Is anyone watching C-Span for the Vote on Patriot Act & Freedom Act in Senate.......

[KoKo]

I have to say I gave up watching C-Span after Kerry lost after much watching in the earlier days of DU when I still believed in Congress "Working for the People."

I tuned in at 4 p.m.(EST) and have watched since.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED ....Since I left off watching C-Span all those years ago. "Smoke and Mirrors" and Rand Paul replaces Senator Byrd on the Iraq Invasion giving an incredible two speeches on Why the Patriot Act is an Abomination for the American People and how it's done NOTHING to Protect Us from Terrorists...but has invaded our Privacy and will Continue to do so.

I'm jaded...and realize SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG...here...with the LOBBYISTS and the REST owning our GOV'T. I guess we are are still some kind of DEMOCRACY...but showing how our Congress Votes.....showed me that LITTLE CHANGES whether DEM or REPUB....and the LOBBYISTS RULE.

That Rand Paul Guy would have been applauded for his Speeches on Senate Floor in our Lib Dem Days.....but THESE DAYS....we Long Time DEMS ....TRUST NO ONE....no matter WHICH PARTY.

AND THIS IS THE SADDEST PART......That SOME of US are DISAPPOINTED with BOTH PARTIES..the LOBBYISTS and the PARTISAN BEHAVIOR funded BY the LOBBYISTS.

I have turned off C-Span...because when I listened to Rand Paul and thought he made some Great Points and I am a Lifelong Dem...Liberal Dem then I know that there's some "Interesting Stuff" going on. And, I hope that "down the road" we can find a way to dig America out of this terrible "Right/Left" will somehow resolve itself when even people we find EVIL will stand UP for principles we Dems have fought for in late Last Century and this one.

But...we need to move forward....BUT...if you watched C-Span...the Evil Rand Paul did push Buttons and hopefully the RW will wake up and support Dems moving Forward.

You'd only understand my post if you watched C-Span starting at 4:00 p.m. for the whole thing and seen the Speeches.

I'm for Bernie...but, as Crazy as Rand Paul is.....he's got a good point about "Patriot Act" and somewhere along the way...maybe he can get RW Repubs to understand why we Dems and Edward Snowden's Revelations show that we Care about Citizens Privacy and and the Constitution.

And.....I'm Dem all the way..but, many have left us on the Right and if the Right could unite with some on the Left....we might be able to FIX what has Gone Wrong with America.

Just saying.........

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Yeah, taking notes, but news story to write

And trust me, I am quite jaded...

[katmondoo]

2. I found myself agreeing with Rand Paul

I wish it were a Democrat talking about the dangers of the Patriot Act instead of Libertarian aka Republican Rand Paul

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Rand has been 1000 percent consistent on this point

his dad was as well.

[Major Hogwash]

4. Fuck Rand Paul ~ EarlG.

Even the admin agrees with me about Rand Paul.
The only reason Paul is saying all of that horseshit about the Patriot Act is because he wants to lure some people in to voting for him for President.

He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Those of us who do not have a partian set of glasses

can see when a politician has been consistent and even, gasp I know... right.

His motivations, and I know a few libertarians, are those of most libertarians. If somebody you hate tells you not to put your finger on the stove, you might want to listen, or perhaps you prefer not to, and get burned.

If that is your choice, well then.

By the way, Wyden, who is ALSO a libertarian when it comes to this... but a democrat, agrees with Paul. They have been working together in fact, for GASP... years.

[Major Hogwash]

12. Rand Paul is a climate change denier.

Be careful what kind of glasses you drink out of, nadin.

[LittleBlue]

15. I have a hypothetical I want you to consider

If California were nearly out of water, and Rand Paul voted for a bill to get emergency water to Californians, would you oppose it merely because Paul supports it?

What you're taking about is abandoning all principles except opposing the other party.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Yes, yes he is

he is also quite anti union, and against the safety net. He has been going after the ACA for years... but on THIS POINT, he is correct. And trust me, when the history of this period is written, (at least for those who have a clue), he will have, with his dad, more than just a footnote. He will be joined in those write ups by people like Ron Wyden and also Udall.

As I like to quip, he is 20 percent right, and 80 percent wrong. Believe it or not, once again those of us who do not hate people, or take politics as a religion, realize that the views of a pol on climate change, where he is wrong, do not automatically invalidate his views on this. Nor does that mean, if you are able to do this, that if you agree with Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Wyden or Udall on this, that you will automatically vote for them in a given election. I take the FULL politician, not a single issue at this point. Nor do I vote on knee jerks or talking points.

Partisans hate. It is an exercise in neurobiology, one that is increasingly well understood. You are tribalistic, I am not.

That stove is hot, please do put your finger on it... since Rand is telling you not to.

[Major Hogwash]

24. "You are tribalistic, I am not."

You don't get to define me.
Period.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Sorry, but hard partisans on both sides

are exhibiting tribe like behavior. It is also our increasing understanding of neurobiology and the role it plays in politics.

I used to be in your boat, hated republicans... they are the worst, Bush the lesser had somewhat of an effect on that. Then I started covering sausage making, and realized just how much a lot of it is for show, for team players. You are a team player, I am not. Ergo you are a member of the tribe. I am not.

Then I also read a few of these reports from science and well... what can I say? I also understand cognitive dissonance quite well, which is one the issues at play. This is also dangerous, since as we understand more of this, it will be misused to control populations.


Here, some information for you

http://boingboing.net/2011/09/12/the-neurobiology-of-politics.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121101105003.htm

http://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-reality/how-tribalism-overrules-reason-and-makes-risky-times-more-dangerous

Now I got to write a straight news report... and I recommend you do not read it, nor will I post it here, becuase I intend to quote all three men who spoke tonight. That includes Paul.

[Major Hogwash]

34. You didn't learn anything about sausage making then.

Because obviously you believe that Rand Paul is giving his honest opinion about this issue.
Rather than him simply posturing for the 2016 election.

Incredibly, you act as if Paul was even capable of being honest!!

Not to worry, I don't go to boing boing to read anything you post there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. He is honest

just like my city council member who comes from that strand of US Politics, He is being very internally consistent in his philosophy. What is hilarious is that your inability to see that he is being honest, is that tribal behavior at play.

Don't worry, just like you hate him, he hates you. It's mutual. He can and is quite tribal too.

I just watch and reach for the popcorn. It is dangerous, becuase this kind of hate and hyper-partisanship can lead to civil wars, and it has in the past. But for the moment, pass the popcorn. This is highly entertaining. It is also far less boring than watching the Supers do the recognitions and read whereas...

[KoKo]

40. You make some good points, Nadin....

I'll leave it at that.

[Alittleliberal]

45. Ya he's a lunatic

His bad ideas are numerous and they are deal breakers. I would never give my vote to him, but he is right on this issue.

[peecoolyour]

28. There's enough Democrats who are good on this issue that I don't have to give Paul credit.

As a Kentuckian, I'd rather eat a bowl of horse shit than say a kind word about Rand Paul.

I'll never forget the day I first saw him campaign in person. It was the same day of that mining disaster in WV that killed 20-some workers. He mentioned that briefly, before warning us that we shouldn't let it be used to 'pass more job-killing regulations.' He spoke more passionately about that than the deaths of 20-some people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I covered his father at an event in San Diego

and one thing that I need to wrap my head around is whether he is even half as charismatic as his father in person.


What you heard does not surprise me, it is Paul, he is quite anti labor. One of the many things he is not correct on. But in the real world of politics, he is part of a coalition to end these programs. Yes, he will get the same credit his father got from me for dragging Bush and the Neocons though the coals in 2002 in the House. Would that mean I would vote for either? Hardly a single issue voter. But the politics of the Senate mean that yuo need to have politicians on both sides to agree on things like this.

Their reasons might (and likely are) somewhat different, but you would be amazed how close some folks can be on issues like this one. But if you only have team blue wanting to pass that we all jump when La Bamba plays, and team read does not want to... well that is not goign to happen unless team blue has a super majority.

Perhaps I missed this... would be embarrassing since I cover politics. Didn't the Dems lose the Senate to the Republicans in 2014? I might have missed my beat. But in the real world, you need people on both sides.

Don't give him any credit if it makes you feel better, but to get rid of this, you need him.

[KoKo]

7. That's what struck me, also.

Ron Wyden was totally against NSA Collection but he's totally for the TPA/TPP. He didn't give the kind of speech for the Democrats that Rand Paul gave to the Repubs.

That's the disgusting thing that turned me off, once again, to watching these C-Span Senate/House Debates...when all is decided in the Back Rooms and the Media is leaked crap and the American People can't parse all the machinations of the US House/Senate negotiations and we are left in the DARK UNTIL THE DEED IS DONE.

It's like reading an Insurance Policy, Credit Agreement or other Contract watching C-Span for Senate/House Votes because the Legalize and Maneuvers make it totally Foreign Language Translations for the Average American. "Cloture Votes/Floor Votes/Amendments in Back Rooms ...and then the FINAL VOTE on the Floor where the DEAL IS DONE...and it always ends up in favor of the LOBBYISTS, CORPORATIONS and the PAID OFF VOTES of House/Senate Members.

The C-Span View is for SHOW....it's already decided in Committee and we peons can't even understand the Legalize...and the Reporters for "Roll Call," "The Hill" and elsewhere just report Click Bait that there's some BIG DEBATE that we should STAY TUNED FOR....so they get their HITS for ADS.

It's very corrupt. I wish I hadn't bothered to watch it as a Citizen.

[Purveyor]

5. I'm watching and I hear ya... Wyden also doing good works...

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. So did the Junior Senator of New Mexico

Martin Heinrich (D)

[KoKo]

11. I wasn't impressed with his speech and I know he really wanted "Patriot Act" to Expire...

once upon a time. He was sounding like he thought the "New Patriot Act" (renamed the Freedom Act) was a GOOD THING. And...that's when I turned C-Span Off...having had enough!

I've given up on a "Midnight Switch" where "Patriot Act Goes Down and Expires" ....but, if any other developments take place ...please post here on the threat...because I've given up hope that PBO's crack down will allow Patriot Act to Expire. He wanted the "Freedom Act" and worked hard to get it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. No quorum

hmmm

[LittleBlue]

10. So it's effectively dead now, right?

All we're waiting for is midnight expiration, correct?

[KoKo]

14. Not from what I saw when I checked out after the Cloture Vote...

It seems that Patriot Act won't expire and they've done some deal about the "Fredom Act" getting ratified before Patriot Act Expires.

If anyone has new info....would love to see you post it. But, I couldn't take watching it anymore.

[LittleBlue]

17. Thanks

Guess I should have read up more on the procedural stuff and bill language.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. We are but they will reconvene

either Tuesday or Wednesday for amendments and final vote.

It is going to pass. The Freedom Act. Some of the reforms are needed. But the USPA is dead, but will be replaced by the child of the USPA, the US Freedom Act... how patriotic of a name!

[Jesus Malverde]

13. Sen. Rand Paul Speaks Out Against the PATRIOT Act

I wish these words were coming from a Democrat.

[KoKo]

16. Thanks..I know it's like Heresy to post this on DU but...if it was Kennedy or Byrd speaking against

Iraq Invasion there would be a huge DU audience loving what Rand Paul said...

I don't like him...but, what he said really is what we would expect our Democrats to say.....and that's the problem. We don't know if Paul is pandering to the Left or Really Believes what he is saying. But, he sure pushed some buttons for us on the Left who support Edward Snowden's revelations and are sick and tired of all of this Bush Era Spying which PBO unfortunately was either coerced into continuing or actually BELIEVED IN!

I thought he gave two very good speeches. (And, yes...I think he's kind of crazy)..but, I cannot deny that someone wrote him Speeches that should have come from Democratic Speech Writers because they sounded Dem Left rather than Repub Right.

[Jesus Malverde]

21. Agreed..nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. As I told Major Hogwash

I speak to folks from all types of politics. Libertarians (rIght, left and center) agree on the points he made. Of course, I am using Libertarian in the political science definition of the term, not the politics as a religion.

SO yes, both Paul and Wyden are libertarians, under that definition.

Now I got a story to write.

[KoKo]

32. Fascinating you include Wyden as a Libertarian....

He's agains NSA Data Collection in Patriot Act and fought to free the NSA Covered up report on spying where he got into it with DiFI...and yet he is ALL FOR Supporting...TPA/TPP.

So...yes..IS HE...a Libertarian with those two views?

Some of his constituents here on DU are pretty pissed off at Wyden......but, not sure how the rest of his constituents who support him square with this opposing views on both issues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. He is with civil liberties

he is a far more conservative on TTP and trade.

The term libertarian gets a really bad rap, partly due to people like Ron Paul... but it spans both parties, the way I used it. As I said, this is not your traditional my party or your party, but a political science definition. The third largest party in the United Staes, is the Libertarian party. Their right flank dominates. but they have a lot of people who believe in them in the far left. Like in things like the end of the war on drugs. That is a libertarian position. So is a strict respect for the 4th and 5th amendment, and the 1st.

hell, if I were to get very technical, people misuse the term progressive regularly as well... since historic progressives, like Teddy Roosevelt were Republicans. So when you look at the progressive era and who was what, and who called themselves progressives... the same thing happens with Libertarians. The actual philosophy spans way, wwwaaayyy more people than just one party.

[MohRokTah]

18. I turned the sound off.

Paul makes me cringe.

[KoKo]

20. He makes alot of us cringe...but if you find the transcript...you might find it interesting.....

[Jesus Malverde]

23. Have a few laughs about this sad matter.

[KoKo]

30. It's a good watch for the Humor and his focus on "Section 215" of the Patriot Act....

I did object to his characterization of Julian Assange for WikiLeaks Revelations....but, hey he's a Comedian and he was working within the System but still went FAR to reveal how ignorant our American and Euro Public are who don't quite know who either Assange or Snowden are and that does point to the Dumbing Down of US Media where Fox News and other Murdoch News Resources have made SURE that people are Dumbed down from Australia, to GB to USA and wherever else their evil Tentacles are reaching for Media Domination.

I thought Oliver does well on many points and he does make it catch to get his younger viewer to try to engage. And yes...he does it with humor which is needed when dealing with the dire subject matter for very busy folks who have little time when they are dealing with what we are all dealing with these days and one has to have some "funnies" to be able to communicate concerns without sounding too gloomy when you are dealing with your FaceBook, Cell Phone friends and family.

Thanks for posting!

[Jesus Malverde]

31. I like how the conversation changes when people are asked about naked pictures.

Sent to loved ones. You would never see that put bluntly on the " news" shows.

[sabrina 1]

25. I've been following the story and was going to write an OP today about some of the

demonstrations against it, and there are many, but the Corporate Media doesn't cover THE PEOPLE.

I didn't tune in to CSpan, like you it was my favorite channel during the Bush era but after the theft of another election I turned it all off.

I KNOW this will pass, that is why I didn't watch it, it is just too painful, even Bernie said he will most likely vote for the
'reformed' version, so that was a surprise.

Still, I haven't lost hope completely. I do believe we have a chance to begin to turn things around, not just with Bernie, but with those who will be running for Congress who will benefit from Bernie's success so we may be able to change the makeup of Congress a little also.

We are OWNED by people we do not know, did not elect and who bought our Representatives. It's going to take a long time to undo that Coup, because that's what it is, a Corporate Coup D'etat.

[KoKo]

39. I understand,"Sabrina 1"...I have an Update from Roll Call just posted...Smoke & Mirrors...

It's unbelievable how they do all this Double-Speak/Double Dealing while we are left in the Dark for the Most Part trying to get info from sources in the Media that we know are corrupted also.

Our legislation today is like reading a legal agreement where you need to hire your own lawyer to parse language for anything you sign from insurance to banking to buying a car. You can't understand the language because it's written to deceive you and unless you are wealthy or connected enough to hire your own lawyer to protect you you don't even know WTF you are reading or signing.

That's what watching C-Span does. It confuses you and gives one Head Fake as you watch voting that you don't know what it means over bills that are written by lobbyists with special legal teams who write it all to confuse and obfuscate. Then the Senate and House Rules and the rest allow all sorts of shenanigans to take place so you can't even understand what the hell they are voting on with the complicated "Rules & Special Procedures."

It's sickening and I wish I hadn't gotten back involved with all of it. Might as well turn it off and watch the Hacks on MSM tell you what happened than try to be involved or engaged like the CITIZENS we are supposed be doing.

No wonder there is such apathy out there. And, yet those of us who aren't Apathetic are being groomed to join the rest of the "Unengaged" as they do these stunts to keep the voters always on edge along with a willing MSM who just looks for Click Bait to get their ratings up by putting out all kinds of false stories just to keep people guessing how things will go which way or the other.

Whatever...... The UPDATE is the latest news...probably "The Hill" will have other reports.

[Jesus Malverde]

29. Some interesting comments from callers...nt

[KoKo]

37. UPDATE: 8:25 p.m. --The Senate voted overwhelmingly to advance the USA Freedom Act Sunday Eve..BUT

Senate Advances Patriot Act Overhaul, but Too Late to Foil Rand Paul (Updated)
By Steven Dennis

http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/senate-usa-freedom-act-patriot-act-rand-paul/?dcz=

Updated 8:25 p.m. | The Senate voted overwhelmingly to advance the USA Freedom Act Sunday evening, but too late to prevent Sen. Rand Paul from being able to force a short-term expiration of Patriot Act surveillance authorities at midnight.

The overwhelming vote Sunday came after Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., threw in the towel on advancing any short-term extensions of the Patriot Act authorities under the continuing objections of Paul, the fellow Kentuckian he has endorsed for the presidency.

The Senate voted 77-17, far above the 60-vote threshold to advance the bill. Several more steps are required, however, before a vote on final passage, which wouldn’t happen until Tuesday at 2 a.m. at the earliest in the face of maximum obstruction from Paul. And it’s starting to look like it could take more days beyond that.

Paul acknowledged the bill “will ultimately pass” as he began an hourlong speech Sunday night.

“The Patriot Act will expire tonight. It will only be temporary,” he acknowledged. But he said that forcing the expiration was still worth it, and believed most Americans agreed with him.

The administration earlier indicated that the point of no return for cutting off the NSA’s bulk phone metadata program is 8 p.m., and Republican leaders effectively gave up trying to prevent the expiration in the face of Paul’s obstruction. No more votes were expected Sunday night.

McConnell, who had previously voted to filibuster the USA Freedom Act, preferring a straight Patriot Act extension, switched sides but said he’d like to see it amended. That would require going back to the House, potentially delaying any revival of the Patriot Act authorities.

McConnell’s announcement came after several tense exchanges on the floor with Paul, including a testy back-and-forth with Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., who repeatedly accused Paul of not knowing Senate rules for when he is allowed to speak. At one point, McCain even objected to letting Paul talk for five minutes, before relenting.

“He would be the worst candidate we could put forward,” the GOP’s 2008 nominee later told reporters about Paul’s presidential aspirations.

Republican leaders now hope to finish up action to restore Patriot Act surveillance authorities in the coming days, calling the authorities of critical importance at a time of rising and sophisticated terrorist threats.

“This really does raise the risk to the public,” said Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn, R-Texas, who seemed to direct his remarks at Paul.

“It does eliminate one of the tools that the intelligence community has to identify homegrown terrorists, and it just seems to me to be reckless to not at least allow a temporary continuation,” Cornyn said. “But that’s not the way it’s working and unfortunately I think it’s, you know, part of a presidential campaign and people have to judge it for themselves.”

While this has now become an urgent matter, Republican leaders also had allowed the Senate to go home for recess for the past week, despite Paul’s threats.

Senators voting to filibuster proceeding to the USA Freedom Act were all Republicans: Susan Collins of Maine, Roy Blunt of Missouri, Tom Cotton of Arkansas, Michael D. Crapo of Idaho, Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, Jerry Moran of Kansas, Dan Coats of Indiana, Pat Roberts of Kansas, Paul, Deb Fischer of Nebraska, John Barrasso of Wyoming, Jodi Ernst of Iowa, Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, Jeff Sessions of Alabama, Marco Rubio of Florida, Jim Risch of Idaho and John Thune of South Dakota.

Some of those senators, however, made clear that they didn’t support Rand Paul.

“It’s not because I stand with Rand Paul, but because I believe that we’re not going to be given sufficient opportunity to correct some serious flaws in the House bill,” Collins said. “I believe that the House bill raises privacy concerns that far exceed what the current law allows.”

“It wasn’t because I was voting with Rand,” said Thune, the Republican Conference chairman. “I just think we ought to have more of an opportunity to fix the House bill.”

Thune said possible amendments included extending the six months in the House bill for a transition away from the bulk program and a certification that the technology is ready to do so.

Niels Lesniewski and Matthew Fleming contributed to this report.

[Johonny]

38. Somehow Obama managed to win, make the Republicans look stupid, and create a massive GOP wedge

all in one night. Obama got elected on the belief the Patriot act should be revised. With the Senate and the House against him... he managed to very likely revise the Patriot act. The recent court ruling probably helped him here, but it is still a major second term kudos for Obama. It won't be liked here because... there still a lot of odor in the Patriot act in total. But politically this vote tonight shows the mastery Obama seems to have over Congress ATM. He's about to also land a massive trade deal so his second term is becoming more and more substantial (if it is more liberal is another discussion). If he wasn't Obama, the media might even give him credit.

[KoKo]

41. Many of us will wait to see how it all plays out....

How the "Freedom Act" really turns out to be truly better than "Patriot Act." The "Devil will be in the Details." And many of us have learned to Verify before we Trust" because, in the end, it's all Smoke & Mirrors.

I assume you think that the TPA/TPP/TPIP is also a good thing that Obama is bringing us and that his Vision of how good this will be for American Workers, Environmentalists and the Peoples/Workers of the World that will be sucked up into this giving away of our National Sovereignty and for the other Nations Signing to Corporate Interests and the over-ride of our US Constitution and the Laws of Other Lands will be a Big Win for Obama. And, in your opinion that is all that matters?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. One of the points that Paul made quite explicity

is his fear the collection of data will move back to the TelCos.

Some of us do remember as far back as 2006 and the Bush administration.

[Johonny]

44. Why would you assume that.

My post is from Obama's perspective. He has landed one of his major objectives: reform the patriot act. He is about to land another. All while having the opposing party control congress. Any other president would be getting huge praise for his ability to manage a hostile congress and land key legislative victories.

As I point out the actual liberalness of his victories is another matter. I made no comment on that capacity.

[Major Hogwash]

42. Although, they call him a Lame Duck President, don'cha know.

Yet, he's more like a bird of prey, like an eagle, with all of his sharp talons out, flying straight for them!!