As a Hillary supporter, and for the record

[Gman]

I entirely agree that Sanders is electable. His message is what stirred OWS that was shut down so brutally because of the huge threat it posed to the powers that be. His message is what resonates so deeply these days. Sanders has exactly the message to win.

I think Hillary is by far, the most qualified, but I don't think in any way that Sanders is unqualified.

So I'll support Hillary until the time comes I have to support Sanders or whoever else is the Democratic nominee. And I will.

That is all.

[SamKnause]

1. Hello.

I do not wish to start a fight with you.

I do not wish to insult you.

I do not understand how you can listen to Hillary and Bernie

but then choose to back Hillary.

Bernie's progressive agenda is solid going back decades.

Hillary's is not.

I am truly confused as to why Hillary supporters are not on the

Bernie bandwagon.

[Evergreen Emerald]

2. Hello

I do now wish to insult you. I do not understand how you can listen to Hillary and Bernie but then choose to back Bernie.

Hillary's solid progressive agenda, experience, and dedication to women and children goes back decades. Bernie's does not.

I am truly confused as to why Bernie supporters are not on the Hillary bandwagon.

[Scootaloo]

4. "Bernie's does not"?

Are you perhaps getting confused with a Bernard Sanderson, 28, who manages a 7-11 near Tulsa?

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. "Hillary does not?"

Perhaps the poster was referring to Hillary Duff from the Disney Channel?

[Scootaloo]

6. So because the poster you're responding to is wrong, you need to be wrong too?

[Evergreen Emerald]

7. I am not wrong

And I do not want to argue with you. Have a nice day.

[ieoeja]

42. Sanders has been working on racial and gender issues since the mid-60s.

Hillary has worked on these issues since the 1970s. You said he has not. So you were right about Hillary, but wrong about Bernie.

Sanders has worked on economic equality since the mid-60s. The issues Hillary has supported for decades have made the problem worse. So the poster to whom you were responding is correct on both Hillary and Bernie.

[okasha]

68. Women's and children's rights,

LGBT rights, accessible healthcare, voting rights, etc. "has made the problem worse?"

You want to 'splain that?

[SamKnause]

8. Hillary voted for the Iraq war,

Bernie did not.

How many women and children were killed in the Iraq war ???

Bernie has never voted for a Free Trade agreement.

Hillary helped with drafting the TPP.

Bernie is against the TPP.

Hillary is taking super pac money.

Bernie is not.

[George II]

41. And here we go again - Clinton did NOT vote for the Iraq war. Just because...

....bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld misapplied the AUMF for their own purposes and lied the the United Nations (did you see Colin Powell's performance there?), the American people, AND the unwitting Colin Powell does NOT mean that anyone, even the most hawkish of Senators, voted for the Iraq war by voting for the AUMF.

[Springslips]

50. That argument does not hold water, never did.

The democrats including Clinton voted for the war simply because they are week and cynical. They did not want to see an easy Bush victory causing a surge of patriotism while having a no vote on the record to use against them in elections. They figured that if it went wrong that the Bush gang would be to blame. To them the political selfish decision was simple. A yes vote played it save. This is the mark against Clinton, and it is a convincing criticism; she has no real position on issues except for what will advance her goals.

The AUMF argument is absurd to buy into. It is a weasely agrument for the pro-war dems to make. It only works when one swallows a whole bottle of cognitive dissonance. It is obviously fense sitting of the most ridiculous kind: war turns popular they can say they voted for it; war turns badly they can say the only authorized war under certain conditions promised by the admin. It like handing the keys to a drunk that promises not to drive; if you don't want him/ her to drive, don't hand over the keys!

The argument really blows up when dems say they want an office to oppose republican agendas. "Vote for me and I'll fight them." Good. But then I see they went along with repubs on the AUMF based on a promise. What? How can I be confident that they'll fight the GOP when all the GOP has to do is to make a promise to get them on their side? It can be framed, if you accept the AUMF argument, that they are way too nieve to be an effective opposition. I mean like Nigerian lottery nieve.

These are questions I have that Clinton will need to answer more clearly before she can win my vote. It will be a hard thing, because I have lots of questions regarding that particular war and the votes that went along with it.

[okasha]

69. Democrats="they?"

This is a discussion board for Democrats.

[Springslips]

79. They a pronoun substitute for

The espousers of the argument. I could had typed the "the espousers of the argument" but previous generations had come up with the pronoun 'they' to make language more efficient. Google pronouns and 'they' for more education on this useful bit of lsnguage.

[rock]

57. I tend to agree with you

The vote was so w could make a quick decision and use military action (ha). This supposedly would give him negotiation strength(ha- ha). And it was propped up by tons of lies. In any case, Hillary did not vote for war. Also I may add, that Hillary thought she made a mistake but in that she was mistaken; she delivered the best vote she could given what she was told. Now I, holding no office. and thereby having no responsibilities said, "He's lying. Don't do a thing he wants." But like I say it was easy for me, I had already decided if w's lips were moving, he was lying and if they weren't moving he was thinking of the next lie that he would tell.

[okasha]

51. Sanders voted for the AUMF.

He has voted for every single bill to continue to fund the Iraq war.

He has helped throw a trillion and a half dollars down the black hole of the F-35 fighter to create a limited number of jobs in Vermont.

How many young adults ( and older ones too) would that obscene sum of money send to college? How many free clinics would it build and staff?

[George II]

54. There were two "AUMF"s, one just three days after the September 11 attacks...

...and one in October, 2002.

The first one was passed with only one vote against, Rep. Barbara Lee. It authorized military force against "terrorists", not Iraq.

The second one is the one that was used to justify the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Representative Sanders voted against it.

There were provisions in that AUMF that certain criteria must be met before we were to go to war, and certain criteria that Iraq had to meet in order to avoid war. Iraq complied with all those, yet bush still invaded.

[okasha]

60. The first AUMF authorized the invasion of Afghanistan.

The second, which is usually called the IWR, (Iraq War Resolution&quot supported action against Saddam Hussein IF the UN inspectors found WMD's. Bush disregarded the "if" and invaded anyway. The bad faith was on his part.

[George II]

62. Right, I read the title quickly for the first, knowing it basically had nothing to do with Iraq.....

....and Sanders voted for that one, as did 500+ other legislators.

Thanks for agreeing about the second one - THAT is the one that supported, in a word, "action" against Iraq if WMDs were found. None were but bush invaded anyway and, as we found out a couple of years and thousands of lives later, they didn't exist.

So, the bottom line is that Clinton et. al., did not vote for the Iraq war, they voted for something completely different but it was extrapolated by bush (or some other people, bush wasn't smart enough!) to mean he could conduct an all-out invasion of Iraq.

Maybe the biggest blunder in American foreign policy history - and what he did was NOT authorized by Congress.

[okasha]

66. Absolutely correct.

That was Bush's debacle. He even had to lie to his own Cabinet, including Colin Powell, to get troops into Iraq.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

61. Hillary talks a big game regarding women's rights, but consistently ignores the plight of women in the Arab world & other places who are raped, mutilated, enslaved etc.

But Hillary - and Bill for her benefit - happily glad-hand with the scumbag leaders of those barbaric countries and accept their $$$ for speeches, conveniently ignoring these pressing women's rights issues and failing to courageously demand (with action!) that they be seriously and expeditiously addressed.

Merely repeating the words "women's rights are human rights" are merely that, words. Such empty rhetoric is something Hillary is quite good at, I'll certainly give her that. But we desperately need LEADERS who "not only talk the talk, but walk the walk."

The other "elephant in the room" is how Hillary has consistently enabled her husband Bill to abuse women, while smearing their reputations. You can choose to ignore Bill's inappropriate sexual behavior, and Hillary's muted response thereto, just because they are Democrats. But, we have FAR better leaders and role models, Bernie among them, whom we can look up to and offer our support in battling the war against women, equal pay for equal work - another Hillary "Achilles Heel" in her failing to fairly compensate women working under her supervision - along with a myriad of other women's rights issues.

As the saying goes: "Talk is cheap; actions speak louder than words." Bernie is a REAL progressive with a pro-women history and agenda for solving these and a whole host of left-leaning issues. You won't see any "Turd Way" triangulation on President Sanders' watch.

Bernie deserves our strong, unwavering support. He certainly has mine!

Go Bernie Go!!!

[okasha]

70. Everything between "Hillary talks

and "Go, Bernie" is disinformation.

Have a nice day.

[MADem]

63. Bernie voted for appropriations that kept the Iraq war going.

And he came to accommodate the military-industrial-congressional complex in order to win the basing of USAF fighter jets in Burlington.

Look into anyone's record and you're gonna find these things. That was lying right on top...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/27/bernie-sanders-cannot-save-us/

[Dawgs]

10. Except for those women and children that died in the Iraq war, I guess.

Or, were you just talking about American women and children?

[okasha]

71. Sanders voted for the bills

that kept the killing funded. If you want to talk bloody hands, his are as bloody as anyone else's.

[Dawgs]

76. LOL! You guys are so funny. n/t

[okasha]

87. Au conttaire.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

81. Dead wrong

Bernie has far longer experience and has an excellent record for every subject and a true progressive.

If I wanted a Third Wayer, I would vote Republican first. I get the real thing instead of a pretender.


Hillary is a long time Third Wayer, the party who has lost every election since 1992. No thanks. Time to go left and stay there.

[Evergreen Emerald]

92. The only time I have ever heard of this

"third wayer" is from you guys. Clinton is a progressive liberal who has made a difference her whole life. You guys are so focused on superficial shit fed to you by RWers that you swarm like gnats on any and every post that has anything to do with Clinton.

What Clinton has done for the citizens of the world surpasses most people's accomplishments. Including Bernie's.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

93. I can tell you this - Hillary Clinton is no progressive liberal

she is a slightly right of center authoritarian

She still has issues, specifically Keystone XL, TPP, and H1B's. She has been often noted as "Senator from New Delhi" when addressing favorably for H1B.

[Evergreen Emerald]

94. You are wrong.

You believe any crap fed to you without doing your own research. That is how people like Koch take over. Because the citizens believe the BS fed to them.

40% of WA state's jobs come from international trade. An agreement to level the playing field would be great for WA...depending on what it says....which is EXACTLY what Clinton has said numerous times. I honestly think a number of you just like to Bitch about Clinton. Your obsession coupled with your unwillingness to listen is...frankly annoying and down right unprogressive.

[Gman]

17. Lets be very clear

I am NOT a progressive. And I differ progresses on several things that I will not go into here. I'm supporting Hillary because I think she is the complete package. But, Sanders has his strong points Too.

[MohRokTah]

3. "the powers that be"

Stopped reading there.

[Fumesucker]

9. You wrote these words just recently

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026806306#post7

You CANNOT have a political party that does not have internal political politics.

This is the nature of ANY political organization at ANY level.

Even a place like DU has the same sort of things going on within the multitude of cliques formed.

Any group of social creatures will have social requirements and politics. It's part of being a social animal.

[MohRokTah]

21. So?

[Dawgs]

11. Why? n/t

[MohRokTah]

22. It's woo.

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. It's an all purpose excuse. n/t

[MohRokTah]

26. Precisely. IF they mean a specific group of people, name the group.

Using "the powers that be" is no different from saying "space aliens", "Bidebergers", "Illuminati" or even "Bogeymen".

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. But everyone knows who TPTB are ...

anyone that disagrees with you with the power/popular support that you don't possess.

[MohRokTah]

29. Same as the Bogeyman, Bildebegers, Illuminati, and Space Aliens. eom

[okasha]

72. And the Priory of Sion.

You forgot that one!

[blm]

12. Common Sense Sanders.

Dems will win 2016. Period. Any of our candidates are FAR superior to GOP's field of fascists.

[dpatbrown]

23. Base

A Dem will win ONLY if there is a very strong turnout from ALL Dems, fascists or not.

[Cryptoad]

39. Koch Bros plan is ,,,,

To invest in making the demo primary a negative bitter fight in hopes of the losing side staying home in the general election,,,

[blm]

49. Yep. Bernie ain't falling for that ploy, and neither will I. The Dem candidate is MY candidate.

Most of us are immune to the RW propaganda machine. Rand2016 operatives can GFT.

[L0oniX]

13. Where is this "the record" being stored and who's in charge of keeping it safe?

[HoosierCowboy]

14. A Sanders/Clinton or Clinton/Sanders Ticket

...will unite the Party. Unlike the Abbot and Costello routine, I don't really care who's on First.

[MADem]

64. No, it won't. Not enough regional variety. nt

[misterhighwasted]

15. Hi & get ready to mark Hillary Clinton for Pres on your ballot in 2016

Of course she will win the primary.

[awoke_in_2003]

75. Just like in 08. nt

[misterhighwasted]

91. Yup and this time our President will be a woman.

First a Dem African American, then a Dem Woman then a Dem Hispanic.

Supreme Court forever will be more reasonable & open minded.
GOP will no longer stack the deck against the true make up of America.

[Dustlawyer]

16. While I disagree as I think her corporate ties make her

unqualified, I can respect your decision. I can live with it and appreciate your post!
Now that wasn't so hard, wish everyone on both sides could discuss differences with issues with a civil tongue! Leave the rudeness to the other Party!

[Gman]

20. There is nothing inherently wrong with corporations

Corporations provide jobs too many tens of millions of people. Corporations provide health care benefits and pensions to tens of millions of people. The problem corporations are the irresponsible One's. Predatory capitalist corporations and others that are socially irresponsible are the problem. There are often post about good companies on DU.

[DFW]

34. Good luck!

I agree with your attitude, but I fear we're in the minority.

[marble falls]

18. We all need to support the nominee whether its Sanders or Clinton. I hope its Sanders.

[dpatbrown]

19. Progressive

In other words, progressives need to vote for the Dem nominee, regardless which of the two win. I completely agree. Instead of pouting and staying home IF Sanders loses, progressives need to assure that there IS NOT a republican is in the White House.

[aintitfunny]

24. As a Bernie supporter, thank you

I recognize that we, as individuals and primarily Democrats, have a choice of candidates. We are fortunate to have less quantity and more quality. There are always reasons behind an individual's candidate selection. I do not feel that I must understand your preference in order to respect it.

I agree that Sanders has the message to win, and that message has won my attention and support. In my view we do need a political revolution to alter the course of this Nation back on the correct path for all of its citizens. There is much to like about Hillary Clinton, I don't have to agree with everything she has ever said or done to acknowledge that and respect her worthy efforts. I will add that Martin O'Malley was a great governor and his campaign also earns my respect.

I will strongly avoid turning my candidate's opponents into the bad guys, since that will only foster resentments and harm our chances in the General Election. Where there are policy differences I will state my opinion, hopefully with reason and without name calling.

I will support the Democratic nominee, no matter my preference during the Primary.

[riqster]

27. I agree with the OP. Just with the names reversed.

Civility is refreshing.

[apnu]

30. Whomever the Dem candidate is, I'm backing them 100%

My math is simple:

Hillary, or Bernie, or a Ficus Plant will be 1000% better than any Republican/Libertarian/Teabagger.

Is Bernie more progressive? Yes!

Will we do very well as a nation under Hillary's leadership? Yes!

[classof56]

33. Well said.

Sums it up for me.

[grahamhgreen]

47. Polls indicate the ficus is smarter than Ted Cruz!

[okasha]

73. And the other

how many is it now? Nineteen?

Time for the Clown Bus.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

82. They just graduated to an Clown Airbus A380

.....and GOP has their buddies loaning one of their jets.

[sabrina 1]

31. Thank you!

[stonecutter357]

32. K&R!

[JackInGreen]

35. noted and thank you

about the same.
I must admit though if I'm forced to vote for a (far far) lesser evil again there's only so much of my soul I can slice off. I will if I must, until then I'll back Bernie.

[marym625]

36. I don't want to fight with you

So I won't.

Nice post

[Oktober]

37. OWS self destructed...

[Gman]

65. I agree

And the " leaderless" was stupid snd contributed to its demise.

[George II]

38. Good job, thanks. And you did that without feeling the need to tear down Sanders - refreshing!

[bullwinkle428]

40. Much appreciated. K&R.

[calimary]

43. Sigh... GUYS!!!! Can we STOP the goddamn PILE-ON???? PLEASE????????????

FOR PETE'S SAKE, guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm afraid the one thing that will start alienating a Hillary supporter like me will be the overly-rabid Bernie Sanders supporters posting contentious shit here. Who mean well, but MAN this is just overkill, guys!!!!

WHY do some of the Bernie supporters have to jump all over some of the Hillary supporters here and try to draw blood all the time?????

You REALLY think you're gonna win some of us over that way????

I'm sorry, guys, but THIS particular OP deserves more respect than that. As I read this (and I'm still a Hillary supporter, for a lot of the same reasons, even though I do like Bernie Sanders), it's a Hillary supporter writing declaring that he will not go home and pout and sit this one out in November 2016 if Bernie Sanders makes it all the way to the nomination. He's declaring that he will be GLAD to support and vote for Bernie! It's a loyal Dem determined to keep the White House in Democratic hands in the most practical way possible, reaching out to the die-hard Bernie Sanders supporters with a sense of true teamwork and generosity, and an olive branch the size of a Giant Sequoia. And yet it provokes the rigidity and animosity that I see here? For God's Sake, WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM, guys?????????????

I feel the same way Gman does. I have voiced that same feeling multiple times here already. And frankly, I search this board looking for the same corresponding sentiments coming back toward me from Bernie Sanders supporters - if they face a Hillary Clinton nomination instead of one for their man. And I don't see a whole hell of a lot of it.

Which is really disappointing! And extremely troubling - when one thinks ahead to the alternative we may all have forced down our throats if all we're doing is piling on each other like this. We'll wind up with a republi-CON taking the White House!!!

I see testimony that too many people on that side ARE willing to stay home and pout and just not vote. Yes. POUT. I also see a lot of "well, I'll hold my nose and vote..." which seems pretty fucking milquetoast if you ask me. And if you ask me that, at this minute, that's the opinion you'll get from me because this is starting to make me angry. You guys expect us to give in and come along. Well, if that situation presents itself, WE can be counted on to do so. Sadly, I'm not so sure we'll be able to count on those in the Bernie camp to do the same thing or even a remotely similar thing. That is TREMENDOUSLY disappointing!!!!

And I don't like being angry at my DU brothers and sisters. BECAUSE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE SAME TEAM AGAINST THE SAME COMMON ENEMY, OKAY???

Alright. Post completed. Flame away.

[jeff47]

53. What pile-on?

Could you quote which posts are the pile-on that you object to? Is any criticism or questioning a "pile-on"?

And could you take a moment to realize that this:

I see testimony that too many people on that side ARE willing to stay home and pout and just not vote. Yes. POUT. I also see a lot of "well, I'll hold my nose and vote..." which seems pretty fucking milquetoast if you ask me. And if you ask me that, at this minute, that's the opinion you'll get from me because this is starting to make me angry. You guys expect us to give in and come along. Well, if that situation presents itself, WE can be counted on to do so. Sadly, I'm not so sure we'll be able to count on those in the Bernie camp to do the same thing or even a remotely similar thing. That is TREMENDOUSLY disappointing!!!!

is exactly what you are railing against?

"We're on the same team, but you fuckers are going to POUT and aren't cheering enough for my favored candidate!"

[dpatbrown]

58. Well said

I'm not sure if it's a generational thing or what. Being a senior, I've seen this attitude too many times in the past. You vote for the Dem nominee regardless.
I agree. If Sanders' voters need to put someone down, there are plenty to choice from in the GOP.

[calimary]

59. No kidding, my friend!

Last edited Thu Jun 11, 2015, 03:33 PM - Edit history (1)

We have PLENTY of enemies in common. Why are we attacking each other?

I just wish I saw an equal amount of cooperation and conciliatory language coming back from the Bernie camp to us in the Hillary camp as I see from the Hillary camp toward the folks in the Bernie camp. It's quite lopsided at the moment. One side appears far more gracious, amicable, obliging, and accommodating than the other.

And I'm old, too. I'm old enough to remember 1968, when the rabid supporters of Gene McCarthy turned their backs en masse and stayed home and pouted on Election Day - and our only realistic chance to keep the White House in Democratic hands, our nominee being the VERY imperfect Hubert Humphrey, went down in flames. They thought Humphrey was just the worst, and we wound up getting fucking NIXON. Who was so much worse than Humphrey on ANY metric you'd care to use. And I kept thinking about those rigid and uncompromising Perfection-Or-Bust McCarthy supporters and wanting to ask them - "Well, how'd that Election Day pout-fest work out for ya? It got us a fucking republi-CON in the White House. Was it worth it??? You happy NOW????"

When the quest is for Perfection-Or-Bust, we often get stuck with "Bust".

[dpatbrown]

74. First of all,

I love the picture you chose. But yes, it's ridiculous. I had the same discussion last week and used the same analogy. I remember 68 very well, as most amazing. And you are exactly correct on all counts. These folks are the republican's best friend.

You nailed it again.

[LiberalLovinLug]

44. Good to hear

Go Democrats!

[hrmjustin]

45. I think Hillary is the most qualified and most electable candidate but i will support the nominee.

I am loyal to the party.

[grahamhgreen]

46. Thank you! And vice-versa!

[BainsBane]

52. I definitely think he is electable for the nomination

I think the general is another story. Like you, I will support the Democratic nominee regardless, and I certainly would have no problem voting for Sanders in the general.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

55. Fair enough.

[fadedrose]

56. Good for you

I like Bernie too.

He's is own man, and a quite good one.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Good message.

Thanks for a piece of calm sanity in what only promises to be a continuing clusterfuck of contention.

[Gman]

78. I don't know of any Hillary supporter

That has a problem with Sanders, of the people I talked to other than he's not Hillary. Don't know about DU.

[H2O Man]

77. Recommended.

Thank you for this.

[madokie]

80. What exactly makes her qualified

FLOTUS, SS, Senator 2 terms, what?
Oh I know because she's been running for the Presidency since the big dog walked into the oval office. Yea I get it
Qualifications hardly

[Gman]

85. "Qualifications hardly"

In only your opinion. That's the qualifications that are important to me.

[madokie]

88. What I wrote is whats important to you?

It's not only my opinion its the opinion of many people in this country.
What is her qualifications?
What is it
I'm at a loss
So tell me what they are.

It won't matter Bernie is the next POTUS, get ready for it

[Gman]

89. It's also the opinion of many more than Sanders

According to the polls. You've been around DU for a lot of years so you're quite familiar with national politics and I don't have to explain Hillary to you. There are things I like about her that you don't. That's the way it is. And I'm not going to persuade you, nor you me.

[madokie]

90. I won't even try

What I will do pretty regularly remind who ever that I am a Bernie Sanders kind of guy

it nothing personal

[Jamaal510]

83. I think part of what shut

Occupy down was its lack of organization. They lacked leadership, and weren't able to completely unite under one goal. Some Occupy demonstrators were part of the Green Party while others were Libertarians and anarchists. I remember Occupy also trying to distance itself even from certain political figures who actually supported the movement and wanted to help out (like with John Lewis at one Atlanta rally).
As far as the primaries go, I'm leaning towards Bernie, and I think anything is possible. However, he is gong to have to raise his poll numbers soon and siphon off some of Hillary's numbers in order to make this a competitive race. He announced his campaign a few weeks ago, but his numbers aren't moving much, so he has to push his message harder and do a better job of convincing more Democrats that he can win the GE. He has to make the name "Bernie Sanders" into the same type of household name that "Barack Obama" was near this point during the '08 primaries, and make himself known to people outside of Vermont. If that wasn't a tall enough task, he would be doing this in a political climate where not many Americans (including some Democrats) even know the meaning of the word "socialism", let alone Democratic Socialism.
Regardless of who comes out on top, though, I'll be fine with any Democrat over any Republican or 3rd party candidate.

[Gman]

84. Obama hit the scene with a bang at the 04 DNC convention

And there was talk of him running immediately after that. Sanders has always been there, for the most part under the radar.

I've said this before and I'm not bashing, but I really think Sanders doesn't plan on winning the nomination. His goal is to push the 2016 discussion more toward the issues he champions.

[lovemydog]

86. As an undecided

but leaning toward Bernie, thank you for your thoughtful post. I will do the same.