They Dared Me to Post This...

[qwlauren35]

(Actually, what I was going to post was worse, but this will do.)

Economic justice....

Would not have kept Walter Scott from getting shot in the back. Economic justice would not have changed the fact that the cop thought he could cover it up.

Economic justice would not have stopped George Zimmerman from assuming that Trayvon Martin was a criminal in the wrong neighborhood, casing houses for potential theft.

Economic justice does not stop black men in Mercedes Benzes and Lexuses, that they can afford with hard earned money, from being pulled over for stupid reasons.

Frankly, economic justice is not a personal priority for me. My life will go on if we don't have economic justice. "Poverty" in America is not like poverty in Africa or India. But racial injustice could mean that my husband gets killed. For something STUPID. Like a busted tail-light and a less than subservient manner toward a cop who is having a bad day.

Bill Cosby's son got killed on the side of the road. The man is filthy rich. Didn't matter.

If someone doesn't recognize Oprah Winfrey in a store, she gets followed as a potential shop-lifter. She's a billionaire. Doesn't matter.

President Obama is one of the most powerful men in the Free World. And because of him, the Tea Party came into existence.
Economic justice wouldn't have changed this one damned bit.

So there it is. Addressing economic injustice does not help black people who are part of the 1%.

Everybody wants to have enough money to be comfortable at the very least. I get that. And I'm willing to push for a higher minimum wage, and pay equity. Those are clearly issues that people of different races can agree on, depending on their political views. But it is laughable and educational that on a website for liberal Democrats there are people who downplay racial injustice. Especially educational. It is no wonder the Republican party thinks that they can win us over. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.

[pintobean]

1. Who are "they"?

[Renew Deal]

2. The Knights Templar

[qwlauren35]

27. Over in the African American Forum.

Things are a bit different over there. We are the majority. Makes a big perception difference.

[Stellar]

65. I'll have to check it out.

I never thought to look for an AA forum here. Thanks.

[NCTraveler]

81. I don't post in that group.

But have recently started reading it. Full of great information and experience. I will continue to make it one of my main stops here.

[heaven05]

49. really?

geez diminish and distraction, great tools for the low information person or for one who just doesn't give a damn about the serious problem of racism in this culture, that hits POC especially hard.

[pintobean]

54. It's nice to get an honest answer to an honest question

like the OP provided above. On the other hand, bullshit personal attacks can be amusing in their pettiness.

[heaven05]

62. the question is not honest

the snark is obvious and playing victim of personal attack is not respectable as a defense for "who is they?"

[randys1]

181. No, it is not. The snark is very obvious. yep

[Octafish]

63. Where's the personal attack?

It reads like an honest observation of what you posted.

[JustAnotherGen]

74. The op wasn't posted by Mr. Heaven05

I believe the person Mr. Heaven responded to has been pretty active in some of these discussions so it does come across as disingenuous.

The reality is - black people know better what's better for black people than white people -

And anyone can call me a bigot for writing that - but if they do - it's a lie.

I don't pretend to know more about what its like to be a gay white man -

Or a Lesbian woman of Chinese heritage -

Or a person with obvious physical disabilities -

I don't talk down to these people.

IF I did - I wouldn't have the 'brass' to pretend I'd never done so. . .

[Octafish]

90. That's great. pintobean and I don't approach conspiracy theory the same way.

He or she makes out that there isn't anything to it. I do.

So, when pintobean asks "Who are 'They'?," he or she doesn't mean it the same way I do.

[pintobean]

97. This isn't a conspiracy theory

[Octafish]

177. Thanks. I know.

I wanted to make out to the poster who was responding to my post about your post's background on why "Who is "They" had any bearing. Hence, the link to the Princeton study on the power of the oligarchs.

[pintobean]

95. No, I haven't been active in threads like this.

I read them, but rarely comment. As you indicated, another white guy's opinion isn't needed.
I asked who "they" were for perspective. It could have been family or friends, members here, or members of another board.

I have been very involved in some of the police shootings discussions. Heaven05 and I have tangled a few times over facts. He doesn't seem to like me, and brought that here.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. I posted this story here...

I used to live in Lake Mary, Florida and my buddy, Nate, who is black and in his late seventies, and I were buying a door to hang. We were at the Loews in Sanford. This white woman and her husband were shopping and she had her purse in the shopping cart. As soon as she saw us she took it out of the cart and clutched it. My friend Nate looked at me and said " I guess she doesn't trust us." That was sad.

[jwirr]

59. Some times things are not what they seem. Once was setting on a small bench at the mall and a

young black high school student sat down beside me - I moved my purse from the bench to the floor to give him more room. He made it clear that he thought it was for the purpose you mentioned above. I just shrugged and went on watching the crowd walk by. He went on believing what he wanted to believe. I suppose that I should have told him what I was thinking but he was so rude about the whole thing that I just let it slide rather than get yelled at.

In the case you are describing it does sound like she was an idiot.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. You can do the right thing and have it misinterpreted.

But as long as you know in your heart your intentions were good.

In this instance the woman sees us, knows we see her, and didn't even try to hide the fact she moved her purse to her cart.

[jwirr]

67. Yes, that happens here on the reservation also. To some in the community we are all bad period. I

really wish I could have had the nerve to talk to him. Some misunderstandings can lead to very bad consequences.

As to the woman with her precious purse you should have said "boo" and laughed. She was a real racist but yet I would guess she did not see it that way. Probably brainwashed by faux news and rw talking points.

[libodem]

4. Interesting points

I can tell you have really thought about this. I'm sure someone smarter than me has a challenge to your argument.

I dislike racial prejudice. It is created out of ignorance and fear. I fully believe it is learned behavior and has to be taught. I don't believe anyone is born that way.

I hope anyone who has it can be re educated.

[cali]

5. I double dog dare you to respond to this.

For instance, Scott feared being arrested and thrown into jail because he was behind on child support. How is that not an economic issue?

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/04/16/3647872/walter-scott-child-support/

The first time John Singletary met Walter Scott, the man whose April 4 death at the hands of North Charleston Police Officer Michael T. Slager has now attracted worldwide attention, Scott had fallen behind on child support payments, according to Singletary, and was trying to change his situation.

At the time, Singletary was the employment coordinator for the Father to Father Project, a North Charleston-based program that aims to help dads reconnect with their children and catch up on child support payments. Some men enter the program voluntarily; others are required to take the classes by a court order. The program's director estimates Scott entered the program in 2007 or 2008 but says he cannot remember whether he enrolled by choice.

"He owed child support," Singletary says. "Many of the people in there owed child support, and what he actually did was he came to the program, we got him a job, and then he started paying his child support, and from there on he was pretty straight."

Sometime after that, Scott began to slip on his child-support payments again. When Officer Slager pulled Scott over on April 4 for a broken car taillight, Charleston County Family Court had an active bench warrant out for Scott's arrest, according to a county spokesman. Reports have varied as to what Scott owed in back child support, but NBC News recently put the total at more than $18,000. Court records indicate that Scott had been taken to court before for missing payments.

<snip>

http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2015/04/13/walter-scott-attended-program-for-dads-who-are-behind-on-child-support-payment

The vast majority of the black men shot and killed by cops are POOR. Got that? That's an economic issues AS WELL as an institutional racism issue.

As far as the pos cop goes, nothing you legislate will stop crappy humans from trying to cover up their actions.

Now, onto those upper middle class black men that get pulled over: Yes, that's institutional racism and it needs to change. but those who live upper middle class lives live in safe neighborhoods, their life expectancies are longer. They don't need to worry about their children going hungry. Their kids go to good schools and are headed for college. That counts for nothing to you?

There is no evidence that the murder of Ennis Cosby had anything to do with racism. It was a robbery late at night on the side of the highway. He was changing a tire on an expensive vehicle

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94100

The disgusting and loathsome claim that "poverty in America is not like poverty in Africa...." is the very definition of a red herring. Poverty in this country, KILLS. It shorten lives. It imprisons those that can't afford or justice system. It degrades and humiliates. It literally causes brain damage. It lowers IQs. It means a shit "education". We have a large homeless population. I could go on and on.

[giftedgirl77]

12. See you missed the point entirely...

First of all what we are trying to say is that social injustices are effecting us irregardless of our economic status which is a major issue because even if people come out of poverty they still face the stigma of having dark skin. Some may live in nicer neighborhoods but once they pull out of their driveway they are free game like everyone else & that's where the fun comes in that you must be a drug dealer of some sort because you're black & driving a nice car.

You can pull any article you want to try & frame the debate your way but some of us have lived through this shit for years & can actually speak of real life experiences.

[cali]

17. I did not miss the point. The OP is lacking knowledge and facts.

and tell me how many upper middle class black men have been shot and killed by cops? Yes, it's disgusting that poc are racially profiled and we need to make some major changes to address institutional racism, but the FACT remains that poverty impacts poc disproportionately. Poverty dooms people as surely as any other factor. If we don't invest in such things as inner city schools, aren't we perpetrating institutional racism?

My point is simple: racial and economic justice are indivisible. Both are vital to achieve social justice.

[giftedgirl77]

21. No, what she is trying to say & even pointed out in her OP

is that while working on economic justice is great, fixing that will not help with the social justice nightmare that this country faces. Cops don't give a shit about your economic status once your skin hits a certain hue.

[raouldukelives]

98. This is very true. I truly believe the only way to change this is with education.

There is no other way in my mind. We need to teach, truly teach & educate our children to have empathy and on a more basic level, not to fear the unknown. To broaden ones horizons, to evolve, to enlighten.

We can only do this together. The bonds that separate us are economic, as well as geographic.
This is not done by accident.
Corporate takeover of education is preventing free thought and enlightenment in our children just as corporate donor classes ownership of our lands separate us from each other.

Working for the corporate state, in many ways, is no different than working for Donald Sterling.

And in the long run, in which every day tells us it can be an ever shorter run, is the death knell for all races.

[Number23]

224. Thank you for trying to teach the unteachable.

And reach the unreachable.

[AgingAmerican]

380. Yet

There will be no gains in civil rights without economic justice. Whichever group controls the money, the oligarchy or the people, controls the levers of power in this country. There will be no gains in civil rights with the oligarchy holding power, because civil rights threaten their power.

The more power the oligarchy grabs, the more militarized the police will become, and the more overt civil rights abuses we will see.

It's all tied together.

[qwlauren35]

32. I see your point. I just don't agree.

There are people who are pro-choice and there are people who are pro-life. They do not agree.

I have given up on trying to win over pro-life people. I accept that we don't agree. I just try to get the ones on the fence, and remind the Pro-Life people of the laws of the land, and that they are in the minority. But I don't try to change pro-Life people.

I am not trying to change you Cali. You have your perspective. That they are indivisible.

I disagree.

[uponit7771]

252. There are rich POC who don't get treated any different than Trayvon or Brown or Garnet

... please ask me how I know.

[KingCharlemagne]

275. Well put. - nt

[BainsBane]

356. If they are indivisible, why have we spent the last couple of years hearing about

how social issues are less, "Third Way," and not really important?

You just claimed that a black poster is lacking in knowledge and facts about racism. You claim to know more. I submit that is itself a manifestation of the problem. That you could even claim such a thing is astounding. You have exactly zero knowledge about what it means to be subject to racism in this country because you have never experienced it, yet you just denounced the OP as lacking in knowledge and facts. Not only do you have no experience, you think her experience is irrelevant. You just proved her point.

What we have here are people who assume their own interests are universal. They don't listen or care about what anyone else experiences: you denounce her life experiences as "lacking in knowledge and facts." Entitlement is not knowledge or fact. How could she possibly count on people to promote justice for her when they refuse to as much as acknowledge her ability to articulate her own concerns?

[lonestarnot]

42. You really need to educate yourself.

[giftedgirl77]

71. Maybe you should try listening to the POC on this forum

instead of just dismissing what they have to say. It could prove very enlightening to you.

[randys1]

183. Hey, I am a white guy and I know better about Black people and issues than you Black people

do



dear god...i dont know whether to fucking laugh or cry

[giftedgirl77]

185. It's been a pretty rough thread, the whitesplaining has been strong.

[TheKentuckian]

338. I get lectured by both the white and the well off, neither cares what I have to say.

and often am declared one, the other, or both so save your rollies.

The handful of blacks that you "listen too" (aka agree with) aren't the definitive voices of all black people because just like white people or any other racial group there is no such thing.

You want to "listen" then listen to us all and cut out the assumptions and no nothing lectures.

[sheshe2]

216. Dear goddess...

They just said you!!!!???????????

lonestarnot (73,589 posts)
42. You really need to educate yourself.

[giftedgirl77]

217. Well at least they didn't say you people.

This whole thread has been a delight.

[sheshe2]

220. Ooops, sorry posted twice.

This whole thread has been a delight.

Well, I will continue reading then.

[TM99]

231. And not all POC speak for me

here either. We are not a monolithic group bound by a small set of thoughts and positions.

I disagree with this OP who is doing the same damned divisive shit of separating social justice from economic justice when they are absolutely intertwined.

[giftedgirl77]

235. I wasn't speaking for you, I was speaking for myself throughout

this thread & others who are on the same page & face the same concerns that I do, especially when it comes to my son's.

[TM99]

241. Actually, yes you have as have others.

I understand your frustrations and fear. But I actually agree with Cali for instance. And I have yet to truly see a single poster argue that economic justice is completely separate from social justice.

No matter how often we use the words privilege, whitesplaining, micro aggressions, etc. it will not change the psychological reality of bigotry and prejudice. It can not be legislated away either.

I am bi-racial and have experienced bigotry and prejudice from blacks, whites, and hispanics. No, having more money won't get rid of all of that bigotry and deep institutional racism, however, when you are not in poverty, no matter your race, you have more psychological freedom. You can begin to look within when encouraged to do so in order to learn to empathize what these experiences do to those not in the majority cultural position. But when all are struggling at that lowest rung of the ladder for safety, financial security, and the like, no one is going to challenge their own preconceived perceptions. They only care about feeding their children, paying off their growing debt, and whether they are even going to have a home or a job tomorrow.

[giftedgirl77]

247. I have been at the very bottom, I started there living in

the projects in Miami. I saw my first friend die before I was 13 & have been swarmed by the police with guns drawn & in our face's too many times to count. I sowed up my first bullet wound that was given to my friend a gift from a cop at 16. My first home with my son was a rental that I paid $300 a month for, we didn't go outside because of the shootings & random drug paraphernalia that could be found laying around.

Eventually I joined the military to get my kid's away from that shit & you know what, even living in a neighborhood where the homes were well over $200,000 my 9yr old got a shotgun pulled on him for walking on the curb so he wouldn't get hit by a car (even though the white kids cut through his yard regularly to get to the neighborhood pool).

My oldest is 17 we now live in a very economically & racially diverse neighborhood yet a moderately small city & my son's are hassled regularly by the cops. So while your opinion may differ some of us have vastly different views & experiences to back them up.

[TM99]

258. All you have done is agree with me

that there is institutional racism that can not be addressed by either economics or social justice. It is a psychological thing that will take a long time to correct.

But we don't dismiss the need to address both in a discussion of what do to politically in this country.

I just wish the Third Way (socially liberal, economically conservative) candidates and politicians did not use this as a wedge issue within the Democratic party in order to divert attention from the fact that THEY are the ones who have separated social and economic issues, NOT traditional Democratic progressives.

Please don't buy into it just because you have children and are scared. We all have loved ones we are scared for and about.

[giftedgirl77]

260. Nobody said anything about being fiscally conservative.

The very last paragraph of the OP clearly states otherwise. I'm not afraid of anything, I just want my son's to be safe & not have to be afraid of the cops every time they get pulled over or see one nearby.

While not everything can be addressed through legislation we can fight to make it a more socially just world for us.

[TM99]

263. The last paragraph defense

is laughable.

Everybody wants to have enough money to be comfortable at the very least. I get that. And I'm willing to push for a higher minimum wage, and pay equity. Those are clearly issues that people of different races can agree on, depending on their political views. But it is laughable and educational that on a website for liberal Democrats there are people who downplay racial injustice. Especially educational. It is no wonder the Republican party thinks that they can win us over. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.

Comfortable at the very least? They are willing to push for minimum wage and pay equity. Nothing else? How about money in politics? How about the greed for profit medical model? How about the MIC? How about the incredible pay inequality between the CEO of any given corporation and his/her employees? How about the abysmally small amounts of food stamps or disability benefits?

And again, the accusation that there are people here who downplay racial injustice. Every time we ask, show us these posts, we get nothing. chirp....chirp....chrip. Then we get some us versus them yay Democrats against the evil Republicans.

I am sorry but yes, this is the same old tired shit that Third Way neo-liberalism has engendered in the left since the 1990's. Now many just believe it is their own thoughts and not the propaganda or double-speak.

Making sure that men, women, gays, and POC all get $15.00 an hour minimum wage by 2020 is NOT economic justice. It is not even close. But hey let's focus solely on racial and social justice by doing what exactly?

[BrotherIvan]

253. Exactly

[WestCoastLib]

371. Nor me

Sorry, but as a black man myself, I do need to chime in simply to not let others speak for me. There are a lot of us that are not interested in the divisive aspects of championing social justice. And the desire for so many to be diminisve of the economic justice aspect is really just crazy, IMO. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[BainsBane]

372. How dare she speak about what it's like to experience racism

When you know so much more? Absolutely unfucking real.

[zeemike]

259. Well you cannot change what is in people's hearts and minds

Even if you think you can by social and political pressure...and in fact it usually causes people to plant their feet.

But economic justice you can change, and there is a clear link between the two of them...in fact you cannot have one without the other.
But it can be used to divide us up, one pushing for one and the other pushing for the other when the facts are they ARE linked. And if you solve the economic injustice the other becomes weaker and weaker all the time.

[GoneFishin]

277. Particularly when people at the bottom are hurting, racism is a useful wedge issue for Fox News

types to divide us against ourselves by framing economic issues as YOU versus THEM.

How often has unemployment been framed as a "THEY are taking your jobs" rather than the truth which is "we sent your jobs overseas to make our stockholders giggle all the way to the bank"?

Or another favorite, "illegals are sneaking across the border to take our jobs and get free welfare" rather than the truth which is "we like undocumented workers who have to stay in the shadows because we have them by the balls and are defacto slaves".

You are correct. If people were not teetering on the edge economically the roots of racism would grow weaker.

[unapatriciated]

261. I understand...

economical justice will help but it won't protect you from racial injustice. If we don't acknowledge that it is a major problem we will never fix it.

[qwlauren35]

20. Double Dog Dared.

Don't forget the Lexuses and Oprah.

Or my husband.

Or the Tea Party. Which had nothing to do with economics when it emerged, even if it is now bankrolled by people with a vested financial interest in keeping it going.

I accept that you can argue that it was a combination of economics and race in some cases. However, I think they can be separated. And there are cases, lots of cases, where race is not a factor, but poverty is - ergo crimes against poor white people. And there are cases, (check the Mellody Hobson, CEO of Ariel Investments, who was there with Congressman Harold Ford to meet with the press and got dragged into the back and told to put on a uniform because she had to be "the help&quot , where economics is not a factor.

But then, why are you trying so hard to rebut me?

Why does it matter so much to you to be right that you dismiss examples of racism that are not linked to economics?

To me, this is an example of someone who is more interested in fighting economic injustice, talking to someone who is more interested in fighting racial injustice, and defending the idea that fighting one addresses the other, SUGGESTING (I'm not saying definitely you, but it can be interpreted) fighting economic injustice should be "good enough", and if someone is not invested in fighting racial injustice, it should be acceptable.

Frankly, we "accept" it constantly. We have no choice. we are only 14% of the population, and we don't have enough power to force people to fight racial injustice. So, sometimes, we are STUCK accepting the fight for economic injustice. But we don't have to like it.

[cali]

24. You really didn't address my points. And I've said over and over that

racial justice is vital, that dismantling institutional racism must be a priority, but you almost entirely dismiss the impact of poverty on minorities.

You seem blind to what economic justice actually is. Reverend Barber and the Moral Mondays movement in NC is a great example of the marriage of economic and racial justice to achieve social justice- which encompasses both.
And Reverend Barber has emphasized the importance of both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mondays

[qwlauren35]

30. Why did I need to address your points?

I accepted, clearly, that Walter Scott had financial issues.

Didn't I say that? I thought I did.

However, only about 27% of black people are technically poor. I don't know the numbers of those who are "on the verge of poverty".

Cali, I don't see things the same way that you do. And I accept that your view and my view are different.

You seem to want more than that. You seem to want me to come over to your view. Why? Why can't we have separate views? Why can't we agree to disagree?

[cali]

34. Let's agree to disagree. However, that 27% of black people are below the official

poverty line- a line that is artificially drawn, is horrifying to me. You say only. I say that's a national disgrace. That's over a quarter of the AA population and it is a nightmare for millions. For whites, the poverty rate is 10%. And one in five children in this country now officially lives in poverty. It's kills. And I do believer that the rate of black poverty is directly tied to centuries of institutional racism.

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/

[frazzled]

72. But Cali, let's look at the statistics

a little more closely. The US Census Bureau estimates the 2014 population at approx. 318,000,000.

The white population is approx. 77% of that figure, or 244,860,000 people. 10% of them, or 24,486,000 are living below the poverty line.

The black population is approx. 13.2% of the total, or 41,976,000 people. 27% of them, or 11,333,520, are living below the poverty line.

So ... the number of whites living in poverty is more than double the number of blacks living in poverty in this country.

Yet we know from further statistics that whites are not pulled over or shot by the police at double the rate of blacks. Indeed statistics show that nationally (and it's much worse in some geographic areas than others, that a black driver is 31% more likely to be pulled over. And while only about 2% of white drivers are subjected to searches in such stops, nearly 7% of blacks and Hispanics are searched. More than 3 times likelier. Let's not even talk about incarceration rates or death by police.

So economics factored out, statistics reveal racial imbalances of significant proportions. We need to investigate these disparities outside questions of economics: in terms of bias, bigotry, racial profiling and other issues that may not mean much to us white folk, but can mean life or death, freedom or incarceration, to a person of color. And that have deep historical and sociological roots in this this country.

Both issues—economic and racial injustice—are vital. But to subsume the latter wholly (or even mainly) under the former dangerously ignores issues of vast importance to communities of color. We need to listen to posters such as the OP and not belittle their real-life experiences and justifiable fears.

By the numbers, poor black people suffer social injustices in far greater numbers than equally poor whites. You just can't write that away.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show/

[giftedgirl77]

103. Thank you, this is an excellent post & relates very much

to what we are trying to say, but our daily real life perspectives keep getting shot down or dismissed.

[cali]

109. who is writing that off?

Not I. But others are writing off that black Americans are disproportionately in poverty compared to whites. The absolute numbers do not tell the story the way the percentage of different races in poverty, do.

[sheshe2]

221. +1

[Number23]

226. I'm only here to say thanks to those who are still trying.

Your post was excellent. Thanks for that.

[sheshe2]

229. You are welcome, and thanks.

I am not even a quarter of the way down the thread. I keep stopping to respond.

Dear goddess.

[Tarheel_Dem]

376. It won't be acknowledged by some, but I appreciate your presence in this thread.

[mountain grammy]

44. The tea party recruited racists, but it's founders and financial backers have remained the same

since the beginning. It worked because we elected a black president, and racists, who have succeeded with institutional racism since the beginning of America, had just suffered their worst defeat. That said, it was almost entirely about changing the conversation to economics and the redistribution the wealth of America's billionaires back to the people they stole it from. They were alarmed that a black man won the presidency in a landslide and just might ask for some of that treasure back. After all, no group in America was robbed of their wealth more than black Americans and American Indians, and no one knows this better than the American robber barons. It is important to keep the masses in the dark, uneducated about our history, and fearful of, first the indigenous peoples, and later, the slave labor that built the wealth of those who are ruling us today.

[heaven05]

52. don't have to respond

just go....geez So 18,000, allegedly made Mr. Scott worthy of execution. Well doesn't surprise me since money is king in this system. If you don't have it and happen to be a POC facing a system where money is king, IF you run afoul of that system, you can be executed for it based on your skin color and a broken tail light.

[jwirr]

64. And poverty gives the Rs "evidence" that they should cut programs that help to alleviate poverty.

The Rs convince the voters that it is the black people who are the users and takers. As long as it is okay to tell this lie then the Rs are also giving people an excuse for racism.

They go hand in hand.

[99th_Monkey]

269. Thank you for providing some perspective

to the OP.

I was thiinking/feeling much the same way, but was too lazy to write it out so nicely like you have done.

Thanks for a great contribution to the subject matter.

[BainsBane]

373. How many people in this thread

are going to claim they know more about racism than the people who actually experience it? Do you have no idea how absurd that is?

[99th_Monkey]

374. No more or less absurd than trying to muzzle someone's opinions

because of their race or ethnicity.

We are all in this together. Just because my skin happens to be white
does not make me a 2nd class citizen or person; any more than being
black or brown does.

We need to begin discussing race honestly and openly, and stop trying
to muzzle or insult one another based on race, and this cuts both ways.

Forgive me if I have misconstrued your intent

[BainsBane]

375. Muzzle someone because they are white?

Seriously?. No, you aren't in it together. You have told the OP her experience with racism is wrong, that she is ignorant for believing she experiences racism and you know more about it. What you mean is YOU are in this and the rest have to tow your line. You are not discussing race honestly. You are performing privilege and telling people of color their experiences don't matter.

You don't know the first thing about what it's like to face racism and pretending you do is hubris. There is no way in hell I am in this with you, and if you read the AA group you would know many of them aren't in it with you either, and responses like those in this thread are exactly why. An honest discussion of race does not amount to telling a person of color her experiences are uninformed or ignorant. What that shows is an incredible level of contempt for the lives and views of anyone but yourselves. You assume you know what is best for others, but you refuse to even acknowledge their rights to discuss their own experiences with racism. If you continue to treat people this way and you will find fewer and fewer people in this with you.

I have never in my life encountered such reactionary views on race and gender among people pretending to be on the left. It is shocking. No where in my community, in no Democratic party meeting, would anyone behave this way. You all are living in the mid-20th century and have no desire to relate to the citizenry as it exists today. The ignorance is entirely on the part of people here telling this woman of color she is "uninformed" about what it is like to be black in America and it is cavernous. Like every self-entitled group, you assume you know what is best for others, when you don't even grant their right to speak about their own lives and concerns. You expect everyone to fall in line around your goals. This is exactly the kind of shit I was talking about in my OP on defenses of misogyny. You all repeatedly dismiss the concerns of others and then claim we are in this together? There is no We. There is YOU, what you all want and your assumption that the rest of us should do your bidding. Hell no. Not in this lifetime. Those days are long over and if you aren't going to figure out how to relate to people of different backgrounds without dismissing their lives and concerns, you will find few want to be in this with you.

[99th_Monkey]

381. It's ok to chew gum and ride a bike at the same time

This whole "economic justice v. social justice" kerfuffle is just stupid imho. This
is not an 'either/or', it's a 'both/and' situation; and until we fully embrace both,
we're basically going to lose ground on both fronts.

These 2 issues are BOTH incredible important and inextricably intertwined,
and to pretend otherwise, by insisting on exclusively focusing on one while ignoring
the other or giving it a back seat, in my view is just plain silly, not to mention being
hugely divisive, and therefore counter-productive.

For the record, I haven't even posted ANYthing to the OP, rather I
was replying to cali's post here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6783892
with this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6788043
saying essentially that i appreciate bringing some a both/and perspective to the discussion.

I NEVER even said I even disagreed with the OP, as I do NOT disagree with the OP. The OP
has every right to express their views imo, and I welcome those views and agree
with them as valid and important to the discussion.

So far on this string, you have accused me of:
1) "performing privilege and telling people of color their experiences don't matter."
2) having "reactionary views on race and gender"
3) "assuming you know what is best for others",
4) "pretending to be on the left"

I HAVE DONE NONE OF THESE THINGS. NONE.

Although I think it would be fitting, I don't expect you to apologize for these false and vile accusations;
because you appear to be so fixed in your views that you're not willing to consider any other perspective
as valid or worth considering at all. Which only illustrates my point, which is that pretending these
two issues are unrelated or that one is SUPER important while dismissing the other as "reactionary"
or "racist" is playing into the 'divide and conquer" agenda of the 1% and I refuse to do that, just
because someone with a different view insults me unjustly.

ON EDIT: It seems relevant that 91% of DU Peeps appear to agree that it's both/and:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026754005

[BainsBane]

385. True, you did not

You simply agreed with one of the people who did. One can only do both if they care about both. The clear argument here is that race does not matter, or that it only matters for the poor. The argument is that people of color are not fit to voice their own experiences and interests, that only the few chosen white people understand what really matters.

You merely agreed that a person of color was "lacking in knowledge and facts" when she talked about the racism she experienced. You then said that my suggesting you didn't know more about what is was like to experience racism amounted to "muzzling people based on race" and that telling a black person she was "lacking in knowledge and facts" about racism amounted to an "honest discussion of race." That most certainly is a performance of privilege, and there is nothing leftist about any of it.

As for social and economic justice. What is amazing is that people have no qualms about turning arguments around on a dime when it suits their own purposes. This entire division of social and economic was created here by the self proclaimed true leftists/liberals. The ones who pretend to be the only true leftists have for a very long time told us that social issues were less important than what they care about--TPT, their anger at bankers, and drones. They have insisted those social issues were "Third Way." That efforts by DOJ to defend voting rights and extend civil rights protection to rape victims on college campuses amounted to nothing or worse, yet, violated the constitutional rights of men. They openly decry the party's efforts to appeal to women and people of color, its most loyal voters. One leading light even claimed that corporations had sent those groups into the party to divert it from its true mission of representing the working class (presumably white, male). People who money systematically go around DU insulting people far less prosperous that themselves as being allied with Goldman Sachs and the 1 percent for failing to prioritize their class interests as opposed to the rights and concerns of those insulted. Now you all claim there is no distinction between social and economic justice, when it is clear the only economic justice being proposed is the restoration of the white upper-middle class and middle-class to what it sees as its birthright atop the capitalist world order. Poverty should be addressed by throwing the poor a few food stamps. Racism by promoting the white bourgeoisie existing agenda and just trusting that what they want will take care of the problems of people of color. In response to questions about how to heal the divide, they respond by saying black people need to get behind opposing TPP, or NSA surveillance disproportionately hurts them. How? Based on what? It's bullshit, a transparent con job. And sexism, well forget that. C....ts like me need to keep our mouths shut and stay in our place. Who are we to imagine we even deserve to be treated as human beings. There are "real issues." Who are we to suggest our lives matter.

So you tell me exactly who this we is that are all in it together because it sure as hell doesn't include me. That has been communicated to me quite explicitly.

[99th_Monkey]

386. I really appreciate your taking the time to discuss this

Maybe I missed some of the content you refer to in cali's post, as it was quite long.

I took cali's post to be what I stated that I agreed with: that both are important, not only in
their own right, but because they are inextricably intertwined. So a both/and approach is what's
sorely needed, so we are not shooting ourselves in the foot.

When I say "we", what I'm referring to is Democrats, especially those of us who DO deeply
care about both equally across the board. Maybe that doesn't include you, maybe it does.
Only you know that. i'm not going to presume.

[giftedgirl77]

6. K&R for being absolutely right...

Well said.

[cali]

10. anyone reccing this doesn't have a clue.

the op doesn't think poverty in this country is an issue. It damn well is and a it's a huge issue for AAs. Just ask the folks from the NC NAACP who have been organizing moral mondays.

Poverty DISPROPORTIONATELY impacts minority communities, from environmental issues, to education to health. Poverty degrade and demeans and grinds down.

One is much better off being a middle class person of color than a very poor white or hispanic or anything else. Why? You can live in a safe place. You don't have to worry about where your child will get his/her next meal. Your kids attend a safe, decent school. If your child becomes ill, he/she can get decent healthcare. Lots of poor people are not on Medicaid and have no access to healthcare.

The point is that both racial and economic justice are the two vital pieces that constitute social justice.

[giftedgirl77]

16. Thank you for whitesplaining it to me Cali....

Maybe the people trying to shout it down should actually try listening to those of us who are minorities with children that have also dealt with this bullshit & actually know what we are talking about.

Maybe you should try listening to us instead of dictating to us something you have never experienced or ever will.

[cali]

19. and thanks for trying to shut me up. Won't work. I do listen. Shockingly

other people of color may disagree with you. It's hardly a monolithic opinion in the AA community that poverty economic justice is unimportant.

So no, just because you tell me to, I'm not going to sit down and shut up.

[giftedgirl77]

22. Ditto & I know who my allies are.

[qwlauren35]

25. But we didn't say it was unimportant.

We are saying that they are distinct, and fixing one does not fix the other.

Fixing racial injustice does not fix economic injustice. I bet you would agree with that.

We are saying that fixing economic injustice in general does not fix racial injustice in particular.

And you are fighting this. Really hard. I don't know why.

I'll give you an example. Covenants. Put in place to keep black people, even wealthy black people, out of white neighborhoods. That was not economic injustice, even though it has created an economic problem. As a result of covenants, black people don't typically have the benefit of houses that increased in value, don't have wealth to pass on to their children. Don't have secure retirements. But will economic justice fix this? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because the point of economic justice is not to go back and give money to those who were cheated out of it. No reparations.

It's exhausting to fight this. So I won't anymore.

[mountain grammy]

60. I really think that racial injustice is the main cause of economic injustice.

Given America's history, I just can't believe anything else.

Long after slavery was abolished, there was slavery and black Americans were actually lynched for the "crime" of success. Whole communities of black Americans were slaughtered for the "crime" of prosperity.
Institutional racism has thwarted economic justice since the first white settlers set foot on American soil.

[Sheepshank]

36. good god, can't you give this tactic a rest?

with the lowest for of resect, you bludgeon people that their opinions have no merit and only your opinion has merit. You are wrong to do this over and over and over and frankly on this topic you are very wrong.

No one is trying to shut you up...so quit with the martyr thing. you are only asked to be respectful of opinions that may differ from yours.

[cali]

38. sorry, when someone announces on DU that poverty isn't a big issue

and that "only" 27% of the AA community lives in poverty, I damn well will speak up.

and I never feel like a martyr, sheepshank.

Don't like my opinion? Fine. This is a discussion board and I intend to keep discussing issues forcefully.

[Sheepshank]

58. You were attacking prior to the remark ^^^

to state that you are being told to sit down and shut up, completely smacks of some martyr issue...especially when no such thing is happening. You go ahead and be strong in voicing any policy issue, but when you start attacking others for the same action, then you are way off the mark.

[gollygee]

76. Who has said poverty isn't a big issue?

Either in this thread or at DU ever?

[cali]

84. saying that poverty in the U.S. isn't the same as poverty in Africa and India

is dismissing it as an issue. That is word for word how the rightwing does it. Economic justice is about dealing addressing poverty. Dismissing economic justice as not important is dismissing poverty. And claiming that "only" 27% of the black community lives in Poverty, is being dismissive of of that horrifying fact.

[gollygee]

88. I think she was trying to give her perspective and explain why she had it

rather than trying to say that it isn't a big deal. It isn't as big of a deal as racial justice to her, because as a POC she sees racial injustice as more of an immediate threat. She knows her life and if that's more of a threat to her than economic justice, that speaks to how bad racial injustice is more than anything else.

[lonestarnot]

43. I am going to rec. based on your insightful responses. You got it damned straight!

[sheshe2]

222. AA don't have a clue? They are reccing the OP.

anyone reccing this doesn't have a clue.

Also, you keep responding to AA members in the thread and correcting them. Why do you claim to know their life better than they do? Why are you explaining this to them?

Poverty DISPROPORTIONATELY impacts minority communities, from environmental issues, to education to health. Poverty degrade and demeans and grinds down.

One is much better off being a middle class person of color than a very poor white or hispanic or anything else. Why? You can live in a safe place. You don't have to worry about where your child will get his/her next meal. Your kids attend a safe, decent school. If your child becomes ill, he/she can get decent healthcare. Lots of poor people are not on Medicaid and have no access to healthcare.

So, they are better off being in the middle class and they will be safe? Who the hell are kidding? They live in fear when their child walks out the door? What stops them from being profiled stalked and shot? Do they carry a little card with them that states, I am part of the middle class, I am safe, don't shoot me.

Yes, I am white. I read and post in Af Am a lot. I believe I am accepted there. I also post threads about race in GD. However, I would never presume to tell a person of color that I know far better than they do as to what is important to them. I would never presume that.

[TheKentuckian]

345. Sure you do as soon as we don't toe the line you want.

[uponit7771]

256. No one said poverty wasn't an issue just it doesn't matter how much money is make PDs like Fergusons

... will always hate folk because of the color of their skin.

Trayvon lived in a gated community

[Sancho]

354. Cali...sorry, you didn't do your homework on this one....

economic justice is a SUBSET of Social Justice in most definitions. In other words, economics is a PART of social justice which includes opportunity for education, mobility, fair treatment, legal justice (due process), and many other issues.

In other words, it's quite possible to have economics (as examples were given) and still lack social justice. SJ is not a unidimensional construct, nor does it depend on ONE basis (like economics) as necessary to support all the other parts.

One reason I don't like Bernie's position is that he's too focused on economics to the exclusion and non-attention to many other topics. Also, the economics may be the most difficult to change with government policies and simple ranting.

I really like the idea that there's a path to citizenship, voting rights, women's rights, and fair supreme court justices. In fact, those are social justice ideas that would have an impact on millions with doable policies and changes. Economics would follow, but without those changes there will be no true social justice.

[Starry Messenger]

7. K&R

[el_bryanto]

8. So we should just drop concerns about corporatism and lack of regulation?

and if we don't I take it we are racially insensitive at best?

Bryant

[uponit7771]

257. No, just don't conflate getting rid of those 100% will end male POC being 21 time more likely to be

... shot by cop even though blacks are less likely to be in possession of a weapon

[carolinayellowdog]

9. "So there it is. Addressing economic injustice does not help black people who are part of the 1%"

got your message and the values implicit therein

[Ichingcarpenter]

11. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.

sorry my life has proven that absolute an aberration in my life's journey.

but maybe you haven't walked my path.

[1StrongBlackMan]

48. Interesting. n/t

[Baitball Blogger]

13. Economic justice will result in more minorities moving into

Last edited Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:21 PM - Edit history (2)

white suburban communities, where large pools of hate and entitlement spread unfettered across generational lines. There is no one here to challenge them. And it is from this white suburban nuttery nursery that racist feelings are spread around easier than stock tips on a golfcourse.

You think it's only black men they fear? Imagine driving by neighbors who are out walking on the street. The husband waves a friendly smile, and the wife ropes her children in her arms in a protective stance. What are we supposed to make about that?

I know exactly what's going on because I have seen it before. Some people were raised in racist families where they were indoctrinated to fear people who are different than they are. Some of them know that these fears are unfounded, but that's not enough to stop the ones in the family who are perpetually damaged.

The irony is, that they only add to their anxiety because they think it's their manifest destiny to collude against the interests of the weakest members of society. So we who are fighting these battles on our own are in a bad situation because we not only have to learn how to defend our rights (which takes money) at the same time that we don't add fuel to the fire because we are dealing with the impressionable perceptions of the next generation.

[1StrongBlackMan]

68. Interesting ...

But economic justice will result in more minorities moving into white suburban communities, where large pools of hate and entitlement spread across generational lines unfettered. There is no one here to challenge them. And it is from this white suburban nuttery nursery that racist feelings are spread around easier than stock tips on a golfcourse.

Do you think it's economic injustice keeping Black folks out of those "white suburban communities"? ... Or, might it, more directly, be discrimination in hiring and pay ... discrimination in real estate transactions, from real estate showings to mortgage lending?

[Baitball Blogger]

83. It is a combination of the two.

I would say that discrimination in hiring and pay is associated with economic injustice.

Discrimination in real estate transactions is something that is measurable if someone does field work. Simply send potential buyers into communities to see how the realtor responds. Sometimes it's the realtor that sizes up the situation. I have heard a young realtor who referred to our community in insular terms. She acknowledged the fact that we may have seedy people in our community, but they are our people. Everyone else is unknown and, presumably, that's even more undesirable.

When you consider that this community is 90% white, you can't help feeling like the comment was on the racist side.

But, listen 1SBM, I don't think, anymore, that the federal method of putting up affordable housing in cities like mine is the answer to equality. Now that I know how the status quo games the system, it's almost unfair to bring minorities into this environment where their dreams will surely be shattered. The sad part is that they will have no idea what they did to attract such bad luck into their lives. What they will never have access to is the private meetings that go on around here all the time, where people advance their own causes and those of their inner circle at the expense of everyone else around them.

You have to break those entitled circles before you can have any hope of equality on a community level.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Who is downplaying racial injustice here?

Who here is opposed to championing the idea that everyone gets treated equally?

[1StrongBlackMan]

70. Those saying that economic justice will bring social justice ...

which has been repeatedly, if anecdotally, proven false ... yet, they persist with the same argument.

[riderinthestorm]

89. I haven't seen that. If anything it's an argument that both are equally important

or that racial justice like the OP is more important.

Not saying it hasn't happened but I'd like to see whose saying it on DU.

[1StrongBlackMan]

93. What does this mean to you? ...

There is NOBODY downplaying racial inequality on DU. Even those whose primary concern at this point in time is economic justice still champion social justice.

[gollygee]

94. Especially when someone

who says racial injustice is her primary concern gets the replies the OP is getting. If one person can have economic justice be a primary concern without ignoring racial injustice, surely the OP can have racial jusice be a primary concern without igorning economic injustice.

[riderinthestorm]

96. I would point to Elizabeth Warren whose locked in a battle with Wall St

and the banksters.

She's not oblivious nor unsympathetic to racial justice. Nobody would call her a racist. She's simply consumed with her battles for economic justice at the moment. Frankly, I don't think there's enough hours in a day for Senator Warren to tackle more than she's doing at the moment. So I would answer a universal question of "who is they?" with E. Warren with a qualifier that her interest in racial justice isn't diminished by her action on economic justice.

Beyond that however the implication in the OP is that there are DUers specifically who aren't advocating for racial justice. I was asking who on DU is actually doing that. I almost always see the two issues linked by most DUers. The only ones who appear to de-couple them go the other way like the OP.

[giftedgirl77]

107. The OP didn't de - couple anything, what she did was merely

point out that irregardless of economic status social injustices are still a major issue for many of us POC. People that cannot realize that the two aren't always intertwined is an issue for many of us. Some people think that by just pumping money into economically disadvantaged areas is going to somehow solve the social justice issue, that is just false.

Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.

[1StrongBlackMan]

111. Perhaps ...

Some people think that by just pumping money into economically disadvantaged areas is going to somehow solve the social justice issue, that is just false.

Perhaps, that's because (they think, and cannot/do not want to see beyond the thought that) more money will solve all of THEIR problems.

[giftedgirl77]

115. Well when your skin isn't brown it may...

But like it has been stated time & time again when you're a POC if you're riding in a benz or audi you'll get pulled over bc they assume you're either a drug dealer or it's stolen. Our social injustices don't disappear because we climb the economic ladder.

I don't understand why this is so hard to get.

[randys1]

188. Wait, something needs to be repeated a few thousand times

Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.
Just because a black kid gets a job doesn't decrease his chances of being shot or beaten by a cop.

[TheKentuckian]

355. Yes it does. What it doesn't do is reduce the difference to zero with a white person of the same

means. Sure, it depends on the job as junior partner at the firm will yield wildly different results than fry cook but even a fry cook is probably going to have less interactions with the cops and better ones when they do happen than a homeless person.
Cops ask you were you work for a reason.

It also means if you get sucked into the system you have a far better chance of not becoming a prison statistic. It means insurance is always in order, that tags are up to date, that your vehicle can be well maintained, that you can have a vehicle and not be hanging on corners for busses and hoofing around making you a sitting target for interactions, it means not depending on always overwhelmed and absurdly underfunded and too often complicit public defenders, it often means useful connections, it means not functioning by hustling doing what you got to do at the edges and on the other side of the law taking chances that generate interactions because you have to have some kind of resources to survive at all, it often means very different associations in that you are around people significantly less on the radar, it means not looking like an easy mark for extraction, it means better education and being able to deescalate a bad interaction, it means being in locations where enforcement is not riled up by default, it means being on a pattern and so not sticking out as much.

Yeah, it really fucking matters. Not having parity with whites of the same class doesn't mean there are not real, serious, and critically important benefits all the way back to in some cases being able to buy your children's freedom or not being sold into slavery in the first place.

You cannot seriously suggest that black people are jailed, targeted, beaten, or killed at the same rate regardless of wealth. Not that the wealth is a magic inoculation against such indignities and injustices because it isn't by any stretch but to say the numbers are the same regardless is somewhere between fanciful and outright dishonest.

You can repeat nonsense as many times as you like but it still will be hyperbole at best and just as phony a proposition and probably closer to untrue than the reverse.

[1StrongBlackMan]

108. That is the problem, NO ONE is saying ...

that fighting, exclusively, for economic justice make one a racist ... that is, merely, the voice in your, self-interested, head.

What I/we are saying is those that arguing economics justice will bring social justice are flat out wrong.

[giftedgirl77]

117. [phone]

Wrong as wrong can be.

[riderinthestorm]

124. Uhm, the OP is about what's in her head and I don't dismiss that

because I realize it's also in others' heads. Please don't presume to know what my interests are. You don't know me. I rarely participate in these types of threads because the usual posters have worked out their own code. I asked who "they" are in the OP because that seemed relevant to the OPs point and maybe that point was obvious to those who usually post in these threads but it wasn't obvious to me.

I see s/he hasn't yet answered that question.

You've jumped on me for simply asking.

So now I'll ask you, who is arguing economic justice will bring about racial justice?

[1StrongBlackMan]

130. So it's all in our heads? Thank you! ...

You don't know me. I rarely participate in these types of threads because the usual posters have worked out their own code.

True. I don't know you. But perhaps if you limited your, infrequent, participation to reading rather than talking, you might understand what is being said.

I asked who "they" are in the OP because that seemed relevant to the OPs point and maybe that point was obvious to those who usually post in these threads but it wasn't obvious to me.

Since you seem to be wrapped around the axle of the "they" point ... the "they" refers to the readers of the initial OP the writer posted early in the AA Group. Many of those early readers warned her that posting it to DU:GDher would get just the denialist responses that are found in this thread; other, encouraged her to post it to DU:GD (I suspect as a reminder), so that there would be no question as to the liberal mentality.

[riderinthestorm]

144. That's just bullshit. I was referring to her thoughts, not that she's fabricating things

you're dishonest in the extreme.

I'm bi-racial so get the fuck over yourself telling me to shut up and listen.

There's no indication that this OP was a carryover from the AA group so how would anyone have context except those "in the know".

Your post is ugly and a new low. You aren't really interested in conversation - you're desire to simply tell people to shut the fuck up instead of actually giving some context the FIRST time I asked, is noted.

I'm off for the day. Feel free to have the last word. You are so not worth the effort.

[1StrongBlackMan]

148. What do we write, other than our thoughts? ...

I'm bi-racial so get the fuck over yourself telling me to shut up and listen.

I know you are bi-racial ... you have spoken to that before. But where have I raised anything about your racial background? Do you think recognizing the fallaciousness of the economics justice will bring social justice is racially dependent?

Perhaps, you should explore that mental connection, a bit more.

[Cha]

240. Exactly, 1Strong.. sad the way they play the victim card and insist they're being called "racists"

when they're not.

Such a spindly self defense mechanism.

[Orsino]

273. Becoming the kind of nation that consistently creates a net increase in economic justice...

...will bring along every other sort of justice. One could say the same about any other form.

It is just not possible to work on any one sort of justice in perfect isolation. People with an opportunity to demand certain rights are less likely to accept restrictions of others.

[PowerToThePeople]

15. The great thing is, you do not have to choose.

You can work for both, unless you are a fascist who is unwilling to address one or a bigot who is unwilling to address the other. Both the bigot and the fascist are human dung who have no place in a decent society.

[Rafale]

18. Good post (the original one) albeit reductionist

Justice in general is a function of socioeconomic status. Without cash, you get to represent yourself pro se in court or perhaps with a public "defender." Think about it if you should ever get thrown in jail for not being subservient enough to the next cop that pulls you over for a broken tail light. The injustices mentioned in the original post are indeed multivariate; it's not just race that is the issue. The main issue is a system rigged against the 99 percent and ethnic/religious minorities. Changing it will result in violence because no matter how peaceful the 99 percent may be, the 1 percent has a different view.

[NCTraveler]

23. Excellent post. It is unfortunate that one has to be concerned.....

about posting something like that here. It's common sense, except for those not willing to see or if it goes against their narrative. Then again, it seems like a group has found tolerance and acceptance within themselves since yesterday. Unfortunately, it seems to be tolerance of hate.

[cali]

26. Reverend Barber heads the Moral Monday Movement in N.C., as I'm sure you know

That movement weds racial and economic issues because those that lead this amazing effort recognize that they are inseparable.

And sorry, but saying that poverty isn't a big deal in the U.S. is a a horrifying claim. And false.

[NCTraveler]

28. "And sorry, but saying that poverty isn't a big deal in the U.S. is a a horrifying claim. And false"

No need to apologize. Very accurate statement. You really shouldn't feel bad for saying it. Just as the op shouldn't have to be concerned about posting common sense.

[Prism]

29. "Poverty in America is not like poverty in Africa" - staggering privilege

You know, Republicans say the exact same thing all of the time, arguing that our poor don't have it so bad.

Curious angle of approach there.

I'm in the social justice and economic justice must be pursued together because they are entwined camp.

Edit: And I just want to note how staggeringly privileged this OP is. Ok, you don't really care about economic justice. Fine, you don't. You then go on to say people want to be "comfortable".

I get the feeling you don't really understand poverty. I mean deep poverty, the kind that we have in our inner cities right now. Poverty isn't about comfort. It's about having enough to eat. Having a roof over your head. Having stability for your children so their brains are prepared to learn. It's having adequate medical care.

Communities of color receive far less health care than whites in this country. It is, quite literally, killing them. And I imagine the numbers of people dying from lack of health care far, far, far outnumber the people being killed by police.

Social justice is very important. Racial injustice is very important. We must never stop fighting it, ever.

But this post really comes from a place that I don't think understands what poverty is in this country and what it does to communities. I see it every single day.

I think this OP is a privileged misfire. You have some points in there, but the blithe dismissal of what poverty is is a little, I dunno, heartless.

[historylovr]

41. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Surely there's a better argument, OP, than using that particular talking point to make your case?

I, too, believe economic justice and social justice are inextricable, by the way.

[qwlauren35]

45. You're right!

I have been broke, but not poor.

I'm not sure that I'm heartless so much as pissed off.

I posted something about poverty a few weeks ago, and it was pointed out to me that the truly poor, the elderly, the disabled without help, have no rescue in sight. The children suffer. I know this firsthand. Not going to give details.

What I'm looking at is that there is a wealth of people who want to fight poverty. In all kinds of ways, from all kinds of angles. And it's going to help our poor, of all races, if we do it right.

But it won't make racial injustice go away.

[Prism]

46. I agree with you

Racial injustice will not go away solely through application of economic justice. Economic justice does not exist if institutional discrimination limits access to it by any community.

[heaven05]

101. +1000

nailing it with THE TRUTH, continuously. People out here know exactly of which your OP speaks. Those who don't have to face racism, can use the economic meme as a way to discount the pervasive and hateful nature of a lot of citizens, some even hiding behind a badge and a gun, toward other citizens, precisely and ONLY because of the color of their skin. Thank you for a timely and true OP.

[heaven05]

99. I get the feeling

that you don't understand american systemic and institutionalized racism and it's impact on POC, economic status notwithstanding. Or maybe you just don't face it with the trepidation felt by one of color who happens to have an gun toting 'authority' eyeballing your person.. Also I think this poster understands well the effects of poverty on the poor, both POC and others. Racism is the demon, money is the demon's tool, among others.

[Prism]

106. I understand it just fine

I do social work in Oakland of all places. Believe me, institutionalized racism and its effects on PoC communities is not a very difficult spot around here. There are days where it is not uncommon to look at a situation and declare, "Holy fucking shit, America. Really?! Best we can do?" And what's useful is that San Francisco is just across the Bay, so you have this immediately accessible direct comparison to make between two cities. The way the governments of Oakland and S.F. treat PoCs is very different, and the racism in Oakland institutions is more readily perceived. It gives one of the starkest views of how differently communities can be treated. (Not that S.F. is entirely angelic here. But Oakland government/police are a mess).

I simply think lack of economic opportunity was too blithely dismissed in the OP. Its effects are far-reaching and profound.

What's interesting is that I think 95% of DU is actually in agreement on the economic vs. social question, but for some reason we've decided we're all going to fight about it. I think it's primary/candidate driven. Circular firing squad, where people who all want the same thing try to find some minor semantics or verbiage to go full coliseum on the situation.

It feels counterproductive.

[heaven05]

129. well said

but at the end of the day, do you face racism, on any day because of the color of your skin. You may observe it, but are you a recipient of it? Economics in this money is king system is a very important factor. Yet even with economic equality, many will still be denied equality based on their skin color. Just a sad fact. Racism is too readily dismissed by so many here, and I'm not saying you have dismissed it. Those many are just not willing to accept that the two, economics and race relations, are two different and exclusive problems faced by those who aren't confronted with racism on a daily basis. And I do respect what you must observe in your difficult profession. One of my ex-wives was a social worker.

Hell I just hope that we come together behind the candidate chosen in the primary(s) and we defeat the evil, regressive policies that the RW want to try to put into place that will hurt the many that don't belong to the 1% club..

[Prism]

132. No, I do not.

I am aware of that. Just a super short story real quick.

I grew up poor, then working class. My parents were on welfare. But they never lost their house. We always had a car. When health issues hit, they filed bankruptcy. Twice. They still kept their home. I've been poor and broke as an adult, barely hanging on. And yet, even during the most stressful times, I had a sense that everything would work out. There was always some avenue to explore. There was always some solution to reach for.

And that was because of my white privilege. There was always some open door somewhere, some path to being ok.

I have never personally felt the profound despair many PoCs in poverty feel, that there is no path out, that there is no opportunity for elevation from their circumstances. I have never been without hope like so many of them have been.

As you said, I can observe this. I can hear people talk about it. I can indirectly experience it at work (trying to help someone and seeing doors inexplicably shut in their face). I can feel rage and empathize. But my privilege has so far shielded me from experiencing it on that personal level.

Those experiences have taught that racial injustice is a major driver of economic injustice. My parents had access and means to hang on. Institutional racism shuts PoCs out from many of those things. We cannot have economic justice without racial justice. It just doesn't work.

[JustAnotherGen]

31. Well done qw

They want you to explain - who? They want you to explain - where?

No worries - Drop the mic!

[giftedgirl77]

37. I told her, I would have her back & as per the usual crowd

we got the "we know what's better for you speech". Nobody wants to listen to real life, firsthand experiences they would rather quote from textbooks than listen to what we have to say.

[JustAnotherGen]

73. Or - that

Girl they sat next to 18 years ago in an Amway Seminar.

[giftedgirl77]

75. Of course someone immediately had to start their own

OP on why the two absolutely must be tied together after they were shot down in here. The we will always know what's better for you meme is so tiresome.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. And you post a link

And I'm going to go tell that person why they are wrong.

They are just wrong.

[giftedgirl77]

86. Oh it's even better, they ignore the social justice aspect all together

& claim people are ignoring the economic side are wrong & not liberals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026784461

[JustAnotherGen]

92. That person is always like that

that's their thing!

My thing is sort of along those lines - getting people fed who fall through the cracks. The thing is -

In my community - if affluent blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and whites - helping to serve our white community.


Yet - the affluent Hispanic kids were getting stopped when the state police came in here a few weeks ago.

Why? Brown skin.

Their parents posh home matters not one whit - those kids could have been shot and that exact same poster would have avoided the post just because it was a rich kid - albeit brown.

Utter fucking bullshit from these people.

I wonder if they only like poor black people? Like - do they hate those of us that aren't on snap and tanf? Is there some hidden resentment there?

I don't get these people -AT ALL.

[giftedgirl77]

100. I've tried to explain the fact that once we leave our front porch

our economic status doesn't matter one iota but it keeps falling on dead ears. We used to live in a neighborhood where all of the homes cost over $200,000, all of the kids used to cross through this one guys yard to get to the neighborhood pool. I always told my kids to walk around, basically because I thought it was rude to walk on other people's grass. One day my 9 year old was walking on the curb because there were no sidewalks, the guy came out with a shotgun, pointed it at him and told him that if he ever saw his black ass near his property again he would shoot him.

The white kids in the neighborhood were hell raisers, my kids were pretty much on lock down as were the black children across the street & down the road. But the minute something happened the first fingers were always pointed in our direction. My kid's learned very early on the hard lessons of it doesn't matter one iota how much money you have your skin tone will always trump that.

We now live somewhere else which is a lot more economically & racially diverse & life is a lot quieter.

[JustAnotherGen]

152. Ahh - it's 1978

And the old man neighbor across the street tried to run me over in my own front yard. I was five. He didn't realize the neighbor catty corner (then a Rochester Police man) and our next door neighbor saw him DELIBERATELY come at me with his car.

Five.

In my own neighborhood. In 1978. In Western NY.

White kids in America don't have these experiences to share - kill you you little nigger and a guy wanting them dead for being brown.


Think about that. Your child and I had the same experience.

Ohhhh - but white folks at DU who are absolutely RESISTANT to anything other than what they 'know' - will LIE to us and tell us it's not that bad, or it's okay because we weren't poor.

They are so selfish!

[giftedgirl77]

159. Selfish & clueless, dude down thread just told me he's going to

give up on racial issues after I called him out on his bullshit Issa comment. Something tells me he wasn't really for the racial issues in the first place. They just think by including minorities in the economic justice piece everything will be fine & dandy.

[JustAnotherGen]

164. I know - I responded too him

And I linked your little boys - your CHILD's - experience with mine to same poster.

I bet you HIS kids neveeeeeeeeeeeeeer had that happen.
I betcha his little precious angels were just precious and he neveeeeeeeeeer had that worry.

Must be nice being so damn comfy and cozy and SAFE.

[giftedgirl77]

168. It's weird how many times my 17yr old has been pulled

over yet never given a ticket. They love the excuses of rolled through a stop sign or failed to properly signal & we live in a pretty small city. He always gets stopped & hassled but never gets cited. Thankfully he knows how to handle these boys down here, he knows his life depends on it.

[randys1]

189. White privilege on display like nowhere else, in these discussions.

[randys1]

191. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

will you STOP fucking WHINING

So I see you were absent the day it was explained to you that if a white MAN wants to RUN you over, since you are NOT white, it is his birthright?











What is so sad is how you can have that life experience and still tolerate the white privilege shit that is thrown in your face DAILY on the street AND in places like this...those who tolerate what you and others tolerate are simply displaying the greatest amount of patience and decency imaginable.

[JustAnotherGen]

214. randy calm down my dear friend

I'm just out here, shaking things up making things happen, living the life!

Oh yeah - and my dad has just retired from the service - Green Beret!

There was that.


Guy realized my dad was friends with the Sheriff, sold his house, and moved away.

[randys1]

215. LOL

[giftedgirl77]

219. Aww tell your pops congrats...

One of my saving graces is my disabled vet tags I'm sure of that.

[JustAnotherGen]

225. He was a good guy

If you go to DU2 - you can look in my journal - and see my post about his last vote. A genuine sweetheart - but he could be a genuine bad ass if you threatened his wife, kids, family, friends, or country.

[giftedgirl77]

227. Yeah a lot of us are like that.

[heaven05]

102. +1000

[1StrongBlackMan]

184. LOL ...

wonder if they only like poor black people? Like - do they hate those of us that aren't on snap and tanf? Is there some hidden resentment there?

As a long gone Black DUer once noted: White liberals so love Black folks ... so long as they are poor, servants or victims.

[giftedgirl77]

186. As stated in the most recent OP, "lets pretend racism is fixed"

[Number23]

232. "I wonder if they only like poor black people?" How much shit have the black posters on this site

gotten for being educated, well traveled and (relatively) affluent? Never mind that as the OP noted, 27% of black folks like in poverty which means that 73% do not. Never mind that traditionally, most folks on the Internet will be more affluent than others. Somehow we are ABNORMALITIES because we don't fit these people's pre-determined and ignorant as hell ideals of what a black person should be.

I bet one of the main complaints against us is that we're all Thrid Way!! Third Way!! and despite having black families, living in black areas, being involved in black organizations and causes that we just "don't understand" our own communities. And of course, these white folks -- especially the ones that crow about how they live in the most rural of areas -- know us better than we do.

So you already know the answer to your question. Right?

[JustAnotherGen]

233. Yes I do!

[Number23]

237. I've lived in a few countries and no matter where I go, I am STILL BLACK. I always will be.

Both in my appearance and in my beliefs. That is not going to change.

I currently live in a very white country. But I know more Liberians and Indians and Malaysians and Indonesians and Papua New Guineans than most Liberians and Indians and Malaysians and Indonesians and Papua New Guineans do. Even in the whitest places in the world, I still seek and will damn sure find color. Because my black experience as a minority makes it very important for me to do so, for both myself and my children.

[Number23]

228. I hope everyone gives that OP and that particular poster the attention they so rightfully deserve

And judging by the current recs and responses, that's exactly what's happening.

[giftedgirl77]

230. That one died so they tried a new approach which I call

blindness.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6786076

[Number23]

234. This is what you we all need to do, gg

[giftedgirl77]

236. Lolololololol, right or this...

You can always tell when one is losing a debate, when they run away to start their own narrative.

[giftedgirl77]

333. I don't know, I've only been here for 2 years but from

what I understand yes a lot of AfAm posters have just given up on the place because of it. Even in here some decided they must take the path of calling us Third-way & the like all over social justice concerns.

[Rex]

33. Who would treat their workers right, if they don't have to treat them like human beings first?

You touch on a very important aspect of this; you can have civil right without having economic justice - yet you cannot have economic justice without civil rights first.

One is dependent on the other, while the other can stand alone.

Minorities are continuously denied economic justice and more and more denied their civil rights by the very people sworn to protect those rights.

That needs to change ASAP. This is 2015 and if we want to pretend to be an 'advanced civilization' we better dam well start acting like it!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

50. ^ women are also part of that equation. Economic injustice is gendered as well as racial.

I agree, you can have civil rights without economic justice, which is basically civil (or gender. Or Human) rights on paper only.

In real life, anyone with a decent wage has better access to more safety, more justice...but still, poc and women of any color are less safe, even in the "good neighborhoods".

[Ed Suspicious]

91. In a society where money is political speech, it seems obvious that the impoverished will be

necessarily exposed to greater injustice. The more money one has, the more one is in position to weather injustice. The more money one has, the louder the voice one has to advocate for one's own interests.

[ismnotwasm]

35. I already see certain posters ignoring your last paragraph

*sigh*

Excellent post!

[qwlauren35]

40. You saw that! :-)

Yup.

Maybe the recs are the people who see the last paragraph.

And the arguments are the people who were too busy reading the first part.

[ieoeja]

51. Your last paragraph was the ONLY part of your OP with which I disagree.

There is NOBODY downplaying racial inequality on DU. Even those whose primary concern at this point in time is economic justice still champion social justice.

[ismnotwasm]

53. Yes there is.

[JustAnotherGen]

79. Wrong

And I'm not going to link to a bunch of posts.

I think as a pretty vocal AA member and a host -just go peruse the group.

Seriously - dig around.

We aren't doing the work anymore.

You'll see the "what the fuck was THAT" threads back there.

It is an absolute truth -hell - that's ALL Averagejoe90 got away with an applauded for - for a couple of years here. Funny - some of his buddies showed up on this thread.

[ieoeja]

110. I had a few go arounds with that asshole myself.

You're right. I wasn't thinking of the pro-gun group. That bunch is usually pro-economic justice as well. But firearms are their primary issue which is why I didn't think of them when talking about people championing economic justice.

If DU banned every racist member of the pro-gun group, the pro-gun group would probably have no more than a couple members. They want to kill the gun issue so badly, they tolerate a lot of extremely blatant racism by that bunch. I always assumed they fear a hard stance on racism would mean getting rid of the gunners which in turn would lead to accusations that "DU is not 2nd Amendment friendly".

[JustAnotherGen]

155. Wait - aj90 was there too?

I have that group on trash.

[heaven05]

118. there is a LOT

of downplaying racism in this forum from alleged progressives and liberals who have NEVER faced a day of fear because someone with a badge and gun is eyeballing you. This GD board especially. Always.

[JustAnotherGen]

157. Even right on this thread

Why - why won't they listen to black men? To black women?

Is there something really deep down inside that hey resent us?

Or is it the ingrained 'less than' coming to the service? The one where every image, bit of knowledge is absorbed - and one does things subconsciously?

[heaven05]

192. deep down, I think

just will not grasp the import of words of experience, because they know what's good for and happening to POC, ....

[bravenak]

244. I see it often

[stonecutter357]

39. K&R!

[heaven05]

47. why the dare?

everything you posted is true.....but people like to use that particular meme of economic justice, a RW meme by the way, as the only reason institutionalized and systemic racism is not being defeated in this country. Hats off to you..

[giftedgirl77]

55. Kick for still being right & hitting the nail right on the head.

Irregardless of what our experiences may be there will always be someone there to explain how we cannot possibly understand this concept better than them. Even if it is our daily life experiences.

[Glassunion]

56. One should not conflate championing economic injustice, as downplaying racial injustice.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Just keep that in mind. As a black man, I of course have had to struggle with both. I have had quite a bit of luck, and economically I am okay. However, I still have to deal with racism each and every day. It's not always out and out racism, but it's still something that I have to cope with personally, and as a nation we should absolutely address this.

Racism of course is not something that can be easily legislated away. Racism is a feeling and belief system. It would be like trying to legislate jealousy away. This is where it gets sticky. There are many laws however that do negatively effect minorities. These can be addressed. Personally IMO is that our leaders need to simply listen and not project their ideas of racism (beliefs) on the issues. I cannot tell you how sick and tired I am of folks who are not a minority schooling me on what is important to me. I know what is important to me. I have lived my entire life knowing where I am, and what our society has forced me to deal with.

Economic injustice on the other hand can be. It is tangible, and can be dealt with head on. Addressing income disparities are somewhat straight forward. The effects of which can have positive or negative impacts on minorities, women, elderly, or the GLTB communities. However, they are not always easy.

There is no one size fits all solution to either of these problems. They do overlap, yet are separate from one another. I say pick your candidate who listens to you. Not one who projects their ideas onto you. Vote with your heart and give them 100% of your support. One thing I do know, is that now matter who our candidate is after the primaries, that all of them stand the chance to make us better for having voted for them. We should not lose sight of that. Personally, I'm still undecided.

[qwlauren35]

69. Thanks for your post.

Poverty is a problem. Economic injustice is a problem. But I think they can be addressed with changes that have little to do with changing public opinion.

[Glassunion]

87. Agreed.

The toughest hill to climb will be racial injustice. That will require changes in belief systems.

[JustAnotherGen]

80. This was beautiful - thanks~

[heaven05]

104. great post

[Tree-Hugger]

143. ....

[BrotherIvan]

196. This^^^

We are talking about politics and legislating racism only goes so far. There is a cultural/historical aspect that cannot be dealt with so easily and certainly not by the federal government.

Yet I see so many applauding your post wherein you say the two are not mutually exclusive, just above argue that they are separate. I guess consistency is totally unimportant.

[TM99]

243. Just read your reply

after posting much the same thing.

I agree with you.

[Number23]

265. "They do overlap, yet are separate from one another."

Yes, I think that's what the OP and a whole slew of minority posters have been saying over and over and over and over again. Only to be ignored, criticized for being "Third Way"! and "taken to task" for their "privilege."

Well said.

[Jester Messiah]

57. On the other hand, it wouldn't have hurt. [nt]

[Mr Dixon]

66. bravo

agreed

[Dems to Win]

78. Sorry I posted in this thread, I will self-delete

Last edited Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:09 PM - Edit history (1)

[JustAnotherGen]

82. 75% of African Americans

Do not live in poverty.

It's a little of that Reagan stuff (welfare queen meme) to automatically tie black folks to poverty, welfare, tanf, snap, etc. etc.


I'm not saying YOU are doing that - - but Liberals and Progressives need to be very careful to not use the language of Reagan and that belief (every single one of us is poor and on welfare) as a tool to try to win over poor white people.

[1StrongBlackMan]

116. 1+ ...

I've noticed that too.

[giftedgirl77]

122. Yep, yep & yet these issues effect us regularly.

[giftedgirl77]

141. Oh what utter bullshit. The OP did no such thing, but if

that is all you have to refute our struggle then I guess you completely missed the point of the OP to begin with.

[giftedgirl77]

154. The OP said absolutely nothing about there not being poor

people. She brought up the percentages of POC being poor but it is very telling that you state you are about to give up on racial justice because POC choose to voice their POV when it comes to the economic/social justice issue.

Do you expect us to just sit back & let the status quo ensure even though we know it will not help us in the long run?

[JustAnotherGen]

163. No it didn't -

The OP said no such thing. She pointed out that 75% of African americans do not live in poverty.

Stop - think - why is it all African Americans have shared experiences - regardless of our economic standing?

GiftedGirls elementary school aged little boy in THIS century - in the northeast -

Had the same experience I had in the north east in 1978.


As well - black folks don't isolate ourselves in our economic position -

Our families - we DO pull together. We have some who do better than others. There is a post in the AA group (two) about how the Welfare system blocks black Americans.

We have to pull together as families because even though we get BLAMED for all the welfare - we don't GET it.

And the poorest black woman in Mississippi knows what I know. We have experienced the same America.

You don't have to like it.

You can turn your back on us as you have stated you will below.

I won't be held hostage by white liberals who get all up in their feelings.

[JustAnotherGen]

85. The Koch Brothers Gave $25 Million to the United Negro College Fund Last Year

qw - putting that here - because they DO believe they can win us over.

If they address - racial injustice (as Rand Paul is manipulating with and I believe Charles Koch is touching on the Criminal Justice system) -

They get into the Wealthy, Rich, Affluent, and Middle Class Black American mind at 17/18/19.

And for those 'scholarship students' at a HBCU - they get them to too.


That's the 75%.

[heaven05]

114. an important "tool"

for the truth. Loved that OP.

[1StrongBlackMan]

119. Please ...

so who does it benefit when YOU take the opposite side of that "wedge BS"?

[giftedgirl77]

120. Way to completely miss the point of the OP.

For POC that deal with this on the daily, it is spot on.

[WDIM]

113. Minorities are not the only people being killed by police.

I have seen videos of all races of people being killed and brutalized by police for "non-compliance".

The one that sticks in my mind most is the white autistic man that was thrown to the ground and got a busted skull that killed him. All because he pointed his finger at the cop.

The police use of force is out of control. Not only is there racial profiling, but there is economic profiling as well. I guarantee if you are white and poor and walking around the store they are as suspicious of you as they are of a poor minority.

What I see is a complete war on poor america especially by the police. Poor people are more likely to have their rights violated, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be pulled over and more likely to be killed by police than any other economic class.

Even DEA agents have come out admitting they were told to focus on poor communities and inner city communities and to stay out of the high class well to do communities.

Economic injustice has everything to do with racial injust and any other injustice that we have issues with in this country.

Economic equality and education are the keys to bringing about equality for all people.

[1StrongBlackMan]

121. Tell me ... How does economic injustice affect MY expressing racial injustices? ...

I'm of the class that economic injustice barely affects me.

[WDIM]

125. Show me an example of racial injustice in the upper class

I havent seen any wealthy unarmed minorities being shot by police.

But poor white poor black poor hispanics poor asians without a doubt poverty is a key to the discrimination.

I doubt Oprah has any discrimination. If she did she wouldnt be quiet about it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

128. Funny you mention Oprah ...

Do you recall Oprah's incident in Switzerland? http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/10/entertainment/la-et-mg-oprah-winfrey-racism-handbag-switzerland-20130809

What about her not being offered the Country Club membership that came with the house she purchased (a Country Club with no Black members)?

I know ... I know ... that doesn't compare to being shot in the street; but if you read this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Rage-Privileged-Class-Middle-Class/dp/0060925949, you might get a clue as how your economic primacy argument fails.

[WDIM]

134. And a homeless white woman would have worse treatment.

Switzerland isnt a part of this country but you do make a point about europe their racial discrimination seems to be growing.

I bet that country club would also deny membership to a white woman living on welfare and nobody would even call it discrimination. Economic discrimination doesnt even register with people we just ignore it. We turn our heads to the homeless on the street and act like if we dont see them they are not there.

Racial discrimination is still an issue but economic discrimination compounds the issue and makes it worse.

Economic equality is a pathway to equality for all.

[1StrongBlackMan]

138. Okayyyyy ...

And a homeless white woman would have worse treatment.

How would the shop keeper know that a patron is homeless?

I bet that country club would also deny membership to a white woman living on welfare and nobody would even call it discrimination.

Oprah is not on welfare.

Racial discrimination is still an issue but economic discrimination compounds the issue and makes it worse.

Agreed. But removing the economic discrimination ... that many of DO NOT experience ... and we are STILL left with racial discrimination. No?

Economic equality is a pathway to equality for all straight, white, able-bodied, Christian males. For all outside of that cohort ... not so much .

There ... fixed that for you.

[WDIM]

142. Equality is equality and racial equality has to have economic equality.

How could it be equality if it only helps abled bodied white men?

Even Martin Luther King saw the importance of fighting for economic equality and the impact it would have on racial equality.

[1StrongBlackMan]

153. Please don't exhibit your mis-understanding of Dr. MLK to me. Thank you. ...

Equality is equality and racial equality has to have economic equality.

BUT ECONOMIC EQUALITY DOES NOT HAVE TO INCLUDE RACIAL EQUALITY. Trying to get my fellow liberals to understand that is the entire point of my participation in these threads.

[Rex]

158. I still do not see what they see - how do you get economic justice without basic civil rights first?

[WDIM]

165. How do you have basic civil rights without economic justice?

Isnt a living wage a basic civil right? To make it possible for people to have the basic necessities like housing food clean water amd clothing.

Its all economics when people cant afford to live what good are their basic civil rights? And isnt life the most basic of civil rights?

[Rex]

166. No sadly a living wage is not a basic civil right, otherwise we would have one right?

No a basic civil right is expecting to be treated like a human being, if that includes a great place to live or a shitty one can also depend on the environment a person lives in.

So you expect the owner of a company to give their employees a living wage, when there is no call to treat them as humans with needs? Goodluck with that, let me know how that works out for ya.

[WDIM]

171. Living wage is a civil right

And is part of being treated like a human being that has value and needs.

[Rex]

173. Show me which amendment deals with a living wage and I might agree with you.

Until we actually deal with civil rights for minorities and women, economic justice is just a pipe dream for them.

[WDIM]

178. Well that is your first problem Rights do not come from amendments.

The consitution does not give us our rights.
Civil rights exist without the bill of rights and without the constitution.
Read the ninth amendment. The enumeration of rights in the bill of rights is not meant deprive or disparage the rights that are not listed. To paraphrase.

[Rex]

180. Nonsense, if there was no bill of rights we would have none in this country!

Rights are granted to us by the laws written by this country, surely you know this.

[WDIM]

187. Rights are natural and exist above the laws.

Its the people that must demand their rights. The constitution gives us a court system that can address the violation of our right but rights are universal and exist even in the absence of law.

Even with no law against murder there is still a basic right to life.

Most Governments use laws to violate the peoples rights.

[TheKentuckian]

359. There used to not be any amendments. Amendments enumerate rights not create them.

I also think your heart overrides your thinking here, much of social justice is not directly achievable through the political process, more than people want to admit is subjective judgments that allows a majority group - think to resist and pervert civic equality while placing on the back burner the means and opportunity to push forward and fight back.

In many cases justice like everything else takes resources resources unavailable when way too many are just treading water and many that manage to swim doing what they can to keep others from going under.

Being on the margins and crossing the lines to hustle putting one in a far greater chance of getting caught up into an adversarial system by structure and a hostile one to the disadvantaged and excluded by malicious design to enslave, dehumanize, extract, and break minds, hopes, faith, families, and spirits counts big to me.

Inability to escape the system's gravity well of fines, interruption of work, transportation fiascos, being on the radar, and loss of opportunity being branded a criminal or especially a felon mean something too.

Living in an area that is targeted for extraction and and grinding under the heel greatly magnifies the opportunity for police interactions and for them to dangerously hostile.

Who does it profit to pretend the vast majority of black folks catching beatings and bullets or in jail are not the poorest, the working poor, and the barely hanging on working class?

Yes, money and class always matters and no we don't ever get full benefit of class status but to reduce that benefit to insignificant is crassly dishonest.

There is no buying parity with whites all else being equal but that still leaves one a far cry certainly than another person of color all else being equal and many or even most whites too.

[bettyellen]

194. What good are basic civil rights?- says the guy that's got his. WOW

[Rex]

198. I give up. nt

nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

167. One can't ...

but those born into those civil rights, don't seem to get.

[Rex]

169. It is strange imo.

I've been a white privileged male for 44 years and I see it as clear as day. I know for a fact that if I get pulled over in this small town by a cop, I will not end up going to jail. I know this, it is a privilege that has been afforded to me just because of who I am in this small town and the color of my skin. Not sure in which order, but I know this from first hand experience.

I can drive around this town with an expired sticker on my car, the MOST I will get is a warning...

[WDIM]

174. But if you were poor you'd go to jail.

Infact if you were poor you couldn't even afford a car or the tag to go on it and instead youd just be harrassed by police because you are poor and walking down the street.

How many homeless people are in your small town? I bet they get ran out by the police. Ive lived in small towns and ive seen first hand the discrimination of being poor.

[Rex]

176. So I am rich? Just because you need me to be to fit your narrative?

How assuming of you. I am far from rich and barely middle class. NO homeless people do not get run out of this town, they get help from one of the 12 churches in the area.

Even the poorest person in this town can buy a used car and get around or get around on bike (not a big town at all). The CoP here would be one of the FIRST persons to assist in helping a homeless person - you have no idea.

[WDIM]

182. I didnt say rich

But not poor not homeless not destitute.

Im glad your town is so compassionate! Isnt it also equally compassionate to minorities? Are you saying they would not assist minorities or would arrest minorities for having an expired tag and not just give them a warning like they would for you?

[WDIM]

160. To have true equality it does have to include racial equality.

And since we have never had either in the history of civilization your statement really cannot be proven. But by simple reason and definition of equality we would need both racial and economic equality to have equality truly exist.

[1StrongBlackMan]

161. Okay. n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

150. A white woman on welfare

Can't afford a country club membership.

[Rex]

156. How do you obtain economic equality, without having basic civil rights first?

Civil rights for one and all is the pathway to an egalitarian society.

[giftedgirl77]

123. Minorities are being killed in a disproportionate number...

Especially young black males, that means my teenage son's are at a much higher risk of being murdered by the police simply because of the color of their skin. We are not by any means considered poor, but just based on them being brown puts them at a substantial risk every time they leave the house.

[WDIM]

127. If they were poor too that risk would be even greater.

Living in poverty basically means you have no rights in this country.

Racial profiling is definately a major issue but economic profiling is just as bad and being poor and a minority what chance do you have?

Racial discrimination is at the lowest ive seen in my life time but economic discrimination is at an all time high and it is an issue that nobody wants to talk about.

Lifting all people out of poverty and providing education to broadens peoples perspective will do more for racial injustice than anything else.

[gollygee]

133. Racial discrimination is the lowest you've seen in your lifetime?

Is it just my area where it seems a lot worse? I think things have gotten worse over the last 10 or so years.

So, you can't actually lift everyone out of poverty without dealing with racial injustice. Racial injustice creates poverty for a lot of people. Until you get rid of the racial injustice, those people will remain poor. And even people of color who aren't poor are kept below their earning potential, in whatever work they do, because of racism. There can be no real economic justice without racial justice. I absolutely agree with the fight for economic justice, but we can't ignore racial injustice while we do that work, or think that racial injustice will just go away with economic justice. It won't. Both have to be focused on.

[WDIM]

136. I agree they are symbiotic.

We need both simultaneously. We cant have one without the other you are correct. We cant have racial just without economic justice and we cant have economic justic without racial justice and indeed they go hand in hand. Therefore, should we even make a distinction between the two? Equality is equality be it racial or economic. We should be fighting for equality.

[gollygee]

139. Unfortunately

History shows that if we don't specifically pay attention to racial injustice, it gets ignored.

[WDIM]

145. and Economic injustice is ignored completely by most.

The War on Poverty died in the 60s. The fight to end racial discrimination is still on going. The fight to end economic discrimination is completely ignored and not even given lip service by most.

[gollygee]

146. Not here on DU

We have tons of threads about economic injustice, but anytime anyone talks about racial injustice, they're told it's a wedge issue and they're helping the 1%. Racial injustice is what gets ignored, and in fact we appear to be told to ignore it so as not to "help the 1%."

[jtuck004]

349. That's because those who are being hurt are being used, and talk about economic equality would

expose that. Now that they have brains, they don't need chains.

It's too profitable like it is to shake up the plantation.

[gollygee]

351. The 1% is not talking about racism at all

so they certainly aren't talking about it to break up Democrats. That's a ridiculous idea, so ridiculous that it comes off as an attempt to silence discussion of racism.

[jtuck004]

352. Most white folk aren't talking about it at all, whether 1% or the rest. If it was just 1%, only

4 million would be the problem and it would be easy.

Then everyone could look in the mirror and blame someone else, instead of who they see.

That poster is dead on.

[JustAnotherGen]

147. hmmm - not sure

When you are a black man in a mostly white environment/area - one of affluence - you are going to stand out.

I.E. You are an easier target.

The Trayvon Murder case -down in Sanford FL?

He was an easy target and easily dismissed because black folks - as I understood it a few years ago - were not dominant in that 'gated' community.

[heaven05]

197. +1000

nuff said

[uponit7771]

249. +1

[heaven05]

201. that third and fourth paragraph???????

geez You must live in a very remote area.

[1StrongBlackMan]

204. Serious Question ...

Are you an African-American or Hispanic (of African descent)?

[heaven05]

209. you just really

don't want to accept the FACT that racial inequality and racism is far more of a problem in this country for POC than economic inequality because one causes the other, not the other way around. OKAY, let me break it down for you, a well off white person does not get followed around a store by the SD, period. A middle class white person does not get followed around a discount store, a black person, no matter their economic station or store shopped in, will. A white person does NOT get followed around the store. Economic equality means 0-zero. There would still be racial hate and inequality in this culture. Period. Your absolutist last line is mind boggling to say the least.

[WDIM]

255. Ive worked store security

Upper and middle class white women shoplift the most.

I never watched a person because of their race.

My colleagues were very discriminatory towards "white trash".

I myself have been followed at stores and usually because I dress like a "bum".

We cannot deny that there is discrimination against poor people of all color. Eradicating poverty would do more for people of all colors than we can even comprehend.

[heaven05]

358. if you say so

really obvious.......

[uponit7771]

248. Males of Color are 21 times more likely to be shot by police even though whites have more guns per

... capita.

That's the issue here

The police doing the killing could care less the economic background of the Male POC who's being killed

[ismnotwasm]

131. I don't post about this much

But I've been poor. And I mean single parent female on welfare living in housing projects surviving on food banks poor. I've been homeless. I've been hungry. I've had abcessed teeth with no dental insurance. Hell, I even was shoeless for a period of time.

And on my worst day, I never had to consider the color of my skin. I'm white.

Recovering from all that, you'd look at me today and never know. I have a degree. My kids are doing ok--they cut up a bit as teenagers but it never occurred to me to worry if they were going to be killed by police because of the color of their skin. I fit in larger society... (well, white entitled middle-class people get on my nerves, but my experience isn't their business)

I fit in as smooth as silk when I want to. I don't always want to, but I have the option. I'm white. Doors open, police are polite, I don't get followed around in stores. Just for starters.

[qwlauren35]

140. It is very brave of you to share this.

You have my deepest respect for what you have done with your life. I'm sure it wasn't easy.

[ismnotwasm]

202. ...

[giftedgirl77]

162. Thank you for posting this....

Maybe some will see the difference in what you posted & others from minority groups are trying to explain.

[ismnotwasm]

203. I hope so

[heaven05]

195. you got my respect

cause I know it was a struggle. I luv people with heart, integrity and principle.

[ismnotwasm]

205. Thank you kindly

[Orsino]

135. Baloney.

An economically just world would be so fundamentally different from our own that we can't honestly make the statements found in the OP.

[giftedgirl77]

137. You may not be able to, but we POC can which is why the OP

was posted. In hopes of making some that constantly think economic justice will fix everything is wrong on so many levels. But per the usual stance on DU our rational & personal experience's are dismissed as nonsense.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. Echoing giftedgirl

I don't have that luxury.

Certainly in regards to my nephews - I really don't have that luxury.

[HornBuckler]

170. Excellent point.

You can't really paint scenarios as described above as being driven only by racial injustice. If we had true economic justice then we could use said scenarios and draw conclusions. However, as you mention, that world doesn't exist so the best we can do is speculate. The OP does speculation with great confidence.

[Orsino]

190. Yeah. Rather than tweaking these situations, economic justice would likely have prevented them...

...or replaced them with completely different scenarios.

JFK would have survived Dallas if gravity were reversed, or something.

[heaven05]

193. easy statement(s)

to make if one understands and experiences what OP is referring to. EASY. The statements are referring to race that even in an "economically just world" would STILL be a reality and happening every day. That's the demon of racial hate. Money don't make it better. Period.

[1StrongBlackMan]

211. But we will never know, as an "economically just" world is so ill-defined ...

but what we DO know, is economic justice (i.e., economic equality) does not bring social justice.

[uponit7771]

250. Sigh, there are rich POC who are treated no different than Trayvon or Brown or Garner ...

... it's about skin color with some LEOs and not about how much money the person makes

[JustAnotherGen]

271. Thank you

It's about my dad in his Cadillac a few months before he died getting pulled over by a Monroe County Sheriff little pup pulling into the entrance of the development he lived in for 33 years.

The Vietnam Veterans bumper sticker didn't prevent it.
His time on the school board didn't prevent it.
His involvement in county politics didn't prevent it.
Being a deacon in his church didn't prevent it.
Having held executive positions (VP level) in large companies didn't prevent it.


The oxygen tank didn't prevent it.

The few million dollars my mom is sitting on (thank god - she will probably live another 30 years based on family history) didn't prevent it.

Nothing stops a hate filled bigot.

If anything - it eggs them on.

Case in point? President Obama.

[Act_of_Reparation]

172. But what if we define economic justice more broadly than simple income equality?

What if we also include in this definition a reevaluation of our attitudes toward poverty?

I could be speaking from ignorance here -- I'm not black, and can only base this upon what I, personally, have heard other white people say -- but I get the impression that white Americans associate poverty with moral failure and Black Americans with poverty. The inevitable result is they associate Black Americans with criminality, and automatically assume the worst of them even if they appear ostensibly well-off. A change in how white Americans view poverty may result in a better attitude towards Black Americans.

Still, I am largely in agreement. We're talking about racial and economic attitudes shaped over the course of hundreds of years. There are a lot of factors, and correcting just one of them will probably not prove a miraculous panacea.

[JustAnotherGen]

272. You make a good point here - but try this . . .

Philadelphia Mississippi - 1976

Reagan gives his welfare queen speech.

He runs with that.

18 years later - the Republicans ride a wave into the Federal government on this meme with their Contract on America (certain ones - I was one - based on gender and color of skin).

Pat Buchanan admitted it - he's one of the few that has.

Am I supposed to forget that? Wasn't on what is now called TANF and SNAP, paying full tuition (still waiting for that free ride I supposedly got at Niagara), had perfect score on ACT and 1380 and SAT (earned my admission), no children as a teenager, etc etc.

It didn't prevent me from being demonized as the root of all evil in America.

White Americans need to let go of their assumptions based on race.

I've worked too hard and I give back to much to my community - and pay too much in Federal and State taxes (our Fed tab is higher than the median income in NJ) - too have to ask white folks for permission to be black.

[Act_of_Reparation]

366. Oh, I agree with that completely.

Coding implicit racism into political speech was the key to the Southern Strategy. That definitely goes to show that racism, to at least a significant portion of the white electorate, transcends wealth and economics.

[JustAnotherGen]

367. I'd agree!

There's a story on DU - making even my local NJ 12 station this morning - about a pool fight melee in a chi chi poo poo community down in Texas.

The comments made by one of the aggressors was "Go back to Section 8 housing".

The assumption of black people living in Section 8 is out there. Nothing - no amount of money on the planet could have prevented those kids - both residents and invited with a pool pass - from being treated that way by that monstrous woman(woman about my age punched a 19 year old resident while using racial epithets).

[Act_of_Reparation]

368. And if we take a look on the opposite side of that coin...

... there are the Jews. While Black Americans are automatically associated with poverty, the Jews are automatically associated with wealth, and I would argue this hasn't helped them one iota. Virtually every utterance of anti-Semitic language is hinged upon the topic of money, typically the nefarious ways by which that money must have been obtained, and what vile plans that money will be used to hatch.

If tomorrow all Black Americans drove Bentleys and owned multimillion dollar estates, white racists would not suddenly warm up to the erstwhile objects of their hatred. I'm pretty sure they would simply invent new fictions to justify their prejudices.

[JustAnotherGen]

369. Amen!!!!

[grahamhgreen]

175. But it does help you to hire a lawyer and bring people to justice.

[bettyellen]

200. I hope you're being sarcastic?

[randys1]

179. Best post of the year? I think so

[heaven05]

199. damn good!!!!

[Enthusiast]

206. You wish to divide us? Okay, go with that then. See if that furthers your cause.

What is your cause? I have seen and participated in thread after thread on DU on racial injustice.

[qwlauren35]

212. Not everybody does.

Are you suggesting that you represent the majority in DU?

[Tarheel_Dem]

207. Thank you so much for taking "the dare". Getting them to understand that the two are not the same..

will be a heavy lift if DU is any indication, but I applaud you for speaking to this issue.

[BrotherIvan]

208. How about those of us who are fighting for both?

Why is there such a division created on DU? I don't see it anywhere in real life, and maybe that's because my neighborhood is lower middle class black and brown people who DO want jobs and financial security and a safe place for their children to go to school. It's not a "priority" for you so it is not important to anyone? Because it is for many and effects children the most.

Among racial and ethnic groups, African Americans had the highest poverty rate, 27.4 percent, followed by Hispanics at 26.6 percent and whites at 9.9 percent. 45.8 percent of young black children (under age 6) live in poverty, compared to 14.5 percent of white children.

This is absolutely 100% unacceptable. Saying those children are not as poor as those in Africa is one of the cruelest statements I can think of. They are suffering too. There is no denying that economic oppression is a tool of racism. The problem of racism is multi faceted and must be addressed from ALL angles. I think a black person dying from lack of health care or food or housing is, in fact, more urgent than Oprah being followed in a store. Sorry, I do. And I can't believe that DU has chosen this line of reasoning. It makes this place look very uncaring and myopic.

Here is a more balanced line of reasoning that says it better than I can. I am not familiar with this particular writer.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2014/01/_5_important_black_issues_for_2014.1.html

The 2014 Black Agenda: 5 Things to Focus On

Reducing Violence in Black Communities Nationwide

Chicago’s violence-plagued communities have received the most national attention, in part because of President Barack Obama’s ties to the Windy City, but also due to its prolific number of murders. The latest victim was a 17-year-old pregnant teenager who died of a gunshot wound to the head. The miracle of this tragedy is that her baby survived. Local activists have done heroic work to stave off increased gun violence, efforts that have drawn the participation of national civil rights leaders such as Al Sharpton. Unfortunately, this has not been enough to stanch the bleeding. Obama must prioritize the issue of violence in Chicago and other predominately black, brown and poor communities, as the national crisis that it is.

Public School Should Help Black Children Fulfill the American Dream

The achievement gap between black and white students in America continues to grow. Too many black children attend overcrowded and underfunded public schools that are racially and economically segregated from mainstream America. Instead of learning to become critical thinkers and tomorrow’s leaders, our children are suspended from school at higher rates than their white counterparts, and introduced to the criminal justice system in elementary school. To be young, black and poor in America is to be confined to some of the nation’s most dangerous, violence-ridden and vulnerable spaces. 2014 marks the 60th anniversary of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education desegregation case. What instantly became a symbol of racial progress is slowly devolving into one of national shame.

Mass Incarceration of Nonviolent Drug Offenders Must End

Deteriorating public schools have become a feeder system into the nation’s prison-industrial complex. The drug wars of the ’80s turned poor black neighborhoods, including public schools, into incubators of racial injustice and oppression. The social, political and economic stigma attached to felony drug convictions has been defined by legal scholar Michelle Alexander as The New Jim Crow, a new caste system that contains striking parallels with the separate and unequal regimes of racial injustice constructed in slavery’s aftermath. Mass incarceration is the civil rights issue of the 21st century, and the black community should utilize this year, which is the 50th anniversary of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, to push to end a system that discredits our democracy.

Renewing the American Dream for African Americans Requires a Bold Jobs Program, Especially in Inner Cities

Problems of violence, education and mass incarceration are intimately linked to black America’s jobs crisis. The unemployment rate for blacks is double that of whites, but in many poor communities the disparities are even more staggering. Chronic unemployment and underemployment fractures families and neighborhoods and chokes off hope. Now is the time for civil rights activists, community leaders, elected officials and, yes, President Obama to focus on a national and targeted jobs program. Obama can start by issuing an executive order to raise the minimum wage for employees doing work related to federal projects.

ETA: I think the violence that needs to be addressed in the first point is actually police violence first and foremost. I disagree with the phrasing by the author. But this was written in Jan. 2014

[qwlauren35]

210. Working for both is great.

And some people do. But some people don't and some people focus on one and suggest that it will take care of the other.

I do not agree.

Does this divide DU? I don't think so. I can only shine a flashlight on what exists.

[BrotherIvan]

213. I have never expected anyone to fight for my rights

If we have a crossover and can become allies, great, let's do it. If they are willing to fight with me because it is morally, right, then all respect to them is due. But this must be the tenth thread where I have seen the idea that those who are fighting for economic justice are somehow ignoring racism. It's just not true. On any level. Everyone has the right to fight for their own justice. I cannot tell them my problems are more important than theirs. They just need to allow me to fight for mine and you to fight for yours.

In fact, I have NEVER heard anyone on DU parrot the Republican meme that poor people of color aren't as poor as in third world countries, so they're not that bad off. No one would have the guts to do it. But here it is. The privilege in your post is stunning. You discount the fact that almost a third of the black community and almost half of young black children are living in poverty--a line which we know is actually in the wrong place and that many people are living in dire circumstances who are considered above it. You didn't even address it in your answer to me. I can't believe anyone wouldn't be taken aback by that number. But fuck em, let's worry about millionaires and billionaires instead.

I am not poor, nor am I struggling financially. I was blessed with the same education as President Clinton's daughter. But I have worked in economically challenged communities and I could no more turn my back on them than walk over a child dying in the street. That is exactly WHY I am a liberal.

[heaven05]

246. gw has a great OP

and that which you take umbrage with is confusing. BUT you're entitled to take offense at one point of the OP and forget that OP is about class problems vs race problems. We HAVE ALL had to fight for each others civil and human rights. I have not stood up to the PTB when I did, I did not get 12 stitches in my head from a goddamn nightstick during an Agnew event for just me, but for you and many others in this screwed up culture. "You fight for yours, I'll fight for mine"......that I feel is part of the problem, sorry to say.

[BrotherIvan]

251. If the OP wanted to make her point without the swipe at lower class people of color

I would agree to the main thrust of it. Racism is a dire problem, but some of that mentioned is institutional that can be fixed and some of it is cultural, which cannot. Economic oppression, police oppression, housing & jobs discrimination, all of those are something that can be legislated by government. But the government cannot stop people from being racist, they can only stop them from legally acting out their racism.

I would like to know exactly how anyone could legislate against the murder of Trayvon Martin by racist George Zimmerman, the murder of Cosby's son by a carjacker, or Oprah getting the side eye in a boutique? Cops racial profiling & murdering, yes, that is possible and we should all be writing our reps and our president to demand that it stop now. Obama being disrespected by racist teabaggers and fox news, no. So what exactly is being advocated here as the solution?

My point about the OP is this:

1) Saying that poor & working class whites fighting for their jobs or food on their table is somehow against black people is incorrect & illogical.

2) Ignoring the situation for those who are less fortunate because it doesn't effect you personally, but then constantly lecturing everyone else that they have to make that which doesn't effect them personally their #1 issue is embarrassingly hypocritical.

3) Using Republican framing against poor black folk as not as poor as Africans? That is the kind of casually cruel statement that gets applauded on DU??

So if you think using Republican arguments to get the OPs point across is ok, I guess you don't understand why I object. But for some reason, nobody will admit that almost HALF of black children growing up in poverty is a problem of epic proportions. The OP reeks of privilege and a FUIGM attitude.

[JustAnotherGen]

276. I didn't see ignoring the situation for the less fortunate by op

Stand back from it - because you are absolutely correct -


We cannot legislate away racial prejudice. If that had happened in the 1960's - we wouldn't be having this discussion today. I mean - we have a lot of well meaning folks who like to quote MLK and speak down to us. They try to gaslight us into believing he wasn't an angry black man with his letter from a Birmingham jail - and he just wanted economic justice for all . . . It wasn't about race, lynching, people paying taxes and getting nothing etc etc

If I lift every black and Hispanic little boy out of poverty on Monday morning - if I give him access to the best neighborhoods - he's still going to be in a racist hell. That Latino/Hispanic little boy - heck 15 years old - with his same ethnic background friend would be sat down on the edge of route 31 by a State Policeman dressed to go to war with a gun pointed at him - because they were looking for two in that demographic - albeit in their late teens early 20's. This happened in my borough of 4500 last month.

Thank God one of the men on our little Barney Fife squad saw that - stepped in - and got those two home. See -- our little force of 9 know "us". They understand our diversity - though the majority is still white. We have a heroin problem in our high school - and they know OUR children because they are visible there.

The two boys come from affluent families. Were it not for a good and hooked into his community police officer stepping in and one of those two had been defiant - god forbid if one of Our Children been shot. That Police Officer - white in his late 20's - is the exact opposite of Wilson. He protected two children in our community.


I'd like to make our little Fife squad the gold standard in America.

In the poorest black communities, the working class white community, etc etc.

Racial justice - saying "America you are sick and cruel to us" - is imperative at a time when the racial demographic is changing rapidly. And the cruelty is based on skin color . .

I've posted enough about my "stop gap" efforts regarding hunger. Unfortunately we have ass wipes in Washington who think are poor aren't poor enough and shouldn't own a refrigerator - let alone a microwave. No American should ever go to bed hungry - black child or elderly white woman. It's unconsciable and cruel and we are better than that.

But that elderly woman will starve to death without community intervention - that black child can get shot and killed at a playground and have people make excuses for the cop that did it.


Both are sick. I can send everyone to bed with a full belly. I can't prevent the death of a black child based on the color of his skin.

I need white folks to change internally for that to happen.

And that hasn't happened - much as even Republicans worship at the altar of MLK - too many want to pretend he was NOT an angry black man these days - for that to happen.

I intend to be defiant towards that silly belief.

[heaven05]

357. sorry

I just don't get all that out of the OP.

[Number23]

223. "Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice."

DAMN!!!!!!! You really went there, didn't you?

K&R

[WillyT]

238. Thoughts On THIS ???

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026755009

[giftedgirl77]

254. That it's clear you totally ignored her last paragraph which addresses

economic issues.

Everybody wants to have enough money to be comfortable at the very least. I get that. And I'm willing to push for a higher minimum wage, and pay equity. Those are clearly issues that people of different races can agree on, depending on their political views. But it is laughable and educational that on a website for liberal Democrats there are people who downplay racial injustice. Especially educational. It is no wonder the Republican party thinks that they can win us over. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.

Maybe you could focus on the entire OP instead of just the parts you don't agree with?

[Recursion]

267. OP responded to that pretty well in the OP

I don't need to speak for him/her (her I think?), but i'd ask you to read it again if you didn'the see the argument that the two can be and in fact always are separate for POCs.

[lovemydog]

270. Willy T, I think you misstated the original post here.

Please read the entire post again. And the other posts in this thread.

[Bluenorthwest]

283. You posted that 4 times but you don't seem to even bother to read the OP you respond to. What does

that say about your attitudes toward this subject matter, one you regularly insist you want to discuss honestly? Why don't you actually discuss these things?

Here's what I think. I think you and some other straight white folk of good will want to believe that if you can pay minority people off, you will never have to deal with racism and homophobia and misogyny as free standing subjects. This is simply not the case. Make everyone rich, the straight white rich people still treat the minority rich people differently as not as well.
At the highest levels of business in rooms where everybody present is very well off compared to the larger world, minority people will still find less options and opportunities than their straight white male counterparts. It's very cutesy to rant that those with plenty should not complain about inequality, but what happens when the Oscars come out? Gee, people say 'where are the minority nominees'? Where indeed.
If the minority directors of films do not have as many option because the executives are all straight white men, then the films that get made are going to trend white. And that means that the writers, actors and eventual nominees in the films made will not please the public because they will be all white, like those in charge are all white.
So the reasons the Oscars are 'too white' have to do with discriminatory treatment of very well off persons, has to do with who gets to be in charge and who remains second fiddle. Has to do with a millionaire not getting the same treatment as another millionaire.

When it suits their agenda, the 'social issues don't matter' crowd certainly do not hesitate to exploit social issues. Here's your thread about the Oscars..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026091089

Social issues don't matter. But the Oscars matter? And the Oscars are 'too white' but that's not a 'social issue'? And the reason the Oscars are 'too white' is not that high earning executives and producers who are minority members do not get the same powers and options as their white counterparts?

Just trying to figure out what your actual position is.

[sheshe2]

239. Well done.

Brava.

[Cha]

242. Excellent OP, qwlauren.. thank you for posting!

"Everybody wants to have enough money to be comfortable at the very least. I get that. And I'm willing to push for a higher minimum wage, and pay equity. Those are clearly issues that people of different races can agree on, depending on their political views. But it is laughable and educational that on a website for liberal Democrats there are people who downplay racial injustice. Especially educational. It is no wonder the Republican party thinks that they can win us over. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice."

[bravenak]

245. Great op

[RichVRichV]

264. Neither side is wrong in this debate.

Everyone is just too thick headed to listen to each other.


Many social issues are directly linked to economic issues. Without fixing economic issues, the social issues can never be truly corrected. These issues aren't racial specific, but are class specific. They primarily effect minorities (of all types) who have the highest class restrictions. An example of this includes targeting poor communities (which are often minority) for excessive fines, and then jailing people who can't pay the fines. Which reduces the voting pool and limits the communities ability to control their local government (Ferguson is a perfect example of this).


On the flip side, many social issues are not linked to economic issues, and no amount of economic balance will fully correct them. They must be dealt with directly as social issues. To ignore them is doing everyone a disservice. This includes racial prejudice and profiling by police as the most prevalent example. To fully fix this will require a systemic purge of racist and corrupt police across the country. While some of this can be fixed by allowing communities to elect better city councils and police commissioners (which is economic, see above), ultimately it will require busting through the blue wall of silence to truly correct it (which is not economic in nature).


The world is full of shades of grey, where there is no single correct answer. This just happens to be one of those instances. I believe in an all of the above approach. Tackle both social and economic injustices and we'll make the world a much better place. We can't afford to ignore either issue. And both are vitally important.

[stevenleser]

279. Yes, one "side" is definitely wrong.

The OP and those who agree with them, take(s) into account both issues, social justice and economic justice. They argue that sometimes they are not completely intertwined and use examples to show that. Wealthy black people, or black people from wealthy families, like Cosby's son, and Trayvon are still discriminated against and even shot dead in alarming numbers because of their skin.

The other side dismisses the issue of social justice and says all we need to do is take into account and fix economic justice and that will magically fix everything else. No it won't.

[RichVRichV]

347. Are you being obtuse?

Not only does the OP negate the effects of economic injustice, they specifically equate economic justice simply "to be comfortable". That's not taken out of context. It's all up there plainly written for everyone to see, with multiple examples citing why economic justice plays no role in social justice.


Most people in this debate are being dismissive of other points of views, regardless of view point. The simple fact is to have a just society we must have both economic and social justice. It's not an either/or thing. We either fight for all of the above or we'll never solve the issues facing this country.

[Recursion]

266. This turned out to be a very important thread

Thanks for posting it.

[lovemydog]

268. K & R

I understand what you are saying. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

[KingCharlemagne]

274. Bernie Sanders was a SNCC organizer back when SNCC organizers were being

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 08:56 AM - Edit history (1)

assassinated by southern white racists. (This was back when Hillary was a 'Goldwater Girl,' I might add.) So WTF are you talking about when you claim that "Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice'? What a steaming pile of ahistorical SHIT!

We seriously need an UNREC button for offal like this OP.

[stevenleser]

280. OP didn't mention any candidate first of all. Second, Joe Lieberman marched with MLK

that didn't give him a pass on examining any part of his record or policy proposals.

[KingCharlemagne]

281. Righteo. The corner that attacks women who've lost children has now

been heard from.

GTFO.

[stevenleser]

282. That's some sort of code I am supposed to understand?

Your attempts to derail this OP first by making it about individual candidates that were never mentioned, then using some weird code-words is duly noted. You obviously have no respect for the OP or their well thought out opinions.

[KingCharlemagne]

284. You wrote it. You own it. IMO, the Admins should have banned you

permanently from this site for it. Even if they didn't, it ranks as one of the most despicable posts I have seen here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026782652#post89

(Laughing at someone who lost a child. That takes the fucking cake.)

As I said, GTFO. Or alert on me. Whatevs.

[stevenleser]

285. Ah, at least I know what you are talking about now. Except that's not what happened at all

First of all derailing this OP to settle a vendetta with me is complete disrespect for the OP and trollish behavior. That's what should be the bannable behavior.

What that other person described it not what happened at all, and you would know that if you had participated in that thread in real time. The sequence was:

1. Poster posted an angry post and got it hidden
2. I posted a post saying I have no idea why she is so angry but whatever is going on I hope she gets help or words to that effect
3. She sent me a nastygram where among a list of insults told me what was going on in her situation
4. I wrote her back saying my concern was genuine.

There are time stamps that confirm this version of events

I await your apology

Furthermore, the poster in question has had similar problems with other posters for years, as many in that discussion thread noted. Using the death of a child to deflect criticism doesn't explain her similar behavior for years.

[KingCharlemagne]

286. We all know how you work. You try to bait people into doing or saying something

to get a hide. (See the thread in question.) If you honestly think my behavior here is so trollish, why, alert on it. Come on, you know you want to. I hope Polly7 shows up on the jury. But even if she doesn't, you'll still have to live with your comment.

I'm not really interested in reading any post-hoc defense you now craft, since you were called on it at the time and responded with . . . . crickets.

Either alert on me or GTFO.

[stevenleser]

289. If that's true, complain to admins. But they have already said no one has done that

So lets sum up:

1. You make an accusation about me about another thread that isn't true and confirmably so.

2. You make an accusation about alert baiting which the admins have already said multiple times that no one is doing.

Do you always hurl around false accusations about people?

[treestar]

320. So many other posters don't take it that way either

Yes, you are hallucinating, or rather, jumping on something to make someone else look bad, rather than dealing with the issue.

All I have to do is claim a tragic circumstance and you can no longer oppose me on a debate issue.

[stevenleser]

323. And of course it's no coincidence that these people had issues with me before this

They are completely dishonest. They have nothing on me so they invent that I did this.

[stevenleser]

343. No unbiased person would. They have an agenda and are mischaracterizing my post to serve it. nt

[Rex]

327. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026782652#post170

Saw that, deplorable and expected.

[treestar]

319. Oh so you hope the jurors are not objective

[demwing]

287. Anyone who read can see what happened there

Wow, what a steaming pile of crap that post was.

[stevenleser]

288. Yes they can, and it confirms my version of events. nt

[demwing]

303. cool opinion bro, but not everyone agrees /nt

[stevenleser]

335. Only folks who fight with me all the time about issues and candidates, like you, see it your way.

I think most DUers are smart enough to see that coincidence for what it is.

In otherwords, not a coincidence.

[treestar]

302. SL was referencing her claim she would post a link

Not her claimed death of her child. Are you saying we are not allowed to debate people because of unfortunate events in their lives - all they have to do is claim them and we can no longer debate them? And she was insulting in her posts. Bad events in our lives are meant to allow us to insult other people? I think your characterization of that is unfair and bringing it into this thread is not necessary - you are not debating the issue but the DUer.

Plus it was her post that was hidden.

[KingCharlemagne]

305. He did a ROFL when she stated immediately above that she lost her child. As Bonobo put it, he's

a 'piece of work'.

[treestar]

308. Why did she post that?

Plus he might not have read that far. And her claims were not to the point.

Again he was laughing about her claims to post a link.

This kind of thing makes DU suck. You are off the point of the debate and trying to cut down someone else.

[KingCharlemagne]

312. He was responding to a post where she claimed she had lost her own child. With

a ROFL smilie. And you're defending that?

Your defense of that post makes DU suck.

[treestar]

318. No it was to her claim about posting links

She then added a bunch of stuff that was irrelevant. You seem to be quite judgmental about people and uninterested in the issues. Are you here just to find ways to cut down other people? Gee you better not say anything to oppose me. I've had a rough time in some aspects of my life.

[stevenleser]

362. Bonobo? I have that poster on ignore for years now. They are still following me around attacking me?

They didn't get tired of that being one sided yet?

[demwing]

290. Shit that gets posted online stays online

stevenlesser's post came back to bite...

On Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:45 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Righteo. The corner that attacks women who've lost children has now
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6788991

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack with no words aimed at any kind of topic related to the OP or anything else. Pure 100% personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:54 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: steve did laugh at a DUer who posted about the death of her child that's 100% Pure truth.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Seems to be some grudge Personal Attack.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Bernie supporter here. Hide. Rude and off topic of the thread. I'm really tired of this shit. C'mo people. Act like adults, FFS.

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Tread lightly KingCharlemagne, there's a target on Bernie supporters...

[stevenleser]

291. No, it didn't. That is not what happened. nt

[stevenleser]

292. I am so surprised a poster who has had issues with me for years decides to believe this incorrect

spin.

[KingCharlemagne]

293. I really don't give a fuck. He should have been banned for that shit, since what he did

is way worse than using the c*-word, at least in my moral universe.

[hrmjustin]

295. No he wasn't addressing her personal issues. Sorry but you are reaching here.

[KingCharlemagne]

306. See, in the Hillary-verse, it's perfectly OK to laugh at the death of a child or to

cackle madly after reporting the death by assassination of a foreign head of state.

BTW, he did a ROFL smilie immediately after she reported that she lost her child.

But you go on justifying and rationalizing it.

[hrmjustin]

310. oh lord! I can see what you are doing and i am not going to bother trying to convince you.

[stevenleser]

325. Yep, it's obvious. These folks have been at me for years and now are inventing something

they hope they can continue to use against me.

It's very transparent.

[hrmjustin]

326. Yes it is. Don't pay too much attention to your detractors.

You have friends here.

[treestar]

346. But it was not addressed to that, as is obvious

if you look at it.

[stevenleser]

331. Exactly correct. nt

[demwing]

298. see my PM /nt

[hrmjustin]

299. Spell out what you think he did. You are making this accusation then back it up.

[treestar]

332. LOL

So calling her the c word would have been better?

You are really twisting things here. No, it would not have been.

You're way off. Really ineffective argument. Convinces nobody. Right wingers do this. Because they have no argument, so they go with: Well, I'll simply try to discredit the opponent personally, and can convince others that because SL is a bad person, his opinion is wrong and therefore mine is correct by default. A fallacy. It simply doesn't follow. That's why ad hominem is a fallacy.

Do you have a real opposition to this:

OP didn't mention any candidate first of all. Second, Joe Lieberman marched with MLK

that didn't give him a pass on examining any part of his record or policy proposals.

[stevenleser]

337. So now we see the real issue. Bernie supporters are upset that SKP was banned and want blood from

someone who supports HRC and so much the better that it's someone they have had issues with in the past.

So you invent the idea that my laughing at her wasnt about her personal attack on me in that post, it wasnt about the threat to post a link (that by the way I didnt feel the slightest bit threatened about) you made it about the other completely extraneous stuff that she added to the post that had no relevancy whatsoever and that I didn't address in my post one way or the other.

Folks can see what this is about. Just like the poster who was banned for using the C-word, you think you are being clever, but you are not.

[Duckhunter935]

339. I respect you sir

But the truth and it is the truth, he never said the "C" word. You can keep saying it but it is still just factually incorrect.

[stevenleser]

340. I think we can have an honest disagreement about that. But the attempt at retribution at me for it

is completely contemptible.

[Duckhunter935]

341. Retribution should not be acceptable

I will have to read up on your situation. I have been blocked from the HC group for a post several years ago.

Still the fat is he never used THE word. The only one to use that wird was one of the admins. You can't just change facts.

[treestar]

321. Poor Bernie supporters!

Being opposed on the internet!

[hrmjustin]

294. Steve was not making fun of her situation.

Your taking it the wrong way. He was posting about her last time she went on a 5 hide vacation she sent out nasty pms.

He was in no way making fun of her situation.

This poster should not be banned for his post.

[KingCharlemagne]

296. Um, yeah he should - nt

[hrmjustin]

297. It looks to me you are purposely misreading his post. Very dishonest on your part.

[demwing]

300. Calling another DUer dishonest because he doesnt square with your opinion?

sounds like a personal attack.

It looks to me like you should be careful about how you frame your posts...

[hrmjustin]

304. Spell out how Steve attacked her about her past.

[demwing]

309. Spell out where I say he did?

What I wrote is that his post in the thread of question was a steaming pile of crap.

and I'm not alone in that opinion...

[hrmjustin]

311. Yet he was not the one who got hidden posts.

[demwing]

314. Lol, apparently some people like posts that are steaming piles of crap!

even on DU

[hrmjustin]

315. Or people can see what is really going on here.

[demwing]

316. Again, some people see it your way, and others see it differently

thanks for bringing us full circle

[hrmjustin]

317. Just defending someone from false accusations.

[treestar]

329. Yes it was her post that was hidden ironically

And she used two children, a 6 year old she allegedly watched die and then her son who died at the age of 7 (though it was worded she was 7 when her son died). It lacks credibility. Seems more like drama to make herself a victim, Poor me who suffered so much and now has to on top of that see a post on DU that supposedly attacked her. So that makes you who oppose me such a bad and horrible persons. And now we are far far from the debate about the C-word spoonerism. We've changed the subject to how evil it is to disagree with this poor woman or laugh at her bad logic.

[hrmjustin]

330. i can not speak to her history but i think the hide speaks for itself.

[treestar]

324. It is dishonest to use the laughing smilie

laughing at the claims of linking, to laughing at her for losing a child (which cannot be proved on the internet and she threw it in there when it had no relevance - to be perceived as victim, which some see as someone you cannot oppose). It is clear SL was not laughing at her claim to have lost a child. The other poster jumps on an opportunity, he feels, to make it looks like that.

All to avoid debating the real issue, or trying to win by saying "the person with a different opinion is a bad person" which is only ad hominem.

[stevenleser]

334. Yes it is dishonest. It speaks to how weak they believe their positions are that they resort to this

they cannot deal with me on an honest debate of the issues and candidates so they resort to a dishonest spin of what I wrote.

It speaks volumes about what someone who would do this is about.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

344. Ugh. Get some context, dude. nt

[BainsBane]

348. I was asked to weigh in here

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Since it was my OP. I'll provide the link to the exchange in question for you to read yourself.

This was the OP. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6279986
The subthread that begins at post 30 is the one in question. Polly became angry about post 45. Stevenlesser was not the author of the post, nor was he laughing at Polly. She had a post hidden for her response to post 45, and then a conversation ensued about a subsequent new account created, which you see as name removed. Steven made a comment about that. He also disclosed that she sent him hostile PMs in response. If you note, others in that thread also talked about receiving hostile PMs, and there is discussion about similar actions in the past.

Now, as for attacking women with dead children, I myself had no idea Polly lost a child seven years ago. That is indeed tragic, and I am sorry for her loss. We all come to this board and participate based on what we write. No one knows what goes on in our private lives unless we disclose it. People criticize me all the time. My father died just a month ago, and I am still grieving while planning his memorial service. I am also a survivor of domestic violence and other traumas I prefer not to be specific about. When someone has words with me, I respond based on the content of their post. I don't say "you are attacking a woman whose father just died . . .." No one here is responsible for those events in my life, any more than they are responsible for Polly's tragedy. Nor does any of that make one immune from responsibility for what they write.

This should set the record straight, if you are in fact concerned with what actually happened. However, if you are simply using random excuses to attack someone rather than dealing with the content of a discussion, I suppose it won't matter much.

[Number23]

360. I can't believe you came into this thread of ALL THREADS with this petty bullshit

Unbelievable.

[stevenleser]

361. Some folks don't realize when they try to attack other people they are in fact saying

A lot about themselves.

In this case, the person derailed and disrespected an important OP about race to bring up a bullshit accusation motivated by past disagreements with me and a desire to seek retribution for SKP's banning by getting a Hillary supporter banned.

You summed it up well. Petty bullshit.

[jtuck004]

350. Not ahistorical shit. It's one thing to march up and down the street, it's another to let

your neighbors be screwed over by bankers, charged more for loans that you are because you are white, so you can profit, or for your Treasury Secretary to screw over tens of millions of people to help bank$gter/donors keep their assets healthy, and send them hundreds of billions in profit while cooperating in a criminal conspiracy to steal from the country and let 100 million Americans fall into poverty or near poverty, and leave their children there. (it's in his book "Stress Test" - you can hear voters laugh at his face, here. And a bunch of "liberal" folk voted for it.

The poster is saying all these so-called white liberals may be great at marching in parades, but why, then, don't they shut down the school-to-prison pipeline for blacks that exist in Chicago and many other cities.

Now we have an administration, supposedly liberal, who is chortling about how much has been saved by lowering the deficit, partly by ending the hiring of folks at the federal level, one of the few places they could be treated fairly, so unemployment is now higher among black folks because of them,

What the OP should have suggested is not that they can't be counted on when there are enough of them. But when they are your neighbor, or elected to represent you, it might be that they are two-faced, or not as responsive when it isn't people who look like them being murdered in the street.

White folks are just too comfortable.

[stevenleser]

278. K&R

[Agnosticsherbet]

307. Overt and unconscious racism and sexism are the reasions why peole of color

and women have a drastic shortae of jobs, and enjoy fewer opportunities in our communities.

It is not a conpsiracy of bankers to keep them in their place.

Women do not recive less pay due to income inequality practiced by the wealthy and banks. A few prominent and wealthy men of color did not magically erase the color barriers.

Sexism keeps most women in a lower position relative to men. Against, the success of a few have not changed the disarity in pay.

The effects of racism and sexism are a biger drivers of income inequality for a majority of Americans than all the wealthy bankers and Koch brothers put together.

[YoungDemCA]

313. K&R. There's a "joke" by a black comedian (whose name is escaping me...)...

From a few years ago, rough paraphrase:

"And now everyone in America is talking about unemployment. Man, unemployment wasn't a political issue until white people were being laid off."

Anyway, you articulated all of this so well. Thank you!

[Rex]

322. I think They should dare you to post in GD more often!

I'd say instead of whatever fear about this thread was felt, it is now obvious how needed the OP was in GD!

[stevil]

336. Thank You

Excellent breakdown.

[Solly Mack]

342. ^up

[KMOD]

363. K&R

[cui bono]

364. I don't believe anyone is saying that economic justice will fix social injustices.

But that they are intertwined.

People can fight for both. What's wrong with that? There seems to be a movement on DU that is attempting to separate out the two and make the claim that social is more important than economic. I don't believe anyone from an oppressed group living in poverty will think that. I think they will believe they are both important as they are suffering from both injustices. When you don't have enough money to put food on your table I think that becomes one of your priorities.

Of course getting rich will not change the fact that racism/sexism/homophobia exist. They are systemic, it will take a lot to make them go away. That much is obvious since we are still fighting the same battles centuries after they began and decades after they were supposedly legislated away.

By the same token, being socially equal will not change the fact that big corporations run this country. It will not bring jobs back to the US, it will not rein in the bankers. It will not eliminate greed. It will not eliminate corporate welfare. Legislation has to do that. And so we have to fight for economic justice alongside social justice.

I'm glad that you are doing well financially. A lot of people are not. And I'll be damned if I'm going to give up the fight for all the poor people in this country and the fight to keep the American dream alive so that people don't have to work more than one job to feed their families.

So there it is. Addressing economic injustice does not help black people who are part of the 1%.

Everybody wants to have enough money to be comfortable at the very least. I get that. And I'm willing to push for a higher minimum wage, and pay equity. Those are clearly issues that people of different races can agree on, depending on their political views. But it is laughable and educational that on a website for liberal Democrats there are people who downplay racial injustice. Especially educational. It is no wonder the Republican party thinks that they can win us over. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.

So there it is. You are living well financially and so you care less about what does not affect you personally. You are part of the 1% and we are now supposed to fight your fight only? You are "willing" to push for "higher minimum wage, and pay equity"? That's not very much of a fight, tbh. There is so much more that needs to be fought for economically, like getting rid of free trade deals, regulating Wall Street, getting rid of tax loop holes for the 1% and big corporations, getting rid of subsidies for big oil when they are making $25bn/year in profits. If we fixed all of that we would be able to put the money into education and infrastructure of all of our communities. That in turn could help with the social justice.

I'm not just "willing" to fight for a few areas of social justice, I do it enthusiastically and believe it should be across the board, not just one or two smaller things akin to "higher minimum wage, and pay equity" on the economic front.

When you state that "Addressing economic injustice does not help black people who are part of the 1%." and then end with "Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.", you seem to be making it clear that you are not liberal and you are centrist. Presumably socially progressive and economically conservative. And you make a statement about liberal Dems which is completely offbase. You base it on DU posts for one, and call DU a site for liberal Democrats, which it is not. It is for Democrats, not just liberal Dems. Yes there are people who don't understand what White Privilege is who post on here, but then those are not liberal Dems. Liberal Dems are liberal on both social and economic matters.

Do you not see that your statements are just the flip side of the coin? You are basically saying you got yours economically, so meh, not that important for others to get theirs. At least not as important as you getting the rest of yours. What about all the people who literally don't have enough money to put food on their table? Who die because they can't afford to have heat or air conditioning? Statistics show that more PoC live in poverty than Whites. Doesn't throw a wrench in your argument?

Everyone is going to look at life through their own experiences. But I really think that bringing up Oprah's incident as an example is coming off as completely tone deaf to people's fight for survival. Like I said, you are the flip side of the coin.

I'm not saying that social justice doesn't matter, just that economic justice matters just as much. To some one will matter more than the other depending on their individual circumstance so how about we fight for both together and stop trying to make this a divisive issue.

[qwlauren35]

365. I'm going to agree to disagree.

Some people are willing to fight for both, some choose one over the other, some suggest that the two are intertwined. In my mind, the last is a cop-out, because it suggests that fighting for economic justice will somehow miraculously address racial injustice. I have tried my best to show how they are different. VERY different.

And I have been very careful with my words. I have said "ECONOMIC" vs. "RACIAL". I have not used the word "SOCIAL" which is an umbrella that tries to encompass both.

Because racial and economic "justice" involve policies, it is hard to "fight" for either of them. I find myself fighting symptoms more than causes. For those who have figured out how to fight for justice, I applaud them. But frankly, I think there are more people who say that they WANT them, and fewer who FIGHT for them.

I am not in the 1%. I wish we were closer to a socialist democracy. I wish that all of us had enough for basics, as is true in other European countries, and I have no problem taxing the 1% to achieve this.

But I do not see this as addressing issues of race. That is ALL that I am saying. Economic justice does not stop white people from hating black people.

Now, if you want to distinguish between DUers and liberal Democrats, and suggest that liberal Democrats will always fight for racial justice as well as economic justice, I will accept that, and not ask you to prove it. In fact, it may be the definition of a liberal Democrat, although to me it sounds like a socialist. The fact is, I'm glad that you highlighted my last sentence, because it seems to be getting ignored. So if I am incorrect about liberal Democrats, then I would state that they are a dying breed, and we still cannot count on them, because there are too few of them, and their energy is split. If you try to tackle too many things at once, none of them get your full attention.

With that said, I feel confident that there are LOTS of people willing to fight for economic justice, and that my desire to fight for racial justice should be accepted. It is like the PETA people. Or the climate change people. Or the pro-choice people (I'm one of them.) It's okay to focus on one. I respect that more than someone who suggests that "they are intertwined". To me, that's like saying climate change and abortion rights are intertwined, so when we fight for one, we are addressing the other. OK, maybe it's not that bad, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.

I do not respect people who will not let me distinguish between economic justice and racial justice. In my mind, that is disrespecting my reality.

[lovemydog]

370. For those who keep misstating what the original post says: stop it.

For those talking down to the original poster here: shame on you.

[NCTraveler]

377. Saw this a couple of days ago.

Worth a second look. Great op.

[marym625]

378. I don't see anyone saying social justice isn't as important as anything

Not that I see everything

But the economic justice isn't just about equality on pay and closing the gap between C class and the average worker. It's about ending policies that allow the oligarchy, the corpocracy to run everything. The policies that make it impossible to have social justice.

[Warpy]

379. Actually, economic justice might have meant Trayvon Martin would still be alive

The lack of it caused Zimmerman to assume that Martin was an intruder from a poor neighborhood, an outsider who was likely up to no good, because without economic justice, no one with black skin could possibly afford to live in a nice area.

Racism is also classism, everybody with black skin automatically clicked into the underclass of welfare families, criminals, and people who do the worst work for the least money. It doesn't matter if they're wearing tailored suits with shoes that represent two months of a cop's pay. If they're black, they're poor. And if they're poor, they're up to no good.

You can't have one without the other. If you have no economic justice, you will have no social justice. If you have no social justice, you have no hope of economic justice.

This whole debate has been a stupid one. The two things are inextricably intertwined.

[qwlauren35]

382. I don't agree.

But if you think it's stupid for me to disagree with you, I accept that.

[Warpy]

383. False choices are appealing to a lot of people

Look how many responses you're getting.

[qwlauren35]

384. I guess we're all stupid.

You have a right to your opinion.