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Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:20 AM Jul 2015

So, a guy who knows I lean on the progressive side, walks up to me

and starts spewing that Nader, backed by progressives, lost the 2000 election for the Democrats, that progressives have never done anything to advance the cause of Democrats, that they're always whining and wanting ponies and stuff and ended with asking me if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination, would I vote for her.

At first I was a little taken aback and, being the reactionary that I have a tendency to be, ALMOST started to fire back and correct his misinformation but then I stopped. Why was this gentleman being so in-your-face aggressive? Can't he make his point without the aggression? And then, let's say, he calls a group of people over, many of whom he knows, informs them of how disloyal I am to The Party and the group then begins to cajole me and needle me and try to get me to react. Maybe to even run me off for good. And then it came to me. He's TRYING to get me to over-react. He's trying to get me to say something in the heat of the moment that can then be selectively and adequately spinned to make it sound like I'm the aggressor. So, I chose not to play his game and, instead, commented on what a lovely day it was and I hope we see rain soon.

161 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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So, a guy who knows I lean on the progressive side, walks up to me (Original Post) Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 OP
Love it! peacebird Jul 2015 #1
I wasn't so kind ... GeorgeGist Jul 2015 #2
Sounds like a real asshole Fumesucker Jul 2015 #3
This. PowerToThePeople Jul 2015 #96
:-) Lars39 Jul 2015 #4
Me too. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #7
Was he really "in your face" or you just happened to notice him asking that question somewhere? Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #5
Seems to me that you missed the point a mile. nm rhett o rick Jul 2015 #134
No, actually.... maddiemom Jul 2015 #159
Was this actually in rl? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #6
I am doubtful of most of the "anecdotes" cwydro Jul 2015 #8
I wasn't calling the OP flame-bait. I was saying the situation described sounds like things that Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #13
My first reaction as well randys1 Jul 2015 #53
Do you mean folks just don't walk up to you, willy nilly, to discuss presidential history? DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #77
You know how people write "LOL" all the time, but they don't really mean it? MADem Jul 2015 #154
This one made perfect sense to me. cui bono Jul 2015 #141
On DU, it's worse than flame bait. It's bait to violate the TOS: "Vote for Democrats." merrily Jul 2015 #36
Bingo riderinthestorm Jul 2015 #51
Cool story. n/t JTFrog Jul 2015 #9
Its in response to this thread riderinthestorm Jul 2015 #49
Is it though? I didn't see a loyalty oath request in the OP of the thread you linked. merrily Jul 2015 #82
Yes. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #88
Ohhhh, sorry, to have been so literal. merrily Jul 2015 #90
The demand for loyalty oaths Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #93
Dunno, but I meant specifically for Hillary in the 2016 Presidential. merrily Jul 2015 #102
Make it rain. JEB Jul 2015 #10
One of my absolute favorites artists of all time. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #14
Hey! I know a guy too. onehandle Jul 2015 #11
Where exactly did I say I knew him? Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #20
So he was a total stranger? onehandle Jul 2015 #22
Better? Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #23
Well, you said a guy who knows i lean to the left, so the implication is there 7962 Jul 2015 #138
Please see Post #129. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #139
I hope you put him in his place! merrily Jul 2015 #38
I hope you commented on the weather. eom Blanks Jul 2015 #50
How interesting. MuseRider Jul 2015 #12
Great story, LWolf Jul 2015 #15
And the responses from the Usual Suspects Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #17
To paraphrase Huckleberry Finn: It was free---and worth every penny, too! merrily Jul 2015 #74
.... merrily Jul 2015 #39
Your response was the right reaction. Baitball Blogger Jul 2015 #16
Which parallels are you seeing to the 2000 election? merrily Jul 2015 #40
We have two strong candidates for those who wish to vote democratically. (small d) Baitball Blogger Jul 2015 #54
Bernie Sanders is running as a Democrat and has said all along that he would not a spoiler. merrily Jul 2015 #81
When he formally switches parties I am sure it will be big news. Baitball Blogger Jul 2015 #91
Um, he has formally switched parties in the only way he possibly can under Vermont law, by merrily Jul 2015 #95
Thanks for the info. Baitball Blogger Jul 2015 #111
No paper in states with liberal voting policies. Vermont is not the only one. merrily Jul 2015 #113
Yes, Florida is a pain. Baitball Blogger Jul 2015 #118
This is typical of people so unsure of their own position that they needs others to reinforce it. Joe Nation Jul 2015 #18
I agree Oilwellian Jul 2015 #35
nicely put! retrowire Jul 2015 #52
A dynamic so utterly true Populist_Prole Jul 2015 #61
Sorry to hear that. This guy sounds like a complete knob. nt DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2015 #19
was he wearing a brown shirt? nt HFRN Jul 2015 #21
You did the right thing. Captain Stern Jul 2015 #24
not only did this dude bait you G_j Jul 2015 #25
True, but I think it's more than that. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #28
agreed G_j Jul 2015 #31
Although.... merrily Jul 2015 #42
The problem is, Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #44
I wouldn't know. I live in Boston and I love it. I'll leave a light on. merrily Jul 2015 #45
You are a cool and nice person grounded in reality. PufPuf23 Jul 2015 #26
How many votes did Nader get? Snobblevitch Jul 2015 #27
Nearly 100,000 in Florida. I seem to remember that state 'may have been in play.' onehandle Jul 2015 #29
Florida would not have mattered if Gore have won his home state. Snobblevitch Jul 2015 #32
Not that it's relevant to the 2016 Dem primary, but more FL Dems voted for Bush than for Nader. merrily Jul 2015 #80
What does Nader have to do with this election? merrily Jul 2015 #43
Where did I mention this election or Stein? Snobblevitch Jul 2015 #60
Reply 27 seemed to be a referencing Nader in connection with this election. merrily Jul 2015 #62
I would have thought naming Nader and Gore Snobblevitch Jul 2015 #65
I understood that you were referencing the 2000 election, but I thought your post was merrily Jul 2015 #67
PS. I jumped the gun mentioning only Stein. I checked the website. McKinney is also seeking merrily Jul 2015 #72
Ask him if he'll do the same.., JHB Jul 2015 #30
No, because then I'm playing his game. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #34
Gee, and I thought the loyalty oath demand was only a message board thing. merrily Jul 2015 #33
I once complained about someone complaining about someone complaining olddots Jul 2015 #37
*I* don't even know what "luberty" means. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #41
Me neither, but I like the sound of it ... CrawlingChaos Jul 2015 #121
What's his DU user name? Capt. Obvious Jul 2015 #46
imabigfatjerk probably. eom Cleita Jul 2015 #56
Good one. Duppers Jul 2015 #109
Bullying instincts are strong in some. raouldukelives Jul 2015 #47
And bullies seem to really shine Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #48
So this 'Nader lost the 2000 election' meme is starting to pop up on DU too. Cleita Jul 2015 #55
Starting? Capt. Obvious Jul 2015 #58
On and off. It seems like it's being resurrected again for the upcoming election. Cleita Jul 2015 #59
I've seen it on at least two different threads today alone, but it started as soon as merrily Jul 2015 #86
As they say "know when to pick your fights". Good advice but hard snagglepuss Jul 2015 #57
Some people act like children..... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #63
I find it odd that so many have chosen to doubt your story, though you've given them no reason to... Bubzer Jul 2015 #64
Did anyone post to Taz that he or she doubted her story? merrily Jul 2015 #87
Not word for word. Bubzer Jul 2015 #114
I get your point. SoapBox Jul 2015 #66
I write off anyone who claims that Nader "lost the election" for Gore Maedhros Jul 2015 #68
Look, you. It's very simple: McGovern lost to incumbent war time President tricky Dick Nixon only merrily Jul 2015 #89
It's enought to start me thinking that maybe all these people fixated on Nader Maedhros Jul 2015 #97
Oh, dear. There's just no convincing you, is there? merrily Jul 2015 #99
Well, I do spend most of my time daydreaming of ponies Maedhros Jul 2015 #100
But, only the purest of the pure ponies, right? merrily Jul 2015 #115
UNICORN PONIES. Maedhros Jul 2015 #120
Thanks. Should work HERE too! elleng Jul 2015 #69
well played, well played. blackspade Jul 2015 #70
<tales a bow> Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #71
Take two! blackspade Jul 2015 #75
Sounds like a confused libertarian. They seem to float around between the parties. Rex Jul 2015 #73
if they don't have any accomplishments or principles to run on they have to use invective MisterP Jul 2015 #76
It's only July 1st, but the Post of the Month Award is already locked up. Scuba Jul 2015 #78
Why thank you, Scuba. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #79
Nader blamers don't want to face a stolen election scenerio olddots Jul 2015 #83
Ask him if and if he doesn't then WHY DOESN'T HE support Instant Runoff Voting? cascadiance Jul 2015 #84
^^This^^ Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #85
Maybe we need a movement to do this. Has anyone done a petition to get such a law Cleita Jul 2015 #92
We'd need 50 petitions. jeff47 Jul 2015 #104
Thanks. Cleita Jul 2015 #105
tried it in MA in 2012... druidity33 Jul 2015 #125
The left doesn't exist to serve the democrats. It's the democrats that exist to serve the left. craigmatic Jul 2015 #94
And the left has been serving the country more at large too... cascadiance Jul 2015 #98
Exactly. Nobody is going to vote for a party that is a rip off of the other party. The most you craigmatic Jul 2015 #144
If we had a real Dem to vote for to take the side Perot did on NAFTA then... cascadiance Jul 2015 #160
I have an old patio table umbrella, pulled it out when the temps went over a hundred, give jtuck004 Jul 2015 #101
. . . Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #112
Great response, Le Taz Hot! Dont call me Shirley Jul 2015 #103
That's what the Ignore button and Trash thread button are for. nt valerief Jul 2015 #106
those dont work when a person is actually standing in front of you Romeo.lima333 Jul 2015 #107
No, but the OP read like a disguised version of what goes on here. nt valerief Jul 2015 #108
Ya think? Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #116
Ha! I got it, but it amazes me how some others don't. valerief Jul 2015 #161
But merrily Jul 2015 #119
Republicans paid for Nader's campaign, and Nader took their money. (NT) The Wizard Jul 2015 #110
As a practical matter, anyone who runs as an Indie has to take money from any legal source. merrily Jul 2015 #117
I love it!!! CrawlingChaos Jul 2015 #122
Good for you. Never take the bait. Ignore the nastiness, focus on the wonderful things we have sabrina 1 Jul 2015 #123
Seeing as this website was founded on the core principle that... DRoseDARs Jul 2015 #124
Actually the Florida Supreme Court had ordered a recount. Cleita Jul 2015 #127
Just coincidence; as far as DU is concerned, folks should think nothing of it ... nikto Jul 2015 #126
But who does this kind of thing? Tipperary Jul 2015 #128
So, I just kind of assumed that everyone Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #129
Aha. Tipperary Jul 2015 #131
Then who are the usual suspects? n/t seaglass Jul 2015 #145
That would be a call-out Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #147
I wasn't asking for names. It appeared you were calling the usual suspects the ones who did not seaglass Jul 2015 #153
Allegory? Where is the symbolism? WinkyDink Jul 2015 #151
Laughter, laughter is often a good first response :) Babel_17 Jul 2015 #130
Libertarians go out of their way to make it seem that liberals.. KyleMcShades Jul 2015 #132
The OP said it was an allegory, see post 129 DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #133
Thank you. KyleMcShades Jul 2015 #135
You are welcome. Have a nice evening./nt DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #136
Check and checkmate! n/t Admiral Loinpresser Jul 2015 #137
Was this in DC? Does this person's paycheck depend on corporate Dems? yurbud Jul 2015 #140
That's the way to handle it. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #142
Love it! marym625 Jul 2015 #143
A true Democrat supports the Party's elected nominee. anniebelle Jul 2015 #146
What a nice day it's going to be. Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #148
LOL RiverLover Jul 2015 #149
You hang with the wrong crowd. WinkyDink Jul 2015 #150
Allegory Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #152
That guy is your friend MannyGoldstein Jul 2015 #155
I am a bit skeptical of this account. olegramps Jul 2015 #156
You took the high road, that would have been hard for me davidpdx Jul 2015 #157
That's just what your friend was trying to do. You handled it just right. Autumn Jul 2015 #158

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
5. Was he really "in your face" or you just happened to notice him asking that question somewhere?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:27 AM
Jul 2015

If the latter, why go anywhere near him if you are not interested in engaging?

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
159. No, actually....
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 11:05 AM
Jul 2015

Most of his rant was bullshit, but I still feel that, while Nader had a right to run, HIS "spewing on there being no difference between Bush and Gore opened a meme picked up by many progressives (including my own daughter, voting for the first time and for Nader) have later regretted. Having been active in local Democratic politics for years, I don't see the many progressives I know making the same mistake again. Most of us love Bernie, but no one will stay home and not vote for Hillary this time around. Her Wall Street connections aside, take a look at all the Repug candidates. There are so many other areas in which there is no comparison. One of the things that I love most about Bernie is his being unwilling to divide progressives for his own ego. Liberal dislike for supporting the "lessor evil" is all well and good, but elects people like Dubya. Does anyone really believe Gore would have given us Iraq or ignored the "Osama determine to strike..." memo. In fact the Clinton administration tried to warn of this. Gore's biggest mistake was blowing off Clinton. But hey, the Democratic strength, as opposed to Republicans, is learning from mistakes. Baby Steps!

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
13. I wasn't calling the OP flame-bait. I was saying the situation described sounds like things that
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:35 AM
Jul 2015

happen here all the time.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,849 posts)
77. Do you mean folks just don't walk up to you, willy nilly, to discuss presidential history?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:26 PM
Jul 2015

I can't go out of my apartment without at least a half dozen people regaling me about the hotly contested 1876 election and how it ended in the Corrupt Bargain.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
154. You know how people write "LOL" all the time, but they don't really mean it?
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 08:13 AM
Jul 2015


Your thread winning comment made me actually L-O-L!!!


And I don't do that easily!!!


merrily

(45,251 posts)
82. Is it though? I didn't see a loyalty oath request in the OP of the thread you linked.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:37 PM
Jul 2015

I literally have one eye closed, though.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
88. Yes.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:02 PM
Jul 2015

As well as in response to all the "When Bernie loses the nomination, will you vote for Hillary" posts and all the other flamebait threads that the desperate have been putting up the last few days. It was supposed to be satire but I think I need to hone my satire skills a little better before trying the next one. And I will.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
90. Ohhhh, sorry, to have been so literal.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:24 PM
Jul 2015

No matter when that guy came up to you, though, the demands for loyalty oaths started many months ago, long before Hillary even declared, long before she even had opponents.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
102. Dunno, but I meant specifically for Hillary in the 2016 Presidential.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 04:36 PM
Jul 2015

Posts critical of Hillary, maybe of either Clinton--I've forgotten--were met with:

"If Hillary wins the nomination, will you vote for her in the general?"

Mind you, this was when everyone was saying no one would even bother to challenge her in the primary (yet another bit of "conventional wisdom" from establishment politicians and pundits that was pure bs that they were desperate to make us believe).

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
138. Well, you said a guy who knows i lean to the left, so the implication is there
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:13 PM
Jul 2015

Unless he knows you and you dont know HIM!

MuseRider

(34,277 posts)
12. How interesting.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:34 AM
Jul 2015

Just happened to me on the Internet.

I thought it was desperate but just laughed because hey....I can live with every decision I have made and my votes are mine and nobody's business.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
15. Great story,
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jul 2015

and strangely familiar.

We'll all be better off when we figure out how not to play that kind of game.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
39. ....
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:24 AM
Jul 2015


[after playing out all possible outcomes for Global Thermonuclear War]

Joshua: Greetings, Professor Falken.

Stephen Falken: Hello, Joshua.

Joshua: A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?


War Games (1983)

Baitball Blogger

(47,262 posts)
16. Your response was the right reaction.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:39 AM
Jul 2015

This situation is why I avoid groups with strong agendas. It just gets too nasty, too fast.

I think the 2000 Election results is now known experience and I'm sure, should the situation repeat itself, people will take it into consideration when they make their choices.

Baitball Blogger

(47,262 posts)
54. We have two strong candidates for those who wish to vote democratically. (small d)
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:00 PM
Jul 2015

Ralph Nadar was an independent. Bernie Sanders is an independent. I see the same political quandary about to repeat itself, unless Sanders becomes a Democrat and allows the face off to occur at the Primary level.

Of course, this website is set up to support Democratic candidates, so I am sure that everyone knows that everything will change once the Primaries are over, one way or the other.

I am a no party affiliate with strong Democratic leanings, which is why I generally support whoever makes it through the Primaries. I cannot tell you how hard I took the 2000 election. By that time I had seen some dirty things occur at a community level, and when I saw what happened at the National level with the election, I realized just how dire our situation was.

I just watch with interest until the National election. Sanders is saying everything I want to hear from a candidate, but I will vote for Hillary if I don't feel he can win.

Anyway, GD is the wrong place for this discussion.

Baitball Blogger

(47,262 posts)
91. When he formally switches parties I am sure it will be big news.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:25 PM
Jul 2015

And it sounds like he is going about this in a responsible way.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
95. Um, he has formally switched parties in the only way he possibly can under Vermont law, by
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:30 PM
Jul 2015

declaring. He did that when he said he'd run in the Democratic primary. And it was big news.

In case you want to catch up on the legal issues:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128018753

About a minute and a half after he said it, the DNC sent out an email raising money off his announcement, too.

Baitball Blogger

(47,262 posts)
111. Thanks for the info.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:37 PM
Jul 2015

I assumed there would be paper work involved.

In Florida they even called me to make sure if I meant No Party when I checked off Independent.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
113. No paper in states with liberal voting policies. Vermont is not the only one.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:42 PM
Jul 2015

Surprisingly, Massachusetts is not. You must choose a party or register "unenrolled." A law allowing more than one day for voting was enacted only recently. Yet, a state like Florida has had several days for quite a while.

Voting is the most important thing in our system and it's a "gotcha" in many ways.

Baitball Blogger

(47,262 posts)
118. Yes, Florida is a pain.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:53 PM
Jul 2015

Our Primaries are partisan, which is to say I can't even vote in them. And we are required to show I.D. in our precinct as long as I have lived here.

I can tell you that this place is so insular that I have had experiences with some of the precinct volunteers that have made me feel uneasy. Top on the list is a man who dumped my ballot in the manual slot because he said the machine wasn't reading it (That was the Bush v Gore election). And it almost happened again with a good ole gal who was acting too casual when she took my ballot and opened up the sleeve to glance at it before she tried to put it through the machine. When it didn't go in she looked at me with a look like, "Well, what do we do now?"

I grabbed my ballot and told her that she wasn't supposed to look at it, then I loosened up the ballot so it wouldn't stick to the sleeve and after three quick tries, the machine finally took it.

I knew about loosening up the ballot because I had volunteered in another precinct in the election before and the people worked well together. The guy who was responsible for putting the ballots in the machine showed me how the ballot needed to be loose in the sleeve to allow the machine to take it without resistance.

I called the Supervisor of Elections and gave him an earful after that experience with the good ole gal. It's not a problem any more. They redesigned the sleeve since then and everything works fine.

Joe Nation

(972 posts)
18. This is typical of people so unsure of their own position that they needs others to reinforce it.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:44 AM
Jul 2015

I see this behavior constantly. They are usually trying to defend their own position by getting others to rally around them because they know how unpopular their views are outside of their own little bubble. The greatest thing you can do is give them nothing to push back against. It frustrates the hell out of them. When people are raging, they just want to pick an argument. If you don't argue, they walk away unfulfilled even if you say nothing. They eventually get curious about why you believe what you believe and actually start asking you questions. Then you have them.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
35. I agree
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:08 AM
Jul 2015

The less attention paid to those the OP describes, the better. I'm reminded of what one should do when a child throws a tantrum. The more attention you pay to their tantrums, the more obnoxious they become.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
61. A dynamic so utterly true
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:45 PM
Jul 2015

I do just what you say: Don't give them a thing to push back against. I'll do this either by "fogging" the differences of opinion ( emphasizing any commonalities ) or just a "meh, OK" attitude.

So true about the bubble thing too; They sure are desperate to "mainstream" their positions.

G_j

(40,400 posts)
25. not only did this dude bait you
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:52 AM
Jul 2015

he was attempting to waste your time, as progressives often are activists also, and time spent arguing about dead horses is time not spent addressing REAL issues.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
28. True, but I think it's more than that.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:54 AM
Jul 2015

He was trying to trap me and I think it's important for progressives to recognize when that is happening and how NOT to react to it else one might get run outta town, so to speak.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
42. Although....
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:28 AM
Jul 2015

When the sheriff says, "Don't let the sun set on you in this town," don't you pretty much know that's not a town you wanted to stay in anyway?

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
44. The problem is,
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:30 AM
Jul 2015

other towns are not any better. I recently experienced that and that's what I learned.

PufPuf23

(8,980 posts)
26. You are a cool and nice person grounded in reality.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:52 AM
Jul 2015

Need more people in the Democratic party especially in leadership like you.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
27. How many votes did Nader get?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:53 AM
Jul 2015

Did he get enoigh in any single state that caused Gore to lose the electoral votes in any of the states?

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
29. Nearly 100,000 in Florida. I seem to remember that state 'may have been in play.'
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:56 AM
Jul 2015
Ralph Nader 2000 Campaign Interview:
Will Ralph Nader become Al Gore's worst nightmare?


Of more immediate interest, at least to Al Gore, are Nader's respectable poll numbers: 7 to 10 percent in California as of June, 6 percent nationally. If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election.

Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn't be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush."


http://www.outsideonline.com/1837851/ralph-nader-2000-campaign-interview

Nader flew back and forth between California and Florida, finally spending the most of the last few weeks in Florida, and fulfilling his goal of a Bush Presidency.

Mission Accomplished! Eight years of Bush. Thirty years of a right-wing SCOTUS. Citizens United. Massive illegal redistricting. Gun insanity. Permanent state of war. Etc, etc, etc...

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
32. Florida would not have mattered if Gore have won his home state.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:59 AM
Jul 2015

Then again, he never did live there too much while growing up or while in office.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
80. Not that it's relevant to the 2016 Dem primary, but more FL Dems voted for Bush than for Nader.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:33 PM
Jul 2015

Those were not leftist Democrats, I'm guessing.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
62. Reply 27 seemed to be a referencing Nader in connection with this election.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jul 2015

You did not mention Stein. Since I thought you were talking about this election, I mentioned her.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
65. I would have thought naming Nader and Gore
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:58 PM
Jul 2015

in my post made it clear that the reference was to the 2000 election, the same election that was referred to in the OP.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
67. I understood that you were referencing the 2000 election, but I thought your post was
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jul 2015

implicitly drawing a parallel of some kind to this election.

If that was not so, you could simply have said so in response to Reply 43, since that was the very question Reply 43 asked you.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
72. PS. I jumped the gun mentioning only Stein. I checked the website. McKinney is also seeking
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 01:43 PM
Jul 2015

the Green nomination for POTUS. Comment stands, though. I just don't want to leave disinfo on the thread about the Green nomination: neither of them has it yet.

JHB

(37,194 posts)
30. Ask him if he'll do the same..,
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:57 AM
Jul 2015

...support Sanders if he should win the nomination.

It doesn't matter how remote he thinks Bernie's chances are; IF it turns out he's mistaken and Sanders wins, will he support the Democratic nominee?

It's a fair question.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
34. No, because then I'm playing his game.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jul 2015

He's written the narrative and to respond to him puts him on an equal footing when he really isn't which is why he's trying so desperately to bait me and run me out of town, metaphorically speaking of course.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
33. Gee, and I thought the loyalty oath demand was only a message board thing.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:59 AM
Jul 2015

I've only encountered it here and refused to answer every time, much as decent people did during the McCarthy hearing (though not Reagan or his boss, Jack Warner, who took it on themselves to aid and abet that creepy RW fucker).

Coming from a Democrat IRL, it would be even creepier than it is at DU.

?w=1000

 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
37. I once complained about someone complaining about someone complaining
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:21 AM
Jul 2015

and then someone complained about me complaining .It was all so agressively passive or passively agressive.

I hear you ,we once had Bush to comisserate about then we fought about the 2004 primaries ,2008 ,2012 .We argued about arguing about progressives verses liberals verses reacionaries and what the word luberty means.Thru it all I love this place although I still hate Led Zeppelin .

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
41. *I* don't even know what "luberty" means.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:25 AM
Jul 2015
Yeah, I know, cheap shot.

And a pox on your household for blaspheming Led Zeppelin.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
47. Bullying instincts are strong in some.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:36 AM
Jul 2015

Taking the high road is always the best approach in those situations. Glad to hear you did.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
48. And bullies seem to really shine
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:40 AM
Jul 2015

when they're online. It's so, what's the word, anonymous, so there's rarely consequences to their bullying. And that's especially true in a location wherein the Mayor and 2 City Council members are fast friends with the bully -- they tend to, well, overlook stuff.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
55. So this 'Nader lost the 2000 election' meme is starting to pop up on DU too.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:06 PM
Jul 2015

It seems to be aimed at discrediting Bernie as a third party candidate in an attempt to confuse the issue. Next time just retort that the Supreme Court lost the election for Gore not Nader. Then have your facts to back it up; that if they hadn't stopped a recount in Florida, the electoral votes would have gone to Gore and Gore got the majority of the popular vote. Nader had nothing to do with it.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
59. On and off. It seems like it's being resurrected again for the upcoming election.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:24 PM
Jul 2015

Gird your loins for the coming attacks.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
86. I've seen it on at least two different threads today alone, but it started as soon as
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:52 PM
Jul 2015

Bernie said he was going to explore a run. I don't remember how long ago that was.

If you question in any way or point out that Bernie is running as Democrat, the reply is that they are afraid he will lose primary, and then run in the general as an Indie. (Of course, that fear, if there's any truth to it, should lead them to make sure Bernie wins the primary. Oops.)

The fact that he promised not to run as a spoiler to help Republicans won't cause any deviation from the talking point, either.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
57. As they say "know when to pick your fights". Good advice but hard
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:22 PM
Jul 2015

to put into practice when one's buttons are pushed. Kudos on your response as it makes him look like a fanatic.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
63. Some people act like children.....
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:53 PM
Jul 2015

Outside of a McGovern rally done by grade school kids I saw some poor schmuck get cornered by three bullies who asked if he supported Nixon. Then they demanded that he say he supports Nixon. When he gave in and said it they shouted to the crowd, "Hey!!! We've got a Nixon supporter here!!!" trying to get the rest of the crowd to turn on him.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
68. I write off anyone who claims that Nader "lost the election" for Gore
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jul 2015

as someone woefully unable to think critically, and woefully able to shut down the analytical portions of the brain and simply regurgitate talking points.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
89. Look, you. It's very simple: McGovern lost to incumbent war time President tricky Dick Nixon only
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jul 2015

because McGovern was too liberal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12778825

Carter lost to Reagan only because Carter was too liberal, er, I mean, never mind about that election behind the curtain.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=edit&forum=1277&thread=8873

Mondale lost to incumbent President Reagan only because Mondale was too centrist liberal.


Policies

Mondale worked hard to build up the center of the party on economic and social issues. Unlike his own father, a fervent liberal, he was not a crusader for the New Deal. Instead he realized the Democratic base (especially ethnic blue collar workers) was gradually moving to the right and he worked to keep their support.[13] Mondale showed little or no interest in foreign policy until about 1974, when he realized that some knowledge was necessary if he had loftier aspirations than the Senate. He developed a centrist position, avoiding alignment with either the party's hawks (such as Henry M. Jackson) or its doves (such as George McGovern).[14] He took a liberal position on civil rights issues, which proved acceptable in Minnesota, a state with "a minuscule black population".[15] Mondale was a chief sponsor of the federal Fair Housing Act, which prohibits discrimination in housing and created HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity as the primary enforcer of the law.[16]

During the Johnson presidency Mondale supported the Vietnam War, but after Richard Nixon became President in 1969, he began to oppose it and participated in legislation aimed at restricting Nixon's ability to prolong the war. Mondale is pro-choice on the issue of abortion. [3][17]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mondale

And centrist Gore lost to Bush only because Nader ran. Nothing more complicated than that.

Always, always, always, it's the left that is responsible for all bad things in this country. It was true in the 1930s, the 1950s, 1970s and the 1990s and it's truer now than ever before. And, in 2020, it will be even truer of that Presidential election.

Gawd. How many times do you liberals have to have these things repeated to you?

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
97. It's enought to start me thinking that maybe all these people fixated on Nader
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:51 PM
Jul 2015

really aren't Liberals or Progressives at all...

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
100. Well, I do spend most of my time daydreaming of ponies
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 04:16 PM
Jul 2015

instead of concentrating on serious business.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
73. Sounds like a confused libertarian. They seem to float around between the parties.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jul 2015

I've had people that I've known for years now tell me Free Trade is a wonderful invention that will save the planet. Amazing how they agree with libertarians and Reaganites...I could have sworn they were more progressive then that.

However their lack of replies to said questions about why they support neoliberalism were met with complete silence. So I took that to mean that I was correct in that they knew the difference between regulated and unregulated caplitalism and desire the second one.

Just a small group of people, the rest are much easier to talk to since they want to discuss issues and ideas.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
76. if they don't have any accomplishments or principles to run on they have to use invective
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:20 PM
Jul 2015

it's like the old joke that the closer the candidates the more vitriolic the campaign--the typical Latin American duopoly runs on incidents from 50 or 80 years ago, (mutually-true) accusations that the other guy was a death-squad-running cartel underboss, and "activists" that arrive in Mercedes-Benzes and new SUVs; the banana company then offers free rail and truck transport to the polls or the "Reencounter With the Fatherland" where the "shock troops of democracy" listen to a demagogue, get some box-lunch beef (the only meat in four years), a cup of guaro, and 5 dollars American (not to vote for any party, just to reward their participation in this blow against the totalitarian menace), then they go out and vote for the party that their ancestors have voted for since the 1880 election

it's a perfect machine: the conservative elites get the laws they want, sometimes a riot produces a Labor Code, and otherwise democracy ends at the big table with the fishbowl on it

 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
83. Nader blamers don't want to face a stolen election scenerio
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:39 PM
Jul 2015

Libertarians counteract their feelings of powerlessness by believing they are entitled to do anything they please because they are so fucking smart and Luberty is a town in Texas isn't it ?

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
84. Ask him if and if he doesn't then WHY DOESN'T HE support Instant Runoff Voting?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 02:40 PM
Jul 2015

... to avoid these problems and let third parties like the Greens help get out the vote and give more second place votes for Democrats that would solidify their wins, and provide more feedback from vote totals on initial counts before instant runoff "runoffs" to help elected candidates know what those who voted for them and what *more* of the voting populace want them to do that had them higher in their voting hierarchy.

We don't have proportional representation or instant runoff voting like countries such as Australia do, and we have a system dominated by two parties where all other parties are shunned by it by design, as it allows the corporate lobbyists to buy both sides and not allow any voices in to do work more for the people that the lobbyists might not like instead of the other way around.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
92. Maybe we need a movement to do this. Has anyone done a petition to get such a law
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:26 PM
Jul 2015

on the ballot? Along with ending gerrymandering, this would put the nation back on the track of honest elections that reflect the will of the people.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
104. We'd need 50 petitions.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 04:50 PM
Jul 2015

Each state runs their own elections. So each state can implement IRV independently. You don't need a coordinated national effort, you need a big effort in your state.

 

craigmatic

(4,510 posts)
94. The left doesn't exist to serve the democrats. It's the democrats that exist to serve the left.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:30 PM
Jul 2015

Or at least that's how it should be.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
98. And the left has been serving the country more at large too...
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:56 PM
Jul 2015

... which is also the way a democracy should be too.

Democrats recently haven't been so much doing that since they have had this DLC cancer infecting them.

 

craigmatic

(4,510 posts)
144. Exactly. Nobody is going to vote for a party that is a rip off of the other party. The most you
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 05:04 AM
Jul 2015

could hope for under that scenario is a protest vote when the dominant party becomes corrupt. If you really look at it the only 2 elections the DLC actually won were 1992 and 1996. To be perfectly honest, they didn't really win in either year because Perot split the republicans. So they actually have a shitty electoral record on top of their shitty policies. Traditional dems have been winning since FDR and could've done just as well in those years too.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
160. If we had a real Dem to vote for to take the side Perot did on NAFTA then...
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 11:29 AM
Jul 2015

I wonder where we'd be today on so-called "free trade" and where our economy would have been since that time. This TPA, TPP, TISA, etc. would all have never happened probably, and Silicon Valley would probably still be the high tech capitol of the world too.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
101. I have an old patio table umbrella, pulled it out when the temps went over a hundred, give
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 04:24 PM
Jul 2015

the dogs some more shade. I patch the holes with fishing line and some plastic window screen.

It has these net walls, so now I sit in the evening and watch a couple pesky bugs trying to get to me. But they can't.

The walls aren't all that substantial, and they have a lot of holes, but just that little bit of protection keeps me from getting annoyed and over-reacting with sprays or other "solutions" that would ultimately be harmful to me and the neighbors.

Just a little screening...

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
103. Great response, Le Taz Hot!
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 04:38 PM
Jul 2015

They're just like pushy kids, always push push pushing their parents over-react buttons. Look at them like they're screaming for an ice cream cone in a packed check out line.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
117. As a practical matter, anyone who runs as an Indie has to take money from any legal source.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:52 PM
Jul 2015

Besides, taking money from Republicans leaves less for them to donate to Republican candidates.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
123. Good for you. Never take the bait. Ignore the nastiness, focus on the wonderful things we have
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 07:20 PM
Jul 2015

to be thrilled about right now.

So grateful to have a candidate I can support without ever having to defend.

 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
124. Seeing as this website was founded on the core principle that...
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 09:02 PM
Jul 2015

...the 2000 Presidential Election was out-and-out stolen by both voter roll purges of eligible voters wrongly purged, electronic voting systems developed by Bush donors, and a Supreme Court that shrugged its shoulders and kicked it back to a Bush-friendly Florida State Supreme Court...

...no, Nader was not a relevant factor.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
127. Actually the Florida Supreme Court had ordered a recount.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 09:16 PM
Jul 2015

It was the US Supreme Court that stopped the recount and handed Florida to Bush. Many lawyers believe the stepped out of their jurisdiction too. When various news agencies went in after the fact and finished the recount that the SCOTUS stopped, it turned out Gore had won Florida.

 

Tipperary

(6,930 posts)
128. But who does this kind of thing?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 09:19 PM
Jul 2015

Background or something? Was this while you were at work? At Starbucks? At a 5K race?

Where did this happen?

I am imagining myself in line at the bagel shop and this happening. I really can not comprehend it at all. At work would be even worse.

But I think this is not a true story, but instead a metaphor for what you feel about what is happening on the DU.

Just my opinion.

 

Tipperary

(6,930 posts)
131. Aha.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 09:26 PM
Jul 2015

Well then. I thought so.

I understood it as such. (I said metaphor, but yes, I got it). I thought that you stated it well.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
147. That would be a call-out
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 07:18 AM
Jul 2015

which is against DU rules. Been on this Board for 15 years and never had a time out. I'm aiming to keep it that way. Progressives know that gaggle of DUers that I'm talking about.

seaglass

(8,173 posts)
153. I wasn't asking for names. It appeared you were calling the usual suspects the ones who did not
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 07:33 AM
Jul 2015

believe you were telling a true story as opposed to those who accepted that your story literally happened.

I accept that I'm not a member of the "DU progressive cool kids club" so forgive me for not seeing any other glaring differences in this thread.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
130. Laughter, laughter is often a good first response :)
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 09:26 PM
Jul 2015

Hahaha, yeah, because Progressives don't care about winning, and weren't passionately engaged in stopping Bush. That was their problem, the Progressives didn't care enough about winning.

P.S. Nader got a lot of votes from people who would never vote for Gore.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/06/1260721/-The-Nader-Myth

Arguably, he nearly cost Bush the election.

KyleMcShades

(40 posts)
132. Libertarians go out of their way to make it seem that liberals..
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:40 PM
Jul 2015

are the "violent" ones while they reject violence, when in reality the opposite is true. Libertarians are the ones who want to use guns to force their beliefs and tyrannical system on everyone.

It was smart of you to realize what they we're trying to do. They like to record it too and show it on youtube as propaganda to "prove" liberals are violent and aggressive.

Of course, its only human nature to get angry when someone is being a jerk to you, and bringing you down. More liberals need to realize this strategy and learn to keep their cool, even if they deserve to get mad.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,849 posts)
133. The OP said it was an allegory, see post 129
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:45 PM
Jul 2015

Kind of like Plato's Allegory Of The Cave... Plato really didn't see the reaction of cavedwellers reaction to their own shadows.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
140. Was this in DC? Does this person's paycheck depend on corporate Dems?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 11:17 PM
Jul 2015

Who the hell else would do this?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
142. That's the way to handle it.
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 12:08 AM
Jul 2015

Let's be thankful that we have so many good candidates. I might be rooting for someone else if it weren't for the glorious fact that BERNIE is running.

He is the best of a good to not all that bad lot, but he is just so far above the others that I am thrilled that he is running.

Some who now back other candidates will, eventually, come around and decide to back Bernie. The people who back other candidates are good people. They just disagree with us Bernie supporters --- for the moment. Who knows what the future brings?
Some of them may turn out to be the biggest Bernie supporters of all. Life is always changing.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
143. Love it!
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 12:11 AM
Jul 2015

And a great lesson for here.

I think that will be my stock reply to snark. "Isn't it a lovely day? I hope we get some rain soon."

anniebelle

(900 posts)
146. A true Democrat supports the Party's elected nominee.
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 07:15 AM
Jul 2015

First of all, Nader did not run on the Democratic ticket. He screwed the Democrats by introducing a 3rd Party into that election! Secondly, it wasn't the progressives that lost that election ~ the black robes stole it ~ ended Democracy that very day. I have voted for Democrats all of my 70+ years. I will vote for the candidate that wins our primary. I remember all too well, Democrats voting for Reagan ~ even had that catchy little name "Reagan Democrats". Stand up for your candidate, but when the primary's over, remember the horrendous consequences of having ANY republican in the White House.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
157. You took the high road, that would have been hard for me
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 09:28 AM
Jul 2015

The nicest I could have been is to ask him if his dog got ran over by a car then watch him scratch his head as I walk away.

Autumn

(45,504 posts)
158. That's just what your friend was trying to do. You handled it just right.
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 09:39 AM
Jul 2015

Take for instance a message board, people do that on those too. Friends like that are toxic and your lovely day comment is just the perfect response. There is never a reason to go on with conversations like that. It just feeds their ego.

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