Poll on economic justice and social justice

[gollygee]

I think people are talking past each other or something. I haven't heard anyone say that social justice is the only important thing and that economic justice isn't important. Just that economic justice will not automatically lead to social justice -that you have to individually focus on social justice AS WELL and AT THE SAME TIME as you focus on economic justice in order to achieve real justice overall.

Maybe I'm confused? I'm making a poll to find out.

11 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Economic justice is far more important than social justice, or economic justice will lead to social justice without needing to work specifically on social justice.
	1 (9%)
	Economic justice and social justice are of about the same importance, and both need to be worked on at the same time. Neither can be ignored or put on the back burner.
	9 (82%)
	Social justice is far more important than economic justice, or social justice will lead to economic justice without needing to work specifically on economic justice.
	0 (0%)
	Other (explain in thread)
	1 (9%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[bravenak]

1. Glad you posted this.

I agree. I think both are equally important and neither will work without the other.

[gollygee]

2. I'm trying to get a feel for where people are

because it's getting confusing. Sometimes I feel like I see people who agree about this arguing with each other thinking they have opposing opinions.

[orpupilofnature57]

6. Refining what we're about and who is aligned with who

and WHY .

[bravenak]

7. I keep seeing people arguing who want exactly the same thing.

I hope this helps.

[orpupilofnature57]

11. It does and your right .

[orpupilofnature57]

3. One is hinged on the other .

[bravenak]

8. I agree

[Wounded Bear]

15. What he said ^^

The two are intrinsically linked. Since money equals power, citizens need access to both.

[PETRUS]

4. Right there with ya.

Ignoring either one still leaves us with some kind of underclass.

[bravenak]

9. Yep

[seabeyond]

5. i think the talking past is purposeful because of agenda. and privilege. and entitlement.

Just that economic justice will not automatically lead to social justice

for a fact, this is how the populist movement is approaching it and it appears sanders. i truly believe, he feels this is the way to deal with the issue.

it has its merits and i get that some may believe that is the direction we need to go.

i think many that are in an oppressed/minority group recognize that economic justice wont do it. hence the need for both to play side by side, not waiting for economic justice to be handed out that we may get some.

i disagree with the approach of populist

i am all on board with the economic positions.

i am not on board depending on economic to carry to social.

two different perspective.

yea... we have one candidate that sees the answer thru economic justice.

we have two to chose from, that see it different.

it gives us choices and i can respect anothers position, even when i disagree with that position.

[seabeyond]

12. and i am not thrilled with the choices. that i can necessarily make a choice. the thing. we are

on a social justice, unlevel playing field that carries to economic. so to say economic and social together, or economic first, is starting htis out on an unlevel playing field. thru hierarchy, .... one will get most, as we go down the hierarchy least.

i also do not like that we have to have social first, because, economic is very real and very important.

so, i do not know how to vote. seeing we are already in position of less.

[Cheese Sandwich]

10. I don't know the difference between social vs. economic justice

They overlap a lot. Or economic justice is part of social justice. Because the economy is in society. I can't even separate issues out into these separate categories. Like when a city like Detroit is economically destroyed, that's a racial justice issue, a social justice issue, and an economic justice issue.

[seabeyond]

13. they do overlap. this definition really helped me and i go back and check it out.

it seems the most clear to me

social/economic justice

The current context of economic globalization, increasing militarization of the society and armed conflicts, the retrenchment of the social welfare system and growing social and economic inequality between, and within, countries underscores the importance of an approach to social work practice based on social justice and human rights. In this article, we examine the concepts of social and economic justice and address some of the dilemmas and challenges facing social workers in both Canada and the USA as they promote the fulfilment of human needs and address human rights in exploitative situations. The concepts of social and economic jus-tice and human rights are interconnected yet distinct.

Social justice is defined in this article according to
The Social Work Dictionary
(Barker, 2003: 404–5) as: ‘An ideal condition in which all members of a society have the same basic rights, protection, opportunities,obligations, and social benefits A key social work value, social justice entails advocacy to confront discrimination, oppression,and institutional inequities.

’Economic justice is a narrower concept, referring to the standard of living that ideally should be equitable. All persons ought to have opportunities for meaningful work and an income that provides them with adequate food, shelter and a level of living that contri-butes to good health. Whereas social and economic justice is a general term that relates to society in general, human rights is a term that, from the point of view of the people, refers to specific universal standards relevant to freedom and well-being, personal and collective right

http://www.academia.edu/485556/Social_and_economic_justice_human_rights_and_peace

[gollygee]

14. I'll try to give an example

I see two things. First, wealth people of color still face discrimination. Also, gay people can't marry in some states no matter how rich they are. So money doesn't solve everything.

Second, it would be at least difficult, and I think impossible, to achieve economic justice without also working on social justice, because (for instance) people of color don't have economic justice at least in part because of racial discrimination, and fixing economic issues wouldn't fix issues of job discrimination and banking discrimination people of color face. Or police discrimination, which an also be very expensive. So economic justice on its own would leave people of color behind. It therefore wouldn't be true economic justice anyway. No way to do it without also working on social justice.

[cali]

18. And if you are poor and a person of color odds

are your kids attend a lousy, unsafe school. That isn't solved by social justice.

I want to add that you can take steps to remedy institutional racism, but social justice can't remedy individual racism or homophobia.

[gollygee]

19. yeah but there's social justice involved there too

segregation, both of towns and of schools and school districts.

The main issue is we need both.

[cali]

21. absolutely. they are deeply entwined. one is no more important

than the other, but I will point out that while we have, over the last 20 years or so, made strides in gaining LGBT rights, and arguably regarding minority rights, we have massively lost ground in the fight for economic justice.

[gollygee]

23. That's true as far as as LGBT rights go

I don't know if I agree about rights for people of color, over the past 20 years. I think things were better 20 years ago. Our school district here is completlely re-segregated, the prison system has a huge percentage of people of color in it, voting rights have been cut away at.

[Exilednight]

28. Very true, but you can't look at somebody and necessarilly see if someone is gay, but you can't

Hide skin color. It's easier to find economic justice when you can hide who you are.

Edit to add: my point is that it's easier to focus on social justice alone when you can have economic justice by hiding in plain sight. People of color have to fight for both at the same time.

[TheKentuckian]

20. Neither is functional without the other. Money doesn't solve everything but always beats having none

and even less.

The destitute gay couple is in a a far deeper bind.

The necessitous and desperate have few practical rights, particularly in the most heavily capitalist nation in the world.

It is so hand in hand that one cannot functionally be for one and not the other in any true sense beyond rhetorical deception.

That is what being a Democrat is about to me, not one or the other because soon as I hear the "but", I know the snake oils salesman is in town.

If you got a "but", you are a regressive.

[cali]

24. exactly

All the civil rights in the world are pretty meaningless if you don't have a roof over your head.

[TheKentuckian]

16. You can't have one without the other which is why we haven't seen an economically liberal but

socially conservative in the wild in decades and why "socially liberal but fiscally conservative" is a scam of a right wing ideology, essentially a right libertarian meant to assimilate our party as yet another tool of corporate interests.

This entire hubbub is the screeching response to "socially liberal but fiscally conservative" being pushed back on and rejected by sensible and decent people.

[gollygee]

17. I know someone who calls himself that

and he's a huge Rand Paul fan and is blindingly anti-abortion.

[TheKentuckian]

22. and he is lying even to himself unless he is using the global "liberal" which means lazzie fare

conservative or are you talking "socially liberal but fiscally conservative" to which my response is that is also a lie even to themselves which I think you see right through without explanation.

[gollygee]

25. kick to see

if i can get any more responses.

[seabeyond]

26. i wish there could be more of an understanding without the hostility and animosity. nt

[gollygee]

27. I think most people here are saying the same thing

but one side is saying, "No, social justice is just as important as economic justice!" and the other side is saying, "No, economic justice is just as important as social justice!"

[seabeyond]

29. i do not think i agree with you. but it does not mean that i need to have a problem with anyone

or interfere with a good solid primary race.

i do not need to bash an opponent, a fellow dem, and i will be happy with all three.

i absolutely believe there is a faction, that do not have much interest in the social aspect.

i could always be wrong, but that is what i believe.

i am done with the fight. i can direct my attention elsewhere. see what omalley has.

[gollygee]

30. There might very well be some

I see two have voted that way, but I'm thinking most people are at least saying the same thing. Some of the people I thought were saying they didn't care about social justice issues or thought they were a distraction from "real, important issues" have said that they thought others only care about social issues but that they feel both are equally important.

Like I said, I'm a bit confused about where people are.

[deutsey]

31. Kind of baffled why this is even an issue

Of course the two are entwined.

[gollygee]

32. I am too

and yet there are a ton of threads with people arguing with each other about this specific point when most people seem to agree.

[deutsey]

33. Yeah, I know

I suppose it helps to explain why we can't seem to make any significant economic progress.

[TheKentuckian]

36. They don't though which is why the party has embraced "socially liberal but fiscally conservative"

and why push back on that old lying bullshit gets more flack in a week than decades of the bullshit which now permeates the practical ideology of our party.

It was always the Turd Way advancing the absurd notion that there is separation of justice but them FINALLY seriously being called on it is the root of the fucking hubbub because they want to be able to whore for Wall Street, the insurance cartel, military producers, Pharma, and Big Oil while pretending to be Democrats.

[gollygee]

37. Now you're making assumptions

I know there are a few fiscally conservative people here, but the bulk of the people arguing for social justice are not fiscally conservative.

[TheKentuckian]

38. Here is not the party at large and where do you get off implying I don't argue for social justice?

Seems like you are the one making assumptions and odd nonsensical ones at that.

[gollygee]

39. I'm not trying to imply that

I was trying to describe the people at DU who are saying that Sanders isn't speaking enough about or making a high enough priority of social justice. Those people here at DU aren't third wayers. But I was assuming you were talking about people at DU and I apologize if I was wrong about that.

[Exilednight]

34. Those that are Of Third Way persuasion believe that Bernie is

Focusing too much on economic inequality while avoiding social inequality.

[Man from Pickens]

35. They are not different things

I see no way to achieve any social justice without also achieving economic justice - not as long as lawyers cost money.