Did any members who were White feel weird going to work the next day

[theycallmetrinity]

after the murders ? In our break rooms every front page paper head line
had something saying Racist killer , Hate of Blacks , Racism of white killer .

If at you place of employment you work with a lot of Blacks

[arcane1]

1. I work with people of many races, and I didn't feel any different.

[Spatened]

2. Why?

[theycallmetrinity]

4. I felt kind of ashamed

Maybe not ashamed but it was a weird feeling

[randys1]

5. Shame is good, now if we can get those who deserve the shame to feel it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

11. "now if we can get those who deserve the shame to feel it."

Sadly, it is because they chose not to feel shame over their actions that they committed their crimes in the first place. We cannot stop them, they are inevitable because they choose to be. We can only be prepared for them. Anything else would be wishful thinking.

[Igel]

32. I didn't feel ashamed.

But I had the perception that I was expected to feel ashamed and that I'd be judged on whether I expressed the right attitude on behalf of my race.

I considered this to be an aspect of standards of collective/communalist Southern group honor applied to a group which culturally rejected this back in the 1800s--Northern middle-class whites--and was culturally inappropriate and offensive.

It was the attitude shown to me by an employer who was quite racist. He'd held the job open for a month after I applied, hoping, he told me, that a Chinese would apply so he could hire him. Because whites are "all lazy and stupid." I worked out, he said, and was one of the "good whites." Such "credit to my race" thinking left me amused. Then again, he was also defensive about his race--there was a group honor, and therefore other races also had group honor. Honor was to be defended against insult, and to accept praise. It was a moment of cultural awkwardness as he waited for me to give negative face when confronted with a compliment. I saw no reason to thank him on behalf of my race. I don't do "face" when in North America. It's just a complicated system of negotiating the shoals of public honor.

Similarly, I felt no reason to be guilty or ashamed on behalf of my race over Roof or to accept anybody else's race-based communal judgment.

If I'm going to be all communalistic and view myself as primarily part of a group, it's much more likely to be "American" instead of white, straight, middle-aged, overweight, educated, male, Irish-American. (Apart from "overweight" it's the only one I have any control over, and my control over my weight, it would seem, is minimal. I think it's foolish to take imposed categories to be what I choose to define myself in terms of, and I see no reason to deny my own personhood by letting others define me for me. Please note that I think that the idea of public honor belongs to the Middle Ages and that Xianity and the Enlightenment's tag-team against it was a Very Good Thing, and it is discouraging that it needed *both* secular forces to make much headway against such a corrupting idea. This tag-team largely missed the South in the 1800s, sadly, and that gap is, IMHO, responsible for a host of evils these days because the South spewed that bit of cultural atavism back out over the rest of the country.)

But even then, my attitude about Roof is less "I need to genuflect and apologize" as "let justice speak as to what community values are--he'll get the death sentence, even as others protest his being killed." The boundary I ran into late last week was put up by others; I choose to simply ignore it and follow my inner Aspie.

[randys1]

3. You should feel weird and embarrassed regardless of SC. If you are white. In America

And then do something about it so you dont have to anymore.

I am trying to do something about it, but I am not getting very far surrounded by white people who dont see the problem.

[theycallmetrinity]

6. So you know what I mean

It wasn't just me

[randys1]

14. Are you kidding, every time I drive by an AfAm I want to get out and hand him or her $100 bill

out of guilt.

It is not enough to have the guilt, though.

[oberliner]

29. You should start doing that

I bet it would make you very popular!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

13. Exactly!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. I don't feel weird or embarrassed to be white.

The only thing I can do is govern myself and I choose to do so.

I am trying to do something about it, but I am not getting very far surrounded by white people who dont see the problem.

Everybody sucks but you.

[NaturalHigh]

36. Why should I feel weird or embarrassed?

Why should I be ashamed?

[null_bock]

7. No...

[NaturalHigh]

8. Nope.

I didn't do anything to deserve to feel ashamed.

[alphafemale]

9. Not at all. And I live about an hour from there

I have co-workers who counted loved ones among the victims.

And found out today that a co-worker went to HS with Dylann Roof.

Three years ahead of him, but she was in the same class as his sister and knows most of his family.

[oneshooter]

10. Jury Results

On Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:16 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Did any members who were White feel weird going to work the next day
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026890550

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster has been here 2 days. This is flame-bait, not meant to further discourse. Seems to be parroting the "black people can be racist, too" right-wing meme. Poster's journal seems to show only OP's are made about race, only signed up after the Charleston massacre http://www.democraticunderground.com/~theycallmetrinity.

Please hide to alert MIRT about this obvious troll. Thanks.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:22 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Kind of a dumb question, but framed respectfully. Does not rise to the level of a hide. Memo bis punitor delicatum.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is time for the conversations to begin and genuine feelings need to be explored. Was this poster's feelings normal? What generated them? Does the poster understand the impact of what happened in South Carolina? Does the poster understand what Black people feel like many days when they walk into corporate workrooms?
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: racist crap
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A simple question, can't you answer it? Or do you need a jury to hide it from you.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Racist flame-bait!
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Reading too much into the post.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

12. Since the jury decided to allow the racism to stand, let's hear the truth, White DUers...

The OP posed this question to you.

Will you be honest and brave and answer this question?

-------------

On Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:16 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Did any members who were White feel weird going to work the next day
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026890550

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster has been here 2 days. This is flame-bait, not meant to further discourse. Seems to be parroting the "black people can be racist, too" right-wing meme. Poster's journal seems to show only OP's are made about race, only signed up after the Charleston massacre http://www.democraticunderground.com/~theycallmetrinity.

Please hide to alert MIRT about this obvious troll. Thanks.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:22 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Kind of a dumb question, but framed respectfully. Does not rise to the level of a hide. Memo bis punitor delicatum.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is time for the conversations to begin and genuine feelings need to be explored. Was this poster's feelings normal? What generated them? Does the poster understand the impact of what happened in South Carolina? Does the poster understand what Black people feel like many days when they walk into corporate workrooms?
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: racist crap
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A simple question, can't you answer it? Or do you need a jury to hide it from you.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Racist flame-bait!
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Reading too much into the post.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[randys1]

16. I am so glad so many whites have no problems or feelings about it, must be nice

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

19. But is it because they don't care or that it doesn't bother them at all? I'm curious.

[randys1]

20. They dont feel they are guilty of anything, including racism or white privilege, I guess.

Must be nice

Until the so called non racist whites get it, we will have a ways to go

[demmiblue]

17. Give me a break.

Also, you need to look into remedial English classes.

[IVoteDFL]

18. Not at all

I do indeed work with a lot of minorities. Most of them are Hispanic, but there are certainly black people too. They are my colleagues and friends, I talk to them every single day. It would be weird to feel weird.

[Ruby the Liberal]

23. Welcome to DU.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. No

But I live in the liberal northeast. Conversations I overheard last week were more inline with people distancing themselves from "racist rednecks". YMMV.

[Prism]

26. Ah, you're more succinct!

That was the gist of my experience/reaction. "Racist rednecks aren't us!"

[Prism]

24. White people have "Others" within their own race that distances us from collective responsibility

This is a bit of white privilege, but within white people in America, we manage to otherize even each other. So, it's very easy to look at the racist murderer (I refuse to use his name and increase his notoriety) and think, "Well, I'm not a racist southern redneck. I feel no responsibility." If I were a southern person who was all about the confederate flag and heritage and all the baggage involved, then I would probably feel shame.

The racist murderer isn't part of "my group", so I don't feel any particular responsibility for him. (My kin are racist ignorants produced from the White Flight era of post-war Chicago. When they do something stupid, then I'd probably feel guilt. Like the Klan in Skokie. Those people I feel ashamed about because they're somehow part of the collective I was raised in).

Now granted, this is part of the psychological wiring humans use to separate ourselves from everyone else. It does not mean I'm not intellectually aware that we, each of us as white people, have a collective responsibility in America as a whole to combat racism and the institutional constructs that perpetuate it.

I'm merely speaking about the initial emotional reaction to the massacre. I didn't personally feel connected to the murderer because I do not emotionally perceive him as part of my "group".

As far as next day. A friend of mine who is black had his birthday party the next evening. He had a lot of friends and cousins there, so I heard quite a bit about how they felt and what they thought. All I could feel was empathy. I did a lot of silent nodding and listening. It's all we can do when something like this is first sinking in. And once we've collected our thoughts and ourselves, we go right back out there and fight.

[prayin4rain]

25. I felt sick that a coward racist had murdered 9 exceedingly wonderful people

simply because they had darker skin than him. I can't imagine having to be aware that certain hateful, ignorant, cowards would want me harmed due to melanin levels. The next day I felt disgusted that some of the best this country has to offer were killed by some of the worst.

[demmiblue]

27. Here is the OP's other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026890259

It amazes me how some on juries can be so tone deaf.

[Igel]

35. Different scales.

Not all scales have 8 notes, minor and major tonalities, and are equally tempered.

Mean-tone sounded out of tune to me, some modes still sound a bit sideways, and parallel 4th and 5ths ... I need to prepare myself for them. And don't even get me started on twelve-tone aleatoric stuff. Still, I've managed to cultivate an appreciation for a variety of tonalities and even like some of the possibilities--an easy example is that some instruments can have slightly raised thirds and sevenths (or flattened thirds and sevenths) for purer or dirtier harmonies.

Took a while to get past my narrowly tuned ears to even spot that other systems were, indeed, systems, much less to figure out what they were and how they could be mixed or when they really couldn't be mixed.

So just don't try to flatten or sharp your 3rds when your melodic line is doubled by a piano and you're playing slowly. It sounds wretched.

[etherealtruth]

28. No, not weird

Sick to my stomach ... yes

[kelly1mm]

30. Nope. Don't believe in collective guilt/responsibility for any non-voluntary grouping,

meaning racial, ethnic, gender, sexuality etc. groupings. Voluntary groupings such as religion, political party or what NFL team you like etc. are however things to feel guilty/responsibility for if you are voluntarily part of that group

[Travis_0004]

31. No.

Why should I be?

Should somebody who is islamic be ashamed that the boston marathon bomber was also Islamic?

Should African Americans be ashamed of crimes committed by other African Americans.

I'll take responsibility for my own actions, but not the actions of others.

[linuxman]

33. No. I felt sympathy for how some of my black-coworkers might feel.

Oddly enough, I wasn't overcome by guilt for something I had nothing to do with. Shocking. It's almost as if the whole thing wasn't about me...

Weird.

Collective guilt is for collective groups. I don't know of many of those.

[aikoaiko]

34. I just felt very sad.

[akbacchus_BC]

37. I really do not understand what you are asking!

Are you asking if Blacks would attack you even though you are not living in the same community? Am confused!

[OldEurope]

38. In German we have a word for that.

Fremdschämen, to be ashamed for an other person's guilt.

It is an issue of empathy, I think. You feel that the other person should be ashamed of what they did or said. Or you feel that you would feel shame if you had done a thing like this.
And may be you also feel a bit of what we in Germany feel all the time: Though we were born many years after the end of Hitler we still are responsible - at least responsable for keeping the memories alive and educating every new generation about it.
Maybe every new generation of white Americans should be taught about racism in the same way.