One haircut no Romney menfolk ever had

[riverwalker]

the one in bootcamp. Not Willard, or pappy, nor grandpappy, nor Willard's FIVE sons: Biff, Barf, Tad, Turd, and Thurston the IV (whatever their names are).

[11 Bravo]

1. Great. Fucking. Post. K&R

[Faygo Kid]

12. +1. OK not to serve. Not OK. . .

. . . to enthusiastically send other people's kids to their deaths.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. So you're implying McCain, by virtue of his service, was better than Obama?

That is an odd line of argument.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. i think she is just calling romney an elitist

very few families can avoid being drafted in entirety

[bahrbearian]

6. It is the trait of the Chicken-hawk to have others serve in their place.

So McCain isn't a Chicken-hawk

[freshwest]

7. You nailed it! Romney promoted the Vietnam War while living it up in France.

No wonder Crapantsfever supports him.

[nahant]

16. Mc Cain

So he served but if you bother to see all his Dad did for him(admiral in the Navy at that time) Including making sure he graduated from Annapolis, he was the bottom of the class and his jet was the one that started the massive fires on the USS Oriskiney during the Vietnam War which cost the lives o many very brave Saliors and while the fires were still burning he got to leave the ship and leaft his shipmate behind to fight the fires he started by the way. He pre-primed his jet before starting it (Go ahead use Wikipedia and look it up in is in the Naval inquiry into the fire)!! You might also look at what he did to stop any further searches for the POW's and how he treated the grieving wives (you can find that on YouTube) Mc Cain is a bloody stain on all those Veterans who served our country! Also the N.Vietnamese broke him and he made videos disparaging his fellow soldiers and the United States.. I could go on but... I did my home work will you???

[Scuba]

18. I'll forgive anything McCain did while at the hands of the North Vietnamese.

The rest, not so much.

[hifiguy]

35. Yep. McCain may have been a colossal fuckup as a Navy pilot

and a shameless, foolish old man as a presidential candidate, but at least he had the testicular fortitude to put his ass on the line and survive a prison camp with his honor and dignity intact when he was a younger man. Too bad he sold all that honor and dignity out some 40 years later.

[Chan790]

49. Why? Adm. Stockdale didn't.

He wanted him CMed.

McCain's actions did more than demoralize his fellow troops and POWs, they may have gotten people killed. He completely broke, he gave up everything: radio codes, information that might have compromised troop movements and objectives, made statements against his fellow troops, acted in a way that endangered his fellow POWs.

That's the difference between a heroic POW like James Stockdale and someone like John McCain. McCain folded like a deck-chair, Stockdale slashed his own face with a razor to keep the V-C from using him in propaganda films then spent the rest of captivity so tormenting his captors that they shattered his legs and left him in a bathtub with two infected unset legs so they'd never heal right or allow him to walk again without excruciating pain. Stockdale saved lives and banged the drum after the war to make sure that every POW and MIA was looked for.

One of these men is a hero who has been held up as the ideal of how to survive a long-term in captivity (They teach Stockdale's captivity actions in the service academies.) and one of the most-decorated officers of the Vietnam conflict.

The other is John McCain.

[Scuba]

50. Can you provide a reference for this? Not a challenge, a request.

I'm not sure I could have been as strong as Stockdale.

[Chan790]

51. Stockdale?

It's in most of his bios. I'll see if I could dig one up.

I've read a lot on the guy, it started as curiosity over who the heck this guy running with Perot was and he became somewhat of a hero. He made no secret of his dislike of McCain.

[Scuba]

52. No, McCain's behavior while a POW.

[hifiguy]

53. I never knew that. Clearly Stockdale was one tough

SOB. Wow. What a brave man.

[bahrbearian]

28. I know all about Ace, SongBird or Nightingale

He is despicable but he did go there, which in some sick fashion disqualifies him as a ChickenHawk. I was drafted but refused to go to Nam so I'm labeled a traitor. Upon edit do you know why his shipmates called him Ace?

[jmowreader]

29. I think it has something to do with the five planes he downed

Unfortunately for McCain, he was sitting in all five of those planes when they went down.

[bahrbearian]

30. I think that one of them were sitting on the flight deck behind him.

Last edited Fri May 11, 2012, 11:26 PM - Edit history (1)

[jmowreader]

33. That one, IIRC, is in addition to the five he was in when they were destroyed

I could be wrong, but I know the reason McCain is called Ace by his shipmates is he destroyed at least five American aircraft.

The question is, how many do aviators who aren't sons of admirals get to destroy before they're reassigned to the mess deck?

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. Done this before, and I'll gladly do it again. Your ignorance is such that one could cut it with a

knife. That is to say THICK.

"Pre-primed." What is that... priming it before you prime it? Is that all you know about the Oriskany Fire? For that matter, what do you know about jet engines? I'll tell you all you need to know, and take this for what it is... information from someone with almost 500 days of flight deck experience.

You're claiming (without really knowing what you're claiming obviously) that McCain intentionally caused his A-4 to spit fire when he started it. You're also claiming, (again unintentionally since you DON'T KNOW how flight deck operations go) that McCain's aircraft, while spitting fire, cooked a bomb hanging from the wing of the plane parked behind it that eventually exploded.

May I give you a clue? Since the advent of jet engines, no aircraft on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier has ever started its engine while its exhaust was pointed at another parked aircraft ESPECIALLY if that aircraft had live weapons hanging from its wings. That's just now how it goes.

McCain's aircraft was parked on the port side aft. It was TOW (I'm going to make you look this term up yourself). An AO, testing the bomb-rack on an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side aft caused a ZUNI rocket to shoot across the deck, hit the drop tank (an auxilliary tank meant to be dropped when it was empty) on McCain's plane and ignite it. McCain was simply sitting in his A/C waiting for his turn to taxi (and I'm not talking about a Yellow Cab) to the catapult.

When his plane ignited McCain kept his cool, and was able to climb over his canopy and exit his plane by jumping from it's radome (yeah maybe you should look that one up too) to the ground.

I know men who were there that day. Most of them knew men who died in the aftermath. Your stupid bullshit post denigrates those brave men who lost their lives fighting the fire, and those men who died below the flight deck when bombs on OTHER planes cooked off and exploded.

Post about things you know.

"I did my homework will you???" is fucking laughable. Fucking laughable and sad to the Nth degree.

I've got a few minutes... post and tell me ALL YOU KNOW about flight deck operations in the US Navy... I say a few minutes, because I think that's about all it will take for you to tell me ALL YOU KNOW.

[bahrbearian]

32. Posts that make me go hmm ya ok

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. I don't care what you go. I worked on the "roof".

It was without a doubt the most exciting albeit anxiety ridden job I've ever done.

Ever seen a man sucked into a jet intake? I have. I didn't know him. He went in head first and when they pulled him out of the intake all that was left was hips and legs. Flight operations came to a complete halt because he was sucked into the port intake of an A-6 that was on the catapult. 20 minutes later after the flight deck was hosed off and the plane was sent to the hangar deck because his body ruined the port engine, flight ops resumed as if nothing happened. To lose one man out of over 5,000 wasn't really that big a deal and you'd NEVER hear about it on the news.

I don't expect you to understand what it's like. Nor do I expect you to understand what it's like to work with jet engines running all around you. I certainly don't expect you to express any kind of knowledge pertinent to the fire on the Oriskany but that's ok. I forgive ignorance because the term isn't the same as stupid... Flight deck operations are like a ballet, and unless you've danced there, you have no way of knowing what they entail.

Rain? We flew. Snow? We flew. Rough seas? We flew. The flight deck of the USS America (may she rest in peace at the bottom of the ocean) was 62 feet from the water and in the North Atlantic I saw green water come over her bow because it was so rough. We flew.

Go hmm. I can excuse that because you're not stupid, you're just ignorant.

[caraher]

37. Thanks for your post, saving me the effort

There are a thousand reasons to loathe McCain without this idiotic urban legend about him starting the Oriskany fire. Not everything bad that happened within a mile of McCain was his fault, and I'd hope that Democrats would pride themselves on actually valuing facts and the truth over innuendo and "truthiness" as an important distinction between us and the Republicans of our day!

[hifiguy]

54. I can't even begin to imagine what your experiences

must have been like to live through. Truly and sincerely, thank you for your service and the immensely educational value of your post.

[panzerfaust]

44. Hummmm "...500 days of flight deck experience...."

Odd then that what you are happy to agree was "the Oriskany Fire" actually happened on the Forrestal.

The Toasted-O fire was a completely different episode, not involving McCain, which resulted from a mag-flare ignition.

Indeed, the Toasted-O was on her first deployment after being refitted from that fire, and provided support for USS Fireball in her time of need.

Also - the ZUNI hit White's A-4, not McCain's.
AND - McCain escaped by climbing down the refueling boom (long and walkable - look it up).

Nahant's post does, in fact, honor those who stayed and fought the fires, not the asshole who went down to the ready room and watched the fires on TV, before deserting the still-burning ship the next day for some "welcome R&R" (See my post below.)

Somehow I think I've got more time in the chow line ...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. USS Forrestal not Oriskany.

Now don't you go editing after flinging around "stupid and ignorant" accusations.

Ignorant indeed.

[panzerfaust]

43. USS Forrestal (aka USS Fireball) NOT USS Oriskiney ... Might also mention

that he crashed a plane during training in Corpus Christi. He claimed the 'engine quit' - but factcheck notes;

"McCain and others have written that the plane went down in Corpus Christi Bay when the engine quit, but Navy investigators concluded that the engine was still running when the plane hit the water, and said that the accident resulted from pilot error."
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/mccain-found-at-fault-in-1960-navy-plane-crash/

If you weren't the son of one famous admiral, and the grandson of another, that would have ended your flying career.

As he was both, McCain went on to fly another navy plane into power lines, and to crash yet a second.

Then there was the Forrestal fire.

What happened there was closely investigated, and resulted in many changes - including the relearning of previously forgotten lessons.

In the end, the - I think valid conclusion - was that no one person was responsible - just the usual unusual chain of events in any major accident.

However, McCain's actions subsequent to the accident were, speaking as a former sailor, reprehensible and clearly demonstrated his unfitness for any command.

"Whatever the circumstances of the fire’s origins, McCain did not stay on deck to help fight the blaze as the men around him did. With the firefighting crew virtually wiped out, men untrained in fighting fires had to pick up the fire hoses, rescue the wounded or frantically throw bombs and even planes over the ship’s side to prevent further tragedy. McCain left them behind and went down to the hangar-bay level, where he briefly helped crew members heave some bombs overboard. After that, he went to the pilot’s ready room and watched the fire on a television monitor ...



New York Times reporter R.W. Apple, who helicoptered out to the ship the day after the tragedy and sought out McCain as the “son and grandson of two noted admirals ...

When New York Times reporter Apple finished gathering his notes on the fire, McCain boarded a helicopter with him and flew to Saigon. Given that fires still burned on the ship and some of his fellow airmen were gravely wounded and dying, McCain’s assertion that he left the carrier for “some welcome R&R” in Saigon has a surreal air."
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081007_investigating_john_mccains_tragedy_at_sea//

McCain deserted his shipmates to their fate, he deserted his post in time of war. If there is a God of War - perhaps that is why he got to spend some hellish time as a POW.

Indeed, had any other pilot simply decided, at that moment, to - in McCain's own words leave for "some welcome R&R” in Saigon - it seems unlikely that they would not have been brought back under arrest.

Reportedly, the chain of command on Forrestal did not know McCain had left for some thirty hours - as only the most severely wounded were being evacuated.

Ask yourself, why would such a person not be court-martialled, much less be allowed to continue to fly combat?

Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that after his "welcome R&R" (taken while his shipmates still battled fires on the stricken Forrestal) McCain " ...went to London, where his father, Adm. John S. McCain Jr., was stationed as commander in chief of the United States Naval Forces in Europe ..."

Likely it did not hurt that "The investigation into the Forrestal fire was in the hands of Adm. Thomas Moorer, chief of naval operations and a close friend of McCain’s father. (Their friendship was why Moorer would personally convey the news to Adm. Jack McCain three months later that his son had been shot down in Vietnam.)

McCain is more of a disgrace to the honor of the military than Bush ever was.

[11 Bravo]

10. Yeah. That was it. Exactly. It's a clear as the nose on the face of anyone ...

who presumes to be the most pure, righteous and dying to be outraged about something, lefty on the planet.

[Ikonoklast]

14. You are the owner of a finely-tuned Bullshit Detector.

The meter on mine gets pegged by that one.

[XemaSab]

13. Wasn't Obama like 5 when the Vietnam war was going?

[Hissyspit]

17. No.

Keep trying.

[riverwalker]

20. Obama's family has veterans

His family has people who have served, his grandfather and great uncle on his mothers side. Willard's family, on the other hand, not so much. How many average Americans can look at their family trees and not find ONE person who has ever served in the military, as the Romney's? It's odd, but nothing wrong with that in itself, unless you actively support the wars and sending others to fight in your place. In Willards case, he actually protested against the war protestors.

[James48]

36. Obama's grandfather served.

in WW II. That's a fact.

[SemperEadem]

42. wow, that is the most non sequitur leap I've ever seen anyone take here.

[hifiguy]

4. DUzy!!

"Biff, Barf, Tad, Turd, and Thurston the IV"

[demtenjeep]

8. agreed

too funny

[KT2000]

15. Yep!

That is so funny I have to share it with some friends.

[Ruby the Liberal]

19. No kidding!!

I gotta remember that one. Hi-LAR-ious!

[treestar]

26. +1

It is a travesty that none of them served. There are five of them. Obviously none of them follow Rmoney's ideals.

[SunSeeker]

47. +1,000!!

Oh man, I'm still laughing.

[coalition_unwilling]

5. ROTFLMAO - You have a talent for names. Wife and I both laughing

maniacally at the roster of sons

[bluedeminredstate]

9. So funny!

Your list of names sounds familiar...aren't those Sarah Palin's kids' names?

Doesn't she have five children too?

[ibegurpard]

11. indeed

and gotta love the asshole smilingly protesting FOR the Vietnam War in his hipster slacks at Stanford when he got an exemption to serve a Mormon mission:
http://yathzee.tumblr.com/post/15301813303/mitt-romney-at-stanford-counter-protesting-vietnam
on the far right

[SunSeeker]

48. OMG, what a douchebag--same smile and all! Thanks for the link! nt

[riderinthestorm]

21. Interesting. Mitt forcibly assaulted a kid and gave him his version of a proper haircut

He openly advocated for others to be drafted in the military (and get their forced hair cut) even as he declined to go as did everyone else in his family.

Weird parallels.

[CanonRay]

22. Great Names!

[Smarmie Doofus]

23. Tee-hee.Too true.Guess they all had other priorities. n/t

[Vattel]

24. I don't see how that is a criticism.

[Chorophyll]

41. This relates to Mitt having held a kid down and cut his hair in prep school.

Because the kid was "different" and Mitt was such a big manly man, you see.

[cr8tvlde]

25. My Dad used to say this is a "Do as I say, not as I do" n/t

[spanone]

27. k&r...

[liberalhistorian]

38. Well, I don't know what his sons' names are,

but I think I like yours a lot better!

[DinahMoeHum]

39. As for the Romneys: Meow meow!

pssss pssss pssss pssss pssss!

[Chorophyll]

40. K and freaking R.

Great post.

[DesertRat]

46. Mitt: "My sons serve the country by getting me elected"

And the Romney boys names...

[FailureToCommunicate]

55. So true!

[HereSince1628]

56. Well, just to set the record straight, I served with a cousin of Willard in 1974.

We were stationed at ASA's Radio Research Field Station # 1 a.k.a. "Vint Hill Farm just east of Warrenton VA. IIRC he was a Spec 4.

At the time I didn't think anything about it other than it was a curiosity be in a unit that included a governor's nephew.