Is my understanding of the Greece situation correct?

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Bankers loaned lots of money to Greece.
2. Greece effectively gave most of the money to rich people, through reduced taxes and other scams.
3. The rich people claim they "earned" it, ain't giving it back to Greece.
4. Greece couldn't pay the loans back to the bankers.
5. The banks told their paid help in EU governments and the IMF to get them off the hook, by giving money to Greece to repay the bankers, then squeezing Greece to get the Proles to cough up the cash.
6. Proles behaved for a while, suffered like crazy
7. Proles realized that the more they behaved the more difficult it became to make payments because behaving meant eviscerating their economy.
8. Proles said "enough!"

Is this correct? Critiques are appreciated (if based on facts, of course).

[yallerdawg]

1. The sad thing is...

9. Proles still screwed. But at least they are screwed voluntarily and collectively.

Greece is now a fourth world country. NOT emerging economy.

They need to develop an entire new economic model, and will share the sacrifice.

The US and affluent European nations should get ready to help with humanitarian aid.

[jeff47]

7. Make sure to cut off the sentence early so you have a good strawman to torch. (nt)

[BillZBubb]

8. #2 is totally true, and if you don't get it, you need to do some research.

You give money to the wealthy by lowering their taxes while at the same time borrowing money to cover the country's expenses. This is right wing redistribution. Here we called it Reaganomics.

For someone to claim they don't understand this, or disagree with it is astounding.

[PETRUS]

22. What do you think "give" means?

Perhaps you have your own ideas about who has a claim to what (perhaps I do, too), but most of us have to accept the government as the final arbiter. If the law is changed so that you get a bigger piece of the pie, what would you call it?

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Would you feel better if I said "effectively gave" instead?

I'll do that.

[Ed Suspicious]

31. Give me a break.

[BillZBubb]

45. Check you dictionary. Reducing tax rates on the wealthy is GIVING.

Give has many definitions. At the least it is GIVING them tax "relief", if you want to use GOP propaganda points. The end result is they get more money than they would have had if the taxes weren't cut. That is, in reality, giving them money.

We say the Constitution gives us many rights. But the Declaration says those rights are natural and unalienable. By your definition, then, people are wrong to say the Constitution gives us rights.

If you want to parrot the republican line on tax cuts, that's fine. Don't expect many people to buy it though.

[Surya Gayatri]

50. 'Tis the mystery of 'liberal' discussionists...

"Why, OH WHY is it that as soon as it appears that a DU'er is not buying a particular line of reasoning or a specific argument, or has an opinion that differs from the applauding masses, so many members of this website automatically assume that person to be a republican or a troll or whatever?

Is it always so fucking black and white?"

[merrily]

54. Nitpicking word choice is not rejecting a line of reasoning.

Out of the mouth of one of the buffoonish characters in Hamlet came the advice, "Never miss an opportunity to relieve yourself." With DU's centrists, that becomes "Never miss an opportunity to bash liberals. If none exists, pretend it does and punch left anyway."

[Surya Gayatri]

57. Sorry, are you talking to me? Nitpicking? Where?

Bashing genuine 'liberals'? Where?

Personally, I make a distinction between the 'liberal' mentality and left-wing ideologues.

[merrily]

59. I am talking to you but you did not nitpick words

Personally, I make a distinction between the 'liberal' mentality and left-wing ideologues.

I'm sure you do make a distinction that is correct-in your own mind. Each of those terms is used in a highly subjective way on DU.

[Live and Learn]

58. It really is black and white.

The entire notion of money and how it is distributed is based upon societal agreement. If society disagrees with the monetary exchange then it will be changed by the government or through revolution. At least, historically.

[vlyons]

71. It's quite simple to understand

Let's say you pay $10,000 a year in taxes, which helps pay for roads, schools, libraries, police, firemen, retirement benefits, trash pick-up, parks, museums, military etc. Then your gov decides to cut your taxes by 50%, effectively letting you keep $5,000 that would otherwise have gone to taxes. Gov has "given" you $5,000. But because everyone else in your tax bracket also got a 50% cut in taxes, there is less money to pay for all the niceties of civilized society listed above. So all the people, who provide those services and benefits have to take a pay cut or get laid off. Which means there's less money circulating in the economy for food, clothes, housing, entertainment, education, healthcare, investment in expanding and creating new business. Now do you get it?

[Live and Learn]

72. +1 nt

[rhett o rick]

96. You put it quite well. nm

[merrily]

53. I should have read your post before I wrote my own.

[Live and Learn]

56. +1 nt

[merrily]

52. Be less literal. Manny condensed several steps down to one. Hence, he said "effectively."

Tax cuts leave people with more money than they would have had without the cut. The net result is that these people end up richer than they would have without the cut.

However, the nation has to keep operating. So it has to continue to spend money, but now has less income to cover its costs. So, either it has to raise taxes on other people or be unable to repay its debts. If anything, it's going to need to borrow more.

[The2ndWheel]

3. The question then is...

Why didn't #8 happen somewhere around #2? Because it worked until it didn't. Nobody ever really says "enough", until they're the ones paying for it.

It's probably a little more complicated than rich guy gets everything, little guy gets screwed. No doubt that's happening, but there's no way that's all it is.

[jwirr]

11. Either way you can remove the little guy from the picture until the end when the bill comes due.

The little guy was not invited to the table when the loans were being made nor did he have a say in the distribution of the money. But now they want him to be at the table alone to pay for the mess. 8. Enough.

[The2ndWheel]

18. Right, but only now is it enough

Was there any point from whenever all this started however many years ago, up to today, when this was going to work?

That's not picking on the Greek people, because every population works the same way. We can all see the problems. We know it's ultimately not going to work. But it's working, so nobody says enough, as we try and keep human imagination ahead of physical reality. Everyone just does what we do, and when the fan is about to be turned on, then everyone says enough. The shit grows though. It's really good fertilizer. It allows us to grow economically. We couldn't do that as much as we do without the shit.

Finite planet, limitless human imagination. One of those things won't win. We keep trying to manipulate these numbers that we created, and it gets more complicated all the time.

[Hoyt]

55. As I understand it, a lot of little guys didn't pay their taxes either.

Last edited Mon Jul 6, 2015, 05:16 AM - Edit history (1)

Again, as I understand it, Greece had been lax in a lot of ways that would have prevented this.

I don't think people voting to support loan defaults, or lax repayment terms, is going to play well. But it is satisfying to say "screw you" on the way down, I suppose.

[Surya Gayatri]

67. ^^^This!^^^

"Again, as I understand it, Greece had been lax in a lot of ways that would have prevented this."

I vote this the understatement of the day...

[LuckyLib]

93. Yes. Tax evasion has been an art in Greece,

particularly among the educated, moneyed, professional class. Folks were off the books. The only people the government could find to nail for taxes were municipal, regional or national employees who could be found through a paper trail. It became a national pastime, keeping away from the taxman.

[truebluegreen]

4. "Behaved for a while" was, like, 7 years

and economy isn't being, but rather has been eviscerated: economy contracted 25%, unemployment also at 25%, debt higher than when they started--banksters were still getting paid though and rich people were still rich so a little more austerity shouldn't hurt

[daleanime]

5. +1

[mimi85]

39. Annoying

just like ^^^this!^^^ is.

[daleanime]

41. Pardon me?

[merrily]

60. I think the poster simply posted in the wrong place.

How annoying could a +1 possible be?

[elehhhhna]

104. Yes. a friend moved back from Greece ~ 4 yrs ago

It was hell for the lowered class and elderly even then.

[jeff47]

6. Keep in mind the rich people were not necessarily Greek.

Greece (and Spain) had a real estate bubble from people buying vacation homes. A little like Florida.

Florida had the US federal government to bail them out and keep the money flowing. Spain didn't have some of Greece's other problems (failure at tax collection, really, really, really generous pensions, and a few others)

[merrily]

62. Good point. You can look at Greek real estate online from anywhere in the world and buy.

[Travis_0004]

9. Here is my summary

Greece committed Fraud to join the Eurozone: they lied about their finances to gain membership, and made promises they could not fulfill.

Greece borrowed lots of money at low interest rates

2008 hit. Greece was affected much worse than other countries in the Eurozone because they are poorer, and have more debt.

The unemployment rate was 28%. Worse than the US in the great depression.

If Greece had its own currency, it would print more drachmas. Doing so would make them worth less on the international market, which would make exporting goods cheaper, tourism cheaper, and imports more expensive (all for the most part good for Greece. It would also lower domestic interest rates, making investment easier, and service to debts cheaper.

Since Greece is in the Eurozone, they can not print money. The German dominated central bank has a monetary policy that works great for Germany, but not for Greece.

Greece has a debt load twice the US, but no ability to raise the money to pay it.

Greece is trying to negotiate with the troika (meaning trio:international monetary fund, Europe Central bank, European Commission)

Greece wants financial assistance, and they have been given loans in return for tax hikes and spending cuts.

Rich countries in the Euro zone want Greece to live with in its means, but Greece sees the cuts as hurting the economy. A lot of people in other European countries are upset that Greece is taking bailouts yet Greece has a retirement age of 57, other EU countries have a retirement age in the 60's for example.

The debt to Greece was held by private banks. The risk of default and crashing the economy of the EU was great, so that debt was bought up by European governments.

So the choices today is to accept the austerity, or to reject it. If they reject it, and aid is cut off, they are in worse shape and will have to leave the Euro to regain control of their own currency. Or maybe the troika will back down and renegotiate.

[truebluegreen]

12. You forgot something in your list of moral hazards:

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 09:42 PM - Edit history (1)

what about the lenders who knew it was BS and lent money anyway?--not unlike our banksters who pushed loans on people they knew could not pay them back, but collected their own fat commissions and skated? Or our banksters who resold morgage securities that they knew were toxic--even bet against them--and then collected from the taxpayers when their scheme went bust? Doesn't any of the Greek situation sound familiar?

And btw, the unemployment rate "was 28%", and after seven years of austerity, a cratered economy and even more debt is still 25%...what was that definition of insanity again?

ETA: and there's more:
The IMF released a report just a few days ago admitting what so many economists have already said, that Greece's debt is unsustainable and odious. The IMF had this report for months.
Just two days ago Wikileaks released a document from 2011 where German Chancellor Angela Merkel who told her personal assistant that Greece's debts would still be unsustainable under the terms of the new arrangement.

So basically the troika knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the crushing austerity they are forcing upon Greece is doomed to fail. Greece will never be able to pay these debts.
Yet neither the IMF, nor the ECB, nor the political leaders of Europe are willing to change course. Why?

The debt, in other words, isn't about money. It's about political control.
(my bold)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/26-Centuries-later-Athens-by-Daily-Kos-Debt_Debtor-Nation_Democracy_Greece-150705-780.html

[Live and Learn]

61. +1 nt

[merrily]

63. Good point. Does the term "subprime" morgage come to mind?

[BrotherIvan]

91. ^^^This This This

And lent them money to pay back banks in Germany, Belgium, France, basically getting them into predatory loans to pay back banks in their own country, a form of money laundering. They also forced arms sales onto them that Greece didn't even want but Germany profited from.

They fucking knew they were going to make Greece insolvent. It's Shock Doctrine 101. And it worked for all the countries who went through austerity. It was privatizing the profits and heaping the losses onto the public coffers. Just like in the US. It's the biggest swindle of all time in terms of amounts.

But it's those damn lazy Greeks!

[laundry_queen]

95. Yes, definitely Shock Doctrine at play here.

And the rich get richer...either way, Greece was going to be in big trouble, and you know who was ready and waiting to capitalize on it.

[BrotherIvan]

97. And not only will the rich get all the money

They will look on with blank faces as people have no food or medicine. They are, in fact, evil.

[jwirr]

15. Okay, I want to know what they were in debt for? Not how much but what they were asking the

money for? Starting with the Goldman Sachs loan? Were any of these loans absolutely necessary? Were they allowed to invest them the way they wanted or did the bankers tell them how to use them?

I guess I want to know why the banks gave them the money in the first place and if the loans were given even when they knew they could not be paid back? Was there collateral? I have watched how the banksters act here in the USA and read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine. How much of that is going on in this deal?

[marym625]

20. Lots of information

In the Greg Palast links I put in reply #14. Much, much more than I put it in the post

[LuvNewcastle]

10. I'm sick of this austerity bullshit.

I'm glad they said no to the banksters. Greece is a beautiful country with a rich history and wonderful people. I think tourists will want to go there, and if it's cheaper, I think many more will. They're going to make it through this as long as they continue to have courage and patience.

[Cleita]

17. Hell, I was considering spending the rest of my old age there until

this happened.

[scarletwoman]

13. The best explanation I've come across so far is this interview with political economist Mark Blyth,

from this week's On the Media program on NPR:

Arguably no country in Europe has struggled more than Greece in recovering from the financial crisis, nor been blamed as much for their own suffering. As the fate of the Syriza government and Greece's presence in the Eurozone hang in the balance, Bob talks to political economist Mark Blyth about what the media -- and the economists -- continually get wrong about the plight of the Hellenic Republic.

There's no transcript up yet, but you can listen to the interview here: http://www.onthemedia.org/story/perceived-tragedy-greece/

Bear in mind this was taped before today's vote, but I found it to be an excellent aid to understand how Greece got to where it is today - "No" vote and all.

[MannyGoldstein]

24. Thanks.

I'll listen when I can.

[merrily]

65. Thank you scarletwoman. I will bookmark this because I respect your opinion and knowledge very much

OT, but I hope jackpine's services were all he deserved.

[scarletwoman]

75. Hi merrily! I also highly recommend the Greg Palast links in marym625's post #14 in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6943028

It appears to me that there are quite a lot of erroneous assumptions going on in this thread - Palast's writings are an excellent corrective.

In answer to your "OT" about Jackpine's memorial - it was pretty amazing. I have been wanting to do an in-depth post about it, but somehow have not managed to do so yet. There have been so many other major issues happening for the past couple weeks, and I've been as caught up in them as everyone else. Still, I feel that it's something I need to do - so I will.

[merrily]

76. Thank you so much for the info about jackpine. I am sure many DUers will be very interested

in a post about the services. He is so well loved and respected here.

[marym625]

14. Just two words

Larry Summers

The Austerity Fairy Tale

My children often ask me, “Daddy, where does ‘austerity’ come from?”  And I tell them:

Once upon a time, there was a good fairy named John Maynard Keynes. He wanted to stop depressions, financial crises and suffering, so he conceived of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.  He said, When a nation’s foreign exchange earnings drop (say, if the price of oil rises or Greek tourism falls because its currency is over-valued), the countries taking the poor nations’ money, rich countries like Germany and the USA, would lend it back via the IMF.

By this rule, the rich lending to the poor, the world prospered and lived happily ever after … until the 1980s, when a wicked witch, known as the Iron Lady, and America’s gaga grandpa, Reagan of the Rich, insisted that the IMF and the World Bank beat poor nations with a stick called, “structural adjustment.”

Nations facing destitution because of higher oil costs, currency imbalance or predatory interest rate demands were “structurally adjusted.”  Structural adjustment is a cruel and debilitating potion of mass firings of public employees, cheap sell-offs of national assets and deregulation of corporate profiteering.  This ripping the wings off the better angels of government is called, “austerity.”

The good fairy Keynes had warned about this evil potion, this snake oil called “austerity.”  Cutting government spending during a recession, he said, will only make things worse. 

And that’s what happened:  In every single case, the “adjusted” nations’ economies were devastated. 

Structural adjustment reached its cruel apotheosis in the early 1990s under the guidance of the World Bank’s Chief Economist, one Larry Summers.

The Golden Dawn Murder Case 
Larry Summers and the New FascismGreg Palast

Here's what we're told: Greece's economy blew apart because a bunch of olive-spitting, ouzo-guzzling, lazy-ass Greeks refuse to put in a full day's work, retire while they're still teenagers, pocket pensions fit for a pasha; and they've gone on a social-services spending spree using borrowed money. Now that the bill has come due and the Greeks have to pay with higher taxes and cuts in their big fat welfare state, they run riot, screaming in the streets, busting windows and burning banks.

I don't buy it.  I don't buy it because of the document in my hand marked, "RESTRICTED DISTRIBUTION."

Lazy Ouzo-Swilling, Olive-Pit Spitting Greeks
Or, How Goldman Sacked GreeceGreg Palast

And much more:
Greece: What they don’t want you to know
More Greg Palast

[MannyGoldstein]

26. Larry Summers should be dropped into a Brazilian slum

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 11:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Wearing rags with no ID.

That might help him understand the world a bit better.

[marym625]

29. He's the scum of the earth

Who threatened Elizabeth Warren, and is a trusted adviser to Hillary Clinton

[merrily]

66. We need more slum locales. Rubin, Goolsbee, Sperling--every one of the DLC/Third Way lot.

Fucking flim flam artists, giving cover.

[scarletwoman]

32. Thank you for those links! Greg Palast is a treasure!

Goldman Sachs and all their appendages need to be utterly destroyed for the sake of our planet and its people.

[marym625]

34. agree on all counts! eom

[RiffRandell]

46. He is.

Loved him when I read his book about the 2000 stolen election, which mainly focused on how Bushco purged the voters from Texas to Florida.

[marym625]

81. I have put this out there before

But I just love it so much, I'll share it again!




In case you can't read this, it says, "To my Mary, Greg Palast"

[RiffRandell]

105. Very cool!

Thanks for sharing!

[marym625]

106. Thanks!

I love it. I have no problem bragging about it either!

[Live and Learn]

64. +1 Great Links, thanks. nt

[former9thward]

16. 1-6 of your points are wrong but I think you know that.

European taxpayers loaned a lot of money to Greece. Greece used it to set up a pension and benefit system far above the rest of Europe. Greeks, rich, poor and in between evade taxes. Their economy is finished now because the northern European nations are not going to subsidize it any longer. They voted. It is their choice.

[Surya Gayatri]

51. Have rarely read a more succinct and accurate summary of the situation...

[BrotherIvan]

92. And wrong

[PSPS]

21. The fact is that almost all of the money lent to Greece was used to pay back the bankers' loans.

In other words, this is a manufactured crisis just to keep the almighty bankers from having to take a haircut.

Here's a 9-minute piece from a viewpoint not beholden to the banks:

http://www.onthemedia.org/story/perceived-tragedy-greece/

[PoliticAverse]

77. Sorry but his claim that tax-evasion in the US is as bad as in Greece is simply wrong.

Also if you blame the organizations that lent Greece money for being stupid for doing so
then I guess it would be stupid to lend them any more.

[Adrahil]

25. Greece did have some very expensive habits

It have a very low retirement age and very generous pensions, which would be OK, but it created massive tax loopholes for the rich, and even the middle class routinely evaded paying taxes. I read somewhere that it was estimate that nearly 40% of Greek tax revenue went uncollected, and corruption was rampant in the government, leading to massive fraudulent government payouts

[Warpy]

27. #2 is a little more complicated

The right wing leaders were lavishly persuaded, if not bribed, into ordering things like military hardware and infrastructure projects that mostly benefited rich people in a few small areas. For instance, they bought six submarines from France and that's the tip of a very large MIC iceberg. They didn't just get money from Germany and Goldman-Sachs and hand it to the rich, they got trinkets for it that didn't do the average Greek any good, at all, but helped the rich sleep better at night.

#3 is more like a lax tax code with poor enforcement enabling the rich to skate on taxes.

The rest of it is spot on.

[sendero]

28. There are two points of view here..

.... and if you are on the side of the bankster scams, you are a fucking idiot and it sucks to be you. Moron. Bend over douche.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

33. 9. Wanna bet they would let all of this slide if they had a right-wing government?

[jtuck004]

36. _We_ did. n/t

Last edited Mon Jul 6, 2015, 12:31 AM - Edit history (1)

[cstanleytech]

35. #2 and #3 Wasnt the cause of the current problem but it did certainly didnt help.

Its kinda like denying water to a person with diarrhea, its going to make things worse but the denial of water isnt what caused the diarrhea.

[kelliekat44]

37. Just about sums it up. Rich refused to pay taxes, gov't refused to collect taxes..their own

austerity. The rich ran away with the money, refused to invest, refused decent paying jobs especially to immigrants. Actually spread hate of their own government. Sound familiar?

[magical thyme]

38. the 2008 crisis brought Greece to its knees

The 2008 crisis hurt everybody, Greece included. It was after that it couldn't pay back its loans. By 2010 it needed help.

step 5. The IMF looked at the situ and stated that a bailout package had to include debt restructuring to be successful. The Troika refused to restructure the debt, instead forcing deep cuts in government spending in exchange for bailout loans. That strangled the Greek economy.

The Troika has known for 5 years that it's austerity program was doomed from the start. It not only refused to restructure the debt as the IMF has stated was necessary, it *hid* the report. It was only leaked last week or so.

The Troika designed the program with the intention of destroying Greece's economy. It was deliberate. It was the shock doctrine in practice.

[pansypoo53219]

40. no. NPR's on the media has a good segment about greece. most of the money went to.......

CREDITORS! the banisters! the profit pigs! wall streat!

[dflprincess]

42. You did leave out the part about Greece saying Germany still owes it

reparations from WWII and Germany says it doesn't owe them anything.

The matter seems open to debate.

[MannyGoldstein]

43. I think they were trying to make a point

And I think it is an excellent point.

[dflprincess]

44. There's a whole thread on the topic that I just stumbled on

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026942920

(I do like post #6 in it - with the John Cleese picture)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026942920#post6

[merrily]

68. Please. This is a Greece-bashing thread, not a Germany-bashing thread. Get with the program.

[dflprincess]

98. Oh damn

some days I just can't keep track of where a thread is going.

[merrily]

99. Always happy to help.

[Aerows]

48. And now the rich are crying

because they might have to fork over the money they owe to pay for the services they benefited from while not paying for them.

Because little people are supposed to pay for those things, not the wealthy. My goodness, they might actually have a tax increase, see a reduction in their bank accounts and it won't amount to diddly because they have more money than they can spend in a lifetime, anyway.

But apparently, it's the principle of the thing, not having to do their part because ... well they shouldn't. Or something like that. Entitled to not having to do their part.

[hill2016]

49. you left out a few important facts

(1) Most of the debt owed to the private sector has been written down in previous bailouts.
(2) It's not just the rich but most of Greece tries to avoid paying taxes. Greece has a very large underground economy.
(3) Greece has a more generous pension system than other European neighbors.

Hence by your argument, Greece effectively gave most of the money to its rich and middle class people through reduced taxes and unsustainable welfare (meaning insufficient revenues to cover).

[Live and Learn]

73. Hence by your argument, the pensions are responsible?

Please provide a reasonable argument to defend such a position. Exactly what percentage of the Greek economy goes to pensions?

Do you not realize that Greek pensions have already taken a significant hit? How much do you think the poor and elderly should give up while the rich and bankers give nothing? Would starving be enough for you? Or do you suggest they attempt going back to work in a society that has a 25% unemployment rate already?

I won't be surprised if you suggest that the unemployment rate is attributable to the elderly and young that are too lazy to work. But if you'd like to learn the truth, try this:


http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2015/06/18/greek-pensions-have-been-cut-but-creditors-want-more/

[1939]

84. Also bloated public payroll

During the time between the overthrow of the Greek military junta and the election of the current government, there was a real rivalry between a center-right and center-left party with control of the government passing back and forth between them. To shore up their support, each party, while in power, created large numbers of patronage government jobs. Greece has one of the highest government employee to population ratio in the world (all with quick and easy retirement vesting at a relatively young age).

[reorg]

88. or maybe that's just one of those myths

Greece has one of the lowest rates of public employment among OECD countries, with general government employing just 7.9% of the total labour force in 2008. This is a slight increase from 2000, when the rate was 6.8%. Across the OECD area, the share of government employment ranges from 6.7% to 29.3%, with an average of 15%.

The Greek government has plans to further decrease this share, by replacing only 20% of staff leaving on retirement. Public employment is also highly centralised in Greece, with over 80% of staff working at the central government level.

https://www.oecd.org/greece/48214177.pdf

[MattSh]

69. Greece vs. Germany

Kudos to the folks at the Weekend Economist (here on DU), especially Demeter.

















More charts and the story here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/03/why-greece-and-germany-just-dont-get-along-in-15-charts/

[Live and Learn]

74. +1 Thanks for the info and link. nt

[merrily]

70. Thanks for this thread. I don't know the answer to your question, but I intend to learn more.

This thread contains some wildly diverging views about what caused the crisis. One view seems to be shared by most, but not all, of the center right posters. The rest of the center right posters and the liberals seem to have a very different view. I want to know where the facts are.

[B Calm]

78. Proles are a George Orwell description of working class?

[Art_from_Ark]

100. "Proles" = short for "proletariat"

[MrMickeysMom]

79. Something like that, Manny...

Greece can devalue their own money and in step with what FDR did to guarantee returning money after runs on the banks), emulate, "The only thing we have to fear is…. FEAR ITSELF." They are following the example of Iceland (though the economies are based differently), who ALMOST joined the European Union.

They will be on the path to getting out from under the banksters who caused this mess.

The Proles will be better off in the long term, and so others… who WILL consider the same action against this ongoing financial terrorism of those like Jamie Dimon, and his ilk of Wall Street.

However, I'm puzzled by the step down of the financial minister, Yanis Varoufakis… For what purpose is that move?

[TBF]

80. That about sums it up -

with the caveat that you know getting out of this mess, however they end up doing, will mean more suffering for the proles while the rich do their thing.

Solidarity with our sisters and brothers in Greece.

[brooklynite]

82. Manny, I think you left a couple items out...

8. Proles said "enough!"
9. ECB stops giving Greece bailout money
10. Greek banks run out of cash for depositors (nb - the proles)
11. Greece is unable to / refuses to pay debts
12. Greece drops out of Eurozone
13. Weak Greek economy can't support value of new Drachma
14. Greek Government can't afford spending on pensions and social safety net

I think that covers it...

(nb - my wife, an international tax lawyer, pointed out that the Iceland and Ireland recoveries were possible because they had bad banks but good economies. Greece has neither.)

[MannyGoldstein]

85. 15. Proles cozy up to Putin

If you think that Proles will just sit around while being vivisected by the Predator Class...

[brooklynite]

87. What does Russia get out of the deal?

[MannyGoldstein]

89. Potentially a vassal in NATO, ports,

all kinds of goodies.

[questionseverything]

90. kinda amazes me that conservatives do not realize

they seem to be forcing greece to change their alliances from europe to china/russia

[MattSh]

103. What amazes me more...

is that people in (fill in the country name here) think they will get a better deal from the USA/IMF/NATO/World Bank/EU.

And I wonder what century those people are living in?

[Octafish]

83. Don't forget Goldman-Sachs!

Vampire Squid squeezed democracy out of its homeland to turn a buck off austerity economic trickle down ripoff crapola.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Greek-Depression-the-by-William-K-Black--Austerity_Austerity_Austerity_Bailout-141231-49.html

[MannyGoldstein]

86. There's nothing that the Vampire Squid doesn't have its beak jammed in. nt

[hifiguy]

94. I'd only add one thing.

The banksters also sold a lot of worthless securities to Greece. And probably loaned them the mon, at usurious rates, while convincing the Greeks that they were AAA grade investmens.

Scratch a banker, find a Ferengi.

[Aerows]

101. Look upthread

half of us were called every name in the book because we saw exactly what was happening.

I mean, really, telling me that I drink the tears of children or some-such because I know exactly why Greece chose these measures?

Same old crap.

[merrily]

102. Yup. England, Greece, Portugal and others, all victims of Clinton era deregulation.

Repeal of Glass Steagall, aka Gramm, Leach, Bliley, aka Financial Services Modernization Act and Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

Sanders voted against the former. He voted for House Bill of the latter, but before the Senate compromise that put in the bad stuff.