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Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:30 AM

What does abortion have to do with climate change? You’ll have to ask Pope Francis.

Buried in Pope Francis’ encyclical on climate change, released Thursday, was a bold exhortation that pro-life conservatives support action to stop global warming on moral grounds.

“[C]oncern for the protection of nature is also incompatible with the justification of abortion,” he wrote. “How can we genuinely teach the importance of concern for other vulnerable beings, however troublesome or inconvenient that may be, if we fail to protect a human embryo, even when its presence is uncomfortable and creates difficulties?”


The line seemed out of place in an American political context, where anti-abortion Republicans are on the opposite end of the spectrum from Democratic environmentalists, but the pope is only the latest in a growing number of Christian conservatives who see a connection between pro-life views and environmentalism.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/what-does-abortion-have-to-do-with-climate-change-119192.html#ixzz3dnFkVdGB


So, yeah, bury your head in the sand, Frank and preemptively give a middle finger to those of us who support choice and how keeping women reduced to nothing but broodmares DIRECTLY contributes to poverty and overpopulation.

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Reply What does abortion have to do with climate change? You’ll have to ask Pope Francis. (Original post)
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 OP
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #1
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #2
hifiguy Jun 2015 #37
Lordquinton Jun 2015 #42
Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #3
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #4
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #9
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #10
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #12
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #13
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #17
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #19
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #29
Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #40
Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #11
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #14
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #15
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #25
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #26
The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #32
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #33
Bluenorthwest Jun 2015 #5
raouldukelives Jun 2015 #6
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #8
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #7
mmonk Jun 2015 #16
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #18
mmonk Jun 2015 #20
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #21
mmonk Jun 2015 #24
mmonk Jun 2015 #22
joeybee12 Jun 2015 #23
mmonk Jun 2015 #27
Agnosticsherbet Jun 2015 #28
niyad Jun 2015 #30
AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #35
niyad Jun 2015 #41
KamaAina Jun 2015 #31
AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #34
AlbertCat Jun 2015 #36
itcfish Jun 2015 #38
PeaceNikki Jun 2015 #39

Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:35 AM

1. That's some pretzel logic.

Climate change is about human species survival, not being 'uncomfortable' or 'creating difficulties'.

Yes, we also want the other species, on whom we depend in various ways, to survive. Ideally, all of them, given that they all fill different niches in the environmental web. But fighting climate change is still anthropocentric for most folks.


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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:38 AM

2. Exactly. I'm surprised he didn't connect gay marriage to climate change.

Yet. Asshole.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:43 PM

37. And population growth is one of the things

 

most directly threatening the long-term survival of the planet.

Mother Nature ALWAYS bats last and never gets cheated.

Still, the bulk of his message is a good one. This and his critiques of capitalism surely beat Benny the Rat and his pedophile protection racket.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:14 AM

42. His critiques of capitalism are identical to his predecessor

and back for a while. And while he wasn't literally the head inquisitor in charge of covering up pedophiles, he's still covering up for that guy, and has endorsed child abuse (look up his speech where he says that it's natural to hit a child).

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:45 AM

3. A sustainable human population requires

 

Free and readily available access to all forms of birth control so that people can make informed choices about reproduction. Wonder Popes regressive institution stands firmly in the way, despite all the superficially pleasant sounding words.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:28 AM

4. It's the LARGEST single threat to the environment.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_sustainability/climate/

A 2009 study of the relationship between population growth and global warming determined that the “carbon legacy” of just one child can produce 20 times more greenhouse gas than a person will save by driving a high-mileage car, recycling, using energy-efficient appliances and light bulbs, etc. Each child born in the United States will add about 9,441 metric tons of carbon dioxide to the carbon legacy of an average parent. The study concludes, “Clearly, the potential savings from reduced reproduction are huge compared to the savings that can be achieved by changes in lifestyle.”


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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:04 AM

9. We're sustaining 7+ billion people now

The thing with the word sustainable is that we don't really know what it means. All that really matters is today. Rule #1 is keep people alive, and figure out the consequences later. Every time we hit a limit of some kind, we find a way around that limit, since we're humans and that's what we do. Death is the ultimate limit, so that's the one that we really don't like.

While free and readily available access to all forms of birth control so that people can make informed choices about reproduction is a good goal, it's not a requirement for a sustainable human population, because there's no objectively set number for it. We think because we can measure something that we can control it, but the numbers exist nowhere but in our heads.

Even the word sustainable is created and defined by us. If 7+ billion wasn't sustainable, a lot more of us would be dying right now.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:08 AM

10. A 'good goal'? No, it's a *necessary* goal for the environment, poverty reduction and autonomy.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:22 AM

12. Which are all different from it being required for a sustainable population

Which was the part that I was responding to. We're doing so well at sustaining 7+ billion, that we're projected to hit more than that in the coming years.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:23 AM

13. But we're not 'doing so well'.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:46 AM

17. At that one thing, we very much are

There are physically more people on the planet today than there were yesterday. Younger people, middle age people, older people, the whole spectrum. We get better and better at keeping people alive every day. What happens after that with everyone is more of a gray area.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:48 AM

19. We're not doing well with the environment.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #19)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:02 AM

29. Which isn't what I was talking about

We're doing an incredible job at keeping more people alive today than yesterday.

http://www.census.gov/popclock/

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #29)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 03:48 PM

40. You keep trying to unlink population and the

 

environment in which that population exists. That is nonsense.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:19 AM

11. We are not in a sustainable state.

 

Do you really not understand that population is one key drivers of human induced catastrophic climate change? That the current situation is not sustainable and its unsustainibility is getting worse?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:40 AM

14. Well aware that it's one of the drivers, yes

In the 200,000 years or so that modern people have been around, it's the last 10,000 years or so of the resource concentration mechanism we call civilization that has been a real issue. Roads? One of the worst things we've ever done environmentally. Since we're not going to fix that...

We have 4 options:

1) More people doing more
2) More people doing less
3) Fewer people doing more
4) Fewer people doing less

#1 is basically what we're doing in the big picture. We know how to do that. That's how society functions. People with jobs going out and creating demand for more people to have jobs, and all the taxes that all those people pay.

#2 is basically what the developing world does. It adds people, but there's not enough infrastructure for them to really do that much.

#3 is the developed world. We have fewer people, so we have to import people just to keep pace. We use up more than our fair share of resources though, and the developing world wants in on some of that action. If the planet is finite, that's going to cause some issues.

#4 is...well, it's basically not a society. Where's the business? Where's the tax money? It might be the best thing for the rest of life on the planet if we did #4, but we're not going to do #4.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:44 AM

15. JFC, the point of this OP is that the leader of 1.2 billion people who claims want to help the

climate takes the fucking OPPOSITE of a helpful stance when it comes to birth control. It's irresponsible, hypocritical and harmful to women, the climate and society in general.

I don't understand why you feel the need to try to debate that.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:56 AM

25. I didn't respond to the OP

Or anything that the Pope said. I was responding to the free and readily available access to all forms of birth control so that people can make informed choices about reproduction being a requirement for a sustainable population. It's a requirement for a better life for women, but just not a sustainable human population. Those are two different things.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #26)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:24 AM

32. Alright, so what's the objective number?

How many people is sustainable? Depends on the context of the circumstances in which those people live, but lets just say at the current rate of human progress, since we're not going to want to live in a mud hut. How many people can be alive today, with a developed world lifestyle? It can be that of Sweden or Finland, it doesn't matter. It's certainly less than 7 billion.

It'll take a while to get to whatever that number is, but we don't have that long.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #32)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:30 AM

33. I don't claim to be a scientist, so let's refer to the research they've done:

Current Population is Three Times the Sustainable Level

Though, how much people consume is a huge variable in the equation. If the rest of the planet consumed like Americans, the planet would already be dead.

The point that you keep trying to defer from is that population is a definite contributing factor to the environment.

Fuck the pope.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:58 AM

5. It's Frank's bait and switch, he has liberals celebrating an anti choice Encyclical

 

Just as they all celebrate his anti gay sentiments. The obvious concern with the more conservative straight folks in this Party is that they would so gleefully 'compromise' with Francis by giving away the rights of others to please him.
I just don't feel like I am a wanted part of this country. I'm sick of that.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:37 AM

6. I so get what you are saying Blue, I feel the same way about corporatists.

Trading away my democracy, my world of trees & animals for easy cash. They give away my rights, they destroy my sources of joy and they celebrate it, in my face. I too feel unwanted.

I just hope you believe me when I say I want what you want. This country, this world, is for all of us, not the few.

I am no fan of the Catholic Church, but I am a fan of change and to me Francis is a huge step forward from the last.

I am no fan of how Thomas Jefferson made his wealth, but I am a fan of his words. Words that moved all of us forward.

Forward, we can do this.

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Response to raouldukelives (Reply #6)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:41 AM

8. Can you elaborate on how EXACTLY "Francis is a huge step forward from the last"?

That's a fantasy.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:44 AM

16. Well, the pro-life movement did not start out as an anti-abortion

movement (its was against the death penalty) and two, you can't be pro-life and pro-pollution. Hope that clarifies a few things (and no, I'm not for outlawing abortion).

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Response to mmonk (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:46 AM

18. Clear as mud.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:50 AM

20. Only if you can't read or follow history.

Or are stubborn. No offense.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #20)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:53 AM

21. (insert totally shitty statement here)

<then end with "No offense.">

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:55 AM

24. Not going to fight you over abortion since I agree with you in that regard.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:54 AM

22. Just trying to follow his logic in his wording.

Doesn't mean it holds water overall, just partially.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:54 AM

23. Talk about a disconnect...

 

Pro-choice and pro-science (and therefore concern about global warming) go hand-in-hand. He still doesn't get it.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #23)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:01 AM

27. Unless you are saying you can't be pro-life and pro-pollution since pollution

destroys life.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:02 AM

28. Linking one to the other with the religious right is a good tactic.

It is annoying as hell that we can not just look at the science, but the religious right believes science is a conspiracy straight from the jaws of hell.

Though I reject the convoluted logic, I applaud the effort to bring religious people to support work to save our ravaged ecosystem.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:07 AM

30. just when I thought there was something positive to say about pope photo op

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Response to niyad (Reply #30)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:01 PM

35. Fortunately, the media doesn't analyze things, so you get another week

Of wall to wall happy fun times articles about blank Frank the wonderpope to enjoy.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #35)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:09 PM

41. I think I will pass.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:14 AM

31. Ugh.

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 12:51 PM

34. Thank you for posting this. Dead on target.

My version of this thread in a different venue is. .. Less productive

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:36 PM

36. Not sure....

 

....... how a bunch of unwanted babies help climate change.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:52 PM

38. Actually I understand

His logic. If you want to preserve life, that means all life. In his opinion. Nothing wrong with that. It's makes more sense than being pro-life and pro capital punishment. On the other hand, he should also be pro-birth control.

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Response to itcfish (Reply #38)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:53 PM

39. Bacteria is 'life'.

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