General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat's Our Problem with "Strong" Women?
We saw it in the 1960s. Being anti-war or anti-segregation was hip, cool, socially acceptable. Being anti-sexual discrimination made one a "bra burner", "frigid", a "man hater", a "castrating" you know what. Civil rights activists were lauded. Feminists were targets of ridicule. Leftist women were expected to shut up and put out---they would get their "equality" through a kind of trickle down effect.
Why are we, as a society, so scared of strong uppity women?
http://www.sott.net/article/149529-Control-of-Uppity-Women-Behind-Witchcraft-Accusations
I found this interesting article online. In Europe in the Middle Ages, women 1) who could read and write, 2) who expressed their spirituality by being active in the Church or as mystics 3) who expressed political opinions who 4) wielded power and 5) who worked outside the home were more likely to be accused of being witches. Even their attempts to promote the Church (which was conducting the Inquisition) were viewed as being deviant, suspect. If they looked like they were trying to do good deeds which took them outside the home and into the public world, it was all an act. They had devious, hidden motives. Joan of Arc--who claimed to hear the voice of the angles--had to be a witch. Only a witch would attempt to lead a nation. Only a witch would have that kind of political power. A woman with political power was dangerous. A woman who could move people with a spiritual message was dangerous---
I look around at my country now, and I see a lot more of the same.
Don't be afraid of uppity women. Women with political power are not necessarily doing it for "Satan" or in order to denigrate men or because they have penis envy. Women with political power are not freaks. Some of them are concerned citizens who feel compelled to help others. Some of them are very good at what they do.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)If not "witches," some herein think of us as that word with a B. Just yesterday, I read an OP wherein many DUers derided DU feminists as "sisters of perpetual outrage." The sarcasm and derision expressed towards DU feminists strikes me as both hurtful and hateful.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)They are constantly telling women here, in so many words, to pipe down and not get so "hysterical" and "outraged" about stupid, not important women's stuff.
seaglass
(8,171 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)They'll often say things like, "You don't speak for me!" And start sentences like, "Well I'm a woman and I don't agree!" As if that settles the matter. They're fond of the pats on the back they get for being the smart, sensible ones from the sexist crowd.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)The "you don't speak for me" meme is a bit aggressive and starts off the post with a mean tone directed at another poster.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)you have the right to dictate how "they should pipe up with their opinion". That's kind of like you get to speak for them. Interesting.
polly7
(20,582 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)I'm talking about making things more civil. That's trying to dictate? I guess I am trying to dictate that people be more civil. Skinner would be proud. I mean that's what he wants the board to be. So it's just my comment that "you don't speak for me" is starting out attacking the other poster, is relatively uncivil, and therefore a less civil way of responding.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)is a woman saying "you don't speak for me" I'll speak for myself thank you very much. The post I responded to was not in anyway talking about making things more civil. Read that subthread. Now you have a nice day.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Since you are determined to be both uncivil and a victim you are making up your own version of what I said. Your condescending nice day bullshit is pointless. I see civility it not a value for you. A "strong" woman is apparently a rude one.
You don't speak for me, by the way.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)Our exchanges is there to see. I was in no way rude.
You are right. I don't speak for you. I would never presume to speak for anyone or dictate how they phrase something. I speak only for myself.
seaglass
(8,171 posts)Do you see straight white men who disagree with another straight white man saying "you don't speak for me"? Does a POC, a LGBT member, a Catholic, an Atheist, anyone else on DU state "you don't speak for me"? No, they just state their fucking opinion because it is obvious to everyone but a small group that we all only speak for ourselves.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)say that someone does not speak for them. I tend to stay out of groups except for a couple that I host and the two I have been blocked from so I am not aware of what goes on in those groups you listed . We all speak for ourselves. I'm not going to argue it. If a comment is offensive it should be alerted.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)(Or vernacular like that.) You are being told that not only are you wrong, but you are rude for disagreeing.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)And I should watch how I phrase what I say. Fucking ridiculous. No one in my life has ever told me I should let someone tell me how to speak or that they can speak for me.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Particularly on issues relating to gender.
Cheers, Autumn!
seaglass
(8,171 posts)you at all Autumn and respect both how you've hosted the Bernie group and your comments after the NYC_SKP fiasco, at least what I've seen.
I haven't see it in groups, normally it is in GD, but I also don't see you in those conversations so you are probably unaware of how frequently it is said. It's not alertable.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Accepted by the men, but women generally aren't equal. Thus you have types like Phyllis Schafly and Marilyn Quayle telling other women it is not in their nature to do things outside traditional female gender roles, while doing things outside those roles themselves.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)She saw other women as the competition.
polly7
(20,582 posts)who made life hell for anyone around her who dared disagree or wasn't a mind-reader as to what needed to be done and how fast. She's mellowed now, but as a self-described 'strong woman', she ruined childhood for most of us who are now just left with some pretty horrible memories.
'Strong women' speak for themselves and other like-minded individuals who they know it's acceptable to do so for - they don't insist those who have differing opinions are somehow weak-willed little doggies who are just addicted to abuse and live for little pats on the head.
I love the strong women in my life. They don't give two shits what anyone thinks of what they say or do ...... but they're also intelligent enough to realize they haven't experienced anyone else's past or have any right to speak for them or belittle them for not agreeing or bowing down to their views. Strong women are able to empathize and be considerate and respectful of the differences in all of us, regardless of gender.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)That is exactly the same as the "white knight" argument.
If irony was drink and hypocrisy was food, oh what a fine banquet this would be.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)(I note, ironically, this song is a Neil Young creation.)
They're pretty obvious.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I haven't seen any, actually.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)shenmue
(38,506 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)I guess this is about Hillary and people that criticize her are against strong women? I don't think she is strong at all. Talking tough does not make one strong. Waffling to avoid answering tough questions is not strong at all. Sending other peoples kids to an illegal and immoral war is not strong at all. I'll probably get shit for this, but this is what many people besides me think. The more I hear and see Bernie as a contrast to -strength- as defined by military actions and strong arming, the more I see Hillary for what her record is.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)And giving the Military-Industrial Complex even more money because new enemies are always popping up like whack-a-moles.
delrem
(9,688 posts)"strong" women can be just as bad as "strong" men.
Politics isn't a matter of undifferentiated "strength".
In politics the easiest way for a weak person to appear "strong" is to be a war-hawk. It just takes rhetoric and executive decisions.
Or to bash the poor while celebrating the "job creating" rich.
So the word "strong" is a double-edged sword.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)They are manipulative in the worst sense of the word.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Margaret Thatcher. Who was as mean-spirited and hawkish a politician as I have ever seen. Vicious, petty, self-righteously moralistic and rotten to the core. Hated and bullied the poor, coddled the rich, pretty much everything that could be wrong with a politician.
I have no doubt she would have identity-politics junkies defending her to the hilt were she somehow running instead of HRC in the primaries.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Both are/were exceedingly hawkish regarding foreign policy and that seems patently obvious.
Economically, HRC is not motivated by a desire to punish the poor, as Thatcher was, but I do think they share a general philosophy of comforting the already comfortable.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I have a problem with her record and I prefer to vote for the best person in the race, not the only woman.
This leftist woman uses facts to make up her mind, I don't feel the slightest bit guilty because I support a man.
Bernie Sanders is a feminist too.
And a better liberal than Hillary Clinton will ever be.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)I'm sick of people assuming that DUers who prefer another candidate feel that way because Hillary is a woman.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Well put. Glad to see women standing up to this false narrative.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)That's why I think calling some women witches is an insult to witches, not the other way around.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)no_hypocrisy
(46,080 posts)(hippies, Yippies, etc.) men tried to subordinate women to traditional roles of cooking, providing sex, looking after children while they fought against the war, conventional politics, social mores. The role of women were to look good and be available. And that was part of the reason for the birth of neo-feminism.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I am one.
Why do you ask?
Autumn
(45,055 posts)we have some great ones. Two that come to mind immediately are Hillary Clinton and Liz Warren. I don't think that anyone would be afraid to have either, or for that matter any women to lead our nation. Hillary came close in 2008 but the voters chose another.
I don't get your paragraph on Europe in the Middle Ages and saying you see a lot more of the same. I don't get it, I don't see it. I think that a woman who could move people with a spiritual message would be well received. Of course a spiritual message to me would be one that resonates in terms of what needs to be done to fix the massive problems the country and the people have. Take Elizabeth Warren for example, she saw the problem, even before it happened that was created by banks and the lack of oversight and she speaks out against it, I see that as a spiritual message. Look what Obama has said about her because she is openly opposed to the TPP. A leader leads by having a vision of what can and needs to be done and then does it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)How very odd.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)or are strong. I don't think that's odd at all.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I've known people who are unable to go anywhere or decide anything on their own- both men and women. It's not at all uncommon. Loads of people have told me they'd never have the guts to do some of the things I have. Especially women traveling alone, that's one that kind of bums me out that people would be nervous to do.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)betsuni
(25,458 posts)Just for the record. I'm also lazy and troubled by memory loss since becoming Middle Ages.
Autumn
(45,055 posts)Memory loss is hard to deal with.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I think many women today confuse the two concepts. JMHO.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)it is tough. Our society is so imbedded with male dominance that it is impossible to even see it all.
Young women are just so brain washed to think that being "hot" is important. I see that everywhere - in the media, in the way women dress. It is so depressing. They think they are expressing their sexual freedom. What they are really doing is just buying lock stock and barrel into the male stenotype of the hot woman.
And in the workforce? Women try to be like men and it just doesn't work. The whole workplace is completely male oriented in the way it functions. Women who try and just fit in turn into people no one wants to know.
It's a really tough problem for women. First you have to learn to recognize just how completely male dominated our whole culture is. Then you have to try and find yourself and find a way to be yourself without buying into the system that is already in place and which has been in place for several hundred years.
Really, you pretty much have to go into business for yourself where you can control your surroundings.
Germaine Greer said something just a few weeks ago that is just so true. What women have managed to get for themselves so far is all the work.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There are more and more women lawyers every year. Civility is tending to increase - the younger men are better too. And things are more about removing differences rather than doing battle. There's a lot more mediation and arbitration. That could be the influence of more women in the field. You can get into a case where both opposing counsel and the judge are female and there is a more conciliating vibe - trying to help the clients rather than simply trying to best opposing counsel and thinking of what is better for the clients rather than our egos.
I've had only female family doctors - only two, but there are more and more women in that field too. I notice in general they are less judgmental than old male doctors.
People in general just seem more polite and pleasant than when I first started out - I guess that could be more because they are learning that there is more to life than work and that there's no reason to make work unpleasant. The old fashioned guys thought of it as a test - can you prove you are tough enough to deal with the stress. I recall when just starting out a boss being a jerk for no reason and I thought it was a test. The boot camp mentality.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)I didn't have much luck with female doctors. The two I saw were still operating under the male model. But that was 20 year's ago. Now there are lots more women in medicine.
I don't see much changing in the business world. The whole business model is based on the male way of thinking and operating. Unfortunately nice, honest women just get relegated to the heavy workload jobs. The women that actually buy into the pushy, competitive role model are just awful to work with.
I couldn't believe how much better my life was once I gave that whole thing up and started working for myself. I feel like a whole new person. And I like myself a whole lot better and I think that really comes across to my customers. I'm nice. I do all I can to accommodate my customers but I also stand my ground if someone starts being abusive. When I was in business I put up with so much abuse. I just wish I had figured all that out about 30 years earlier.
Being strong doesn't have anything to do with being abusive.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)pushy, competitive model" are ALSO awful to work with. In fact, I've had to tell bosses like that to 'stop it immediately. period.' When you assert yourself, smart people respond.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)The worst bosses I've ever had were women that bought into that. That's just my experience. I had some really good men bosses that were just really nice people. And some great women, too. But it's a lot better working for myself.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)make a demand like that unless I'd done a rational cost/benefit calculus in doing so, including getting fired as a result, because when I get to the point where 1) I have to talk "mommy talk" to my boss, and 2) I can deal with getting fired as a result, then either I've already found another job, or else I'm so miserable, the worst case scenario of getting unemployment benefits until I can find something else is an option light years better for me emotionally than continuing to work for an abusive boss.
I don't really have a preference for male or female bosses. I've had wonderful bosses of both genders - the bad ones I've had (of both genders) are not ones with whom I've remained.
Cheers.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)I put up with that kind of daily stress for years. It was awful.
I still have scars from all of that stuff. At least I don't have to put up with now. I only choose to work for nice people.
Of course, I don't make nearly as much money but I don't care. As long as I can pay my bills I'm fine with maker less.
treestar
(82,383 posts)You can simply refuse to deal with people who are abusive. They are not the boss's customers that you can't lose. And you can be honest and one on one and a better experience for them, too. It is good to get away from those games that they play in larger offices, where it's all about ego and competition and the clients/customers are just there to be used for that set of games.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I'm married to one
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)strong belligerent and pushy. One of the nicest persons who walk this earth
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)We live in a society where Weak and/or Effeminate Men are objects of Derision. That automatically creates a conflict as there is only so much room in the top xx%. Thereby creating more weak men, less than xx%. IMO Untill you can embrace week, effeminate men than Women will always be pushed down by those men fearfull of being too low on the Manly scale.