I’ve read much on the heroics of confronting bulliess recently, that too has a dark side…

[HereSince1628]

My family name sounds like a summer dessert fruit, my siblings and I took a lot of petty name calling about it and learned an inordinate number of adjectives and adverbs that rhymed with it. We were taught to ignore such name calling.

My brother also had carrot red-hair and an inability to sit still in class. It regularly got him tossed into the 1st grade coat room of the old grade school where there wasn’t much opportunity for learning. His 1st year was a progressive descent into being ‘the class dummy’ that others picked on and he failed the grade.
He was marked as a target for physical bullying. It lasted for years. During which my parents regularly berated me for not protecting him. I was taught to confront bullying, and I did.

So one fine Saturday morning in May, the bullies who lived a couple blocks away came onto the dead-end street grabbed my brother and dragged him into the doorway of a dairy.

I heard him shout and went running for him. I found him held down by a boy sitting on him and punching him while the rest of the gang jeered and kicked at him. I straight away tackled and rolled the kid on top of my brother. I jumped up before he did and with all the might my 85 lb 5th grade body could muster I kicked him hard in the side.

He quit fighting and doubled up. His buddies then beat the ever-living crap out of me.

Someone in the dairy had call the cops. They showed up. Everyone scattered--except for me, now also on the ground, and the bully I had kicked. He was rolling in agony and couldn’t sit. I shouted at the police that the cowardly M***** F***** got what he deserved for beating on my brother.

It was not received well by the men in blue.

The cops stuffed me into the back of their black and white, an ambulance took the bully away. I took a ride downtown for the inevitable chat between my parents and ‘the authorities’… I don’t remember much about that other than sitting on a wooden bench in front of a wooden railing behind which was an enormous desk…

I remember returning to school the next week. No one would talk to me. In fact, no one would come near me.

A teacher whose class I’d been in several years earlier told me to go to the Principal’s Office. There was a woman there waiting to take me home. Turned out that I was expelled for the rest of the year.
I had broken a couple of the bully’s ribs and ruptured his spleen which had to be removed in emergency surgery.

I was officially more dangerous than the bully, I was in the phraseology of the day, “a juvenile delinquent.”

Bottom line...there's no certain good outcome to standing up to bullies and fighting them. It's not always going to be seen as heroic, it's usually going to be seen as violent.

[mac56]

1. Wow. Thank you for telling that.

Last edited Fri May 11, 2012, 10:15 AM - Edit history (1)

I got bullied a lot in junior high, and upon my dad's advice I finally squared off with the main bully. Spun him around, pushed him up against a locker, grabbed the back of his hair, and bashed his head against the wall several times. He was dazed when I let him go. He never bullied me again but I spent all the rest of the school year in fear that I would somehow get legal consequences for that.

Standing up for yourself certainly is not guaranteed to be consequence-free.

(edited for accuracy)

[Cave_Johnson]

7. No guarantees in life...

Glad it worked out for you though...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Off campus should have out of bounds for the school

The pendulum has swung both ways on that over the years, and today the schools are trying long arm tactics once again. A high school counselor tried that on one of my daughters and was vigorously set straight.

I got in a few tussles when I was in school. I was considerably different in appearance than my peers and it made me a target. After several off campus incidents, it stopped. School was aware of them but did nothing.

[Zorra]

3. I jumped a man that was physically abusing a woman, got her free,

and then she screamed at me and smacked me for attacking her boyfriend/husband.

And then they went right back to yelling at each other.

[slackmaster]

4. A good self-defense class could teach you the proper way to act when the police show up

"My God, he's hurt! I'm so sorry I had to do that. I was so scared! He was hurting my brother. I hope he's going to be OK! Can we call my parents now, please?"

[Iris]

5. That sucks. You did the best you could. There are other ways

and I'm hoping the current anti-bullying trend will help young people figure this out. You were left to defend your brother on your own. I think the best way to combat bullying is to empower other kids to make it unacceptable.

When I was in high school, there was a rich kid, kind of like Mitt Romney, that I remember picking on a mentally disabled kid who was in my brother's class - 2 years younger than us. It didn't go over well with my brother and several of his friends, who were all football players. They basically told Richey Rich that that behavior wasn't acceptable. No violence occurred, although, I guess it was implied. At any rate, it wasn't necessary b/c Richey Rich knew he was outnumbered. And that's how these battles get won throughout life - by people standing up and saying something is unacceptable.

[Deep13]

6. You did not do anything wrong. nt

[riderinthestorm]

8. I just wrote something like this on another thread. "Fighting back" these days means expulsion

in virtually every school. Or at the least a pretty severe suspension.

Until we address the root causes of bullying, "fighting back" simply means that you may have removed the bully from YOUR orbit but they'll simply move on to another victim.

[slackmaster]

15. That's why you don't fight back AT SCHOOL

Every bully lives somewhere.

[JDPriestly]

28. The consequences of fighting back away from school could be even worse.

We can learn from the past.

Nowadays, parents should not leave dealing with bullies to children. Parents should challenge school authorities on the issue -- even talk to the district attorney and the city council or country officials about bullying.

Every school and every town and county should adopt an anti-bullying policy so that a kid who bullies and his family receive counseling about the risks they are taking -- that a bully can be expelled from school or, for example, end up in Juvenile Hall for assault and battery or have to pay the hospital expenses for a child who is beaten. Some bullying that the bully thinks is a joke ends in the death or suicide of one of the people involved.

The parents of bullies need to be told that it might not matter who started the fight. Getting into a fight in which someone is injured is a risk.

Solving disputes through violence is a habit that children develop. The worst part of telling children they should fight back is that they don't learn how to communicate without violence.

Please check this website out: Non-Violent Communication

http://www.cnvc.org/

I took a short course with this group and bought their book. For me and my family, that was a life-changing experience.

[riderinthestorm]

39. +1000000 nt

[slackmaster]

44. Sometimes the path of least resistance is to communicate effectively with a bully's parents

You just have to say the right thing to them at the right time.

[Edweird]

9. So, what's your position? To 'take it'? I have self respect.

Self worth. Pride. I stand up for myself and that may have consequences, but so does not standing up for yourself.

[HereSince1628]

12. My position is that there isn't a single outcome to confronting bullies.

And the dominant them amongst the "I confront bullies" has been that it's heroic, honorable, and it's the trick for stopping bullying.
It's not always those things.

So my position is much like yours. Standing up for yourself or your family is gonna have consequences
but those consequences aren't always what one might anticipate.

Sometimes the bullies back away forever, sometimes they come back with 'wingmen.'
Sometimes a heated word stops behavior, sometimes it escalates.

Sometimes a fight with a bully defines you as someone not to screw with...once in a while it may define you as a criminal.

[Edweird]

13. Ok, but what happens when you DON'T confront them?

Yes, you have to weigh your options carefully, but the fact of the matter is that if you allow the bullies to continue it will end on their terms and not yours.

[HereSince1628]

21. I'm not sure you can be certain of an outcome there, either...

I'm not saying bullying shouldn't be confronted.

I do think I am saying if you tell kids to physically confront bullies the outcomes can sometimes be bad

Kids don't have a grasp of the possible consequences. I didn't even know that people had spleens when I ruptured one

I doubt that my parents thought I'd ever put another kid in the hospital.

[Edweird]

29. Your case, BTW, is EXACTLY why I support 'stand your ground' type laws.

The bullies leave you with 2 options - neither of which are good. I wouldn't mind seeing the bullies charged for whatever injuries THEY receive. IOW, I believe that when you ruptured that bully's spleen, he and his accomplices should have been charged with assault and battery. But, that's just me.

But, like it or not, it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and sometimes you have to fight or be willing accept the alternative.

[JDPriestly]

32. Too often, the person with the gun IS the bully.

Not always, but all too often.

Bullying is a community issue, and it needs to be dealt with by the community.

Religious leaders should take the issue on this as should school and government officials.

[Edweird]

33. Who is 'the person with the gun'? Police? Military? Citizens?

'Self defense' does not automatically mean 'gun'. If you are equating the two, I would consider that dishonest.

[mac56]

23. I think the point is that unintended consequences are a fact of life.

Even when doing the right thing. This doesn't mean that a person shouldn't do the right thing, but that we must all be mindful that not all of the outcomes may be what we had been promised.

[Edweird]

30. Yep, shit happens.

Maybe the bully's dad plays golf with the chief of police - you never know. But, one thing I do know is that no matter what anyone says, doing the right resounds within you and is recognized and respected by others.

[mac56]

34. I think we agree, basically.

Do the right thing, but be prepared for the blowback. Hopefully the blowback is easier to deal with than the bullying, due to the inner strength fostered by doing the right thing.

[JDPriestly]

31. In my view, bullying should be handled in one of two ways.

Try non-violent communication.

http://www.cnvc.org/

If that doesn't work, and if the person you are dealing with is a real bully who is doing his bullying in a school environment, you are dealing with a community problem, and you need to organize the community to confront the issue of bullying.

No child should have to be bullied.

To me, the worst part of being bullied is the loneliness you feel. It is that isolation and loneliness that drives the bullied to despair, certainly low self-confidence, sometimes even suicide.

It isn't just homosexuals that get bullied although they are common victims. Someone who wears glasses, is smaller or fatter or skinnier than others. Someone with a disability or an awkward or extremely shy nature. There are a lot of excuses for bullying someone.

This is a problem for the community. Teachers, parents, pastors and government officials need to be aware at all times of the damage that bullying does to both the bullies and the bullied and of the techniques that people in authority can use to stop or at least severely lessen bullying.

[Edweird]

35. I am intimately familiar with the mechanics of bullying - I was the 'weird kid'.

I'm here to tell you that both of your 'solutions' are BS. Bullying usually happens to those that are different and is typically given tacit approval by the 'community' - that's why the gay kid got in trouble for the stun gun while he was gay bashed without consequence.Even when the 'community disapproves - the bullying takes place out of sight. The 'community' isn't there to intervene, only to act sorry after the act has occurred. That does you no good when you're alone with your tormentor.

As for 'non violent communication' - do you seriously believe that the bullies are unaware of what they are doing? That they haven't been asked and pleaded with? They derive pleasure from their cruelty. They know what they are doing and 'get off' when you beg. Your post, while well meaning, is in my opinion completely clueless.

[JDPriestly]

48. All true. But what is also true is that bullies mostly pick on safe

targets. I was always, always, the smallest or one of the two smallest people in my class. So I know what bullies are about.

While non-violent communication will not work with a bully, it will work with the community that supports the bully.

To this day, I'm one to side with the outsider, to instinctively want to protect the small, the weak, the poor -- and it is partly because of my childhood in which I was more vulnerable to bullies myself. We who are or were the victims of bullies need to form our own community and support each other.

[backscatter712]

53. Non-violent communication against a bully? Are you serious?

When Biff is spitting in your face and slamming your head into your locker day after day after day after day, you're supposed to go up to him and say "Gee, Biff, it seems you have problems managing your anger. Let me give you a hug!" You really think that would work?

And don't tell me "Go to the community." The community in many cases won't do shit. The reason the bullying situation has been allowed to happen in the first place is because the community has made it very clear they will not act.

I've been bullied right in front of teachers, who in one case, did nothing but stick her nose in her book because she didn't want to sully her beautiful mind by intervening when a group of kids are terrorizing a kid half their size.

The fact is that bullies will only respond to two things: force and dominance. You cannot reason with a bully, or hug your way out of a bullying situation.

Sometimes, there is no alternative but to kick the piece of shit in the spleen.

[JDPriestly]

56. Non-violent communication is not about hugs,

and you would probably need to use it before your relationship with the bully gets to the point that you are being beaten up.

Check out the website. Non-violent communication is about finding ways to resolve disputes. The dispute in the case of a student bullying another about homosexuality is probably not between the bully and the bullied but between the bullied and his or her parents and the school authorities.

[daaron]

16. This.

It always depends on the situation, I think. Is it chronic? Have other methods been tried?

That said, I'll never forget my older sister saving me from bullies all through elementary and junior high (until I started winning my own fights, to be honest). It's burnt into my memory, forever -- her charging down the street with her backpack on and her trumpet case. More than once she dived into the middle of a crowd of bigger, older boys and started spinning, her skirt flying, and that trumpet-case knocking heads. Once she was suspended for biting one of these bullies when they pinned her down on the playground the next day.

My mother was FURIOUS. What'd he expect? (As I recall it was one of the Holiday boys - my childhood tormentors.)

And she is very much my hero. So while there might be consequences, sometimes that's just the price we pay for doing what's necessary at the time.

[LuvNewcastle]

10. There was an older girl, big for her age, who

used to torment my dad and his friends. One day my dad picked up a pipe and knocked the girl out with it. According to him, the girl "never was quite right after that." The girl was undoubtedly wrong, but the punishment was probably greater than she deserved. That's what happens when parents don't get involved and let the kids "fight their own battles."

[Iris]

11. And that's the bottom line - "when parents don't get involved..."

By now, it seems like we should realize that's neglect.

[tblue37]

27. When adults abdicate their responsibility for teaching and enforcing

the laws of civilization, then the law of the jungle takes over, and we end up with one or another version of The Lord of the Flies.

[patrice]

14. Indeed. Happens here at DU too. nt

[Voice for Peace]

17. this is a place where good parenting should be helpful

I don't know where your parents were, but they should
have stood behind you on this.

So much goes on that parents don't even know about.

When a kid knows the parent will always support him,
even when he makes a mistake or a bad choice, it gives
strength and courage to make good independent choices.

And when everyone comes down on you, you've tried to
do the right thing but are being accused of the wrong,
a parent should be there to step up and defend you.

The world and its authorities are hard/insane enough
for a kid. I've seen too many instances where parents
side with the insane authorities. When my kids were in
HS it was like that.. shocking. Parents siding with teachers
against kids. Mass disapproval, chronic punishments.

Thanks for trying .. I hope your brother remembers and
treasures you.

[KurtNYC]

18. There is a saying in NYC: "No good deed goes unpunished"

We still help each other anyway but are always mindful of what can happen.

Someone who arrives on scene or looks over AFTER it has begun often sees the retaliation punch but not what started it. Inevitably when the cops or the media come, they will say "I saw the WHOLE thing...."

Easy to get in trouble for winning a fight that you didn't even want to have in the first place.

[mac56]

24. +1000

[varelse]

19. It is true that there are other ways of confronting bullies

and that violence isn't necessarily courage.

I think what you did was courageous and very probably a reflexive reaction. The fact that you happened to land a very damaging blow was probably due to coincidence rather than training (unless you happened to have martial arts training at that age). It does not seem that you or your brother were treated fairly by anyone in that scenario.

I would have done the same for one of my sisters, and damn the consequences. But your point is well taken nonetheless.

I am curious, though. Were you and/or your brother attacked after this incident?

[HereSince1628]

45. Yes, it went on for my brother.

Not so much for me, I got sent to another school.

[Muskypundit]

20. Hey, I still dont see how you did the wrong thing

I bet he never picked on anyone again.

[riderinthestorm]

40. I'll bet they certainly continued bullying. They simply picked another target. nt

[aikoaiko]

22. Here's a question: Did the bully beat on your brother again?

[HereSince1628]

38. The group that was involved in bullying my brother continued at him

until they were all in jr high school and divided amongst different classes.

[aikoaiko]

46. I'm sorry to hear that, but did the one you beat on continue to bully your brother?

[tcaudilllg]

25. That's not the dark side.

You were mistreated. We need to create a situation where these kinds of actions are defended by organized groups.

[HereSince1628]

42. I see it as dark. A kid of 8 maybe 9 ended up with a life threatening injury

I had no idea such a thing was possible. I don't think my parents had given such outcomes any thought.

I haven't any special insight on stopping bullying...and I'm not trying to say I do...I'm not in favor of kids
being bullied, ridiculed or ostracized to the point they take up self-injury or worse.

It concerns me that lots of people see telling kids to stand up to bullies as the right thing, and
no thought is given to the horrible outcomes that can follow.

I learned firsthand what one of the consequences can be and felt that point of view needed to be shared.

[zeemike]

26. Well I have a bully story too.

I was in second grade and was bullied by some bigger kids and largely ignored them...until one day the biggest one of them told me he was going to beat me up after school...I think he expected me to sneak out and take the long way home...but I didn't and sure enough there he and his friend was waiting for me on the corner....when the biggest one approached me I swung my lunch bucket and hit him right on the noes and it began to flow...and he and his friend went home holding a handkerchief to his noes...they never bothered me again...
So what I learned from that is that if you must fight then hit them on the noes...that will stop the fight and no real damage is done....except to the confidence of the bully.

[stevenleser]

49. You can kill someone with a hard strike to any part of the head.

It didnt happen in your situation and thats great and I am glad the bullies got what was coming to them, but you could very easily have killed the person you struck. In my opinion you would have been innocent due to self defense, but the authorities may have decided not to see it that way just like the authorities in the OPs case.

[zeemike]

54. And you can kill people with words too

Keep hounding them until they kill themselves
Back in those days....I am talking about the 50s now....they let kids work things like that out themselves....and by the way back then most kids had a 22 rifle...and it was nothing to see a 9 or 10 year old walking down the street carrying one.....on the way to the woods.
But this was small town America in the 50s...And I never heard of a kid being killed in a fight or with a gun...perhaps because they did have the opportunity to work thing out when they were young.
It really is a much meaner world today...even in small town America.
But I got in very few fights in school...because they knew I would fight...when we moved to a bigger town my folks sent me to Catholic school with predominantly Irish Americans...and my first day there a gang of boys approached me and said they would beat me up after school.....and sure enough they were there when school was out...and the ring leader and I wrestled on the ground for a few seconds and then got up and walked home together...they really did not want to fight they just wanted to see if I would....and that guy became my best friend.

I tried my hand at bulling myself once....in class when we were supposed to be studying I kept pulling the pigtail of the girl in front of me...she got tired of it and stood up turned around and smacked me right across the face...the whole class and the teacher were all silent....she sat back down and I never tried that one again....the Nun who was the teacher never said a word.

I tell you it is a much meaner world today.

[stevenleser]

55. You dont have to tell me. I was also bullied.

I just wanted to point out that you could have killed that person. Mind you, I would not have voted to convict you of anything had that happened and I was on your jury.

[JoePhilly]

36. There was a bigger kid who would bully me and my friends 40 years ago ... my friends still talk

about the day his bullying ended.

He was picking on the smallest member of our group, pushing him down, threatening him. He'd done this for a long time. He'd done it to each of us. But on that particular day, his bullying was becoming even more aggressive. The smaller kid would get up, and the bully would knock him right back on the ground again.

So I walked over and told him to stop. He did the standard bully thing and said "What are you going to do about it" ... and then he shoved me. Now he's threatening me, pushing me in the chest. But I won't move away. And then he did something that he always did, he flinched as if he was about to throw a punch. It was one of the various things he'd do to scare you.

And for whatever reason, when he made that motion, I simply responded. I'd never throw a punch at anyone before. He saw it coming and pulled his head back. But he wasn't fast enough, and I caught him with a round house right, hitting him on his left temple, next to his left eye. He fell to his right, and hit the right side of his head on some concrete steps.

As he sat on the ground covering his head and crying, I stood over him daring him to get up, trying to be as menacing as possible. Everyone thought I was enraged. In reality, I knew that I'd broken at least one bone in my right hand. It was killing me. So I was yelling at him to get up, hoping that he wouldn't be able to tell I was hurt. Fortunately, he didn't get up.

The next day we saw him. He had two black eyes. One from my punch, and one from hitting his head on the steps. At school, everyone wanted to know what happened to him. They wanted to know why he looked like a raccoon. And he had to tell them what happened.

And I had to explain the cast on my right hand. I'd broken the bone in your hand that is that connects to your pinky knuckle. It was a compression fracture, so now my pinky knuckle is now about 1/4 inch lower than where it had been.

He never picked on any of us ever again. And those friends, the ones who were bullied, still bring up that story.

[Red State Prisoner]

37. This is a tough one...

I was bullied throughout Junior High, and really never did a whole lot about it. I put my head down, and put up with the name calling, shoving, and, in some instances, spitting. I wasn't afraid of the bullies insomuch as I was afraid of the trouble I might get in. I'll never forget having a kid pour paint across my...well...painting in art class. It was no grand work of art, but I'd put effort in to it, and he'd ruined it for the sake of his own amusement. I retaliated by painting a big pink heart across his "work". Of course, the art teacher, even after having seen what transpired, sent us both to the office for "throwing paint". Three licks and an assigned detention later, I decided it wasn't worth it. So I kept quiet for the remainder of my stay at what I can only describe as a living Hell of a school. Luckily, I hit a growth spurt my final year and became less of a target.

25 years later and now a father, I will not allow my children to be bullied. I've taught and encouraged them to stand up for themselves and, more importantly, for each other. It's landed them in a bit of trouble from time to time, but I've always supported them and made it clear to teachers, administrators, and/or principles that I will not chastise them for fighting back. So far, and I'm knocking on wood here, it seems to have worked out. I've taught them that verbal taunts are to be laughed off and ignored all together. However, if the bullying becomes physical, they know to defend themselves.

I don't want nor do I like the idea of my kids fighting. I'm a peace loving, laid back type of guy. I just don't want them to be subjected to the same torment I had to endure as a kid.

[TrogL]

41. I finally fought back against my bully after years of abuse

I got in shit. He was "swinging his arms and I got in the way". Could possibly have the star quarterback get in trouble, could we?

[redqueen]

43. Thank you. nt

[Dawson Leery]

47. I had a similar experience in 5th grade (no police though).

Let us just say, the local small town school system should just be shut down.

[stevenleser]

50. I found myself wishing that the statute of limitations had not passed and you could sue

I imagine that is wishful thinking though.

[loose wheel]

51. I was way out beyond the wierd kid...

I was the asthmatic who suffered from encopresis. I was severely underweight, small, and smelled bad and just couldn't help it. My parents didn't know about encpresis and regularly physically and mentally abused me over that. When I tried to speak I was hesitant and had a bad stuttering problem.

I retreated into books and rarely ever spoke at all when at school. At home I would just hide in the woods until I had to come in.

Yeah, I got bullied. They came in threes and fours most of the time, and no teacher ever asked where I got that black eye or bloody lip from. They would attack me on the playground, and I wouldn't go on the playground. They would atack me in the bathroom, and I would either hold until I got home, which wasn't helpful, or go during class. Some of them found where I lived and followed me into the woods.

I know as much as anyone about trying not to be seen or noticed.

Then something happened. I outgrew the encopresis and started playing football, and gained confidence in myself. I learned how to defend myself, and that I could take somebodies best hit and stand up to it. I also found that I was now the same size as kids my age and didn't have breathing problems anymore. The bullies still came, until I made it plain that I wasn't an easy target anymore.

In all my experience bullies understand one thing. Talking doesn't help, and adults can't always be there.

[Generic Other]

52. One person looked up to you that day I imagine

Your brother. He probably still respects you for doing what you did. That was the only one who you had to answer to, don't ya think?