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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsStop with the damn dirty politics against other Democrats
Seriously, just makes the person posting it look stupid.
If you can't sell your candidate without posting negative shit about the other one then maybe your candidate isn't really that viable to start. And btw both sides does it.
BTW I know this isn't the O'Malley and Chaffee supporters doing it.
I can almost assure you that neither Bernie Sanders nor Hillary Clinton appreciates it that you're posting negative shit about the other candidate. In fact I would think they would be pretty damn embarassed if they read some of the stuff you are posting against the other person.
Save the mud-slinging for the fall election! I think we have enough REAL facts about each candidate that can be used without going negative nelly posting innuendos of implied racism or using words that I won't even call my worst enemy.
Consider this - at this point you probably aren't going to change anyone's opinion on who they are supporting and your post really isn't anything more than a random rant on the internets. But I'd like to think that the DU is a place where we are a bit more thoughtful than say the Free Republic.
For the few undecides out there you aren't going to win them over with the negative crap, if anything it's a real turn-off.
But in the end it's a free world but before you post your rant to the world just think about what you are putting out there and ask yourself this - 'If my candidate of choice read this would they be proud of what I am saying or embarassed as hell?'
That is all.
And please, no negative shit in my thread please about who started it first or why your post is justified. I've heard it all. I just wanted to get this rant off my chest in hopes that perhaps we can have better discussions about the candidates - which are the ones I try to read. I do try to read positive posts about rallies and discussion about the issues. Every once in awhile I click on a mudslinger thread and it's like
FSogol
(45,483 posts)We need big wins in 2016 and need everyone's vote.
tosh
(4,423 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)They help nobody's cause.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I am getting a bit sick of hearing this. Especially this early on.
Save the insults for the general election, when we can go after the chosen member of the circus ocean liner which is full of RepubliCON "candidates."
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)that will divide this party. You do not get to decide who is a real Democrat.
And I don't know what you mean by "another" DINO.
You don;t have to agree with a candidate on every issue for them to be a "real" Democrat.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... that's your business.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"... that's your business."
No more and no less than simplistic bumper-stickers are yours...
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Hillary's positions on those things are WAY more complicated than you indicate.
But hey, you have an axe to grind, so I don't expect nuance.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)We can all begrudgingly come together for the sake of avoiding an R president in the general, but there is a bitter and growing divide between third way, and the right & proper way dems.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,173 posts)It is dishonest not to accept this reality.
We will all come together, and if Hillary is nominated, I have no doubt that the vast majority of DU will vote for her...even if it is thought of as a "best of two evils" vote.
But until that happens, there is nothing wrong with holding a candidates feet to the fire. Not just DU, but Daily Kos, Huffington Post, and also mainstream avenues...we should not be cowed into biting our tongues if we see something we don't like in a candidate. I do agree that there is a limit, especially using sexist, or vulgar slurs. But you cannot just nail down peoples emotions. Example: Obama's bull-headed push to pass the TPP. There is a divide in the Democratic Party. Those on the left never wavered, its the right wing of the party that has taken the ball (ie. all leadership positions and the DLC) and moved way to the right. Some of us will not be dragged there without kicking and screaming.
rbnyc
(17,045 posts)Primary season is the time to advance the values we want to advance and call party leadership into question.
merrily
(45,251 posts)And some who don't caucus, other than with the Democratic Caucus. That's four right there. And I very much doubt everyone agrees with all the other members of his or her group.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I mean, I took the "match your candidate" poll. I agree with Bernie 98% of the time and Hillary 91%. Honest to Jeebus, I can't see that all those bullshit is worth 7%. Not when my match with the BEST Repug was below 25%.
Cha
(297,196 posts)Obama.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It's especially bullshit coming from a supporter of somebody who isn't even a Democrat
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)then what is he?
Are you against social democracy? Are you for the 1%? Because unless you are, I can't understand how you can say he's not a democrat. He is not a democrat by party affiliation, but by his standards he's the best democrat I've seen in my lifetime.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)I get it. Mudslinging and playing to people's worst instincts are the secrets to the GOP's and Fox News' success. They do it for a reason - it works for them. It replaces critical thinking with a a pithy soundbite. Maybe that's all of politics.
But we should be above such petty nonsense.
The word DINO says and means nothing in the context of Hillary's career. The democratic party evolves over time. I believe that's the strength of our party and why it will last long into the future.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)That I find articles from established magazines and post them, but I don't know the authors or who they are, or what their politics is. I guess that means I should stop posting them, but THERE are many here who don't know about an author either. That means we have to go look them up on Wikipedia or something? That's already happened to me..
"How dare you post that article by Joe Schmoe!! He's a fucking Rightwing hack!! You must be a troll introducing that shit on DU!! "
FUCK...how am I supposed to know? I have posted thousands of articles from magazines and Newspapers and never had someone tell me.. that!!
SO now what? Stop posting?? Or STAY WITH SAFE SUBJECTS...like cute photos of Kitty cats!
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I've weeded out a number of "selective information" hit pieces by googling the author's "work."
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)NOT only that...But we have to check if someone else posted the article...IT MAY have already been posted on DU a day ago, or a week ago or even a month ago. SO maybe I should just shut the fuck up and stop posting articles, since people think I must be a fucking right wing troll, or a HILLARY HATER!!,...
KAMI SAMA...this is fucking frustrating.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Isn't it more important to be accurate than first?
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)will beat me to it, and than I get flack for re-posting the same thing all over again, which is frustrating. You are right, I should just back the fuck off and stop posting.. and stick with cute kitty photos.
Beartracks
(12,809 posts)===================
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)kidding, okay..no really, I think I am done posting anything more on Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton. I am tired of the cheap shots at me. I am done. I will be focusing on news stories other than that.. and am removing myself from the Bernie Sanders group. I do better reporting stuff about what is happening in Asia.. and so from now on, that's where I will focus.
Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #15)
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yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)I SHOULD JUST shut the fuck up, thank you! You have made me see the light!
Response to Name removed (Reply #29)
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Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #44)
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Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,571 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)You say bad things.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,173 posts)I alerted and hes gone *poof*
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)( Why do your posts always say 3 even after you keep posting your bullying comments?)
Anyway, thought I would add my 2 cents since the other person who called you out got their post hidden and I WANT TO STAND WITH THEM.
Perhaps you can send this one to the jury as well, so others can see what kind of intolerant ass clown you are?
Frankly, if they want your rude and narrow-minded belittling of long-time and diligent DU posters by someone who appears to be little more than a troll, they can have you.
In spades.
Marr
(20,317 posts)protecting yourself from even hearing other points of view, much less considering them.
Research their claims, absolutely. Check their facts. But if you're weeding out arguments simply because they don't come from people you already agree with, you're just gazing into your own navel.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)It's not like you are posting from straight up RW hate sites.
If we all start worrying THAT much about basically benign writers, nothing will ever be pure enough.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)I have decided to leave the Bernie Sanders group and stop posting on him or Hillary all together. From now on, I will post stories about what I know, which is Asia. I will keep my opinions about who is running for President to myself. I am done with it.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I am an O'malley supporter and I really try to stay out of those battles.
They are not changing any one's mind.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)I will stop taking stuff from Twitter, and stop posting any articles about the Candidates. I have removed myself from the group, and am totally done with it..I look forward to posting stuff about Japan, South Korea, China and other places that have news of interest.
Rhiannon12866
(205,319 posts)It's the season and MIRT is on the job, getting rid of them as fast as we can. That one didn't last long...
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Rhiannon12866
(205,319 posts)Feelings are running really high here just now. It's primary season and it's inevitable, sad, but it's been like this before. I remember being shocked back in 2004 when I read some of the comments. But we survived that and we'll get past this - eventually. Ignore is your friend right now - as is alert. Insults aren't acceptable from anybody. MIRT is on the job, and we're very, very busy...
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)I have left the group. I will only post about stuff I know, for example on Asian affairs and what happens in Japan. I will vote for who I think is best in the future, but will keep my opinions to myself. I don't need a hostile atmosphere, and don't need people assuming I am some Republican plant here to disrupt the conversation.
Rhiannon12866
(205,319 posts)Just hang in there and don't hesitate to alert if you see anything more like the one that was just dispatched. Letting you know that MIRT has your back here...
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)I have enjoyed your posts and will continue to watch for you.
In presidential cycles DU becomes very toxic. It is too bad that good people like you get hurt in the process. I have been ready to walk away in the past and may yet some day. Best wishes!
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)in the Asian group... despite the fact few people visit there.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)it appears that you helped to get rid of some jerk in the thread above. As the Australians say: "Good on ya!"
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)if a source is left, right, or down the middle nor do I care as long as I know the facts are correct. I usually read two or three articles and then grab the top one on the google page or just link to the google page itself.
One thing I have noticed about the complainers is that they can take the time to research the source and/or author but not find time to research the fact and refute it. In other words they can't argue against the facts so they have to argue against the messenger. It is mostly a diversionary tactic.
Don't quit posting and don't lose any sleep over the nit pickers, because that is all they can do is nit pick. Also remember this is DU, if you said water was wet, someone would go to their freezer pick up an ice cube, put it back down, go back to their computer and type "no, it's not wet."
Go find a couple of cat pictures to coo over then come back here and post away! Don't let the nit pickers get to you, it's just the internet!" When I get one of those stupid post I say "Good! Proof that I'm not the stupidest person on the internet today." Then some days I think half of the people on the internet are bipolar, and other days I think the other half is.
Have a nice day and keep on posting.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...Du isn't a campaign board, it's a discussion board where people come to express how the really feel about political issues and politicians. It should be recognized that there are very candid conversations outside of this board about these politicians that would make the average Duer blush.
Moreover, there isn't always gong to be a clear mark where everyone is going to agree that an issue raised, a question asked, or a criticism rendered is fair game or mud-slinging, as you put it. You should know well that perception is almost always different on one side of the political or candidate fence or the other.
I'm all for positive posts, but this isn't tiddlywinks, it's raw and aggressive politics with egos involved almost as large as the candidates' themselves; and motivations, interests, and concerns which are often very real and heartfelt.
We can certainly make judgments about what posts we think are 'mud-slinging,' but moralizing about people making critical posts about these career politicians is a subjective exercise bordering on censorship. Generalizing on them is a dubious and questionable practice, at best.
I realize that you mean well, but I think it's best to let the fur fly and accept that these candidates and the issues they represent - as well as the manner in which they represent them - is going to be controversial to someone at some point, and it's inevitable that will be remarked on or highlighted here. That's the nature of an open discussion.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I think it's fine to advocate for your candidate. I think it sucks to take skewed, cheap shots at other Democrats. It does not serve our purpose in the end, IMO.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...and, again, 'cheap shots' are likely to be in the eye of the beholder; namely which candidate or position you favor.
If one's 'purpose' is in advancing Democratic issues, initiatives, or principles, that's at least as important as advancing the career of a politician.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But I will say I oppose cheap shots against Bernie too, such as the suggestion that he doesn't support racial justice enough, or that he is somehow not pro-woman enough. Those suggestions are bullshit, IMO.
But to me, it's not about advancing a particular political career, it's about ensuring we win the White House, and as many other down-ticket races as possible, in 2016. I don't see how many of the posts here support that effort.
I happen to think Hillary is our best shot at that. I am perfectly willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but over-the-top nonsense like calling her a DINO or Republican-lite is harmful, IMO. I mean, it sure as hell doesn't convince me that Bernie is the guy to support. But maybe that was never the goal to begin with.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...and applied to ALL of our candidates.
In the real world, people are looking to see if these candidates are emphasizing, prioritizing, or effectively representing many issues which directly concern them. Certainly issues and concerns related to race and gender are paramount to many Americans. I wouldn't presume at all to tell someone they shouldn't express criticism of these candidates if they feel they are falling short of that representation of their particular concerns. That's what campaigns are all about; convincing voters that these politicians are on our side. Reducing participation in a primary campaign discussion to 'electability' is a betrayal of those legitimate concerns.
Of course, name-calling is offensive and inflammatory. However, characterizing positions and views of these politicians is what we do in real life and should be respected as free expression. I don't think we should try and restrict that exercise of our opinion here of these political figures just to satisfy the sensibilities of Duers or shy way because someone thinks an adjective or two is going to throw the election.
I can just see the history books now...
Sen. So & So's political decline began the day DUer, bigtree, made an unflattering comment about a statement the senator made. Lol.
calimary
(81,238 posts)We need OUR OWN "11th Commandment" like the one ronald reagan had for republi-CONS. Ours would state:
"Thou shalt not speak ill of another Democrat."
All I'll say about the divisiveness that's building here between one candidate's followers and another candidate's followers - Bernie Sanders has already stated that he is not, and will not be, a spoiler. If he doesn't get the nomination, he's already said he won't break away and run as an independent, but will support the Democratic nominee. Because he wisely points out that it's FAR more important to keep the White House in Democratic hands. FAR MORE IMPORTANT. Whoever sits in that Oval Office is the one who gets to pick the next Supreme Court nominees. And for me, frankly, that's pretty much all I need to know.
I, too, have already stated (as have other Hillary supporters on this board) that we will be proud to support and vote for Bernie Sanders if he beats Hillary to the nomination. I wish I saw that, correspondingly, from other camps. And unfortunately, I do not.
We cannot afford for ANY of us to stay home and pout on Election Day. We Just CAN'T. I certainly have no plans to do that. None whatsoever.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)with substantive proof that it is wrong. Attack the message, not the messenger. (not saying you have done this...just making a point to everyone).
Don't get defensive. If you (again, not you personally) become defensive and angry...even if it is a first and natural reaction, it just looks like you don't have a leg to stand on.
And yes, this board is about advancing democrats, but there are different kinds of democrats. Some want a centrist or third way...some want a more progressive type. We are not going to always agree on who should be advanced, especially in the primaries. Some of us feel very strongly about who should be winning the primary; and I think it's fair and necessary to bring these discussions to the table now that we are still in the primaries.
I think we can do it without fighting, if we try to keep our emotions in check and try to understand what the other person is saying, and why. Remember they are coming from a place that is probably very emotional too.
JMHO
I'm not always tactful, and I apologize in advance to anyone I've unintentionally angered or insulted. I am very emotionally involved in supporting Bernie. I understand that many are emotionally involved in supporting Hillary, even if I can't understand why.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I'm fine with criticizing a candidates policy positions, or votes, or what have you. Fair game.
But using pejorative references can't be defended against because they are vague. It boils down to a childish game of name calling. We should avoid that. It's the worst kind of Faux News sound bite politics.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)may be something someone really believes about your candidate. And if that is true, why not try to teach them they are wrong?
I'm always open to learning that someone is maybe not what I thought they were. Always. As long as it's done in a defensive or acerbic manner.
If what is posted that you think is perjorative, is not done in such a manner, it may really be that person's honest belief.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)it would probably better for their health if they went to the gym and hit the heavy bag.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Gandhi said this about the 2016 primaries...
I like your candidate, I do not like your candidate's supporters. Your candidate's supporters are so unlike your candidate.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)5-hide-induced timeout so perhaps things are on the road to getting better.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)demmiblue
(36,845 posts)The problem that arises is when posters use disingenuity, lying and pretzel- twisting in order to make the opposing opponent look bad.
Plus, there are safe haven groups which can and do weed out the negative talk regarding candidates (and ban those who do not follow the SoP of the group).
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Hillary or Bernie's voting record - FACT
Making vague associations to try to make Hillary or Bernie sound like they are Racist, Homophobic or anti-anything - just really bad bad commentary.
And btw at some point we have to assume we all have a bad history. If I ever ran for office you can assume that in my past I have done and/or said thing that could be construed as either racist or homophobic. I grew up in rural Pennsylvania and I know in my youth I said some stupid shit. But then I became an adult, met people and realized what a dumbass I was. People do evolve on their opinions. Hell Obama vocally supported DOMA but even he evolved on that stance. I've listened to Joe Biden talk about his vote to support Bush with the war and his regrets because there were doubts and 'what ifs'. In the end I have to look at the big picture especially with a general election.
demmiblue
(36,845 posts)Laser102
(816 posts)Anyone of them can beat the republican nominee. Who ever that clown may be.
Logical
(22,457 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Gothmog
(145,176 posts)That was a really bad move
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)It's possible to support the candidate of your choice without slinging mud at another. The GOPers will take care of that for us. It's even possible to criticize a candidate without being dickish. Maybe like: "I disagree with Candidate X's position on removing the blue-spotted bullfrog from the endangered species list because the blue-spotted bullfrog is an essential part of an ecosystem that has already been damaged by development" instead of "Candidate X is an anti-environment shitbag who is in the pockets of rich developers and eats blue-spotted bullfrogs for breakfast"?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)The former is unacceptable, particularly when its unsupported by any relevant facts. The latter is always welcome provided that it's honest and reasonably civil in tone.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)lewebley3
(3,412 posts)40RatRod
(532 posts)I am disappointed by the attacks I see on this site. Many attacks are so bad, they would seem to be coming from GOP trolls.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Slinging mud is out, but talking realistically and honestly about the problems of the candidates is part of the primary process.
Hillary is ahead. Why are Hillary supporters so worried about mudslinging? If their candidate is so great, they have nothing to worry about.
I don't see very many Sanders supporters complaining about mudslinging. Am I just missing something? There is very little mud to sling at Sanders of course. Maybe that is why.
Sanders pretty much is what he says he is.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)we can do it
(12,184 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,869 posts)hedgehog
(36,286 posts)something about Candidate B, then Candidate A looks awfully weak to me. I want to hear what a candidate thinks today, not what the other candidate wrote in a high school essay 40 years ago.
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)Some of the mud slinging I've seen is worthy of Republican tactics. Especially with the high likelihood of the SCOTUS being on the line this next cycle, having a Democrat.. ANY Democrat take the presidency is critical.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)When one of the candidates already has surrogates dispatched to all the pundit shows on cable to bad mouth another candidate.
But it sure looks like most of the unfounded personal attacks here are coming from supporters of that same candidate. In fact it's reminiscent of the tactics that candidate used unsuccessfully against our current president in an earlier presidential primary campaign.
Finally, as many other posters have pointed out, if it's true it isn't an ad hominem attack. If somebody's widdle feewings are hurted by having the truth about their records aired, perhaps they aren't suited for the presidency in the first place.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)It makes all Democrats look bad,,,, then again this may be their objective!
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)What's the fucking point when the bastards just sell you down the river anyway?
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Martin Eden
(12,864 posts)You should take your own advice and "just think about what you're putting out there" before you post.
You just posted a bunch of "negative shit" aimed at many DUers who have not engaged in anything like "implied racial innuendos" or "words that I won't even call my worst enemy." It is not "mudslinging" to speak the truth in a factual and reasonal manner about any candidate, even when it involves painful truths about a Democratic politician.
Have some posters on this board engaged in that kind of crap? Of course, and you will find that on any internet discussion board.
But they aren't your only targets.
You're aiming to shut down the kind of discussion that is absolutely essential to understanding the important choices before us in the coming election. Those who only look at the positive attributes of a candidate and turn a blind eye to the negative attributes (some of which are extremely consequential) have deliberately blinded themselves. Voters who refuse to keep an open mind and weigh all the qualities (both positive and negative) of politicians who seek the highest office in the land are part of the reason why the interests of average citizens are so poorly represented in our government.
I will be the first to say I don't have all the "REAL facts" about all the candidates in the Democratic primary. I want to know how each of them might be part of the solution and why any of them might be part of the problem.
If you already know everything there is to know, then bravo for you!
I will repeat:
It's not "mudslinging" to speak the truth about a candidate. If it's the truth, the mud is already there.
And it absolutely needs to be exposed to the light of day.
As you said, it's a free world. You can put on the blinders if you want to.
But when admonish others to put on the blinders, I will tell you where you can put them.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(9,112 posts)but my fingers have mind of their own.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)compare and contrast their rhetoric on an issue, and check their record, connections, and ideology to see if that rhetoric will bear any fruit or is just meant to expire the moment Roberts puts down his hand
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Yeah, you make an excellent point. Things are getting pretty nasty around here, with posts being hidden and threads blocked out of purely political motives. Is this the way Democrats treat each other? If so, we don't have a prayer against the Republicans.
jalan48
(13,863 posts)I remember underground newspapers and radio stations from the 60's and in NO Way would they have supported Johnson or Humphrey's position on the Vietnam War. They would never have said, "We'll support whoever wins the Democratic nomination". I think your statement belongs on the "official" website of Democratic Party. Underground means radical, leftist or liberal the last time I checked. Let's not pretend supporting Wall St. is an "underground" political position.
I've been thinking a lot about what "Underground" means at DU these days.
jalan48
(13,863 posts)Either we need to change the name or people need to be more accepting of differing, sometimes hostile, opinions. That doesn't mean personal attacks on posters, or openly racist or sexist postings should be allowed. I'm sure the administrators on here are perfectly capable of dealing with those kinds of issues.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Skinner has gone on record to say that he does not, his intention was nothing of the sort.
You're already quite aware of this, since it was in response to a query from you that Skinner made this clear (and thanks for your query, I had always wondered about the same thing, clearly the site's name is misleading):
http://election.democraticunderground.com/12597937#post1
We were the "Underground" fighting against the Republicans, who were in power at the time.
Ironically, it seems that many people took the name to mean "Underground fighting against Democrats." I was so naive. Back when I started this site I had no clue so many Democrats hated Democrats.
Skinner himself lists the DLC/PPI website in his website development portfolio, so he apparently worked for the DLC, that should give you some more perspective of how "underground" Skinner's intentions were.
http://web.archive.org/web/19991014035441/www.onlineworkshop.com/portfolio/
http://web.archive.org/web/19991127075202/http://dlcppi.org/
I think its good for more of us to be aware of this, most aren't. It is good to understand where the admins are coming from.
I am not a fan of the DLC wing of the party and policies such as TPP, but consider myself a good Democrat, in fact I feel that I strongly support what this party is supposed to be about, rather than supporting just any politician that chooses to place a D after his/her name.
I try to coexist here yet still state my positions, hopefully that is acceptable. I don't hate Democrats, I hate people pushing harmful policies whether they call themselves Democrats or Republicans.
I used the DINO word earlier today in a post, probably shouldn't have, I had just called Feinstein's office about the TPP and spoken to her staff, and that was my honest opinion after making that call. I could have phrased it differently, shouldn't have to though. Hopefully we can elect some better Democrats who care what we think, my impression of Feinstein has always been that she does not.
Peace.
jalan48
(13,863 posts)I do think the name is misleading, especially for us folks who were active in the 60's. I find it difficult to comprehend that Democrats would need to be "underground" when they had elected officials in office. When I asked the meaning of the name Skinner's answer to me was,
"We were the "Underground" fighting against the Republicans, who were in power at the time.
Ironically, it seems that many people took the name to mean "Underground fighting against Democrats." I was so naive. Back when I started this site I had no clue so many Democrats hated Democrats."
My next question was, "Why would we have to be 'underground? Couldn't the Democrats in office fight the Republicans?"
I never received an answer so I was still a bit confused by the name. Does that mean that the elected Democratic officials were really acting more like Republicans and therefore there was a need to go outside official channels? In that case it would make sense to me, though that is not the impression I am getting. Anyway, being an activist from the 60's I assumed the site was not part of the "mainstream" Democratic Party. It sounds like it is, though to what degree I am still uncertain. I think a discussion about the philosophy of the site would be a good thing, thanks for your response.
Also, I would like to thank Skinner and all those responsible for creating this site. Though we may disagree on some things I appreciate a place where I can get information and voice my opinion. Thanks again.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Maybe you missed that? David Allen is Skinner. I don't know his full involvement with making the DLC site (I would welcome him expanding on that so it is accurately understood, but I don't have any great need for him to do so) , but it is (was) right there in his company's portfolio.
My take on his perspective when choosing the name (Skinner please correct if this is not accurate) is that Democrats at that time, immediately after the G. W. Bush (s)election, and with virtually no voices in the mainstream media to represent their views, felt they had nowhere to turn (I know I felt that way, terrible time that was), and Skinner's intent was to form a site where Democrats could regroup while Bush had the White House. It probably sounded cool to use the "underground" term rather than something like democraticpartysupporters.com or whatever would have more accurately fit their mindset.
Anyway, it is what it is, we can choose to participate here (so long as we are allowed to) or not. Advocating for good policies and candidates who will push for them should aways be acceptable here, that's how I try to approach it.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)jalan48
(13,863 posts)I do remember what it was like after Bush stole the election and then the Iraq War, Shock and Awe, Phil Donahue etc. It does seem that many of our elected Democrats had to go along with Bush because of the media pressure. I can see where mainstream Democrats felt they had no voice though I do believe those we had elected could have said more.
I remember our underground newspaper in Seattle in the 60's, "The Helix". It served as a voice for those who opposed the Vietnam War and supported other issues like the fledging environmental and women's rights movements. Those issues were either not supported by the mainstream media or not reported upon. So, when I hear the term underground it has a more radical, progressive tinge to it than others might impute to the word. Thanks again for the information though I get the feeling the term 'underground' has different meanings for different people on this site.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Nice chattin' with you, I can tell you are one of the good ones here, so take care and stick around. I was a child in the 60's but am very familiar with alternative or "underground" media, I think the internet has swallowed a lot of it but some of it is still around. Don't know te Helix, sorry I missed it, northern California though so probably would not have been exposed to it anyway. You are right of course about the usual meaning of the word underground.
In case you don't know any of this, or in case others are reading who don't know, here's some info:
We can't openly advocate for 3rd party candidates, and certain words and modes of dealing with others get you banned, but there seems to be room to be yourself once you learn the rules.
Ask the Administrators and Forum Rules (you already know this one, putting the link here for convenience)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12598
There are also groups (aka forums) within DU, which enjoy special protected status (not sure to what degree the protection holds, but it is helpful). Among them are Populist Reform of the Democratic Party, Socialist Progressives, Bernie Sanders, I'm no doubt forgetting others on the left side of the spectrum, so see what's out there that works for you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forums
jalan48
(13,863 posts)I enjoy the discussions in DU and look forward to more in the future. Hopefully, more Republicans will be voted out of office and replaced with Democrats, the farther left the better as far as I am concerned. There was an underground paper called the 'Berkeley Barb' in the Bay Area for many years-it was one of the first on the West Coast as I remember. It was great chatting with you too and thanks for the kind words.
JA
kath
(10,565 posts)wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)rbnyc
(17,045 posts)Let me qualify that a little bit. Dirty mud-slinging, that sounds bad. It's hard to come out in favor of that. Why would I? And I do support Bernie Sanders who leads by example when it comes to positive campaigning.
I have posted while angry many times, and I have used venomous language in my personal assessments of the HRC candidacy. Mostly, that was while she was alone in the field and I was terrified that she would remain alone in the field.
It is easier to stay positive with an outstanding champion to support.
At the same time, too often when I see folks here raise serious concerns about Hillary, they are reflexively labeled as haters and their concerns are just dismissed. The Democratic Party is having trouble holding onto many liberals and progressives who are deeply concerned about corruption, campaign finance, income disparity, financial regulation, entrenched power, plutocracy, etc., and just calling our concerns baseless and hateful isn't really helping.
I don't trust party leadership, and I resent many of the concessions that have been made in the name of moderation and strategy - or subscription to the third way philosophy of essentially continuing to redistribute wealth from the middle to the top while holding voters in check with somewhat progressive positions on social issues. I think party leadership needs to change. And I think it's important to talk about that.
There is a kind of civil war going on within the Democratic Party. You can try not to take a side, but I don't know if that's the most helpful plan.
I have taken a side and...
progressoid
(49,988 posts)Who knew?
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)I actually like O'Malley, thought of supporting him but in the end didn't really go anywhere.
The toughest thing for me with jumping on board with anyone is this. I have a late primary and surrounded by states with late primaries. So this whole race could be done before I even get a chance to vote. I've put alot of energy into these primaries only to be burnt out by the time the general election came around (aka 2004). So I'd rather just enjoy the primaries from the sidelines because I know the the end I'll support whomever wins it. Yeah I would kinda like to see Bernie win it because he's more progressive but I like Hillary just as much too. I really wish Joe Biden would jump in the race but I doubt that will happen. But in the end any one of the democrats I would be proud to support if they get the nomination. But getting all bent out of shape about it now is only going to burn me out in the long run. And the negativity, just not the way to go, get's me pissed to see what people are doing to each other - serves no purpose whe the real enemy is the GOP.
If people want to write me off as a sideline sitter so be it. Doesn't mean I care less, just means I'll care more when it counts the most.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)But the more I think about it, the more I think the reprehensible behavior of the elite Democrats is much, much worse than a little mud slinging. That is why the Democratic Party, the US and the world are in the worst condition of my life and getting worse every day. I still agree with your point, but most of the top Democrats are Faustians worthy of our contempt.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)All that negative crap isn't just disingenuous and insulting. Most of it's dumber than dirt. The excuses for it are lame as hell. When posters double down on it like 'it's just the facts' and then continue insulting the other person's candidate, it suggests a few possibilities. That the poster is paranoid, narcissistic, condescending, arrogant, dimwitted, obsessive, compulsive, naive, idealistic, could need some herbal tea or a nice walk or nap. And / or hates all democrats.
Kingofalldems
(38,454 posts)Hekate
(90,674 posts)Sean23
(12 posts)Sanders is trying to run a no negative ad campaign and would be embarrassed to read the negative posts.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Cha
(297,196 posts)everything about the person who's posting stupid, ignorant rw shite and nothing about the candidate.
Disagreeing and critiquing is one thing but that's not what a seeming majority here is all about..
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