Go, Greece! A run on the banks is in progress in Greece.

[Zalatix]

Last edited Thu May 17, 2012, 08:59 PM - Edit history (1)

The plutocracy will take a whale of a hit from this. Combined with the rise of the barter economy this could completely destroy their power in Greece.

Edited to add: Greece is in for some very hard times. But they won't be nearly as hard as a life of permanent serfdom under Germany's austerity plans. Hopefully this will mean Greece will drop the Euro, and inflate away their debt like SEVERAL other nations have successfully done in the past - such as the United States after World War II. They could also look to Iceland or Argentina for other solutions.

Whatever you do, Greece, DO NOT SURRENDER TO AUSTERITY. It's a dark hole of total ruin that you'll never get out of.

http://news.yahoo.com/run-greek-banks-looks-180100901.html

Is This What a Run on Greek Banks Looks Like?

Zero Hedge blogger Tyler Durden fears the worst as he passes along pictures of ATM lines in Greece. "A Greek banking system which is now virtually shut out of any extrenal funding except for the ELA, where it has a few billions euros in access left, will be unable to deal with hundreds of millions in deposit outflows," he writes. "This may be the beginning of the end for Greece, just as Buiter and later JPM warned over the weekend." Similarly, Z6Mag editor Allan Soldner says the withdrawals this week show the first sings of a run, noting yesterday that the Dow, S&P and Nasdaq all ended down, along with the precious metals market. "ATM lines are often the hysteria that starts the ball rolling even worse in any bank run because people walking by start asking if they should be doing the same."

[southernyankeebelle]

1. This is so sad for the people. It isn't right that politicans got them in this mess.

[demosincebirth]

3. We're not nearly as bad, but just like here...we/they voted them in.

[southernyankeebelle]

10. They lie like hell and take big money and the people get screwed. I sure hope our Politicans are

paying attention because of Mittens wins the middle and lower middle class and poor will be screwed.

[Zorra]

111. Let's not forget the bankster's role in this.

Gotta give discredit where discredit is due, after all.

[southernyankeebelle]

114. Yes am disappointed that Obama hasn't done anything to really stop what is going on.

[Initech]

112. The politicians are favored by the billionaire criminals that really run things.

It's the same everywhere you go - the oil billionaires and stock market criminals screw us over and rob us blind while they laugh all the way to the bank. And then they use that money to buy über corrupt politicians to make what they're doing legal so they can continue robbing us blind. It's the same everywhere - it happened in Egypt, it's happening in the middle east, it's happening in Greece, it's happening in Wisconsin even. Although the Wisconsin debacle is just a blueprint for what those scumfucks want to do all over the country.

[southernyankeebelle]

113. Yes I got a call wanting a donation for dems. I gave him a piece of my mind.

I asked why the DNC hasn't been helping in WI? Of course I got the lip service. I told him both parties are screwing us it is just the matter of picking the least to screw us over. I told him am tired of the dems not really stepping up for us and I was tired that Obama was a disappointment. I told him I would be voting for Obama because the thought of Mittens was to much to bare. But I let him know the dems are just feeding at the same trought as the republicans and people who are living at the other end of the bread line are having problems and they better start addressing them.

[uponit7771]

2. NICE!! Make the rich pay their fair share and even more....but just not just fair

[Honeycombe8]

4. A run on the banks is what caused the Great Depression here.

Unregulated business caused the stock market crash. THAT'S what hurts wealthy people. But then everyone started pulling their $ out of the banks, and that sunk the economy of the country. That's why we now have the FDIC, insurance so people won't pull their $ out in an economic downturn, harming the economy even more.

I don't know what the setup is in Greece, but if they don't have something like the FDIC, I can understand pulling their $ out. It's not safe in the banks there.

[FirstLight]

5. question

even with the FDIC, if we had a run on banks here...wouldn't it still cripple the economy? the govt can only print so much money, right?

[Zalatix]

11. Yes, it would result in hyperinflation. The rich REALLY get soaked then.

When money becomes worthless, the working class gains enormous power over the Plutocracy.

The Plutocracy's life blood is money. Make that worthless and they've got nothing to pay the police gangs, no means of defending themselves, no means of stopping a real worker's revolution.

[dionysus]

17. the rich will survive just fine. the poor will starve. yay! we won!1!!1!

[Zalatix]

20. The rich would not survive when their money is utterly worthless.

The winners in that case would be everyone with a garden or a farm, not the ultra wealthy.

[Maine23]

25. Those farms will be guarded compounds for the rich who owns them...

Who do you think owns most of the land?

[Zalatix]

28. Uh, how would the rich enforce their ownership of said farmland?

What are they going to pay the police thugs with to enforce it?

What's to stop the farmers from declaring the Plutocrats useless and kicking them off the land? The farmers make the food, they can pay the troops in food. What can the Plutocrats pay the troops when money is worthless?

[Javaman]

46. the smart rich will have divested a long while ago.

I suspect a fiefdom of sorts to pop up in parts of the country.

in the mean time, the people will starve in the city. Sure a black market is running full tilt at the moment. They charge huge fees to make money off of peoples desperation.

Those in the country side are living via a barton system.

While I cheer for the Greek government to be held responsible, I do not cheer for the poverty of the Greek people. A run on the banks is a very terrifying thing.

in the mean time, no one bothers to hold the EU responsible for allowing Greece to enter the EU with their creative accounting and cooked books.

[Zalatix]

56. A run on the banks is a terrifying thing, but not as terrifying as Germany's austerity plan.

The rich really WILL own the farms under Germany's plan. And fiefdoms are guaranteed under that scenario, too.

The EU will take a $1 Trillion hit if Greece leaves the Euro chaotically. Germany will lose a huge portion of that.

Greece's way out is to do what Argentina did.

[Javaman]

78. which is fine...

but your posts, and I'm not saying you feel this way, come across as someone that cares little for the people and poor of Greece. That's my point.

[Zalatix]

94. Since few people are clear on where I stand, see the updated OP.

[hack89]

101. Argentina took out (and re-payed) a $12 billion loan from the IMF

and consented to IMF imposed conditions. How does that differ from the Greek bailout.

[aquart]

86. How will they pay the guards?

[dionysus]

26. they own the land, and they'll shelter their money. you're being naive.

[Zalatix]

30. And how will they enforce their ownership when the money is rendered worthless?

What will they pay the police thugs with when the farmers tell them to get lost?

[dionysus]

31. other currencies?

[Zalatix]

32. To pay the police with? Good luck with that!

If I am a farmer I will pit my vegetable crop against your German Mark in a hyperinflationary situation.

I'll make that bet in a heartbeat.

[dionysus]

33. you can buy a lot of private security with US dollars. jesus christ

indeed

[Zalatix]

35. Like I said, good luck with that. When the farmers go on strike the Plutocrats can eat US dollars!

[dionysus]

36. enjoy that fantasy.

[Zalatix]

38. The rich surviving hyperinflation? Now THAT is a fantasy.

[LanternWaste]

59. I don't think the rich need to worry about hyperinflation, as they can (and have) indeed, stopped it

I don't think the rich need to worry about hyperinflation, as they can (and have) indeed, stopped it.

In his book, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, John Maynard Keynes described that it was specifically two monied groups, the industrialists and the Prussian large bloc land-owners who pressured (via the mechanism of economic and industrial leverage) the various governments of the Weimar Republic to establish the Rentenmark to better assist in stabilizing, and then reducing, the hyper inflationary activities of the economy. A stabilization and reduction in spite of the French occupation of the Ruhr and the continuing payments of reparations.

If that is indeed the case, concern with surviving hyperinflation becomes moot if one has the means to prevent it from happening.

[Zalatix]

64. Stopping it from happening is more plausible.

[LeftishBrit]

91. The most extreme example of hyperinflation was Germany after WW1

and while this was not the only aspect of their economic ruin, we know what their economic ruin led to.

Not something we want to see.

And yes, the rich can survive hyperinflation by investing their money abroad or in property. Ordinary pensioners would be the ones to suffer the most from hyperinflation.

In fact, I don't this sort of hyperinflation is likely to happen in any case. Other economic disasters may; but I think there are nowadays sufficient safeguards against this particular one.

[LeftishBrit]

89. The ultra wealthy are the very ones most likely to own gardens and farms!

And other forms of property. And are very likely to have already transferred much of their money abroad.

What I hope happens is that Greece gets a stable, left-dominated government that is committed to economic justice and equality. If they can stay in the EU that way, great; if not, then it would be better to try to go it alone (some successful Europaean countries are not EU members) than to accept total economic collapse.

But economic ruin should not be desired; it would destroy the poor, the middle class, the ill, the young, the old, everyone BUT the ultra-rich, who at worst might have to temporarily relocate with their money.

[Zalatix]

97. They'd be vulnerable to having their land seized in that kind of chaos.

And if they leave? GREAT! Let's hope Greece never lets them come back.

An economic run, by the way, would be far better than slavery and serfdom under Germany's austerity plan. With collapse comes rebuilding; with Germany's austerity plan you can never really rebuild back to an equitable society. Have you thought about what happens under that austerity plan?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

109. Greece can't feed itself. What would seizing someone's estate solve?

They get to starve in the dark on marble floors.

[Honeycombe8]

21. I don't know. But unless you have more than $150k, there's no reason to pull your $ out.

I think that's the FDIC limit.

The FDIC would not be able to pay all that ins., though, if the banks failed. Which is why the govt bailed out the banks. They are too large to fail. Which is an argument for banks not getting too large, and there being more of them. Less likely for all of them to fail, as opposed to a few huge banks.

[coalition_unwilling]

107. Technicality, but current FDIC limit is $250K - n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

61. FDIC is almost broke, actually. Can't cover all banks at all.

Couple years ago FDIC was complaining that banks were not paying into the FDIC insurance fund
and
it was also revealed that FDIC was paying the failed banks the FULL stated price of debts, not the mark to market price, which is another reason FDIC has insufficient funds.
Sorry I do not have a link at hand, but I assure you I was reading about it at the time very closely, out of concern for my own bank acccount.

[n2doc]

52. The issue here isn't insurance, but devaluation

If you thought that the money in your bank account would, suddenly, be converted to another less valuable currency, wouldn't you rush to get it out of there first?

[dixiegrrrrl]

63. Exactly.

altho if money were going to be devalued ( officially , that is..it is already being devalued every time prices rise)
anyhow, it would not matter if the money were in a bank or my mattress, it would still be worth less.
Now, if I could take my current spare change and buy coins, esp. pre 1982 nickles, THEY would increase in value ovr time because they are made of metal and metal prices are going up.
Or if I took by currently already damn near worthless dollars and bought things that would be needed in the near future and which would clearly be more valuable....

[Art_from_Ark]

95. I think you mean pre-1982 pennies

Most pennies minted from 1864 to 1981 (and including part of 1982) were made of a 95% copper (bronze) alloy, and the metal in each coin is now worth more than its face value. Copper-plated zinc replaced the bronze alloy in 1982, and has been in use ever since.

On the other hand, with the exception of 1943-45 (and part of 1942), the composition of the US 5-cent coin containing nickel has remained unchanged since 1866.

[coalition_unwilling]

106. A run on the banks in the early 30s did not cause the Great Depression here. Simply

because two events (run on banks and Great Depression) occur at roughly the same time does not mean necessarily that one 'causes' the other.

The principal cause of the GD was capitalism's tendency when unregulated to over-produce goods and services for which exists an insufficient aggregate demand. Some economists have also argued that the GD was caused by the FED shrinking the money supply (essentially by raising short-term interest rates) at the very time it should have been expanding the money supply.

The bank runs caused a broad loss of confidence in the banking system but that's not the same thing as the GD, by any means.

[NYC_SKP]

6. OMG "Tyler Durden"!

I remember nuking a DU member with that handle!

[KansDem]

7. Well, now you know where he went!

[dionysus]

16. YOU nuked Tyler?!?!?

[NYC_SKP]

19. "we" nuked him...

With a few exceptions, nukes were performed only after days and days of deliberation and consensus seeking!

Except for a few instances in which our hand slipped and hit the nuke button, or we got a-scared!

[dionysus]

27. damn i hope you guys threw out your file on me...

[cthulu2016]

58. Tyler Durden is the guy in Fight Club

Brad Pitt, in the movie.

Probably a common screen-name

[PoliticAverse]

8. People are rushing to get Euros out of the banks in anticipation that Greece will be returning

Last edited Wed May 16, 2012, 10:35 PM - Edit history (1)

to their own currency in which case they will likely have their Euros replaced with something
worth significantly less.

[bhikkhu]

9. I suspect "the plutocracy" banks elsewhere. n/t

[Zalatix]

12. They may also be forced to reside elsewhere.

[glinda]

13. if only we could herd all of the troublemakers onto one small island...

[Zalatix]

14. Then declare them terrorists. LOL.

[glinda]

45. +1

[dionysus]

15. you're cheering on a whole lot of misery coming up. foolish.

[girl gone mad]

41. No. This is the beginning of the end of a whole lot of misery.

Doomed currency projects are doomed and should not be held together by forcing the people to look down the barrel of a shotgun for decades.

Once the ECB refused to act responsibly, it was time to end the madness. I hope real democracy is restored and the neoliberals are sent packing. Our neolibs should take note, too.

[Javaman]

47. from one misery to another.

extract yourself from the general terms and think about how the average Greek citizen is going to feed themselves.

[girl gone mad]

73. They are already one step ahead of you.

The BBC has reported a fascinating story of short food supply chains booming in Greece’s economic depression. Called the ‘Potato Revolution’, farmers and consumers are organising to cut out the middleman and slash prices of basic foodstuffs, starting with potatoes and moving on to rice, flour and olive oil.

The BBC story can be read here and there’s also a video here (but it may not be accessible outside the UK).

This new movement started in the north of Greece, and is now catching on in Athens. I would really like to hear what others working on urban food systems and alternative food networks make of this.

It seems to me that this is a four-way reconfiguration of food provisioning in the country worst hit by the Eurozone crisis. Consumers are creating demand, producers are stepping in with supply, and local authorities, no doubt mindful of the political implications of food prices in economic crisis, are now playing a coordinating role. As for the supermarkets, they’re being forced to slash their prices as they’re being drastically undercut.

http://purefoodlinks.eu/2012/03/the-greek-potato-revolution-flash-in-the-pan-or-long-term-supply-chain-reconfiguration

If monetary sovereignty is restored in Greece, the government will be better able to provide for the basic food needs of its citizens, which are in too many cases not being met right now.

[Taverner]

18. This has all the ingredients for an anarcho-mutualist uprising

Which is a good thing, IMO

[Maine23]

23. A anarcho-mutualist uprising is not much better then a fascist uprising...

Once the dust clears you might not like what you have.

[Zalatix]

24. It's better than a Plutonomy.

A plutonomy is anarchy and chaos for the 99% and peace and quiet for the 1%.

[Taverner]

50. It's an opportunity, but it could also be a curse

It all depends what you do with it

[FarCenter]

57. Followed by either a facist dictatorship or a dictator of the proletariat, depending.

[WillyT]

22. Well... Have You Seen This ???

Greece forms emergency government amid banking fears
By Anthony Faiola and Michael Birnbaum - WaPo
Wednesday, May 16, 7:11 PM

<snip>

ATHENS — With Greece’s future in the euro increasingly in doubt, this troubled nation cobbled together an emergency government Wednesday and set a date for new elections amid fears that accelerated withdrawals by spooked depositors could escalate into a run on the banks.

Greek banking officials said the pace of withdrawals slowed Wednesday, a day after President Karolos Papoulias — the ceremonial head of state — conceded that almost $1 billion worth of deposits had been withdrawn or converted into safe-haven German bonds in recent days.

<snip>

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/greece-forms-emergency-government-amid-banking-fears/2012/05/16/gIQAUdacTU_story.html

[Zalatix]

29. Damage control. It'll fail just like it has before.

[aquart]

88. Germany's getting all the flight capital? Bloody hell!

But doesn't this strengthen Germany's hand in dictating terms?

[blue neen]

34. Are you actually cheering for misery for the people of Greece?

That's messed up.

[Zalatix]

37. There's even more grief for the people of Greece if they let austerity win.

[blue neen]

42. So, that makes it okay to cheerlead in your OP for their misery now?

I believe their could be much better ways to state displeasure with the worldwide ALEC austerity venture.

The little people always suffer. I can't cheer for that.

[Zalatix]

43. Austerity is a cancer upon Greece. What is going on now is chemotherapy.

[Javaman]

48. That is a really horrible analogy.

I'm betting you have never been through chemo.

The problem is basic, the EU let Greece in to the union when both parties know full well that Greece's accounting was incredibly flawed and crooked. Now the people are paying for their stupidity.

I can not cheer for the people that will die of starvation, the people will no longer be able to afford their meds and die and I certainly can not gloat over the stupidity of governments allow their citizens to die.

There is zero to be happy about in all of this.

both sides have acted irresponsibly and as a result the people suffer.

[Zalatix]

55. Seriously, you need some perspective here.

Greece could in fact use these events to force a major crisis and come out of it like Argentina did. If they surrender to austerity, however, they will never be a free people again. PLUS they will also face mass starvation.

[Javaman]

72. I have plenty of perspective., thank you...

you seem to believe the old addage of "the end justifies the means".

Tell that to the Greek people who will soon be starving unless something is done.

Don't care one whit about the Greek government, the EU and all their bullshit, but I do care first and foremost for the welfare of the Greek people.

When two elephants fight only the grass suffers.

[girl gone mad]

74. Greek people are already starving...

not because of any lack of food, but because of a lack of money.

Cluephone to the people who believe everything is just peachy in Greece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/greeces-depression-could-prove-worst-in-modern-history/2012/02/15/gIQApNimFR_blog.html

OMG, even Ezra Klein managed to get the story right.

[Javaman]

75. Where did I say everything was just "peachy"?

it's really not all that polite to put words in peoples mouths.

Yes, I'm aware they are starving, I'm aware that there is a massive black market, I'm aware that the suicide rate has tripled and I'm aware that there is a thriving barter system.

I'm also aware that elderly aren't able to get their meds, handicap people aren't able to get their meds and the hospitals are running short of supplies.

Anything else I'm not clueless about?

[girl gone mad]

82. And yet you cheer for more austerity?

Exactly how bad does it need to get?

[Javaman]

84. So now instead of calling me clueless you put words in my mouth...

and you are flat out lying.

where did I say that, show me one post where I actually say that I want austerity. However, you search my name and posts you will that I am against austerity.

really, has this thread come to this level of halfwittery?

I'm for the people, I could give a rats ass about the EU and the Greek government. Frankly, they are tools made from the same mold.

EU being crooked and the Greek government cooking their accounting books to be accepted into the EU.

All the while no one give a shit about the Greek people. Anyone paying the very least bit of attention 2 years ago knew then, what we are witnessing now was going to happen, yet no one put in any safe guards to prevent it. Now the people of Greece (and soon to be Spain and then Italy) are left holding the bag.

Take a gigantic step back. Look what you wrote then get back to me.

This is a heated thread that is bringing the most unattractive aspects in people. I want the Greek people to live and eat. That's my argument.

[girl gone mad]

90. Greece did not cook its books to gain entry into the EU.

I think you've made this false assertion before because you are confusing something that happened years later when Greek politicians colluded with Goldman Sachs.

Austerity is killing Greece and the policies they are now living under will never succeed.

[Javaman]

103. Here...

Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all

The Greek Accounting Tragedy
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmurphy/2011/06/20/the-greek-accounting-tragedy/

Creative accounting in small advancing countries: The Greek case
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=868692&show=html

How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

Greek ‘reprofiling’ and Orwellian accounting
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/06/02/583031/greek-reprofiling-and-orwellian-accounting/

Greece not alone in exploiting EU accounting flaws
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/22/us-derivatives-europe-bankers-analysis-idUSTRE61L3EB20100222

You seem to have this inability to grasp the idea that while I'm against austerity, I'm also against a crooked system. It's as if you purposely refuse to read my posts.

Look, we're done. You're not going to win and I have no want to "win" this arguement. My point from the beginning is this, regardless of the situation, how it started, how it continues to unfold and how it ends, the people of Greece will suffer and suffer badly. The international community seems to be turning a blind eye to the problems of the average Greek citizen while they all get wrapped up in their profit margins and how much they will lose, gain or otherwise. As I stated to someone else in this thread, I don't give a rats ass about the EU or the Greek Government, I care about how the people of Greece are going to feed themselves. That has been my point all along and I have not once wavered from that. If you want to argue semantics, be my guest, but it's a never ending case of beating your head against the wall while people in Greece starve.

[Dreamer Tatum]

51. Sorry to break it to you, but Greece is getting austerity no matter what.

Unless they acquire a taste for human flesh, anyway.

[sufrommich]

60. Austerity is a given at this point,it won't just be the rich who suffer.

What a ridiculous OP.

[Zalatix]

66. What a ridiculous argument. The people are going to suffer regardless.

This puts the rich's skin in the game.

The other option is austerity. That keeps their skin OUT of the game.

Do you get it yet?

[sufrommich]

80. The rich buy airplane tickets when the going gets tough.

They won't have any skin in this game.

[Zalatix]

93. You mean they'll LEAVE? And hopefully never come back?

Is that why Argentina, Iceland and the United States after World War II recovered so fast? (Hint: Greece could revert to a sovereign currency and do like them: inflate away their debt.)

[Art_from_Ark]

98. The US recovered so fast after World War II because

a) there was no damage inflicted on US manufacturing or public infrastructure during the war, and 2) people had saved up a considerable amount of money during the war years with relatively little to spend it on due to rationing, but once rationing was lifted after the war, there was huge demand for a wide variety of consumer goods.

[dionysus]

39. he's too naive to comprehend what he's cheering for. i think he means well.

[Zalatix]

40. You're too naive to understand that things will actually be WORSE if austerity wins.

[dionysus]

44. i'm not saying austerity will win, or should win. what i object to, is that you're treating this

like a spectator sport where you're all hyped up that people might score a point against the rich people, like it's a game.
there's going to be a lot of misery, pain, maybe even some violence and death. like the clowns who were cheering for OUR economic system to collapse a few years ago. you're cheerleading for a disaster, in essense.

[Javaman]

49. +1000 nt

[Zalatix]

54. A game? I haven't portrayed it as anything of the sort.

I'm cheerleading for Greece to undergo a long overdue chemotherapy to get rid of the cancer that is their Plutocracy.

You will never defeat the Plutocrats except by destroying their life blood - that being money.

Greece is headed for far worse than hyperinflation if they let Germany and the banking elite force their brand of austerity upon them. They will be permanently reduced to serfs, for starters.

[dionysus]

85. You're cheerleading an impending Great Depression for Greece. it's exactly what you're doing.

i'll keave you to it now.

[girl gone mad]

77. "there's going to be a lot of misery, pain, maybe even some violence and death"

Oh good god. All of those conditions have already existed in Greece because the Euro elite have decided to treat the crisis, collapse and exit like a game.

Good for people getting their money out now because the troika wanted to give the Greeks no choice at all in the matter.

[Dreamer Tatum]

53. Austerity has already won, unless you have plans to start sending money to Greece, and...

...don't mind being told to "piss up a rope" when you have the temerity to want your money back.

[Zalatix]

69. For the thousandth time, at least this way the rich don't get away with it.

What would you rather have, the Greeks take austerity up the ass while the rich profit off of it?

This way they won't profit.

The alternative is to let Germany impose austerity upon Greece and the banksters get away with it. Then they'll use this playbook to fleece the entire world until we're ALL serfs.

There's NOTHING in history that's worse than permanent serfdom.

[Yavin4]

62. When Greece Returns to the Drachma, It Will Be A Good Thing

They will be able to export their goods at a lower price which will build up their economy. In addition, they will attract millions of tourists and other consumers because their goods will be much, much cheaper compared to goods priced in the Euro.

A de-valued currency is really not such a bad thing. In the short term, there will be pain, but within a year, their economy will recover.

[cthulu2016]

65. That's an odd prognosis

Most companies in Greece with any debts will go bankrupt and most people with mortgages will lose their homes and the price of energy will double and the cost of government borrowing will double.

That is not a bump in the road, nor something one readily rebounds from.

Whatever increase in tourism and exports they see will be relative increases... increases in drachma terms. Since those increases are irrelevant to paying off private sector euro-denominated debt or importing goods they are no panacea.

[Zalatix]

67. Lose their homes to whom? The banks holding the debt will collapse.

[hack89]

68. And what will it do to all those imports, starting with gas and oil?

how will skyrocketing energy costs help the economy?

[Zalatix]

70. It'll force them to choose an alternative renewable energy.

Gasoline and oil are killing the environment and will become impossibly expensive anyway. We could all do well by outgrowing that.

That was a bad example to use.

[hack89]

76. Really? So where will Greece get the capital to completely rebuild their energy infrastructure?

no way they can afford it.

[girl gone mad]

81. The same place every other sovereign currency regime gets its capital.

Once Greece again becomes a currency issuer, the government will be able to spend money as needed within the economy. The only true constraints to this activity are full employment, productive capacity and inflation.

[hack89]

83. Only if all the technology is designed and made in Greece.

those drachmas will be useless outside of Greece.

And Greece can't simply print more money - the only result of that will be hyperinflation.

[girl gone mad]

87. Greece can increase trade..

simply by devaluing its currency as Iceland did. Haven't we been around in circles on this issue?

The Greek government can purchase goods and services from its citizens and domestic businesses. Its citizens and domestic businesses can increase trade with foreign countries because the devalued currency will make them more competitive. Greek businesses can acquire foreign good to sell to the Greek government. Yes, they will face some serious hardships, as has Iceland, but it's manageable and beats the alternatives.

Printing does not directly result in hyperinflation or we would be experiencing hyperinflation here in the USA right now. Hyperinflation always has specific factors in addition to excessive printing, including sudden loss of productive capacity, debts owed in gold and/ or foreign currency, and the currency issuing government losing its ability to tax. Greece can simply print more money. That's the reality.

[Zalatix]

92. Devaluing your country's currency never works.

Except in China... Argentina... Iceland... the United States after World War II...

[hack89]

99. You neglect to mention capital controls, progressive taxes and austerity measures

Greece should do the same, right?

And just like Iceland, Greece should implement an IMF stabilization plan, right? And borrow billions from European countries?

And since Iceland is joining the euro-zone, Greece should stay in it, right?

[Londoncalling]

71. Many people in Europe believe the return to Drachma will take Greece to Civil War..

Civil war will destroy they tourist industry.

[girl gone mad]

79. Finally, someone on DU with a little common sense.

They will struggle and certainly it will be difficult in the beginning, but I think over the mid to long term, restoration of currency sovereignty and devaluation is the best path for Greece. The Euro project is not sustainable because the system was poorly designed from the beginning. Any and every financial crisis will be a repeat of this misery.

[fascisthunter]

96. No shit... is this fascist free-market underground now?

[coalition_unwilling]

108. A de-valued currency (or high inflation) is really not such a bad thing, provided you

don't own the existing sovereign's debt or are not on a fixed income.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

110. nobody vacations in a place without police or public sanitation

just sayin'

[TBF]

100. Solidarity with the people of Greece. nt

[GoneOffShore]

102. Bank runs are never a good thing

The problem in Greek society has been a huge lack of enforcement of the tax code across the board plus corruption.

They should have never been allowed into the Eurozone until they had cleaned up their financial house.

Small example - over 200,000 people in Greece have been discovered cheating the state pension fund by either collecting the pension of someone who is dead or collecting a double pension. These people are known to the government, but nothing has been done. I'll look for a link for this because I heard this from my financial guy yesterday and he didn't have attribution.

[Javaman]

104. +1000 nt

[Javaman]

105. Here you go...

UPDATE 2-Greece pulls the plug on pensions for the dead
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/greece-benefits-idUSL6E8FP4R320120425

(Reuters) - Greece has halted welfare or pension payments to 200,000 people either because they are unentitled to the money - or because they are dead, a Labour Ministry official said on Wednesday.

The number of people involved in the abuse, dead or alive, is roughly equal to two percent of the Greek population.

Benefit fraud is common in many welfare states but Greece has come under heavy pressure from the European Union and IMF to crack down in return for its latest 130 billion euro bailout.

Scams often involve people lying to officials who are too disorganised, chaotic or even corrupt to prevent the abuse.

more at link...

and...

Wealthy dead Greeks
http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/editorial/wealthy-dead-greeks

There's a cynical quip from the 1960s about over-the-hill rock singers who die in small plane crashes: "That's a great career move."

Being a dead Greek is another. According to the Greek labour ministry, thousands of Greeks are collecting pension cheques despite being dead. A recent data crosscheck discovered that 4,500 deceased civil servants were still on the social security payroll to the tune of €16 million (Dh102 million) per year.

The government is now investigating a suspiciously high number of people over the age of 100 - more than 9,000 hardy codgers - who are still drawing funds from the hard-pressed Greek social security fund.

The Labour Ministry has pledged to cut spending by €8 billion in 2012-2015, one of several conditions Greece must meet to continue receiving bailout funds from the European Union and the IMF.

more at link...