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Congress is about to pass a bill they KNOW will cost American jobs. Obama is for this loss of jobs, (Original Post) grahamhgreen Jun 2015 OP
The people finally have a real choice in Bernie Sanders this time! TheNutcracker Jun 2015 #1
Not all states have closed primaries. Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #22
All of us need to check out the laws LuvNewcastle Jun 2015 #36
In California, you have to be a registered Democrat or onecaliberal Jun 2015 #102
Actually, "Decline to State" Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #106
My registration is Decline to State and has not been changed to onecaliberal Jun 2015 #108
When registering to vote, Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #110
I've been a registered Democrat my entire life until onecaliberal Jun 2015 #111
After 30 plus years as a registered Democrat Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #112
Complicated chess moves. I believe that's what it's called with a side order of kabuki.. nc4bo Jun 2015 #2
The Koch bros funded the DLC for a reason. HooptieWagon Jun 2015 #3
Yah Stryder Jun 2015 #4
And we did.... nt SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #6
We sure as hell did. hifiguy Jun 2015 #61
BULLSHIT! House DEMS(Pelosi leading them) voted down TAA AllTooEasy Jun 2015 #8
It was also argued that older workers would be affected the most. Provide training for 40+ year old nc4bo Jun 2015 #10
It isn't. TAA is a joke abelenkpe Jun 2015 #14
Your Description Punx Jun 2015 #25
I've been on the TAA. Half-Century Man Jun 2015 #19
Thanks for the explanation. LuvNewcastle Jun 2015 #37
Thank you. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #70
Might you consider making this an OP? SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #71
TAA. It was weak tea at best. Stryder Jun 2015 #72
He wants to build a legacy as the 'post partisan president' AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #5
Saddest thing is that they laugh at him, while he thinks they respect him:( grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #9
He will laugh at them as he rides down the Yellow Brick Road of post-presidential riches. hifiguy Jun 2015 #62
They may give him money, but they will never give him respect. grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #69
yep. They're such disgusting corporatist liars. kath Jun 2015 #7
Obama's early '07 campaign rhetoric included "Corporations have too much power." Look what happened. Auggie Jun 2015 #11
"Corporations have too much power." avebury Jun 2015 #88
I think I'm noticing a pattern, here. Octafish Jun 2015 #12
The plutocracy are Ferengi and live by the Ferengi rules of Acquisition. hifiguy Jun 2015 #65
Spot on. historylovr Jun 2015 #105
Sure, it will cost some jobs, but overall I believe the good outweighs the bad. DCBob Jun 2015 #13
That and a dollar will buy you a nice shiny pile of nothing.... Splatterpunk Jun 2015 #15
how do people without jobs feed their families? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #16
Jobs have been coming and going quickly for past 30 years. DCBob Jun 2015 #21
Mostly going Punx Jun 2015 #26
Living on borrowed money, that's what. azmom Jun 2015 #38
Yep BuelahWitch Jun 2015 #100
What will the people do who lose their health care benefits if TAA passes? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #45
That's irrelevant to the discussion. Renew Deal Jun 2015 #30
The jobs go with or without the TPP Recursion Jun 2015 #43
The only new job comming is dieing. PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #53
Unemployment is 5.2, discouraged workers is 0.5 Recursion Jun 2015 #54
That is complete bullshit.... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #82
Do you think BLS is just making that up? (nt) Recursion Jun 2015 #86
No way to create jobs in America? Really? No way. Jobs are leaving, get over it? Who RU voting for? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #73
Of course jobs are being created in America Recursion Jun 2015 #74
Why are they leaving? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #75
Well the robots will eventually take all of our jobs Recursion Jun 2015 #85
Or, for long term outlook, BUY things? HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #96
Asw I said in another thread edhopper Jun 2015 #17
Because they KNOW there will be jobs lost. Beyond that they are counting on wage depression. onecaliberal Jun 2015 #24
The way I understand it is TAA is coincidental. Renew Deal Jun 2015 #29
If the TPP is so good for American workers and jobs... 0rganism Jun 2015 #35
Because overall good in the long term doesn't mean good for everybody in the short term mythology Jun 2015 #42
Well it isn't like he hasn't done it before n2doc Jun 2015 #18
Obama doesn't give a shit about the American people, Unknown Beatle Jun 2015 #20
what a bizarre statement. oh rightwe are underthematrix Jun 2015 #27
phucking liars. onecaliberal Jun 2015 #23
Is there any neutral documentation on job losses? Renew Deal Jun 2015 #28
They don't. They just see Obama and assume that it's bad. Question: Do people honestly believe that Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #32
Do people honestly believe that republicans Kermitt Gribble Jun 2015 #40
Can we agree he is willing to sacrifice American jobs to pass the TPP? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #50
No. We cannot agree. I don't agree. I don't believe that he's a dumb or evil man who Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #52
See Bill Clinton. Hell, even see James Earl Carter. TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #57
Carter was misguided in falling for the deregulation gospel hifiguy Jun 2015 #67
Perhaps. And I STILL blame Clinton for the jobs mess we're in. However, I have faith in this preside Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #113
Proven wrong? Like once that his guy would come out for net neutrality TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #114
We'll see. I'm not ready to throw in the towel. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #115
I believe Elizabeth Warren in this battle, and Bernie Sanders. Both were vehemently opposed, as peacebird Jun 2015 #84
No, like most of the party he thinks this will cause a net jobs gain like NAFTA did Recursion Jun 2015 #87
They don't. They fixate on a number someone made up and ignore job gains Recursion Jun 2015 #41
We've lost 60,000 factories - FACTORIES - since the last costly trade deal. thats a lot of jobs grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #48
We've gained about 50 million net jobs since it too Recursion Jun 2015 #55
Low paying jobs.... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #81
Then why are median wages and incomes up since 1994? Recursion Jun 2015 #89
CITATIONS PLEASE truebrit71 Jun 2015 #107
FFS HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO POST THESE? Recursion Jun 2015 #109
No, it's a mere repetition treestar Jun 2015 #77
Truth. We are just slaves and cannon fodder to them. n/t PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #31
You think you're so clever and classless and free deutsey Jun 2015 #39
Had enough yet? 99Forever Jun 2015 #33
He'll be out of office. He doesn't care. Prism Jun 2015 #34
Nothing will stop the jobs going. Nothing. Recursion Jun 2015 #44
Labor has always been cheaper in some other countries, yet we kept our jobs here. Do you know how? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #46
We kept our jobs here now. Unemployment is lower than in 1993 Recursion Jun 2015 #56
but according to this chart it buys about 35-40% less questionseverything Jun 2015 #59
That is all that poster does. Rex Jun 2015 #63
Yep, corporate propaganda and cherry picking. Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #66
"Real" means inflation-adjusted Recursion Jun 2015 #68
Let's see what a progressive site says. Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #64
Citations please. truebrit71 Jun 2015 #83
Which makes it a support for our jobs treestar Jun 2015 #79
Well, then our consumer based economy is destroyed. Period. HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #97
You're pretending the service economy doesn't exist Recursion Jun 2015 #98
If you have tons of green to educate yourself for the higher-end "services", that is. HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #104
Wrong. Hillary recently said that she was not in favor of passing the fast track pnwmom Jun 2015 #47
Really? That's hopeful. She's currently against it? Link? grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #49
I don't know what she thinks now, since it got cloture (with some help from Pelosi.) This is what pnwmom Jun 2015 #51
They have no respect for honesty. The appearance of honesty is seen as a tool. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #58
The People are just easily-ignored speed bumps hifiguy Jun 2015 #60
Apparently they disagree with you treestar Jun 2015 #76
We've lost 60,000 factories since 2001. grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #80
And? Recursion Jun 2015 #90
I wonder what happened in 2001. Manufacturing jobs fell off a cliff after 2000. Only recently, pampango Jun 2015 #92
PNTR with China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNTR grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #94
Damn! PNTR! I should have known it was the fault of a Democratic and not a republican president. pampango Jun 2015 #101
Sure. Arm-chair economists trump reality every time. randome Jun 2015 #78
Why are acting as if its just us here at DU when its also our Democratic leaders saying the same? RiverLover Jun 2015 #91
Yet most Democrats are in favor of it. randome Jun 2015 #93
The majority of Dems in the House & the Senate voted against Fast Tracking trade deals RiverLover Jun 2015 #95
It's odd; both parties are kind of going against their base here Recursion Jun 2015 #99
Combined, both Dems fredamae Jun 2015 #103
 

TheNutcracker

(2,104 posts)
1. The people finally have a real choice in Bernie Sanders this time!
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:18 PM
Jun 2015

The only talking point should be that voters need to change their party to vote for Bernie in the primary if they are not registered as a democrat.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
22. Not all states have closed primaries.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:54 PM
Jun 2015

California is one of those. I think we have to be VERY VERY careful about demanding that people swear fealty to some obsolete sell-out political party before they can vote for Bernie. People need to check their own states and know whether they have open or closed primaries. Closed primaries, yes, you have to register as a Democrat to vote for him. Open primaries, nope.

LuvNewcastle

(16,844 posts)
36. All of us need to check out the laws
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:58 PM
Jun 2015

in our respective states so that we can advise others on voting in the primaries. Everyone in my state is an independent, basically, and we can vote in the primary of our choice. The only requirement is that if you vote in the Democratic primary, for instance, you can only vote in the Democratic runoff. So really, all we have to do here is make sure people are registered, which is a hard enough task in itself.

onecaliberal

(32,826 posts)
102. In California, you have to be a registered Democrat or
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:54 AM
Jun 2015

DS (decline to state) to vote for Bernie. And yes laws are different in each state. The sanders campaign is all over that already.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
106. Actually, "Decline to State"
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:12 AM
Jun 2015

was changed to "No Party Affiliation" a while back. The CDP rules say that a person can vote in the Democratic Primary if they are a registered Democrat or they are registered as NPA. This is an important point because I think Bernie has enormous crossover appeal and we need to give those people who will not register as a Democrat but will re-register as NPA a way to vote for Bernie in the California primary. Crossover voters are a critical component in Bernie winning the nomination. Thankfully, the CDP kept that avenue open.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
110. When registering to vote,
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jun 2015

under the section titled "Political Party Preference" there are two choices: register with a particular political party or the second option: "No, I do not want to disclose a political party preference." * (If you select no, you may not be able to vote for some parties' candidates at a primary election for the U.S. president or party committee.)

The Decline to State is an older designation and, to my understanding, the state can't change it just because it has undergone a name change, you would have to do that. It doesn't matter as it is effectively the same thing, i.e., you've not signed on with any established political party. When you register now and choose the second option, you are automatically placed in the NPA category.

onecaliberal

(32,826 posts)
111. I've been a registered Democrat my entire life until
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 11:08 AM
Jun 2015

6 months ago. I was an elected member of the Democratic Central Committee in my county for 4 years. I have participated in registration drives, phone banks, and driving voters to polls. Corporate money has infiltrated the party at every level. I can no longer justify any support for the party's democracy killing endeavors.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
112. After 30 plus years as a registered Democrat
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jun 2015

I switched out in 2004 after I saw what they did to Dean. I was an e-Board member for the CDP at the time. I've seen what the Big Guns can do and all the crap you see on this board now doesn't hold a candle to what they're going to throw at him. We have to be ready with millions of people ready to recruit, GOTV and put feet on the ground.

nc4bo

(17,651 posts)
2. Complicated chess moves. I believe that's what it's called with a side order of kabuki..
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:22 PM
Jun 2015

I remember my Mom being a ILGWU member and the valient effort this union did to protest NAFTA and the predictions of job loss. I remember NAFTA being a runaway freight train and it was.

http://ilgwu.ilr.cornell.edu/history/riseOfImports.html

The union was right, so was Mom.

I fear she would be right about TPP also.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
3. The Koch bros funded the DLC for a reason.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:59 PM
Jun 2015

And gullible Democratic voters elected the gang of 13. Time to clean the scum out of the Party. Start by supporting Bernie.

AllTooEasy

(1,260 posts)
8. BULLSHIT! House DEMS(Pelosi leading them) voted down TAA
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:11 PM
Jun 2015

...and killed any support for workers displaced by TPP. Obama wanted TAA, in other words NO LOSS OF JOBS.

...but House Dems, led by Pelosi, voted it down. That's a fact. It was a gross miscalculation. Did they forget that Repukes ran he Senates?!

nc4bo

(17,651 posts)
10. It was also argued that older workers would be affected the most. Provide training for 40+ year old
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:17 PM
Jun 2015

Workers to re-enter the workforce to compete with 20-somethings?

Good luck with that.

I just don't see that as being realistic.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
14. It isn't. TAA is a joke
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:39 PM
Jun 2015

When my former employer went under and much of the VFX work in Los Angeles was offshored a few years ago many workers from DD and R&H and others were notified that they qualified for TAA. It was a pittance, difficult to get and it wouldn't train them for a job that came close to providing the same sort of salary. Most just left the country to chase their jobs overseas. Or went into teaching....again for much less money. Older workers definitely had a harder time. All that experience and education. It was sad.

Punx

(446 posts)
25. Your Description
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:00 PM
Jun 2015

Exactly describes what I have seen first hand here in Oregon, especially for older workers.

Such a waste.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
19. I've been on the TAA.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jun 2015

Last edited Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I know lots of people who have completed TAA training. Got their welding certificates, diplomas in automation, nursing certificates, AAS's (I'm one), Bachelors degrees, Masters Degrees, became bondable electricians, bondable plumbers, factory certifications in the automotive, cycling, and marine trades, EMTS, Paramedics, and graphic designers. And still can't find a job.

Some of us were over forty by the time we completed training. Some of us trained for already saturated job markets. Most of us burned up what little saving we had trying to keep our families inside while we worked our asses off to finish school as fast as possible. Half or better of us took on greater student debt at the encouragement of school recruiters. More than a few of us had to drop out of school and accept a job paying a fraction of what we made on the job that immigrated to distant shores, so our families could eat. The ones who receive the greatest benefit from the TAA is the for profit higher education industry, not the displaced workers.

It doesn't matter how much training you have if the jobs are gone.

The House Democrats voted down taking money from Medicare to pay for what is a glorified stroke job in education. TAA allows TPTB to shift people who would show up on unemployment rolls to the education in progress category. When they graduate and can't find a job that they trained for, they have used up their unemployment periods; they don't show up in unemployment documents.

LuvNewcastle

(16,844 posts)
37. Thanks for the explanation.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 09:12 PM
Jun 2015

I wondered what the goal was with that bill, besides an opportunity to raid Medicare. Now I know. It's a shame how little Americans know about the machinations of this government we have. The press is useless at best, but usually they're just plain deceptive.

Stryder

(450 posts)
72. TAA. It was weak tea at best.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 10:43 PM
Jun 2015

Offer them a crumb for your loaf.
(Or the whole heard of USDA prime in this case.)

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
5. He wants to build a legacy as the 'post partisan president'
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:12 PM
Jun 2015

Thus far he has failed, despite giving away the farm to the GOP in his grand bargains for nothing in return.

Maybe THIS will get him the recognition from the GOP that he craves!! NOT... When the poor and middle class start going down the drain because of this FASCIST deal, they will blame him for that too.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
62. He will laugh at them as he rides down the Yellow Brick Road of post-presidential riches.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jun 2015

Don't think he hasn't noticed how lavishly rewarded the Clintons have been over the last 15 years. TPTB got the Telecom Act, NAFTA, and "banking reform" out of the Clintons. A couple of hundred million is a small price to pay for the trillions those gave the tenth-percenters and hundredth-percenters.

kath

(10,565 posts)
7. yep. They're such disgusting corporatist liars.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:33 PM
Jun 2015

Ain't Government of the Corporations, by the Corporations, and for the Corporations just fanfreakintastic?

avebury

(10,952 posts)
88. "Corporations have too much power."
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:41 AM
Jun 2015

And he has proved that they continue to have too much power.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
12. I think I'm noticing a pattern, here.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:24 PM
Jun 2015

The money is good.

"One of the things that is interesting about reading conspiracy theory is that much of what folks think is conspiracy is really many people acting in concert to make or protect their money." - Catherine Austin Fitts


A big shot in Poppy's crew, Fitts got fed up with the corruption at the highest levels of government, business and finance. She's doing all she can to document corruption on Wall Street and Washington and helping those who give a damn do something about it. Her Narcodollars for Beginners deserves a Pulitzer.

Integrity is an alien concept to the plutocrat. That's why they make and sign the laws they do. Ask Phil Gramm and his colleague at Swiss bank UBS, William J. Clinton.
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
65. The plutocracy are Ferengi and live by the Ferengi rules of Acquisition.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jun 2015

A sample:

Once you have their money ... never give it back.
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.
A man is only worth the sum of his possessions.
Keep your ears open.
Small print leads to large risk.
Opportunity plus instinct equals profit.
Greed is eternal.
Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.
A deal is a deal ... until a better one comes along.
A contract is a contract is a contract (but only between Ferengi).
A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all.
Satisfaction is not guaranteed.
Never place friendship above profit.
A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
Nothing is more important than your health--except for your money.
There's nothing more dangerous than an honest businessman.
Never make fun of a Ferengi's mother ... insult something he cares about instead.
It never hurts to suck up to the boss.
War is good for business.
Peace is good for business.
Profit is its own reward.

More at http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
13. Sure, it will cost some jobs, but overall I believe the good outweighs the bad.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:24 PM
Jun 2015

The main benefit I see is giving us better foothold in Asia and balancing off Chinese aggression there. Furthermore, I suspect the effect on jobs won't be near as bad as some are fearing. Technology is already dramatically changing the jobs landscape regardless of what TPP does or doesn't do. That is biggest factor we need to deal with... imo.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
21. Jobs have been coming and going quickly for past 30 years.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:51 PM
Jun 2015

What did people do then? This is no different. I do think TAA will help. That needs to pass.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
43. The jobs go with or without the TPP
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:14 PM
Jun 2015

The TPP keeps them out of China and India

I don't get why people have such a hard time with this concept. The jobs are going away, period, and new jobs are coming. Just like has happened for the past 20 years.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
53. The only new job comming is dieing.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 05:42 AM
Jun 2015

There are no new jobs. Trust me, I have been looking for several years. It is already very bad. How much worse does it get before a mass uprising and anarchy? I do not know, but I do feel it is close at hand now.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
54. Unemployment is 5.2, discouraged workers is 0.5
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:28 AM
Jun 2015

I'm sorry for what you're going through but very few Americans share that experience .

 

grahamhgreen

(15,741 posts)
73. No way to create jobs in America? Really? No way. Jobs are leaving, get over it? Who RU voting for?
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 10:44 PM
Jun 2015

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
74. Of course jobs are being created in America
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 02:55 AM
Jun 2015

What a silly thing to ask.

Consumer manufacturing jobs, however, aren't coming back, and the ones we still have will for the most part be leaving

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
85. Well the robots will eventually take all of our jobs
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:34 AM
Jun 2015

Right now light manufacturing is just so much more expensive here that nobody wants to run what's essentially a charity to employ Americans doing it, particularly given our low unemployment rate.

But, robots and all, it will surprise me if more than 25% of Americans have what we would today call a "job" in 20 years.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
96. Or, for long term outlook, BUY things?
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:29 AM
Jun 2015

The Creative Destruction parrots seem to have no answer for that.

edhopper

(33,570 posts)
17. Asw I said in another thread
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:47 PM
Jun 2015

If the TPP is so good for American workers and jobs, why do they need a bill to help those displaced by it?
Sounds like the TPP guarantees job loss.

onecaliberal

(32,826 posts)
24. Because they KNOW there will be jobs lost. Beyond that they are counting on wage depression.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:56 PM
Jun 2015

Who here with half a brain thinks we can compete with wages of countries paying 3 bucks a day.

Renew Deal

(81,855 posts)
29. The way I understand it is TAA is coincidental.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:37 PM
Jun 2015

It's a relic that was latched on to entice Democrats.

0rganism

(23,944 posts)
35. If the TPP is so good for American workers and jobs...
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:46 PM
Jun 2015

... why are its contents a closely guarded secret?

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
42. Because overall good in the long term doesn't mean good for everybody in the short term
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:09 PM
Jun 2015

The invention of the computer put a lot of people out of work initially, but overall has been an incredible boon to humanity.

The ability to grow food via agriculture meant we could stop following food, settle down and eventually start to create things like pottery, metalworks and textiles. Fairly important to the development of human society, but probably not great for the guy who was chief hunter.

Or to put it another way, I recently had a major knee surgery that was technically elective. It has made my life suck for the last 6 months and will continue to make my life suck for another year or so before my recovery officially finishes. But in theory, I will have a better functioning knee after that. I took a short term significant loss to realize a long term gain that should prove more significant. That doesn't make me feel a lot better when I watch my friends get to do things I'm physically banned from doing, but eventually that will change and I'll be back doing the things I want. The TAA, in theory, is like the PT rehab work I have to do. It sucks, it has some significant challenges, but on average is better than not doing it.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
18. Well it isn't like he hasn't done it before
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:47 PM
Jun 2015

The Korean trade pact cost tens of thousands of jobs.
http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3595

He's Just like Bill Clinton.

He has joined the class of folks who don't care very much about the losers in the great economic game. He's a winner!

Unknown Beatle

(2,672 posts)
20. Obama doesn't give a shit about the American people,
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jun 2015

he's set for life. He and Dimon are going to be playing gulf in the near future laughing about what suckers we were to believe that Obama was for us peons.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
32. They don't. They just see Obama and assume that it's bad. Question: Do people honestly believe that
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:40 PM
Jun 2015

Obama doesn't care about Americans losing jobs? Please be honest.

I don't think so. I simply do not believe that he is an evil man. I think he knows more about policy than many of us who haven't even read the policy. They just hear 'free trade' and automatically assume that it is bad.

Kermitt Gribble

(1,855 posts)
40. Do people honestly believe that republicans
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:52 PM
Jun 2015

care about Americans losing jobs? Because Obama is on the republicans side in this fight.

Sorry, I'll stand with Labor, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. You can stand with Obama, Boehner, McConnell and Paul Ryan.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
52. No. We cannot agree. I don't agree. I don't believe that he's a dumb or evil man who
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 05:32 AM
Jun 2015

doesn't care about people. There is nothing in his record, nor evidence of anything he's ever done in his life that proves that. Not for me.

So, no. We don't agree.

And why would he want that legacy? Doesn't make sense to me. Why would he want to be known as a president who deliberately did things to hurt American people?

AND...at the very least, let's assume that politics matters to him. Why would he hurt the chances for the Democratic nominee by deliberately doing something that could hurt that person? Doesn't make sense.

Sorry. I don't believe that.

I'm going to wait and see what happens.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
57. See Bill Clinton. Hell, even see James Earl Carter.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 08:26 AM
Jun 2015

Maybe decent and even very good people just believe wrong headed bullshit that is disastrous.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
67. Carter was misguided in falling for the deregulation gospel
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:34 PM
Jun 2015

and in his chilliness to unions.

Clinton knew EXACTLY what he was doing and what the results would be with NAFTA, the Telecom Act and banking reform. He regrets nothing and is proud of all of it. He just didn't give a shit.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
113. Perhaps. And I STILL blame Clinton for the jobs mess we're in. However, I have faith in this preside
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 06:12 PM
Jun 2015

Why? How many times have we been proven wrong? (i.e., "Obamacare&quot

I'm going to take my chances with this president's decision. I think he's a brilliant man and I DO NOT at all believe--and will NEVER believe--that he would deliberately do anything to harm the American worker.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
114. Proven wrong? Like once that his guy would come out for net neutrality
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:29 PM
Jun 2015

Being wrong is not always or perhaps even usually about malice but that doesn't make it cool or somehow any more acceptable.

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
84. I believe Elizabeth Warren in this battle, and Bernie Sanders. Both were vehemently opposed, as
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:20 AM
Jun 2015

were unions.
Sorry, all the R's love it. I have seen the effects of H1B, most favored nation for China and Nafta. Good solid middle class jobs lost, low paying service sector jobs - usually part time - increased.

I believe Obama thinks this will have more benefits than costs, but I don't think he is correct. As stated, I trust Elizabeth Warren over Obama on this.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
87. No, like most of the party he thinks this will cause a net jobs gain like NAFTA did
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:41 AM
Jun 2015

You disagree; I get that. But it's not that difficult to take his own words about why he's doing it at face value.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
41. They don't. They fixate on a number someone made up and ignore job gains
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:07 PM
Jun 2015

At this point a large portion of DU have managed to convince themselves that the late 1990s were a bad time for American workers.

This will continue to be the rallying cry until the next shiny appears.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
55. We've gained about 50 million net jobs since it too
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:32 AM
Jun 2015

That's why a higher percentage of working age ericans have jobs today than in 1993.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
89. Then why are median wages and incomes up since 1994?
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:42 AM
Jun 2015

Could someone please at least address that rather than pretending it didn't happen?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
109. FFS HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO POST THESE?
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:35 AM
Jun 2015

Also please make sure you know the meaning of "real", "inflation-adjusted", and "median" before responding (just speaking from painful DU experience there).

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm

http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php

http://www.russellsage.org/sites/all/files/chartbook/Income%2520and%2520Earnings.pdf

Better yet just go to BLS and search for the numbers you are interested in. That's what we pay them for.

The slowness of real wage and income growth is a problem, but pretending it hasn't happened is silly. It even happened faster in the 20 years after NAFTA than the 20 years before it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
77. No, it's a mere repetition
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:52 AM
Jun 2015

as if that will make it true. There are people who are using this as a wedge issue. It's part of that campaign, along with the loss of national sovereignty and other such statements. Nobody has to prove anything. Simply state it and act shocked if questioned.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
39. You think you're so clever and classless and free
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:16 PM
Jun 2015

but you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see.

John Lennon

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
33. Had enough yet?
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:41 PM
Jun 2015

This is your Democratic Party under the control of neoliberals. Make no mistake, this Kabuki Theater was no accident. We have been had, by those who swore to defend us. This is a coordinated attack on our democracy.

Sharpen your pitchforks and fire up your torches.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
34. He'll be out of office. He doesn't care.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:44 PM
Jun 2015

And all the corporations that are for this will be paying him $250,000 a pop for the rest of his life to come give speeches about nothing.

Legacy, yo.

We will also be instructed by interested by partisans to think nothing at all about the fortune the President will accrue. They really will be asking for his advice about hedge funds and global marketing strategies because of his personal expertise in those fields.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
44. Nothing will stop the jobs going. Nothing.
Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:18 PM
Jun 2015

You can stamp your feet all you want, but I'm just right about this. Cheaper global labor (and even more, technology) will take the jobs. Period. And new jobs will keep coming. The TPP decides whether they go to Vietnam and Malaysia, with some rules, or China, Bangadesh, and India, with no rules.

 

grahamhgreen

(15,741 posts)
46. Labor has always been cheaper in some other countries, yet we kept our jobs here. Do you know how?
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:29 AM
Jun 2015

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
56. We kept our jobs here now. Unemployment is lower than in 1993
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:35 AM
Jun 2015

NAFTA promised higher American employment and wages, and delivered. The unemployment rate is lower than 1993. The discouraged worker rate is lower than 1993. The median hourly wage is higher than in 1993. The median household income is higher than in 1993. Income and wages at each quintile grew more in the 20 years after NAFTA than the 20 years before it. Ross Perot was wrong, and Bill Clinton was right.

Elwood P Dowd

(11,443 posts)
66. Yep, corporate propaganda and cherry picking.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:32 PM
Jun 2015

Posts the exact same talking points put out by various corporate front groups.

Elwood P Dowd

(11,443 posts)
64. Let's see what a progressive site says.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:28 PM
Jun 2015
http://www.epi.org/publication/nafta-legacy-growing-us-trade-deficits-cost-682900-jobs/

NAFTA’s Legacy Growing U.S. Trade Deficits Cost 682,900 Jobs
By Robert E. Scott | December 17, 2013

Former President Bill Clinton claimed that NAFTA would create an “export boom to Mexico” that would create 200,000 jobs in two years and a million jobs in five years, “many more jobs than will be lost” due to rising imports.  The economic logic behind his argument was clear:  Trade creates new jobs in exporting industries and destroys jobs when imports replace the output of domestic firms.   Fast forward 20 years and it’s clear that things didn’t work out as Clinton promised.  NAFTA led to a flood of outsourcing and foreign direct investment in Mexico.  U.S. imports from Mexico grew much more rapidly than exports, leading to growing trade deficits, as shown in the Figure.  Jobs making cars, electronics, and apparel  and other goods moved to Mexico, and job losses piled up in the United States, especially in the Midwest where those products used to be made.  By 2010, trade deficits with Mexico had eliminated 682,900 good U.S. jobs, most (60.8 percent) in manufacturing.

Claims by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that NAFTA “trade” has created millions of jobs are based on disingenuous accounting, which counts only jobs gained by exports but ignores jobs lost due to growing imports.  The U.S. economy has grown in the past 20 years despite NAFTA, not because of it.  Worse yet, production workers’ wages have suffered in the United States.  Likewise, workers in Mexico have not seen wage growth.  Job losses and wage stagnation are NAFTA’s real legacy.

.948

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
83. Citations please.
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:06 AM
Jun 2015

We've seen your cherry-picked bullshit before.... not falling for it a second time...

treestar

(82,383 posts)
79. Which makes it a support for our jobs
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:54 AM
Jun 2015

yeah, using this as a wedge issue has not worked out so well. The wedgers simply won't face reality. We cannot keep the US the richest country on earth by retreating from the reality of just how many people there are in China and India, etc.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
97. Well, then our consumer based economy is destroyed. Period.
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:43 AM
Jun 2015

I know you're not in the business of telling people what they want to hear, so let me reciprocate:

There is no "next big thing". There is no "killer app". Corporate greed runs rampant. America's gerrymandered Congress is controlled by Republicans who would rather die than give one atom speck of fairness to the impoverished. This is never going to get any better if something is not done NOW.

If we earned what the average worker in the third world made, we'd be living in tents under bridges and would have to fend for ourselves and live in mud huts and eat bugs. We still have to pay American prices on necessities and consumables however low our wage is. Of course, to someone who frequently employs the Fallacy of Relative Privation such as yourself, that might not be that bad watching Americans get their "Just Desserts", right?

An economy that depends on millions upon millions of people to consume, combined with an infinite supply of labor, resources and wealth in a world where none of that exists is going to FAIL long term unless there are equal-paying jobs to replace the ones destroyed. In the past 20 years, as it is now, that has NOT happened and I'm not optimistic corporate America is going to change their ways.

If there is no viable job market to accommodate the millions of un/underemployed Americans, then all the mortgaged education in the world isn't going to amount to a hill of trash. Past performance does not guarantee future results. All you're going to have is the greatest educated shelf stockers on Earth
.

But hey, you got yours, right? So who cares?

Hope they sell some freon for your bloodstream in the future. You'll need it as the world burns.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
98. You're pretending the service economy doesn't exist
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:45 AM
Jun 2015

I'm not sure why; it's two thirds or more of every advanced economy and works very well.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
104. If you have tons of green to educate yourself for the higher-end "services", that is.
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:57 AM
Jun 2015

Hard telling how that's going to happen when you're un/underemployed.

Go into business for yourself, and you now have a haphazard crapshoot that can succeed OR fail. And just try to get a second chance in 2015 when you do fail.

Then there's the giant retail/entertainment/restaurant world . . . . because THAT'S going to logically replace the 1980s manufacturing wage.

I haven't even scratched the surface on the limited benefits these "jobs" have to offer as opposed to the manufacturing/auto/industrial jobs our parents worked at used to.

This isn't Germany we live in, kid.

http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2010/051610.html

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
47. Wrong. Hillary recently said that she was not in favor of passing the fast track
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:32 AM
Jun 2015

because the jobs bill wasn't passed.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
58. They have no respect for honesty. The appearance of honesty is seen as a tool.
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:27 AM
Jun 2015

We have watched it over and over again.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
60. The People are just easily-ignored speed bumps
Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:16 PM
Jun 2015

on the Corporate Highway they are well-paid to travel. Minor, temporary inconveniences. They serve their masters well. It is what the are paid to do.

SANDERS '16!

treestar

(82,383 posts)
76. Apparently they disagree with you
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:51 AM
Jun 2015

I've heard about this loss of jobs over and over but still just repeating it over and over does not make it real.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
90. And?
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:44 AM
Jun 2015

Why do you care about factories? Most Americans don't work in one. It's a niche employment sector, like video game design. And the factories we do have employ about 10% of the people they used to because of automation.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
92. I wonder what happened in 2001. Manufacturing jobs fell off a cliff after 2000. Only recently,
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:04 AM
Jun 2015

starting in 2011, have they begun to recover and grow.

For 14+ years before 1994 manufacturing employment and wages declined. From 1994 to 2000 manufacturing jobs and wages increased. Then after 2001 jobs and wages in manufacturing resumed their pre-1994 plunge.

I see a partisan pattern there, though others say that Democrats are lucky and republicans are unlucky when it comes to the performance of the economy.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
101. Damn! PNTR! I should have known it was the fault of a Democratic and not a republican president.
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:52 AM
Jun 2015

How did I miss that! Democrats are always signing international agreements and allowing other countries into international organizations. Herbert Hoover would not be happy though FDR might think they are unsurprising developments.

The economy might do much better under Democrats with more jobs and higher wages but the poor republicans just inherit the 'mess' that Democrats leave them and then get blamed for our economic problems that are really the fault of Democrats. Poor GWB inherited NAFTA and PNTR. What was he supposed to do?

You are right though. The growth of the Chinese economy affected our economy just like the recovery of the European and Japanese economies affected us in the decades after WWII. It would be nice, I suppose, if the US were an island that was never affected by economic, political or military events in other parts of the world. Or if the rest of the world did not recover from the devastation of war or the chaos caused by a dictator, so that we could be the undisputed powerhouse and rule-setter for the rest of the world forever.

But, alas, that is not going to happen. We are part of the world just like Germany, Sweden and Canada are. Eventually we will learn to act like it and stop seeing ourselves as 'exceptional' and entitled to set the world's economic, military and political rules to our maximum advantage.

Without PNTR and China joining the WTO, China would still be an economic backwater like it was under Mao? Keeping the largest country in the world out of the organization that sets and enforces international trading rules seems a bit America-centric. China signed FDR's ITO agreement and would have been a member if congress had not shot the whole thing down.

Russia's economy survived for many years before it joined the WTO in 2012. I suspect that keeping China out of the WTO by denying it PNTR would not have affected China's economic growth any more than it affected Russia's.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
78. Sure. Arm-chair economists trump reality every time.
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:52 AM
Jun 2015

And traffic lights are deliberately timed to make our lives miserable, too.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

RiverLover

(7,830 posts)
91. Why are acting as if its just us here at DU when its also our Democratic leaders saying the same?
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:57 AM
Jun 2015

Are you going to say they don't know what they're talking about?

Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio):

“This is a day of celebration in the corporate suites to be sure, because they have another corporate-sponsored trade agreement that will mean more money in some investors’ pockets, that will mean more plant closings in Ohio and Arizona and Delaware and Rhode Island and West Virginia and Maine and all over this country.

"How shameful," Brown said. "We’re making this decision knowing that people will lose their jobs because of our action."


Sen Sheldon Whitehouse(D-RI):
"I’m disappointed that my colleagues voted to prohibit Congress from improving future trade agreements. Past trade pacts have hurt Rhode Island workers, and I believe we need a new trade policy that puts jobs, our environment, and worker safety ahead of the interests of international corporations.’’


Sen Al Franken(D-MN):
“I believe the fast track authority legislation advanced in the Senate today falls far short of ensuring that trade agreements will truly benefit Minnesota workers, communities, and businesses,” Franken said in a statement after the vote. “At home, we’ve seen what happens when we don’t have — and just as importantly, can’t — enforce strong trade protections: countries like China unfairly dump their goods into our country, and as a result, 1,000 Minnesotan jobs are on the chopping block.”


Sen Harry Reid(D-NV):
"Every day in this chamber, we make a choice about whether we will serve large business interests or America's middle class. Today, I believe we made the wrong choice."

Asked by a reporter Tuesday what was next for the trade package, Reid said: "I am the wrong person to talk to. I hate the whole program. So, talk to somebody that likes it. I hate it."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026892404

Are you saying they're armchair economists? Or are they people who actually care about keeping & creating jobs for Americans?
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
93. Yet most Democrats are in favor of it.
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:08 AM
Jun 2015

They aren't economists yet they bring up important points that need to be listened to. I have no problem whatsoever with adding greater protections to the TPP.

What I object to is the assumption that Obama is doing this simply because he hates us all or because he loves him some corporations.

Based on his previous actions, that kind of illogical viewpoint will never sway a debate, will never add to the discourse. It's ugly and unreflective of reality.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

RiverLover

(7,830 posts)
95. The majority of Dems in the House & the Senate voted against Fast Tracking trade deals
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:19 AM
Jun 2015

because its Un-Democratic. (opposing democratic principle)

Most Democrats are for FAIR trade. Not these bad trade deals for corporations' profits & lower wages for people.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
99. It's odd; both parties are kind of going against their base here
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:46 AM
Jun 2015

Democratic voters when polled marginally support the TPP and Republicans pretty solidly oppose it. Their representatives are listening to small vocal sections of their party on this.

fredamae

(4,458 posts)
103. Combined, both Dems
Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:57 AM
Jun 2015

and GOP make a totally Conservative Rule as the country says NO Way in Hell and takes a LEFT Turn.

It is My opinion....that we have Unknowingly (blind trust)elected the Best Republican POTUS' and RW Congress since Eisenhower...Except - I really can't see GOP Eisenhower and "old school" GOP being FOR NAFTA/CAFTA/TPP/TPA/TAA/TISA/TITP, Repealing Glass-Steagall, 1996 Telecommunications Act, Welfare Reform that hurt Millions, DADT and more.

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