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[Stuart G]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Stuart G) on Sun Jun 14, 2015, 03:52 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

1. I guess it would depend on the comment.

Context?

[Stuart G]

3. Making racist comment about policeman who drew gun and sat on black teenager

At this thread...here is link:

"Texas Teacher Fired After Disturbingly Racist Post In Response To Pool Party Incident"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141115558

[Dr Hobbitstein]

5. Yes, that teacher should be fired.

She showed that she is racially insensitive, and someone with that demeanor should NOT be teaching kids.

[StopTheNeoCons]

10. I agree, she needed to be fired...nt

[uppityperson]

120. exactly

[tblue37]

76. Do you think it is an accident the black kids are the ones who get

the cops called on them in grade school and middle school, so that they're taken out in handcuffs for minor transgressions that don't even get white kids sent to the principal's office?

Or that black kids get suspended and expelled so much more often than white kids, even for the same behaviors?

A lot of the school to prison pipeline results from the way racist teachers and administrators view black kids and respond to their behavior, behavior that does not produce similar overreactions when committed by white kids.

The same perceptual distortion that leads racist cops to treat even innocent, unarmed black people (including preteen children like Tamir Rice!) as dangerous criminals who must be immediately shot if the cop hopes to make it home alive also causes racist teachers to treat black kids far too harshly because they perceive them as irredeemable "thugs."

Anyone capable of viewing that video and thinking it showed that black people were the problem is the kind of person who would not be able to react without bias to anything one of her black students said or did.

And anyone capable of publicly making such an ugly remark about those kids in the video should never have any authority over kids of the race she so clearly despises. She is obviously not capable of treating black kids without prejudice. The fact that she has already had 16 years to do damage to vulnerable kids makes it even more important to bring to a quick end her power to victimize children for belonging to the race that she hates.

[6chars]

79. I was gonna say no, but then read the quote

She didn't just slip up, she laid out in detail her negative feelings about blacks to the point that there's no walking them back. There is no way her classroom could be an environment conducive t learning for a black student who knows (as they will) what she wrote, and for that matter I don't think most white kids - like the boy who filmed the attack - could or should be comfortable in her class. It's not that firing and ending her career is necessarily the right punishment, it's that she has destroyed her own possibility to be an effective teacher. Dumb move by her.

[Jamastiene]

80. For that comment?

Yes, she should be fired and not allowed to work in public schools again. If she cannot learn to treat students equally and has that much animosity toward people of color, she should not be in an authority position over them or in charge of their education. It sounds like she already has her mind made up about people of color. So, they would not get a quality education from her, nor would they be treated equally.

Maybe these rude internet comments that are getting people in positions of authority fired and these videos that are recorded and put up on the internet can out more and more of the invisible empire of white supremacists that continually treat people of color so badly. It might not end racism, but at least more and more people in positions of authority who have that kind of extreme prejudice toward people of color can lose their jobs and the world can see them for what they really are.

Yes, for that kind of comment and mentality, she should be fired and not allowed to work with any African American children again. She hates them too much to treat them equally. That is far too much animosity she has there. Why should African American children have to endure someone who hates them that much? She should be fired AND kept from ever being in position of authority over any African American children ever again for that kind of bigotry.

[Ms. Toad]

95. Absolutely.

And it is a bit disingenuous not to have included the context in the OP.

1. No one who believes schools should be segregated to protect the innocent white people from the black savages (paraphrasing - but that was her clear sentiment) should be teaching.

2. Anyone dumb enough to post that sentiment on facebook (or even utter it out loud, for that matter), has sufficient mental capacity to be a competent teacher.

[yardwork]

108. That person has no business teaching children.

[djean111]

2. How does what she obviously feels transfer to her students?

She has the opportunity to mold young minds. I think that plays a part in the decision.

[Stuart G]

13. Do we know for sure, that these opinions were indeed transfered to her students?

We don't know that, do we? Actually all I know is she said racist stuff publically that she should not have said. Nothing new. What else do we know, or is that enough to take that action?

[geek tragedy]

24. we can assume that they will be. there is a very strong presumption that

piece of white supremacist trash who hate black children will discriminate against black children.

she would have to prove that she wouldn't discriminate against black kids to be let back in the classroom, and that ain't gonna happen.

[alphafemale]

43. People who are that blatently racist are ALWAYS going to transmit those feelings into behavior.

They can't help themselves.

It's like projectile leprosy or something.

[Bobbie Jo]

49. Ok, well aside from that

(which is enough for me to fire her ass)

You have to question the judgment of someone who would think that making such vile comments publically was okay...or a good idea?

Any way you look at this demonstrates that she's unfit for the position.

[noiretextatique]

70. i'm only racist after 5pm

is that what you are suggesting? i doubt it works that way, to be honest.

[notadmblnd]

102. I wouldn't want my child sitting in one of her classrooms

Would you be ok with one of yours sitting in her class?

[cali]

4. that wasn't a dumb comment. It was a racist screed.

Should a racist piece of shit be anywhere near minority children in a position of authority? Hell no.

[brush]

7. You nailed it, Cali.

She's calling for re-segregation.

What an idiot, and she's teaching kids — some of whom are black.

How stupid can you get to put that out in cyberspace.

Get her as far away from the classroom as possible.

[Nay]

29. Exactly. Why is it even a question whether she should be fired? Good heavens. If I

were a black parent I wouldn't want her anywhere near my kid. Frankly, as a white parent I wouldn't want her as my kid's teacher, either.

[madinmaryland]

62. She shouldn't be in front of ANY children, minority or not.

[lovemydog]

6. It depends. If you're talking about the teacher who wrote:

“I’m going to just go ahead and say it … the blacks are the ones causing the problems and this ‘racial tension.’ I guess that’s what happens when you flunk out of school and have no education. I’m sure their parents are just as guilty for not knowing what their kids were doing; or knew it and didn’t care. I’m almost to the point of wanting them all segregated on one side of town so they can hurt each other and leave the innocent people alone. Maybe the 50s and 60s were really on to something. Now, let the bashing of my true and honest opinion begin….GO! #imnotracist #imsickofthemcausingtrouble #itwasatagedcommunity,”

And then later claimed she wasn't referring to black people.

As mentioned in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6816184

Fuck yes she should be fired. That's not just 'dumb' or 'insensitive.' It's racist.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. She Lost Me At "the blacks"

THE blacks? Like me saying, "the ants have to go. They're damaging my sugar maple." "The blacks" is the hot as fire tip off what she really thinks.

The part about segregation just amplifies it, but the first words after the elipsis are such we could have predicted the rest.

[daredtowork]

78. I'd have to question every grade she's ever given in the past

Wonder how many kids that weren't valedictorian because of her, didn't get into better colleges because of her (because of their GPA was undercut by subjective factors and/or less than stellar recommendations)...

This Facebook post is an instant argument for why pipelining is necessary: to make up for all the time students must have been cheated by the BIAS of people like her.

Yep, lacks the good judgment to be a teacher.

[noiretextatique]

71. she's not only racist, she's barely literate

perhaps she was fired because of poor writing and comprehension skills.

[MineralMan]

8. Yeah, I think making racist comments on Facebook is grounds

for firing a teacher who has a diverse class to teach. She does have that diversity in her classroom. She did make racist comments. Out the door with her, summarily.

How's that?

I have very strong opinions about many things. I don't post them on Facebook, though. It's far too public a place.

[FSogol]

9. Should someone with rascist views be teaching children? Can they really be fair to all students

when they hold views like that?

[Nay]

31. Nope and nope. nt

[hfojvt]

83. sometimes if you are correcting spelling

it doesn't matter if you're black or white.

[Puzzledtraveller]

117. That's the real issue

Also people need to realize that social media is social!

[Paladin]

11. That teacher deserved to lose her job over those comments.

Imagine being a black parent, having to entrust your child to such an individual, had she been allowed to stay. Good riddance.

[stevenleser]

12. It depends how bad the statement is and whether its possible it was misconstrued.

In the example it seems to which you are referring, yes, she should be fired.

[treestar]

14. I think it was enough to fire a teacher

especially is she has black students. It's the same mentality the police officer would have. Police officers can cause physical damage but teachers could cause other types of damage - to self esteem, not grading fairly.

I'm surprised she thought she could state what she did on FB without getting fired. Maybe she's in some part of Texas where she figured all the white people would agree? SMH.

[Stuart G]

18. People post lots of things on the internet that should not be posted.

Should immediately firing be the correct thing to do?...Cops kill people, and they do not get fired immediately. What I ask is, "Should this person be fired immediately for that statement?". Or ..she be removed from the classroom and an investigation be made?..How do we know that the statement totally reflects her behavior in the classroom? Perhaps her statement did not reflect how she taught her fourth graders. Don't know. Does anyone?

[geek tragedy]

21. she's a white supremacist. no need to inquire further.

white supremacists will discriminate against people of color. it's what they do, it's who they are

imagine you're a parent of a black child. how would you feel about having your kid being graded and judged and disciplined by the Grand Dragoness?

[TexasProgresive]

28. Stupid is a stupid does

Do we want stupid people teaching our children, let alone a racist bigot.

[noiretextatique]

82. why should they waste money on her?

she became a liability the minute she CHOSE to post her nasty, racist rant on facebook do you think any black parent would be comfortable with your little social experiment? sure...let's put my black children in the classroom with a professed racist, to see if she's *really* racist. great idea

[frogmarch]

15. In this case, YES! nt

[Nye Bevan]

16. Did she have tenure?

If so, those who complain that it is too hard to fire teachers with tenure are clearly wrong.

If not, this case demonstrates an advantage to not offering tenure to elementary school teachers.

Given their influence over developing minds, it's always good to see a bad teacher get fired.

[Travis_0004]

22. I never really understood the concept of tenure to elementary, or even high school students.

I understand tenure for college professors, who need academic freedom to pursue research and publish opinions that may be unpopular.

Last I checked most elementary teachers don't do research and publish articles.

[dsc]

53. no but to take one example

a teacher in Orange County NC, who happens to be gay, read a book about a prince marrying another prince after a student was subjected to homophobic bullying. He had to attend a hearing about the book. You think he might, just might need tenure.

[prayin4rain]

17. I think her post was extreme enough to be fired over.

But, I do think firing people for expressing opinions publically is an interesting topic.

A lot of people in this country do not want gay, pro-choice, non-Christian, socialists teaching THEIR children. If a teacher spoke out on social media supporting one of those topics and the community that they teach in did not think the same way, should they be fired?

[alp227]

68. What the racist teacher said was far beyond an opinion.

That "opinion" is a sign that the teacher cannot do her job fairly to all children regardless of race, unlike "pro gay/pro choice/non Christian" opinions. That's the "free speech absolutist" problem I'm noticing even in DU juries: bigotry dismissed as "just an opinion".

[prayin4rain]

72. Yes, I very clearly stated that I think the teacher should be fired. n/t

[Stuart G]

87. Yes, extreme enough to get fired..but, due process?, hearing? etc.

My point was/is should this loss of job be immediate or should there be some kind of due process or hearing or something?

I was not arguing that she should not be fired. I did not say it wasn't racist. It was. (I did say it was dumb, it was dumb and insensitive racist and wrong, I should have said that too.) I was not defending her, I am sorry if I gave that impression.

I was questioning the process of firing. Does she /anyone deserve at least some kind of hearing or due process over this statement/ or perhaps any statement/ in the social media? .. prayin4rain has brought up a very important point.
I was questioning the immediate action taken, not the content. The statement was awful. If anyone thought I was defending her statement, I was not. And if that is what people thought, I was wrong for giving that impression.

Just the process. And I am sorry if that was not clear.

[prayin4rain]

103. Yeah, interesting topic in my opinion.

This case is pretty easy. Yes, fired without qualms.

But, in general an interesting topic.
Remember this teacher being fired for posting a vacation picture at the lake in a bikini? I thought that was outrageous.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4234128

So, yeah, I took your post as generally bringing up the topic, not as defending a clearly racist teacher who clearly needed to go.

[Stuart G]

113. Thank You..that was my reason for that topic.

It was.. "not about defending a clearly racist teacher who clearly needed to go."

[geek tragedy]

19. If there's a whites-only school she's qualified to teach there.

But she's shown herself completely incapable of being fair to children of diverse racial backgrounds.

[Nay]

37. Teachers like this are bad for white kids, too. nt

[geek tragedy]

40. presumably a school with a whites-only admission policy would disagree.

if racism is part of the curriculum, she'd be teacher of the year

[Bluenorthwest]

99. Such as school would be illegal in the US, so straw man. A racist teacher is bad for students of the

race the racist prefers as well as those of other races, the end.

[Starry Messenger]

20. Teachers get fired all the time for comments

and posts on social media. This illusion that our jobs are sacrosanct needs to end. Tenure does not make teachers unfirable.

[Throd]

23. Yes, no, maybe so. It depends on the specific comments.

[NightWatcher]

25. Not only racist, but she showed HORRIBLE decision making skills by posting it

We live in an age where the comments you previously muttered under your breath or told one like minded friend now end up in public for everyone to see. She needs to learn when to post and when to shut up.

If I were a parent of a kid that she thought should be separated from her in society, I'd be demanding she be fired instead of teaching my kid.

[geek tragedy]

26. a mere dumb comment, no? White supremacism, yes nt

[samsingh]

27. what's the comment?

[Cal Carpenter]

33. Here ya go. Hate speech. Nasty.

"This makes me ANGRY!" reads the post from Fitzgibbons, referring to Casebolt's resignation, according to Texas outlet the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal. "This officer should not have to resign. I'm going to just go ahead and say it...the blacks are the ones causing the problems and this 'racial tension.' I guess that's what happens when you flunk out of school and have no education."'

The post continues, "I’m sure their parents are just as guilty for not knowing what their kids were doing; or knew it and didn’t care. I’m almost to the point of wanting them all segregated on one side of town so they can hurt each other and leave the innocent people alone. Maybe the 50s and 60s were really on to something. Now, let the bashing of my true and honest opinion begin....GO!

[samsingh]

48. that's very nasty. the teacher has no business teaching

[geek tragedy]

35. one calling for a return to Jim Crow apartheid

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141115558

In other words, one where she wouldn't have to have black kids in her classroom

[Jefferson23]

30. Her bigotry is based on ignorance and she is a teacher who embraced bigotry when she decided

to make the post...she was passionate about it, actually.

If you believe she kept a lid on those feelings when working as a teacher, you have more faith than I.
Advocate for the students, she is the adult, and I hope she does not teach again. Maybe
at some point now she will work on her own issues and not at the expense of children.

[Cal Carpenter]

32. A dumb comment? Insensitive? Saying something stupid?

Okay, so I followed the link to her actual words and I am sort of appalled to see anyone here implying that what she said could be written off as dumb, insensitive, stupid... The OP seems to present a dishonest hypothetical scenario, because I think there are probably cases in which teachers do say something dumb on facebook and punished for it, and perhaps in some of those cases it is debatable.

But this? It was flat-out racist hate speech, pro-segregation rife with stereotypes and assumptions and a wish to go back to the old days of Jim Crow. Nasty disgusting garbage that has no place in the mind of a school teacher.

Regardless of the skin tone of my (hypothetical) children, I would not want a racist POS teaching them. This is over the top, and the fact that she was stupid enough to broadcast her blatant racist disgusting bullshit publicly? Oh my fucking god.

She's an asshole and deserves to be fired.

[ileus]

34. Bullying it's the new way to get what you want.

[geek tragedy]

36. who's doing the bullying in your view? nt

[Cali_Democrat]

42. Always interesting to read the views of people who like to post in RKBA

Especially when it comes to issues surrounding race and criminal justice.

[geek tragedy]

50. gender too. We had a RKBA'er defending Florida's Scarlet Letter Law the other day nt

[Cali_Democrat]

41. Who's doing the bullying in this case?

[LanternWaste]

52. Pretending the consequences of bigoted speech is "bullying." It's the new way to rationalize...

Pretending the consequences of bigoted speech is "bullying." It's the new way to rationalize the irrational.

[Logical]

94. Not a shock coming from you, please explain your comment! Nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

39. Ask youself two things:

1. Is the comment in any possible way open to other interpretations? IOW, could a fair person think it may have been misconstrued?

2. If the answer to #1 is no, is the person making the comment is in a position of authority over the group they are commenting on?

In the case of the grade school teacher longing for a return to Jim Crow, I think those criteria have been met.

[TwilightGardener]

44. Some people really should just stay off of social media altogether.

They don't have the wisdom or judgment for it. Why give employers access to your personal life and unsavory opinions and jokes--things you used to share only with close friends and family? Want to put all your business out there, this is what you get.

[99Forever]

45. That was NOT a dumb comment.

It was deliberate racist hate speech. Quit making excuses for assholes.

[kimbutgar]

46. Yes

It shows she does not think her students are equal in the classroom. I would wonder does she ignore the black and brown children and only makes the effort to advance white children? As a parent I would not want my child in her class knowing she is a bigot. I am a substitute but I make an effort to treat all the kids I work with equally regardless of color.

[demmiblue]

47. Honestly, I can't believe you are even asking this. n/t

[Stuart G]

56. I am asking this because of this idea.

Is immediate firing for an insensitive racist comment on social media, the correct procedure in this case?. The answer in this discussion is yes, but I do not believe so.

So many have said that that totally reflects her classroom behavior. I am not so sure. I worked in a school system where racism existed in many forms. White on black, as well as black on white.. Some obvious some not so obvious. Very ugly on the part of teachers, administrators as well as students. Lots of it .. And no one was fired or expelled "immediately." For any of it or, thrown out for any of it, as long as it wasn't violent. Verbal was not an excuse for "immediate" firing. I was told by a student, "F**k You" no immediate expulsion. I was hit and attacked..no immediate expulsion. So that is why I ask it. Worse than this kind of talk, has resulted in far less. A teacher hit a student, no immediate firing ...Yes..large systems, it wasn't pretty...

[geek tragedy]

60. she said she doesn't want black kids in her school or in her

neighborhood.

you expect her to keep her job teaching black kids?

[noiretextatique]

73. i would not that woman anywhere near my black niece

i am sorry if anyone is mistreated, and having a racist asshole for a teacher would certainly be mistreatment for the black kids she hates. do you honestly believe she doesn't believe, live and breathe everything she wrote? i take her at her word. or are you suggesting that your experience is similar to hers? did she write a racist screed because black people don't like her? perhaps. and, she still deserves exactly what she got.

[kath]

109. "Black on white" racism??

Oy.

[Cal Carpenter]

121. If she can't keep it off facebook, she sure as shit can't keep it out of the classroom

[randys1]

51. Yes of course she has to be fired, and beware of righty who will find a way to turn (TENURE)

this around and attack the concept of tenure.

Righty hates teachers, they think they dont work hard and dont deserve decent pay and benefits.

Whether or not tenure is a good idea, I am not sure, but I am sure righty hates it for the same reason they hate everything else.

[BklnDem75]

54. Why not?

This teacher got fired for her tweets:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/14/us/texas-teacher-fired-ferguson-tweet/

[ismnotwasm]

55. It was beyond "dumb"

It was hateful, vile and evidence of the type of racist opinion that has no place in anyone, much less an instructor of young people. So yes.

[Iggo]

57. In that particular case, Yes. Absolutely.

[Igel]

58. Absolutely.

However, if she turns over the names of at least 10 other racists at least as equally well placed and commits to testify in the court of public opinion (anonymously, if necessary) as to their heinous un-American acts so that they may be punished (or also be compelled to inform on others), we'll forgive her.

This time.

But only because we're really into compassion, kindness, and empathy, the true humanists from the Congregation for the Doctrine of Justice. Heck, we're just all caring people people here.

[DawgHouse]

59. Firing her was the right thing to do, and good riddance!

Here's an interesting article from UT Austin about Social Media Professionalism for Teachers.

https://community.edb.utexas.edu/socialmedia/ideassm_training_content/menu-training/4

[sendero]

61. In this case...

.... she brought disrepute upon an organization (school) that needs the trust of the community.

She absolutely deserved to be fired. I feel not one bit of sympathy for her.

In fact, I wish ever racist son of a bitch in the country would spout off like that so we know who they are. I wouldn't trust a racist in any position of responsibility, any where.

[LexVegas]

63. Do you think this is a case of reverse racism? nt.

[alp227]

67. What do you mean? nt

[noiretextatique]

74. the poster

claimed to be a victim of 'reverse racism' in another thread. perhaps he thinks this racist POS is a victim too

[kath]

110. And he speaks of "black on white" racism in a post above...

[Skittles]

64. my opinion

if she's stupid enough to put out such a comment without seemingly understanding the possible consequences, what other stupid decisions is she making?

[LeftyMom]

65. I bet her black students didn't care for her, either.

You and she should get together for coffee and commiserate about how unfair it is to be the victims of reverse racism.

[kcr]

66. If it's a racist comment, absolutely n/t

[pnwmom]

69. It wasn't the comment so much as the feelings and attitude behind the comment.

If you were a black parent, knowing what she had said on Facebook, would you trust her with your children?

[noiretextatique]

75. as others have pointed out: you are minimizing her comment

it wasn't "insensitive" or "stupid"...it was nasty and racist, and it was intentional. some people just aren't used to being called to task or suffering any consequences for making racist statements. i am sure she is completely shocked that she was fired. i bet she expected a medal...and she might get one...from the KKK.

[Kalidurga]

77. Yes

I also think you should have a pizza and be happy. Your comments smell like KKK.

[JI7]

81. are you the one who made the post about reverse racism and how all the black teachers hated you ?

[Prism]

84. Yes, immediately

i'm actually pretty against social media "justice". I think it's usually hyperbolic, fascistic nonsense.

However.

There are times where someone says something in public which puts into question whether or not they are capable of doing their job.

If a teacher expresses racist sentiments, I wonder how well that teacher is treating his or her minority students. The district has cause to wonder as well. If the district has cause, even for an instant, to wonder if a teacher will treat all students equally, you can their ass.

They canned her ass.

Good.

[Egnever]

85. In this womans case

You betcha.

[6000eliot]

86. Should a moronic, racist teacher be defended on a liberal forum?

[Orrex]

88. Yes. THAT teacher should be fired immediately for THAT comment about THAT issue.

What the cop did was indeed worse, and he should have been fired (had he not already resigned).


You're asking a general question about a specific situation. The general answer to your general question is "it depends on the context."

[Paladin]

89. As to this woman? You betcha. (nt)

[DanTex]

90. If the comment is "the blacks are the ones causing the problems" then yes.

[Glassunion]

91. Well in this new age of social media, they will be fired.

When folks now a day post anything insensitive, controversial, or simply rude. The entirety of society will become "outraged", and demand that regardless of context, forum, or subject, that the individual be terminated from whatever occupation they may hold. Social groups will demand boycotts, all the while threatening, stalking and all around bullying of the individual who made the comment. In essence, don't say anything you don't want to have the entirety of social media to view. One must keep in mind the "Burn the Witch!!!" attitude of social media.

[Stuart G]

96. The social media does indeed have a "do it now", "right now" attitude..

Rules of the social media are new, and uncertain. It is a new media. Instant firing for comments on social media is a relatively new idea. I raised this question because of the nature of the issue, not the woman's comment. How do the powers decide if an immediate firing fits a particular situation?.. What is the criteria, and should the same criteria be used in all situations?..

Also...Does that criteria, whatever it is, overrule a union agreement for procedures for firing individuals?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

92. Of course not! In 1960s Alabama or South Africa, she would've been

promoted.

[Logical]

93. You are ok with obvious racists teaching? Nt

[Stuart G]

100. You got that wrong, I am not OK..with obvious racist teaching...that was not my point at all.

Again, it was the procedure of the firing, not the firing itself. That is what this is what the OP was meant to discuss. The immediate firing of this person. As I read the comments above, it seems that many see my questioning of the "immediate firing" as questioning the ability of the powers that be to fire this person. I do not question that at all. I have never questioned the firing of this person. It is how and when. Also, will firing under certain circumstances (like immediately) be consistent with the rules that were in place before. Or, maybe rules within a union contract.

So, if a teacher hits a student, should that teacher be instantly fired, or should some kind of hearing and investigation be held? Yes, teachers that hit students were not instantly fired. Some, are never fired. That is the point of the OP, and that point seems to be lost in attacking me. Procedures exist for ugly situations. This is such a situation in my opinion..That is my opinion ..Instant firing as opposed to a short wait and some kind of investigation. Then, fire her, of course.

This was supposed to be about the procedure of firing someone and has turned into attacking me for raising that question. As stated, if I did not make that clear, I am sorry. It was not my intent to defend a racist comment made on the social network.

[Bluenorthwest]

104. Then your mistake was the choice to leave the actual comment out of your post while characterizing

it not as you do here, as a racist comment, but as a 'dumb comment'. That omission of fact and inclusion of softer characterization of the comment is very easy to see as a defense of the comment itself. 'It's not racist, it's just dumb, agree with me she should not be fired for a dumb comment'.

I asked you why you did it that way, I got no response. Why did you do it that way? Did you think we would not look for the comment, that we would all purchase your pig in a poke?

[Stuart G]

107. I did not include the comment for this reason.

And I am sorry if you saw that as a "defense of that comment"

It wasn't about the comment, (I didn't think it was, but I see so many do) it was how the teacher was fired. Are there procedures in place for the firing.....Now, why is that important, you might ask..What is the big deal with procedures?

Unions have instituted procedures to protect teachers from being fired for the wrong reasons. For example, a teacher tells the principal that he/she is wrong on something, say in front of the entire faculty.. Teacher fired for speaking up. Far worse has happened . Therefore, my point was to know if immediate dismissal for this comment on social media was correct. The comment itself obviously was worth firing over. As she got fired, did she get fair treatment? And I did not make that clear.

..Why? Is that important. Because so many teachers do not get fair treatment..(see above paragraph)

What I have just written, is what I was thinking. I was not, under any circumstances trying to defend her comment, and I am sorry that I did not make that clear, to you, and to everyone. I was never intending to defend her statement on the social media. Her statement stands, and I should have included it in OP if that would have clarified things better.

[Cal Carpenter]

122. Unions didn't "institute procedures"

Unions do often negotiate protections of the workers from the institutions. They don't have the power to 'institute' anything. That's the fucking point.

As for the rest of your disingenuous dog whistles and false equivalencies throughout this thread, I won't bother.

[JHB]

114. Reread your OP. You didn't stress procedure, you didn't even use the word.

Compounding that error, you characterized a sustained bile-filled racial screed as a "stupid Facebook post". That's hardly an accurate characterization.

Between this two-step of (best case scenario) bad aim and poor framing of your question, you're perplexed as to why this thread isn't focused on the topic you say it was supposed to be about?

If that's the case, why don't you self-delete your OP and try again with a new OP that's actually about procedure and its application?

[LWolf]

97. I'm conflicted.

Unless this teacher's facebook page has no privacy settings, and can be read without "friending" her, I don't think she should be fired for something she posted on facebook. She should be fired if she in any way treats her black students with less professionalism than her white students.

On the other hand, if her facebook page uses her full name, why would she put something like that out there? That's just stupid, imo.

I don't use my whole name for facebook for that very reason. I like my privacy.

[Bluenorthwest]

98. The fact that you left out the actual comment while demanding absolution for it caused me to go

find the comment. It's not a dumb comment it is a spewing of deeply racist invective.
My question is what were you thinking when you left the actual quote out of your OP about the quote? I mean, what was in your mind when you did that? Did you think others would not look up the quote? Sorry to disappoint.

[Stuart G]

101. I will try to answer that again

The deeply racist invective was not the issue to me in the OP. Perhaps it should have but was not.

I was not defending that quote. I was questioning the procedure for firing this individual. I was not thinking she would remain on staff. Of course she was going to be fired. I knew she would be fired, it is just the procedure for firing. That is all. Should that firing have taken place the way it was? That was the issue to me, as opposed to the quote that the person made.

[Bluenorthwest]

105. That does not explain why you characterized the quote as merely a 'dumb comment'.

You did not in fact say 'she was really racist but are we giving her due process' you asked if such a long standing teacher should be fired for a 'dumb comment'. You intentionally minimized her comment.

[Stuart G]

112. That was wrong on my part.

She was/is really racist. I am saying that now.
It was not my purpose to minimize, I was not thinking that. I was thinking about job protections for firing teachers and how these protections were instituted and why. The original post was not clear and I am sorry for not making it clear.

[etherealtruth]

111. I think you have your answer

A stupid post, no .... a racist rant, yes

[Solly Mack]

115. Yes. Even if she never made explicitly racist comments in class, there is still her implicit bias.

Implicit bias would affect her understanding, her actions, and her decisions in class in unconscious ways.

Like overt and covert racism - you have explicit and implicit bias. Implicit bias is a bias you may not even be aware is at play - but it directly stems from your conscious thoughts about people along racial, gender, etc. lines)


Let's look at her own words.

"I'm just going to just go ahead and say it...the blacks are the ones causing the problems and this "racial tension". I guess that's what happens when you flunk out of school and have no education. I'm sure their parents are just as guilty for not knowing what their kids were doing; or knew and didn't care.

I'm almost to the point of wanting them all segregated on one side of town so they can hurt each other and leave the innocent people alone. Maybe the 50s and 60s were really on to something. Now, let the bashing of my true and honest opinion begin...GO!"

That's a blatantly racist comment rooted in willful ignorance and stereotypes. She is telling people how she really feels about African-Americans - they are uneducated and it's generational (because that's how she sees African-Americans), that any "racial tension" that exist is brought on by the victims of discrimination - not those doing the discriminating (because that's how she sees white people - just trying to get along in a world where nonwhites complain about everything). Then she goes on to tell the world how she thinks African-Americans are violent thugs who need to be separated so they can hurt each other instead of - white people. Oh, she says "innocent people" but she means white people - like herself and the abusive cop.

What this means is that her thoughts, her feelings, her beliefs will (no exceptions) manifest themselves into unconscious acts/decisions/ means of understanding - or implicit bias.

This will determine how she treats her students. She may not even be aware of what she's doing as she grades papers - but she'll still grade the papers of her African-American students more severely than her white students. Her attitude about her students' parents will spill over onto how she sees the student. She'll treat them differently.

White parents = good parent = student gets treated better.

African-American parents = uneducated, trouble making lazy thug who doesn't care about their kids = student gets treated worse.

She'll be more critical of her brown skinned students. She'll address them differently. She'll consider their answers weaker or dumb.

Her racism will, in all ways, impact the quality of education she passes on to her nonwhite students.

If you were to ask her if she does these things, she'd tell you, "No". And truth is the bias is so ingrained that people are often times unaware they are doing these things - hence, implicit bias.

So, yeah. She should have been fired. Frankly, all racist educators should be fired. (and cops, judges, public defenders, etc.) - Because absolutely none of them are capable of separating their racism from their actions and decisions. People in a position of public trust can and do adversely affect the lives of those they harbor racism/bigotry against and that's never a good thing. Just look at sentencing disparities, rates of conviction for the same crimes, and who, disproportionately, populates our prisons ... can't blame all of that on the lack of money.

No one escapes implicit bias - No one. But some people get up every morning knowing they have to fight against the urge to give in to the environment that helped shaped their early years. Sometimes it comes from your parents and home-life, sometimes it comes from your peers. Usually, one enforces the other. But people can learn and people can become aware and people can change - if they want to.

That woman's students can't afford to wait for her to change. Justice can't wait for police and judges and public defenders to change either. It's waited long enough.

[Arugula Latte]

116. Uhh -- YEAH. It was a long racist rant. Bye, bye to this bigoted creep.

[Renew Deal]

118. Depends on the comment, but in this case absolutely.

The lady called for segregation. The entire thing was overtly racist. She cannot be trusted around children.

[arely staircase]

119. had one in our district get fired over a fb post

Very sexually explicit rant about an ex boyfriend. Also had the n word kinda in a non racist way.

[mythology]

123. She should have been fired for two reasons

1. Being a racist asshat.

2. For being too stupid to realize posting something like that on the internet is a bad idea.