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LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:42 AM Jun 2015

Stop with the damn dirty politics against other Democrats

Seriously, just makes the person posting it look stupid.

If you can't sell your candidate without posting negative shit about the other one then maybe your candidate isn't really that viable to start. And btw both sides does it.

BTW I know this isn't the O'Malley and Chaffee supporters doing it.

I can almost assure you that neither Bernie Sanders nor Hillary Clinton appreciates it that you're posting negative shit about the other candidate. In fact I would think they would be pretty damn embarassed if they read some of the stuff you are posting against the other person.

Save the mud-slinging for the fall election! I think we have enough REAL facts about each candidate that can be used without going negative nelly posting innuendos of implied racism or using words that I won't even call my worst enemy.

Consider this - at this point you probably aren't going to change anyone's opinion on who they are supporting and your post really isn't anything more than a random rant on the internets. But I'd like to think that the DU is a place where we are a bit more thoughtful than say the Free Republic.

For the few undecides out there you aren't going to win them over with the negative crap, if anything it's a real turn-off.

But in the end it's a free world but before you post your rant to the world just think about what you are putting out there and ask yourself this - 'If my candidate of choice read this would they be proud of what I am saying or embarassed as hell?'

That is all.

And please, no negative shit in my thread please about who started it first or why your post is justified. I've heard it all. I just wanted to get this rant off my chest in hopes that perhaps we can have better discussions about the candidates - which are the ones I try to read. I do try to read positive posts about rallies and discussion about the issues. Every once in awhile I click on a mudslinger thread and it's like

120 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Stop with the damn dirty politics against other Democrats (Original Post) LynneSin Jun 2015 OP
Thanks and I agree. At the end of the day, we'll have a nominee and we'll need to pull together. FSogol Jun 2015 #1
Amen to that. tosh Jun 2015 #2
K&R - Harshly negative posts about Democratic candidates are a big turn-off. MineralMan Jun 2015 #3
Bingo! RoccoR5955 Jun 2015 #4
Exposing Hillary's many misdeeds is not about Bernie Sanders. It's about avoiding another DINO. Scuba Jun 2015 #5
No offense, but "DINO" is the kind of bullshit... Adrahil Jun 2015 #7
Hey, if you think a pro-war, pro-Wall Street, pro-fracking, pro-TPP woman can be a Democrat ... Scuba Jun 2015 #13
No more and no less than simplistic bumper-stickers are yours... LanternWaste Jun 2015 #17
Of course.... Adrahil Jun 2015 #19
No offense, but we are a divided party. Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #35
Post of the thread! LiberalLovinLug Jun 2015 #64
Indeed rbnyc Jun 2015 #81
Democrats in Congress have 3 sub caucuses: Progressive, Blue Dog, and New Democrat. merrily Jun 2015 #101
We're not THAT divided.... Adrahil Jun 2015 #119
"DINO" is Ignorant bullshite.. "another dino".. is another ignorant cheap pot shot at President Cha Jun 2015 #112
The biggest bullshit anybody can post is calling Hillary Clinton a DINO. MohRokTah Jun 2015 #12
Meh. Scuba Jun 2015 #14
A DIDO (Democrat in Deed Only) is worth a thousand riding the brand. TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #50
Bernie Sanders is no Democrat. eom MohRokTah Jun 2015 #79
Then being one isn't worth the ink I used to fill out my registration. TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #109
If he doesn't stand for democratic principles passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #110
Thanks for providing an example of the problem Politicub Jun 2015 #43
I agree with you .. the problem is yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #6
Google the author? Adrahil Jun 2015 #9
All of this stuff takes TIME...and Time means someone else will post it first. yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #15
Why is important that you post it first? Adrahil Jun 2015 #18
If I don't post first someone else yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #30
Just make sure said kitty photos haven't been posted before. Beartracks Jun 2015 #59
Heh...you made me smile!! stop that! yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #63
Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #29
Yeah fuck yeah yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #31
Post removed Post removed Jun 2015 #38
Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #42
And we could do with less of your posts around here. I think that'll happen soon enough. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #44
Post removed Post removed Jun 2015 #45
and your response seems to exemplify the OP's point. Dyedinthewoolliberal Jun 2015 #53
I hope they get rid of you. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #55
Gone LiberalLovinLug Jun 2015 #58
Thank you. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #62
Enjoy your stay! BeanMusical Jun 2015 #49
Wow. It's like the House Un-American Activities Committee has been reborn. jtuck004 Jun 2015 #51
There is no need to google an author. That's just lazy, echo chamber thinking-- Marr Jun 2015 #40
I wouldn't worry about that so much. Raine1967 Jun 2015 #65
No I am done... yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #66
I understand the frustration. Raine1967 Jun 2015 #68
I have access to many Asian news websites... yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #69
Don't let the trolls and disruptors get you down here Rhiannon12866 Jun 2015 #85
This person is no troll... yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #87
I take your point Rhiannon12866 Jun 2015 #90
Sorry Rhiannon I am done... yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #92
I know I'm not going to change your mind Rhiannon12866 Jun 2015 #93
I am sad about that. Admiral Loinpresser Jun 2015 #94
I will post in GD...and yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #96
If it's any consolation, Admiral Loinpresser Jun 2015 #98
You shouldn't let it bother you when someone questions your source. Most of the time I don't know A Simple Game Jun 2015 #78
I'll say this bigtree Jun 2015 #8
but ultimately, this board is about advancing Democrats and defeating Republicans. Adrahil Jun 2015 #10
it doesn't remove your bias to claim that you're for 'advancing Democrats' bigtree Jun 2015 #20
Of course, it is all subjective..... Adrahil Jun 2015 #24
I happen to think the two criticisms you raised are absolutely fair bigtree Jun 2015 #36
Totally. I think we all need to remember it, regardless which Democrat we're supporting. calimary Jun 2015 #88
If you think it is a skewed cheap shot, then defend your candidate passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #114
That's not the point, though, is it? Adrahil Jun 2015 #118
What may be a perjorative reference to you, passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #120
You can ask for comity all you want...People come here to fight! DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #11
Gandhi said this about the 2016 primaries... LanternWaste Jun 2015 #16
Gandhi was so ahead of his time! LynneSin Jun 2015 #32
Well, it looks like at least one of the folks posting 6+ anti-Hillary hit OPs per day is on a stevenleser Jun 2015 #21
^^^^ THIS ^^^^ Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #70
DUers should be able to post the pros and the cons of our candidates. demmiblue Jun 2015 #22
Nothing wrong with negative when it is based on facts and not innuendos LynneSin Jun 2015 #37
Also, starting a meta thread in GD is just asking for trouble. n/t demmiblue Jun 2015 #23
We are fortunate to have some great candidates in this election. Laser102 Jun 2015 #25
Meta in GD but of course this will be allowed to stand! nt Logical Jun 2015 #26
+1 Of course it will. BeanMusical Jun 2015 #54
Agreed-a Sanders supporter evidently felt that calling me a bad father would win my support Gothmog Jun 2015 #27
I agree 100%. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2015 #28
We can all tell the difference between campaign "hit pieces" and information about a candidate leveymg Jun 2015 #33
K&R liberal N proud Jun 2015 #34
Agreed! Dem bashing helps the GOP lewebley3 Jun 2015 #39
Well said and very true! 40RatRod Jun 2015 #41
I don't think it is helpful to cover up the weaknesses of the candidates. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #46
K&R! stonecutter357 Jun 2015 #47
Looks like someone's getting nervous Fearless Jun 2015 #48
This can't be said enough. we can do it Jun 2015 #52
A kay and and arr !! SCantiGOP Jun 2015 #56
Mud slinging can be counter-productive - if Candidate A or candidate A's supporters are spreading hedgehog Jun 2015 #57
K&R mate. Main matter is that whomever wins primary for us wins the General. Amimnoch Jun 2015 #60
It really doesn't count for much what takes place on an online forum tularetom Jun 2015 #61
Amen Cryptoad Jun 2015 #67
You mean like passing the TPP? truebrit71 Jun 2015 #71
K & R SunSeeker Jun 2015 #72
LynneSin, you are about as wrong as you can be. Martin Eden Jun 2015 #73
+1 AtomicKitten Jun 2015 #91
My head and heart totally agree, SleeplessinSoCal Jun 2015 #74
agreed! we'll talk only about past proposals and policies, their role in the party structure, MisterP Jun 2015 #75
More cowbell! HassleCat Jun 2015 #76
"Underground"? jalan48 Jun 2015 #77
+1 rbnyc Jun 2015 #82
Me too. I don't think some of the folks on here really know what the term means. jalan48 Jun 2015 #83
Though I share your view of the word underground, dreamnightwind Jun 2015 #100
I think maybe a mission statement for this site would be appropriate. jalan48 Jun 2015 #102
Seeing David Allen as the DLC site designer didn't answer it for you? dreamnightwind Jun 2015 #103
See my sig line wyldwolf Jun 2015 #106
Thanks for the clarification. I guess the name David Allen didn't ring a bell. jalan48 Jun 2015 #107
No problem dreamnightwind Jun 2015 #113
Thanks for the info. jalan48 Jun 2015 #117
Very good point. kath Jun 2015 #84
I'll just go with the founder of this site's definition of Underground. wyldwolf Jun 2015 #105
You know I love you, but no. rbnyc Jun 2015 #80
DU has O'Malley and Chaffee supporters? progressoid Jun 2015 #86
Metric users for Chafee? LynneSin Jun 2015 #89
My first reaction was to agree. Admiral Loinpresser Jun 2015 #95
Very much agree LynneSin. lovemydog Jun 2015 #97
Amen. One of the worst offenders is on timeout. Kingofalldems Jun 2015 #99
Amen, sister Hekate Jun 2015 #104
No negative ads and comments Sean23 Jun 2015 #108
I'm confused...are you talking to Obama? ibegurpard Jun 2015 #111
Here was some dirty politics against Democrats. PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #115
It's nice of you to ask, Lynne.. but that's not going to happen. On the plus side.. it only says Cha Jun 2015 #116

FSogol

(45,483 posts)
1. Thanks and I agree. At the end of the day, we'll have a nominee and we'll need to pull together.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:44 AM
Jun 2015

We need big wins in 2016 and need everyone's vote.

MineralMan

(146,288 posts)
3. K&R - Harshly negative posts about Democratic candidates are a big turn-off.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:51 AM
Jun 2015

They help nobody's cause.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
4. Bingo!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:53 AM
Jun 2015

I am getting a bit sick of hearing this. Especially this early on.
Save the insults for the general election, when we can go after the chosen member of the circus ocean liner which is full of RepubliCON "candidates."

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
7. No offense, but "DINO" is the kind of bullshit...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:06 PM
Jun 2015

that will divide this party. You do not get to decide who is a real Democrat.

And I don't know what you mean by "another" DINO.

You don;t have to agree with a candidate on every issue for them to be a "real" Democrat.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
13. Hey, if you think a pro-war, pro-Wall Street, pro-fracking, pro-TPP woman can be a Democrat ...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:10 PM
Jun 2015

... that's your business.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
17. No more and no less than simplistic bumper-stickers are yours...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:15 PM
Jun 2015

"... that's your business."

No more and no less than simplistic bumper-stickers are yours...

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
19. Of course....
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jun 2015

Hillary's positions on those things are WAY more complicated than you indicate.

But hey, you have an axe to grind, so I don't expect nuance.

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
35. No offense, but we are a divided party.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:40 PM
Jun 2015

We can all begrudgingly come together for the sake of avoiding an R president in the general, but there is a bitter and growing divide between third way, and the right & proper way dems.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,173 posts)
64. Post of the thread!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jun 2015

It is dishonest not to accept this reality.
We will all come together, and if Hillary is nominated, I have no doubt that the vast majority of DU will vote for her...even if it is thought of as a "best of two evils" vote.

But until that happens, there is nothing wrong with holding a candidates feet to the fire. Not just DU, but Daily Kos, Huffington Post, and also mainstream avenues...we should not be cowed into biting our tongues if we see something we don't like in a candidate. I do agree that there is a limit, especially using sexist, or vulgar slurs. But you cannot just nail down peoples emotions. Example: Obama's bull-headed push to pass the TPP. There is a divide in the Democratic Party. Those on the left never wavered, its the right wing of the party that has taken the ball (ie. all leadership positions and the DLC) and moved way to the right. Some of us will not be dragged there without kicking and screaming.

rbnyc

(17,045 posts)
81. Indeed
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 03:04 PM
Jun 2015

Primary season is the time to advance the values we want to advance and call party leadership into question.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
101. Democrats in Congress have 3 sub caucuses: Progressive, Blue Dog, and New Democrat.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:59 PM
Jun 2015

And some who don't caucus, other than with the Democratic Caucus. That's four right there. And I very much doubt everyone agrees with all the other members of his or her group.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
119. We're not THAT divided....
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 11:43 AM
Jun 2015

I mean, I took the "match your candidate" poll. I agree with Bernie 98% of the time and Hillary 91%. Honest to Jeebus, I can't see that all those bullshit is worth 7%. Not when my match with the BEST Repug was below 25%.

Cha

(297,196 posts)
112. "DINO" is Ignorant bullshite.. "another dino".. is another ignorant cheap pot shot at President
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:36 PM
Jun 2015

Obama.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
12. The biggest bullshit anybody can post is calling Hillary Clinton a DINO.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:10 PM
Jun 2015

It's especially bullshit coming from a supporter of somebody who isn't even a Democrat

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
110. If he doesn't stand for democratic principles
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:09 PM
Jun 2015

then what is he?

Are you against social democracy? Are you for the 1%? Because unless you are, I can't understand how you can say he's not a democrat. He is not a democrat by party affiliation, but by his standards he's the best democrat I've seen in my lifetime.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
43. Thanks for providing an example of the problem
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:59 PM
Jun 2015

I get it. Mudslinging and playing to people's worst instincts are the secrets to the GOP's and Fox News' success. They do it for a reason - it works for them. It replaces critical thinking with a a pithy soundbite. Maybe that's all of politics.

But we should be above such petty nonsense.

The word DINO says and means nothing in the context of Hillary's career. The democratic party evolves over time. I believe that's the strength of our party and why it will last long into the future.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
6. I agree with you .. the problem is
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:03 PM
Jun 2015

That I find articles from established magazines and post them, but I don't know the authors or who they are, or what their politics is. I guess that means I should stop posting them, but THERE are many here who don't know about an author either. That means we have to go look them up on Wikipedia or something? That's already happened to me..

"How dare you post that article by Joe Schmoe!! He's a fucking Rightwing hack!! You must be a troll introducing that shit on DU!! "

FUCK...how am I supposed to know? I have posted thousands of articles from magazines and Newspapers and never had someone tell me.. that!!

SO now what? Stop posting?? Or STAY WITH SAFE SUBJECTS...like cute photos of Kitty cats!

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
9. Google the author?
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:07 PM
Jun 2015

I've weeded out a number of "selective information" hit pieces by googling the author's "work."

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
15. All of this stuff takes TIME...and Time means someone else will post it first.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:11 PM
Jun 2015

NOT only that...But we have to check if someone else posted the article...IT MAY have already been posted on DU a day ago, or a week ago or even a month ago. SO maybe I should just shut the fuck up and stop posting articles, since people think I must be a fucking right wing troll, or a HILLARY HATER!!,...

KAMI SAMA...this is fucking frustrating.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
30. If I don't post first someone else
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jun 2015

will beat me to it, and than I get flack for re-posting the same thing all over again, which is frustrating. You are right, I should just back the fuck off and stop posting.. and stick with cute kitty photos.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
63. Heh...you made me smile!! stop that!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jun 2015

kidding, okay..no really, I think I am done posting anything more on Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton. I am tired of the cheap shots at me. I am done. I will be focusing on news stories other than that.. and am removing myself from the Bernie Sanders group. I do better reporting stuff about what is happening in Asia.. and so from now on, that's where I will focus.

Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #15)

Response to Name removed (Reply #29)

Response to Post removed (Reply #38)

Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #44)

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
51. Wow. It's like the House Un-American Activities Committee has been reborn.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:22 PM
Jun 2015

( Why do your posts always say 3 even after you keep posting your bullying comments?)

Anyway, thought I would add my 2 cents since the other person who called you out got their post hidden and I WANT TO STAND WITH THEM.

Perhaps you can send this one to the jury as well, so others can see what kind of intolerant ass clown you are?

Frankly, if they want your rude and narrow-minded belittling of long-time and diligent DU posters by someone who appears to be little more than a troll, they can have you.

In spades.


 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
40. There is no need to google an author. That's just lazy, echo chamber thinking--
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:49 PM
Jun 2015

protecting yourself from even hearing other points of view, much less considering them.

Research their claims, absolutely. Check their facts. But if you're weeding out arguments simply because they don't come from people you already agree with, you're just gazing into your own navel.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
65. I wouldn't worry about that so much.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:48 PM
Jun 2015

It's not like you are posting from straight up RW hate sites.

If we all start worrying THAT much about basically benign writers, nothing will ever be pure enough.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
66. No I am done...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:51 PM
Jun 2015

I have decided to leave the Bernie Sanders group and stop posting on him or Hillary all together. From now on, I will post stories about what I know, which is Asia. I will keep my opinions about who is running for President to myself. I am done with it.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
68. I understand the frustration.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:54 PM
Jun 2015

I am an O'malley supporter and I really try to stay out of those battles.

They are not changing any one's mind.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
69. I have access to many Asian news websites...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:59 PM
Jun 2015

I will stop taking stuff from Twitter, and stop posting any articles about the Candidates. I have removed myself from the group, and am totally done with it..I look forward to posting stuff about Japan, South Korea, China and other places that have news of interest.

Rhiannon12866

(205,319 posts)
85. Don't let the trolls and disruptors get you down here
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:01 PM
Jun 2015

It's the season and MIRT is on the job, getting rid of them as fast as we can. That one didn't last long...

Rhiannon12866

(205,319 posts)
90. I take your point
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:18 PM
Jun 2015

Feelings are running really high here just now. It's primary season and it's inevitable, sad, but it's been like this before. I remember being shocked back in 2004 when I read some of the comments. But we survived that and we'll get past this - eventually. Ignore is your friend right now - as is alert. Insults aren't acceptable from anybody. MIRT is on the job, and we're very, very busy...

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
92. Sorry Rhiannon I am done...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:26 PM
Jun 2015

I have left the group. I will only post about stuff I know, for example on Asian affairs and what happens in Japan. I will vote for who I think is best in the future, but will keep my opinions to myself. I don't need a hostile atmosphere, and don't need people assuming I am some Republican plant here to disrupt the conversation.

Rhiannon12866

(205,319 posts)
93. I know I'm not going to change your mind
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:34 PM
Jun 2015

Just hang in there and don't hesitate to alert if you see anything more like the one that was just dispatched. Letting you know that MIRT has your back here...

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
94. I am sad about that.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:37 PM
Jun 2015

I have enjoyed your posts and will continue to watch for you.

In presidential cycles DU becomes very toxic. It is too bad that good people like you get hurt in the process. I have been ready to walk away in the past and may yet some day. Best wishes!

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
98. If it's any consolation,
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:12 PM
Jun 2015

it appears that you helped to get rid of some jerk in the thread above. As the Australians say: "Good on ya!"

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
78. You shouldn't let it bother you when someone questions your source. Most of the time I don't know
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:54 PM
Jun 2015

if a source is left, right, or down the middle nor do I care as long as I know the facts are correct. I usually read two or three articles and then grab the top one on the google page or just link to the google page itself.

One thing I have noticed about the complainers is that they can take the time to research the source and/or author but not find time to research the fact and refute it. In other words they can't argue against the facts so they have to argue against the messenger. It is mostly a diversionary tactic.

Don't quit posting and don't lose any sleep over the nit pickers, because that is all they can do is nit pick. Also remember this is DU, if you said water was wet, someone would go to their freezer pick up an ice cube, put it back down, go back to their computer and type "no, it's not wet."

Go find a couple of cat pictures to coo over then come back here and post away! Don't let the nit pickers get to you, it's just the internet!" When I get one of those stupid post I say "Good! Proof that I'm not the stupidest person on the internet today." Then some days I think half of the people on the internet are bipolar, and other days I think the other half is.

Have a nice day and keep on posting.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
8. I'll say this
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:07 PM
Jun 2015

...Du isn't a campaign board, it's a discussion board where people come to express how the really feel about political issues and politicians. It should be recognized that there are very candid conversations outside of this board about these politicians that would make the average Duer blush.

Moreover, there isn't always gong to be a clear mark where everyone is going to agree that an issue raised, a question asked, or a criticism rendered is fair game or mud-slinging, as you put it. You should know well that perception is almost always different on one side of the political or candidate fence or the other.

I'm all for positive posts, but this isn't tiddlywinks, it's raw and aggressive politics with egos involved almost as large as the candidates' themselves; and motivations, interests, and concerns which are often very real and heartfelt.

We can certainly make judgments about what posts we think are 'mud-slinging,' but moralizing about people making critical posts about these career politicians is a subjective exercise bordering on censorship. Generalizing on them is a dubious and questionable practice, at best.

I realize that you mean well, but I think it's best to let the fur fly and accept that these candidates and the issues they represent - as well as the manner in which they represent them - is going to be controversial to someone at some point, and it's inevitable that will be remarked on or highlighted here. That's the nature of an open discussion.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
10. but ultimately, this board is about advancing Democrats and defeating Republicans.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:09 PM
Jun 2015

I think it's fine to advocate for your candidate. I think it sucks to take skewed, cheap shots at other Democrats. It does not serve our purpose in the end, IMO.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
20. it doesn't remove your bias to claim that you're for 'advancing Democrats'
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:20 PM
Jun 2015

...and, again, 'cheap shots' are likely to be in the eye of the beholder; namely which candidate or position you favor.

If one's 'purpose' is in advancing Democratic issues, initiatives, or principles, that's at least as important as advancing the career of a politician.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
24. Of course, it is all subjective.....
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:27 PM
Jun 2015

But I will say I oppose cheap shots against Bernie too, such as the suggestion that he doesn't support racial justice enough, or that he is somehow not pro-woman enough. Those suggestions are bullshit, IMO.

But to me, it's not about advancing a particular political career, it's about ensuring we win the White House, and as many other down-ticket races as possible, in 2016. I don't see how many of the posts here support that effort.

I happen to think Hillary is our best shot at that. I am perfectly willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but over-the-top nonsense like calling her a DINO or Republican-lite is harmful, IMO. I mean, it sure as hell doesn't convince me that Bernie is the guy to support. But maybe that was never the goal to begin with.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
36. I happen to think the two criticisms you raised are absolutely fair
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:41 PM
Jun 2015

...and applied to ALL of our candidates.

In the real world, people are looking to see if these candidates are emphasizing, prioritizing, or effectively representing many issues which directly concern them. Certainly issues and concerns related to race and gender are paramount to many Americans. I wouldn't presume at all to tell someone they shouldn't express criticism of these candidates if they feel they are falling short of that representation of their particular concerns. That's what campaigns are all about; convincing voters that these politicians are on our side. Reducing participation in a primary campaign discussion to 'electability' is a betrayal of those legitimate concerns.

Of course, name-calling is offensive and inflammatory. However, characterizing positions and views of these politicians is what we do in real life and should be respected as free expression. I don't think we should try and restrict that exercise of our opinion here of these political figures just to satisfy the sensibilities of Duers or shy way because someone thinks an adjective or two is going to throw the election.

I can just see the history books now...

Sen. So & So's political decline began the day DUer, bigtree, made an unflattering comment about a statement the senator made. Lol.

calimary

(81,238 posts)
88. Totally. I think we all need to remember it, regardless which Democrat we're supporting.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:13 PM
Jun 2015

We need OUR OWN "11th Commandment" like the one ronald reagan had for republi-CONS. Ours would state:

"Thou shalt not speak ill of another Democrat."

All I'll say about the divisiveness that's building here between one candidate's followers and another candidate's followers - Bernie Sanders has already stated that he is not, and will not be, a spoiler. If he doesn't get the nomination, he's already said he won't break away and run as an independent, but will support the Democratic nominee. Because he wisely points out that it's FAR more important to keep the White House in Democratic hands. FAR MORE IMPORTANT. Whoever sits in that Oval Office is the one who gets to pick the next Supreme Court nominees. And for me, frankly, that's pretty much all I need to know.

I, too, have already stated (as have other Hillary supporters on this board) that we will be proud to support and vote for Bernie Sanders if he beats Hillary to the nomination. I wish I saw that, correspondingly, from other camps. And unfortunately, I do not.

We cannot afford for ANY of us to stay home and pout on Election Day. We Just CAN'T. I certainly have no plans to do that. None whatsoever.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
114. If you think it is a skewed cheap shot, then defend your candidate
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:45 PM
Jun 2015

with substantive proof that it is wrong. Attack the message, not the messenger. (not saying you have done this...just making a point to everyone).

Don't get defensive. If you (again, not you personally) become defensive and angry...even if it is a first and natural reaction, it just looks like you don't have a leg to stand on.

And yes, this board is about advancing democrats, but there are different kinds of democrats. Some want a centrist or third way...some want a more progressive type. We are not going to always agree on who should be advanced, especially in the primaries. Some of us feel very strongly about who should be winning the primary; and I think it's fair and necessary to bring these discussions to the table now that we are still in the primaries.

I think we can do it without fighting, if we try to keep our emotions in check and try to understand what the other person is saying, and why. Remember they are coming from a place that is probably very emotional too.

JMHO

I'm not always tactful, and I apologize in advance to anyone I've unintentionally angered or insulted. I am very emotionally involved in supporting Bernie. I understand that many are emotionally involved in supporting Hillary, even if I can't understand why.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
118. That's not the point, though, is it?
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 11:40 AM
Jun 2015

I'm fine with criticizing a candidates policy positions, or votes, or what have you. Fair game.

But using pejorative references can't be defended against because they are vague. It boils down to a childish game of name calling. We should avoid that. It's the worst kind of Faux News sound bite politics.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
120. What may be a perjorative reference to you,
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jun 2015

may be something someone really believes about your candidate. And if that is true, why not try to teach them they are wrong?

I'm always open to learning that someone is maybe not what I thought they were. Always. As long as it's done in a defensive or acerbic manner.

If what is posted that you think is perjorative, is not done in such a manner, it may really be that person's honest belief.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
11. You can ask for comity all you want...People come here to fight!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:09 PM
Jun 2015

it would probably better for their health if they went to the gym and hit the heavy bag.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
16. Gandhi said this about the 2016 primaries...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:14 PM
Jun 2015

Gandhi said this about the 2016 primaries...

“I like your candidate, I do not like your candidate's supporters. Your candidate's supporters are so unlike your candidate.”

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
21. Well, it looks like at least one of the folks posting 6+ anti-Hillary hit OPs per day is on a
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:20 PM
Jun 2015

5-hide-induced timeout so perhaps things are on the road to getting better.

demmiblue

(36,845 posts)
22. DUers should be able to post the pros and the cons of our candidates.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:22 PM
Jun 2015

The problem that arises is when posters use disingenuity, lying and pretzel- twisting in order to make the opposing opponent look bad.

Plus, there are safe haven groups which can and do weed out the negative talk regarding candidates (and ban those who do not follow the SoP of the group).

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
37. Nothing wrong with negative when it is based on facts and not innuendos
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:45 PM
Jun 2015

Hillary or Bernie's voting record - FACT

Making vague associations to try to make Hillary or Bernie sound like they are Racist, Homophobic or anti-anything - just really bad bad commentary.

And btw at some point we have to assume we all have a bad history. If I ever ran for office you can assume that in my past I have done and/or said thing that could be construed as either racist or homophobic. I grew up in rural Pennsylvania and I know in my youth I said some stupid shit. But then I became an adult, met people and realized what a dumbass I was. People do evolve on their opinions. Hell Obama vocally supported DOMA but even he evolved on that stance. I've listened to Joe Biden talk about his vote to support Bush with the war and his regrets because there were doubts and 'what ifs'. In the end I have to look at the big picture especially with a general election.

Laser102

(816 posts)
25. We are fortunate to have some great candidates in this election.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:28 PM
Jun 2015

Anyone of them can beat the republican nominee. Who ever that clown may be.

Gothmog

(145,176 posts)
27. Agreed-a Sanders supporter evidently felt that calling me a bad father would win my support
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jun 2015

That was a really bad move

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,683 posts)
28. I agree 100%.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:30 PM
Jun 2015

It's possible to support the candidate of your choice without slinging mud at another. The GOPers will take care of that for us. It's even possible to criticize a candidate without being dickish. Maybe like: "I disagree with Candidate X's position on removing the blue-spotted bullfrog from the endangered species list because the blue-spotted bullfrog is an essential part of an ecosystem that has already been damaged by development" instead of "Candidate X is an anti-environment shitbag who is in the pockets of rich developers and eats blue-spotted bullfrogs for breakfast"?

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
33. We can all tell the difference between campaign "hit pieces" and information about a candidate
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:36 PM
Jun 2015

The former is unacceptable, particularly when its unsupported by any relevant facts. The latter is always welcome provided that it's honest and reasonably civil in tone.

40RatRod

(532 posts)
41. Well said and very true!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:52 PM
Jun 2015

I am disappointed by the attacks I see on this site. Many attacks are so bad, they would seem to be coming from GOP trolls.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
46. I don't think it is helpful to cover up the weaknesses of the candidates.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:11 PM
Jun 2015

Slinging mud is out, but talking realistically and honestly about the problems of the candidates is part of the primary process.

Hillary is ahead. Why are Hillary supporters so worried about mudslinging? If their candidate is so great, they have nothing to worry about.

I don't see very many Sanders supporters complaining about mudslinging. Am I just missing something? There is very little mud to sling at Sanders of course. Maybe that is why.

Sanders pretty much is what he says he is.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
57. Mud slinging can be counter-productive - if Candidate A or candidate A's supporters are spreading
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jun 2015

something about Candidate B, then Candidate A looks awfully weak to me. I want to hear what a candidate thinks today, not what the other candidate wrote in a high school essay 40 years ago.

 

Amimnoch

(4,558 posts)
60. K&R mate. Main matter is that whomever wins primary for us wins the General.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jun 2015

Some of the mud slinging I've seen is worthy of Republican tactics. Especially with the high likelihood of the SCOTUS being on the line this next cycle, having a Democrat.. ANY Democrat take the presidency is critical.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
61. It really doesn't count for much what takes place on an online forum
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:40 PM
Jun 2015

When one of the candidates already has surrogates dispatched to all the pundit shows on cable to bad mouth another candidate.

But it sure looks like most of the unfounded personal attacks here are coming from supporters of that same candidate. In fact it's reminiscent of the tactics that candidate used unsuccessfully against our current president in an earlier presidential primary campaign.

Finally, as many other posters have pointed out, if it's true it isn't an ad hominem attack. If somebody's widdle feewings are hurted by having the truth about their records aired, perhaps they aren't suited for the presidency in the first place.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
71. You mean like passing the TPP?
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:12 PM
Jun 2015

What's the fucking point when the bastards just sell you down the river anyway?

Martin Eden

(12,864 posts)
73. LynneSin, you are about as wrong as you can be.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:18 PM
Jun 2015

You should take your own advice and "just think about what you're putting out there" before you post.

You just posted a bunch of "negative shit" aimed at many DUers who have not engaged in anything like "implied racial innuendos" or "words that I won't even call my worst enemy." It is not "mudslinging" to speak the truth in a factual and reasonal manner about any candidate, even when it involves painful truths about a Democratic politician.

Have some posters on this board engaged in that kind of crap? Of course, and you will find that on any internet discussion board.

But they aren't your only targets.

You're aiming to shut down the kind of discussion that is absolutely essential to understanding the important choices before us in the coming election. Those who only look at the positive attributes of a candidate and turn a blind eye to the negative attributes (some of which are extremely consequential) have deliberately blinded themselves. Voters who refuse to keep an open mind and weigh all the qualities (both positive and negative) of politicians who seek the highest office in the land are part of the reason why the interests of average citizens are so poorly represented in our government.

I will be the first to say I don't have all the "REAL facts" about all the candidates in the Democratic primary. I want to know how each of them might be part of the solution and why any of them might be part of the problem.

If you already know everything there is to know, then bravo for you!

I will repeat:
It's not "mudslinging" to speak the truth about a candidate. If it's the truth, the mud is already there.

And it absolutely needs to be exposed to the light of day.

As you said, it's a free world. You can put on the blinders if you want to.

But when admonish others to put on the blinders, I will tell you where you can put them.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
75. agreed! we'll talk only about past proposals and policies, their role in the party structure,
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:41 PM
Jun 2015

compare and contrast their rhetoric on an issue, and check their record, connections, and ideology to see if that rhetoric will bear any fruit or is just meant to expire the moment Roberts puts down his hand

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
76. More cowbell!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:47 PM
Jun 2015

Yeah, you make an excellent point. Things are getting pretty nasty around here, with posts being hidden and threads blocked out of purely political motives. Is this the way Democrats treat each other? If so, we don't have a prayer against the Republicans.

jalan48

(13,863 posts)
77. "Underground"?
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:50 PM
Jun 2015

I remember underground newspapers and radio stations from the 60's and in NO Way would they have supported Johnson or Humphrey's position on the Vietnam War. They would never have said, "We'll support whoever wins the Democratic nomination". I think your statement belongs on the "official" website of Democratic Party. Underground means radical, leftist or liberal the last time I checked. Let's not pretend supporting Wall St. is an "underground" political position.

jalan48

(13,863 posts)
83. Me too. I don't think some of the folks on here really know what the term means.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 03:31 PM
Jun 2015

Either we need to change the name or people need to be more accepting of differing, sometimes hostile, opinions. That doesn't mean personal attacks on posters, or openly racist or sexist postings should be allowed. I'm sure the administrators on here are perfectly capable of dealing with those kinds of issues.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
100. Though I share your view of the word underground,
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:33 PM
Jun 2015

Skinner has gone on record to say that he does not, his intention was nothing of the sort.

You're already quite aware of this, since it was in response to a query from you that Skinner made this clear (and thanks for your query, I had always wondered about the same thing, clearly the site's name is misleading):

http://election.democraticunderground.com/12597937#post1

We were the "Underground" fighting against the Republicans, who were in power at the time.

Ironically, it seems that many people took the name to mean "Underground fighting against Democrats." I was so naive. Back when I started this site I had no clue so many Democrats hated Democrats.


Skinner himself lists the DLC/PPI website in his website development portfolio, so he apparently worked for the DLC, that should give you some more perspective of how "underground" Skinner's intentions were.

http://web.archive.org/web/19991014035441/www.onlineworkshop.com/portfolio/
http://web.archive.org/web/19991127075202/http://dlcppi.org/

I think its good for more of us to be aware of this, most aren't. It is good to understand where the admins are coming from.

I am not a fan of the DLC wing of the party and policies such as TPP, but consider myself a good Democrat, in fact I feel that I strongly support what this party is supposed to be about, rather than supporting just any politician that chooses to place a D after his/her name.

I try to coexist here yet still state my positions, hopefully that is acceptable. I don't hate Democrats, I hate people pushing harmful policies whether they call themselves Democrats or Republicans.

I used the DINO word earlier today in a post, probably shouldn't have, I had just called Feinstein's office about the TPP and spoken to her staff, and that was my honest opinion after making that call. I could have phrased it differently, shouldn't have to though. Hopefully we can elect some better Democrats who care what we think, my impression of Feinstein has always been that she does not.

Peace.

jalan48

(13,863 posts)
102. I think maybe a mission statement for this site would be appropriate.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:01 PM
Jun 2015

I do think the name is misleading, especially for us folks who were active in the 60's. I find it difficult to comprehend that Democrats would need to be "underground" when they had elected officials in office. When I asked the meaning of the name Skinner's answer to me was,
"We were the "Underground" fighting against the Republicans, who were in power at the time.
Ironically, it seems that many people took the name to mean "Underground fighting against Democrats." I was so naive. Back when I started this site I had no clue so many Democrats hated Democrats."

My next question was, "Why would we have to be 'underground? Couldn't the Democrats in office fight the Republicans?"

I never received an answer so I was still a bit confused by the name. Does that mean that the elected Democratic officials were really acting more like Republicans and therefore there was a need to go outside official channels? In that case it would make sense to me, though that is not the impression I am getting. Anyway, being an activist from the 60's I assumed the site was not part of the "mainstream" Democratic Party. It sounds like it is, though to what degree I am still uncertain. I think a discussion about the philosophy of the site would be a good thing, thanks for your response.

Also, I would like to thank Skinner and all those responsible for creating this site. Though we may disagree on some things I appreciate a place where I can get information and voice my opinion. Thanks again.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
103. Seeing David Allen as the DLC site designer didn't answer it for you?
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:12 PM
Jun 2015

Maybe you missed that? David Allen is Skinner. I don't know his full involvement with making the DLC site (I would welcome him expanding on that so it is accurately understood, but I don't have any great need for him to do so) , but it is (was) right there in his company's portfolio.

My take on his perspective when choosing the name (Skinner please correct if this is not accurate) is that Democrats at that time, immediately after the G. W. Bush (s)election, and with virtually no voices in the mainstream media to represent their views, felt they had nowhere to turn (I know I felt that way, terrible time that was), and Skinner's intent was to form a site where Democrats could regroup while Bush had the White House. It probably sounded cool to use the "underground" term rather than something like democraticpartysupporters.com or whatever would have more accurately fit their mindset.

Anyway, it is what it is, we can choose to participate here (so long as we are allowed to) or not. Advocating for good policies and candidates who will push for them should aways be acceptable here, that's how I try to approach it.

jalan48

(13,863 posts)
107. Thanks for the clarification. I guess the name David Allen didn't ring a bell.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:35 PM
Jun 2015

I do remember what it was like after Bush stole the election and then the Iraq War, Shock and Awe, Phil Donahue etc. It does seem that many of our elected Democrats had to go along with Bush because of the media pressure. I can see where mainstream Democrats felt they had no voice though I do believe those we had elected could have said more.

I remember our underground newspaper in Seattle in the 60's, "The Helix". It served as a voice for those who opposed the Vietnam War and supported other issues like the fledging environmental and women's rights movements. Those issues were either not supported by the mainstream media or not reported upon. So, when I hear the term underground it has a more radical, progressive tinge to it than others might impute to the word. Thanks again for the information though I get the feeling the term 'underground' has different meanings for different people on this site.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
113. No problem
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:38 PM
Jun 2015

Nice chattin' with you, I can tell you are one of the good ones here, so take care and stick around. I was a child in the 60's but am very familiar with alternative or "underground" media, I think the internet has swallowed a lot of it but some of it is still around. Don't know te Helix, sorry I missed it, northern California though so probably would not have been exposed to it anyway. You are right of course about the usual meaning of the word underground.

In case you don't know any of this, or in case others are reading who don't know, here's some info:

We can't openly advocate for 3rd party candidates, and certain words and modes of dealing with others get you banned, but there seems to be room to be yourself once you learn the rules.

Ask the Administrators and Forum Rules (you already know this one, putting the link here for convenience)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12598

There are also groups (aka forums) within DU, which enjoy special protected status (not sure to what degree the protection holds, but it is helpful). Among them are Populist Reform of the Democratic Party, Socialist Progressives, Bernie Sanders, I'm no doubt forgetting others on the left side of the spectrum, so see what's out there that works for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forums

jalan48

(13,863 posts)
117. Thanks for the info.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:47 AM
Jun 2015

I enjoy the discussions in DU and look forward to more in the future. Hopefully, more Republicans will be voted out of office and replaced with Democrats, the farther left the better as far as I am concerned. There was an underground paper called the 'Berkeley Barb' in the Bay Area for many years-it was one of the first on the West Coast as I remember. It was great chatting with you too and thanks for the kind words.
JA

rbnyc

(17,045 posts)
80. You know I love you, but no.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 03:01 PM
Jun 2015

Let me qualify that a little bit. Dirty mud-slinging, that sounds bad. It's hard to come out in favor of that. Why would I? And I do support Bernie Sanders who leads by example when it comes to positive campaigning.

I have posted while angry many times, and I have used venomous language in my personal assessments of the HRC candidacy. Mostly, that was while she was alone in the field and I was terrified that she would remain alone in the field.

It is easier to stay positive with an outstanding champion to support.

At the same time, too often when I see folks here raise serious concerns about Hillary, they are reflexively labeled as haters and their concerns are just dismissed. The Democratic Party is having trouble holding onto many liberals and progressives who are deeply concerned about corruption, campaign finance, income disparity, financial regulation, entrenched power, plutocracy, etc., and just calling our concerns baseless and hateful isn't really helping.

I don't trust party leadership, and I resent many of the concessions that have been made in the name of moderation and strategy - or subscription to the third way philosophy of essentially continuing to redistribute wealth from the middle to the top while holding voters in check with somewhat progressive positions on social issues. I think party leadership needs to change. And I think it's important to talk about that.

There is a kind of civil war going on within the Democratic Party. You can try not to take a side, but I don't know if that's the most helpful plan.

I have taken a side and...

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
89. Metric users for Chafee?
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:18 PM
Jun 2015


I actually like O'Malley, thought of supporting him but in the end didn't really go anywhere.

The toughest thing for me with jumping on board with anyone is this. I have a late primary and surrounded by states with late primaries. So this whole race could be done before I even get a chance to vote. I've put alot of energy into these primaries only to be burnt out by the time the general election came around (aka 2004). So I'd rather just enjoy the primaries from the sidelines because I know the the end I'll support whomever wins it. Yeah I would kinda like to see Bernie win it because he's more progressive but I like Hillary just as much too. I really wish Joe Biden would jump in the race but I doubt that will happen. But in the end any one of the democrats I would be proud to support if they get the nomination. But getting all bent out of shape about it now is only going to burn me out in the long run. And the negativity, just not the way to go, get's me pissed to see what people are doing to each other - serves no purpose whe the real enemy is the GOP.

If people want to write me off as a sideline sitter so be it. Doesn't mean I care less, just means I'll care more when it counts the most.

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
95. My first reaction was to agree.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:43 PM
Jun 2015

But the more I think about it, the more I think the reprehensible behavior of the elite Democrats is much, much worse than a little mud slinging. That is why the Democratic Party, the US and the world are in the worst condition of my life and getting worse every day. I still agree with your point, but most of the top Democrats are Faustians worthy of our contempt.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
97. Very much agree LynneSin.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:03 PM
Jun 2015

All that negative crap isn't just disingenuous and insulting. Most of it's dumber than dirt. The excuses for it are lame as hell. When posters double down on it like 'it's just the facts' and then continue insulting the other person's candidate, it suggests a few possibilities. That the poster is paranoid, narcissistic, condescending, arrogant, dimwitted, obsessive, compulsive, naive, idealistic, could need some herbal tea or a nice walk or nap. And / or hates all democrats.

Sean23

(12 posts)
108. No negative ads and comments
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:57 PM
Jun 2015

Sanders is trying to run a no negative ad campaign and would be embarrassed to read the negative posts.

Cha

(297,196 posts)
116. It's nice of you to ask, Lynne.. but that's not going to happen. On the plus side.. it only says
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:50 PM
Jun 2015

everything about the person who's posting stupid, ignorant rw shite and nothing about the candidate.

Disagreeing and critiquing is one thing but that's not what a seeming majority here is all about..



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