contemptuous dismissal. You could say the same, but it wouldn't make it true.

So if all you care about it tit for tat, fine. I suspect most of this has nothing to do with the election and all about creating an in-crowd of people who see themselves as superior to the rest of humanity. As I told Rhett, I won't be applying for admission into the country club. I'll be staying in the kitchen with the help.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
314. I don't project class onto someones arguments
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:10 PM
May 2015

I look for the numbers. If the polices are in support of the working poor and the working class then that is where I put my support. I don't know anything about Rhett. I was working off of his arguments. If you know something that I do not then fine.

I do have a little difficulty buying into anyone that is making an all/none argument. I could find people that claim to support both candidates that are either doing a very bad job of arguing that. That you cannot makes me scratch my head a bit.

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
362. I guess we will miss him when he leaves DU if HRC gets the nom.
Wed May 27, 2015, 02:38 AM
May 2015

After all, he wouldn't vote for a fascist would he?

stonecutter357

(12,682 posts)
172. Do you mind if i twitter the bernie sanders campaign
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:00 AM
May 2015

Do you mind if i twitter the bernie sanders campaign your quot?
just in case rhett o rick
15. And we are willing to sell our souls to Goldman-Sachs-O-Gold for the ability

View profile
to say that. Haven't you learned that not all Democrats want to reduce poverty, save American jobs, punish torturers and war criminals? It isn't enough to have just any Democrat in the White House. It's important to have one that supports the people the 99% and not Goldman-Sachs and the Wall Street Gang. How far into poverty are you willing to let our children slide before you recognize that there are some Democrats that serve Wall Street and not Main Street?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
254. I think one reason that Sen Sanders is running is because he knows that the
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:56 AM
May 2015

other candidate won't help the people. Maybe there will be some progress on social issues but not on the sweeping inequality that is literally killing the lower classes.

The Oligarchs want our resources. They don't care that we have 22% of our children living in poverty. If they are allowed to continue their quest to steal our resources, the poverty rate will climb.

Sen Sanders is the only candidate that is willing to fight Goldman-Sachs and the Wall Street Gang.

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
286. Twitter this quote as well...
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:19 PM
May 2015

The Sanders campaign would likely use such a well thought, incisive quote...

"Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6658778

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
310. I agree with you. We are currently headed for fascism and voting to support the
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:42 PM
May 2015

status quo won't change that course. The Sen Sanders campaign knows this and in fact, Sen Sanders is running to try to fix that.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
20. FFS
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:46 PM
May 2015

Bernie Sanders would pick better justices than Hillary.

Senator Sanders stands a better chance in the general election than Hillary Clinton.
Hillary Clinton couldn't even beat the black man with a Muslim sounding name in the Democratic primaries, much less the generals.

Republicans want her as our candidate because they know they will slaughter us at the ballot box.

No Republican will cross over for Hillary. They will for Bernie. Many independents and new voters will get behind Bernie.

Bernie is better on social issues than Hillary And he stands above her on the economy, which is what this election will be about.

Hillary = oblivious
Bernie = gets it

beaglelover

(3,436 posts)
43. FFS, you are in for a very rude awakening if you somehow manage to get Bernie the D nomination for
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:59 PM
May 2015

POTUS. He will be absolutely crushed in the general election. Just because a group here on DU are very enthusiastic for him, the general population just needs to hear the word 'socialist' and Bernie is toast come election day. It really is not that difficult to understand that he is unelectable.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
157. At this point in time...
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:26 AM
May 2015

my rude awakening came with my son's wife trapped on a plane not being able to land at DFW airport.

Her flight was due at 3:30 pm. It finally landed just after 11:pm.

Nothing you have to say concerns me.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
205. Holy crap-how did that plane stay in the air for seven-and-a-half extra hours without refueling?
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:38 AM
May 2015

And what caused that kind of a delay?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
177. And what makes him so much less electable than Ted Cruz?
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:17 AM
May 2015

Tell me, what makes the republican lineup so magnificent?

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
161. That is what I have been experiencing.
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:35 AM
May 2015

Right now I am happy that my son and his wife are still alive.

brooklynite

(93,843 posts)
300. FWIW-I would NEVER assume a candidate I support was doing well because of what my friends say...
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:05 PM
May 2015

As you're probably aware, I do a lot of financial support of candidates and get a lot a requests, so I make my decisions based on cold hard crunching of data. I'll be happy to support the most progressive candidate of those who can actually get elected, but I need solid data that shows a path forward. I don't see one for Bernie and nobody's offered me one beyond "people are yearning" generalities.

brooklynite

(93,843 posts)
360. I thought everyone knew me...I get enough criticism for it
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:21 AM
May 2015

I'm a 1%er (not a boast; context); my wife and I are deep pockets funders for competitive Democrats nationwide (we'll probably spend about $100,000 this cycle). That means someone progressive like Warren in Massachusetts or Grayson in his safe district in Florida, but it means someone like Third Wayer Jeanne Shaheen in New Hampshire. It means I have close contacts with DCCC, DSCC and DGA; it also means I have close contacts with the Clinton campaign. And it means I do a lot of research into fundraising, polling and race ratings from a variety of sources. Bernie Sanders is a nice guy (I've had a private dinner with him), but his ability to raise the funds to compete in large States where retail campaigning is impractical appears limited, and his perceived left-wing stance is going to make him a harder sell in States that are more conservative than Vermont.

Paka

(2,760 posts)
176. My teabagger BIL completely dismisses Bernie.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:17 AM
May 2015

He is scared of HRC and hopes Bernie will win the primary enough that he recently expressed to me that he might register as a democrat for the primary so he can vote for him. I'm trying to promote that idea to encourage him.

On the other hand, every new voter and independent I encounter favors Bernie. As he gets more exposure, Bernie can only go up, whereas Hillary can only go down.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
218. This Paka...
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:24 AM
May 2015

Bernie is the "Real Deal".

I will not be dissuaded by the "only Hillary can win" crap on DU.

There are way too many Third Way, Reagan Democrats on DU for my liking.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
278. Frankly, this is actually not a strong argument.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:03 PM
May 2015

I disagree with most of the posts under your post here that are both pro-Hillary or pro-Bernie.


There are not that many hard core republican voters that are going to cross parties these days. Most of them inform themselves through Fox news and aren't really interested in debate or discussion. Where we can win is by getting our base fired up and by getting people that aren't as excited about politics enthusiastic about issues that the majority of people care about. Hell, if we could get the working poor to show up and vote then we could take a majority in both houses of congress.

When we start worrying about attracting supposedly moderate republicans we are already losing the fight strategically in order to make some tiny tactical victory. Any republican that still calls themselves a republican, given the current insanity of that party, isn't someone that is going to be convinced out of their theocratic, paranoid, randroid fantasy terribly easily.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
217. Anyone we nominate can do that.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:12 AM
May 2015

HRC has no special appeal, and gets no support that wouldn't automatically go to anyone else we chose.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
222. In a nutshell.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:49 AM
May 2015

Republicans want her to be our candidate.

It killed them when the black man with the Muslim sounding name beat them.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
299. I am supporting Bernie BECAUSE of the SC. Hillary cannot win the GE. She has no crossover
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:53 PM
May 2015

appeal and if we were to make the mistake of falling again for the old 'but he can't win because he won't have the money' garbage, we will get a Republican in 2016.

All Bernie needs now is an introduction to the American people and the more people get to know him, the higher his polls are going. We have nearly a year to introduce him, without corporate money, to the people and I am confident he will win the primary and then easily defeat any one of the Right Wing clowns currently lining up for the WH race.

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
4. What do you consider "quickly?"
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:24 PM
May 2015

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The primary will be what it will be. It doesn't matter if someone wins in the first month or at the convention. That person is still the winner. Would slowly "rejecting Bernie and crowning Hillary" make you feel better?

Principle is only a part of the consideration in a presidential race. That's why Kucinich never won a state in two attempts. He didn't even win a delegate in 2008.

We are all (mostly) the American people. We all have a say and we don't all agree with your narrative.

The comment about "every important issue will have been ruled on" is one of the worst thought out comments I have ever seen on DU. Nothing important will ever happen again? OK.

Too many Democrats want to feel good about losing. In your case you don't want to lose too quickly. But losing is still losing.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
5. With your attitude the American people will surely lose.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:28 PM
May 2015

You don't even want to fight the good fight. Bernie is willing to do that and that's why so many of us are behind him. He won't accept defeat before he tries. And if everyone would rally behind him he won't be defeated. So why are you resigned to having him lose?

If people want what is truly good for this country and its people they will support Bernie. Supporting Hillary is compromising way too much and settling for another corporate centrist. That isn't going to bring this country back to where it needs to be.

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
7. Who are the American people?
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:32 PM
May 2015

I haven't discouraged him from running or people from supporting him. I was just trying to find out what the OP meant by "quickly." Not that we really have any control over timing.

Do you think it is possible that people that want what is truly good for this country might support someone other than Bernie? Did you know some of those people even support republicans?

Your narrative about compromise and centrism is not universally accepted.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
37. Who are the American people? What do you mean by that?
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:56 PM
May 2015

I appreciate you not discouraging him from running, but you did state to the OP that they just want to lose slower, which is kind of implying that. Also it is stating that there is no way Bernie can win and I disagree with that. I believe the people will get fired up with him. Unfortunately he will have the party leadership and the media working against him.

If you don't agree about compromise and centrism, make the case for how Hillary fights for the American people (whoever they are!) more than Bernie does, and how she is not centrist.

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
50. We are all the American people.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:03 PM
May 2015

And the OP doesn't speak for all of us. My interpretation of the OP was that it was important for Hillary to not win too quickly. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't think he has a good chance of winning, but Obama didn't have the best chance in 2008 and he pulled it out.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
55. Yes we are. My interpretation was that we need to fight for him to show we support his ideas
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:05 PM
May 2015

and positions, which are decidedly liberal.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
28. Of course it is. I'm not going to write someone else's opinion.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:53 PM
May 2015

And if I post someone else's opinion I will include a link.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
6. HRC supporters don't support that.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:31 PM
May 2015

You're mistaking their enthusiasm for the notion of an unchallenged coronation. IOW, their non-excitement for other candidates doesn't equal unchallenged coronation.

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
10. I agree
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:33 PM
May 2015

I don't think people realize that Bernie running helps Hillary in the long term. No one can say she wasn't challenged from the left. And if Bernie wins, great.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
18. Then you do have the right to change your mind, instead of Super-Gluing your mouth to HRC's
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:44 PM
May 2015

derriere....

Just listen to the debates. If Clinton doesn't offer solutions, and Bernie offers better solutions, better choices, better path of things to get done, then do you want the same old crap we've had for the last 15 years, a stagnant Congress with a corporatist President, OR do you want to try to break the gridlock and get things done the way the people of America has been asking for the last 30-40 years?

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
56. I'm actually still undecided, although the Bernie crowd...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:06 PM
May 2015

Is sure turning me off. Luckily I love Sanders but still haven't made up my mind. Waiting for debates.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
69. That's exactly what I would suggest. Wait for the debates.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:11 PM
May 2015

Don't worry about the DU $CANDIDATE_OF_CHOICE supporters. They are but a small number of what reflects America, I guess. But social networking is a key piece that Bernie has effectively used to spread his message. You may be relying a dying medium to get your information, but for us, it's now on the 'Net.

Bernie has been doing this for a very long time, and I trust him to represent me and my ideals.

I know of Hillary because I had a relative working for the Clinton WH in the first term, and she enjoyed her experience there. I agreed with some of her policies, but there are key policies where Ms. Clinton and I differ. Foreign policy and economic policies is where I differ.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
76. Your vote is your own but if a HRC supporter accuses you of having your lips glued to ...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:15 PM
May 2015

Your vote is your own but if a HRC supporter accuses you of having your lips glued to somebody's ass please let me know.


 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
215. I tried to alert when he said that, but it had already been alerted on.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:06 AM
May 2015

"eloydude" does not speak for Bernie Sanders supporters as a group.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
59. What? What's there to edit? It's PG-rated..
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:07 PM
May 2015

Offensive to the Hillary supporters.. I suspect they may need this.....

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
80. That's where you are confusing passion for childish.....
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:16 PM
May 2015

We Bernie supporters have the fire and the passion.

Where's the fire and the passion for Hillary supporters right now?

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
87. We have plenty, we just use it in a mature way.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:20 PM
May 2015

No Hillary supporter on this board has ever accused a supporter of Bernie of having their lips glued to his ass. That was the most pathetic and childish thing I have ever read on this board and I have been around for a long time.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
93. When they don't answer a simple question: "What makes Hillary better than Bernie"
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:24 PM
May 2015

and using the debunked excuses, and there's really no answer, then they start to pound you down with stupid garbage or find a distraction method, or Gish Gallop or whatever to beat you down.

brooklynite

(93,843 posts)
268. Clinton supporters have frequently offered reasons to support her over Sanders
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:27 AM
May 2015

The fact that you choose to ignore them isn't our fault.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
235. No doubt, your petulant and peevish actions are thankfully not shared by Sanders.
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:20 AM
May 2015

No doubt, your petulant and peevish actions are thankfully not shared by Sanders-- or any other candidate.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
94. Jury Results
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:25 PM
May 2015

On Mon May 25, 2015, 10:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Then you do have the right to change your mind, instead of Super-Gluing your mouth to HRC's
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6727729

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is over the top for a new poster making accusations all over this thread and can't back them up.

JaneyVee did not deserve this.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon May 25, 2015, 10:22 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal attack.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not sure what the alerter read into the post, but I am not seeing it.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: There were better ways to word that. Anyone newbie with 262 posts has had plenty of time to learn some DU netiquette.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Coming on a little strong, but it is a primary so gonna let it ride..
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Posters new or old all have the same rights on this board. If you don't like that then you need to refer to Skinner for further details.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh boo fucking hoo.......
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This poster is using crude, rude, offensive and abusive language to try to denigrate a DUer who doesn't deserve insult. I think the admins might want to think about instituting a program where new posters, especially, after getting a post hidden, have to digitally sign a document stating that they have read and understand the Terms of Service for this site, and if they don't do that, they can't post anymore. Skinner, Elad, EarlG--the trolling is getting out of hand. People who talk like this aren't Sanders supporters. Sanders would never talk like this and he would disavow anyone who did. HIDE.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
121. My comment was meant to be the nicest way possible..
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:49 PM
May 2015

If you are lock, stock, and barrel for Hillary before the debates, and won't even consider other candidates, then it's a problem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6621269

P.S., since that comment, Bernie's numbers have indeed risen, at the expense of Clinton.

It will only continue to rise as they see Bernie more and more... hence, my question: "What makes Hillary better than Bernie" - and I never get their arguments for Hillary.. only to demonize him... and quickly debunked...

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
128. No, it is not a problem. You are the one with the problem
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:53 PM
May 2015

Build your own candidate up instead of disparaging Hillary and her supporters. My vote is none of your business!

brooklynite

(93,843 posts)
269. I see...whereas the Sanders supporters are thoughtfully keeping an open mind...right?
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:29 AM
May 2015

In any event, what I'd learn in the debates is irrelevant. I have no issue with any of Bernie's positions. My concern is that he won't get elected to implement any of them.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
9. You're on a site where 90-95 percent of the people support Sanders
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:33 PM
May 2015

and you're so bothered that a few support another candidate, you make up a scenario about a "coronation."

I cannot for the life of me understand why people can't just wait for the fucking primaries rather than playing fantasy presidential elections day in and day out on this site. Primaries are scheduled. They will take place. Candidates will run against Clinton. Those are facts. The results will be decided by those voters, and amazingly they actually let some people vote who aren't on DU! Whatever scenario you concoct in your head has no bearing on those elections. I don't see what the point of this sort of nonsense is.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
12. Why do you just not respond?
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:35 PM
May 2015

Do you lie in wait so that you can exercise your poison pen?

Can you just let people express themselves without all the fucking vituperation?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
13. In other words
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:38 PM
May 2015

How dare I discuss the actual elections.

Put me on ignore. I have as much of a right to respond as anyone.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
41. Difference: Your response is to attack the poster for his feelings.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:59 PM
May 2015

You do not address the issue, the question of the OP.

It is a spiteful, poisonous attack on the nature of the poster.

That's the issue.

And if what you say is true, if personal questions such as your 'For the life of me, I don't know why people like you write such things!' are all fine, there is no problem with me responding similarly to your response.

Ad nauseum.

My point is, if you don't like the OP's question, why don't you just not respond. Why do you have to spew poison everywhere?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
132. I responded to his point
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:56 PM
May 2015

Which does not conform to reality. You made a personal attack based on nothing but personal animus. I get you don't think I have a right to speak in public. Tough shit. I don't care.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
147. BS. You can respond all you want and so can I.
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:10 AM
May 2015

You attacked with great venom against the OP personally.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
84. The whole thread is a callout built on a false premise or a straw man, ergo:
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:18 PM
May 2015
I'd like to have HRC supporters here come in to this thread and actually make a case for the idea that giving their candudate the unchallenged coronation they think she's entitled to



I asked for a list of posters who are demanding a coronation and all I got was obscurantism, casuistry, and sophistry as responses.
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
236. Bemusing that you hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:22 AM
May 2015

"Can you just let people express themselves without all the fucking vituperation?:

Bemusing that you hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to. No doubt, you rationalize a wonderfully creative distinction without a difference to better maintain that pretense.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
23. Of course you want to "wait for the primary". Money wins and the billionaires have unlimited
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:47 PM
May 2015

money to see that Clinton is elected. Doesn't that set off any warning bells? Rhetorical question. Some don't care about the state of the nation as long as their authoritarian leader wins. They don't care that 22% of American children live in poverty but are willing to give Goldman-Sachs more government money. Those that support Goldman-Sachs and the Wall Street Gang don't support the 99%.

There are two sides to this class war and Goldman-Sachs and the Wall Street Gang are not on our side. Whose side are you on?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
71. Are you saying you don't want people to vote now?
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:11 PM
May 2015

You want to do away with elections? I am not engaged in the great and noble struggle of the 10 percent vs. the 1 percent. In fact, I don't give even a little shit about the imperious upper-middle class that goes around insulting the poor and people of color. I stand with the poor and subaltern, against the class project of white upper-middle and middle-class that works to subordinate the majority for their own economic benefit, while tossing out a few foodstamps to the poor to placate them.

I do not stand with people who talk about taking America back to the days of "real Democrats," when those Democrats also supported Jim Crow and the denial of rights to the majority of Americans. I stand against the elite who wants to return America to a time when their race and class prospered at the expense of the majority. I stand with the working class, the poor, and people of color--not the self entitled country club set who treats those groups with disdain. I stand against people who think they and they alone determine political priorities, who refer to African Americans as "uninformed" because they don't support their choice for a political position.

Anyone who so imperiously dismisses the rights of the majority to make their own political decisions and insults anyone who doesn't set everything aside to promote their own class interests is a side I want no part of. Sanders biggest liability is some of his supporters, and people like you are working assiduously to turn as many voters off as possible. No wonder you don't want elections. You merely want to substitute yourself and those exactly like you as the new political elite. You have no more concern for the lives of the majority than do the bankers, and your continual dismissal and insults demonstrate that.

I am not on the side of Goldman Sachs and the self-entitled elite, which is why I will never be on your side. That after all is what you want, isn't it? You can't possibly think that insulting people less privileged than yourselves is actually going to bring people to your cause. It only serves to exclude, which is precisely your goal.

I will not applying for membership in the country club. Instead, I stand with the help--where I came from--looking forward to the day when the self-entitled get their due.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
257. I didn't say any of those things. I can see how if I did, then you would have something to complain
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:01 AM
May 2015

about. I think that's called a Strawman Argument.

I asked whose side you are on in this terrible class war? Goldman-Sachs' and the Clinton billionaire club's or on the side of the people?

beaglelover

(3,436 posts)
30. The Bernie supports here come across, to me at least, as very young and
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:54 PM
May 2015

immature and idealistic. I do admire their enthusiasm and hope they remain enthusiastic and vote for the D candidate even if that is HRC. Time will tell.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
47. This "very young and immature and idealistic" Sanders supporter...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:01 PM
May 2015

... went door to door for Bobby Kennedy. And I don't mean junior.

Assumptions are for fools.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
156. Exactly and I just put another one in ignore for calling us all chldish. They really know how to
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:26 AM
May 2015

win the hearts and mind of voters.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
86. That isn't the demographic of this site
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:19 PM
May 2015

Which is older and whiter than the majority of the nation. Clearly Sanders has many supporters who are not young, but seniors and middle-aged.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
45. Because there are a lot of posts that say we have to vote for Hillary because we don't want the GOP
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:00 PM
May 2015

to appoint SCOTUS justices. By saying that they are ignoring the fact that we have a primary and in that primary have the choice of several Dems, ALL of which would be appointing justices when elected president.

So I agree with the frustration of people not waiting for the "fucking primaries". In fact, I'm MORE frustrated because I see people refusing to even acknowledge that the primary exists!

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
83. Really? Because there are far fewer Clinton supporters
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:18 PM
May 2015

than Sanders supporters on this site.

I would agree such posts are likewise nonsensical. People will, and should, vote for whomever they choose in the primary. I hope that in the general that all get on board with the nominee, whomever ends up being selected.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
85. I'm not sure what the amount of supporters each has has to do with anything, but in any case,
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:19 PM
May 2015

I agree that no one has the primary until the votes are counted.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
92. It's reflected in the numbers of threads and responses
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:23 PM
May 2015

Since there are considerably fewer Clinton supporters, there are fewer pro-Clinton threads and comments. So the angst appears to be over the opinion of an even smaller subset within that small group of Clinton supporters. It appears to me that people have trouble with the fact that support for their own candidate isn't unanimous.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
97. That's not what it is for me, it's the fact that a lot Hillary supporters post as if she's running
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:25 PM
May 2015

against the GOP right now.

I will admit that I do have trouble with the fact that politically 'active' Dems would go for another corporate Dem rather than one who fights for the people against the banskters and huge corporations.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
112. I have trouble with the fact that so many vest so much
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:40 PM
May 2015

in who gets the nomination, as though that itself is transformative. I just don't think it matters that much. The problems in our society are far more pervasive than a single election or a single presidency. Focusing so obsessively on that office ignores the profound role that money plays in our political system by reducing it to a contest among two members of the political elite. I can imagine there were similar discussions eight years ago, similar claims, and Clinton wasn't elected. Yet did the role of money in politics lessen? No, it got worse, and it will continue to get worse as long as people keep pretending the next president can change it.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
150. That sounds like an argument for it doesn't matter who we elect
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:16 AM
May 2015

Nothing will change...so we might as well elect HRC.
Just surrender and learn to love oligarchy.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
160. I think party matters
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:35 AM
May 2015

the individual president, less so.

What does electing Sanders do about the fact we live under a capitalist state, what you call oligarchy? Why would you imagine something like oligarchy is altered by a president?

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
233. Well it can never be altered without a president
Tue May 26, 2015, 08:25 AM
May 2015

Willing to try.
And then there is that thing about faith in the voting system...if people believe like you that it makes no difference what president is elected that we are fucked no matter what, they don't vote...why bother?...and the GOP wins because they don't feel that way at all...they understand that it does matter. That a president with the desire to change things can.

And if people have faith in someone they will come out to vote and the 60% who do not vote do and when they do democrats win at the polls not just for president but congress too.

The president is the leader of the party, and if the president does not want to change things then the party does not matter.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
239. i being one of the people say it ONLY to those that SAY they will not vote clinton if she wins.
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:50 AM
May 2015

so, your particular problem is i address someone that say they will only vote sanders and if hillary wins they will not vote for her.

this is what your problem?

well. i tell you. each and every time i see a poster say

i wont vote clinton. let the rat bastard repugs win

i will say something

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
11. A bad, bad one.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:33 PM
May 2015

It would be like nullifying our principles, our pressure. It would be the left committing suicide.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
14. FYI it's not just Bernie and Hillary...
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:39 PM
May 2015


Also this here:

That a couple of(probably meaningless by 2016, since every important issue will have been ruled on by then) seats on the Supreme Court
As if nothing else could come up. The pukes couldn't possibly think of anything else to screw the American people with.

Yes, the Supreme Court--a life time appt--meaningless. What the fuck universe did I stumble into?
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
27. Roe will be overturned no matter what. Citizens United will never be overturned.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:53 PM
May 2015

(other than through legislation forced through by massive grassroots action)

The Voting Rights Act is reduced to nothingness(and again can only be restored through mass activism).

After that, there's nothing else SCOTUS could possibly deal with that could matter. There simply aren't any major future issues it could ever address that could possibly outweigh having more Middle Eastern blood on our hands.

Same-sex marriage will be the end of SCOTUS' importance. Court seats in an era when the Court will be forever irrelevant aren't worth our souls and anyone's lives.

Besides, HRC doesn't get votes no other Dem couldn't get.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
81. And where do the other...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:17 PM
May 2015

candidates fall in all this? You seem to have left them out. As if the only two that are running are Hillary and Bernie.

As for your answer on the SCOTUS--your 'whatever it doesn't matter' attitude is dangerous. Both Hillary & Bernie have said they'd work to overturn Citizens United--I'm sure the other candidates will too.

How nice for you that you can be so cavalier about the SCOTUS--I won't. Middle Eastern blood is more important than women in back alleys. I can't make that choice, I kinda want both to not happen, but that's just me.

I think I'll wait before declaring anyone a winner/loser etc. I'd like to hear from all the candidates.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
95. I referenced HRC because of the implication that she was the ONLY electable Dem.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:25 PM
May 2015

And that SCOTUS appointments justify accepting conservatism of almost everything else.

No disrespect to the other Dems was intended...it's just that, at this stage of the race, none of them seem to be registering with the voters yet.

And what I said was that SCOTUS will never overturn Citizens United, not that it can't be overturned at all.

The fight for change and the progressive cause is now permanently outside of the court system.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
240. let me understand. you have so little hope for supreme crt, yet, confident sanders can turn u.s.
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:56 AM
May 2015

into denmark with repug house and senate?

is this what you are saying?

we gotta hire sanders, cause he will be able to do all that.

and it oes not matter if we hire clinton cause the supreme crt? meh...

fuck. really dudes. do not tell me the populist is not everything i have been saying it is.

this is become blatantly unrealistic and insulting and controlling.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
26. Show me the post where I demanded a coronation.
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:51 PM
May 2015

I have all night.


I would say a whole lot more but I don't want to run afoul of the terms of service.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
52. When you refused to consider anyone else except Hillary Clinton because she's
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:04 PM
May 2015

"The One" to elect to save the Democratic Party. Oh! SUPREME COURT! Oh! But Bernie's UNELECTABLE! Oh! But Bernie's a SOCIALIST!!!!! SCARY SOCIALIST!!!!

That, to me, shows that you are firmly stuck in the Hillary camp, without any consideration for other candidates that are currently running, which includes Bernie, and his policies and stances on issues are FAR better than Hillary than it will ever be.

The fact that Hillary is heavily entrenched with the 1%, and is palsy-walsy with some of the most disgusting human beings put forth on the planet has me questioning her loyalties to the progressives. Is she for the progressives, or is she giving lip service to the progressives? I suspect the latter.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying what candidate Hillary is selling me, and I certainly know what President Hillary will probably most likely do, and it'll not favor the 99%.

I don't think she has begun to understand income inequality, and it is still a huge issue that is unanswered, specifically, by her.

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
63. No links? Just as I thought!
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:08 PM
May 2015

You got nothing! Quite frankly, our support for Hillary isn't really any of your business now is it?

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
70. I have said, ad nauseum and ad infinitum, I have no desire to tell others how to vote.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:11 PM
May 2015

You and your cronies are trying to bully the rest of us into submission. That's not how I roll in real life and it's damn sure not how I roll on the "internets".


The only ones who ever told me what to do was my mom and dad and they are both dead.

LuvLoogie

(6,854 posts)
187. A President Hillary Clinton will have earned her office.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:53 AM
May 2015

Are you calling her supporters serfs and vassals?

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
75. I'm still waiting on why you prefer Hillary over Bernie...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:14 PM
May 2015

Bernie's issues are outstanding, and poll numbers continue to rise, media can't ignore him much longer.

That's what all the Hillary supporters are avoiding this question: "Why Hillary over Bernie?"

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
79. Your the one who made an accusation against me. Back it up!
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:16 PM
May 2015

If you can not you need to apologize.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
90. Fine. I did a few minutes of research. I found nothing. So I'll be a man, and apologize.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:21 PM
May 2015

Sorry, hrmjustin.

All I can find is references of you not minding Sander in the primary, and only think it can make your *cough* nominee *cough* "stronger".

Somehow, I disagree with that premise.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
100. Perhaps in the future you should think before you make an accusations against a fellow DUer.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:26 PM
May 2015

You have a pleasant evening.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
136. Because there really isn't much differenc between the two candidates.
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:02 AM
May 2015

HRC's polling is dominant and formidable. HRC has a proven record and an excellent resume. HRC is an extremely strong candidate. That's why.

 

eloydude

(376 posts)
140. Bernie can and will win the primaries and blow away the Republicans
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:05 AM
May 2015

I don't think HRC is capable of doing that. She is currently in a "shell" mode - insulating herself from the real world, and not really understanding the issues of income inequality. What's YOUR issue that you care deeply about that Hillary is better than Bernie?

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
143. It's early yet, but please entertain me, and tell me which caucuses and primarys
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:07 AM
May 2015

Senator Sanders will win.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
313. I was denouncing that guy(who I'm pretty sure is actually a rw troll)for his abusive tactics.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:09 PM
May 2015

He was out of line in what he said above.

I was proving that Bernie supporters don't support the kind of things he does.

Guys like that don't listen to politeness.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
48. There are a lot of posts where people say we have to vote for Hillary or else the GOP will appoint
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:02 PM
May 2015

SCOTUS justices. That implies there is no primary or the primary is hers already.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
54. People advocating for HRC is not telling people we need a coronation.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:05 PM
May 2015

Saying Hillary is the only one who can win is not calling for a coronation.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
62. No, that's not what they are saying. They are saying we have to vote for her or else the GOP
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:07 PM
May 2015

will appoint SCOTUS justices.

That is not saying she is the only one who can win. That is skipping the primary entirely.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
73. No, it's giving the primary to her before we even have it. Not the same thing at all.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:12 PM
May 2015

Seriously, you are losing it over Hillary. I used to think you were reasonable but these responses and your 'mischief' - to put it extremely lightly - in that other thread leave me with a completely different take on you. Also the fact that you told me you were completely decided on HRC no matter who else entered the race, showing a closed mindedness.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
82. If you are under the impression that i am upset but your opinion of me then you are sadly
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:17 PM
May 2015

Mistaken!


GOODBYE!

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
88. I'm not under any impressions of your emotions. I'm just telling you like it is.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:20 PM
May 2015

Some of us are honest. Some, not so much.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
246. no. you are not honest. argument is dishonest. i have addressed only the people braggin wont vote
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:25 AM
May 2015

clinton if she WINS the PRIMARY

argue what is being said. do not make up an argument to argue for a win

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
89. He accused you of being closed minded...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:21 PM
May 2015

Compared to the epithets some Sanders supporters throw out like candy that's actually mild.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
91. Sometimes i wonder if it is just time to take the rest of the primary off from DU.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:22 PM
May 2015

Getting sick of being insulted.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
103. That is their raison d'etre, to chase everybody who disagrees with them from this site.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:28 PM
May 2015

That is their raison d'etre, to chase everybody who disagrees with them from this site. If this was real life I would tell those trying to make me leave when I have a right to stay what I have told every bully since I was eight years old; make me.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
110. People aren't this mean in real life.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:35 PM
May 2015

I live in one of the biggest cities in the nation and we are either nice to each other or leave each other alone.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
111. Yeah even here in Brooklyn we are rather polite.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:37 PM
May 2015

DU is going places right now that i don't like.

Not saying i am not without faukt but i did not deserve the crap I got in this thread.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
113. I live in Los Angeles and take public transportation. Most folks are friendly...
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:41 PM
May 2015

I have had conversations with people of all races and all walks of life. Even if they say something I disagree with it I don't insult or disrespect them.

MY aunt used to live on Flatbush Avenue and my grandfather in Brighton Beach. I hear Brooklyn is a hip place now.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
166. Yep. I find the responses in this thread to be jaw-dropping. That anyone thinks that scurrying
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:46 AM
May 2015

around this web site, lying about what posters have said and DEMANDING that pro-Hillary posters state why they support her (as if they have the fucking right to demand anything) is shocking.

I'm honestly starting to think that it's no way these are legitimate Sanders supporters. No way in hell.

JI7

(89,172 posts)
167. of course not, just like how most of the Elizabeth Warren Support is usually just
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:52 AM
May 2015

about attacking other democrats.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
168. Yes, the fight between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters got so hot that many just left.
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:53 AM
May 2015

It seems to me that this arguing is merely going to hurt whoever is the candidate and DU in the end and there will still be a primary even if we all continue to try to destroy each other for the next 18 months.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
225. Really? Should I post the link where you purposely edited your post to make it look like I
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:30 AM
May 2015

responded to something different than what I actually responded to?

Don't play innocent. That was a very intentional move. You apologized for "being wrong" but not for doing the wrong thing, the dishonest edit. You said you looked at it again and saw that you were wrong, but you knew you were editing a post that I had already responded to, it was quite some time after you had responded to me again. Apparently you thought you could get away with it.

As to the closed mindedness, well, you did say no matter what, your mind was made up for Hillary and that was before anyone else had announced at all. That is closed minded. How is it not? It's not an insult, it's a fact.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
224. It's not "he", and hrmjusting told me 2-3 months ago that he was for Hillary end of story.
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:25 AM
May 2015

No matter who else entered the race it didn't matter. That is closed minded. Has nothing to do with who I support, it has to do with being open to the new possibilities, especially when the country's future is at stake.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
248. he is ALLOWED to have made his choice of democratic candidate. for real? you are fuckin on his ass
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:35 AM
May 2015

because he decided what democratic candidate he supports?

wrong!!!!

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
336. well sure. he is allowed. but then, he is closed minded after all. forget that he sees the value in
Tue May 26, 2015, 06:19 PM
May 2015

clinton, he must must must give others a chance or well, you know... closed minded.

you know exactly what you did in your post

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
342. Weird. I must have missed the post where you apologized for your false accusation of me.
Tue May 26, 2015, 07:36 PM
May 2015

And pointing out a fact is not an insult, it's an observation.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
343. oh bullshit. you insulted him for no reason but he refuses to do what you want him to do. then
Tue May 26, 2015, 07:42 PM
May 2015

make yourself the victim. just no.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
345. What is it that I asked him to do? Please quote me. And where did I claim I was a victim?
Tue May 26, 2015, 08:14 PM
May 2015

Please quote me.

Thanks!

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
348. So no quotes? And no apology for the false accusations?
Tue May 26, 2015, 08:27 PM
May 2015

Ah, so you don't hold yourself up to any standard you attempt to force onto others even though the other person never made the statements and demands you claim they did?

Good to know.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
349. you do not have a gotcha. what you have is you insulting a man for his choices.
Tue May 26, 2015, 08:39 PM
May 2015

it is clear to everyone reading this thread.

and your little run of gotcha gotcha? not so much.

i can stand with what has been posted.

Response to cui bono (Reply #224)

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
180. Let me ask you this.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:24 AM
May 2015

If a poster says he wants to smack Hillary in the back of the head is he advocating for violence against Hillary


Note to jury this happened they other day here on DU.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
182. No, not if the person was just describing his emotional reaction.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:32 AM
May 2015

A return question: If a poster makes a passive aggressive insinuation, is he a gutless coward?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
184. No strong reaction of horror at war and the deaths of innocents in Iraq...
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:40 AM
May 2015

Yup, that's exactly what I would expect from someone supporting Hillary in the Primaries against a man that was opposed to the war that KILLED and maimed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children and ruined the lives of many, many more times than that FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.

Congratulations at your comically inappropriate sense of proportion.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
185. Interesting post but if i am not mistaken i think your reaction was about her laughing about gaddafi
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:44 AM
May 2015

death and not iraq.


And i completely agree with you the Iraq war was wrong and i lost a cousin in the war almost 10 years ago.

I completely understand your anger at war but my reaction against war is not to want to hit someone in the head.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
186. True indeed. Such expressions of joy in the face of war and death do make me ill.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:49 AM
May 2015

I am sorry to hear that you are supporting someone in the Primaries (when you have a clear choice) that was partially responsible for your cousin's tragic death and is, in fact, much more likely to proceed with another "popular" war when the need arises than would Bernie Sanders.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
189. Yes, but it isn't about that. It is about judging a person by their reactions
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:59 AM
May 2015

similar to how you have judged me, the big difference being that I am not asking for your trust that I should be at the helm of the most destructive military force in Earth's history.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
191. Then don't vote for her.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:02 AM
May 2015

But if you think the answer to someone saying something you don't like is to smack them then you are wrong.

Vote for Sanders and say Hillary 7s wrong. That is whwt this site is for.

But when you say things like you did the other day you will be called out on it.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
192. Your evasiveness is...satisfying.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:07 AM
May 2015

You are, to me, a poser.

Your sense of moral outrage about "violence" (smacks to friends and thought crimes) is belied by the ease with which you pave over truly monumental acts of violence.

Your parting "Then don't vote for her" is really going out with a whimper.

Vote as YOU like as well, but do not expect that YOU will not be called out for your own little part in actual, real death and misery.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
193. "YOU will not be called out for your own little part in actual, real death and misery"
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:11 AM
May 2015

Please proceed sir if you can.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
194. I feel the case has been made.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:14 AM
May 2015

You have a choice here, before the GE, to vote for someone who neither votes for the continued use of cluster munitions nor votes for giving a blank check to clear madmen from the opposition party to go to war.

And yet, you have made up your mind.

THAT is why your sanctimony rings so false and you give the impression of being a poser, as opposed to an honest person with flaws.

Such is the case with religious people in many cases, I am afraid.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
196. Yeah how dare i have a different opinion then you.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:18 AM
May 2015

I feel so ashamed.

i mean how could i be so foolish!

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
198. Now I'm starting to feel bad.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:24 AM
May 2015

Once a poster responds with that, it is actually quite pathetic.

No, of course, you can have a different opinion.

But calling you out, that's what we do, right? Right?

When we feel it is "justified" I mean.

And I'm pretty sure that it's justified when we're discussing decisions of great moment as opposed to thought crimes and head slaps between friends 30 years ago. Right?

Your sense of perspective has got to be at least that functional, I think.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
202. Not everyone is in your time zone. But go to sleep and have sweet, sweet dreams
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:33 AM
May 2015

undisturbed by war and cluster bombs blowing off the hands of little children.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
209. Good god
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:53 AM
May 2015

What a sanctimonious pile of crap.

Someone suggested sending Sanders links to some of the bile that is spewed in his name. This would be a perfect choice.
I feel certain he would be sickened by what some of his supporters say. You all seem determined to ensure as few people vote for him as possible. I have never seen any group of people less effective at championing a candidate in my life. All you do is insult. and you clearly are furious that anyone dares to hold an opinion you do not control.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
250. here i am a supporter. i am only still a suport cause i keep taking the insults, dismissals of my
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:42 AM
May 2015

issues, and so much more. just the absurdity the argument has become.

i stay a sanders supporter regardless of all this shit. but you know.... what a turn off. it is a turn off for me. it is a fuckin turn off. and the irony? this is a thread, and sander supporter posts..... DEMANDING sander be given a chance as they do everything to insult and dismiss the very people they make this demand off.

it is fuckin theater. a tragic Shakespeare. tragic, or brilliant in the irony.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
315. Nobody has insulted you.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:12 PM
May 2015

You've insisted(based solely on what people in that "populist" group, a group that is not a Bernie Sanders group)that people who back economic justice don't care about fighting racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia.

It's been repeated shown that Bernie supporters all join you in insisting on fighting the oppressions you fight against, yet you won't stop pretending that you're being persecuted.

Please stop. We are on your side and there isn't an argument here. Please, for the love of everybody, just stop.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
317. meh... to the supreme court. no. that is not support to
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:16 PM
May 2015

"fighting racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia. "

YOU started an OP with... meh, to supreme court.

please STOP, telling me you are on my side.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
319. What I said was that by 2016, the court probably will have decided everything already.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:24 PM
May 2015

Can you really imagine any issues ever coming to the court AFTER the gutting of the Voting Rights Act and after the likely death of Roe that will ever provide any chance of a victory for those of us who fight against oppression?

The Court will have dealt with everything by then. Even if we do get to appoint more justices, they'll be nothing left for them to decide about. That's all I'm saying.

We'll have to fight in other venues.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
326. we have a lot working its way up form state laws passed. better damn well have a supreme crt
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:24 PM
May 2015

friendly to minorities.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
344. yes. and i have not argued that either. you are the one to dismiss supreme crt in YOUR OP.
Tue May 26, 2015, 07:45 PM
May 2015

which is what the populist are doing continuously and has us others speaking out.

i never.... NEVER said sanders would not also put in a good supreme crt choice. EVER. got that? do you HEAR that yet????

i am fuckin supporting the man and if i did not think he would EQUALLY take care of the supreme crt, i would NOT being supporting him.

does that make sense to you?

YOU are the one that threw the supreme crt away in YOUR argument and what i addressed.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
244. again. i ONLY comment on those that brag they will not vote dem if clinton wins. a little honesty
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:20 AM
May 2015

in your accusations will take you a LONG way

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
34. It would say that the message would be that democratic voters quickly rejected Senator Sanders,
Mon May 25, 2015, 10:55 PM
May 2015

and chose to elect HRC instead.

The rest is just your opinion.

HRC is not unchallenged, and nobody is saying she is entitled to anything.

As of this date, however, the majority of democratic voters prefer her.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
51. Your post discounts the fact that they are very far apart on the political spectrum.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:04 PM
May 2015

Hillary is center while Bernie is left. If we don't fight for Bernie we will put the nail in the coffin of the Dem Party as a party for the working people.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
58. No. I don't agree with you on that.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:06 PM
May 2015

HRC is left.

There really isn't much difference between the two candidates, except that HRC has more experience and is killing it in the polls.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
65. She is not left. She is center, perhaps slightly left of because of social issues.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:10 PM
May 2015

There is so much more difference than that.

Hillary is a hawk, Bernie is a dove.

Hillary has lots of ties to Wall Street. She appointed a Monsanto person to a position on her campaign. Bernie fights Wall Street and wants them regulated and prosecuted.

Bernie is killing it in the polls too. He rose 10 points in a week or so and he hasn't even really started his campaign yet.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
74. She is left.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:14 PM
May 2015

And polls show that Democrats who are very left, and moderately left, are supporting her. She is winning in every single demographic there is. By very large margins, to boot.

The wall street and Monsanto stuff is silly. But I will grant you that Senator Sanders was right on Iraq.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
145. Because she is a fighter for everyday people,
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:09 AM
May 2015

not Wall Street. And her record clearly shows that.

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
104. Here's a side question
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:29 PM
May 2015

Can doves win in 2016? I think people will be some amped up about ISIS and international affairs that someone perceived as weak on defense will have trouble.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
67. She is very well respected and admired, olddots.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:10 PM
May 2015

That is important in elections. People vote for people they respect and admire.

She has a wonderful record and has been a tremendous advocate for the Democratic party.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
98. That is the way one wins elections
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:26 PM
May 2015

By being more popular and thus generating more votes.

I haven't made up my mind who to support as I'm not sure who all is running yet other than Senators Sanders and Clinton, but I don't think we should crown anybody yet. The primaries/caucuses will determine who has the most support among Democratic primary voters. That is the one who should be the nominee.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
245. political demographs in a political campaign and race is significant, right? omg, that is discussed.
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:22 AM
May 2015

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
60. I see those who post as if they are for Bernie does not hear him when he ask to cease the bad
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:07 PM
May 2015

Mouthing of other candidates. It sure does not help Bernie. I am backing Hillary but I don't think Bernie is the type of guy who says things about others like this, maybe I do mot have a good picture of Bernie.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
78. Stating a candidates past and present positions, policies and associations is not bad mouthing.
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:15 PM
May 2015

Even if you think they are all negative, which you seem to think since you think they are bad mouthing. In which case I would have to wonder why you support her.

When sizing up candidates one must look at the strengths and weaknesses of each, the good and the bad of each.

But there have been a lot of posts where people are just giving her the primary.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
152. I believe he said criticism is fair game, and Hillary brings plenty to criticize - she is running
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:19 AM
May 2015

as a pro-Wall Street candidate who is a former lawyer for Walmart, paid speaker for Goldman Sachs and principal architect behind the DLC and Third Way corporate centered group known as the New Democrats.

Just because these organizations continue to be very, very bad for America by working against the best interests of the majority of Americans, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.




whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
170. On why he criticizes other candidates, namely Hillary Clinton:
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:55 AM
May 2015

“I will tell you that I have never run a negative political ad in the state of Vermont in my life. People of Vermont know that. I just don't think that that's what politics is about. So, will I criticize Hillary Clinton on her position of TPP, or the lack of position? Will I criticize her on her views of Wall Street? Will I criticize her on foreign policy? That's what democracy is about. But taking cheap shots at people, making it personal, I don't think that's what politics should be about.”

http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2015/05/24/sen-bernie-sanders-i-vt-to-brian-stelter-on-cnns-reliable-sources-you-have-abc-cbs-and-nbc-not-devoting-one-minute-to-the-most-significant-trade-agreement-in-the-history-of-the-usa/

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
251. you might want to reflect on personal insults not only in the OP but several posts that has nothing
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:47 AM
May 2015

to do with issues. it is the drama of it that is being used to attack the supporters of clinton. not clinton issues.

that is a poor way to run a campaign. i have been saying this since sanders declared. that is how sander supporters on du, have taken the race. not issues.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
252. serious! by gosh. dismiss the third branch of our govt with a MEH... fuck you. totally series11!!11!
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:50 AM
May 2015

some of us do not take that very seriously.

we keep telling you all. you keep demanding we not take the supreme court seriousy.

when we say no, you call us names.

ya

taking that seriously, i say in very heavy sarcasm and emphatic, .... no!

onecaliberal

(32,478 posts)
109. What we would be saying in my opinion is that we are hunky dory with corporations owning POTUS
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:35 PM
May 2015

Forever.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
114. Hillary will continue to turn our nation over to corporations to manage, those on the right
Mon May 25, 2015, 11:42 PM
May 2015

call this being moderate and electable.



 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
255. obama went after wallstreet and bankers and only got so far. will be the same for clinton AND
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:56 AM
May 2015

sanders.

you do not get to make obama null and void with wallstreet or bankers any more than you get to make the clinton, before she has done anything.

i am for sanders. i will get my supreme court, and will be interesting to watch him attempt to do something about

corporate
wallstreet
bankers

i do not think he willl be a lot different in middle east. obama thought he could do more. he did only so much.

but there is a lot of myth in what a clinton presidency would be.

duers are allowed to address the myth being created.

AGAIN

i am a sanders supporter

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
146. That we're happy with wars, pollution, for profit health insurance, wall street rule,
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:09 AM
May 2015

concession of our constitution to foreign corporations, low wages, and privatization of everything, as long as abortion rights are preserved (of course Sanders would also preserve abortion rights, but try not to mention that)

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
155. And Hillary has shown to be willing to change her views on the meaning of marriage on a dime if it
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:24 AM
May 2015

proves to be politically convenient at any particular moment in time among the Wall Street corporations who pay her speaking fees, which are about $300,000 more than a dime.

Who wouldn't be happy about that sort of yoga-like, pretzel-twisting flexibility?

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
159. very nimble for her age. she's "evolved" on so many issues it's hard to remember which are
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:34 AM
May 2015

which. The hyper rich have done a masterful job of selling her and the president as liberals, at least to those who want to believe

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
256. ken, this is such a hyperbolic drama of the very myth i stated in my post above, a minute ago. #255
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:58 AM
May 2015
 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
175. Alas, the debates are meaningless.
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:10 AM
May 2015

They always are. They are not ever anything that resembles a debate in the meaningful sense of the word.

And that applies to both parties.

I honestly don't understand how the HRC supporters come up with the idea that only she can win the election in November, 2016. What, exactly, is their proof here? All the many general elections she won in the past? Her overwhelming march to the nomination in 2008?

The reality is, that any reasonable (by which I mean any of the possible nominees so far) Democrat stands a decent chance of winning in 2016, with various caveats. The very most important of which is that the good voters of this country tend to want to change parties after 8 years. The other is, it will depend on who the specific nominees are. On both sides.

There is also a charming, if naive, assumption on the part of Clinton's supporters that there is such a huge desire for a woman President that women will almost without exception vote for her. No. They won't. All the Democrats will, of course, if she is the nominee. But Republicans? No. They won't. They will be so unhappy that the first woman at the top of the ticket is a Democrat, they'll come out in vast numbers to vote against her. And that's not taking into consideration all the very conservative and religious people who sincerely believe a woman has absolutely not place in higher office. None of them will vote for her.

Then there's all the baggage she carries. It's not fair, but every failing of Bill Clinton will fall upon her. All of his sexual escapades. Then there's Benghazi. Then there's the claim she was fired for being too partisan during the Watergate thing. None of those should have anything to do with her candidacy, and as for me, none of them have any affect on whether or not I vote for her. But I don't watch Fox News. I have a reasonable understanding of what has happened all these years.

No. Hillary Clinton is by no means a shoo-in to the Presidency. And even her most enthusiastic supporters need to understand this, especially if they hope to see her nominated and then to win the election.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
216. If HRC is nominated, all the Nineties shit will be revived.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:10 AM
May 2015

They'll even dig up Vince Foster...and I don't mean metaphorically.



Why put ourselves through all of that AGAIN?

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
221. It will not be us, the good Democrats
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:41 AM
May 2015

who will be putting ourselves through that shit. It will be the outsiders, the Republicans who will do so. Which is why all those who support HRC need to be very mindful of this, who need to be willing and able to counter all this crap. If they are not, if they just keep on repeating the mantra "Hillary is the only Democrat who can win in 2016" they will not win. They (more to the point, HRC) will lose and her supporters will be completely bamboozled as to why that has happened.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
179. First off...take your insults and shove them
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:20 AM
May 2015

Any so-called democrat that has the balls to get on a democratic board and say that the next SCOTUS openings are unimportant is either a total idiot or a republican trolling this board.


Lets get down to reality shall we? You Bernie purists can talk all the BS you want, you can insult Hillary voters, AKA the vast majority of democratic voters, all you want. You can keep on using Rush Limbaugh's and Fox news lies and innuendo against Hillary.

But.....on these dates next year.

This is where your bullshit ends!


Monday, February 1: Iowa caucus

Tuesday, February 9: New Hampshire

Saturday, February 20: South Carolina

Tuesday, February 23: Nevada caucus

Tuesday, March 1: Colorado caucuses; Massachusetts; Minnesota caucuses; Oklahoma; Tennessee; Texas; Vermont; Virginia; North Carolina

What will make it perfect is after these dates, when Bernie concedes to Hillary, he will, wait for it, endorse her for President! And so will Senator Warren!

And OMG I will laugh my ass off when it happens! I will be taking many victory laps on this board for sure!
So keep spewing your garbage on DU because you are doing NOTHING to help Bernie get the nomination while you waste time here insulting your fellow democrats and making enemies!

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
258. "get on a democratic board and say that the next SCOTUS openings are unimportant"
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:08 AM
May 2015
no really... populist support social justice. really really. show us where we do not

FUCK the supreme crt

no. we do want to be inclusive!!! how dare one suggest otherwise

surpeme is insiginifant!!! a third of our govt, that will help the oppressed and poor does NOT matter.!!!!

we want your support! no, we demand you support us!!!


for a month we have been having this argument. my head spins.... at the absurdity and audacity of this argument.

*now, i will continue reading your post*

'IF' Bernie concedes to Hillary, he will, wait for it, endorse her for President! And so will Senator Warren!


yes.

and so will i.

i wont laugh. i will not dance. i will roll up my sleeves and jump enthusiastically into the campaign. and if i come across some ass doing a dance or laughing at me, they will get a finger and i will continue on with the work

this primary is an easy victory for me be it sanders or hillary. i am going to enjoy it.



MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
260. And then you will see the Bernie purists throw him under the proverbial bus,
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:13 AM
May 2015

and declare their eternal loyalty to somebody they will write in.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
270. I have no doubt!
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:52 AM
May 2015

Why I bet some for these fine liberal folks will go republican after that, I bet you!

frylock

(34,825 posts)
330. "take your insults and shove them" followed by a call out of "Bernie purists"
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:46 PM
May 2015

well played, sir. well played.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
195. They want to be on the side of the candidate seen as the frontrunner.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:16 AM
May 2015

She never fought for either of those groups as First Lady, in the Senate, or as SOS.

JI7

(89,172 posts)
197. so why don't they support republicans when republicans are front runners ?
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:23 AM
May 2015

if it's just about supporting a front runner ?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
199. Because the Republicans want to destroy them, rather than just blandly ignore them.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:27 AM
May 2015

Those groups backed Bill early on, even though they knew he was basically running on a promise to keep them out in the cold. They figured he'd win in name and a lot of Dems, in the early 90's, were willing to settle for just electing somebody who called himself a Dem.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
204. Sometimes you take what you think you can get.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:36 AM
May 2015

It's not as though either Clinton ever deserved the support of any non-millionaires. They proved what side they were on, once and for all, when they fought for NAFTA with ten times the passion they ever displayed about healthcare.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
213. I'm not claiming to speak as "the Voice of Truth". Don't project that on me.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:01 AM
May 2015

In the Chicago mayor's race, blacks voted for the conservative white incumbent who'd spent his whole first term shitting on them against the progressive challenger-and did so, from what I can see, solely because Obama wanted to save the conservative(pro-corporate is always equal to conservative)white guy out of personal loyalty(never mind that said conservative white dude spent most of his time as White House chief of staff fighting to make the administration agenda as non-progressive and anti-people as possible). Go figure.

For that matter, working-class whites often vote for the economic royalist candidate against their own interests because they've been convinced that holding down people who don't look like them is more important than actually preserving their own standard of living.

JI7

(89,172 posts)
220. but you did in your OP as you usually do , and Rahm actually got higher percentage of hispanic vote
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:38 AM
May 2015

this time than he did last time.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
223. I simply speak for myself, as everyone here has the right to do.
Tue May 26, 2015, 03:50 AM
May 2015

That's not arrogance, it's simply the belief that all have the right to make themselves heard.
Excuse me for not being deferential to anyone's belief in their own intrinsic superiority over all others.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
232. You just dismissed entire races of people as unable to make decisions based on their own interests
Tue May 26, 2015, 07:33 AM
May 2015

and claimed, based on no evidence, that they want to go with the front runner. You refuse to even consider the possibility that they do know who supports their interests and who doesn't. The fact that you folks dismiss huge swaths, in fact the majority, of the population as inferior to yourselves is why you will not succeed. When you lack the basic respect to listen and consider what huge swaths of the population care about, you advance a politics of the few by the few. That turns people off. You are certainly not anywhere close to the worst offender. But that dismissal of African Americans and Latinos above is not wise, and it's something they are quite likely to see as hostile exclusion. That is at least suggested in the comments by some African American members to similar comments in a thread on recent polling data. They have described it as seeing them as inferior, not intelligent enough to know their own interests. Perhaps you ought to consider that your and their interests are not the same, and therefore your candidate may not be as appealing to them. If you want to persuade anyone to support your candidate, you need to seriously reevaluate your approach.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
261. it is not like this has not been discussed and said RESPECTFULLY and repeatedly the last 3 weeks.
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:18 AM
May 2015

the absolute rejection of what other grown adults are saying. this OP alone, totally rejects the third body of our politics. the one that helps the poor and minorities.

totally rejects it and says

what? dont get it.

amazing. going thru this thread, they totally knocked me on my ass, stupefied that they argue so blatantly and with insult, whole swaths of democratic voters.

ya know

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
355. No it doesn't.
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:26 PM
May 2015

All the OP says is that getting Supreme Court appointments doesn't justify accepting non-progressive policies on other things. The battle against oppression can't be won in the Supreme Court anyway, no matter how many justices we appoint...it can only be won from below, through continued mass action and grassroots pressure. The Reagan/Bush judicial appointments of the last thirty-four years have made it impossible to ever get a progressive judicial system in this country again.

We need to fight at the ballot box and carry the struggle for justice on in the streets.

The Supreme Court can't be worth accepting perpetual war in the Middle East. War is the ultimate oppression. No one can truly be freed while people are dying on battlefields in wars fought for oil. That's why the Great Society stopped...staying in Vietnam killed it.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
354. I didn't dismiss anyone.
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:20 PM
May 2015

I simply said I didn't know why some people made the choices they made. The poster who was pressing me about that was trying to get me to say that the interests of those groups could be fairly represented by the less-progressive candidate, when we both know it never is.

I don't regard anyone as inferior to me. I simply rejected the idea that the less-progressive candidate was ever the best choice for their interests. I also think that the less-progressive candidate never represents the true interests of white working-class voters either.

Am I supposed to say that, if the majority of a certain group makes a certain choice, that choice can't ever be questioned?

My interests are not different than the interests of African-American, Latino, or LGBTQ voters. We all get screwed anytime the less-progressive candidate gets elected. That's all I'm saying.

seabeyond's whole argument with me is based on a myth...for some reason, she thinks that Bernie Sanders and Bernie's supporters don't care about racism, sexism, homophobia, trans phobia or any other form of group oppression. She has no reason to think that, since Bernie's record on all of those issues is better than HRC's or anyone else's in the race, and since Bernie's supporters, as the left of the party, are by definition going to be more committed to fighting oppression than centrists ever would be, and are better than Obama's own history in terms of actual voting record and principles. Obama has done some good things, but he puts the rich ahead of the people at least half the time...no one can seriously dispute that.

And I'm not even attacking Obama, nor is anybody else who backs Bernie, from what I can see.

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
190. I do not think you have an alternative unless someone from the Democratic party is running.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:02 AM
May 2015

You either vote for Ms. Clinton or a stupid ass rethug. Your choice. As a Canadian, I cannot vote for Hilary but why the fuck you guys have to choose between two evils. We have three parties here in Canada, Justin is not ready yet! Our population is smaller, yours is bigger, why the fuck you all have only two parties?

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
207. You're completely incorrect, we have Sanders as a choice
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:49 AM
May 2015

who is running as a Democrat, and who has consistently worked with Democrats as a Senator while working to pull them to represent populist causes rather than corporatist causes.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, if so I welcome a clarification.

Sanders is an excellent choice for Democrats. I can see how people would suck it up and vote for Hillary in the general election if she wins the primary, but I cannot see significant policy reasons for choosing Hillary over Bernie, and her supporters in this thread have, as usual, offered virtually no such reasons to support her.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
267. "populist causes rather than corporatist causes." while progressive doesnt say, fuck the supreme crt
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:26 AM
May 2015
but I cannot see significant policy reasons for choosing Hillary over Bernie,


you will not hear clinton supporters say, fuck the third branch of our govt. doesnt matter.

progressive vs populists see significance of shoring up supreme crt. hence, the minority vote. but hey... do not listen to me, even though i have been repeatedly stating supreme crt is my number one issues, over populist causes.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
273. Bernie would appoint excellent SCOTUS justices
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:15 PM
May 2015

I have no doubt about that. Seems odd to me that you wouldn't see that, or that you wouldn't agree, but you're entitled your opinion, however mistaken it seems to me.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
274. of course i know sanders will do well. as i have repeatedly said. that is NOT what my argument is.
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:24 PM
May 2015

you made up an argument, to argue.

meh...

the OP dismisses supreme crt. no.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
275. Ah, on this issue your quarrel is with the OP, not me
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:39 PM
May 2015

so your response to me was misguided. I do not agree with the OP's position on the SCOTUS.

The most compelling argument I've seen for supporting Hillary is that we must not let a Republican make appointments to the SCOTUS. It is rather desperate and sad when a candidate's supporters need to pull the SCOTUS fear card to show a reason to support him or her, but I agree that the SCOTUS is important. That is, however, an argument for supporting her in the general election, if she gets the nomination, not an argument for supporting her in the primary.

I have confidence that Bernie can and will win the general election if he gets past Hillary in the primary.

Hillary supporters seem to use an argument of "electability" for supporting her. First, I don't agree that she is more electable than Bernie, she has a lot of problems in the electorate, and a lot of corrupting influences in her campaign war chest, which will greatly diminish the value of getting her elected. Also a lot of the country hates Clintons, perhaps as many as hate Bushes. Bernie is an honest public servant, we know who he will be working for, ad he will win over a lot of voters that Hillary cannot.

I see little chance that he beats Hillary in the primary, for all the wrong reasons. I will work for him, so will others, we could use more on our side, stranger things have happened, let's run on our principles and our values for once rather than holding our nose for someone who is better than a Republican but not by much.

Democrats have clearly shown that they don't fight back hard enough against corporate-friendly policies when a Democrat is pushing those policies.



still_one

(91,938 posts)
211. We don't, but the problem is the populace overwhelmingly supports the two party's in control, though
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:56 AM
May 2015

there have been independents who have one federal elections, and third party candidates who have one local elections.

In order for a third party to become prevalent though, they need to start locally, move up to the state level, and then the federal level, and that takes time.

In 2000 Nader ran as a third party candidate, and no matter what the argument is of who won or didn't win that election, the result of his candidacy was a spoiler.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
265. hillary clinton is not evil. i support sanders, so far. or leaning to him
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:21 AM
May 2015

the primary race has gotten going. i still have to wait.... still listening. but, i support sanders position a little more, ... though there is some i support clinton. i am siding with sanders.

hillary clinton is not evil.

still_one

(91,938 posts)
206. what are you talking about, she is being challenged, not only by Bernie, but most likely a couple of
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:49 AM
May 2015

more potential candidates in the primaries.

As for your comment regarding the SC, you are way off base to project that "every important issue will have been ruled on by then". That is simply NOT the case.

To your point regarding getting money out of politics or the rich, ignores the fact that until publicly financed elections become a reality, it takes a lot of money to win elections. That is how they get their message out by advertising, and that takes money

As for the "four more years of things not getting worse is the best we can do?", yes, sometimes it is.

quickesst

(6,280 posts)
229. bullshit rules once again
Tue May 26, 2015, 05:59 AM
May 2015

no HRC supporter has done that, and as far as I can tell will not do that. vote for whoever the fuck you want and quit whining about something that's not happening. the only time coronation is mentioned is when HRC haters bring it up. another manufacured excuse to keep whining. Drag yourself away from the pity party and start supporting your candidate in a positive manner. might make you feel better about yourselves.

quaker bill

(8,223 posts)
230. I support Bernie
Tue May 26, 2015, 06:30 AM
May 2015

but this is the result we are likely to get anyway. I think your characterization of HRC is over the top. She is not that bad. I prefer Bernie, but will happily vote HRC in the general.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
234. Is there a strong, collective opinion that everyone except Clinton should drop out?
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:17 AM
May 2015

Is there a strong, collective opinion that everyone except Clinton should drop out? Or is the sentiment merely shared by only a small few, yet advertised as a lion's roar to gain some traction and attention...?

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
237. How would we do that? There are primary elections.
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:31 AM
May 2015

People will vote for their choice. There will even be other candidates in the mix, most likely.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
238. what a fuckin dismissing insulting post to so many, for so many reasons. and yet... you own the high
Tue May 26, 2015, 09:32 AM
May 2015

road

damn bench, well played. to turn off more to your side. rah populist.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
243. We will be saying that more of the electorate supports Hillary Clinton
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:10 AM
May 2015

and her policies than the other candidates. It's really very simple.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
259. We'll be saying we want a good liberal president who will do the right thing for the next four
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:10 AM
May 2015

and possibly eight years.

That's what I say when I reject Bernie in favor of Hillary.

brooklynite

(93,843 posts)
264. Who is "quickly rejecting Bernie"?
Tue May 26, 2015, 11:21 AM
May 2015

Who is stopping Bernie from running, keeping out of the news or "coronating" Hillary Clinton?

There seems to be an inordinate amount of sensitivity to the suggestion that Sanders won't be as competitive as his supporters hope he'll be.

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
276. I think HRC supporters are nervous about Bernie, which is good. If they were not nervous
Tue May 26, 2015, 12:50 PM
May 2015

then they would not need to post so many threads each day saying he doesn't have a chance.....

I personally don't think HRC could win in the general election. She will inevitably say something foolish again like when she was on her reintroduction book tour.....

Response to peacebird (Reply #276)

Response to peacebird (Reply #285)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
294. this is how bad i am. listening to the other poster, i was thinking you
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:44 PM
May 2015

and thinking, that does not sound like you over the years. so i really was attributing something to you, that should not have been. i am glad i made the mistake. when names are close, i have a tough time separating. will try and keep this in my mind, in the future.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
282. Mine vs. Yours
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:10 PM
May 2015

You frame the issue in terms of, "My candidate is just as good as yours," and that's OK, but it goes beyond that. The Democratic Party should have a "real" primary. This means caucuses and primaries should be run fairly, so that candidates appear on the ballot and have a shot at getting the number of votes approximately in proportion to how well they campaign. Of course, many primaries are run by the state parties, and Hillary Clinton's supporters can be expected to "freeze out" Bernie Sanders in some states. His name may not appear on the ballot at all, and may appear only as an independent in some places. If this happens, and it probably will, it's due to the effective, efficient Clinton campaign machine and its determination to "sweep" her into office. That's normal. That's what campaign organizations do. They try to crush the competition.

This time, it might be a good thing for the Clinton people to hold back, to give Sanders a fair shot, to make sure he doesn't get forced out in the early going. The Democratic Party would look good if it allowed an independent candidate to appear on its primary ballots. Think of the contrast between Democrats and Republicans if we saw an intelligent, civilized debate between Clinton and Sanders, as opposed to the circus that will be the Republican debates. Think of how good it would look for Clinton if she won the nomination after an open and fir primary process, without keeping Sanders off the ballot or excluding him from the debates.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
341. Nobody wants a "coronation".
Tue May 26, 2015, 07:13 PM
May 2015

I think it would probably be healthy for the Hillary bashers to drop the delusion that Bernie has the slightest chance of actually winning. And the constant streams of silly anti-Hillary talking points are useless at best.

But constructive discussion of the issues and where people stand on them is a good thing.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
364. That, no matter what we say, we really don't give a fuck about economic justice.
Wed May 27, 2015, 09:22 AM
May 2015

That we don't walk our talk.

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