IN Germany you go to jail for displaying Nazi flags and paraphernalia

[hifiguy]

unless it's in a museum.

Yet here, Confederate crap is everywhere.

What do the Germans understand that we don't?

N.B For the sake of argument I am leaving the First Amendment questions out of this musing. Why is it considered acceptable in ANY case?

[geek tragedy]

1. The Germans have repudiated the ideology behind that flag.

Vast swaths of White America still embrace the values of the Confederacy.

[hifiguy]

2. True enough.

I am surprised that punishment for displays of loyalty to the confederacy were not a part of Reconstruction, though.

Just gets back to my meta-point that Reconstruction was botched from the beginning and should have lasted at least 50 years.

[geek tragedy]

3. Agreed. It also didn't go far enough in purging the culture

of the south.

[MicaelS]

6. Justice-wise, I think we should have hanged or shot...

The entire Confederate Government, all Plantation Owners, and every Commissioner Officer who went over to the South, including Lee. Confiscated and broken up all Plantations and given them to the former slaves. And I say this as a Texan.

Hirohito, and the entire Japanese Civilian and Military Leadership should have been hanged after the war. The Japanese got off very lightly for what they did. I think what they did was as bad as the Nazis, but the Atomic Bombs made them martyrs.

Unfortunately, political reality won't let us do those things.

The Civil War ended on the note of reconciliation. Remember Grant let Lee and officers and men and keep their rifles and horse. Everyone was tried and wanted to get back home, and start living their lives.

[jberryhill]

9. Lee didn't have authority to surrender on behalf of all those bastards

[MicaelS]

11. Sure, you're talking historical fact...

I'm talking about what I would done if I had the power. Of course I probably would not have lived long.

[hifiguy]

14. Yep. And Reconstruction should have ended somewhere around 1910-1915.

And not before.

[MicaelS]

16. Yes. n/t

[hifiguy]

15. Hirohito was mostly a figurehead.

Letting the Japanese retain their demigod emperor made the occupation of Japan mostly acceptable when Hirohito acknowledged MacArthur as the de facto ruler of the country. MacArthur was a megalomaniac of the first order but he did a great job in reconstituting the Japanese government and making Japan a peaceful nation.

[MicaelS]

17. I disagree.

Hirohito could have prevented or stopped the War anytime he wanted. But the Japanese were resource poor, and people rich. They could not buy or trade for what they need and wanted so they decided to steal it. Tom Clancy had his alter-ego Jack Ryan say "War is just armed robbery on an industrial scale." That has always stuck with me.

But, I do agree MacArthur did a hell of a job. I doubt anyone else could have done it so well.

[LordGlenconner]

25. Couldn't agree more

And this is why Sherman is one of my favorite military leaders of all time. A name I gleefully bring up whenever I encounter one of those confederate heritage assholes.

[1939]

33. Sherman

When Joe Johnston surrendered in North Carolina, Sherman was as magnanimous to him as Grant had been to Lee. When Sherman died, Joe Johnson traveled north to attend the funeral saying to the south, "He would have done the same thing for me."

[KittyWampus]

38. vast swaths of Germans still embrace what is represented by the Nazi flag.

True, it's not supported officially by the State.

Although there are locales within Germany where it's got some apologists in government.

Many DU'ers don't realize that the Far Right Neo-Nazis are still in existence in various European counties and some actually hold national elected office. They are good at "weasel words".

[Nye Bevan]

4. You can't really "leave the First Amendment out of it".

Would you prefer that the Government has the power to determine what kinds of speech are so offensive that they should be banned?

[hifiguy]

5. I am not making a legal argument, and I recognize the point you are making.

I am asking a normative question about why the closest thing this country has had to Nazism remains not only culturally accepted but celebrated. That is a symptom of a seriously screwed up society.

BTW I am as much an absolutist when it comes to the First Amendment as anyone can be. Why hasn't this shit been shamed into darkness and oblivion is my meta-question.

[Nye Bevan]

7. OK gotcha.

And I have to say I agree. Being in CT I never see a Confederate flag, and it's hard to get my head around that in the South it's not only acceptable but celebrated.

[Throckmorton]

35. Spend much time in rural Litchfield or Tolland Counties?

You will see a boat load of them, mostly on pick-up trucks.

[MicaelS]

10. Because it is a great big "Fuck You" or "Kiss my Ass" from some in the South.

It is a sign of rebellion to some, and they will never let it go. That it is in a nutshell.

[jberryhill]

8. I don't understand the N.B.

Europeans appear to believe it is possible to have a robust politics without having to be an idiot.

Their right wingers are pretty far right compared to here, and their left wingers are pretty far left compared to here.

Americans believe that if you censor something - no matter how facially idiotic and destructive - then a week later everyone will be locked up for expressing an opinion.

IMHO the flag of a wartime enemy of the United States is more a symbol of sedition than a mere expression of political or social ideas. I think a line can be drawn at support for a military force hostile to the U.S.

[hifiguy]

12. I think you have a good intellectual point.

But I, like many, am infinitely leery of letting the US government censor any political viewpoint for one simple reason - it has always been the left towards which those weapons have been turned, from the Palmer Raids and the Wobblies to today. Environmental groups get spied on, white supremacists and neo-Nazis largely are ignored.

[kelly1mm]

23. So the flags of Mexico, Spain, Great Britan and the Confederacy should be banned as seditious? nt

[NuclearDem]

24. Not the same thing.

Great Britain, Mexico, and Spain have histories spanning centuries or even millennia, very little of which was spent at war with the US.

The Confederacy, on the other hand, existed for less than half a decade, and existed solely as an organization of rebellious, slaveowning states at war with the rest.

Chances are someone flying a Union Jack in the US isn't doing so to remind people of the colonial era or the White House being burned. It's probably because they're British.

[kelly1mm]

26. With your clarifications it may not be the same thing. However, that was not what the poster I

responded to proposed. the poster proposed:

"IMHO the flag of a wartime enemy of the United States is more a symbol of sedition than a mere expression of political or social ideas. I think a line can be drawn at support for a military force hostile to the U.S."

The proposal as far as I can see looks not at what the flag/symbol reminds people of (as that would be subjective) but simply if it was/is the flag of a wartime enemy of the US.

I do see merit to your point, but respectfully note that your argument is not what I was responding to.

[jberryhill]

42. No

Those flags do not - in and of themselves - symbolize support for an unlawful insurrection against the United States. The United States did not reach some sort of treaty establishing the cessation of hostilities - the point was the cessation of the CSA as an entity per se.

We made peace with those other countries. We did not make peace with Nazi Germany - it was ended and split up. Likewise, the outcome of the Civil War was termination of the CSA as a concept. Secession from the United States is not permitted under Article IV of the Constitution. The Guarantee Clause is interpreted to mean that a state must stay in the United States in order for the federal government to exercise the powers reserved to it under Article IV.

[X_Digger]

13. It's acceptable because we understand that the solution to bad speech is good speech. n/t

[moondust]

19. In practical terms,

I don't know who would have enforced a ban on Confederate stuff after the Civil War due to the geographic size of the Confederacy and the large population. It's probably not realistic to think you could occupy the place indefinitely with garrisons of Union troops to enforce a ban. Could the locals be expected to enforce a ban on the symbols so many of their friends and relatives had embraced, fought and died for? I doubt a ban was even considered by Union generals and politicos. They may have even figured that since the Confederates were defeated they would rehabilitate, forget the symbols and move on.

Germany was occupied by Allied and Soviet troops for more than 40 years after WWII so there were plenty of ban enforcers available if needed. Devastated post-war Germans had no real choice but to come to terms with their wrongs, face down their demons, and do whatever necessary to prevent it from ever happening again.

[brooklynite]

20. Do you imagine that if the Confederate flag had been banned...

...there wouldn't be racists and bigots?

[hifiguy]

21. Of course not

But eliminating the symbols of tyranny and bigotry is a start. Neo Nazis are not tolerated in Germany but Neo-Confederates are actively celebrated in US culture.

[onenote]

28. There are neo Nazis in Germany and throughout Europe

and their numbers are growing not shrinking.

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. Personally I don't think many people from The South understand the underlying history behind it.

Picture an 18 year old kid bouncing down the road in an 8' tall truck with a flagpole in the back that has a confederate flag whipping in the wind.

Do you think he knows anything other than he's carrying a "symbol" of The South? I don't. I don't think they teach kids in the schools that they're living in the part of the country that seceded and went to war in order to keep slavery alive. Where else would they get the notion of The War of Northern Aggression but in school?

No, I think all they know is it's a "symbol". After all, none of them remember slavery, and how old does one have to be to remember when segregation was the RULE?

[jberryhill]

27. A "symbol of the South"

I still don't get the point.

"Yippee it's great to live at a near tropical latitude!"

I don't see people in the Mid-Atlantic states running around with revered banners showing a diagram of the Chesapeake Bay on them.

What is the "symbol of the West"?

Just wtf is it about the South that they need a "symbol" to rally around?

I never understand this crap - or even the "don't talk smack about my state" stuff. By sheer happenstance, everyone comes out of their mother someplace, but they act like it was some kind of meritorious accomplishment.

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. I'm not trying to justify, just stating a hunch. n/t

[BKH70041]

30. I understand where he's coming from.

For a lot of people, it's just a symbol of the region of the country that is "The South" and that's all it means to them.

Up until recently I was living in Asheville, NC, and I've seen young black men driving pick-ups, blasting country music. and spitting tobacco that had rebel flag stickers on their truck. I've seen young white men with hopped up cars with rap music blasting wearing John Deere hats, overalls, and spitting tobacco with rebel stickers on their car. And all these young people are the best of friends.

Don't ask me to explain it, but there's plenty of all races who just don't hold to the symbolism that I see here.

[MadrasT]

31. I think to a lot of young people it is just a symbol of being a rebellious bad-ass.

And not even a symbol of "the South", necessarily.

[J_J_]

32. Have you seen all the nazi crap sold on ebay?

Seems the NSA should look into who the hell is buying that?

[Sparhawk60]

34. The Falg is a Good Way To Spot Them

Seeing some one hanging a confederate flag (or sticker) is a great way to spot the raciest. Even better when you see a business with that flag up. Save your money for the guys with the rainbow flag in the window.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. Saying "leave freedom of speech out of it" kind of misses the point.

Yes, if you leave freedom of speech out of it, then you can ban the possession of "Confederate crap".

But you shouldn't. Freedom of speech is important.

[hifiguy]

37. See this post for the meta-point I was attempting to raise.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6861837

[Donald Ian Rankin]

39. Can you clarify something for me, please.

Are you asking:

a) About the ethics of owning/displaying Confederate symbols?
b) About the ethics of making it illegal to own/display Confederate symbols?

I'm fairly firmly in opposite corners on those two issues.

There are two main differences between the USA and Germany. The first is that Germany as a nation is much more traumatised by the second world war than America is by the civil war - it was more recent, more horrific, and far fewer people are equivocal about the rights and wrongs of it.

The second is that America puts a much higher premium on freedom of speech than most European nations do - rightly, in my view. There are a small but non-trivial number of Germans who still sympathise with the Nazis, but Germany puts them in prison if they express there views, whereas in America expressing Confederate sympathies - or Nazi sympathies - is obviously legal.

[hifiguy]

40. The shit will always be around.

What I can't figure out is why people don't feel ashamed to stand there and say "I am for a treasonous government that supported human slavery and made war against the legitimate government of the United States." And why people don't shame those sorry pieces of shit for doing so.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. OK, so that at least I can answer.

The reason is that a significant minority of Americans, mostly but not exclusively Southerners, don't think that the Confederacy *was* "a treasonous government that supported human slavery and made war against the legitimate government of the United States." - they actively deny the "treasonous" and "legitimate", and downplay the importance of slavery.

If you want to see what they think of it, you're asking the wrong people - you need to be looking at the websites of Confederate groups to see them explain their own thinking, not asking people who hate them to explain them. Mostly what you'll get on DU are cardboard cutout caricatures, and if you take them seriously you'll understand less about how these people think than if you'd never asked.

[NYC Liberal]

43. Just because the Germans do something doesn't make it right.

You could just as easily say:

"In the United States, the government can't imprison you for displaying a symbol. What do Americans understand that Germans don't?"

[hifiguy]

44. Given their national experience, though,

it is rather easy to understand why those symbols are banned.