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Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:40 AM

The jobs are going whether we sign agreements or not.

If I could hammer home one fact that people just don't get, it's that.

You know the horrific article about the woman who lost her hands in an LG factory in Mexico? The factory was built in 1983, 11 years before NAFTA. LG (actually Zenith at the time) shipped its jobs across the Rio Grande. It didn't need a trade agreement to do that.

China and India have no free trade agreement with the US, but they're where a majority of offshored jobs go. And some of the stuff US companies do there is horrible. And don't even get me started about Bangladesh. American light manufacturing labor can't compete with developing world light manufacturing labor, and companies don't need free trade agreements to take advantage of that (India, China, and Bangladesh are exhibits 1, 2, and 3 there).

Those jobs keep going, and new jobs keep coming. The unemployment rate is actually lower right now than in 1993, and the discouraged worker rate is much much lower (it's only 0.5% right now; it was something like 2% in 1993).

You can't tariff your way out of that, because a corporation will be happy to take lower labor costs and have the consumer pay the tariff. It just means the TVs will be more expensive when we buy them.

There is no long-term way to return mass manufacturing employment to the US. There just isn't. We need to find something else for people to do. The manufacturing sector is actually doing well, and manufacturing more than at any point in history. I recently posted an article about a textiles factory that moved to Mexico in the nineties and recently moved back to South Carolina. They produce more yarn now than they did in 1992. But they employ 140 people now as opposed to 2000 then.

Trade agreements are not the problem; you're mistaking the symptom for the disease (for that matter, ask yourself to whose interest it is that you believe that). Trade agreements are an attempt to exert some form of government control over this economic transition, and to have some kind of outside arbitration for disputes.

Even China and India can't keep this going long, and they know it. Currently a Chinese factory worker is cheaper than a robot, but that isn't going to last much longer.

This happened 150 years ago with farms. Agricultural automation threw millions of people out of work, and there was a very disruptive transition period to an industrial economy. Automation in manufacturing is doing that same thing now (I've lost one job to Indonesia and four to automation, personally).

I don't particularly care about the TPP and I'm pretty concerned about what I've seen from the intellectual property side. After I read it I may well be against it, though I'm open to seeing what they come up with first. But it doesn't really matter whether it passes or not; it's a response to economic forces we can't undo rather than their cause.

It may be comforting to take the general malaise and anxiety that middle- and working-class Americans face and give it an acronym to name it, but the simple fact is that no matter what we do, these changes are happening.

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Reply The jobs are going whether we sign agreements or not. (Original post)
Recursion Jun 2015 OP
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #1
Recursion Jun 2015 #2
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #5
Recursion Jun 2015 #8
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2015 #78
Pooka Fey Jun 2015 #60
Exilednight Jun 2015 #71
MADem Jun 2015 #27
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #32
MADem Jun 2015 #34
TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #91
MADem Jun 2015 #92
Hoyt Jun 2015 #3
Joe Turner Jun 2015 #9
Hoyt Jun 2015 #79
Joe Turner Jun 2015 #80
Hoyt Jun 2015 #82
Joe Turner Jun 2015 #83
Hoyt Jun 2015 #84
Joe Turner Jun 2015 #87
Hoyt Jun 2015 #88
Joe Turner Jun 2015 #90
99th_Monkey Jun 2015 #4
Recursion Jun 2015 #10
99th_Monkey Jun 2015 #12
Recursion Jun 2015 #14
DJ13 Jun 2015 #6
Recursion Jun 2015 #11
Demit Jun 2015 #43
Recursion Jun 2015 #45
Demit Jun 2015 #49
hatrack Jun 2015 #61
Demit Jun 2015 #63
Gloria Jun 2015 #16
merrily Jun 2015 #7
Joe Turner Jun 2015 #13
Recursion Jun 2015 #15
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #19
Recursion Jun 2015 #20
Jesus Malverde Jun 2015 #17
Recursion Jun 2015 #18
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #21
Recursion Jun 2015 #28
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #22
Recursion Jun 2015 #24
Fearless Jun 2015 #23
joshcryer Jun 2015 #25
Recursion Jun 2015 #26
joshcryer Jun 2015 #29
Recursion Jun 2015 #30
joshcryer Jun 2015 #33
TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #93
treestar Jun 2015 #86
Maedhros Jun 2015 #31
on point Jun 2015 #35
Recursion Jun 2015 #37
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #38
Recursion Jun 2015 #40
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #46
Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #94
Hekate Jun 2015 #36
octoberlib Jun 2015 #39
Recursion Jun 2015 #41
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #42
Recursion Jun 2015 #44
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #47
Recursion Jun 2015 #48
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #50
Recursion Jun 2015 #54
Divernan Jun 2015 #53
Recursion Jun 2015 #55
Divernan Jun 2015 #59
tridim Jun 2015 #76
Divernan Jun 2015 #51
Recursion Jun 2015 #52
Divernan Jun 2015 #56
Recursion Jun 2015 #57
pampango Jun 2015 #58
Pooka Fey Jun 2015 #62
99Forever Jun 2015 #64
Recursion Jun 2015 #65
Agschmid Jun 2015 #66
Recursion Jun 2015 #69
99Forever Jun 2015 #67
Recursion Jun 2015 #68
99Forever Jun 2015 #70
kentuck Jun 2015 #72
Recursion Jun 2015 #73
kentuck Jun 2015 #75
LiberalElite Jun 2015 #74
brush Jun 2015 #77
LWolf Jun 2015 #81
treestar Jun 2015 #85
Cosmocat Jun 2015 #89

Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:42 AM

1. Unrec

 

There is an easy way to get jobs back into the US.

People before Profits.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:43 AM

2. Well we already have "jobs" back in the US; unemployment is very low

and job creation is very high.

Are you saying there's a way to return to a high level of manufacturing employment in the US, and that it's called "people before profits"? What would its concrete implementation be?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:51 AM

5. Here is what needs to change

 

At an all employee meeting at my place of employment (a multinational conglomerate) the following was stated by the company CEO (slightly paraphrased because I did not record it)

"There is a new class of investor who does not care about employees, does not care about our families, does not care about what the company is doing, does not care about the environment, and does not care about our local communities. They only care about short term gain on our stock price. We need to do everything in our power to give them their desires. It is essential that every employee at our various companies maintain the same thought process as our investors. Their desires trump all."


This is what the fight is about.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:54 AM

8. Sounds like we need a social change, which I completely agree with

Much higher taxes on capital gains, to incent companies to pour more money into wages, R&D, etc. But mostly we need people to have a sense of morality and shame when they invest.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:46 AM

78. +1. n/t

 

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:45 AM

60. Refusal to acknowledge the manipulation of the official US "unemployment" figures

means everything else one claims must be taken with an enormous teaspoon of salt.

Just because one no longer qualifies for unemployment benefits, does not mean that one has a) found a full time job or b) disappeared from US territory.

The employment/unemployment statistics are obviously BS. 93 million people aren't even counted any more--they're statistical zombies, no longer among the living workforce. If the unemployment rate were calculated on the number of full-time jobs and the true workforce (everyone ages 18 - 70 that isn't institutionalized or in prison), the unemployment rate would not be the absurdly delusional 5.6% claimed by the bureaucratic con artists.


http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjune15/BS-detector6-15.html

If the USA counted its unemployed fairly, like they do in France, I believe there would be around 20% unemployment. All that would be needed to do this would be to require job seekers to continue to check in monthly on their online unemployment file. The US has no interest in revealing the true numbers, which is why they have not implemented such an elementary record-keeping system.

Gotta love your newest neo-liberal cheer-leading post! Sorry to have to interject with some facts. As usual.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:03 AM

71. What kind of jobs? Are they the kind of jobs that a person

Can support their family on? McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Wal Mart and tons of other low paying companies are hiring, but where are the $20/hr jobs?

No country the size of the United States has ever survived as an economic powerhouse with massive trade deficits. If we're not going to find ways to increase manufacturing, then we better start looking for the next country to groom to become leader of the world. If we don't, then A country like China or Russia will just take it.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:17 AM

27. American people, though--not foreign people making a few dollars a day...?

It is a complex issue.

I think that CEOs and company bigwigs need to slow their roll on those obscene salaries, but even at that, I have to say that Recursion has made some salient points.

No one is going to operate defacto charities in the US to give people jobs. We simply need to figure out new paradigms rather than chase low-tech jobs that can be done by people who are less educated and will work for far less and call it a good wage.

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Response to MADem (Reply #27)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:28 AM

32. There it is

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company

A company is an association or collection of individuals, whether natural persons, legal persons, or a mixture of both. Company members share a common purpose and unite in order to focus their various talents and organize their collectively available skills or resources to achieve specific, declared goals.


Currently corporations are organized around a sole purpose, shareholder value. My state, Washington, has recently created new ways of incorporating that target non-profit-driven goals, ei environmental concerns, employee concerns, etc.

http://www.startuplawblog.com/2013/01/22/how-to-form-a-washington-social-purpose-corporation/

I think what we really need to do is have a National strike and kick all the for profit corps offshore, then reorganize labor into social purpose driven corporations. With that we will need to put up trade barriers so that no for profit corps are able to do business on our shores.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:45 AM

34. What a rude thing for you to say!! Nice tactic-make me the enemy, and get out the torches and

pitchforks...like that will solve the problem (hint--it won't). EDIT--thank you for removing that unkind comment.

I support nothing--I am simply pointing out that this is a complex issue. Those people in newly emerging economies aren't going to say "Oh, well, the Americans want to make this geegaw that we've been making at 1/20th their salaries....we'll go back to our huts and scratch a living out of the dirt and shit in the rice paddy." They aren't going backwards, so it's stupid to insist that we can get back that which is gone. Newly industrialized countries are making the microwaves and fridges and small appliances and so forth. They want their kids to have running water and lights and an education and a toilet that flushes.

You WANTING the Maytag Repairman to sit on his duff while American workers make Maytag washers ain't gonna happen--not when foreign workers can make them cheaper and deliver them for less. That's just simple economics, it's not an "endorsement."

Citing wikipedia isn't going to change that fact. Businesses are in business to make money, for the most part. For every socially conscious person who is going to share the wealth, for every collective/cooperative effort that plays the "We're all in this together" game, there are a dozen, hell, a hundred Mitt Romneys who are going to put their factory overseas and sell the hell out of their products. There aren't enough rich liberals to support the socially conscious competiton, usually, and the wingnuts will just say "SUCKERS!!" and buy the cheaper stuff. People who can't afford to spend too much for a thing that they can get for less will follow after the wingnuts, even if they feel guilty about it. People will go for the best price. They'll talk a good game, but if they're pinching pennies they will do what needs must to get by.

And this is NOT MY FAULT. All I am doing is pointing out the obvious. So yeah--there it IS.

If I had an idea of how to change the situation, I'd surely mention it. But there are people who have been living in shitholes for generations, and they have seen the mountaintop, and they want more.

Trade barriers? Forget about it. The impetus is to more trade, not less.

We're just going to have to Get Smart, and make something the rest of the world really, REALLY wants, and only we have the skill, talent, grit and creativity to make.

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Response to MADem (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:02 PM

91. Gonna fall back on American exceptionalism? There is no such thing and even if it was it wouldn't

change the resource distribution and downside responsibility problems.

Always the same faith based solution of educate and "uniquely creative" our way into the false premise of a privileged position particularly a sustainable one that won't be subject to the exact same forces causing the race to to the bottom scenario we have now.
It's just a carrot to chase when the only practicable way to protect our interests is to actually protect them rather than trickle down non solutions meant to placate the screwed and to squeeze more money for scamming buzzards to pick from the bones of the desperate and the government on the education for a job hamster wheel leading to greater debt loads but dubious opportunity.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #91)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:17 PM

92. What's better? To fall back on "Fuck it, we're all gonna die?"

The reason Americans are "exceptional" is because we come from all corners of the globe--we have strengths no other nation has for this reason. We are accepting of change, we are innovative, and we--most of us--are not AFRAID.

Your glass is half empty and evaporating. Mine's not.

We have to agree to disagree.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:44 AM

3. Yep, we better adapt because isolating ourselves out of fear of change ain't gonna work for long.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:55 AM

9. Not fear of change

 

Fear of the idiocy of self-inflicted wounds from corporate boondoggles like TPP. It's well past time for our elected officials to adapt to a new paradigm...working for the people not corporations. And Mr. Hoyt you have no concept of isolation. This country has always engaged in vigorous trade and always will. Rejecting economic suicide pacts is not isolation its called common sense.

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #9)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:12 AM

79. So all the world's major countries -- including Sanders' favorite Scandinavian -- are just wrong? nt

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #79)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:34 AM

80. Northern Europe is not part of TPP

 

So as usual I am left to wonder what you are referring to with your 1 liners. If you are referring to major countries having trade agreements of their own, as noted previously, the difference in how it works for them and the U.S. is night and day...as vividly shown by the U.S. worlds leading trade deficits.

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #80)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:45 AM

82. They are part of TPIP. Try to keep up.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #82)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:47 AM

83. Different agreement try avoiding tangents

 

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #83)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:51 AM

84. This tread is about the TPP, TPIP, etc.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #84)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 10:03 AM

87. As usual you are mixing apples with oranges

 

Northern European countries are party to numerous trade agreements but they have a way of making it work for them, as their historical trade statistics bear out. America does not...as our historical trade deficits and massive job losses bear out. And its because they have a degree of over corporations doing business in their country while corporations run our government. The difference is night and day. Keep on shilling.

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #87)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 10:05 AM

88. Look at the OP I responded to. You might have tried to limit the game to TPP, I didn't.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #88)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 10:14 AM

90. Changing the subject will get you nowhere

 

The discussion is about TPP. I know you would like to infer that this is no different than other other trade agreements Europe is party to but are huge differences and making any comparison is meaningless.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:50 AM

4. Even so, that doesn't mean we should grease the outsourcing skids

 

like these trade deals do.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:56 AM

10. I don't really think they do that. If anything they make it more difficult

Outsourcing to India or China is the wild west: you do what you want and as long as you're following Chinese law it's fine.

Outsource to a country with an FTA and suddenly there's this whole other regulatory body (the WTO) that polices what you can and can't do. AFL can sue you if you keep your workers from organizing (they've done this dozens of times in Mexico).

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Response to Recursion (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:59 AM

12. Why then is virtually every labor union & labor advocate saying otherwise?

 

I think they know their shit.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:04 AM

14. Because the TPP has been organizing gold.

Activists have been dreaming of the level of engagement this has gotten, and hell even I'm glad about that, if we will be able to keep that energy and point it in a more useful direction (say, a $25/hour minimum wage).

Also, AFL-CIO, at least, would probably prefer for Congress to be able to set higher tariffs for any given country, so the free trade agreement model is one they fundamentally dislike. I disagree with them that that's the best solution, but that is what they support and it's a sensible position. But I think it's kind of like defending ferriers (the people who put shoes on horses) right when the automobile is coming out. SEIU's position is more complicated, because export of services has become so important to their members.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:51 AM

6. If the TPP was really about jobs, that would be correct

Its the other 80% of the agreement that is most threatening.

The controls over the internet, the near permanent copyright provisions, the prioritizing profits over national sovereignty, those (and the countless sections not publicized) are what makes it a true nightmare.

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Response to DJ13 (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:56 AM

11. I'm troubled by what I've heard about those too, and if they end up in the text I'd be against it

There may be plenty of good reasons to oppose the TPP.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #11)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:39 AM

43. It's the power that TPP would give to corporations over governments that is frightening.

 

TPP is much, much more than a trade deal.

TPP would give corporations the power to set new international laws that can override the
domestic laws of sovereign governments, in such areas as environmental protection, food safety, medicines. Corporations will be able to sue national govts and collect taxpayer compensation if they think any regulations or laws threaten to undermine the profits they expect. These "investor protections" are written into the agreement: global "investor state tribunals" will be the final arbiters. They'll trump any participating nation's legislators and judges. They'll trump our Supreme Court.

Think of what this does to democracy: The people we now elect to make our laws will have their power superseded by international tribunals, consisting of people we did not elect and have no power to vote out of office. It's a corporate power grab of such scope, it's a new paradigm all right, but not one that will make the world better for ordinary people.

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Response to Demit (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:41 AM

45. No. Really, no. The TPP limits corporate power.

Without a trade agreement, things are like India and China. The company can show up and throw its muscle around all it wants, and the only thing it's responsible to is the government of the country it's in.

Under a free trade agreement, the home country of a company can sue it for its operations in another country. That's an option we don't have with China and India.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:10 AM

49. Well, you'd have to show me exactly where in the agreement corporate power is limited,

 

rather than vastly expanded. I also don't know what you mean by a company "only being responsible to" the govt of the country it's in.

I have been reading very specific information about what's in the agreement. Presumably from what was leaked, and from officials who were allowed to read it but not take notes. The secrecy is very disturbing. If it is so wonderful we should be able to see what's in it. Instead it is being called "NAFTA on steroids" and a trojan horse--the trojan horse being the trade "benefits" that would accrue to us. There are, apparently, 29 chapters in the agreement and only five that deal with trade. The rest set rules that limit government power, not corporate power.

This is an excellent video that describes the TPP: I realize the vid is 2 years old, but if negotiations since have changed the contents of the agreement so drastically that the substance of it has changed, I'd need you to give me cites that show me that.

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Response to Demit (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:54 AM

61. But of course, no one can show you exactly where in the agreement . . .

It's classified, your notes will be confiscated . . . but vote YES! It's a REALLY GOOD DEAL!

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Response to hatrack (Reply #61)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:23 AM

63. Exactimundo.

 

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Response to DJ13 (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:25 AM

16. Agreed

I get the bit about trying to head off China, but not without giving away control over things mentioned.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:52 AM

7. If only I were as smart and well-informed as you and Bernie Sanders.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:03 AM

13. Manufacturing can certainly come back with the right policies

 

Your defeatist attitude aside. Take a look at northern Europe and these are nations on the rise and it is because they have trade policies that help grow their manufacturing and technology sectors. By your reasoning they should have lost their jobs like we have since no 1st world nation can undercut China's wages but lo and behold nations like Germany and Sweden are exporting powerhouses. You need to find better arguments. Better yet, you need to find the truth.

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:07 AM

15. Manufacturing *is* back. It doesn't need to "come back"

You're making a crucial mistake. US manufacturing output is bigger than it has ever been. US manufacturing employment is lower than it has ever been. The US will probably always be a manufacturing powerhouse, but we will continue to employ fewer and fewer people every year. Just like agriculture.

but lo and behold nations like Germany and Sweden are exporting powerhouses

And they engage in more free trade than we do. And Germany's economy is 70% services, just like ours.

The difference is Germany requires labor to have a voice in corporate governance. We need to do that too.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:49 AM

19. Germany has tarrifs

 

They do not allow foreign goods to be sold cheaper than German made goods. Thus there is no advantage to importing foreign made goods so factories do not move out of the countries.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #19)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:50 AM

20. Oh, no you have that completely backwards

Germany has much much lower tariffs than the US.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:27 AM

17. The TTP is less about trade and more about sovereignty.

Your right about the robots. They are coming. I recently read Indian tech workers are now threatened by software automation. Basically software that writes back office software. I'm all for putting doctors out of work. Once that starts to happen we will see changes.

What I don't see much talk about is the decrease in tax revenue from this ongoing automation. The TPP still sucks inspite of all that.

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:32 AM

18. Meh. The TPP prevents US corporations from running completely roughshod over developing nations

Last edited Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:05 AM - Edit history (1)

It requires that an outside tribunal hear cases rather than simply relying on a corrupt local judiciary. If thtt's a threat to sovereignty, I'm more or less for it.

What I don't see much talk about is the decrease in tax revenue from this ongoing automation

There's no particular need for it to decrease tax revenue. Why not make all taxes capital gains taxes, for that matter?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:52 AM

21. "Outside tribunal"

 

A corporate court. Cuz everyone knows that countries can't be trusted with their own sovereignty.

Your whole OP and premise is unraveling into an anti TPP manifesto.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:19 AM

28. No, the WTO. AFL has a 70% victory rate in it

AFL-CIO can and does sue Mexico for preventing workers from organizing. They usually win. They can't sue China because China doesn't have a free trade agreement with us, because they don't want AFL or Sierra to sue them under it.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:54 AM

22. It should be cheaper to build here than cross the largest ocean on the planet.

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:06 AM

24. It is. that's why we still have so many factories here

They just don't need workers like they used to.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:02 AM

23. We're all going to die anyways, let's all start a meth habit!!11!

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:10 AM

25. Mass manufacturing labor is dead or dying, with that I agree.

With automation we are no longer going to have large manufacturing labor pools.

Something I have realized though is that while manufacturing is lower as part of GDP it is still on the rise, again, I argue, due to automation and more efficient industrialization. We simply make more stuff with less people.

What happens when some venture capitalist from silicon valley makes a robot that can make very good clothing in a sewing machine? All those Mexican or Indian clothing maker jobs will be in deep trouble. But there won't necessarily be a huge rise in American clothing manufacturing jobs. Even the ones that are still around such as American Apparel would see a decline in the labor force for those goods.

I don't know why, but every time I see a TPP discussion or a trade discussion, I keep falling back to a basic income, because for me globalization is near an end, as far as I can see it for the United States, and we need a way to solve this problem.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #25)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:12 AM

26. Basic income/social dividend is really the only workable future I see

And I imagine in 50 years or so the world will be there, but the road may be bumpy.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:22 AM

29. I've always supported it, but TPP is where I realized...

...that really, it is a symptom of our consumer culture.

I think I made the initial realization in this post here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5233560

But then I think the first time I invoked "living wage" / "basic income" with regards to TPP is lower in that subthread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5234537

TPP is a symptom of a government that is elected by consumers who want the cheapest shit possible for the least amount of effort possible (perceived effort, mind you; there's a whole other argument here how even cheap goods come at a huge cost to hard working Americans). This is not a slam on us Americans, we just found ourselves in a situation that is untenable.

The fucked up thing is that TPP will possibly make that road more bumpy because it may well kick the can down the road. I see basic income being something we're talking about in 15 years, though, automated cars should be causing a lot of labor controversy by then.

(Note: in my past posts there are always going to be inaccuracies, I since was informed about Germany's tax rate being different, but the basic arguments are still there. Nobody's perfect.)

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:25 AM

30. That's my ambivalence about the TPP too

It's a punt. I get why it's US policy, but I wish we were thinking longer term.

But, Art of the Possible, and all that, and sometimes a punt is your best play.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:29 AM

33. "ambivalence"

It sucks to say it but... yeah.

If there's a SOPA style protest I will be at the front lines. We have 60-90 days as far as I understand. I feel that it's going to be a meh moment in advocacy groups and I am no leader. No one will follow me.



Too old for this shit.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:25 PM

93. 60-90 days is not enough time to find TeaPubliKlans looking out for the people, the environment, and

pushing back on corporate domination, till the last black hole evaporates might not be long enough for that.

I don't think it is enough time to whip every Democrat in line not with a Democratic President leading the charge.

There is absolutely no reason to open the suspicious package, pushed by the same profiteering fucks, using the same arguments as always.

Too far upside-down on the risk to reward ratio to give a damn about what is in it enough to count on a bunch of Republicans to advance the good and stop the bad.

Just for arguments sake which TeaPubliKlan radical regressives in Congress do you think even MAYBE are going to be looking out for workers, wildlife, nature, and regulating corporations? Sure some will throw red meat "NO OBAMATRADE" but most are openly pro.

I don't see where the votes are to be found some of the areas of greatest concern are the the Republican agenda, by what means are they to be pressured when they are spreading their tentacles by definition and any friction will be subdued by the propaganda network.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of Valor. There is absolutely nothing Congressional TeaPubliKlans, Wall St, and the Chamber of Commerce are hot on that would be even moderately good.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #25)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 10:02 AM

86. Yes, it is part of advancement in technology

there is just plain less work that has to be done and that which has to be done gets easier and easier. So we have to back off this work hard puritanical values, which meant something in 1600 but can't today. The whole idea of advancement is to make life better and easier, so we can survive with a lot less work. We have had more and more leisure as the centuries go by. But it shouldn't mean more poor people - it didn't before.

There was this special in TV panicking that Chinese people were starting to be able to afford washing machines and refrigerators. Like that was a bad thing. I guess they were more worried about the environment than the comfort of Chinese people, or if their concern was that the environment would be affected negatively then why do Americans get to be the only ones with washing machines and refrigerators?

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:28 AM

31. Yeah, we're all just chumps.

 

Thanks for setting us straight.



/bye.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:53 AM

35. There is a way. They are called import tariffs.

Make them high enough that any race to the bottom country will pay more to import than if they were made here or in other countries with environment, labor, safety, child labor, union, climate change rules. Make them REALLY hurt, like by 100% above. That will kill that game quick and restore countries to health and encourage the race to bottom countries to improve because they will be at disadvantage

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Response to on point (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:58 AM

37. And then our exports also go away

That would make trade more or less cease, and knock about 30% off our GDP

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Response to Recursion (Reply #37)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:11 AM

38. 30% GDP drop is acceptable

 

If you remove the 1% leach class from the picture.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/apr/19/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-99-percent-new-income-going-to/

Bernie Sanders says 99 percent of 'new' income is going to top 1 percent

The average income for the richest 1 percent of Americans, excluding capital gains, rose from $871,100 in 2009 to $968,000 from 2012-13, he wrote. The 99 percent, on the other hand, experienced a drop in average incomes from $44,000 to $43,900, Wolfers said. The calculation excludes government benefits in the form of Social Security, welfare, tax credits, food stamps and so on.



968,000/43,900=22.5, so only about an 8% drop to the people left in an isolated USA. And it is really less than that because the numbers exclude capital gains.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:35 AM

40. Fair enough

I totally acknowledge that that is a viable view. It's not the one I share, but you're actually owning what you're saying to its conclusion.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #40)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:48 AM

46. Rmoney was correct about makers and takers

 

He just had it reversed.

I work at a multinational conglomerate and have worked at others before. What these Corporations do is by out businesses and then extort the local operations to pay them or else. They do not do anything to help the businesses but expect to get paid 10s or 100s of millions every quarter or they mothball the place. They add nearly zero value to the company, just strip off all they can from it and then discard the carcass including all of the people employed there.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #46)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:49 PM

94. Leeches and bloodsuckers

That's all they are

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 02:57 AM

36. KnR for complex thinking. Isolationism is not the answer. Wishful thinking won't get us there either

nt

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:25 AM

39. As long as trade agreements contain

ISDS , I will always be against them. It's undemocratic.

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Response to octoberlib (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:36 AM

41. ISDS lets AFL-CIO sue Mexico for preventing workers from organizing

They have a 70% success rate.

If you're against that, in the name of national sovereignty, I can respect that, but that's not where I stand.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:39 AM

42. Unrecommended to the max.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:40 AM

44. So, make an argument (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:53 AM

47. I have never agreed with a post you have made since I have been on DU. Not a single one.

Your propaganda on trade is but one example.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:55 AM

48. I have agreed with several of yours. The difference is, I bring evidence to back up my claims.

So, make an argument based on evidence for your position.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:10 AM

50. You bring corporate talking points on one issue after another. You call it evidence.

We're done here.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #50)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:05 AM

54. "Corporate" is a lazy word.

The world is more complex than that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:05 AM

53. Evidence? Puh-leeze! NOT A SINGLE LINK IN YOUR OP

Just a load of exaggeration, supposition and corporate spin.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:06 AM

55. OK, so make the opposite argument

Argue that there's a way to bring mass manufacturing employment back.

Stop acting like this is a high school clique thing where you're facing off against the "corporatists" or "neoliberals" or whatever the word is now.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:23 AM

59. That'd be like "arguing with" the Black Knight

Debating you is like shooting fish in a barrel. You've got not a single piece of hard evidence to back up your exaggerated claims. You're all hat and no cattle, baby!

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Response to Divernan (Reply #59)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:38 AM

76. You just lost Divernan. nt

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:02 AM

51. It's available on line, so stop the "after I read it" I may be against it spiel.

You state, "After I read it I may well be against it." Well, what's stopping you from reading it? And after you do, if you want to debate its merits, include references to page and line numbers for what you may claim it says.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #51)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:04 AM

52. No, it's not (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #52)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:16 AM

56. Wikileaks is your friend - well not yours, but the rest of us.

As the Obama administration praises the benefits of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), backlash continues to grow against the deal. WikiLeaks has just published another section of the secret text — this one about public healthcare and the pharmaceutical industry. Newly revealed details of the draft show the TPP would give major pharmaceutical companies more power over public access to medicine and weaken public healthcare programs. The leaked draft also suggests the TPP would prevent Congress from passing reforms to lower drug costs. One of the practices that would be allowed is known as "evergreening." It lets drug companies extend the life of a patent by slightly modifying their product and then getting a new patent.
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/6/11/backlash_against_tpp_grows_as_leaked

As negotiations continue, WikiLeaks has published leaked chapters of the secret Trans-Pacific Partnership — a global trade deal between the United States and 11 other countries. The TPP would cover 40 percent of the global economy, but details have been concealed from the public. A recently disclosed "Investment Chapter" highlights the intent of U.S.-led negotiators to create a tribunal where corporations can sue governments if their laws interfere with a company’s claimed future profits. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange warns the plan could chill the adoption of health and environmental regulations. http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/27/julian_assange_on_the_trans_pacific

Watch more from our Julian Assange interview: Part 1 || Part 3 || Part 4 || Part 5
Transcript

WikiLeaks releases today 17 secret documents from the ongoing TISA (Trade In Services Agreement) negotiations which cover the United States, the European Union and 23 other countries including Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Australia, Pakistan, Taiwan & Israel -- which together comprise two-thirds of global GDP. "Services" now account for nearly 80 per cent of the US and EU economies and even in developing countries like Pakistan account for 53 per cent of the economy. While the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) has become well known in recent months in the United States, the TISA is the larger component of the strategic TPP-TISA-TTIP 'T-treaty trinity'. All parts of the trinity notably exclude the 'BRICS' countries of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

The release coincides with TISA meetings at the ministerial level at the OECD in Paris today (3–5 June). The 'T-treaty trinity' of TPP-TISA-TTIP is also under consideration for collective 'Fast-Track' authority in Congress this month.

The TISA release today follows the WikiLeaks publication of the secret draft financial services annex of the TISA negotiations on 19 June 2014 showing the aim to further deregulate the financial sector, despite widespread consensus that lack of oversight and regulation was the main cause of the last global financial crisis of 2008. Today's release confirms the ongoing determination to deregulate. Furthermore, standstill clauses will tie the hands of future governments to implement changes in response to changing environment.

Today's release is the largest on secret TISA documents and covers numerous previously undisclosed areas. It contains drafts and annexes on issues such as air traffic, maritime, professional services, e-commerce, delivery services, transparency, domestic regulation, as well as several document on the positions of negotiating parties. WikiLeaks has also published detailed expert analysis of the topics covered in today's release.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/03/1390318/-TPP-BREAKING-Wikileaks-Leaks-New-Documents


And just for fun.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/12/1392695/-Obama-on-Hill-Now-and-try-seeing-this-TPP-text-online#
htpps://www.readthetpp.com/

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Response to Divernan (Reply #56)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:18 AM

57. I'll wait until the actual text is passed back to Congress (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:19 AM

58. Manufacturing employment has been declining in all developed countries for 30-40 years.

That includes Germany and the Scandinavian countries even as their manufacturing output increases as it has in the US. Much of the employment decline is due to technology since there has been no decline in manufacturing output. However, these countries know how to protect the health of their workers and middle class despite this decline. As Bernie, as said - why can't we be more like Scandinavia?

republicans tried to protect American workers (or, more likely, the profits of the American corporations that supported their party and did not like competition in the US market) in the 1920's with higher tariffs and lower immigration. It did not work. But the 'magic' of tariffs as a way to solve domestic economic problems has never died, particularly among the right-wing base.

It did cause a big decline in imports and exports but did less than nothing for American workers. Income inequality hit historically high levels that we have still not equaled even in our current extreme inequality.

FDR knew trade restrictions did not work so he got rid of them and tried to set up a post-war world where national legislatures would have a difficult time falling back to the 'magic' of tariffs to solve problems. Of course, FDR also knew, as do Scandinavian countries today, that high/progressive taxes, strong safety nets and effective support for unions are just as necessary as trade.

That's a lesson that the US has effectively forgotten. Many, even on the left, look to a Coolidge/Hoover solution - restricted trade - rather than an FDR solution more trade and high/progressive taxes, strong safety nets and effective support for unions.

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Response to pampango (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:56 AM

62. +1

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:34 AM

64. Bullshit.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #64)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:36 AM

65. Care to expand on that? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #65)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:41 AM

66. They have such a strong argument, no?

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:45 AM

69. I know. It damn near convinces me every time (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #65)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:42 AM

67. Major corporate lying bullshit.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #67)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:43 AM

68. Can we get slightly more concrete? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:52 AM

70. Save for the prols.

I have no interest in being shilled.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:05 AM

72. And there is nothing we can do if they wish to sell it in America...

Or if they want to use the tax laws of this country to their advantage. There is nothing we can do?

Do you really believe that?

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Response to kentuck (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:15 AM

73. Who are "they" and what is "it"? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #73)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:22 AM

75. They are those taking the jobs overseas...

and it is the nothing we can do about it, according to you. We live in a global economy.

I would say that America is still the favorite marketplace of the world. We buy. They sell.

We have a $500 billion dollar trade deficit. Do you understand how that translates to jobs?

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:16 AM

74. It's not just manufacturing jobs -

Last edited Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:08 AM - Edit history (1)

in the large office where I work there were over 300 secretaries 25 years ago. Now, there are 29. Why? Computers.

There are online businesses hawking the merits of work-from-home jobs. Many of these jobs with decent pay and benefits were once in offices. Now, you're often in competition with people from all over the world and working for peanuts. Benefits are limited to not much more than being able to work in your pajamas. A typical typing/transcribing job pays by the "audio hour." So, if one of these employers states it pays $10 an audio hour (which is considered good), don't get excited. That works out to an actual $3.00 an hour, because it generally takes 3 minutes of typing to transcribe 1 minute of audio.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:42 AM

77. If our tariffs weren't practically non-existant our jobs would not be off-shored

Compared to other countries we don't protect our manufacturers with tariffs that put imported goods at a disadvantage to domestically manufactured goods.

That's why the jobs are going.

If corporations can get away with paying peanuts to workers in foreign country plants and then importing their goods here with little or no tariffs, even with importations costs they're still making out like bandits so why would they keep plants open here where they have to pay living wages to Americans?

They won't and they don't. Our trade policies don't protect American workers and jobs, they work in favor of profitable corporations who want to be even more profitable (more money for executive compensation don't you know).

There is no loyalty to American workers or to America. It's all about CEOs and other top executives making even more money by cutting labor costs.

It's always cut, cut, cut. Austerity = humongous profits for the 1%, lost jobs and lower living standards for the 99%.

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:40 AM

81. I've never said I didn't want trade agreements.

I don't want "free" trade. That's a different thing.

I want trade agreements based on rigorous environmental and labor standards. I want regulation of what we all to be imported into this country, based on those same standards. And I want U.S. companies who continue to outsource to pay a massive premium in taxes.

I'm open to all kinds of ideas on how to handle trade. None of them are "free."

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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 09:57 AM

85. now now stop with the reality

we don't need that here! We want to dream we can be isolated and still rule the world! Which we are entitled to do! We may not be allowed to interfere militarily, but economically we should always be on top and the rest of the world should stay poor, so there!



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Response to Recursion (Original post)

Sat Jun 13, 2015, 10:08 AM

89. There is nuance to what you are saying

that people don't want to hear.

that said, I think there is a lot more packed into this thing past factors that effect where jobs are that are good grounds to be against it.

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