General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSentencing reform: I'm going to present a false dilemma
I'm going to present this knowing it's a false dilemma, with all of us agreeing we all know it's a false dilemma, because I still think it's a good mental experiment.
In 1992, the prison population was 883,000, or 0.3% of the population.
Today, the prison population is 2,300,000, or 0.7% of the population.
In 1992, the violent crime rate was 757 per 100,000
Today, the violent crime rate is 367 per 100,000
(Note that incarceration is slightly more than twice what it was in 1992, and violent crime is slightly less than half of what it was in 1992. I think that's to some extent a coincidence, but it's worth pointing out.)
Recognizing that actually reducing incarceration would not necessarily bring violence back up to 1990s levels, would you support a hypothetical trade in which we returned to both 1992 levels of violent crime and 1992 levels of incarceration? (Never mind the "how" -- something about society changes and we wind up back with 1992 incarceration levels and 1992 crime rates. Would you consider that a good trade-off?)
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| No | |
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TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)prison populations by not incarcerating non-violent petty criminals shouldn't increase the violent crime rate.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I don't think any society in history has ever freed as many people, from as violent and brutal a prison system as we have, as real prison reform would take.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)and to get back to your original question-- I think either option is cruel and unusual.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)They are wrong to grab, but dangerous to release. I realized incarceration may be somewhat like that (are those non-violent drug users still non-violent after a decade in our brutal prison system?) Anyways, just did an OP on that which hopefully may go somewhere.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Tens of thousands a month. In some cases we're talking about lifers.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)joshcryer
(62,536 posts)However, a lot of them are released after only 10% of their sentence has been done, so you can make the argument that they weren't "exposed" to "jail life" and that they're still able to operate as normal citizens.
Article: http://www.wsj.com/articles/violent-crime-in-california-falls-to-lowest-rate-since-1967-1412360177
(Note it's not perfect.)
MH1
(19,156 posts)How do you return to sane incarceration rates?
Step 1 is stop incarcerating people for stupid reasons.
That in itself doesn't free people who are currently incarcerated, but the rate would come down over time.
Of course in practice, to stop incarcerating people for stupid reasons probably means changing a law in such a way that it would be necessary (morally and in public opinion at least) to make it retroactive.
So then the concern you imply comes into play. We incarcerated a bunch of people who weren't violent criminals before, but now they've been in a great training program for creating violent criminals. So we've set ourselves up a nice, true dilemma here.
Wounded Bear
(64,324 posts)it's called a captive customer base. The coporatized prison complex loves this aspect of it all. It keeps their profitized prisons full to overflowing.
MH1
(19,156 posts)If society really wanted to break those chains, we could come up with a way to do it.
But I strongly agree with your point. It's been all about locking in profit and that's why we're at this place now.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)But, I doubt that the increase is all or even mostly violent criminals.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)1. People who are not violent criminals when they enter prison can leave prison as violent criminals because our system is so brutal and counterproductive
2. I never said "how" the trade would be made (and there's a lot more at play here than just the people in prison: incarceration has changed entire communities in multiple complex ways, and reducing it significantly would change them again). I just said imagine a trade-off with that as the result: would you be for it?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)joshcryer
(62,536 posts)But it's of course a totally false dilemma, thus I can't vote on it, because people will act as if I support the perceived conclusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Violent_and_nonviolent_crime
Recursion
(56,582 posts)or by violent crime?
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)I think the main point I am trying to make is that most of the prison population is non-violent crime due to the war on drugs than anything else.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)A non violent offender who is violent in prison is no longer considered non violent. You seem to profess that a person can be put in prison for car theft, kill people in prison and still be considered just a car thief and that is not the case.
These are individual humans, you simply can not announce that they are all violent now because they were in prison because that is not true. Where is the justice is painting them all as violent? Where is the evidence that allows you to say this?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's empirical.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)is because of mandatory minimums and unrealistic parole conditions. People go in, but they don't come out, and they just keep stacking up. If you do come out and get a dirty UA, for example, you go right back in.
They need to completely overhaul the sentencing guidelines and allow judges more discretion when determining sentences and also make real efforts toward rehabilitation, not just warehousing people.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I may be coming across as anti-sentencing reform, but I'd like to see an order of magnitude fewer people in prison right now. Except. Maybe give them a month for a transition program. Which we don't have. And... hence the OP.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)(my ex-husband) who did basically 11 years on an eight-year sentence because of minor parole violations. In Alaska, for every three days you serve, you get a day of good time, which is then mandatory parole when you get out. (I assume that's still the scheme; I haven't worked in corrections for 30 years.). What often happens is that a person will be out on supervised parole (which isn't really freedom, by a long shot) and the parole officers will wait until the person is almost off paper before revoking parole for some little infraction. Then the inmate has to go back in for the remainder of the sentence, again with the good time, and again with the hammer of revocation hanging over their head when they get out. It can really get to be a vicious cycle.
I don't know about your state, but here a huge majority of the violent and nonviolent crimes (such as burglary) involve alcohol. There need to be far more treatment programs, and not necessarily of the AA variety.
Before I was a CO/counselor, I was a paralegal for a criminal defense lawyer, and then later in my life I transcribed criminal trials for the appeals of indigent defendants for several years. I was also married to the above-mentioned ex-convict for 17 years. My experiences really opened my eyes to the failures of the criminal justice system.
Honestly, I could write a book.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)"a huge majority of the violent and nonviolent crimes (such as burglary) involve alcohol"
So true. The statistics are scary. But the liquor industry is very powerful. Americans have no idea what a horrible influence alcohol is in our society. It causes so much suffering, so much suffering.
The least we could do is warn people about alcohol and alcohol addiction as we do in enlightened states about tobacco.
Yet another reason to support Bernie and get money out of politics.
I read in the book, The Bully Pulpit that one of the reasons for the prohibition was the fact that so much of the political corruption of the time was organized in the bars.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)I had guys on my case load who had perpetrated some really horrifying crimes that they couldn't even remember because they were blacked out when they committed them. When sober, they were funny, interesting, talented, creative, sometimes really smart ... Basically, pretty normal people.
Alcohol can be such a poison, particularly when the user has had a difficult or traumatic childhood, another common denominator among most of the inmates I knew. In the vast majority of cases I dealt with, the victimizer had also been a victim.
Temperamentally, I couldn't continue working in corrections for the long haul because I was just too empathetic. Being put in the position of simultaneously being designated a counselor and a corrections officer was untenable for me. I wanted people to trust me enough to open up in our one-on-ones, but as a CO I was expected to report much of what they told me. I just couldn't do that. Room shakedowns weren't my thing; I wanted to leave the "busting" to the more going-ho officers.
. It was definitely a learning experience, though.
A couple weeks after I quit, I received a card in the mail signed by probably 25 or 30 of the inmates I had counseled saying how much they missed talking to me and how I had helped. I was touched, and I've kept it all these years.
JonLP24
(29,929 posts)I'll drink every now and then but it isn't something I ever prefer to do that and it was the not remembering what I was doing while I blacked out several years ago that led me to pretty much completely stop. I was afraid that I could get into a car or something kill me or someone else and sitting in prison over something I didn't remember doing.
I appreciate your posts in this thread, I've known of examples where some take advantage of the power whether that be a PO or an employer of their ability to revoke them but even without that the parole rules are very stingy. You may like this though I imagine you already know all this stuff
Why It Might Be Time To Rethink The Rules Of Parole
I dont think everyone coming out of prison needs to be supervised, said Brian Fischer, former commissioner of the New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision. In this hypothetical scenario, the likelihood of recidivism is zero, he said. Why do we need to restrict him?
Parole conditions vary widely from state to state and case to case. As states attempt to reduce their prison populations, and as the number of parolees grows now up to more than 851,000 people nationally advocates are increasingly concerned that parole rules can be too restrictive for the average parolee, making it too easy to end up behind bars again for technical violations.1 As states contend with the high cost of incarceration and use parole to cut costs, advocates are calling for consistency in how its deployed.
Some restrictions seem practical (complying with all laws), while others seem nearly impossible to follow (abandon evil associates and ways). Other times, they run counter to mainstream culture; states including Kansas, Kentucky and Hawaii prevent parolees from drinking alcohol and going into bars.2 Also, enforcement of these rules varies from parole agent to parole agent.
Most of us could not live under the rules of parole because there are too many of them, Fischer said.
Certain behaviors that break a law, and therefore also violate parole terms, are fairly common in the general public. In 2013, 19.8 million adults were current marijuana users, according to the National Institute on Drug Abuse. Almost half of drivers say they keep up with faster, often speeding traffic. About 660,000 people used a cellphone while driving in 2011, which potentially breaks the law in at least 44 states. Not only do these actions violate parole, they delay the reentry process, especially if a parolee found in violation is sent to a treatment facility or county jail, which costs taxpayers money.3
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-it-might-be-time-to-rethink-the-rules-of-parole/
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)I've never seen people pushing marijuana or other illegal drugs on to others, despite the fact that people often worry about it. But alcohol? That gets pushed on to people all the time. And it's much more dangerous than something like marijuana or psychedelics (and without the benefits of those as well).
ucrdem
(15,720 posts)but when you put it that way it does give one pause. But I think the trade off isn't so much between crime and prison as prison and parks, schools, mental health counseling and other state-operated programs and getting those back I think would be worth the trade.
Interesting question!
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)When states spend more on building and maintaining prisons than they do on education, something is seriously wrong.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Reducing the numbers of inmates in prisons and jails to earlier levels would not necessarily result in the crime rates of the earlier time.
A lot of factors figure into the reduction in crime rates, and with a better prison system holding fewer non-violent, often drug-related prisoners, a lower prison population could well mean even less crime than we have today.
The poll is really poorly thought out.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Apparently people weren't reading it
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)On the other hand, this is DU. I think that if you thought that merely starting your post with "I'm going to present this knowing it's a false dilemma, with all of us agreeing we all know it's a false dilemma, because I still think it's a good mental experiment" and putting "Recognizing that actually reducing incarceration would not necessarily bring violence back up to 1990s levels" in bold would be enough to stop people posting "Your dilemma is false, reducing incarceration would not bring violence back up to 1990s levels, how dare you suggest that it would!!!" then you were being deeply naive.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Wah wah...
JonLP24
(29,929 posts)I have an idea but not sure crime has been on an overall national crime decline since the 80's, it isn't because of locking up so many people they have felony convictions so more difficult to find work or housing therefore more crime which is why the 80's were so violent that many of the cities such as Detroit since have been abandoned. Less people to commit crimes, plus the 90s were a great decade for middle class employment for the most part, anyway.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Extrapolate a conclusion from a known falsehood?
"Good mental experiment?"
If you say so.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)It has people make false choices based on wrong assumptions of false data.
The exact opposite of actual scientific method.
In other words: Garbage in, garbage out.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It should be possible to release many prisoners into home confinement with GPS monitoring.
Calista241
(5,633 posts)In a little over 1 months since the riots, arrests are 1/2 what they were last year, and the murder rate has spiked dramatically.
JonLP24
(29,929 posts)2005 over 100,000+ were arrested in Baltimore and the murder rate stayed the same. There was a drop in the number from the police department but not the medical examiner's office
http://www.wbaltv.com/Homicide-Rate-Police-Procedures-Questioned/8885162
Didn't know of the recent spike though but one usually doesn't have something to do with the other or correlation doesn't imply causation. Locking up more people for dime bags or anything small time doesn't have much to do with the murder rate -- long high end investigations were one arrest (at the top) is made has a better effect of decreasing the violence -- outside of addressing root issues such as poverty.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)The symmetry in the numbers makes it relatively easy to rephrase this problem.
In 1992, 0.7% of the populace spent a year in prison and 0.3% were victims of violent crime.
This year, those numbers are exactly the other way round.
Some of those crimes were murders, rapes, maimings etc, which are arguably worse to be a victim of that spending a year in prison. But I suspect that most of them were less unpleasant and harmful for the victims than a years imprisonment would be. So that's an argument in favour of 1992.
On the other hand, most of the people sent to prison had chosen to commit a crime - very minor crimes in some cases, but still crimes they chose to commit and could have chosen not to commit - whereas most of the victims of violent crime are innocent. I think that's a stronger argument in favour of the present day.
So, with some strong reservations, I voted "no".
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I don't think the answer is as easy in either direction as people want it to be.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I think it would be relatively easy to have the best of both worlds - most first-world countries have neither the crime levels of 1992 America nor the incarceration levels of modern America.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's almost as if that's the answer...
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I think a country with low taxes and poor social support, which punished more serious crimes severely but didn't lock up vast numbers of non-violent drug offenders and petty thieves for long periods the way America could probably still have both relatively low incarceration rates and relatively low rates of serious crime.
Decent social spending, and in particular education spending certainly helps, though.
kcr
(15,522 posts)JonLP24
(29,929 posts)Lead theorists say that doesn't matter because the big problem is mainstream criminologists and policymakers who can't think outside the box.
I agree 100%
JonLP24
(29,929 posts)Rape evidence ignored by police departments statewide
Rape is a horrific crime that often goes unsolved. Even victims who are brutally violated are sometimes reluctant to go to police or to have evidence collected from their body and clothing at a hospital.
That's why Evergreen Health in Kirkland staffs its emergency room with a specially trained sexual assault nurse examiner (also called a forensic nurse examiner) 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Those nurses provide emotional support to rape victims, while also delicately and carefully collecting evidencecalled a rape kit--that may have been left behind by a perpetrator. With the victim's consent, the rape kits are sent on to the police, where the DNA evidence can help track down and prosecute perpetrators.
<snip>
CODIS Lab Manager Jean Johnston says if there is a hit it means the DNA from the rape kit matches the profile of a convicted offender or suspect that was previously entered CODIS.
But the lab can't test what it never gets. And the KING 5 Investigators found that the majority of rape kits in Washington are still sitting in evidence rooms.
Seattle Police Department records show that out of 1641 rape kits collected over a decade, only 365 were ever submitted to the Washington State Patrol Lab, leaving nearly 1300 untested kits on the shelf.
The Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs (WASPC) is in the process of surveying nearly 300 law enforcement agencies statewide to find out how many untested rape kits are out there.
WASPC Executive Director Mitch Barker says so far only 68 agencies have returned the surveys, but the number of untested rape kits has already reached 4,679. Barker expects the number could easily hit 6,000 and the Washington State Patrol crime lab predicts it could be much higher.
All of those untested kits worry victims' advocates like Mary Ellen Stone, Director of the King County Sexual Assault Resource Center in Renton.
"The justice system needs to be as responsive to victims as it can possibly be," Stone says "Where we get really concerned about rape kits not being tested, for whatever reason, is that it sends a very dismissive message to victims."
http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/investigations/2015/01/14/rape-evidence-ignored-by-police-departments-statewide/21725431/
Sheriff Joe's MCSO has no problem locking up large numbers of people for whatever and for made up reasons (such as forgery) but complex, high end investigations are better suited to address violence rather than body counts behind bars but rape? They would rather do something else.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I believe there are a lot of people that could be helped IF a greater effort is made. However, the last few decades we have been going the wrong direction. We need to put the resources into keeping people out of prison rather than throwing them in prison.