Why I support Trump's comments about McCain

[AverageGuy]

I am a Vietnam era veteran and not a supporter of Donald Trump, but I do not like the way the other Republican candidates are piling on him because of his comments about Senator McCain. I will now give my viewpoint.

Senator McCain is a hero, but is no more so then the 1000's of nameless American servicemen who were also captured, and did not have an active duty four-star admiral as a father. They did not get the hype and come home to a hero's welcome the way McCain did. They, and countless wounded Vietnam veterans, came home anonymously with no celebration, and little or no care for their wounds, both physical and mental. Too many ended up homeless in the streets, they did not end up going to the United States Senate. Rather then using his position in the Senate, making sure those Vietnam veterans got the care they earned, as you think he would, he was meeting with federal regulators to discuss and influence the government's investigation of the Lincoln Savings and Loan Association.

John McCain may be a hero, but he is no more so then any other person who served in Vietnam.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. I felt similarly, but I was offered this reply to a similar comment

Calista241 (1,094 posts)
9. McCain was given the opportunity to go home

When the NVA figured out who his father was. McCain's father was the Admiral in charge of the Pacific fleet, one of the highest ranking positions in the Navy.

McCain declined the offer because he feared what would happen to the other prisoners if he was split up from them. He spent several additional years as a POW and was severely tortured for that decision.

I'd say that last sentence especially puts a more heroic face on him than just 'being captured', which is about all I remembered about his time in service.

That doesn't mean that what he's done since has been all that heroic, though.

[riderinthestorm]

4. Many POWs refused early release as it entailed basically turning treasonous

and becoming a PR propaganda tool for Vietnam.

[NuclearDem]

43. Actually, that's one of Stockdale's policies that's no longer taught.

Unless there was an overwhelmingly compelling reason not to take it, POWs are instructed to take early release if offered.

The information they can provide about the status, welfare, and locations of other POWs is typically worth whatever token propaganda their captors get from it.

[pnwmom]

44. And they were also heroes. Trump, however, is just a lump. nt

[rainy]

55. I don't understand. If you are a prisoner

how do you get to choose early release?

[JonLP24]

71. In McCain's situation

given the realization that he was a son of a top Admiral, IIRC the top Admiral of the Vietnam campaign but I'm going off memory here he was promoted into the position as prisoner where he was malnourished & a variety of other things which made it a big press story back then or there are records of reports. I don't know if it was but probably or could be considered as a propaganda technique to present yourself in a better light to release a high profile prisoner so McCain which seemed familiar with the POW code of conduct at the time was aware of this so he told them not unless they released the others or something like that so they kept him and this is where he underwent the heavy duty torture.


Code of Conduct

<snip>

One of the most elaborate propaganda efforts was the 1952 POW Olympics held in Pyuktong, North Korea. For 12 days in November, approximately 500 prison athletes from Britain, South Korea, Australia, Turkey, and the U.S. competed against other camps in events mirroring the World Olympics such as baseball, boxing, and track and field. This effort was publicized to show the world just how well the UN prisoners were treated. Of course, this was not the reality. Very few American servicemen were mentally prepared to protect themselves from such barbaric treatment and intense indoctrination attempts. Through inhumane treatment and manipulation, many prisoners were forced to collaborate with the communists.[1][2]

After the termination of the hostilities in Korea and the subsequent release of American prisoners of war, twenty-one Americans chose to remain in China, refusing repatriation. Many former U.S. prisoners coming back to their homeland were criminally charged and tried for offenses that "amounted to treason, desertion to the enemy, mistreatment of fellow prisoners of war, and similar crimes." The emotions and compassion of the public were aroused, as graphic details of the inhumane treatment of U.S. POWs in communist prison camps surfaced during the trials. Public discussion caused intense arguments over what should have been done about Americans who were "brainwashed" in Korea and what to do about those in future wars who may be the recipients of similar bloody treatment.[1][2]


On August 7, 1954, the United States Secretary of Secretary directed that a committee be formed to recommend a suitable approach for conducting a comprehensive study of the problems related to the entire Korean War POW experience. The work of that committee resulted in the May 17, 1955 appointment of the Defense Advisory Committee on Prisoners of War, headed by Carter L. Burgess, assistant secretary of defense for Manpower and Personnel. The committee took heed of the ongoing divisive debate, noting that while all services had regulations governing the conduct of prisoners of war, "the United States armed forces have never had a clearly defined code of conduct applicable to American prisoners after capture."[1][2]

Colonel Franklin Brooke Nihart, USMC, worked at Marine Corps headquarters throughout the summer of 1955, outlined his ideas in longhand and the Code of Conduct was established with the issuance of Executive Order 10631 by President Dwight D. Eisenhower on 17 August 1955 which stated, "Every member of the Armed Forces of the United States are expected to measure up to the standards embodied in the Code of Conduct while in combat or in captivity." It has been modified twice—once in 1977 by President Jimmy Carter in Executive Order 12017, and most recently in President Ronald Reagan's Executive Order 12633 of March 1988, which amended the code to make it gender-neutral.

Notably, the code prohibits surrender except when "all reasonable means of resistance [are] exhausted and...certain death the only alternative," enjoins captured Americans to "resist by all means available" and "make every effort to escape and aid others," and bars the acceptance of parole or special favors from enemy forces. The code also outlines proper conduct for American prisoners of war, reaffirms that under the Geneva Conventions prisoners of war should give "name, rank, service number, and date of birth" and requires that under interrogation captured military personnel should "evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability."

<snip>

Article 3 is perhaps the most relevant area

<snip>

c. The Geneva Convention recognizes that a POW may have the duty to attempt escape. In fact, the Geneva Convention prohibits a captor nation from executing a POW simply for attempting escape. Under the authority of the senior official (often called the senior ranking officer, or SRO), a POW must be prepared to escape whenever the opportunity presents itself. In a POW compound, the senior POW must consider the welfare of those remaining behind after an escape. However, as a matter of conscious determination, a POW must plan to escape, try to escape and assist others to escape.
d. Contrary to the spirit of the Geneva Convention, many enemies who have captured American POW's since 1950, have regarded the POW compound as an extension of the battlefield. In doing so, they have used a variety of tactics and pressures, including physical and mental mistreatment, torture and medical neglect, to exploit POWs for propaganda purposes, to obtain military information or to undermine POW organization, communication and resistance.
e. Such enemies have attempted to lure American POWs into accepting special favors or privileges in exchange for statements, acts or information. Unless it is essential to the life or welfare of that person or another prisoner of war or to the success of efforts to resist or escape, a POW must neither seek nor accept special favors or privileges.
f. One such privilege is called parole. Parole is a promise by a prisoner of war to a captor to fulfill certain conditions such as agreeing not to escape nor to fight again once released—in return for such favors as relief from physical bondage, improved food and living conditions or repatriation ahead of the sick, injured or longer–held prisoners. An American POW will never sign nor otherwise accept parole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_United_States_Fighting_Force

FTR, for someone who is a POW in the sort of situations this code is addressing are very traumatic experiences so that seems like an awful lot of rules for how one should act, shaming the not so quite perfect trauma survivors but this is where the "early release" idea comes from.

[underpants]

10. And he took a great deal of savage beatings for it

At least three per week.

Okay I'm a guy who served in the Army but anyone who has seen someone take pain (usually due to illness ) you respect it. McCain took the pain.

[AverageGuy]

14. McCain would not go home because of the shame it would reflect on his family

McCain followed his father and grandfather, both four-star admirals, into the United States Navy. A Capitan does not desert his ship or men. He was the senior rank in his group of prisoners. He had no honorable choice but to stay.

[UtahJosh]

61. That doesn't ring true to me at all.

He was more concerned with "family shame" than with staying in a torture camp for a few more years?

What, was he more afraid of his father and grandfather than the actual enemy who was standing ready to torture him mercilessly?

Or did he really abide by a family "code of ethics" that would forbid such a disgrace for the sake of the family dedicated to the military cause? If so, even that in itself sounds pretty fucking heroic to me.

I dunno...I was never a McCain fan (even still, I think the dude really should retire and stop fucking up the Senate along with his fifty-plus compatriots), but excuses about him rejecting early release "for the wrong reasons" really smack of desperate partisanship, and maybe even a little swiftboating.

Just sayin...

[awake]

2. I bet Trump will visit vets this week to show that all vets are heroes

[mulsh]

3. 3 of my uncles were POW's they loathed McCain. "You aren't supposed to get captured" summed

up their attitude about McCain and the media's relentless boasting of his "War Hero" status. All three of my uncles survived Japanese prison camps. They rarely talked about what happened or what they did in the war.

Much as I loathe Trump and the rest of that clown car I have say I think he's got a valid point about Senator "competitively priced war hero" McCain

[topological]

6. So you had three uncles get captured but they loathed McCain for getting captured?

They must have been quite the joy to be around.

[mulsh]

32. They loath McCain because he's a "showboating scumbag" to quote one of them. enjoy your visit to DU.

n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. Trump was talking about your three uncles as well.

"I like people who weren't captured."

Trump insinuates that "winners" don't get captured on the battlefield, and "losers" don't.

[Dorian Gray]

57. Dude

if you're not supposed to be captured, how did three of your uncles end up captured?

Look, I'm thrilled McCain isn't our president! But, his capture and torture at the hands of the Vietnamese is nothing to sneer at. His politics, sure.

Contempt coming at anybody who was captured during war seems pointless.

And Donald Trump is a fool.

[Siwsan]

5. If Trump wants to McCain bash, he should stick to the political McCain

In an earlier post I gave my opinion about McCain being, or not being an authentic hero. I have very little good to say about the man, but I can give a whole lot of examples that have to do with what his politics have done to the country. Trump is a yellow bellied chicken hawk who spent the war getting deferments. He has ZERO credibility to speak ill about any veteran who served with honor and valor, whether they be combat or non combat.

[AverageGuy]

16. All o the Republicans running this year are

yellow bellied chicken hawks who spent the war getting deferments.

[Siwsan]

18. Lindsey Graham is a reserve JAG officer

I think in the Air Force. I could be wrong about the branch. Wait - he IS in the clown car, isn't he? I'm losing track.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. He is, and retired just before launching his campaign

as a full bird.

[ann---]

39. Not Rick Perry

[onenote]

42. As a Vietnam War era vet, I would expect you to know

that most of the repub candidates came of draft age after the draft had ended. I wouldn't vote for any of them if you paid me, but spreading inaccurate information really isn't helpful. Whether that matters to you is another question altogether.

[AverageGuy]

49. So what war did they fight in?

I believe the answer is none.

[onenote]

65. True. But that doesn't make your OP accurate

[davidpdx]

47. Very true

It reminds me not only about the attacks on SOS Kerry, but also the senator who was in the wheelchair who got smeared (I can't remember his name off-hand). In all three cases doing so is wrong.

Trump is an ass and his days as a candidate are numbered.

[yeoman6987]

7. I just think there are a

host of things to go negative with McCain on. To me trump was lazy. The funny thing is McCain isn't even running.

[freshwest]

8. I support Trump helping the GOP lose in 2016. Keep quacking through the primaries, Donald! n/t

[vankuria]

9. No veteran should have his military record disparaged

I don't care what side of the aisle he's on and especially from someone who managed to get out of military service during his generations war. While the GOP saw fit to do this to Sen. Kerry in '04, I would hope my fellow Democrats would never stoop to this level. Since Trump brought this up, it's a good time to remind voters of the way the GOP conducted itself regarding Sen. Kerry's military record.

[davidpdx]

46. I agree

Unless the person was dishonorably discharged, bashing their service to their country should be discouraged. I don't like McCain and sure as hell won't defend him politically, but he served our country and should be thanked for it.

[AverageGuy]

50. Look I liked McCain (before he went over to the dark side)

In fact, I voted or him in 08. But he is no more a hero then any other person who served in the Vietnam war. When he joined the Navy, he was entering the family business. When boys were drafted, such as myself, it was "My country, may she always be right, but my country right or wrong, my country." It was only a matter of duty to the United States, no matter what you thought of the policy. McCain came home to fanfare, and fame, while countless numbers of my brothers came home to nothing, and too many of them were tossed into the street.

[XRubicon]

52. You voted for McCain/Palin in 08?

You wrote:

"In fact, I voted or him in 08. But he is no more a hero then any other person ..."

[AverageGuy]

60. Yes I did, as I explained it at that time

"I am a Republican who is upset at the direction my party has taken, and McCain was a "Moderate Republican" in the past. We were fighting for the soul of our party, and I thought Palin was just a bone thrown to the crazies in my party. I am a social conservative, but an economic liberal. I have tried to post this letter at Republican blogs and it is always taken down. I hope this letter gives moderates the courage to help take back my party. We need a center-left and center-right political parties, not parties on the extremes. I believe Obama is center-left , but my party is now right-wing crazies, that will comprise on nothing. Since I do not have millions of dollars to get my message out, I must rely on democrats."

The letter I was talking about was titled "For the first time in my life, I will be voting against a Republican candidate for president." It got 161 replies, 108,321 views and 276 Recs. You can read it at http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021135316#post149

I am very afraid that with so many Republican candidates, Mitt Romney will once again be their nominee, And he will be much stronger in the GE this time around.

[XRubicon]

66. So you are viguy007 who was ppr'ed?

Welcome back....

[davidpdx]

69. I appreciate your service to our country

In terms of McCain, whether he got preferential treatment as you are inferring, I don't know. There is no doubt in my mind that many of those who served came home broken and were not treated as well as they should have.

Those things aside, the thread is about Trump's comments disparaging Senator McCain. Given that Trump never served a day of his life in the military, he has no right to attack Senator McCain's service record. If he wanted to criticize him based on his political beliefs, I'm fine with that (I agree on very few things with McCain). Trump stepped way over the line and showed what a disingenuous prick he is. Then again, most of us already knew that.

[EV_Ares]

58. Agree totally with your post & finally someone remembered the attacks & mockery of Senator Kerry by

republicans when he ran for President. Do you remember at the republican convention, those delegates wearing purple band aids?

[vankuria]

63. Yes I do

remember the purple heart band aids. I will never forget it as it was one of the most despicable displays I'd ever seen. The GOP owns it and we need to make sure it's never forgotten.

[onenote]

11. No one who wants to be Commander in Chief

Should ever suggest that he likes service personnel who are captured less than those who aren't. It's despicable.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

12. Trump will be the finest Cmdr-in-Chief that God ever devised ...

... just ask him.

[BlueMTexpat]

13. I don't support them - not so

much because they were comments about McCain (who, whatever he did in Vietnam, is still a 1st-class A**hole, IMO) but because Trump has no business saying anything but praise about ANYONE who served in Vietnam.

And yes, I thank you and countless others - including my late brother - who did their patriotic duty when so many like Trump (mostly GOPers, btw) did everything they could to get out of it. He's a typical RepubliCON warmonger - all in favor of sending other people to fight the battles he starts.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/donald-trump-evades-specifics-on-his-draft-deferment-120330.html

See also: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/celebrity/deferments-helped-trump-dodge-vietnam and http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-vietnam-draft-records-secret-documents-deferments/story?id=13492639

Glass houses indeed. But keep on talking, Donald, and keep on digging yourself in!

[MiniMe]

15. I agree, but I do give McCain credit for refusing to leave without

the other prisoners who were captured first. And I agree that McCain should have done more for the vets while a Senator. I also think he should have come out stronger against torture.

But I have great respect for all those that have served.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. I'm surprised Trump didn't mention that time McCain poured gasoline on his starter...

turning his plane into a flamethrower that caused rockets and bombs on the plane parked behind it to explode.

[former9thward]

27. That never happened.

There are countless links to the truth. You should try reading one.

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. I worked on the flight decks of the USS America, USS Ranger, and USS Constellation.

I know exactly how the fire started. In fact, I'm usually the one who's here trying to explain to those posting bad information concerning the Forrestal fire that what they're claiming is impossible because of the way A/C are parked on flight decks when flight operations begin. I guess I should have included the sarcasm tag. I actually had the honor of working with a few men who were on the flight deck of the Forrestal that day.

No, I posted what I did out of surprise that something along those lines hadn't been posted yet. In most every thread including the name McCain and the word military, someone makes the claim that McCain intentionally "wet started" his airplane (in some weird effort to be a "cowboy" or something along those lines) and caused the Zuni rocket to explode.

Sorry for the misunderstanding... it's my fault.

[former9thward]

38. No, my fault.

I didn't catch it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. LOL no it's MY fault!

Actually, I thought "poured gasoline on his starter" would give me away.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. Except what you are saying is nothing like what Trump said. Trump did not say 'they are all heroes'

he said people who get captured suck so if you agree with him that those who get captured are deserving of derision, what's with all this flowery language about the 1000's of others captured?

[xmas74]

23. And there you have it.

People who get captured suck. That means my grandfather, a POW during WWII, sucked.

Fuck Trump.

[XRubicon]

29. Don't spoil the moment by bringing up what Trump actually said...

Geesh... people might think Trump is an asshole or something.

[DrDan]

20. I am another Vietnam-era vet and agree with you

[lpbk2713]

21. The wackos get all the publicity early and name rcognition as a result.

He'll dry up and blow away before the primaries even get going good.

[AverageGuy]

30. That is what the Republicans hope.

If this does not kill Trump's campaign, they will just die

[XRubicon]

22. Trump thanks you for supporting his comments... nt

[AverageGuy]

28. Only telling the truth as I see it

[XRubicon]

31. You should take another look at what Trump said

Then edit your post.

[ann---]

37. I'd say it's your

opinion - not truth. McCain was a POW and he
was a war hero. Unlike Drumpf, I LIKE those
who were captured.

[ladyVet]

41. Well, in that case, I think you're on the wrong forum.

Sounds like freeper "truth" to me.

[orpupilofnature57]

53. There is no such thing .

[AverageGuy]

54. Well, Trump said a stupid thing

But as a Vet from the Vietnam era, I resent the fact that McCain (a gung ho lifer), became a hero while boys more worthy then him were tossed into the street. Once he entered a position of power he did nothing but talk about helping other Vets. All talk, no action.

[pinboy3niner]

56. Your stories don't add up

From both resenting McCain and voting for him, to supporting Trump's insult to POWs while expressing a completely contradictory personal opinion of POWs, you're spewing a load of inconsistent and contradictory BS that just doesn't hold water.

I'm a vet, too. Vietnam combat Infantry platoon leader, 101st Airborne Division. WIA and retired for partial combat disability as a Captain. One of my men spent 3 years as a POW. I tend to be easily offended by crap spewed on these subjects.

[XRubicon]

67. see post 60 and my reply... nt

[oldandhappy]

24. I honor McCain's war record,

and I also hold him accountable of everything he has done since -- not a hero for all of the 'since'.

[former9thward]

26. You are wrong.

McCain did not get a "hero's welcome" alone. The POWs were released in February, 1973 all at once and they came home together. They all got "hero's welcome" together. What happened later and to others who were not POWs was indeed poor treatment given everything. Trump is an idiot.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. "I like people who don't get captured."

Please tell me exactly how you support that.

Fuck Donald Trump and his comments. He's a shit stain.

[ann---]

35. I agree with you

Reading is Fundamental - and Drumpf's comments are actually ON VIDEO.
Why people especially vets, support this idiot's comment about McCain
I'll never know. It certainly doesn't say much for them that they cannot
even understand what the loon said.

[ann---]

34. You support that lunatic's comments?

Shame on you. Drumpf said he liked "those who were
not captured." Meaning - he does NOT like those who
WERE captured. Any vet who agrees with this idiot
should be ashamed.

No one is saying that ONLY John McCain is a hero.
In fact, those who disagree with the loon, believe
that ALL those who were captured are heroes - unlike
what your idol said.

I just don't understand why people don't get it.

[Skittles]

48. Trump is garbage

I am no fan of McCain, but Trump the CHICKENHAWK trashing a veteran / POW is SICKENING

[pinboy3niner]

59. Worse, that chickenhawk trashes all POWS for being captured

Cable news aired brief reactions from a couple of vets at the VFW convention who said all vets should be offended by the insult to POWs in Trump's comment, and one noted Trump's multiple draft deferments. Good for those vets for saying it!

[Skittles]

68. correct

Trump does offend me, greatly

I have lost a lot of respect for McCain over the past decade but I have never disrespected his military service, and f*** all these people - Donald Trump and YES, *some* DUers, who indulge in such slime.

[orpupilofnature57]

51. + 1000 Well Put !!!!!!!!!!

And Trumpet is should be an embarrassment instead of the " Front-runner " he personifies what they became after Shrub .

[Tommy_Carcetti]

62. Our poster has not yet bothered to answer how he supports Trump's actual quote.

"I like people who weren't captured."

It's easy to pretend he was only insulting John McCain. But he wasn't. Far from it.

[pinboy3niner]

64. Indeed

Trump also has been spinning like mad to shift the conversation to everything BUT that quote.

[JonLP24]

70. You're right. Bernie Sanders had to save the VA from McCain and the privatizers

to McCain's credit, at-least he was willing to listen.

Sanders, McCain reach deal to fix VA

Sens. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) on Thursday announced a deal on legislation to reform the Veterans Affairs Department’s troubled health system amid a scandal over long wait times for treatment.

The $2 billion compromise measure gives the VA secretary expanded powers to fire poorly performing individuals, would allow some veterans to seek outside health care and would hire more doctors.

<snip>

Sanders said he convinced McCain to back hiring new doctors and nurses despite charges from GOP lawmakers that VA personnel only saw half the number of patients as private providers.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/208396-sanders-mccain-reach-deal-on-va-bill

I just cited that source for that last part. There are bits and pieces from several places -- can't find the article with the claim of overheard shouting between Bernie Sanders and McCain but trust me, I swear its out there.

This piece will probably have to do for now

Senators reach bipartisan deal on bill to fix VA

<snip>

Despite expected opposition from some conservatives concerned about the cost of the deal, chances of passage are good given the public uproar over the scandal and the political goodwill that veterans issues enjoy on Capitol Hill. The House, for example, has already passed several of the management reforms.

Sanders held four days of talks with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), whose state was home to a hospital that was the target of the most damning allegations of mismanagement. Acting VA Secretary Sloan D. Gibson visited the Phoenix facility Thursday and said that 18 of the 1,700 veterans put on secret waiting lists had died while awaiting care. At least 14 of the deaths came after veterans contacted VA for “end-of-life care,” Gibson said.

“This is not a perfect document,” McCain said, but he praised Sanders’s efforts, describing his colleague as a “fighter.”

Both senators heralded the deal as a rare opportunity for lawmakers to show Americans that Congress can act swiftly in response to a government scandal. Aware of the difficult partisan climate in Congress, they also implored their colleagues not to delay consideration of the bill.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senators-reach-bipartisan-deal-on-bill-to-fix-va/2014/06/05/0c380a50-ecf3-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html

On that note though criticizing McCain in this area may be a loser's strategy, while not as bad as the other side who slammed Sander's initial VA reform bill as a "Christmas tree full of goodies" (this one was easy to find)

Before Thursday’s agreement, Sanders had been criticizing the Republican VA bills, which he said did not address the core of the VA’s problems. Republicans, meanwhile, had called Sanders’ legislation a “Christmas tree bill” that would cost too much.
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/bernie-sanders-john-mccain-va-deal-107491.html

This is video from Sanders & McCain on the Senate floor on the VA reform bill to help make your own judgments
http://www.c-span.org/video/?319806-9/senators-sanders-mccain-veterans-health-legislation

I was following this a lot closer when the Phoenix VA was undergoing a "scandal" which is the one I go to but I wish I saved some of it. Even if I did I probably couldn't find it or remember it in all my sea of bookmarks.