We Should Lay off Using Romney's Mormon Beliefs as a Criticism

[MineralMan]

To start off, I'm an atheist, so this has nothing to do with my own beliefs. I consider all religions to be based on mythology and superstition. But, there's a temptation to criticize Romney based on his religion. I think that's a real mistake, especially when it's done in a mocking way or uses ridicule of the religion as part of the criticism. Here's why:

In 2008, when President Obama was running for his first term, the opposition made an attempt to cast him as a Muslim. We all objected to that, since it was both not true and wouldn't matter if it were true.

JFK was criticized for his Catholic background by his opposition. That was the wrong thing to do, too. He had to give a speech about it.

Romney is a Mormon. It's just as wrong to criticize him for his membership in the LDS church as it was to call Obama a Muslim or JFK a Catholic as a way to criticize him.

Romney's politics are all that is needed for more than adequate criticism. Criticizing religious beliefs is a very risky business, especially if it's done in a way that ridicules the religion in the process. That kind of criticism backfires as often as not, and is simply not the thing to do. The whole "magic underwear" meme is a false flag when used to criticize a Presidential candidate.

We all rightly criticized the right for using the Muslim nonsense against Obama. We rightly criticized campaign strategies that tried to negatively associate JFK with Catholicism. We needn't stoop to ridiculing Romney's religion. It's a bad idea. It makes us look foolish. There are plenty of other things to criticize about Romney, like tying his dog to the top of his car and his blindness to the state of so many people's livelihoods.

I have no religion. Others do. That's a personal deal, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their politics.

Harry Reid is also a Mormon. Does he wear the "magic underwear?" I don't know, and it's none of my business. But, you're ridiculing his beliefs, too, when you ridicule Romney for being a Mormon. Are you sure that's what you want to do?

[Erose999]

1. Mormon's an Christians are about equally crazy in their beliefs. But the Christians get a pass in

our culture because they had their crazy beliefs first, lol.

[cali]

3. Christianity certainly doesn't get a pass here.

[Fumesucker]

4. Kind of a Newton's third law of politics...

The attitude here by many is a reaction to Christianity getting a "pass" in the wider culture.

[MineralMan]

10. Which candidates are being ridiculed for being Christians?

I must have missed that.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

56. ahem. I do. Frequently, especially

last time around, when not one of the GOPers dared say that they believed in evolution.

[CreekDog]

126. My theory on criticizing faith: if it would be criticized as BS outside a church then go ahead

that it's someone's belief doesn't make the indefensible defensible.

for example, the years of racial discrimination against black people, denying them the priesthood --which really meant denying them the full participation as human beings in their faith and even relegating them to the lesser levels of heaven!

indefensible! though they changed it in 1978, what someone thought of it or how they reacted is fair.

[backscatter712]

53. Fair point.

Ha! Look at those Mormons! They believe God sent his angel down from the planet Kolob, to put magic golden plates in the ground, that convicted con man Joseph Smith conveniently found, read with magic glasses, and used to write the Book of Mormon. And they wear magic underwear!

Of course, we say this in a nation dominated by a religion where a naked couple gets the entire human race cursed because they were talked into eating a magic fruit that made them smart by a talking snake, whose primary deity sent his son on a suicide mission, which wasn't really a suicide mission because after he died, he got better, but because he got himself killed, God will let us into heaven (even though he could have unilaterally done so without the son-killing.) Now to honor his suicide son, we all wear execution devices around our necks. Makes sense to me!

[daaron]

86. Hm. This type of depiction can be made about any religion. nt

[backscatter712]

113. Why do you think I'm an atheist? n/t

[Arugula Latte]

165. Yeah, and doesn't it make you wonder why people buy into that nonsense?

[SammyWinstonJack]

96. Well, when you put it that way...

[backscatter712]

176. Oh, and don't forget about the ritual cannibalism and vampirism of the deity!

From an outside point of view, Christianity is fucking twisted!

[cali]

2. I find Mormonism fascinating. I'm not going to silence myself because a Mormon is running

[MineralMan]

9. That's not what I'm talking about.

DU has a Religion Group, where people talk about various religions. It's pretty lively. I'm talking about using ridicule of a religion to criticize a candidate. That's a completely different issue.

[DCKit]

44. Exactly. We're not criticizing, just asking people to learn more about it.

Broadening the horizons or our fellow Americans and encouraging religious tolerance through education and understanding is the way forward. Everyone, especially women, should know who and what they're voting for when they vote anyone who wears their religion on their sleeve and touts their beliefs as a qualification for elected office.

However, as stated in the OP, the RNC pulled no punches with the Muslim garbage (or in 1959 re: Catholicism), so they put religion on the table. If it's on the table, we'd be stupid not to exploit it as they have.

If we're not going to use every weapon at out disposal and play in the gutter with them, we're not going to make the kind of gains we need to make in 2012. We can't afford to ignore any opportunity, even though most of us would never go there in any other situation.

[FreeState]

196. Do you really think that's what the majoriety of Mormon threads are doing?

I'm a former member and I find that a little disingenuous, mostly because I've read the threads and a good portion of what is being written as fact is indeed slander and half truths.

[fruitsmoothie45]

5. Honestly.

If we don't want Christians criticizing our religious beliefs (or lack thereof), we shouldn't be criticizing others'.

[kestrel91316]

6. I'll continue to mock his Mormonism because that's half of my own

family heritage and I have plenty to beef about.

[jp11]

7. I agree.

I don't really care about the 'crazy' things he believes all religions have 'crazy' things in them. Some follow some 'crazy' parts and some have moved on to embrace the 'good' things the religion teaches, or least that is the idea though the followers might not embrace it.

Mormonism as I see it is no different than any other faith there are bad things about it and there are some good things with people who are part of it and take the good from it and apply it to their lives as well as those who take the bad and use it be hateful/hurtful etc.

[Brickbat]

8. I think discussing Mormonism in general can be useful and important, especially as a way to

illustrate the birth and propagation of many other religions. So in general, I disagree about laying off the criticizing and digging into Mormonism. I do agree that it can backfire when done crudely.

I find Harry Reid's belief in Mormonism as odd as Romney's. It's a strange, strange religion.

[MineralMan]

15. But religion is a poor predictor of politics, frankly.

I brought up Harry Reid to illustrate that point.

Romney's politics suck. Reid's not so much.

Discussing Mormonism in general isn't a problem. There's a whole group on DU for discussions about religion. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about ridiculing a religion as a means of criticizing a candidate. I find that unappealing and not useful.

[earthside]

20. Harry Reid. That's a good one.

If Mormonism has anything to do with it ... well, if Reid is a predictor of behavior, then we can expect a 'Pres. Rmoney' to be weak, ineffective and spineless?

: :

[sufrommich]

31. Which religion isn't "strange"? nt

[MineralMan]

43. Whichever one a person follows, it seems to me.

People don't seem to think their own religion is strange. As an atheist, I'm an equal opportunity unbeliever. They're all "strange" to me.

[Brickbat]

47. They all are. Mormonism is just one of the "strange, strange" ones.

There's a continuum of strange.

[obamanut2012]

145. +1

[FSogol]

11. I agree. Plently of other things to bash Romney with. n/t

[enough]

12. I agree completely. As an atheist, and a citizen, I am appalled by the focus on religion as a

requirement for holding high office. I hope that if I were a Christian or a member of any other religion, I would still think the same on this issue.

[HereSince1628]

13. I do think we need to recognize that there are many LDS who are democrats.

And there are many democrats, and DU members who belong to religions which have beliefs and engage in practices that might seems strange to others.

But religious freedom is a right to be exercised within the membership, it is not a shield against criticism of any bad public policy that the religion promotes for all citizens of the nation.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

62. We can agree that "that there are many LDS who are democrats" if there is a factual basis.

Is there one that you can point to? If so, I would appreciate the additional information.

I'm under the belief that most people in Utah, where the LDS concentrate, are and have always been Republicans. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong, however.

[newspeak]

88. um, having lived in utah, there are not many mormons who are democrats

there's a joke in utah, about the democrat being the repug who drew the short straw. And those who believe in unions, labor rights are apparently razzed at church (at least that's what my friend who's father was a union rep exclaimed).

I have no problem with someone's religion, IF they do not have the goal of shoving that belief system on others; especially by passing bills to further that goal. There are some churches who actually believe that we should all believe the same, because everyone knows they're church is the RIGHT one, all others are just wrong. Now, someone who believes that, would be quite scary as president.

The mormon church has a very corporatized mindset. I've worked and debated with some about their business views. There is a mindset the property taxes, auto taxes are unfair-taxes on food and necessities is the only fair tax because everyone has to pay for them. That the poor shouldn't be helped with not paying taxes. In other words, if you're doing great money wise (doesn't matter if you screwed employees or customers), you shouldn't have to be burdened with paying taxes on things like property just because you have the means to own some; but those who are poor, who can hardly make ends meet should have to pay for food that they must have to keep them and their family from starving. Some in the church, to my way of thinking, have a very disturbing perception. And it comes back on entitlement. Who is worthy and who is not? That's the mindset.

[protect our future]

89. "Is there one that you can point to?"

Yes. Me. Along with being a Mormon Democrat, I'm also a Democratic activist and campaign donor. Does that count?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

95. No. That does not support that "that there are many LDS who are democrats".

No link. No study. No statistics.

The word "one" does not refer to one Mormon who is a Democrat (there are many, including Reid) but to one source for the statement that "that there are many LDS who are democrats".

[protect our future]

101. I think you replied to my post

with a non sequitur, as I understand the definition of that phrase.

[newspeak]

107. I'm glad you're a democrat

however, my friends who are democrats, even though raised mormon, most are not now active in the mormon church, do not follow the dictates of their bishop.

I'm saying, that yes, there may be some democrats within the mormon church; however, most are not democrats.

[protect our future]

143. I agree, newspeak,

and I hope some day there will be more Dems in my church. I, too, became an inactive church member for several years due to political differences but I am glad I decided to go back.

[obamanut2012]

146. Jack Mormons

[MineralMan]

92. Harry Reid is a Mormon.

There's one prominent Democrat who is a member of the LDS Church.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

97. And not one source for the statement that "that there are many LDS who are democrats".

Not one link. Not one study.

If there is a source for the statement that "that there are many LDS who are democrats," where is it?

[hughee99]

168. 14% of Mormons prefer Democrats, compared to 59% Repukes

According to this anyway.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home2/53110048-183/mormons-utah-lds-party.html.csp

According to this, Mormons comprise about 1.7% of the US population or according to this, roughly 6 million in the US, which would be about 840,000 LDS democrats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon

They even have their own caucus in the Utah State Democratic party.
http://ldsdems.org/

[AnotherMcIntosh]

190. Interesting, Thanks. n/t

[HereSince1628]

105. Here's a link for one...

http://www.utahdemocrats.org/

[AnotherMcIntosh]

130. That is not a link to support "that there ARE AS MANY LDS who are democrats"

Here since 1687

[MineralMan]

134. I believe you've added a word to what that DUer posted.

Can you find it?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

151. Thank you. I stand corrected.

[FBaggins]

14. We don't have to.

Many in the religious right will do it for us... then we can (justifiably) criticize them for making an issue of it (which will likely make things worse for them).

[jwirr]

19. The rw is the ones most likely to stay home rather than vote for a Mormon. Unless of course they

are bigotted against the black man. Then they will put aside their ideals and vote for anyone who opposes him.

[Vincardog]

17. Romney is a Mormon. Obama IS NOT a Muslim see any difference? Can we point out about Dominionists?

[HiPointDem]

123. Point out what? Is Romney a dominionist?

IMO it's a question of tone & topic.

Mormons' magic underwear affects no one's life -- it's not a political issue any more than Sikhs' habit of wearing turbans or Catholics' rosary beads are, so why MAKE FUN of people for those things -- which is what we're doing when we mock them under the smokescreen of political discussion, especially in the nasty tone such attacks usually take?

What is this but bullying and bigotry, and from the very people who declare themselves to be steadfastly against bullying and bigotry.

OTOH, there are legitimate political discussions concerning religion. Things like the dominionists' stated belief in theocracy, tax policy/lobbying for religious orgs, the channeling of public monies to religious orgs or their surrogates, the stance of religious orgs on the issues of the day, etc.

[jeff47]

18. Could you provide some examples of such criticism from our side?

The only attacks I've seen on Romney about Mormonism come from the right, or are from people without much of a megaphone.

Unless you meant this to be a criticism of random people on the Internet.

[MineralMan]

24. Sure. There are two such threads on the first page of GD today.

Here's one of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=680813

Here's another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=683349

[jeff47]

76. So you're complaining about random people on the Internet, then? (nt)

[daaron]

93. The second one isn't an attack on Romney. nt

[sufrommich]

21. It's like believing Snow White is nonsense,

but Sleeping Beauty speaks the truth!

[Bake]

22. Frankly, whatever it takes to win.

Yeah, I know. It sucks. But the other side does it with a vengeance. This is one instance where frankly I don't give a rat's ass about the high moral ground. If the fundies don't want to vote for a Mormon (and who could blame them?), let's make sure they're reminded of it.

Bake

[NNN0LHI]

23. If a Scientologist or a Moonie were running for president would religious beliefs be off the table?

[MineralMan]

27. For me, they would be off the table.

That said, I can't imagine either would have a chance to run for President. I also don't expect an atheist candidate for President. It's not going to happen.

[NNN0LHI]

34. Same goes for a Creativity Movement adherent?

Off the table?

Don

[MineralMan]

60. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that.

I'll have to Google it, I guess.

On Edit: OK, googled. Believers in that movement are openly racist and anti-semitic. So, there would be no problem in opposing them on those grounds alone. I doubt if we're going to see a Creativity Movement Presidential candidate in my lifetime. I did know about it, but as the "Church of the Creator." I guess I'm behind the times.

[NNN0LHI]

71. The Mormon Church excluded African-Americans from leadership until 1978

Would you have a problem opposing Romney for supporting an organization that had that position well into his adulthood?

Don

[MineralMan]

73. Not because of his religion. I'd have a look at how many black people were in

leadership in his campaign staff. The LDS church changed its doctrine in 1978. It no longer holds the position it held before. What's Romney's position? Just look at his campaign staff leadership, and you'll see it clearly.

[obamanut2012]

149. He allowed an openly gay staffer to be hounded from his post

[MineralMan]

153. Yes, he did, which demonstrates his prejudice.

Yet another reason not to vote for him. He is telegraphing his positions very nicely, so we can all judge them. He's no friend to LGBT voters, that's for sure.

[hughee99]

169. Would you have opposed JFK because the Catholic Church excluded women from leadership?

There's lots of reasons to oppose Romney. You don't need to use guilt-by-association when he's got plenty of guilt all his own.

[NNN0LHI]

170. If he had been promoting such practices in his speeches you God damn right I would have

But he didn't.

Did he?

If Romney wasn't promoting bigoted stances in his speeches there would be no problem.

But he does.

Doesn't he?

Can you see the difference?

Don

[hughee99]

224. And since Romney promotes bigoted stances in his speeches

you don't need to make the issue the church that Romney belongs to, you can make the issue his OWN WORDS.

[obamanut2012]

148. But yet LDS are both of those

As well as against women and LGBT. You also might want to read up on what Scientologists believe about all of this.

So, are only some religions and sects off limits if they believe this? Which ones?

[MineralMan]

154. Yes, and the candidate has made his own positions clear as well.

The Roman Catholic Church also is anti-woman in many ways, and anti-LGBT. However, there are many, many Democratic candidates who are Catholic but who do not share those views. Again, look at the individual candidate and his or her positions on such issues.

Religion is far less relevant than a candidate's stated positions.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

66. With all due respect, I think that all modern Presidents have been atheists.

They just profess to be religious when it suits them.

Under what identifiable guiding religious principles have any of them ruled?

None of them have ever displayed the religious convictions of an Oliver Cromwell.

[MineralMan]

74. You might be correct, but all publicly professed Christianity.

More or less, anyhow. It seems to be a requirement for election. Now, whether or not they actually believed is another, and personal, matter.

[The Magistrate]

25. Nonesense, Sir: There are people Who Do Not Want To Vote For a Mormon, And That Should Be Exploited

We on the left really have to get over this ridiculous compulsion to try and treat blood-foes fairly....

[sufrommich]

29. Then we shouldn't complain about religion taking

a front seat in politics. I don't want any religion being mocked as somehow less sane than other religions. The whole point to me is, leave your religion in church, it doesn't belong in my government, no matter which religion it is.

[Bake]

115. That's the point: Religion already HAS taken a front row seat!

We ignore it at our peril.

Bake

[The Magistrate]

172. Hardly, Sir: the Other Fellow's Religion Is Clearly Wrong, Evil, Even, And Has No Place In Politics

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[AnotherMcIntosh]

38. Absolutely!

[Zorra]

132. When Mormons stop telling lies about the LGBT community, we will stop telling the truth about them.

Until then, what goes around comes around.

No quarter.

[daaron]

188. Really well said.

What's more, it seems to me that the OP's proposed "Hands off the candidate's religion" rule is flagrantly violated by the RW, who would see it as weakness. If this is the "take the high road" argument, I would propose that the issue is even more nuanced than the OP has proposed.

That is, it's too binary to say "Stick to the issues," or "The candidate's religion is out of bounds." The generalization of at least one necessary exception would be the candidate (and there are many examples on both sides of the aisle) who actively inserts their religion into public policy and political campaigns. These exceptions choose to force their religion to be an issue in the campaign in order to either pander to their constituency, bait their opponent, etc.

Marriage equality has brought all the haters out of the back woods, and petite theocrats nationwide are on the war-path and utilizing a truly dizzying array of tactics, both legal and otherwise, in this their last-ditch effort to make Earth miserable enough to lure Jesus back. If you ask me, progressive candidates and their supporters should be operating along parallel trajectories to countermand each inroad against the wall of separation, and making every effort to fully analyze each situation to find the most effective methods to preserve that wall.

Outliers are illustrative: James Inhofe. His climate denialism is dangerous and endangering us all, yet he consistently states that climate change is a hoax because the Bible says so, and that is what he prefers to base public policy on...

I think the OP is going to find it incredibly difficult to get more strident non-believers on board with a campaign that finds ridiculing climate change deniers as "flat-earthers" more insulting than climate change denialism.

[Cali_Democrat]

178. Exactly.

[ibegurpard]

197. hell yes

I was raised a Mormon. I wouldn't want the majority of them in any decision-making roles. Yes, there are many good and decent Mormons but it's not a religion that encourages free-thinking and it enforces conformity and authoritarian thinking. It should most definitely be used to exploit people's uncomfortableness with it.

[Agony]

209. for being so stuffy you do have a way with words...

[joshcryer]

219. Precisely. We're too soft on issues that really matter, but are "touchy."

[ChairmanAgnostic]

26. absolutely disagree. Vehemently, if truth be told.

Mormonism is a sick set of belief systems. As are many other christian cults.

Look, if the GOP nominee was someone who believed that this universe was 7000 years old, that stem cells were a mortal sin, that blood transfusions would insult god, that rotating crops or not having your bloody bedsheets was sinful (worthy of stoning, no less), then clearly their belief system would have an impact on their presidency.

Such idiocy would not only be a foreign relations disaster, making us the laughing stock of the world, but it would lead to policies internally that would fuck up our nation forever.

Mormonism is insane. Its bishops, like Romney, are nuts. Their belief system will cause incredible harm to this country.

OF COURSE it is a topic of interest. Do you really think that by ignoring the most insane and inane aspects of his religion, his entire belief system, that it will go away? Here's a shovel. Why not dig a hole in the sand and gently place your head inside. I am sure that will do as much good as your recommendation.

[quinnox]

28. Or at least people should know to post religion focused OPs in the religion forum. FYI to all duers,

general discussion does not allow threads having to do with religion. Its the same idea as the guns topics prohibition, one thread inevitably spawns a dozen, because this topic can be quite interesting and controversial, so its limited to certain forums only. So if you want to criticize or bash Mormonism please do it in the appropriate forum, that is the religion forum.

Note I think this thread is fine, it is talking about tactics, and is appropriate here. I agree with the OP, it makes no sense to focus on Mormonism when President Obama is a Christian and believes in all that kind of thing, such as Jesus was the son of God, etc.

It's very hypocritical to bash Mormonism and leave Obama out of it as if he is somehow different or better in having a religious belief, just because it is a "mainstream" religion like Christianity.

[Nye Bevan]

30. Romney believes that God communicated his plans to man in upstate NY in the 19th century.

Barack Obama believes that God communicated his plans to man in Palestine in the first century.

Is one of these beliefs really more incredible than the other?

[sufrommich]

35. +1. I'm amazed so many think there is an actual difference.

[MineralMan]

37. Both are incredible to me.

However, it's unlikely that we'll have an atheist as a candidate for President anytime soon. So, I assume the candidates will hold some sort of religious belief. Whether they hold it securely or loosely is something we usually don't know. I'm looking at their political statements not their church when I decide about voting. The religious stuff, unless it is reflected in their political statements, is beside the point, IMO.

[zappaman]

40. In that case, Romney's make more sense than Obama's...

since there was a telegraph in the 19th century for god to communicate with.

[SoutherDem]

32. I agree to a point

I too am an Atheist, so I really don't care what myth people believe in or pray to, nor their underwear, he can go commando as far as I am concerned as long as he keeps his pants on.

However, there is one area where his Mormonism may need to at least be pointed out if not examined closely.

I did grow up in the church, first pentecostal, then Southern Baptist. Both considered Mormons a cult, no different than Satanism, Islam, Jehovah Witness or any other group that didn't follow their flavor of religion and took great offense and exception when Mormons or Jehovah Witness called themselves Christians. Even during the primary that was the feeling by many. Now all at once Mormons are in the brethren with no more difference than Baptist and Methodist, same basic faith that is practiced a little different.

I know they are not going to follow Obama, that is not the point. It is the hypocrisy.

Going back to the Obama Muslim issue, why would it be wrong to ask why it was so bad 4 years ago for a cult/non-christian to be president, yet today it is fine. If it takes pointing out the differences between Mormons and Baptist or any Christian religion so be it.

Just my point of view.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

33. No thank you. Although I'm not Black, if the Mormons have the remnants of anti-Black and

we're-superior-to-Blacks attitudes as a carryover from their Book of Mormon teaching, I'll criticize them whenever I want.

Although I too am an atheist, I'm a descendant of Quakers who were actively involved in the underground railroad. Some of my other ancestors fought in the Civil War while having strong convictions about the immorality of slavery. I have carried on certain family traditions, including being involved with Civil Rights activities.

Although Mormons purportedly had recent conversion away from their we're-superior-to-Blacks philosophy and teachings, I'm not buying it.

Give Rmoney a pass? No thank you. If he or his followers happen to be hypersensitive with respect to some of their shared beliefs, including wearing magic underwear, that's too bad.

In other aspects of your post, however, I agree with you.

[sufrommich]

39. "I'm a descendant of Quakers "

So was Richard Nixon. It's got nothing to do with anything.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

45. Wrong. The difference is that Nixon did not remain true to Quaker traditions.

Do you somehow think that he did?

Who killed more in the unnecessary Viet Nam war, LBJ or Nixon?

[sufrommich]

51. Yeah, some people don't remain true to their

religious tenets, that's the problem. There isn't a religion in the world that can't be turned on it's head to mean whatever a believer says it means. One is the same as the other.

[MineralMan]

46. Excellent point.

What particular religion someone professes is not a good predictor of that person's politics. We've seen that many times in history.

[MineralMan]

42. Racism, homophobia, and other bigotry

are pretty much independent of religion, it seems to me. People are what they are, and if they are racists or homophobes, that is more than adequate reason for me to oppose them in an election. But, one can be either, and be of any faith or no faith at all, so Romney's Mormonism isn't necessarily the reason for his attitudes. That he holds those attitudes is plenty for me to oppose him.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. I think that you're right. But if and when others would reject Rmoney because of certain nutty

and/or morally wrong beliefs, I seen no reason to refrain from adding to that.

I really don't care what kind of magic underwear that he wears.

[Maven]

59. "Racism, homophobia, and other bigotry are pretty much independent of religion, it seems to me."

Ever heard of Prop 8 and the LDS church's involvement in its passage? Independent of religion?

Mitt gave millions to that church. Independent of religion?

You have proven so many times how ignorant you are about these issues. Why not have a little, I don't know, humility and be glad you're still part of this community, and stop intoning grandly about the way things are to the rest of us little people?

[MineralMan]

63. Romney openly opposes marriage equality.

That is plenty of basis for opposing him. It is not only the LDS church that expresses homophobic principles. Plenty of Christian churches do that, as well. I oppose the racism and homophobia, but not because of religion. I oppose it because it is wrong. As for your personal comments, I have no response.

[Maven]

72. What you're arguing is that religion is off limits

and that a candidate for president should not be questioned about his association with and financial contributions to an ideological organization which espouses and propagates absurd and often hateful ideas on a global scale because they call themselves a church. Even when that candidate wants to claim such financial contributions as "charity."

I adamantly disagree. His choice of beliefs is absolutely ON THE TABLE and should be a subject in this campaign.

By the way, President Obama's church supports marriage equality.

[MineralMan]

79. No, I'm not arguing that at all.

I'm arguing that ridiculing religious belief as a means of campaigning against a candidate, or implying that religious belief will control the candidate's behavior in office is a losing campaign strategy.

Romney is a Mormon. That's no secret. Obama's a Christian, which is also no secret. However, neither is an indication of how they will govern. We've seen that demonstrated time after time. By looking for other clues, based on political positions each candidate takes, past performance and actions, and other factors, we get a far clearer picture of the candidate. Which sect or denomination of Christianity the candidate belongs to is not a reliable predictor of anything at all.

Worse, ridiculing a religion for its doctrines, such as the undergarment word by members of the LDS church, is a very poor approach to campaigning. This OP was prompted by just such a thing posted earlier in GD. Now, it's a legitimate thing to wonder or ask if LDS doctrines on specific issues are also the candidate's position on those specific issues. Normally, it's pretty easy to tell by seeing what the candidate says while campaigning. The LDS church opposes marriage equality. So does Romney. But, then, so do a lot of politicians who are Southern Baptists and Catholics. So, is it the LDS association that causes Romney to oppose marriage equality? Maybe, but not necessarily. For example, does Harry Reid, also a Mormon, oppose marriage equality? Or is it simply Romney's position that opposes that?

See, he's open about his opposition to something I support. So, I can't support Romney for his opposition to marriage equality, among other things. There are many political positions that lie behind my non-support of Romney, just as there are many that lie behind my support of President Obama. It has nothing to do with their respective religious beliefs. Nothing at all.

I would neither vote for or against any candidate based on his or her stated religious beliefs. Instead, I look at what they support and oppose, politically.

[EFerrari]

189. No, it's not legitimate to "wonder" if the candidate upholds this corrupt organization's positions

since he was a leader in this same organization and since that is public knowledge.

How else do you think we should stand down, MineralMan?

[longship]

36. Strongly agree! U.S. Constitution, Article VI

We'll let the Repukes violate it so that everybody can see them for what they are: intolerant bigots who simultaneously are fast to criticize people's religious beliefs (particular if you're Islamic, or a non-believer), and hypocritically cry that they're being religiously persecuted. We hear both all the time from them.

That's something us Dems cannot do, not even a little bit.

It just isn't an issue we should take up.

Now, if Rmoney puts it on the table by claiming religious persecution, we have a clear response. Who is doing the persecution, and who isn't?

That is a win for us.

[hrmjustin]

41. Mormons are weird but interesting. And they like being weird.

They consider it a badge of honor.

[MineralMan]

49. It's fun to be weird but interesting.

I suppose we all are weird but interesting, each in our own weird, interesting ways.

[Quantess]

48. His Mormonism is actually not all that interesting.

There's so much more to attack him on. His being a mormon is a relative strength, considering all his repugnant qualities and character flaws.

[harun]

83. Ditto. It has nothing to do with fairy tales and magic underwear. We all have beliefs.

Plenty of substantive issues to hit him on.

[ancianita]

50. For Americans, This Might Be A Personal Choice Among Holy Books.

Voters might want a leader whose religion is based on the same holy book as theirs -- the Holy Bible -- or whose religion is based on the Book of Mormon. Romney might want to claim that Christians and Mormons share 'service' and 'Jesus' in common, but so do Muslims whose holy book is the Q'uran. This could boil down to which holy book's words drive moral leadership.

[Ichingcarpenter]

54. Follow Me to our Planet and be a god.

Or take a comet




Or these guys



Better yet just send money to me..... your new god
Zod..... now knell.

[MineralMan]

125. Yes. Here's another one:

It's supposedly a Christian diagram. Equally silly and meaningless.

[cthulu2016]

55. "We all rightly criticized the right for using the Muslim nonsense against Obama"

Obama is, in fact, not a Muslim.

Romney is, in fact, a Mormon.

[liberal N proud]

57. We objected to them calling Obama Muslim because it was untrue

Romney is a Mormon.

Although unless he starts interjecting is religion into politics, like speaking at religious intuitions, we should leave his faith alone.

[WilliamPitt]

58. Hm.

Bush's whackadoo religious faith was fair game, appropriately.

The GOP's evangelical base doesn't believe in dinosaurs because they aren't in the Bible, and I, for one, think that is something we should talk about.

So Mitt being Mormon is off limits?

Not for me.

We're electing a president. It's called vetting. It's the point of the exercise.

[Ichingcarpenter]

64. Are we ready for a Scientologists President?

Yep, his religion is fair game because Mormons have an end game and its part of his belief system.

Fair game.

Its a President not a mayor.

[CountAllVotes]

65. +1,000,000

Fair game is right.

Just look at what Pres. Obama has been going through his entire life.

Sorry about that Mitt!

[sufrommich]

67. Which would be fine if we were ever to actually argue

that all religions a wacky, but we don't. The fact is that every president we've ever had has professed to believe in a book that tells them that the human race began with one man and a woman who started off being one of his ribs, and that a great flood came and a guy built a giant boat to save all the animals,people turned into pillars of salt and giants once roamed the Earth but a kid killed them with his slingshot. I'm all for pointing out that religion is like believing in magic, but it's not like there is any religion that doesn't. If you're going to attack a candidate for believing crazy religious nonsense, than they're all guilty.

[myrna minx]

69. I think exploring "Lying for the Lord" is imperative in the vetting process.

http://www.americablog.com/2009/05/lying-for-lord.html


http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

[gaspee]

218. Marsupials either

Next time I meet a fundy, I'm going to ask them why kangaroos aren't in the bible, LOL!

[Ganja Ninja]

61. Yeah I sort of agree.

To start with it's un-American but it also can be spun as being anti-religion.

It may be better to point out the difference between Mormonism and other forms of Christianity in the presence of right wing Evangelicals without offering an opinion. Merely assure them this is what Mitt Romney believes and leave it to them to mull over.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

70. "Whether Mormons should be considered "Christians" is a controversial and rather complicated issue."

Many Catholics and Protestants do not consider Mormons to be Christians because they believe the differences in doctrines are larger and more fundamental than those between Christian denominations.

http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/comparison.htm

[Ganja Ninja]

114. A lot of Evangelicals will try to tell you Catholics aren't Christian either. n/t

[AnotherMcIntosh]

131. You may have more experience than me. I try to avoid them. n/t

[TBF]

68. Repugs had no problem

spreading the lie that Obama was Muslim. As far as I know it is true that Romney belongs to the Mormon church, so we aren't even discussing a lie. We are discussing a true trait that may effect his decision-making as president. I think his faith is fair game. You and I know full well if you ran for office the repugs would have no problem bringing up your atheism.

[EFerrari]

75. You lay off, I'm good.

I'll lay off when the Mormon Church gets out of politics. Until then, game on.

[obamanut2012]

78. Beat me to it

LDS money was also just poured into NC to get A1 passed.

[myrna minx]

80. LDS money was instrumental for Prop 8 too.

Nah - I'm fine with it on the table too.

[EFerrari]

82. Seriously, fuck them.

And if Harry Reid wants to associate himself with such a corrupt institution, that's his right but it certainly diminishes my respect for the man.

[MineralMan]

91. Harry Reid supports marriage equality

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/05/10/482120/reid-nevada-marriage/

He's also a Mormon.

[EFerrari]

94. You miss my point.

In supporting this corrupt institution, he is supporting the undermining of our legislative process so it doesn't really matter what he SAYS he supports, he IS supporting the subversion of good public policy.

[MineralMan]

103. No, I don't miss your point at all.

The Roman Catholic Church also opposes marriage equality, and has far more political power and members than the LDS Church. Yet, we don't see objections to Democratic candidates who happen to be Catholics simple because they belong to that church. We can oppose the church's positions, but individual Catholics can and do hold different beliefs from the church to which they belong.

I have no problem with attacking either the RCC or the LDS church for its positions on any issue. I have a problem with ridiculing a church's beliefs in other areas, such as "magic underwear," as a means of criticizing a candidate.

This thread was prompted by another thread where exactly that was happening.

As it happens, both the LDS Church and Romney oppose marriage equality. However, Harry Reid, who is also a Mormon, does not. It appears that not all Mormons share that opposition. It's fair game to oppose Romney on the basis of his opposition to that, and it's fair game to oppose the Mormon Church for that same opposition. However, it is not fair game to say that all Mormons oppose marriage equality, because that is not true. It is even less fair to make a mockery of a religion's practices as a means of attacking a candidate. It is a stupid way to oppose someone.

Romney publicly holds positions on issues that can be used to campaign against him. That is more than adequate. Ridiculing him about what underwear he may or may not wear is not a worthy position of opposition.

[EFerrari]

109. I don't need to be fair to the Mormon Church. I'm not playing AYSO soccer with them.

Last edited Mon May 14, 2012, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

You be fair with them and see how that works for you.

And ridicule works because people remember it, which is exactly what we want.

[MineralMan]

87. Romney is openly opposed to marriage equality.

So are a helluva lot of people with other religious backgrounds. It's not a hidden thing. It's one of the many reasons I could never support Romney.

Harry Reid's also a Mormon. Does he oppose marriage equality? He does not, and says so publicly. He supports marriage equality. Here's a recent link:

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/05/10/482120/reid-nevada-marriage/

You see, it's not the Mormonism, per se. It's the actual position taken by the candidate. Romney opposes marriage equality. That's plenty enough to cause me not to support Romney. That's a Republican position, generally. And Republicans come in all faiths. It's the position, not the religion.

[EFerrari]

99. Yes, it is the Mormonism when the Mormon Church money floods our voting venues

to back ALEC-sponsored legislation.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

100. LDS spent lots of money in California trying to kill gay marriage

Fuck them.

[obamanut2012]

140. And also in NC

[FreeState]

198. Source for NC?

I've been informed the LDS Church has made an announcement in WA state that it's not getting involved I this falls referendum. Not sure if that's true for just WA State or other places as well.

[obamanut2012]

137. He is a public and devout adherent to a church that is inherently bigoted

Against women, against gays, and stealthily against blacks (the latter publicly until quite recently). They also like to baptize Jewish Holocaust victims. They have ruined the Boy Scouts. They give an insane amount of money to anti-orgs in order to manipulate the voting process... yet legally are not lobbyists, nor do they pay taxes.

His church has helped to take away my rights, and will continue to do so.

If President Obama was a devout Baptist or Traditionalist Catholic, or a Scientologist, I would also "attack" that. I still cannot quite forgive Obama for going on the 700 Club, but he is UCC.

So, yes, since Romney bases policy stances on religious beliefs, that religion is fair game.

[sufrommich]

85. The argument isn't that the church shouldn't be

criticized for getting into politics, it's that it shouldn't be mocked for having "crazy" beliefs. There is a difference between "the mormon church is homophobic and uses their power to promote homophobia" and "OMG, they believe in magic underwear!". One is a legitimate complaint about how they use their power, the other is comparing apples to oranges as compared to other religions.

[tallahasseedem]

186. +1

I'm right there with you!

[pa28]

205. I wish I could rec that post.

Last edited Mon May 14, 2012, 09:51 PM - Edit history (1)

The Mormon church has some extreme positions and Romney is an elder and devout member. Speaking as a voter and not a partisan Democrat I simply want him on the record. Where will he draw the line between religious doctrine and policy?

It's not off limits. We have a right to know.

[Agony]

208. Game ON!

damn you for stealing that!


I'll just associate myself with your discussion point... Cheers!

[bluestateguy]

77. No I don't agree with that

No dice.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. "We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that ...

"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." H.L. Mencken

[EFerrari]

84. LOL.

[MineralMan]

90. An excellent Mencken quotation, indeed.

Thanks!

[Solly Mack]

102. Teehee

[Zalatix]

98. I totally agree. It interferes with the pursuit of solidarity.

As you said, Harry Reid is a Mormon and he is not a Plutocrat or a minion. There are others like him. Let's quit this Mormon bashing.

[MineralMan]

108. Thanks. You get it.

[LeftyMom]

104. As a woman, I think the fact that his belief system regards women as second class citizens

is significant.

I'm opposed to all religion, but if given a choice between two I'll opt for the least harmful superstitious nonsense.

[coalition_unwilling]

106. Until that son of a bitch unequivocally apologizes for what he did

to John Lauber (and God knows how many others), I reserve the right to attack him on any and every front.

I never thought I could hate a politician more than I hated GW, but boy was I wrong.

Fuck Romney and fuck any Mormon who supports him.

[yurbud]

110. If what underwear you put on in the morning was all your religion affected, you'd be right

probably the worse thing in polite society is saying religious beliefs are off limits

people should be free to believe what they like but we should be free to ask the same kind of questions we would when buying a political ideology, a house, a car, or a blender.

If a member of your family bought a car that was known to burst into flames and kill all its occupants, you wouldn't hesitate to point that out to them out fear of popping their nice car fantasy bubble.

We should be asking equally tough questions of more respectable religions too though.

[NightWatcher]

111. No way. I don't want anyone who believes in gods from planets,

magic underwear, and other of the shit that the convicted fraudster, Smith, imagined into his religion in charge of any office in this country.

[Jack Rabbit]

112. The short answer is yes. Now, the long answer

It is not OK to criticize a candidate simply for simply for adhering to this or that religious belief. It only becomes an issue when the candidate wants to impose his religious beliefs on those of us who do not share them. Even then, it's not really what his beliefs are that is the issue but whether the government is going to force any citizen to embrace a religious belief that he doesn't share or even believes is abhorrent.

I have never seen anything to make me believe that Mr. Romney would make use the power of the government to make us all Mormons. I don't expect him to say in his State of the Union message that it is urgent that Congress pass laws to discourage drinking coffee, something that has been a morning ritual with me for about 45 years. He passes the separation of church and state test. It was a little more problematic to give Rick Santorum a pass, but then I don't see being a Roman Catholic and taught by nuns that the Crusades were a noble cause and that homosexuality is an abomination to God that should not be tolerated is an excuse for thinking there should be laws against homosexuality or that we should go to war to wipe Islam from the face of the earth. Personally, I wouldn't dream of telling Mr. Santorum that he should stop going to Mass or even that he should change his beliefs, as abhorrent as they are, just that he shouldn't expect my vote in any election for any office.

I won't vote for Mr. Romney, either, but that's because I think his ideas about economics are foolish, about foreign policy dangerous and about human rights, such as the right not to be tortured or not be be given an unwanted haircut, a wee bit too soft. There are good reasons to oppose Mitt Romney's quest to become president. That he's a Mormon is not one of them.

[MineralMan]

118. Thanks for your very logical and complete reply.

Truly.

[Major Hogwash]

116. Would you have this same attitude if Romney were a Scientologist? Or a Moony?

It's rather odd you telling everyone else to back off of criticizing Romney for his religious beliefs, when that is where he got his value system.

[MineralMan]

124. I would have the same attitude, but I consider it virtually impossible

that a Scientologist or Mooney could ever become a presidential candidate. If one did, I'd listen to their positions on issues that are important to me, and vote based on that, not their religion.

Harry Reid is also a Mormon, and he supports marriage equality.

I oppose the LDS Church's position on that issue. I also oppose Romney's position. I support Harry Reid's position. I am in favor of marriage equality, and would vote against anyone who opposed it. Some Mormons share that opposition with the church. Others do not.

I listen to what a candidate says about his or her political position, not what the church they belong to says. The Roman Catholic Church also opposes marriage equality. Should I never again vote for a Democrat who is a Catholic? Many Baptist churches also oppose marriage equality. Not all Baptists do, though. Listen to the candidate for his or her position on issues, not a preacher.

Romney makes no bones about his opposition to marriage equality. I don't have to see what his church thinks about it, although I do know their position. And I oppose them about it, just like I oppose the Roman Catholic Church on the same issue.

Listen to the candidates. They'll tell you what they support and do not support. What underwear they have on is irrelevant.

[HiPointDem]

117. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

119. No thanks....

Prop 8. They spent millions. It was their fault. They worked with NOM. There are facts about the LDS that should not get the protections of religion, because they are not religion, they are politics.
Mormons practice hermetically, in secret. Thus, they are aware that they way to keep holy things holy involves keeping them out of the way of the dealing of human society. Once anyone drags their 'holy things' into the marketplace or worse, the political arena, it is no longer holy, and it is they who defiled it. Two quotes from LDS Presidents

LDS president Gordon B. Hinckley on why he was happy Prop 8 passed : "We are not anti-gay. We are pro-family."

LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith-(when Mitt was 19) : "I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. "Darkies" are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church."

The second quote was in Look Magazine, for the general population. The first was also mass media, not some private matter. And so who made it a public issue? They did. Who made it political? They did.

[shagsak]

120. DU is a 95% agnostic/atheist site

And you want them to take it easy on religion?

Even in your first paragraph you call it mythology and superstition based - so you completely discount that some people actually DO take their religion seriously.

Sorry, but I can't take your post seriously.

[MineralMan]

121. Actually, that's not even close to being true.

Your numbers are way off.

[shagsak]

206. You are probably right

One side seems to be much more vocal to me so far. But I have just recently started paying attention.

[CanonRay]

122. As soon as the Rethugs stop talking about whether Obama is a Muslim

Till then, fair game.

[intaglio]

127. Problem Rmoney faces is the same one JFK faced

Theoretically JFK owed allegiance and submission to the Pope and Romney is subject to the will of the living (Mormon) Prophet. If the Living Prophet received a revelation that said "imprison Gays" a faithful Mormon is required to obey it. Don't believe me? Listen to their own words.

[justiceischeap]

128. I'll stop criticizing his Mormonism when he stops using his Mormonism to deny me equal rights.

Also, there are many religious scholars who view Mormonism, not as a religion, but a cult. I think their view isn't too far off the mark. Finally, a devout Mormon is supposed to answer to the Prophet. Has it been asked and answered how he would behave if the Prophet demanded he do something as a Mormon that went against our interests as Americans? As I understand the Mormon religion, if the Prophet makes a demand and you disobey, you can be kicked out of the church. I personally can't see a devote Mormon not listening to or taking advice from the Prophet.

[MineralMan]

136. Harry Reid is a Mormon. He hasn't been kicked out.

He supports marriage equality. Not all Mormons subscribe to all tenets of the LDS Church.

Romney opposes LGBT rights. That's his political position. It's one excellent reason not to vote for him. There are many others.

[justiceischeap]

139. Is Harry Reid as devout?

The thing is even if Reid is as devout there's a far cry from being a Congressman to being President, otherwise, religion wouldn't be such a huge deals in Presidential politics.

[MineralMan]

155. How should I know how devout or not devout a candidate is

about his or her religion? Instead, I ask what their position on issues is. If they state a position, that's their position. If not, then I'd have to look into background.

Most often, candidates state their positions clearly. That's how I make my decisions, not based on what religion they profess to believe.

[protect our future]

129. There is much wisdom in this thread

but there is also much misinformation as well as "spin" concerning Mormon beliefs and practices. I see one gigantic reason Romney should not become our President, and I wonder why no one seems to be focusing on it yet.

What will happen when or if Romney is faced with making a split-second decision that could bring about destruction on a global scale? We Mormons think there may be a cataclysmic event in our lifetime and are preparing for it. This is a core belief, and one that is all-important. What would Romney do in that split second? Be the Mormon "hero" who allows prophesy to become reality? Could he do that? How deeply ingrained are his beliefs that have been taught from birth? I wouldn't want to take that chance with Romney, or any other Mormon.

[MineralMan]

133. Well, for me, there are a large number of positions

Romney takes as a politician which would prohibit him from getting my vote. How he feels about cataclysm isn't really one of them, frankly.

There are so many others that have a more immediate effect. His Mormonism may shape some of his political positions, but it is the political positions I'd be voting on. I'd vote for Harry Reid, though, in a second, and he's a Mormon, too.

[daaron]

193. Excellent. I think this goes to the heart of the nuance involved.

And it is not just Mormons who believe that a cataclysmic event is on the horizon. Polls show there's a core of about 20% of the U.S. population that expects Jesus to return this year - whatever year it is!

Put another way, it isn't unreasonable for voters to demand extra assurance that their candidates do not believe in the Book of Revelations or other End Times prophecies, in a political climate in which there are credible candidates who both believe one of those myths, and believe that the fulfillment of said prophecy would be a good thing.

This is just one example of religious dogma which is fundamentally at odds with civil governance, and as citizens living in these odd times, we do have a greater duty to our country than our God to ensure that candidates who hold such detrimental beliefs are not elected to office!

[protect our future]

226. Thanks, daaron.

Well said. You've gone beyond what I was trying to get at but not quite succeeding.

[MrScorpio]

135. I agree with you

He has plenty of other avenues of vulnerability.

[99Forever]

138. I wholeheartedly disagree.

EVERYTHING a candidate for POTUS is, has, was, says, does, doesn't do, promises, lies about, hides, etc... in their entire life is fair game, without exception. EVERYTHING.

If they don't want something brought out about them, don't run for office. sorry MM, but your idea of "playing fair" gets dumbasses like The Idiot Son elected.

No thanks, that one did enough damage we might not EVER recover from it.

[Spazito]

141. I agree with you in that it isn't a political 'win'...

and takes the focus off the many, many issues about RMoney that need to be heightened and shared showing the public the very negative impact his previous actions ie Bain Capital and their job killing strategy, his history of bullying which continues today and how his current policy proposals reflect his previous actions, imo.

[obamanut2012]

142. As long as his LDS beliefs drive his policy stances

His LDS beliefs are fair game.

[EFerrari]

144. Oh, and btw, MineralMan, I don't need you micromanaging how I support Democrats

or telling me what is right and what is wrong, what is foolish or what is stupid.

Thanks.

[obamanut2012]

150. This

[MineralMan]

157. It's just an opinion.

I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do. I'm just sharing my opinion on a public discussion forum.

[EFerrari]

158. Then you are not in control of your own rhetoric.

Might be worth looking in to.

[MineralMan]

160. OK, thanks.

I'll look into it, for sure.

And then I'll keep posting my opinions, as I'm sure you will. That's what DU is about, discussing opinions.

[REP]

182. The use of "we" and "should" together was probably just an oversight

[Maven]

163. This

Thanks.

[cynatnite]

147. bush used his religion to guide him in the decision to invade Iraq...

That is when it's time to care about a president's religion. If they keep it to themselves and it's not used to make policy that harms others, then I don't give a rat's butt what any politician worships.

[Rex]

152. So you start off the title with WE and end the final sentence with YOU.

Sorry, just not buying it.

[MineralMan]

159. You needn't share my opinion, but I'll express it anyhow.

It's just an opinion. Some agree with it and some don't. We're having a discussion.

[EFerrari]

191. The idea is that you should express your opinion

and not attribute it or impose it on others. That's simple enough.

[fishwax]

156. I agree to an extent, although not all discussions of religion are created equal

I don't see much point in, say, ridiculing things like "magic underwear" or the like. A lot of the beliefs in the LDS church that people point to as silly aren't really much sillier than beliefs that are accepted as fairly mainstream.

The church's position on civil rights, the rights of women, and so on are different issues, though. The attacks on Obama aren't really similar since they were lies intended to paint Obama as "other." As for JFK, the attacks on him were rooted not in the idea that the Catholic church is (for example) opposed to reproductive rights and having matured in that tradition may influence his policies, but rather that as a catholic he would be subservient to the pope and put the interests of the church above the interests of the country.

The question of how one's policies (on reproductive rights, on the death penalty, on--less frequently, unfortunately, social programs, and so on) reconcile with the Catholic tradition that helped to form them is a question that catholic politicians continue to deal with. It isn't an inherently illegitimate line of questioning--if a candidate says "factor x is an important part of who I am," it's only natural that the electorate should want to explore what factor x means, both in general and to that candidate specifically.

As for Romney, I don't believe that he has a "divided loyalty" (as JFK was accused of and as he specifically responded to in his catholic speech), and I don't think his beliefs about his underwear will have any real influence on policy. But I do take him at his word that his religion has been central to his development as a human being, and so I think how that church has historically treated women, gays, and other minorities is not irrelevant.

[MineralMan]

161. Well, Romney's not bashful about

stating his positions in most areas. There's more than enough to put him out of the running, I think. He's solidly anti-woman, anti-LGBT, and doesn't seem to have much of a liking for ethnic or racial minorities, either, based on his staffing. No vote for Romney from this guy, that's for sure. His religion? I don't need that to see where he stands. His undies? TMI, for sure.

[eridani]

220. Sure he has a divided loyalty

What's it going to be? America or the Cayman Islands?

[truebrit71]

162. Nope. And yes I want to ridicule Harry Reid, I have nieces with bigger balls than him..

...

[MineralMan]

164. Very nice, indeed.

Thanks so much for your comment...

[truebrit71]

167. You are most welcome....

...FYI my nieces play soccer (football) so they DEFINITELY have bigger balls than 'Sack-less' Harry...

[Waiting For Everyman]

166. Nope, Romney's beliefs are comparable to Palin's

which we delved straight into and exposed, and rightly so. Rmoney's are just as dangerous to this country, having a component of "takeover of the government" to it. Oh, you didn't know about that? Well that's why it needs more exposure, not a free pass.

[progressoid]

171. Umm, well, fuck that.

You think an atheist would get such a free pass? When one does, I'll lay of the crazy religion stuff. Until then, Rmoney can give a speech defending his "religion" just like JFK and Obama had to.

[TNLib]

173. Romney was a Church Leader he needs to be vetted for his role as leader in his church.

But in theory I agree I don't think his religious beliefs should come into question unless it pertains to policy issues and how he'll govern.

And the specifics of his Mormon beliefs are no more nonsensical than a mainstream Christian's beliefs.

[EFerrari]

175. Not his beliefs but his support for an organization that tries to subvert Congress

should get the utmost scrutiny. His "beliefs", as if such a transparent hack has beliefs, well, they are just comic relief.

[TNLib]

179. Yes that would be inline with Vetting his role as a church leader

and determing what kind of influence if any will the LDS church have on his presidency. I think it's a fair question and much more important than making fun of his "magical underwear"

[EFerrari]

192. I think magic underwear is an appropriate metaphor

for the bunch of corruption that is the Mormon Church's effort to buy legislation. It's not agreeable but then, bad gun laws, excluding black people from voting or trying to hold up GLBT civil rights isn't an agreeable agenda, either.

[FreeState]

199. He was over less than .01% of the total membership

Hardly a leader (he was Bishop over 300 and Stak President over 3000 people).

[Surya Gayatri]

174. K & R (not for the OP's argument, but for the counter-arguments in the thread...)

[REP]

177. Do "we" need advice from l'uomo è mobile, qual piuma al vento?

I mean, who knows what we'll be told to think a few years from now?

[EFerrari]

181. Questo.

[REP]

185. Grazie

(I'm afraid I'm limited to Opera Italian ... my other choice was che farò senza Mineral Man?)

[KamaAina]

180. The JFK analogy doesn't hold water.

JFK was a lay Catholic. Ignorant non-Catholics were worried that he would take orders from church leadership (i.e. the Pope).

Willard the Bully was stake president (roughly equivalent to bishop of a Catholic diocese) in Boston for several years. He IS church leadership.

[Cali_Democrat]

183. No

we shouldn't.

[ProSense]

184. The problem

isn't that Romney is a Mormon. It's that he's hiding behind his religion to justify discrimination.

It's no different from a person hiding behind Catholicism to do the same: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002672077

Clearly, there is a difference between JFK and the likes of Bill Donohue.

[customerserviceguy]

187. Thank you

I agree completely. It's not the magic underwear, it's the shitstain that occupies them that concerns me.

We do not have to sink to the level of the tea partiers in order to beat them, especially not with this guy.

[apocalypsehow]

194. I'm a Catholic.

[Rhiannon12866]

195. Agreed, there are a lot more valid reasons to criticize Mittens, a whole lot

I think the religion angle only diverts attention from the important issues and he's on the wrong side of pretty much 100% of them, IMO. Very well stated.

[sarcasmo]

200. If the Democratic candidate for President was Mormon, don't you think the right

would be hitting the he is a Mormon memo every single day?

[MineralMan]

201. Of course I think they would. The right sucks.

That's the old "well, Billy started it" argument. I don't do things because someone else did. I do things because I think they're the things to do.

What the right wing does about anything is not my model of how to act. They did a similar thing with JFK over his Catholicism. That didn't work. I remember the speech JFK made about that.

I find it completely acceptable to criticize any position Romney holds. He's not shy about his positions, even though they do tend to change from time to time. If he says he opposes marriage equality, for example, I'll take him at his word. That, alone would cost him any chance of my vote, but there are dozens and dozens of other positions he holds that would keep me from ever voting for him.

He's a Mormon? OK. So's Harry Reid, and I'd vote for him to remain in his position in a second, if I lived in his state.

I don't give a crap what someone's stated religion is. I care what a person says he or she stands for. It is those public positions that get or lose my vote, not religious beliefs or holy underwear.

[peasant one]

207. I agree in part

I think that ridicule such as this is inappropriate. However, if there were two candidates with identical positions on the issues I was concerned with and one was Mormon and the other had beliefs that were more similar to my own--I would vote for that second person. I think most people would agree with that -- therefore it must at least be vetted and understood and is a factor in understanding a candidate's background and experience.

[SpartanDem]

202. No, we need to swift boat this asshole

if using his eligion against hom does the job so be it

[Electric Monk]

203. When I see threads like this I miss the Unrec function. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

204. Leave it to the evangelicals. They'll rip him plenty for it.

[DirkGently]

210. The Mormon Church is a huge, big-hitter political unit. Fair game.

I think there's a case to be made that religious belief itself should not be off-limits, when leaders purport that a literal belief in things that, outside of culturally preferred religions, would be considered insanity are actually requirements to lead.

JFK make a huge deal out of the fact that he would carry out his office under secular, and expressly not religious grounds.

Has Romney made any such statement? Do any conservative Christian / Mormon candidates?

They do not, because setting even theoretically sincere religious belief aside -- conservative religious groups and the Republican party are political allies. Conservative religious groups campaign and lobby to make their views into secular law, and those laws tend to be socially repellant, especially toward the poor, minorities, gays, and the newest / oldest specialty -- women.

LDS and other American conservative religious groups have injected themselves into the political process. So, they're in this. Romney is entitled to his beliefs as are we all. But his ties to the massive, wealthy, right-leaning political entity known as the Mormon Church entirely relevant to his candidacy for President.

[AzDar]

211. Bullshit. The Mormon Church is not only extremely political (see: Prop. 8 or

The White Horse Prophecy for starters ) itself, but permeates an adherent's existence to the degree that the question arises as to whom the potential Mormon President's service is first dedicated : The Church? Or The Constitution?

[obamanut2012]

223. You may want to start an OP on the Prophecy

I know about it, but many don't. Or, if they do, they think it's some urban legend/conspiracy theory, not a very real belief of many LDS.

[LiberalAndProud]

212. Both JFK and Obama addressed their religions affiliations in fervent and moving speeches.

But you would give Romney a pass. Why is that?

[Bluenorthwest]

213. Such a good point and a good question.

nt

[SixString]

217. Some of the christian right will not vote...

..for romney because of his religious affiliation.

It should be mentioned often and loudly.

Why indeed.

[morningfog]

214. We should bury him in criticism, including his religious beliefs. He is an entitled prick, and

a large part of that is being a mormon. It is a dangerous belief for one who would have such power to hold. Mormons are not to be trusted with the levers of power. That Reid is a mormon makes Mitt's even more troublesome.

[Harmony Blue]

215. As an Orthodox Christian

many people ask me why has Christianity drifted to such shallowness, lock step thinking, and bigotry (LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses). My response? Because good people stood by and said nothing, especially us Christians grounded in truth. Reality is, unlike JFK and Catholicism, LDS is aggressive in spreading their message with "missions". Indeed, the Catholic church was once like this, but there is a reason why this approach waned over the years.

When LDS members come to my door, they quickly realize I am Orthodox Christian and instead of me asking questions, they start asking me questions about my faith. The more I go in depth about the Orthodoxy the more confused they become, and you can see the wheel spinning in their eyes as they try process the information. It is almost like an epiphany.

LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other new age Christian movements rely on promises, gimmicks, and exertion of control of people's lives. That pretty much is all counter to Jesus Christ, and his apostles. This is what caused the schism with Catholicism and Protestantism, because once an entity like a church which is composed of a oligarchy of high ranking holy elders start to dictate and decree how one lives it misses the main point of Jesus Christ's philosophy.

[Logical]

216. Naive??? "That's a personal deal" proves you are!

[Scuba]

221. And if he were a devil worshiper? Wiccan?

His religion if fair game. It says volumes about who he is as a person.

[Evasporque]

222. No.

eom

[RetroLounge]

225. What a bunch of hooey

RL

[MADem]

227. I don't think anything should be off limits.

Harry Reid is a jack mormon, I suspect. I don't think they throw open the temple doors for him.

In any event, it doesn't matter. If people want to question his beliefs, they should be allowed to so do.

We're not locksteppers, we're Democrats.

[MineralMan]

228. Please note my use of the word "ridicule" more than once

in the OP. We should not be ridiculing religious beliefs in discussing political figures, I think.

[JNelson6563]

229. I disagree.

I don't care what people said about JFK and Catholicism back in the day. The Catholic church is very different from Mormonism. And I am not talking about the power structure here, I am talking mindset.

The Mormons (as well as other sects/cults) would love to turn America into a theocracy (as they did to Utah). I thought it was horrible when we had a dry drunk fundy in the WH. My gawd, put a power-hungry Mormon who has been groomed to believe he will lead America to Mormonism and things will really get ugly.

I can understand you wanting to be righteous on this issue. Frankly, and of course this is just my opinion, I think (considering the dangers involved) we are stepping perhaps a bit into self-righteous territory.

Julie