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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe worst H1-b visa story I've heard so far...
http://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/to-the-point/are-h-1b-visas-costing-american-jobsDisney World brought over 250 or so IT types to be trained by present IT types to take over their jobs.
OK, that's bad enough, and we've heard it before, but they were also forbidden to work for Disney outside contractors for a year.
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Wilms
(26,795 posts)^H_^I^B
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)
clayton72
(135 posts)Let me bullet point this...
1) Racism is wrong. It's hard to talk about this issue without some expression of racism coming up and it makes me sick.
2) We want all able bodied US born citizens having well paying jobs.
3) We want as many jobs being done in the US, not outsourced to foreign countries.
4) We want the world's best and brightest to come work for us and not compete against us in the global market place. The H1-B program is a secret weapon in world competitiveness.
5) Once we have the best and brightest here, we want to keep them here so the knowledge and industry stays here. We need immigration reform now that will keep the talent and jobs here.
6) There aren't enough qualified people in the US without the H1-B program and it's beats the hell out of having those jobs get outsourced due to that lack. We need to increase education funding and encourage our young people to study STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math). We need to encourage our best and brightest to excel regardless of gender, color, or origin.
There will come a day, and it won't be long, when shipping costs will become prohibitive to outsourcing and reduce global trade. We need to get the talent and resources in our borders, permanently, before the music stops. We need to be greedy when it comes to genius.
Parting thought: We'd never have made it to the moon if we hadn't siphoned off Europe's talent following WWII.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)and the visas aren't the basic problem.
The problem is the abuse of the visas
TM99
(8,352 posts)Points 2 through 4 speak to domestic economic agendas.
Point 1 is wrong. Those who speak out against this are NOT all guilty of racism.
Point 5 is definitely wrong. There are more than enough qualified US STEM graduates. The problem is that fucking companies like Disney don't want to pay what they are and should be worth. So replace them with H1-B workers who are cheaper in all ways to pay and maintain.
Your parting thought is inaccurate as well. Those scientists from Europe that helped in the space program were often refugees from Nazi overrun countries.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)laid off and asked to train their H1B replacement before they go. The corps want the lowest paid employee and treat all workers as replaceable widgets.
Corp I worked for outsourced to India for a couple years but the rework needed to fix stuff finally put an end to that
djean111
(14,255 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)Did you bother to think for 2 seconds about the OP you replied to?
The story isn't called "Disney hired 250 H1-B workers due to shortage". They had the freakin qualified US staff and chose to lay them off in order to replace them with H1-B workers.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)I was hearing that argument way back in 1996. It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)What guarantee does Disney have that the new workers will be better?
None.
Just cheaper.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)Science, Technology, Engineering, ARTS, and Math.
A knowledge and appreciation of the arts helps foster creativity.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... instead of having employers do it illegally the way they've done with unskilled workers for so many years when hiring undocumented workers. And the government's ag subsidies has a double purpose of allowing American ag companies to dump under priced food exports in to south america to force many down there out of work and to sell off their farms because they can't compete against underpriced goods, and subsequently they have to come up here to get work then.
#4 should be corrected to say:
We want the world's best and brightest in our country to work and be paid accordingly to maintain the lead that Silicon Valley had over the rest of the world in employing them for so many years when the tech boom started. The H1-B (and H-2B) is a secret weapon for wealthy bosses and company owners to lower their labor costs GLOBALLY and redistribute the companies profits from added productivity to themselves instead of those who helped produce these products and services. It keeps workers away from their families in other countries, and has money shipped out of the economy where it is being earned instead of infusing economic growth in that (OUR) economy. Ultimately TEMPORARY workers from H-1B will help build the intellectual infrastructure of newer high tech capitals like Bangalore instead of building up the intellectual capital of Silicon Valley as people return home from their TEMPORARY H-1B Visa jobs here.
#5 Add to the end that:
H-1B and H-2B jobs are TEMPORARY and don't accomplish this goal, and that we should emphasize different immigration mechanisms for these workers that provides them the ability to compete on an equal playing field for jobs here, and ENCOURAGES them to become American citizens the way our country has traditionally welcomed immigrants.
#6 should be corrected to say:
Smart American kids going to college here realize that the cost of college is so high now here, AND the liklihood that high tech jobs from a tech education will be either outsourced through free trade deal expansion, or be less available or underpaid due to H-1B programs, and choose intelligently instead to seek careers that are more rewarding and less apt to be outsourced in these fashions in fields such as law and in some forms of medical care (NOT radiology). If you want kids to pursue high tech careers, it is not enough to just make education cheaper (Indian nationals get bachelor degree educations for FREE there), but to also ensure that their jobs won't be outsourced to lower paid H-1B workers or jobs on foreign soil when free trade allows such "race to the bottom" exploitation.
Add #7:
Items 1-3 are not helped AT ALL by outsourcing through free trade deals, or by expanding H-1B or H-2B programs, and don't belong in any kind of justification for these kinds of programs.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's not complicated at all. Most H1B visa holders were educated here in the US. "Americans don't have the right skills?" Of course they don't; foreign (gasp! you racist!) students occupy all the relevant university classes. Why would a college admit a citizen to pay resident tuition when the foreign student will pay more?
Want to fix this problem? Curtail education visas.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Many in India get their bachelor's degree subsidized and free in India, and then in order to be better qualified here in the U.S. with an American degree they just have to invest in getting a graduate degree here. American students on the other hand have a hard enough time being able to afford paying for a bachelor's degree without huge debt, especially if their jobs are outsourced through F'd up "free trade deals" like the TPP or H-1B "guest labor" programs.
The system is RIGGED folks! And if you vote for people in favor of legislation like the TPA and TPP, as well as increasing quotas on H-1B and H-2B programs, you DESERVE to lose your job! Demand otherwise and work more towards organizing labor worldwide! That will help reign in the corporate crooks ultimately.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Somehow, I think not.
250 qualified disney employees, fired after being forced to train their H1-B replacements.
What the fuck?
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)posting canned bull$hit on DU again.
treestar
(82,383 posts)H-1B employers have to pay the same wage. It's the law. There are limited numbers of H-1Bs. And if that's true, they should report to the Department of Labor to have those employers fined and put on a list of employers no longer allowed to have H-1Bs. The whole system is set up not to lose Americans any jobs. There are some people who think their wages would go up if there were no H-1Bs, yet they are wrong. H-1Bs are not allowed where they would negatively affect the job market for Americans.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)It is naive to jump on the bandwagon. Do research on the law.
djean111
(14,255 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)prosecute. They never want to do so. Why? If someone committed any other violation of US regulations that would be no problem.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Somewhere out on YouTube, there is a film that corporations use that teaches them how to successfully get around all that inconvenient department of labor stuff.
Are you seriously saying that Disney needed to replace their entire IT department because of anything but money issues?
Oh, and my big telecom company has outsourced most of its IT work, and brought in H-1B visas on top of that. Because it save them money. I got a contract working there, after my original job was sent to Mumbai. Went through a very pissed-off contracting firm that my (Indian) manager told me to use - he pre-approved me because he liked my work - and yeah, the hourly wage was $20 below what that job used to pay, and they could get rid of you at any time. And some of the H-1B visa guys I worked with were really smart, and some should never have been in IT, couldn't understand the product (DSL) even with charts and repeated explanations, and the concept of creating test data and plans was beyond them.
And, while I am at it - I have seen racism flung around. As if Americans would have been thrilled to hand their jobs over to Italians or Swiss or Brazilian or Danish people. That's just a stupid stupid thing to accuse people of. Think it through.
treestar
(82,383 posts)You don't need a lawyer. A violation of a regulation can be reported and the DOL prosecutes.
Quit pretending the laws are not what they are. If an employer tried to pay less than minimum wage, tried to make people work too many hours as not allowed by law, or discriminated, you advocate not reporting that to the Department of labor at all? This is the same as those.
Lawyers take cases on contingency and this type of case they'd take that way, as the victim could claim damages.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)gd770226
(35 posts)I have to say that you are being very naïve about the H1B's and thinking that there are no violations going on. The law does not protect American workers at all.
I lost my job of 17 years to H1B workers. The company hired them before I was let go. And that right there is the catch. Once they are hired H1B's are treated just like any other worker. I was let go and there was nothing I could do about it. They did not have to let the H1B's go before me. My seniority didn't matter. I spoke with a lawyer and was told there was nothing I could do. I would suspect that is why you always here that the story is the H1B's come on board and are trained by the existing workers. Then they call it a "reorganization" and the non H1B's lose their job.
That is how the system works and why it is bad.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)btw, nothing on this earth will make the poster you are replying to change his mind on anything
Ilsa
(64,354 posts)know well in the field, the H-1b visa employees are frequently not up to the job, and have cultural workplace issues to overcome.
Elwood P Dowd
(11,453 posts)
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)I managed 108 people that were outsource The company hires the workers as Consultants not employees. They are not responsible for what these people are paid, the consulting firm is. here are always ways around it. When i tracked the work through projects the people hired did not have the competency to do work (we are not talking abut special skills but the work as an application programmer. When I complained to the president of the division I was told to shut up, they didn't care, I just had to get the work done with my new incompetent staff. They didn't care that they were not perfect because the stock would go up the next quarter (stock options being the biggest money maker) - all they ever cared about was the next quarter, screw the future.
Ihvae worked with some competent and quick learning individual H1B people (who still took an American job and worked for less money) and I have worked with the ones from the Indian consulting firms. The consulting firms would falsify the experience of the person they were presenting, it did not take me long to find the lies. eventually, they sold off our division, but it failed not too long after that because of a crappy reputation. I know that when I was leaving, I got a call from one of my clients (clients not to talk directly to IT, but they saw my name on a list and they started calling since the reps could not convey what the clients needed). Anyway he wanted to know why I could not stay on, told him to talk to management, I was laid off.
H1B visas are fine if they are used as they are supposed to be, but we don't need more of them. But that is not what is happening, People are just being replaced by cheaper workers because they can be.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Of course there are lawyers out there that are saying that they will hear complaints about H-1B visa employment issues and do class action lawsuits on them...
http://www.lieffcabraser.com/Case-Center/H1B-Visa-Worker-Rights.shtml
... But then, as noted by this ruling where many class action lawsuits by consumers and employees now have to go through more corporate controlled "arbitration hearings" where the deck is stacked against them...
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/28/business/la-fi-court-class-action-20110428
We are becoming a corporate fascist state, and this job program is just another example of its control!
appalachiablue
(44,010 posts)of H-1B visa workers and a group whose members, Disney Chairman Robert Iger, Mike Bloomberg and Rupert Murdoch are working to overhaul immigration laws and INCREASE H-1B visas.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6801934
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I worked briefly for a white-shoes DC law firm whose objective for their clients was subversion of H1B regulation through loopholes and litigation.
Why? To maximize profitability. How? Because the only person who has standing legally to challenge abuses of H1B visas are the visa-holders (who always agree to work for less money than a domestic employee...and that's exactly the point for the employer) who refuse to challenge the abuses because...quelle surprise...some asshole like my boss works to get them deported when they do.
The H1B program is bad. If our priorities were right as a party...ending the H1B program would be second only to Taft-Hartley repeal on the economic side of the ledger. Those two moves do more to empower the American worker and shift the profits of their labor back to the workers than anything else...including a minimum-wage increase. (Which we also need.)
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)not less? With no guarantee that this labor is better?
again
peacebird
(14,195 posts)The H1Bs I worked with were nice folks living 4or5 to an apartment because their wages were so far below mine.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... and have seen the kind of ways these "rules" are worked around and continue to have loopholes left for employers to exploit.
I remember mid level managers LAUGHING when they hired H-1B visa workers from "body shops" back in the 90's, because even with this stipulation you mentioned, these body shops only hired H-1B visa contractors, and therefore managed to compare salaries only between H-1B workers, not equivalent American workers. They were able to get quite a bit more for their money when they hired in this fashion.
And they also hired workers in to big companies as SERVICES not CONTRACTORS in those days, so that those American workers working in those firms couldn't compare salaries that were paid, as the hiring companies only paid for "services" and not temporary "employees" where the latter would imply salary amounts.
They have different ways of working around these rules today too, but there are always loopholes, and they are always used, and THAT is why H-1B program is used so much. It is not just to hire people with certain qualifications that Americans don't have here. It is only rare cases where you need persons potentially with different language skills doing localization of software, etc. that also need good certain sets of tech skills, that might legitimately be considered as candidates for what the H-1B program was set to address initially.
The demand for those workers is very low, and doesn't need to be expanded. And employers with those needs should be willing to pay for HIGHER salaries, not lower salaries to get workers with these skill set combinations.
appalachiablue
(44,010 posts)
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)The DOL letter points out that even H-1B-dependent employers (which includes most IT services firms) with more than 15% of their workforce on temporary visas, "are not prohibited from displacing U.S. workers if they pay the H-1B workers at least $60,000 per year or the workers have a relevant master's degree."
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2914840/it-outsourcing/labor-department-says-it-cant-investigate-so-cal-edisons-h-1b-use.html
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)The issue isn't what the law says -- it's how it's being misused.
You need to do more research before telling other people they are wrong about this. H1b visas are being misused to replace experienced tech workers with new workers doing the exact same jobs.
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html
Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India. Some employees are training their H-1B visa holding replacements, and many have already lost their jobs.
The employees are upset and say they can't understand how H-1B guest workers can be used to replace them.
The IT organization's "transition effort" is expected to result in about 400 layoffs, with "another 100 or so employees leaving voluntarily," SCE said in a statement. The "transition," which began in August, will be completed by the end of March, the company said.
"They are bringing in people with a couple of years' experience to replace us and then we have to train them," said one longtime IT worker. "It's demoralizing and in a way I kind of felt betrayed by the company."
SCE, Southern California's largest utility, has confirmed the layoffs and the hiring of Infosys, based in Bangalore, and Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) in Mumbai. They are two of the largest users of H-1B visas.
SNIP
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)What is *supposed to be* and what actually *is* are worlds apart.
"Untrue stories"? Oh that's a rich one.
Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
quickesst
(6,309 posts)I say, quit whining, and do what a lot of us blue collar workers had to do. Find another line of work, even if it's not what you trained for, and pays less than what you were getting. Just cut corners, lower your standards, get over it, and look on the bright side. You won't be labeled as being racist unfairly for wanting to deny "poor brown people the opportunity to make a better life for their families."
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Quite often it gets me chuckling too, I know just what you are talking about.
quickesst
(6,309 posts)I don't want anyone to lose their job. I loved mine, and I literally put blood, sweat, and occasionally, tears into it. It was rewarding to end the day by looking back and seeing something tangible you built with a great sense of satisfaction, and yes, pride. The hard part was, and still is, was talking about your plight to those who have an overwhelming urge to check under their bed every night just to make sure there are no racists hiding there, or someone they can misconstrue as being one. It's a term that is too often thrown about loosely to the detriment of the real battle to end it. There are no points or prizes for the number of times one uses it. But, there is great reward for those who use it justly.
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)Our young people are constantly being told that their lives will improve if they just get an education; no, not just an education -- a STEM education. Most of them don't, so they blame themselves for the way their lives are going.
What they don't know but WE do is that even getting a solid tech education offers very little protection in the new world of work.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)But no one listens to olds, they are stuck in the past and don't know anything.
There's a lot of times I have to choose between laughing and crying, laughing is healthier IMO.
AwakeAtLast
(14,315 posts)I have the same worries. 
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)Their dad has been in IT all his working life, and has faced many layoffs due to outsourcing, etc. etc, for about the past 20 years.
We've told our four to chart their own paths. Follow their passions. Do what interests them, not what they're being told to do to make money. Money is not the be-all, end-all, as long as the life you live is comfortable by your standards. As a result, my oldest just graduated with a BFA and has had her works shown in regional galleries and has traveled to New York to study with accomplished artists (she's taking a year or so off before she pursues an MFA to get even more work in her portfolio and in museums), and my next-oldest is a history major who's thinking about becoming a visiting professor (instead of tenured) once he gets his degree(s). (The other two are early in high school and still trying to figure things out.)
In short, we've told them to find their own happiness, which money really can't buy in the first place. I'm confident they will succeed. (Maybe not by Wall Street's standards, but so what.)
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)That is what we are losing every day for the last decade or two in terms of our intellectual capital. They work in medicine, law, or other fields instead that are less likely to be outsourced overseas or with "guest workers" coming here through crap like H-1B.
Until we stop this and other forms of outsourcing enablement, and have companies pay what they should for people living in this society with these skill sets, our country is going to continue to see the high tech industry moved overseas to other countries that both keep their salaries low, and subsidize their kids educations like India, and build their intellectual capital when H-1B visa workers come back from their "stint" here and build up places like Bangalore to take over the position in the world as high tech capitol from Silicon Valley.
And they probably also love that the money sent back from H-1B visa employees to their families back in India invigorates THEIR economy and not ours! So much for job stimulus with hiring people here when their money goes overseas instead of staying here!
If we offered them a path to citizenship and full participation in our society, then I bet they bring their families here and our intellectual investment gets made here, and their money also builds up our economy too!
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... and workers that had to sue for their conditions as even worse slave conditions of this program!
http://www.thenation.com/blog/198665/these-workers-came-overseas-help-rebuild-after-hurricane-katrina-and-were-treated-prison
When it will stop is when Korporate Amerika turns us all in to complete slave labor!
TheFarseer
(9,769 posts)How can they get away with this when they laid off Americans that were doing the job?!
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)Trouble is, you get what you pay for.
gd770226
(35 posts)What I don't get is how certain job adds are even legal. I just did a quick search on indeed for "H1B" in my area and here is a small sample of what came up. How can they say the are specify that they want OPT candidates? Is that not excluding US citizens. I really hate this stuff:
Hiring OPT/CPT Candidates
redcode Informatics - Princeton, NJ
We are currently Hiring OPT/CPT for Various Technology backgrounds.
We also provide Free Training for right consultants.
IT Consulting
We are an E-Verified IT Consulting & Staffing Services Company located in Princeton,NJ. We sponsor/process H1B Visa & Green Cards.
Salary: $70,000.00 /year
Note: We don't play any tricks with our employees and are very transparent in what we do.
Salary: $70,000.00 /year
and then this one :
Java Developer hibernate, spring, maven,full stack
Jersey Shore Development - Neptune City, NJ
We are seeking talented java programmers with productive and professional coding abilities. Our company is a front runner in a niche market. The Market size that we participate in is 38 billion dollars.
Our company located just 1 mile from the beach promotes a strong personal and family life . We have work hours in the office of 8 am til 5 pm with a one hour lunch
We offer 2 weeks vacation after 1 year
We contribute to health Insurance
Seeking highly skilled full stack software developers
Send your resume complete with address and telephone number, email address
This is what you must know:
Eclipse
SVN
Maven
.jsp
Java
Hibernate
Spring
mobile
CSS
HTML
Javascript
PHP
Jquery
Ajax
Presentation skills and printed review of all code is required.
Must have an excellent command of the English language
You will be fixing existing code
You will be tested before hiring on your capabilities. There is a 2 week trial period. We require referencencses
We are willing to sponsor for H1b visa for the right candidate after proving your ability.
We welcome students on Opt and CPT status.
Salary: $60,000.00 /year
Required experience:
software development, web design, mobile development: 2 years
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)I know someone who was laid off, and part of his severance agreement was he couldn't work for any contracting firm that the company deals with for at least a year.
Doesn't mean this is any less infuriating. I can't imagine having to stay and train your replacement (with the proverbial smile on your face and song on your lips), or having to travel overseas to do it (I know a person in that situation, too). If you don't, no severance -- and you're even more screwed.
TexasBushwhacker
(21,199 posts)if the worker is terminated.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)People should be able to pursue employment wherever they choose once they leave a company.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)If you don't think American workers do their jobs well enough, fine. Hire foreigners, even bring them in to the US. But pay them the same wages, give them the same benefits, let them unionize, and offer them a path to citizenship. Make them Americans.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I just want not to have H1Bs being a dodge to depress wages industrywide, just another way to 'race to the bottom' for labour.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)They don't like the "indentured servant" conditions that they have to work on and dealing with the "guest houses" which I PERSONALLY witnessed when I lived in the bay area in the apartment right next door to me that is described in this report, and where they talk to an H-1B employee about what he doesn't like about it as well!
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/Silicon-Valleys-Body-Shop-Secret-280567322.html
For those out there who say all of us who have problems with this program are just xenophobic in our wish to push out foreign workers, you really don't know us either.
I moved to the west coast from the midwest partially because I WANTED a more diverse community to work in. Some of my best friends are immigrants from places like India and Iran. I'm arguing against this program, because it works against them as much as it works against us to serve fattening the profits of the wealthy and powerful. We should all be for shutting down H-1B, H-2B, and other similar "guest worker" programs that gives employers the ability to hire people in the same way they would have hired undocumented workers without being criminally liable for doing so. But in addition, we should be looking to globally organize labor so that there is no "bottom" that the wealthy and powerful can race to to force slave labor conditions to their benefit and not pay attention to the welfare of the environment and the communities they have factories in. If we work together, we have a better chance of stopping this mess for the benefit of all!
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)Corporations have corrupted the concept because they found they can get away with paying very little (compared to industry standards), offering no benefits, and treating people like garbage. Work suffers, but then you can bring in other workers (often American workers, go figure) to fix it (and the fixes often end up costing more, as usual when something isn't done right the first time).
And it's not just H1B workers. For many years I did contract work and was pretty much treated the same way.
Complicit in this too are the consulting firms that bring the workers to the employers. This whole business model needs to be looked into and regulated. My family has been dealing with this bullshit since about 1993. It sucks, never knowing when you're going to be replaced.