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liberal N proud

(60,334 posts)
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:30 PM Jul 2015

Guns Don't Deter Crime, Study Finds

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the General Discussion forum).

"The one thing that would have at least ameliorated the horrible situation in Charleston would have been that if somebody in that prayer meeting had a conceal carry or there had been either an off-duty policeman or an on-duty policeman, somebody with the legal authority to carry a firearm and could have stopped the shooter," presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said in a Fox News interview on June 19.

A new study, however, throws cold water on the idea that a well-armed populace deters criminals or prevents murders. Instead, higher ownership of guns in a state is linked to more firearm robberies, more firearm assaults and more homicide in general. [5 Milestones in Gun Control History]

"We found no support for the hypothesis that owning more guns leads to a drop or a reduction in violent crime," said study researcher Michael Monuteaux, an epidemiologist and professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. "Instead, we found the opposite."

More guns, more gun crime

Numerous studies have found that gun ownership correlates with gun homicide, and homicide by gun is the most common type of homicide in the United States. In 2013, for example, there were 16,121 total homicides in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and 11,208 of those were carried out with a firearm. (Gun suicides outpace gun homicides by far; in 2013, the CDC recorded 21,175 suicides by firearm, about half of all suicides that year. Contrary to popular belief, suicide is typically an impulsive act, psychiatrists say. Ninety percent of people who attempt suicide once will not go on to complete a suicide later, but a suicide attempt using a gun is far more lethal than other methods.)

http://news.yahoo.com/guns-dont-deter-crime-study-finds-180710261.html#

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Guns Don't Deter Crime, Study Finds (Original Post) liberal N proud Jul 2015 OP
But, but. . .America ProfessorGAC Jul 2015 #1
It's just an amendment. We have abolished other amendments. Betty Karlson Jul 2015 #24
So, You Admit You Hate The Constitution? ProfessorGAC Jul 2015 #30
Unashamedly so. Betty Karlson Jul 2015 #32
guns dont kill, bullets do nt HFRN Jul 2015 #2
The White Knight Delusion is strong in gun-lovers. Playing Dungeons and Dragons. With real weapons. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #3
High Gun Ownership Rates Are Strongly Correlated With High Gun Death Rates onehandle Jul 2015 #4
why does that graph hate freedom? Takket Jul 2015 #9
I'd like to see that graph with suicides excluded. erronis Jul 2015 #23
Yep, cuz suicides are not at all a problem. Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2015 #31
I will be right back with spiffy charts and graphs that prove otherwize olddots Jul 2015 #5
1995 - 16,305 murders with guns. 2010 - 8,855 murders with guns hack89 Jul 2015 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author LanternWaste Jul 2015 #8
Can you show that the drop is due to an increase in the number of guns? Orrex Jul 2015 #12
There is no such correlation. hack89 Jul 2015 #13
How might we explain the ~3,000 jump from 2010 to 2011? Orrex Jul 2015 #15
There was an increase in all violent crimes in 2011, not just gun murders hack89 Jul 2015 #18
Aren't we arguing the same point? Orrex Jul 2015 #19
And that more guns did not lead to an increase in crime rate. hack89 Jul 2015 #20
I don't currently have access to the full violent crimes tally, but I see your point. Orrex Jul 2015 #27
Gun violence is very geographically concentrated in America hack89 Jul 2015 #34
Yes, and it's not the first study finding this. It's a replicable result, and holds up after DanTex Jul 2015 #7
So the number of guns in America has significantly increased hack89 Jul 2015 #10
Studies, schmudies. Unless if validates my bias, it's flawed/inaccurate/questionable... LanternWaste Jul 2015 #11
IBTL KamaAina Jul 2015 #14
Facts don't matter for the Tactical Tier 1 Operators Matrosov Jul 2015 #16
In before the lock! flamin lib Jul 2015 #17
SURPRISE!!! Oh well. It's a good thing we don't like science and numbers are to be viewed Ed Suspicious Jul 2015 #21
In other news water is wet. Fearless Jul 2015 #22
I grew up with guns in my home. I could have done with out them, really. iscooterliberally Jul 2015 #25
Hey man, what about the fact that some people just love guns? You wanna deprive them of their fun? Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2015 #26
So mexico with its strict gun laws is probably much safer than the US, correct? Travis_0004 Jul 2015 #28
The nature of a majority of posts in this thread shows why these threads get locked. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #29
More home protection. It just goes on and on... iscooterliberally Jul 2015 #33
Locking... DonViejo Jul 2015 #35

ProfessorGAC

(64,990 posts)
1. But, but. . .America
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:31 PM
Jul 2015

Why do you hate the constitution?

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
24. It's just an amendment. We have abolished other amendments.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:57 PM
Jul 2015

Like the ban on alcohol?

ProfessorGAC

(64,990 posts)
30. So, You Admit You Hate The Constitution?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:27 PM
Jul 2015
 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
32. Unashamedly so.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:32 PM
Jul 2015

The USA has three types of wannabe-conservatives.

There's the Democrats, who are the wannabe-conservatives that want to take the USA back to the 1990-ies.

There's the GOP, who are the wannabe-conservatives that want to take the USA back to the 1950-ies.

There's the TEA-party, who are the wannabe-conservatives that want to take the country back to the 1850-ies.

But a REAL conservative (like me) would take the country back to the 1750-ies, tear up the constitution, and become British again.

------------------

Too much?

 

HFRN

(1,469 posts)
2. guns dont kill, bullets do nt
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jul 2015

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
3. The White Knight Delusion is strong in gun-lovers. Playing Dungeons and Dragons. With real weapons.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:36 PM
Jul 2015

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
4. High Gun Ownership Rates Are Strongly Correlated With High Gun Death Rates
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:39 PM
Jul 2015

Figuring out the dynamics at play in social gun culture, according to Kalesan, will be key to sparking social change about the attitudes and practices that inform gun ownership in the first place. She said educating Americans about the health dangers of having a firearm in their homes will change the way people feel about gun ownership, which in turn could drive laws that make guns more difficult to obtain.

"A public health approach, much like the anti-tobacco effort, is necessary, first to facilitate a social change and then political will to form effective policies,” Kalesan told HuffPost. "We also need research to understand the public health consequences in different communities and to identify effective social interventions in different populations."

For instance, past research has found a link between the rate of household gun ownership and elevated rates of firearm-suicide, despite the fact that gun owners do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owners, nor are they more prone to suicide than non-gun owners. Other studies have found that gun ownership leads to more violent crime in general, as guns tend fall into the wrong hands when stolen or sold on secondary markets.



“In 2013 alone, 33,636 persons were killed using a gun, while 84,258 were shot non-fatally,” said Kalesan. "Those who are injured have a difficult journey during recovery, some remaining paraplegic and injured often with PTSD for the rest of their lives.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/02/average-gun-owner-america-gun-violence-study_n_7709884.html

Takket

(21,554 posts)
9. why does that graph hate freedom?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jul 2015

erronis

(15,226 posts)
23. I'd like to see that graph with suicides excluded.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:51 PM
Jul 2015

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
31. Yep, cuz suicides are not at all a problem.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:30 PM
Jul 2015
 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
5. I will be right back with spiffy charts and graphs that prove otherwize
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:43 PM
Jul 2015

but first a word from my sponsor Wayne .

Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Orrex

(63,199 posts)
12. Can you show that the drop is due to an increase in the number of guns?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:13 PM
Jul 2015

hack89

(39,171 posts)
13. There is no such correlation.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:17 PM
Jul 2015

Murder is a complex social phenomena. But I am certain that more guns did not result in America's murder rate being cut in half.

Orrex

(63,199 posts)
15. How might we explain the ~3,000 jump from 2010 to 2011?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:21 PM
Jul 2015

Incidentally, the overall violent crime rate has fallen over the span that you describe (1993 to 2010), so it follows that the murder rate would decline as well.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
18. There was an increase in all violent crimes in 2011, not just gun murders
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:34 PM
Jul 2015

so obviously the increase is related to something other than the number of guns in society.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

Orrex

(63,199 posts)
19. Aren't we arguing the same point?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:49 PM
Jul 2015

That an increase in guns doesn't cause a drop in crime rate?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
20. And that more guns did not lead to an increase in crime rate.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:01 PM
Jul 2015

it is a two sided coin. Either guns matter (good and bad) or they don't. The OP specifically says "More guns, more gun crime". I don't think that the past 20 years bear that out.

Orrex

(63,199 posts)
27. I don't currently have access to the full violent crimes tally, but I see your point.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:14 PM
Jul 2015

Of course, if guns don't lead to a reduction in crime, why is this used as a major selling point for guns?


Also, this leaves us with the question of why our murder-by-gun rate so greatly exceeds every other developed nation on the planet, if guns actually have no bearing on violent crime.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
34. Gun violence is very geographically concentrated in America
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 04:15 PM
Jul 2015

if you look at a city like Chicago or Boston, for example, you will see that gun violence is concentrated in a few neighborhoods. The vast majority of Americans live in areas with murder rates on par with all the other developed nations.

High crime rates are associated with poverty, unemployment, poor education, drugs and criminal gangs. Most developed nations have social safety nets and rational drug laws that don't leave them with concentrated pockets of desperate, violent people. The demographics of violent crime are well known - lets focus on those who are actually committing the violence.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
7. Yes, and it's not the first study finding this. It's a replicable result, and holds up after
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:58 PM
Jul 2015

after controlling. More guns, more homicide.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
10. So the number of guns in America has significantly increased
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jul 2015

over the pass 20 years, resulting in a corresponding increase in murder? Is that the argument?

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
11. Studies, schmudies. Unless if validates my bias, it's flawed/inaccurate/questionable...
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:05 PM
Jul 2015

Studies, schmudies. Unless if validates my bias, it's flawed/inaccurate/questionable-- and I have my own biased and flawed interpretations of other studies to prove it...

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
14. IBTL
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:19 PM
Jul 2015

This same thread got locked yesterday. Guns, y'know.

 

Matrosov

(1,098 posts)
16. Facts don't matter for the Tactical Tier 1 Operators
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:26 PM
Jul 2015

Only emotions do.

"Oh, so you want people to be defenseless?"

"Oh, so you want women to be raped?"

"Oh, so you want us to be thrown into reeducation camps?"

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
17. In before the lock!
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:29 PM
Jul 2015

All data that doesn't support NRA talking points is biased, poorly researched, improperly interpreted and presented solely to take all our guns away.

Didn't ya know that?

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
21. SURPRISE!!! Oh well. It's a good thing we don't like science and numbers are to be viewed
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:12 PM
Jul 2015

with a skeptical eye.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
22. In other news water is wet.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:25 PM
Jul 2015

The solution to gun violence isn't more guns?

Shocker!

iscooterliberally

(2,860 posts)
25. I grew up with guns in my home. I could have done with out them, really.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:04 PM
Jul 2015

The first time I fired a weapon I was 5 years old. I wanted to search for crawdads in the creek, but dad insisted that I shoot. We were in the woods outside of Macon, GA sometime around 1967. He handed me the gun and helped me aim it and I fired the gun. I was instantly blind and deaf. I had no eye or ear protection. The gun that I shot was a 9mm Luger. If you're familiar with that weapon you can guess what happened to me. I remember when we got home, and mom got her first look at me, she started screaming at my dad. I had a lump the size of a bottle cap right in the center of my forehead, and a pounding skull ache. My dad was a chronic alcoholic who had served in the national guard. He was also a gun enthusiast. Two years later, we had moved up near Atlanta, and my dad bought a snub nosed .38 revolver for 'home protection'. My younger brother was all excited about that. He did not have the benefit of my experience, but that was about to change. My brother was 5, and my dad was passed out on the couch. I was not even remotely interested in the new gun. I had a comic book that I was reading and my brother disappeared down the hallway. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw my brother come back and sit down on the coffee table across the room from me. I noticed that he was holding the gun and about to squeeze the trigger. I went to say no, but it was too late. I saw the round come out of the barrel and lodge in the drywall about a foot away from my right knee. My brother screamed and dropped the gun and ran down the hallway. My father jumped up off of the couch and looked around. He saw the gun on the floor and me still sitting in the chair. At first he thought I had been shot, but I said no, and showed him where the round had gone into the wall. My dad punished my brother severely for that, but it was obviously my dad's fault. I have other gun related horror stories, but I'll stop here. If you think you need a gun for home protection, you should probably move, or get a dog. At least with a dog, you will know the trouble is coming before it makes it in the door. A gun won't do you any good unless you are on patrol with your weapon at the ready. I would rather not be on patrol, or live in a world where I have to worry about who I'm going to have to shoot at. I would rather have a closet full of guitars any day.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
26. Hey man, what about the fact that some people just love guns? You wanna deprive them of their fun?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:11 PM
Jul 2015

Gun advocates are courageous freedom fighters!

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
28. So mexico with its strict gun laws is probably much safer than the US, correct?
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:17 PM
Jul 2015
 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
29. The nature of a majority of posts in this thread shows why these threads get locked.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:26 PM
Jul 2015

Snark ain't discussion.

Time to lock this one too.

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
35. Locking...
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 04:52 PM
Jul 2015

A consensus of Forum Hosts agree, this OP does not meet the requirements of the SOP for the posting of gun threads. Forum Hosts encourage you to post this OP in one of the gun groups.

From the SOP:

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