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Laxman

(2,419 posts)
Fri Jun 26, 2015, 02:31 PM Jun 2015

The Four Dissenters.....

Last edited Sat Jun 27, 2015, 06:45 PM - Edit history (2)

to today's opinion on same sex marriage should be ashamed of themselves. They should be embarrassed (and I believe that history will no doubt harshly judge them) by the inflammatory rhetoric of their individual dissenting opinions in a quest to justify bigotry and unequal treatment to law-abiding American citizens based merely upon who they are. In the tradition of Dred Scott v. Sandford and Plessey v. Ferguson they seek to legally rationalize a concept that is fundamentally wrong-especially when viewed in light of some of the most basic principals of constitutional law to which these four justices regularly proclaim their allegiance.

You see when all is said and done, this is a very simple case. The cloud of emotion, bigotry and religious belief that obscure the simple legal concept of equal protection under the law may be sufficient justification for ordinary citizens to comfort themselves with in their opposition to the extension of the right to marry to all citizens, but to people with the legal background and the solemn responsibilities of a Supreme Court Justice, it is inexcusable. They know better and yet they pander to politics, and what's worse insensate hatred. Their legal contortions to support their dissent have little basis in law and scarcely hide their personal agendas. These four will no doubt be remembered in ignominy along with the late and unlamented Chief Justice Taney as nursemaids of prejudice. Fortunately, we are not living in the 19th Century and their views are not (however barely) the majority on the current Court.

The basics of this case couldn't be much more clear. There's a difference between marriage as a religious concept and marriage as a civil concept. Nobody is telling any church how to operate or any person what their religious beliefs, no matter how bigoted or backward they are, should be. When it comes to the government however, the right to discriminate does not exist. Marriage as a civil concept establishes three basic things: recognition of a monogamous relationship that is intended to be long-term, rules about how that relationship is recognized and managed legally and an orderly process for the dissolution of that relationship-should it become necessary. Denying two people (or more correctly and entire class of potential couples) access to the legal recognition and administration afforded marriage simply because of who they are is a fairly clear-cut violation of the principals of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

That's a fairly clinical way of looking at an emotional subject. However, that's what you should expect from the Supreme Court. When it comes right down to it, the principals that the United States was founded on, and what they have evolved into over time, are sound and generally produce results that recognize things like basic dignity and fairness (Justice Thomas' dissenting opinion notwithstanding). When those fundamental ideals have been ignored or hidden by ancient prejudice, it has resulted in things like legal recognition of humans as property or the concept of "separate but equal". Today is not that day.

It means nothing to my marriage if the gay couple next door wishes to make a legal and emotional commitment to each other and have that committed relationship recognized. It does mean something to know that their relationship will be subject to the same rules and principals that govern other similar relationships (like my own marriage) and to know they are treated fairly by our system of laws. Thankfully the majority has recognized, in very eloquent terms, the value of those ideas. The justices in the minority of this decision have shamed themselves for history.

So today is a good day in the annals of American jurisprudence. It's a day when the underlying principals that make the American system of justice and government great prevailed. It's good to know that the politics and posturing that has seemingly hijacked those principals can be overcome. To my fellow Americans who are gay (and especially to my friends and relatives who fall into that category) I am very happy that should you fall in love and wish to enter into a long-term committed relationship with the person you love you will now have access to a legally recognized marriage-just like everyone else who falls into THAT category. I am sorry that something that should have been so fundamentally acceptable was such a struggle to achieve. But that is now behind us.

I'm usually quite tolerant of ideas or opinions that differ from my own. Nothing is learned from solitary certitude and the hubris of believing in the infallibility of your own intellect is a dangerous thing. I am convinced however, that today's decision is the correct one-for fairness, for humane and decent treatment of all people in our country, and for making our society a bit better. No court decision or law will ever eliminate hatred or bigotry from people's hearts but, at least on this subject, those dark intentions will no longer be the law of the land. I'd like to highlight, but not dwell upon, the failings of Scalia, Alito, Thomas and Roberts, because today is a good day. But make no mistake, history will judge these four very harshly.

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The Four Dissenters..... (Original Post) Laxman Jun 2015 OP
I think they'll be judged harshly, also Warpy Jun 2015 #1
You've Got It.... Laxman Jun 2015 #2
hifiguy, J. concurs wholly in the opinion of hifiguy Jun 2015 #3
I've Always Found... Laxman Jun 2015 #7
With apologies to Dr. King, I have a dream ... SwankyXomb Jun 2015 #4
I would go get drunk all weekend. hifiguy Jun 2015 #5
We Need To Take Back The Senate... harrose Jun 2015 #6
We Need To Take Back The Senate.... Laxman Jun 2015 #11
Just think about the next president! Beach Rat Jun 2015 #8
I Don't Understand Roberts.... Laxman Jun 2015 #9
That rather baffled me as well. hifiguy Jun 2015 #12
And I'm Particularly Surprised At Roberts.... Laxman Jun 2015 #10
I remember reading somewhere that Harry Blackmun, may he rest in peace, hifiguy Jun 2015 #13
Unfortunately, Humility.... Laxman Jun 2015 #14
Yes, Harry Blackmun. lovemydog Jun 2015 #17
He was a man, a judge, who came to see hifiguy Jun 2015 #18
K&R burrowowl Jun 2015 #15
Thank goodness for the majority on the court. lovemydog Jun 2015 #16
How Come They Didn't Mention.... Laxman Jun 2015 #19
LOL. We can try and write a parody of it here. lovemydog Jun 2015 #20

Warpy

(111,336 posts)
1. I think they'll be judged harshly, also
Fri Jun 26, 2015, 02:44 PM
Jun 2015

This undoes the tangle of red tape same sex married couples have faced at the IRS, the VA, Social Security, and other Federal agencies because their marriages were recognized only in a few of the more progressive states, my Wild West state among them.

Marriage, at the most basic, is the promotion of a non relative into the first degree relative slot. Night nurses who have followed me into the profession won't have to put their jobs on the line to sneak life partners past phobe families to say goodby to a dying lover in an ICU. Life partners will be able to respect a partner's wishes if there is a funeral.

It has happened a lot faster than I expected it to, although I knew it was inevitable once a few states had it and the sky didn't erupt with divine lightning. I really expected the USSC to punt back to the states again. I'm delighted they didn't.

Kennedy seems to realize that the exclusion of one group of people from a body of civil law threatens all of us, we all belong to one group or another a majority doesn't like. This is a clear message to all bullies and bigots: back off.

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
2. You've Got It....
Fri Jun 26, 2015, 02:56 PM
Jun 2015

that's the biggest part of this. The right to have a relationship, and all the things that go along with it, legally recognized because other than the sexual orientation (for lack of a better term) it is indistinguishable from the already recognized heterosexual marriage. Underlying this decision (and unspoken) is a recognition that sexual orientation is not choice or lifestyle as opponents like to believe, but a core element of who a person is. That's the basic ticket to equal protection and therefore should be a corollary finding in the majority's decision. Hopefully we've evolved as a society to that point.

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
7. I've Always Found...
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:24 AM
Jun 2015

that when you explain this issue to people on these terms-that it's an issue of fundamental fairness-even very conservative people are accepting. This of course means they have to be smart enough to grasp the argument. There's little to be done for the terminally stupid or those steeped in hate or ignorance. It's high time that lowest common detonator was no longer the determinant of our law.

SwankyXomb

(2,030 posts)
4. With apologies to Dr. King, I have a dream ...
Fri Jun 26, 2015, 03:30 PM
Jun 2015

that President Obama holds a press conference in the Rose Garden, because it's a beautiful summer day, and announces that he thanks Justices Alito, Scalia, and Thomas, who are all standing behind him, that he thanks them for their service to the nation, and that he is accepting their resignations from the Supreme Court, effective immediately. The three of them are then hustled off stage, never to be heard from again on political or judicial matters.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
5. I would go get drunk all weekend.
Fri Jun 26, 2015, 03:34 PM
Jun 2015

Replace them with Erwin Chemerinsky, Goodwin Liu and my wonderful prof from Harvard Law, Richard Fallon.

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
11. We Need To Take Back The Senate....
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 07:03 PM
Jun 2015

so there will never be justices like these appointed to the Court again.

Beach Rat

(273 posts)
8. Just think about the next president!
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:49 AM
Jun 2015

Imagine if these four loons were in the majority! They'd probably be citing Dred Scott as precedent for their decisions allowing for indentured servitude or letting CEO's own their employees. All it would take would be one bad appointment.

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
9. I Don't Understand Roberts....
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 12:34 PM
Jun 2015

position on this. He's more of a corporatist than an ideologue. The other three are three are just intellectually dishonest-and I really think Scalia is just unhinged. This should have been a 9-0 decision. And if you can't uncouple your personal religious beliefs from applying a legal analysis, you don't belong on the Supreme Court.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
12. That rather baffled me as well.
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 07:23 PM
Jun 2015

Chiefs generally do not want to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to be mentioned in the same sentence as Roger "Dred Scott" Taney, except maybe for Rehnquist, who I am convinced spent his off hours looking for loopholes in the Emancipation Proclamation.

His dissent seemed based more on an incoherent opposition to the entire concept of judicial review which has not been apparent in his other writings.

And this should have been 9-0. It is hornbook equal protection jurisprudence, as Richard Posner explained for the slow in his magnificent Seventh Circuit opinion of last summer in the WI and IN cases.

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
10. And I'm Particularly Surprised At Roberts....
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jun 2015

considering his more reasonable approach to his job lately. I don't mind conservatism-I don't expect everyone to agree with me-as long you are honest and rational. What I don't like is dishonesty and partisanship from someone who is supposed to be above this. His position on this case is out of line with his recent behavior.

Why Is John Roberts Siding With the Supreme Court’s Liberals?

John Roberts has changed. Consider the chief justice’s voting record. From 2005—the year he was appointed—until 2012—the year of the first Affordable Care Act decision—Roberts was a reliable vote on the court’s staunch conservative wing. In controversies from abortion to campaign finance to guns, Roberts sided with Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, and Anthony Kennedy. The 2012 health care case was only the second time Roberts had ever voted with the liberal side of the court in a 5–4 decision.* Lately, however, we’re seeing a very different Roberts. Last term Roberts surprised many by breaking left on a few major cases. And so far this term, Roberts has voted with Stephen Breyer (90 percent), Ruth Bader Ginsburg (85 percent), and Sonia Sotomayor (83 percent) more often than he has joined Thomas (66 percent), Kennedy (74 percent), and Alito (77 percent). And that isn’t just on minor cases. He’s recently sided with the liberals in cases on issues that typically divide the court along ideological lines, including campaign finance and anti-discrimination law.

Little wonder then that some conservatives ask if Roberts is “going wobbly.” While court watchers have recognized and speculated over Roberts’ shift to the left, the reason for the shift remains obscure. Beyond amorphous notions of Roberts’ special concerns for his “legacy” or the court’s “legitimacy,” what accounts for Roberts’ recent move to moderation? Only he truly knows the answer, but one possibility is that Roberts has learned something from his time on the bench. In particular, his transformation might have been influenced by two specific cases: one high-profile, the other largely forgotten.

Few Supreme Court decisions have sparked more controversy and subjected the court to more widespread criticism than its 2010 ruling in the campaign finance reform case Citizens United. The court’s 5–4 decision, with Roberts in the majority, held that corporations and unions have a First Amendment right to spend unlimited amounts of money to influence elections. The decision put the court at the very epicenter of political debate—precisely the place Roberts said he wanted to avoid during his confirmation hearings. The ruling, which many believe benefits the GOP, has been seen as partisan; almost no one sees Citizens United as simply a matter of balls and strikes. It was also anything but the kind of small, incremental steps Roberts claimed to prefer when altering existing doctrine.

If one wanted an explanation for why Roberts changed his vote in the first Affordable Care Act case in 2012, Citizens United would be a good place to start. According to Jeffrey Toobin, Citizens United was “orchestrated” by Roberts. Yet the opposite is likely true. Roberts preferred a narrow ruling in Citizens United but was persuaded by his conservative colleagues to join a very broad, precedent-reversing decision that radically shifted the terrain of campaign finance law. The country, across political lines, was angry. And two years later the Affordable Care Act case looked like a repeat performance: The chief justice sought a narrow ruling voiding the individual mandate while his conservative colleagues pushed for a more aggressive ruling that would overturn the whole law, including the hundreds of provisions on issues that didn’t relate in any way to the constitutionality of the mandate. As reporting at the time revealed, on the eve of a presidential election that promised to make the court’s decision the biggest issue in the campaign, Roberts seemingly balked. He wasn’t following his friends down the rabbit hole again.

Roberts may also have learned a similar, valuable lesson from a far less familiar ruling: House v. Bell, from Roberts’ very first term on the court. Few remember the facts of this case—Paul House, a man sentenced to death, won the right to file a habeas petition in federal court—but you can bet Roberts will never forget it. Joined by Scalia and Thomas, Roberts wrote a partial dissent that contemptuously dismissed House’s claims of innocence.* To House’s contention that his scratches and bruises were from his construction work and a cat’s claws, Roberts derisively replied, “Scratches from a cat, indeed.” Several years later, however, prosecutors dropped all charges against House, who was exonerated by DNA evidence.


read the rest here-it is very interesting : http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/06/john_roberts_isn_t_a_reliable_conservative_vote_the_chief_justice_is_siding.html
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
13. I remember reading somewhere that Harry Blackmun, may he rest in peace,
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 07:25 PM
Jun 2015

said that humility is a quality every judge should possess and reflect on.

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
14. Unfortunately, Humility....
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:05 PM
Jun 2015

is in short supply these days. Everyone's a genius and everyone is always right. Well at least if you're in a position of power. Even today, 25 years after I held the job, the memories of my days as a prosecutor still make me a bit uneasy. You always think you're right, but you've got to know that you're not always right. When your actions have serious consequences for other human beings, you better have the humility to consider that you may very well be wrong.

Blackmun is a good person to quote here. There is someone who grew during his tenure on the bench. A great contrast to Scalia and hopefully a good role model for Roberts.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
17. Yes, Harry Blackmun.
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:14 PM
Jun 2015

'I hope you will be yourself, human, even a little sentimental, possessed of a sense of humor and a sense of humility...There are arrogant people in this world and, what is worse, arrogant judges.'

http://www.azquotes.com/author/1460-Harry_A_Blackmun

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
18. He was a man, a judge, who came to see
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:13 AM
Jun 2015

that doing justice must sometimes eclipse following the cold letter of the law. Those men and women who realize that deserve to be called wise and worthy judges.

Harry was a wise judge.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
16. Thank goodness for the majority on the court.
Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:07 PM
Jun 2015

I agree that history will not treat the dissenters kindly. I can't wait until they retire and are replaced by a democratic President and approved by a democratic Congress.

Meanwhile, all praise to the majority of this court who are thankfully in this particular matter enlightened.

Enabling buck wild parades and parties this weekend.

http://www.theonion.com/article/supreme-court-rules-favor-most-buck-wild-pride-par-50768

Laxman

(2,419 posts)
19. How Come They Didn't Mention....
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 11:37 AM
Jun 2015

Scalia's dissent in that article? Shoddy reporting! I'm sure it would have been hilarious.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
20. LOL. We can try and write a parody of it here.
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:29 PM
Jun 2015

Like 'buck wild celebrating should be restricted to the shadows' or some such nonsense.

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