General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums$2 Billion Dollar "Blunder" or $2 Billion Dollar Robbery ?
How do we know?
Who got the $2 billion dollars? Who lost the $2 billion dollars?
Something really smells about this whole mess with Jamie Dimon? I think he is attempting to pull a quick one on somebody?
I suppose we will know more when we see more details?
spinbaby
(15,088 posts)Who wound up with the 2 billion?
kentuck
(111,052 posts)It would be a clever way to pay golden parachutes, no doubt about it.
Lucky Luciano
(11,248 posts)They will probably want to de-risk so they can collect their brilliant locked in bonuses come year end (the CPs of course).
russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)bluerum
(6,109 posts)PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)but it looks like that's a lie. Amy Goodman had Bill Black on Democracy Now this morning and she asked him to explain what happened. Here's a transcript of how he explained it.
WILLIAM BLACK: Well, I can try. One of the things about this kind of derivatives is that its extremely opaque, and we only have JPMorgans side of the story at this point, without any real investigation, and JPMorgans story doesnt make a whole lot of sense. But heres what the story that theyre telling is. They had about $15 billion in distressed European debt. As your, you know, listeners and viewers know, Europe has been in just a ton of trouble. And so, those investments were losing all kinds of value. Now, the story, which, again, doesnt make a whole lot of sense, is that they decided to hedge this position. A hedge is something where you invest in a second asset that is supposed to offset losses that you suffer in the first asset. In this case, the first asset was that distressed European debt, and the second asset, the supposed hedge, was a derivative of a derivative. In this case, it was an index of credit default swaps, which are a form of derivative that blew up AIG. Now then, the story gets even murkier, but itthe claim from out of JPMorgan is nobody was looking very carefully at the supposed hedge, and the hedge didnt perform to offset losses, instead it increased the losses and increased the losses dramatically. And supposedly, no one was looking, and no one adjusted for this. And they woke up, and they had a $2 billion loss. So thats the story from JPMorgan, as I said, that doesnt make sense, and I can explain that, if you wish.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain.
WILLIAM BLACK: OK, so first, if you have distressed European debt, youre supposed to have already reserved against the losses in it. So, why hedge the position at all? Just sell it. Get rid of these incredibly risky assets before they can suffer any additional losses. If youve already got loss reserves, you dont even have to recognize a loss, because youve already reserved for it. So, you shouldnt have had to hedge, period.
Second, if you were going to hedge, he should have hedged. And the way you would hedge something like this is to buy a credit default swap protection against the bad assets. That would hedge. In other words, if you lost on the value of the European debt, the credit default swap would go up in value, and you would be protected against loss. Instead, they have allegedly bet in the opposite direction by buying this derivative of a derivative. If the European debt lost value, the derivative of the derivative was also likely to lose value. Well, thats not a hedge. Thats a double speculation in the same direction. Youre doubling down on the bet.
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/15/crony_capitalism_after_lobbying_against_new#transcript
onethatcares
(16,161 posts)heads they win, tails they win, and we all lose.
if one was to use a chase bank check to attempt this same shit on a much smaller level, like
using it to buy crack but having the crack turn out to be fake and the check bouncing, would one
be able to get a pat on the back and a golden parachute or would one be in the hoosegow?
the world economy seems to be based on smoke and mirrors.
PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)except the bankers get to keep ALL of the winnings but share none of the losses.
Lucky Luciano
(11,248 posts)"So, why hedge the position at all? Just sell it. Get rid of these incredibly risky assets before they can suffer any additional losses."
The whole street knew about the whale taking down so much. No way they can just simply sell. The second they would attemp to get out of their positions, the whole inter-broker-dealer market would fade all their bids wayyyyy lower to pick the motherfucker off. They would know they got him by the balls and exploit it to the max. Executing the close of the positions could cost several hundred million - which is why Dimon doesn't want to discuss the positions...it is also the reason hedge funds are so secretive - to prevent others from front running their trades.
If they accidentally sold CDS when they should have bought...well then...LOL! Wish I could have had the privilege to trade with them!!! LOL!
spanone
(135,789 posts)kentuck
(111,052 posts)Because someone will pass the word to the White House that someone at JP Morgan would like to donate a $100 million dollars to their campaign, if they call off the dogs...
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Of course it might still be robbery if the London employees of JPM were in cahoots with the hedge funds.
Lucky Luciano
(11,248 posts)kentuck
(111,052 posts)What would keep them from taking money out of 401K's and pensions, etc and then give themselves like a $32 million dollar bonus, as JP Morgan just did with one of the people they "let go"...
If no one is watching, how do we know they lost it in a hedge fund or if they simply put it in their pockets and wrote it off the books, at the expense of your 401K??