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McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:32 AM Jun 2015

What's Our Problem with "Strong" Women?



We saw it in the 1960s. Being anti-war or anti-segregation was hip, cool, socially acceptable. Being anti-sexual discrimination made one a "bra burner", "frigid", a "man hater", a "castrating" you know what. Civil rights activists were lauded. Feminists were targets of ridicule. Leftist women were expected to shut up and put out---they would get their "equality" through a kind of trickle down effect.

Why are we, as a society, so scared of strong uppity women?

http://www.sott.net/article/149529-Control-of-Uppity-Women-Behind-Witchcraft-Accusations

I found this interesting article online. In Europe in the Middle Ages, women 1) who could read and write, 2) who expressed their spirituality by being active in the Church or as mystics 3) who expressed political opinions who 4) wielded power and 5) who worked outside the home were more likely to be accused of being witches. Even their attempts to promote the Church (which was conducting the Inquisition) were viewed as being deviant, suspect. If they looked like they were trying to do good deeds which took them outside the home and into the public world, it was all an act. They had devious, hidden motives. Joan of Arc--who claimed to hear the voice of the angles--had to be a witch. Only a witch would attempt to lead a nation. Only a witch would have that kind of political power. A woman with political power was dangerous. A woman who could move people with a spiritual message was dangerous---

I look around at my country now, and I see a lot more of the same.

Don't be afraid of uppity women. Women with political power are not necessarily doing it for "Satan" or in order to denigrate men or because they have penis envy. Women with political power are not freaks. Some of them are concerned citizens who feel compelled to help others. Some of them are very good at what they do.



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What's Our Problem with "Strong" Women? (Original Post) McCamy Taylor Jun 2015 OP
Do you really think there is anyone on DU who really thinks that way anymore? jwirr Jun 2015 #1
Yes. chervilant Jun 2015 #2
I do...some of the MRA dudes. Arugula Latte Jun 2015 #3
It's not just dudes. n/t seaglass Jun 2015 #11
That's for sure. kcr Jun 2015 #12
Why do you think that strong women Autumn Jun 2015 #19
They could just pipe up with their opinion treestar Jun 2015 #20
So what you are saying is that because you don't like how other strong women speak Autumn Jun 2015 #26
BINGO! nt. polly7 Jun 2015 #32
Where do you get that? treestar Jun 2015 #33
No it's not. A woman saying "you don't speak for me" Autumn Jun 2015 #34
I know what I said and tried to explain it treestar Jun 2015 #37
I'm not being uncivil and a victim and I have not been rude. Autumn Jun 2015 #42
Autumn, why don't we ever see that comment towards any other group on DU? seaglass Jun 2015 #41
They can say that if they chose and yes I have seen a few people Autumn Jun 2015 #43
LOL - you are being criticized for asserting your "truths". closeupready Jun 2015 #44
Yeah, in other words I shouldn't speak for myself. Autumn Jun 2015 #49
DU is sometimes comedy gold. closeupready Jun 2015 #55
Yes we do all speak for ourselves and that should be really obvious. I don't have any issue with seaglass Jun 2015 #48
Thanks seaglass. I did take a bit of flack over that. Autumn Jun 2015 #52
Yes. Some women like to be the exceptions in the old sexist order treestar Jun 2015 #22
That was my mother. leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #28
And my mother was an authoritarian, bullying and abusive woman polly7 Jun 2015 #40
Is it someone here you believe is fond of pats on the head? nt. polly7 Jun 2015 #45
Whether they know it or not, Bonobo Jun 2015 #51
My heart needs protectin', and so do I, I, I, I.... closeupready Jun 2015 #56
Yep, a few kcr Jun 2015 #74
They can't be that obvious. polly7 Jun 2015 #75
Wow. I have not run across this or else I am just immune to it. jwirr Jun 2015 #5
I saw a post like that today shenmue Jun 2015 #6
Yay for strong, boo for hawkish. nt Bonobo Jun 2015 #4
Yes. Strong = Elizabeth Warren. Abusive = Hillary Clinton. closeupready Jun 2015 #29
What you said. SaranchaIsWaiting Jun 2015 #30
You have to vote to invade Iraq in order to be "strong"? n/t eridani Jun 2015 #7
And make speeches about "traditional enemies" Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #9
Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, ... delrem Jun 2015 #8
These are not strong women. Skidmore Jun 2015 #21
Or on a more serious note than those two morons, hifiguy Jun 2015 #62
Because Clinton and Thatcher are so similar? Okay then.... bettyellen Jun 2015 #64
I would call them neither terribly similar nor terribly dissimilar. hifiguy Jun 2015 #65
I don't have a problem with Hillary because she's a "strong" woman. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #10
Best post of the day on the matter. ^ Exilednight Jun 2015 #13
+2 ^^^ Great post! /nt RiverLover Jun 2015 #15
^^ Thread win. winter is coming Jun 2015 #25
Awesome post! peacebird Jun 2015 #35
+5 davidpdx Jun 2015 #71
"Witches" get a bad rap. Wiccan is a religion with Nature as God. RiverLover Jun 2015 #14
Agree with you on that! peacebird Jun 2015 #36
I've heard stories that during the Sixties "Youth Revolution", no_hypocrisy Jun 2015 #16
I don't have any problem with strong women. LWolf Jun 2015 #17
I have never met a woman who wasn't strong. As for strong political women in America Autumn Jun 2015 #18
Seriously? I've met both men and women who were quite weak. never? bettyellen Jun 2015 #24
I have never met a weak woman. All the women in my life have been Autumn Jun 2015 #27
I guess I just come across a more diverse group of people- you've been so fortunate ... bettyellen Jun 2015 #58
I have a very diverse group of friends and family. Autumn Jun 2015 #59
Well- not in terms of strength, lol. bettyellen Jun 2015 #63
Raising hand here -- I'm a woman and I'm weak. betsuni Jun 2015 #47
That's a health issue and a rough one. Autumn Jun 2015 #50
There's strong and then there's abusive. closeupready Jun 2015 #23
True. nt leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #69
Speaking as an older woman looking back leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #31
I have some optimism on that treestar Jun 2015 #39
That's good news. leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #54
To be honest, as a man, I think men who "buy into the closeupready Jun 2015 #57
I think an awful woman boss would fire you for that. leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #67
Like many people, I lose it sometimes, but generally I would never closeupready Jun 2015 #72
No one should have to get that upset on the job. leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #73
Very true about being your own boss treestar Jun 2015 #66
I have no problem with a strong Woman madokie Jun 2015 #38
There's a big difference between strong belligerant and just pushy. nt leftyladyfrommo Jun 2015 #68
My wife isn't madokie Jun 2015 #70
Week Men One_Life_To_Give Jun 2015 #46
Who is this "WE" that you speak of? NaturalHigh Jun 2015 #53
Who is this "Our" you speak of? 99Forever Jun 2015 #60
I like strong women. Obnoxious ones? Not so much. nt Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #61

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
2. Yes.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:48 AM
Jun 2015

If not "witches," some herein think of us as that word with a B. Just yesterday, I read an OP wherein many DUers derided DU feminists as "sisters of perpetual outrage." The sarcasm and derision expressed towards DU feminists strikes me as both hurtful and hateful.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
3. I do...some of the MRA dudes.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:48 AM
Jun 2015

They are constantly telling women here, in so many words, to pipe down and not get so "hysterical" and "outraged" about stupid, not important women's stuff.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
12. That's for sure.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 06:55 AM
Jun 2015

They'll often say things like, "You don't speak for me!" And start sentences like, "Well I'm a woman and I don't agree!" As if that settles the matter. They're fond of the pats on the back they get for being the smart, sensible ones from the sexist crowd.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
19. Why do you think that strong women
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:16 AM
Jun 2015
need someone to speak for them? Why would any woman have a problem with another woman telling anyone that they don't speak for her? As a woman I need no one to speak for me and if I disagree with someone I have no problem saying so. I have never in my life needed a pat on the head. I speak for myself.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
20. They could just pipe up with their opinion
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:20 AM
Jun 2015

The "you don't speak for me" meme is a bit aggressive and starts off the post with a mean tone directed at another poster.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
26. So what you are saying is that because you don't like how other strong women speak
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jun 2015

you have the right to dictate how "they should pipe up with their opinion". That's kind of like you get to speak for them. Interesting.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
33. Where do you get that?
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:53 AM
Jun 2015

I'm talking about making things more civil. That's trying to dictate? I guess I am trying to dictate that people be more civil. Skinner would be proud. I mean that's what he wants the board to be. So it's just my comment that "you don't speak for me" is starting out attacking the other poster, is relatively uncivil, and therefore a less civil way of responding.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
34. No it's not. A woman saying "you don't speak for me"
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jun 2015

is a woman saying "you don't speak for me" I'll speak for myself thank you very much. The post I responded to was not in anyway talking about making things more civil. Read that subthread. Now you have a nice day.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
37. I know what I said and tried to explain it
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:01 AM
Jun 2015

Since you are determined to be both uncivil and a victim you are making up your own version of what I said. Your condescending nice day bullshit is pointless. I see civility it not a value for you. A "strong" woman is apparently a rude one.

You don't speak for me, by the way.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
42. I'm not being uncivil and a victim and I have not been rude.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:12 AM
Jun 2015

Our exchanges is there to see. I was in no way rude.
You are right. I don't speak for you. I would never presume to speak for anyone or dictate how they phrase something. I speak only for myself.

seaglass

(8,171 posts)
41. Autumn, why don't we ever see that comment towards any other group on DU?
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jun 2015

Do you see straight white men who disagree with another straight white man saying "you don't speak for me"? Does a POC, a LGBT member, a Catholic, an Atheist, anyone else on DU state "you don't speak for me"? No, they just state their fucking opinion because it is obvious to everyone but a small group that we all only speak for ourselves.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
43. They can say that if they chose and yes I have seen a few people
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:19 AM
Jun 2015

say that someone does not speak for them. I tend to stay out of groups except for a couple that I host and the two I have been blocked from so I am not aware of what goes on in those groups you listed . We all speak for ourselves. I'm not going to argue it. If a comment is offensive it should be alerted.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
44. LOL - you are being criticized for asserting your "truths".
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:27 AM
Jun 2015

(Or vernacular like that.) You are being told that not only are you wrong, but you are rude for disagreeing.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
49. Yeah, in other words I shouldn't speak for myself.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:39 AM
Jun 2015

And I should watch how I phrase what I say. Fucking ridiculous. No one in my life has ever told me I should let someone tell me how to speak or that they can speak for me.

seaglass

(8,171 posts)
48. Yes we do all speak for ourselves and that should be really obvious. I don't have any issue with
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:36 AM
Jun 2015

you at all Autumn and respect both how you've hosted the Bernie group and your comments after the NYC_SKP fiasco, at least what I've seen.

I haven't see it in groups, normally it is in GD, but I also don't see you in those conversations so you are probably unaware of how frequently it is said. It's not alertable.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
22. Yes. Some women like to be the exceptions in the old sexist order
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:22 AM
Jun 2015

Accepted by the men, but women generally aren't equal. Thus you have types like Phyllis Schafly and Marilyn Quayle telling other women it is not in their nature to do things outside traditional female gender roles, while doing things outside those roles themselves.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
40. And my mother was an authoritarian, bullying and abusive woman
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jun 2015

who made life hell for anyone around her who dared disagree or wasn't a mind-reader as to what needed to be done and how fast. She's mellowed now, but as a self-described 'strong woman', she ruined childhood for most of us who are now just left with some pretty horrible memories.

'Strong women' speak for themselves and other like-minded individuals who they know it's acceptable to do so for - they don't insist those who have differing opinions are somehow weak-willed little doggies who are just addicted to abuse and live for little pats on the head.

I love the strong women in my life. They don't give two shits what anyone thinks of what they say or do ...... but they're also intelligent enough to realize they haven't experienced anyone else's past or have any right to speak for them or belittle them for not agreeing or bowing down to their views. Strong women are able to empathize and be considerate and respectful of the differences in all of us, regardless of gender.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
51. Whether they know it or not,
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:47 AM
Jun 2015

That is exactly the same as the "white knight" argument.

If irony was drink and hypocrisy was food, oh what a fine banquet this would be.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
56. My heart needs protectin', and so do I, I, I, I....
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:37 PM
Jun 2015


(I note, ironically, this song is a Neil Young creation.)
 

SaranchaIsWaiting

(247 posts)
30. What you said.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:42 AM
Jun 2015

I guess this is about Hillary and people that criticize her are against strong women? I don't think she is strong at all. Talking tough does not make one strong. Waffling to avoid answering tough questions is not strong at all. Sending other peoples kids to an illegal and immoral war is not strong at all. I'll probably get shit for this, but this is what many people besides me think. The more I hear and see Bernie as a contrast to -strength- as defined by military actions and strong arming, the more I see Hillary for what her record is.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
9. And make speeches about "traditional enemies"
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:53 AM
Jun 2015

And giving the Military-Industrial Complex even more money because new enemies are always popping up like whack-a-moles.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
8. Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, ...
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:40 AM
Jun 2015

"strong" women can be just as bad as "strong" men.

Politics isn't a matter of undifferentiated "strength".

In politics the easiest way for a weak person to appear "strong" is to be a war-hawk. It just takes rhetoric and executive decisions.
Or to bash the poor while celebrating the "job creating" rich.

So the word "strong" is a double-edged sword.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
62. Or on a more serious note than those two morons,
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:41 PM
Jun 2015

Margaret Thatcher. Who was as mean-spirited and hawkish a politician as I have ever seen. Vicious, petty, self-righteously moralistic and rotten to the core. Hated and bullied the poor, coddled the rich, pretty much everything that could be wrong with a politician.

I have no doubt she would have identity-politics junkies defending her to the hilt were she somehow running instead of HRC in the primaries.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
65. I would call them neither terribly similar nor terribly dissimilar.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 05:53 PM
Jun 2015

Both are/were exceedingly hawkish regarding foreign policy and that seems patently obvious.

Economically, HRC is not motivated by a desire to punish the poor, as Thatcher was, but I do think they share a general philosophy of comforting the already comfortable.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
10. I don't have a problem with Hillary because she's a "strong" woman.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:57 AM
Jun 2015

I have a problem with her record and I prefer to vote for the best person in the race, not the only woman.

This leftist woman uses facts to make up her mind, I don't feel the slightest bit guilty because I support a man.

Bernie Sanders is a feminist too.

And a better liberal than Hillary Clinton will ever be.



winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
25. ^^ Thread win.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jun 2015

I'm sick of people assuming that DUers who prefer another candidate feel that way because Hillary is a woman.

RiverLover

(7,830 posts)
14. "Witches" get a bad rap. Wiccan is a religion with Nature as God.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 07:09 AM
Jun 2015

That's why I think calling some women witches is an insult to witches, not the other way around.

no_hypocrisy

(46,080 posts)
16. I've heard stories that during the Sixties "Youth Revolution",
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:43 AM
Jun 2015

(hippies, Yippies, etc.) men tried to subordinate women to traditional roles of cooking, providing sex, looking after children while they fought against the war, conventional politics, social mores. The role of women were to look good and be available. And that was part of the reason for the birth of neo-feminism.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
18. I have never met a woman who wasn't strong. As for strong political women in America
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:19 AM
Jun 2015

we have some great ones. Two that come to mind immediately are Hillary Clinton and Liz Warren. I don't think that anyone would be afraid to have either, or for that matter any women to lead our nation. Hillary came close in 2008 but the voters chose another.

I don't get your paragraph on Europe in the Middle Ages and saying you see a lot more of the same. I don't get it, I don't see it. I think that a woman who could move people with a spiritual message would be well received. Of course a spiritual message to me would be one that resonates in terms of what needs to be done to fix the massive problems the country and the people have. Take Elizabeth Warren for example, she saw the problem, even before it happened that was created by banks and the lack of oversight and she speaks out against it, I see that as a spiritual message. Look what Obama has said about her because she is openly opposed to the TPP. A leader leads by having a vision of what can and needs to be done and then does it.

Autumn

(45,055 posts)
27. I have never met a weak woman. All the women in my life have been
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:33 AM
Jun 2015

or are strong. I don't think that's odd at all.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
58. I guess I just come across a more diverse group of people- you've been so fortunate ...
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:36 PM
Jun 2015

I've known people who are unable to go anywhere or decide anything on their own- both men and women. It's not at all uncommon. Loads of people have told me they'd never have the guts to do some of the things I have. Especially women traveling alone, that's one that kind of bums me out that people would be nervous to do.

betsuni

(25,458 posts)
47. Raising hand here -- I'm a woman and I'm weak.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:32 AM
Jun 2015

Just for the record. I'm also lazy and troubled by memory loss since becoming Middle Ages.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
31. Speaking as an older woman looking back
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:44 AM
Jun 2015

it is tough. Our society is so imbedded with male dominance that it is impossible to even see it all.

Young women are just so brain washed to think that being "hot" is important. I see that everywhere - in the media, in the way women dress. It is so depressing. They think they are expressing their sexual freedom. What they are really doing is just buying lock stock and barrel into the male stenotype of the hot woman.

And in the workforce? Women try to be like men and it just doesn't work. The whole workplace is completely male oriented in the way it functions. Women who try and just fit in turn into people no one wants to know.

It's a really tough problem for women. First you have to learn to recognize just how completely male dominated our whole culture is. Then you have to try and find yourself and find a way to be yourself without buying into the system that is already in place and which has been in place for several hundred years.

Really, you pretty much have to go into business for yourself where you can control your surroundings.

Germaine Greer said something just a few weeks ago that is just so true. What women have managed to get for themselves so far is all the work.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
39. I have some optimism on that
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jun 2015

There are more and more women lawyers every year. Civility is tending to increase - the younger men are better too. And things are more about removing differences rather than doing battle. There's a lot more mediation and arbitration. That could be the influence of more women in the field. You can get into a case where both opposing counsel and the judge are female and there is a more conciliating vibe - trying to help the clients rather than simply trying to best opposing counsel and thinking of what is better for the clients rather than our egos.

I've had only female family doctors - only two, but there are more and more women in that field too. I notice in general they are less judgmental than old male doctors.

People in general just seem more polite and pleasant than when I first started out - I guess that could be more because they are learning that there is more to life than work and that there's no reason to make work unpleasant. The old fashioned guys thought of it as a test - can you prove you are tough enough to deal with the stress. I recall when just starting out a boss being a jerk for no reason and I thought it was a test. The boot camp mentality.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
54. That's good news.
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jun 2015

I didn't have much luck with female doctors. The two I saw were still operating under the male model. But that was 20 year's ago. Now there are lots more women in medicine.

I don't see much changing in the business world. The whole business model is based on the male way of thinking and operating. Unfortunately nice, honest women just get relegated to the heavy workload jobs. The women that actually buy into the pushy, competitive role model are just awful to work with.

I couldn't believe how much better my life was once I gave that whole thing up and started working for myself. I feel like a whole new person. And I like myself a whole lot better and I think that really comes across to my customers. I'm nice. I do all I can to accommodate my customers but I also stand my ground if someone starts being abusive. When I was in business I put up with so much abuse. I just wish I had figured all that out about 30 years earlier.

Being strong doesn't have anything to do with being abusive.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
57. To be honest, as a man, I think men who "buy into the
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:40 PM
Jun 2015

pushy, competitive model" are ALSO awful to work with. In fact, I've had to tell bosses like that to 'stop it immediately. period.' When you assert yourself, smart people respond.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
67. I think an awful woman boss would fire you for that.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:34 AM
Jun 2015

The worst bosses I've ever had were women that bought into that. That's just my experience. I had some really good men bosses that were just really nice people. And some great women, too. But it's a lot better working for myself.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
72. Like many people, I lose it sometimes, but generally I would never
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 10:16 AM
Jun 2015

make a demand like that unless I'd done a rational cost/benefit calculus in doing so, including getting fired as a result, because when I get to the point where 1) I have to talk "mommy talk" to my boss, and 2) I can deal with getting fired as a result, then either I've already found another job, or else I'm so miserable, the worst case scenario of getting unemployment benefits until I can find something else is an option light years better for me emotionally than continuing to work for an abusive boss.

I don't really have a preference for male or female bosses. I've had wonderful bosses of both genders - the bad ones I've had (of both genders) are not ones with whom I've remained.

Cheers.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
73. No one should have to get that upset on the job.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jun 2015

I put up with that kind of daily stress for years. It was awful.

I still have scars from all of that stuff. At least I don't have to put up with now. I only choose to work for nice people.

Of course, I don't make nearly as much money but I don't care. As long as I can pay my bills I'm fine with maker less.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
66. Very true about being your own boss
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:08 PM
Jun 2015

You can simply refuse to deal with people who are abusive. They are not the boss's customers that you can't lose. And you can be honest and one on one and a better experience for them, too. It is good to get away from those games that they play in larger offices, where it's all about ego and competition and the clients/customers are just there to be used for that set of games.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
46. Week Men
Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:31 AM
Jun 2015

We live in a society where Weak and/or Effeminate Men are objects of Derision. That automatically creates a conflict as there is only so much room in the top xx%. Thereby creating more weak men, less than xx%. IMO Untill you can embrace week, effeminate men than Women will always be pushed down by those men fearfull of being too low on the Manly scale.

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