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Newsjock

(11,733 posts)
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:11 PM May 2015

Libertarian Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by billions in government subsidies

Source: Los Angeles Times

Los Angeles entrepreneur Elon Musk has built a multibillion-dollar fortune running companies that make electric cars, sell solar panels and launch rockets into space.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups.

... Musk and his companies' investors enjoy most of the financial upside of the government support, while taxpayers shoulder the cost.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Libertarian Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by billions in government subsidies (Original Post) Newsjock May 2015 OP
And he should be paying back the subsidies Carewfan May 2015 #1
He's not a libertarian, though; the OP just made that up Recursion May 2015 #6
I didn't know that he was a Libertarian. Marie Marie May 2015 #2
He's not (nt) Recursion May 2015 #5
Thank you for clarifying Recursion. Marie Marie May 2015 #7
He isn't a Libertarian. MH1 May 2015 #22
Ah yes, the old "fiscally conservative" recipient of taxpayer money. arcane1 May 2015 #26
Yes, he is MFrohike May 2015 #37
That is socialism RobertEarl May 2015 #3
Why did you add the word "libertarian" to the headline, when it appears nowhere in the article Recursion May 2015 #4
Ron Paul apparently thinks Musk is a libertarian pscot May 2015 #8
Look at Musk's own political donations Recursion May 2015 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #14
Musk seems to be some sort of iconic pscot May 2015 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #25
Humanity becoming a multi-planet, space faring species pscot May 2015 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #32
At this point in our career(v) pscot May 2015 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #35
I can't say pscot May 2015 #36
Elon Musk is not a libertarian 4now May 2015 #10
Musk is a visionary genius and not a libertarian LittleBlue May 2015 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #13
Yep LittleBlue May 2015 #16
Not really, there is clearly the libertarianish side of his message if you listen to it. Johonny May 2015 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #23
Musk is anti-union. joshcryer May 2015 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #12
He is anti-union. joshcryer May 2015 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2015 #19
Kind of a hit piece but Musk gets this a lot GreatGazoo May 2015 #15
Well said Egnever May 2015 #29
So is Donald Trumps. Rex May 2015 #24
More of the same sub.theory May 2015 #28
Perhaps Egnever May 2015 #30
I love Elon threads. Starry Messenger May 2015 #31
Unlike all the other energy and auto companies, right? killbotfactory May 2015 #33
 

Carewfan

(58 posts)
1. And he should be paying back the subsidies
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:16 PM
May 2015

and let him grow without the government help - isn't that the Libertarian way?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
6. He's not a libertarian, though; the OP just made that up
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:55 PM
May 2015

He's something of a third wayer, but he's definitely not libertarian.

Marie Marie

(9,999 posts)
2. I didn't know that he was a Libertarian.
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:19 PM
May 2015

Another illusion shattered - I thought he was a great businessman and he did all this on his own.

Marie Marie

(9,999 posts)
7. Thank you for clarifying Recursion.
Sun May 31, 2015, 12:19 AM
May 2015

I read the article and thought I was missing something or that it was common knowledge that I had somehow missed. I always admired him and am relieved to hear that he is not another Libertarian hypocrite.

MH1

(17,600 posts)
22. He isn't a Libertarian.
Sun May 31, 2015, 12:12 PM
May 2015
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Political_positions

Political positions[edit]

Politically, Musk has described himself as "half-Democrat, half-Republican". In his own words "I'm somewhere in the middle, socially liberal and fiscally conservative."[92]

In an interview with the Washington Post, Musk stated he was a "significant (though not top-tier) donor to Democrats, but that he also gives heavily to Republicans". Musk further stated, “in order to have your voice be heard in Washington, you have to make some little contribution.”[93][94]

A recent report from the Sunlight Foundation (a nonpartisan group that tracks government spending), found that "SpaceX has spent $4 million on lobbying Congress since it was established in 2002 and doled out more than $800,000 in political contributions" to Democrats and Republicans. The same report noted that “SpaceX’s campaign to win political support has been systematic and sophisticated,” adding that "Musk himself has donated roughly $725,000 to various campaigns since 2002. In 2004, he contributed $2,000 to President George W. Bush’s reelection campaign, maxing out to Obama’s reelection campaign and donated $5,000 to Republican Sen. Marco Rubio, who represents Florida, a state critical to the space industry." "All told, Musk and SpaceX gave out roughly $250,000 in the 2012 election cycle.[93][95]

Musk had been a supporter of the U.S. political action committee FWD.us, which was started by fellow high-profile entrepreneur Mark Zuckerberg and advocates for immigration reform. However, in May 2013, Musk publicly withdrew his support in protest of advertisements the PAC was running that supported causes like the Keystone Pipeline. Musk and other members, including David Sacks, pulled out, criticizing the strategy as "cynical."[96]

Musk has stated that he no longer believes that the U.S. government should provide subsidies to environmentally friendly companies, as was done with Tesla Motors, but the government should instead use a carbon tax to discourage "bad behaviour". Musk argues that the free market would achieve the "best solution", and that producing environmentally unfriendly vehicles should come with its own consequences. Author and Stanford Professor Fred Turner responded by noting that "if you're an entrepreneur like Elon Musk, you will take the money where you can get it, but at the same time believe as a matter of faith that it's entrepreneurship and technology that are the sources of social change, not the state. It is not quite self-delusion, but there is a habit of thinking of oneself as a free-standing, independent agent, and of not acknowledging the subsidies that one received. And this goes on all the time in [Silicon] Valley."[97]
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
3. That is socialism
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:21 PM
May 2015

The only question is: Are the disbursement of the funds which constitute this action being socialism, being managed properly?

A capitalist would just count the profits while a socialist like Bernie would count the society-wide social and economic gains.

That's why a socialist as head of government is so important. Socialists do it best.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
4. Why did you add the word "libertarian" to the headline, when it appears nowhere in the article
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:53 PM
May 2015

nor in Musk's own words?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. Look at Musk's own political donations
Sun May 31, 2015, 01:07 AM
May 2015

For an alleged "libertarian" he sure donates a ton of money to Democrats; ten times as much as he does to Republicans despite claiming to be "half Democrat, half Republican".

Response to pscot (Reply #8)

pscot

(21,024 posts)
20. Musk seems to be some sort of iconic
Sun May 31, 2015, 10:35 AM
May 2015

culture hero. He has fans and plenty of ardent defenders. Wombat, otoh, don't get much respect.

Response to pscot (Reply #20)

pscot

(21,024 posts)
27. Humanity becoming a multi-planet, space faring species
Sun May 31, 2015, 05:22 PM
May 2015

seems unlikely, at least in any practical sense. I'd be more impressed if Musk could convince the pope to sanction birth control or get India to renounce coal burning. Humanity's future looks a bit dicey otherwise. Musk strikes me as a very modern iteration of the classic American confidence man; glowing promises, artfully hyped leading nowhere in particular. Just my opinion, of course.

Response to pscot (Reply #27)

Response to pscot (Reply #34)

pscot

(21,024 posts)
36. I can't say
Sun May 31, 2015, 08:41 PM
May 2015

I've given him a lot of thought before today. If he brings about the singularity that will definitely be impressive.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
11. Musk is a visionary genius and not a libertarian
Sun May 31, 2015, 03:51 AM
May 2015

SpaceX is revolutionizing satellite launching and space transport in general. He's a good guy, even if odd and antisocial. Why smear him?

Even if he were a libertarian, his work is too important not to fund

Response to LittleBlue (Reply #11)

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
16. Yep
Sun May 31, 2015, 05:00 AM
May 2015
I think some people just dont like technological progress at all, so anyone who does it successfully is some sort of "enemy"


Johonny

(20,833 posts)
21. Not really, there is clearly the libertarianish side of his message if you listen to it.
Sun May 31, 2015, 11:32 AM
May 2015

A) Elon Musk has hardly been massively innovative, but his companies are innovative to a degree (mostly to reduce costs)
B) he is massively anti-union
C) is not pro-regulation
D) is a huge propagandist of his companies (He clearly learned to market mundane things as massive new things like Steve Jobs)
E) has a vision of living on Mars free of our Government (Galts Gulch of the future)...

I don't dislike Elon. I've seen his facilities and his rocket up close. I think SpaceX is good at hype, but also has a functioning launch vehicle now. He isn't much different than most space companies only he's been better at fighting off oversight costs and unions. The illusion of Musk and the reality of Musk is all part of marketing. Don't be too swept away by his promise of future technology. He's just another big business that works partly off government funding that wants to maintain the total private company illusion. It is a mixed bag when dealing with him as with most people. Unlike most of the space industry that has purposely not marketed itself for the last 50 years, he has done nothing but that. He has changed space in a way no one else has. Space is now become very pro-marketing to a massive degree. That's his big innovation and it might not be a good one.

Response to Johonny (Reply #21)

Response to Newsjock (Original post)

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)
18. He is anti-union.
Sun May 31, 2015, 06:11 AM
May 2015

He may be for renewables and against climate change, but he is not pro-labor. That much is sure.

Response to joshcryer (Reply #18)

GreatGazoo

(3,937 posts)
15. Kind of a hit piece but Musk gets this a lot
Sun May 31, 2015, 04:09 AM
May 2015

The big car manufacturers want to ban direct to customer sales of cars to keep Musk from eating their lunch.

The piece seems to allege that if the customers of a company use tax deductions or other government incentives (for clean energy for example) then that equates to a government subsidy of THAT company.

The figure compiled by The Times comprises a variety of government incentives, including grants, tax breaks, factory construction, discounted loans and environmental credits that Tesla can sell. It also includes tax credits and rebates to buyers of solar panels and electric cars.


By that flawed logic, the IRS allowing businesses to write off expenses for gasoline equals a "subsidy" to Exxon Mobil.

The bias of the writer is betray here:

The payoff for the public would come in the form of major pollution reductions, but only if solar panels and electric cars break through as viable mass-market products.


"if" ?! Solar panel sales for 2013: $13.7 billion (US only).

This piece is a twisted attack on government support for clean energy and action on climate change.
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
24. So is Donald Trumps.
Sun May 31, 2015, 04:46 PM
May 2015

Without a bailout back in the 1980s, Trump would be washing cars right about now. I bet a lot of the well connected get all kinds of government kick backs.

sub.theory

(652 posts)
28. More of the same
Sun May 31, 2015, 05:53 PM
May 2015

Another example of how risk is subsidized but profits are privatized. If everything works out they keep all the winnings. And if it falls through then we will have foot the bill. Amazing how that works, isn't it?

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
30. Perhaps
Sun May 31, 2015, 06:32 PM
May 2015

However we will all benefit from many of the technologies he is producing.

The new wall battery will change the world. Well worth our investment.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
31. I love Elon threads.
Sun May 31, 2015, 06:33 PM
May 2015

I'm sure when he Googles himself (or has his staff do it for him) even he will be impressed with the levels of osculatory posts.

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