My husband and I were married in the Catholic church; our civil marriage was NOT RECOGNIZED

[K8-EEE]

They were very emphatic that we were not considered to be married "in the eyes of the church" because we were married by a justice of the peace and that DID NOT COUNT. It did not count so much that we had to TAKE RIDICULOUS PRE-MARITAL CLASSES that seemed designed for high school sex ed class after we were married for 2 years!

So here is my question: why is the RCC trying to control the definition of this thing they DO NOT EVEN RECOGNIZE in the first place.

[MADem]

1. Did you have to pay for those classes?

Were you expected to attend services and put a few nickles in the box to be saved?

Did you have to pay a hefty fee for a priest "wedding planner?" Did they charge you for the use of the church, beyond, say, a minimal "cleaning fee?"

All this stuff is new and mandated in many parishes.

They need the money to pay off the pedophile lawsuits. It's why they're selling off high maintance churches, too--those beautiful brick things that are a bit expensive to heat and repair....

[K8-EEE]

4. Hmmm.....I don't think so.

Maybe a nominal fee for the classes, I just very much DID NOT want to take them. We had a 5 minute "ceremony" with just my parents between masses -- really I just wanted to placate my mom who was upset we weren't "really" married.

Actually I think the pre-marital counseling is probably not a bad idea. I remember this one very young couple (post high school) broke up during the counseling, I thought SHE really got her money's worth out of it. The hub to be was a football hunk but didn't talk much. They had questions like "what would you do if your wife gained weight' AND I WILL NEVER FORGET THIS -- they guy said he would drive his truck around and make her run after it until she lost the weight because if they were married her body was COMMUNITY PROPERTY and he would not put up with her "ruining it!" All the women in the class during the break were like, UM, ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO GO THROUGH WITH THIS? And in the end she did not.

[hedgehog]

7. That sounds like an excellent class - too many dioceses

are replacing it with a course on Natural Family Planning!

If I recall correctly, it was a Sister out in the Midwest who put together an extensive and very useful questionnaire for use in Pre-Cana groups. I'm not certain if there are any "correct" answers, the goal is to ensure that the people will be happily married by getting them to discuss possible flash points before the wedding.

A lot of dioceses bought the questionnaire and the diocese took in a lot of cash. Then someone found out that the Sister was getting/taking a cut of the profit, and she ended up in criminal court. The diocese claimed ownership of the questionnaire and all proceeds.

[RebelOne]

2. My daughter and her husband were married in the 1980s

by a justice of the peace. They had a grand wedding, but it was not in a church. They were married outside a country club and the reception was inside. But in the '90s, her husband joined the Catholic church. She is an atheist, as I am, but they had to remarry in the Catholic church for their marriage to be recognized by the church. She also had to attend pre-martial classes. Can you imagine an atheist attending pre-martial classes in a Catholic church and then having to be married again in the church. But she bravely went through it. They have since split up and are in the midst of a divorce.

[hedgehog]

8. The irony is that the husband will now have to get an annullment

if he wants to re-marry, and the Vatican has tightened up on the rules!

[alarimer]

22. Personally, I would never have done the classes in the first place.

If my husband wanted to be Catholic, fine. Just don't drag me into your superstitious death cult. I would have outright refused, even if it ended the relationship right then.

[freshwest]

3. The Reichwing religionists are vying for control of the theocracy they are creating state by state

While dismantling secular government across the country by slashing revenues and forcing people to go to them or die.

That's the plan, we're just seeing it in the public eye more. People can decide what kind of country they want at the polls.

[southernyankeebelle]

5. Those classes are called Pre Cana and I will tell you this much I went through them.

At first I didn't think it was right for the catholic church to tell me I had to go through these classes. I got married back in 78. Pre Cana classes weren't yet in full bloom. I know my sister and her husband didn't take the course at all. He just found a priest that would marry them in the church. We my husband and I attended. I don't remember if we paid for the class. I think we did but it wasn't much. It was enough to pay for the litature for the classes. It was a very informative class. They had volunteers to talked about finances, communications and things like that. I don't remember us even talking about religion. Which surprised me. At the end we all took a compatiable test and then the couple reviewed their answers. I have to say in the long run it was a very interesting classes. Each week you talked about one issue. I think every church should have that kind of a course. Ours wasn't long. I think it was 3 or 4 weeks. I have heard where some are 6 months.

Now I know in Italy when my mother and father got married in 1944 they got married through the justice of the peace. Then they had a catholic church wedding. I think (not real sure) you have to get married at the justice or court house first before it is recognized. Then you can have your church wedding.

Legally your marriage is recognized by the state and it doesn't matter if the church recognizes it or not.

[tabbycat31]

14. You are onto something there

Perhaps what this country needs is to stop recognizing religious wedding ceremonies and have a separate civil and religious ceremony like other countries do (I know that France does this). That way religions can recognize whatever marriages they want without the state being involved at all.

That might solve the problem.

[southernyankeebelle]

17. Yes that would be good. But I tell you the Pre Cana classes are really good and everyone should

go before they get married.

[Retrograde]

25. It's the one-size-fits-all approach I have a problem with

When I was considering a church wedding to please my parents the Pre-Cana classes were sold as teaching one how to live on one's own, budget, and run a household. Fine for people going into marriage directly from high school, not so good for people who were already supporting themselves and dealing with apartment leases, utility payments, grocery shopping and the other basics covered. Mr. Retro and I come from different religious and ethnic backgrounds, and from vastly different parts of the country, me from New York and him from Alabama. We knew each other for four years before we got married, so it wasn't a hasty decision. We ended up with a civil ceremony. But if we did decide to get remarried in the Catholic church we'd still have to go through the same checklist after nearly 40 years - what is the point?

I'm glad the classes work for some people: I'm curious to hear what you thought were the good points.

[SharonAnn]

27. Chile and Italy also do this. Civil marriage is the legal one. Religious is the sacramental one.

[rug]

6. Precisely.

[snagglepuss]

9. I don't like having to defend the Catholic Church but your story shows they are being

consistent i.e. they have a religious definition of marriage.

[Retrograde]

10. You mentioned it in your post

It's about control: despite the Jesuits the traditional Church does not like people to think for themselves. I think this dates back to the time when the local priest was the only (barely) educated person in the village, and people were expected to look to him as being superior. This doesn't work when the parishioners are also educated, and especially when they live in a society that stresses equality. Requiring people to take these classes before getting married in a Catholic church is one of the few remaining ways they can exert control over lapsed Catholics and non-Catholics who want to please their families.

The pre-marital classes are the main reason we chose not to be married in a church almost 40 years ago.

[hifiguy]

11. LOL. Since the government, and not the RCC

writes the tax rules applicable to married couples, who gives a flying monkey fuck?

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Why we need a complete separation of church state

How it works in other places... Church can and does pack sand when it comes to that contract before the state.

Now the churches, temples, etcetera, have to recognize the validity of that civil marriage before they can even plan on marrying you before god, FSM, may pole, what have you. They can't if you lack a marriage certificate, not a license, a certificate.

I am sorry they did that, but we have given religious leaders that power.

For the record, marriage in a religious institution was purely a legal contract, blessed by god and the congregation, at one time. But the power was equivalent to that of the state.

It is time we join other countries around the world. And thanks for the real example of why this needs to happen.

[ashling]

20. I am for the separation of church and hate

[rurallib]

13. the catholic church does not recognize my marriage; I do not recognize the catholic church

game tied.
When my mother was dying my dad asked that i return to the church for her sake. Really a nasty position to put me in. But I had to say no.

[Ilsa]

18. "Return" as in rejoin?

I'm not sure I see how that is supposed to make your I'll mother better, unless it made her feel better about your soul or something.

I admire you for being able to put your foot down and say, "No thank you."

[rurallib]

21. yeah - rejoin

I was pretty much out of the church before I was out of high school. My mother died when I was 23 of cancer caused by smoking and drinking. Apparently my estrangement from the church bothered her. But she never said a thing to me. And the way my dad handled it really pissed me off.

[Ilsa]

26. I don't blame you for being pissed.

That's some serious manipulation. You have my best wishes in dealing with family.

[rurallib]

29. Well, my parents were both dead by the time I was 25

and I have some long lost cousins I never see. Both my parents were orphans, so I only have 2 brothers to worry about and one won't speak to me (no idea why)
So I am lucky in that I don't have to worry what family thinks.

[wandy]

15. This is what's good about that whole separation of church and state stuff....

From the governments point of view marriage licenses should be like fishing, hunting or drivers licenses.
If any two consenting adults wish to be married the only difference should be that two people have to sign.
If a couple wishes to be 'married in the church' then it's none of the government's business what foibles and fallacies the church puts them through.

[PavePusher]

16. Why did you not tell the RCC to attempt aerial fornication?

[ashling]

19. Melodie and I were married

by a Baptist minister in his living room. We drove out in the country to the house of the guy who had been the preacher at Mel's church when she was young. She wore red painter's pants and a plaid-ish shirt. I was in blue jeans and a brown corduroy jacket ... oh, and suede cowboy boots. By the way, that was 32 years ago the day before yesterday (5/10/80)

[rustydog]

23. Simply because they have you and me looking at this "christian man and woman thing"

while corporations are still "people my friend" while JP morgan lost a few billion after lobbying heavily to have rules relaxed for them, them alone. Tax breaks for the wealthy are still on the table and everyone wants to drill baby drill.

It is a diversion, plain and simple.

[RB TexLa]

24. Marriage is a sacrament of the church

Just as the church would not recognize the validity of a priest who had been "ordained" by a justice of the peace neither would they recognize a marriage performed by one.

The exception is baptism. As long as one was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity and they had faith in what they were doing it's accepted. The person performing the baptism isn't required to have had faith in what they were doing.

Edited to add: I agree with your position on the church and civil marriage.

[jp11]

28. My thought to that would be that if my marriage didn't count then their opinion

doesn't count but I am not a person of faith.

To say your marriage didn't count says to me that they saw you as then living in sin or otherwise not abiding by the tenants of the church, again to me that is an extremely poor way to treat your 'members'.

I can see them wanting people to marry in the church but to be what I can only guess was fairly rude about it was the wrong way to get you to comply with their policies.

People of extreme faith, wanting to push it on others, want the church to have more power over people's lives like it did back in the day.

[tabasco]

30. I choose to worship Thor

He doesn't have a bunch of silly-ass rules like this.