Post removed

[SusanCalvin]

1. No one should be cut against his/her stated wishes

Unless stated wishes are not available for whatever reason, and it is necessary to save life.

I know no background whatsoever on this, but that seems obvious.

Sheesh! What is the background on this? Why does the dad insist? Why does anyone at all side with him?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/19/chase-hironimus-circumcision-_n_6904124.html

[Recursion]

2. The background is a couple using their 4yo son as a political football during a messy divorce

This whole episode is pretty shameful, on both sides. Though it at least gives the anti-circumcision people the vapors, which is generally amusing.

[SusanCalvin]

3. Well,

I'm an anti-circumcision person, so I guess I have the vapors. If an adult wants to do it, knock yourself out.

I'm not male, but I can tell you I'd have been forever resentful of my parents if they had mutilated me when I was too young to give informed consent.

[geek tragedy]

4. Circumcised men are not 'mutilated' nt

[SusanCalvin]

5. If you say so.

My husband is circumcised. I didn't know men weren't made that way until well into my adult years.

I still say if my parents did it to me and I realized it, I would be PISSED.

[geek tragedy]

6. I do. nt

[SusanCalvin]

7. Just for the record,

Please see edit to my previous post.

And I'm fully aware Bernie is Jewish, and I adore him. Doesn't mean I have to agree with every religious convention, of any religion. I don't even know if Bernie is a religious Jew or an ethnic Jew, and I don't care.

[Luminous Animal]

14. Yes they are. The procedure results in irreparable damage

I've been mutilated. Ive had my left breast cut off for therapeutic reasons, The fact that I made that choice doesn't negate I've been mutilated.

Infants, on the other hand, cannot make a choice to be irreparably damaged.

[geek tragedy]

16. "Irreparable damage"

[Luminous Animal]

22. Please tell me your procedure for bringing that foreskin back.

You were born with it. Presumably, it was cut off. Thus irreparable. You can't imagine life with it because you barely had it. You were never, presumably, given the choice for any reasonable reason.

[geek tragedy]

28. No damage. Had they removed my appendix I would feel the same way.

Maybe they did, for all I know.

Are women "irreparably damaged" when they lose their hymen?


That's how stupid this argument is.

[F4lconF16]

56. Haha, laugh it up.

I'm missing a part of my penis I wish was there because of an irreversible decision my parents made when I was born. That should not be allowed.

It's that simple.

[Scootaloo]

8. I'm not so much "anti-circumcision"...

so much as I am "anti-cosmetic surgery on infants and toddlers for the aesthetic gratification of their parents."

If an adult wants to sculpt their dick, point their ears, file their teeth, cover themselves in tattoos, or turn their lips into jumpropes, then that's their call, as consenting adults who - we must assume - know what they'e doing. Doing it to your kid because you think the child would look better that way is a violation of that person's autonomy.

[Recursion]

9. I have more sympathy to that view

Though the STD reduction numbers still make me think it's a legitimate medical decision for parents to make.

[SusanCalvin]

11. Link? (Not being snarky, seriously interested) nt

[Recursion]

12. Here you go

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

Male circumcision reduces heterosexual HIV transmission rates by about 60%.

[joshcryer]

23. "high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence"

ie, in countries that have lack of basic clean water and proper hygiene culture. It's not effective in the developed world. And for a 4 year old to undergo this procedure is pretty reprehensible.

[geek tragedy]

34. Yeah, the issue is the age not the merits of the procedure.

Do it as a newborn or not at all.

[Lancero]

13. Here's one

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pdf/prevention_research_malecircumcision.pdf

[Scootaloo]

15. I don't think that's a very valid argument

If you're schlepping without protection, you're going to get an infection, whether you'r cut or not. While scientifically interesting, it is practically pointless. Snipping the tip is not going to keep your kid from catching diseases.

Second, by the time your child is going to be poking that thing anywhere, he's probably (hopefully) going to be old enough to make up his mind whether he wants to snip or not. he can weigh the pros and cons about altering his own body and work from there.

It's also an inherently silly argument. You don't hear anyone promoting preemptive appendectomies, even though doing so would greatly reduce chances for appendicitis. I've never heard of children having surgery done to remove the bud cells that will produce breasts, thus managing to evade breast cancer decades down the line.

[geek tragedy]

18. Asdf

http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision

During a circumcision, the foreskin is freed from the head of the penis, and the excess foreskin is clipped off. If done in the newborn period, the procedure takes about five to 10 minutes. Adult circumcision takes about one hour. The circumcision generally heals in five to seven days.



There is some evidence that circumcision has health benefits, including:

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of some sexually transmitted diseases in men.
Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).
Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean..

[Scootaloo]

21. And when performed on an adult, there is consent from the person receiving the procedure

when performed on a child, there is no consent from that person.

[geek tragedy]

25. As is the case for all medical decisions regarding kids.

I did not get to choose whether to be vaccinated for rubella.

[Scootaloo]

27. Foreskins are not an airborne communicable disease with high infant mortality

Though that would be an interesting album cover for a punk band.

[geek tragedy]

35. Parents make medical decisions for their kids.

Doctors recommend circumcision.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/08/27/159955340/pediatricians-decide-boys-are-better-off-circumcised-than-not


Like vaccination, it benefits the individual and society as a whole by reducing transmission of various diseases.

[Scootaloo]

40. Rubella is a childhood disease, caught and transmitted by infant and toddlers

Thus the necessity of vaccinating them as soon as they can withstand the vaccination. The disease is highly communicable, and airborne, so any other person they come into contact with can, and probably will catch the disease if they are not vaccinated. The disease has a high infant mortality rate and can cause still births, even in vaccinated women as their babies, in uteru, are not vaccinated. In other adults it cna lead to blindness, deafness,

There is only one way to receive a STD from a toddler, and I think the less time we spend mulling that over, the better.

Our society also understands such things as prophylactics, and you know - consent. A woman (or guy, obviously_ is freeto decide if they prefer a circumcised partner or not, and refuse to sleep with someone who doesn't meet that standard.

[geek tragedy]

41. Toddlers grow up to be adults with sex lives.

I'm pretty sure the medical researchers who found these health benefits to be established as a matter of medical science are aware of condoms, much like global warming researchers are familiar with the sun.

[geek tragedy]

46. I will go with what pediatricians recommend. nt

[Scootaloo]

51. And I will go with what ethics demand

[Hekate]

30. Cervical cancer rates were known to be much lower among people with historically higher circumcision

....practices, i. e. Jewish and Muslim . My brothers were born in 1948 and 1957, and my mother gave that information to me as her reason for having them circumcised at birth. My mother was raised Catholic, btw.

Nobody knew what caused cervical cancer all that time ago, but apparently some studies existed showing a strong correlation.

The early information was correct. Cervical cancer is essentially caused by a virus that is an STD.

[840high]

54. We are Catholic - both

grandsons circumcised.

[SusanCalvin]

10. Bingo. nt

[geek tragedy]

17. The decision is pretty much made one way or the other by the parent.

If they leave it there during infancy, it's there to stay.

[Scootaloo]

19. And the person with the foreskin can have it removed if he wants to

For aesthetics, religion, conveniance, whatever reason he wants. The key is he's the one making the call.

[geek tragedy]

20. It's a much more difficult, complicated, and painful procedure for an adult.

The health benefits outweigh the risks.

[Scootaloo]

24. And the adult will be weighing those benefits and risks and coming to his own decision

I travel in circles with people who aren't shy about body modification. Ever seen someone undergoing scarification? It's painful and has high risk of bad infection if you don't take care of the raw wounds.

I know a dude who had his glans bifurcated. It looks like a little piglet's foot. I'm not exactly sure what his reason for it is, but there it is, and he elected to have it done. I don't even want to know what sort of care that took.

removal of a foreskin is nothing, if someone wants to get rid of it. The point is it ought to be their consenting, informed decision, and not one made for them.

[geek tragedy]

26. Nice academic argument, but not one that has much meaning to

the vast majority of men.

[Scootaloo]

32. If you want it done, you can have it done

The key there is, of course if you want. If you don't want it done, it's wrong to force it on you.

[geek tragedy]

33. Again, illusory choice.

Reality is that it's not an option for men for psychological and pain reasons.



It is the right decision based on the health of the boy.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/08/27/159955340/pediatricians-decide-boys-are-better-off-circumcised-than-not

[Scootaloo]

36. All cosmetic surgery hurts and requires some psychological adaptation

it still gets done, with great regularity, by people who want it done. They decide, for themselves, that thebenefits outweigh the risks, and they have the procedure done.

[geek tragedy]

37. It's not cosmetic surgery. There are clear public health benefits

as well as clear individual health benefits.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/08/27/159955340/pediatricians-decide-boys-are-better-off-circumcised-than-not

The academy's task force spent seven years combing through the latest research, analyzing more than a thousand studies. Their conclusion?

For starters, Blank says, circumcision helps baby boys pretty much immediately.

"The health benefits of male circumcision include a drop in the risk of urinary tract infection in the first year of life by up to 90 percent," she says.

But there's a much bigger reason to do it, Blank said. Circumcised males are far less likely to get infected with a long list of sexually transmitted diseases.

"It drops the risk of heterosexual HIV acquisition by about 60 percent. It drops the risk of human papillomavirus [HPV], herpes virus and other infectious genital ulcers," she says.

It also reduces the chances that men will spread HPV to their wives and girlfriends, protecting them from getting cervical cancer.

"We've reviewed the data and, you know, we have gone through them with a fine-tooth comb, and the data are pretty convincing," she says.

[Scootaloo]

42. It is cosmetic surgery, Geek

And I'm sorry, but clearly circumcision is no panacaea to STD's - the vast majority of american men are circumcised, and it's not as if our nation is even remotely STD-free. There are more effective and vastly less invasive methods of combating the spread of STD's. have ou ever heard of a condom? They're actually one of the more popular sexually-related inventions.

[geek tragedy]

45. And if they never had non-monogamous sex at all there would be zero STDs!

Any time you start using the same logic as the abstinence-only crowd in order to attack medical science, you've lost the argument.

[Scootaloo]

49. Too bad that's not my argument, Geek. But nice straw man

It needs to be elective, decided by the individual in question, just like any other body modification. It's an issue of consent.

[Dragonfli]

29. I've been told informed consent is an important part of medical ethics

It appears that some posters view such notions as "quaint" or perhaps simply a waste of time and/or verbal energy.

[davidpdx]

47. I don't know the details, but the fact that he is being used by two parents

in a divorce is troubling. That poor kid is going to need counseling with parents like that.

[Hekate]

31. You state that you are not sure of the accuracy of this info, but we should all contact the hospital

....regardless.

[Bonobo]

38. Not sure DOXing is what DU wants to be known for. This should be deleted or hidden. nt

[Hekate]

39. Not sure what DOXing is...?

[Bonobo]

43. Here

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doxing

Doxing is a technique of tracing someone or gather information about an individual using sources on the internet. Its name is derived from “Documents” or “Docx”. Doxing method is based purely on the ability of the hacker to recognize valuable information about his target and use this information to his benefit. It is also based around the idea that, “The more you know about your target, the easier it will be to find his or her flaws”
Well yeah, he is saying he is doxing me and he talked about one of my youtube channels (he's never talked to me before)

[Hekate]

48. Ah yes, Internet stalking is a well known technique among anti-choice terrorists. They like to...

....publish doctors' and nurses' home addresses, children's names, children's schools, and the like.

I just didn't know it by that name, but I don't like to see it employed by fanatics of any stripe. Did anyone alert on the OP?

[Bonobo]

50. I did.

It is encouraging vigilantism. I don't like it.

[Hekate]

52. Good call

I remember one thread several years ago where posters claimed male sexuality was irreparably damaged. I referred them to 6,000 years of male Jews happily shtupping their wives and making babies.

[Bonobo]

53. I think the "circumcised men are mutilated" angle is particularly bad.

All this alleged sympathy and caring for babies and wanting them to be whole and no thought to how hurtful it is to tell a circumcised man or boy that they are "mutilated"?

Not very empathetic IMO.

[underahedgerow]

55. I can't understand the human obsession with altering and mutilating genitalia.

This is supposed to be a modern world. Unless there is a genuine medical necessity that presents itself, then leave the darned things alone, in both males and females.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Let people make their own decisions about their own bodies.