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Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:07 PM

Pope Francis ignites a revolt that will overthrow American capitalism

"Pope Francis ignites a revolt that will overthrow American capitalism," by Paul B. Farrell

Yes, Pope Francis is encouraging civil disobedience, leading a rebellion. Listen closely, Francis knows he’s inciting political rebellion, an uprising of the masses against the world’s superrich capitalists. And yet, right-wing conservatives remain in denial, tuning out the pope’s message, hoping he’ll just go away like the “Occupy Wall Street” movement did.

Never. America’s narcissistic addiction to presidential politics is dumbing down our collective brain. Warning: Forget Bernie vs. Hillary. Forget the circus-clown-car distractions created by Trump vs. the GOP’s Fab 15. Pope Francis is the only real political leader that matters this year. Forget the rest. Here’s why:

Pope Francis is not just leading a “Second American Revolution,” he is rallying people across the Earth, middle class as well as poor, inciting billions to rise up in a global economic revolution, one that could suddenly sweep the planet, like the 1789 French storming the Bastille.

Unfortunately, conservative capitalists — Big Oil, Koch billionaires, our GOP Congress and all fossil-fuel climate-science deniers — are blind to the fact their ideology is on the wrong side of history, that by fighting a no-win battle they are committing suicide, self-destructing their own ideology.


Very comprehensive article and definitely worth a careful read.

And another excerpt:

Pope Francis message is unambiguous: “Unbridled capitalism” has become a “subtle dictatorship,” is now the very “dung of the devil.” Ouch, that must hurt even the stone-cold Koch ego. Francis says that capitalism’s greedy “unfettered pursuit of money” is destroying the “common good,” setting a stage for revolutions. The pope urged the masses to “say no to an economy of exclusion and inequality, where money rules,” because capitalists will “destroy Mother Earth” in order to enrich the superrich elite. Yet another revolutionary call to battle.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/pope-francis-leading-the-new-american-socialist-revolution-2015-07-20

ETA: Article by Christopher Hale in Time that Farrell refers to:

"Pope Francis Isn’t Holding Back—And U.S. Politicians Should Watch Out"

http://time.com/3953591/pope-francis-bolivia-speech/

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Reply Pope Francis ignites a revolt that will overthrow American capitalism (Original post)
Koinos Jul 2015 OP
peacebird Jul 2015 #1
former9thward Jul 2015 #2
starroute Jul 2015 #5
former9thward Jul 2015 #8
Koinos Jul 2015 #35
hueymahl Jul 2015 #95
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #103
roguevalley Jul 2015 #119
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #128
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #20
SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2015 #31
Lordquinton Jul 2015 #115
SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2015 #131
Lordquinton Jul 2015 #132
SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2015 #142
Lordquinton Jul 2015 #154
SidDithers Jul 2015 #123
SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2015 #130
SidDithers Jul 2015 #133
SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2015 #143
SidDithers Jul 2015 #145
stellanoir Jul 2015 #6
former9thward Jul 2015 #9
Gregorian Jul 2015 #3
msongs Jul 2015 #4
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #21
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #105
roguevalley Jul 2015 #120
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #126
hifiguy Jul 2015 #7
Koinos Jul 2015 #10
hifiguy Jul 2015 #23
Koinos Jul 2015 #29
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #22
Koinos Jul 2015 #28
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #34
Koinos Jul 2015 #37
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #39
Koinos Jul 2015 #41
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #42
Koinos Jul 2015 #51
pnwmom Jul 2015 #43
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #44
pnwmom Jul 2015 #45
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #47
pnwmom Jul 2015 #48
Joe Chi Minh Jul 2015 #117
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #118
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #134
stevenleser Jul 2015 #144
Marrah_G Jul 2015 #151
PeaceNikki Jul 2015 #138
stevenleser Jul 2015 #146
Marrah_G Jul 2015 #150
MannyGoldstein Jul 2015 #11
Hydra Jul 2015 #12
MannyGoldstein Jul 2015 #13
Hydra Jul 2015 #14
KatyMan Jul 2015 #17
kysrsoze Jul 2015 #129
daredtowork Jul 2015 #15
hifiguy Jul 2015 #26
Koinos Jul 2015 #30
hifiguy Jul 2015 #36
daredtowork Jul 2015 #46
Koinos Jul 2015 #52
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #55
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #148
treestar Jul 2015 #58
V0ltairesGh0st Jul 2015 #16
randome Jul 2015 #153
V0ltairesGh0st Jul 2015 #155
jomin41 Jul 2015 #18
Koinos Jul 2015 #32
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #19
msanthrope Jul 2015 #24
Koinos Jul 2015 #38
Octafish Jul 2015 #25
WDIM Jul 2015 #64
Octafish Jul 2015 #69
Koinos Jul 2015 #27
freshwest Jul 2015 #33
Koinos Jul 2015 #40
TBF Jul 2015 #49
Koinos Jul 2015 #50
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #57
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #106
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #135
bluedigger Jul 2015 #53
SidDithers Jul 2015 #54
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #107
MellowDem Jul 2015 #56
WDIM Jul 2015 #59
Koinos Jul 2015 #63
WDIM Jul 2015 #67
Koinos Jul 2015 #70
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jul 2015 #122
hifiguy Jul 2015 #125
Codeine Jul 2015 #60
onenote Jul 2015 #61
Koinos Jul 2015 #66
CanonRay Jul 2015 #62
Codeine Jul 2015 #65
Koinos Jul 2015 #68
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #136
whatthehey Jul 2015 #71
Koinos Jul 2015 #72
whatthehey Jul 2015 #79
Koinos Jul 2015 #88
Koinos Jul 2015 #73
Moonwalk Jul 2015 #112
raouldukelives Jul 2015 #74
Koinos Jul 2015 #76
Deadshot Jul 2015 #75
Koinos Jul 2015 #78
Deadshot Jul 2015 #80
Koinos Jul 2015 #85
LittleBlue Jul 2015 #77
whatthehey Jul 2015 #81
LittleBlue Jul 2015 #90
Koinos Jul 2015 #83
DonCoquixote Jul 2015 #82
Koinos Jul 2015 #84
nolabels Jul 2015 #86
Fearless Jul 2015 #87
Koinos Jul 2015 #91
Fearless Jul 2015 #97
Koinos Jul 2015 #99
Fearless Jul 2015 #100
Koinos Jul 2015 #101
The2ndWheel Jul 2015 #141
Fearless Jul 2015 #147
staggerleem Jul 2015 #89
Koinos Jul 2015 #92
MineralMan Jul 2015 #93
Koinos Jul 2015 #96
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jul 2015 #94
Koinos Jul 2015 #98
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #102
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jul 2015 #109
Koinos Jul 2015 #111
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #121
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jul 2015 #124
F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #127
Koinos Jul 2015 #110
PeaceNikki Jul 2015 #139
sabrina 1 Jul 2015 #104
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #137
DawgHouse Jul 2015 #108
Warren DeMontague Jul 2015 #113
Helen Borg Jul 2015 #114
Lordquinton Jul 2015 #116
Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #140
Jamastiene Jul 2015 #149
randome Jul 2015 #152
Rex Jul 2015 #156

Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:10 PM

1. I do like this Pope!

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:14 PM

2. Is this revolution going to overthrow abortion rights also?

That is what this Pope wants. Or do you ignore that?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #2)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:48 PM

5. That's not part of his revolution

If you haven't noticed, he's been tiptoeing around social issues like divorce and homosexuality, trying to downplay any differences, at the same time as he pushes resistance to capitalism and protecting the planet for all he's worth.

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Response to starroute (Reply #5)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:58 PM

8. You have not noticed.

In his rant on capitalism he blasted abortion. I guess people like to only see what they like.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:24 AM

35. That is very true.

But it is unreasonable to ignore what he says about the environment and capitalism, simply because he states other things with which we disagree. If I discounted everything any person said, just because I disagreed with some of what he or she said, I would never listen to anyone at all. I would also never finish any book I started. Moreover, I would use "ignore" for everyone on DU, including myself, since there are many times I disagree with myself. If a person is wrong about some things, that does not mean he is wrong about everything.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #35)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:49 PM

95. +1000

Everyone has their pet issues, and abortion is a big one. But lets give credit where credit is due. The pope is right on a lot of issues these days.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #95)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:36 PM

103. Abortion a pet issue?

Jesus. We really are screwed. Revolution ain't happening with that attitude.

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #103)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:57 PM

119. revolution isn't happening when we demand purity. who thot

You would here a Pope say anything he's saying? It will happen too. All of the chains but he's leading against the tide. I will go with him.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #119)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:18 PM

128. Purity, like gender equality and sexuality rights?

Damn right I want my ponies and rainbows. If he was saying this shit about black people, everyone here would be freaking out.

We can acknowledge the truth of some of his words without celebrating him. That is what I object to.

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Response to starroute (Reply #5)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:27 PM

20. Like fucking hell he has.

Day two of his visit to the Philippines was 'don't let gay people marry or adopt children'

Tiptoeing my ass. You're selectively blind to the vicious mysogynistic and homophobic shit he spews around the world in broad daylight.

He's also not if 'igniting' shit but that's a different issue.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #20)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:00 AM

31. I think he plans on giving poeple like you...

 

a pony...

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:44 PM

115. Women's health and sexual equality = pony

Lemme check the url again.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #115)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:21 AM

131. What?

 

Jump to conclusions often???

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #131)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 02:27 AM

132. So then what prompted your "You want a pony" comment?

Cause the context that you made it in was about those topics, which you compared to wanting a pony. Care to explain that?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #132)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 11:41 AM

142. When the devil...

 

does something good - I am happy

Every helping hand is welcome in the great fights.

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #142)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:51 PM

154. Well at least we agree the pope is skin to the devil.

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 07:35 PM

123. Oh FFS...

You know, when you go LeftofLeft, you come all the way around to the Right.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #123)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:19 AM

130. you are so easy

 

ffs

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #130)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:10 AM

133. Welcome back...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #133)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 11:43 AM

143. real question

 

if someone bad does a good thing - are you happy for the good thing?

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #143)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 11:50 AM

145. Depends on how bad the bad person is...nt

Sid

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Response to former9thward (Reply #2)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:51 PM

6. This Pope has surprised us in so many ways. . .

Can't be so sure that he would lack the compassion to fathom the complexity of circumstances involved in a challenged pregnancy.

If he's taking down Opus Dei, he could perhaps, totally see the obvious fallacy of prioritizing fetal rights over human rights.

Just guessing.

He washed the feet of an imprisoned Muslim woman. sheesh.

fyi : Am not Catholic

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Response to stellanoir (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:05 PM

9. That is not the Pope's position.

Francis offered an olive branch of sorts to the more doctrine-minded conservatives in the church, denouncing abortions as a symptom of today's "throw-away culture" and encouraging Catholic doctors to refuse to perform them.

During his South Korean tour, Francis stopped to pray silently at a monument for aborted babies in South Korea. The country has banned abortions except in cases of rape, incest, or severe genetic disorders, but anti-abortion activists say authorities have turned a blind eye to the practice for decades.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-francis-issues-strong-silent-statement-abortion-article-1.1905659

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:18 PM

3. Pope versus Koch- Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

I'd like to see economic change done in a way that doesn't require the unrest. And it is possible.

It's the notion of profit sharing versus the boss taking more of the benefits of the combined efforts. It's not a change that should require unrest, but I know the human species, and we'd rather fight than switch. Only psychotic nuts need 153 meter yachts. I'll take a society that isn't in a permanent state of conflict due to economic injustice.

Prophet sharing?

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:41 PM

4. the catholic church is a capitalist institution. is he going to over throw himself lol nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:28 PM

21. We have a winner.

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:38 PM

105. The ignorance of capitalist mechanics in this thread is astounding. nt

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #105)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:59 PM

120. some people hate religion so much even this is nothing to them

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #120)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:51 PM

126. I am glad he says this.

I am tired of people treating it as if he is some great man to say it. Great persons have a love and respect for humanity. He does not for me. His hypocrisy is galling, and people's blindness to his bigotry and his hypocrisy is unfortunate, at the least.

And I have no hatred for religion, but I am no fan of the hatred it causes. The pope continues to contribute to it.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:51 PM

7. He is miles in front of any politician

 

on the two biggest issues of our day - predatory capitalism and global climate change. These issues literally threaten to destroy the planet as a home for human beings.

I know,he has a long way to go on many issues, but the mere fact that it is THESE issues on which he is most forcefully and repeatedly speaking out earns him a ton of respect from this atheist.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #7)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:30 PM

10. Predatory capitalism and global climate change

I agree. The problem is that too many people in our country exalt capitalism and deny climate change. The pope's visit to the US will be very disturbing to these people. Hopefully, some of them will wake up.

I'm reading Naomi Klein's excellent book, "This Changes Everything." I can see why the pope invited her to Rome. They are on the same page about capitalism and climate change.

This pope is a very dangerous man to the oligarchs.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #10)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 10:13 PM

23. That is a hell of a book

 

and it thoroughly scared me. It's clear Pope Frank is very serious about these very important issues if he is working with her.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #7)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:31 PM

22. He's the leader of the single wealthiest private entity on the planet

And you think he's going to reform income inequality. You're funny.

Vatican came out last year and said it was going to go carbon neutral by installing solar panels and planting a forest in Europe. Then the pope came forward in his encyclical and said carbon credits are worthless. One of these entities is dumb.

He talks about reducing consumption, and then he flies himself, his security staff and administration plus armored motorcade to South America to bitch about same sex marriage.

Please don't be willfully blind about the pope.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 11:50 PM

28. According to Naomi Klein, carbon credits are useless.

See Naomi Klein, "This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. the Climate."

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Response to Koinos (Reply #28)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:14 AM

34. I tend to agree.

Still doesn't resolve the paradox between the popes encyclical and the vaticans PR offensive.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:35 AM

37. As you know, the pope is at odds with many in the Vatican.

No one person can change everything all at once, not even the pope, just as no one president can change the United States all by himself. The Vatican has many problems. I believe that it was an unintended consequence that Francis got elected. Many bishops do not like him, just as they did not like Pope John XXIII. All that ecumenism and inclusiveness did not sit well with them. In any case, the pope falls short on certain issues, but he is way ahead of most of the conservative Catholic establishment. And he is on the right side when it comes to climate change and capitalism, I believe. It is refreshing to have an interpretation of the Gospels that opposes the Wall Street Jesus of the right wing.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:48 AM

39. Unfortunately his homophobia and sexism has remained consistent before and after his election.

And of course he makes no noises whatever toward population growth/family planning which is the biggest and easiest first issue to tackle for human carbon footprint

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #39)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:18 AM

41. I won't disagree with you on that.

But I think a different sort of population control is in order. According to Naomi Klein, the 500 million wealthiest individuals on earth use half of the world's resources and cause half of the world's carbon emissions.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #41)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:50 AM

42. its a statistic that needs to be addressed, thats for sure.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #42)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:40 AM

51. You won't hear that statistic very much from the wealthy.

The usual view is that we have to reduce the population among the very poor who consume very little.

The United States has 5% of the world's population, and it consumes 25% of the world's fossil fuels.

The United States wastes more food each day than the poor around the world have to eat.

In some parts of Africa, each person consumes the equivalent of less than one barrel of oil per year.

Worldwide, the wealthy have too much (manufacturing uses fossil fuels -- materials and power), consume too much, waste too much, pollute too much.

Unfortunately, capitalism requires continual economic growth, which in turn requires increased use of fossil fuels and increased production of mostly plastic crap (made from petroleum) we don't need.

In order to save the planet, we need negative economic growth and a simpler way of life. That would spell the end of capitalism.

I once read that, in order for everyone on earth to have the "standard of living" of average Americans, we would need the equivalent of five planets with the resources of earth.

The earth and capitalism are on a collision course.

ETA: Another interesting statistic: Half of the fossil fuels used by an automobile in its "lifetime" are used in manufacturing it (energy and materials).

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #22)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:55 AM

43. Not true. Vatican City is worth less than some individual Americans.

The Vatican doesn't own individual parishes across the world. They are owned by the people in the Dioceses.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #43)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:37 AM

44. The vaticans budget is larger than you think.

Still, the pope is the head of the rcc. The rcc firewalls and hides accounting for all sorts of things.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #44)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:46 AM

45. So? The Pope doesn't control property owned by individual Catholics,

individual Orders, individual Universities, or individual parishes. It is absurd to pretend that it does.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #45)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:11 AM

47. Certainly not on paper, no.

Still had more than Apple corporation's revenue in the US in 2012. (around 170bn)

What do you suppose will happen if the RCC fractures over some issue? The Episcopalian church is similarly configured sans the foreign head of state CEO. They successfully sued to take over former episcopal properties and branding when some churches broke away.

Smoke and mirror accounting.. remember, I work in corporate finance.

http://www.layman.org/news46c2/

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #47)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:19 AM

48. The Pope/Vatican still won't own Notre Dame or any of the other valuable properties they don't own now.

And there have already been orders of nuns that left the Church and took their property with them. It has happened and could happen again.

http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/vatican-city-jason-berry-holy-see-looming-inquisition-reveals-fractured-catholic-church

In the early 1950s, Holy Wisdom Monastery was a Catholic girls’ school run by the Sisters of St. Benedict. In time, the school closed, and in 1966 the sisters, spurred on by the reformist ideals of the Second Vatican Council, transformed it into a retreat center, one that thrived in the confident spirit of a church opening its windows to the modern world — the metaphor used by Pope John XXIII in summoning the world’s bishops to the council in Rome.

In the 1990s, the nuns there established a strong interfaith spirit, they undertook a rigorous environmental effort toward “sustainability’ and they welcomed gay couples into the church and its services. By the year 2000, the nuns transformed the monastery into an ecumenical institution, welcoming a Presbyterian woman minister. And that was the point at which they crossed an irreversible line. Having a Protestant woman ministering in the community threw their identity as a Catholic women’s order into question.

The sisters decided to leave the diocese and end their formal affiliation with the Catholic Church. As they saw it, they were maintaining the monastic ideal of Benedictine spirituality by opening the place to others. In the process of leaving the Catholic Church, the nuns made their own power move, of sorts. They held onto the deed to the land with the position that their faith community was true to the interfaith spirit of Vatican II. Their message, though never formally stated, was sledgehammer blunt: the male hierarchy has gone backwards and we’re moving forward. They quite literally held their ground.


Here's something else you might not know if you haven't studied church history. The Church is barred by the Concordat that established Vatican City from selling off the artworks held there. They are essentially kept in trust there for the benefit of all Europe.

And I'd rather they keep those artworks safe and open for public viewing than sell them to the Trumps and Kochs of the world.

http://caritasetveritas.com/2013/03/the-myth-of-vatican-wealth-on-helping-the-poor/

Vatican City as its own independent nation state was created through a concordat with Italy in 1929 (the Lateran Concordat), which made Vatican City the smallest territorial state in the world. Article 18 of that concordat states the following: “The artistic and scientific treasures existing within the Vatican City and the Lateran Palace shall remain open to scholars and visitors, although the Holy See shall be free to regulate the admission of the public thereto” (you can read the concordat online here: http://biblelight.net/treaty.htm). The Holy See would automatically violate its right to be sovereign if it overstepped these bounds. That is, since the property, art, etc., are seen to be the patrimony of all of Europe, and the Italian state obviously has concern for it, Italy would be well within its legal rights to take the Vatican back should the pope ever try to sell the Vatican property or artistic (etc.) patrimony (each part of which is officially labeled as worth one euro each)—which the pope cannot legally do.




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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #22)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:43 PM

117. Can't you people understand that sex isn't everything? It's not even anywhere

near the top of the list in this thread.

Can't you discern a hierarchy of the most lethally threatening issues facing the world, and your own bedroom-orientated hobby-horse? Or pony, as the case may be. What's the matter with you?

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Response to Joe Chi Minh (Reply #117)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:54 PM

118. I don't hitch my wagon to a bigot. Pope's a bigot.

There's nothing the matter with me. I don't choose asshole bigots as fellow travelers.

And again, the pope's approach to curbing climate change is antithetical to his position on family planning. So he's undermining himself.
He's also undermining all environmentalists everywhere when he calls for reduction in consumption, and then he conspicuously consumes, highlighting himself as a massive hypocrite.

Sex isn't everything, but I think civil rights are a pretty good starting place for everything.

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Response to Joe Chi Minh (Reply #117)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:11 AM

134. What a vile, disgusting post. LGBT human rights are not a 'bedroom hobby horse' no matter what

 

Francis tells you.
You reflect his majestic hatefulness. One of the most starkly and viciously bigoted posts I have ever read on DU. And 'pony' again. What privileged bigotry this is.

Thanks for showing us all what the mind of a Francis follower is really like. I note the rest of his fans have not taken any issue with your filthy invective, and that also reflects the nature of this man, his faith and his anti gay and anti woman views.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #134)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 11:48 AM

144. You see it here, right? This is a parallel to what is happening with some white straight

 

male progressives and Bernie. If you seem to be for the progressive economic agenda, it whitewashes (pun intended) everything else as far as supporters of Francis and Bernie are concerned. In Bernie's case, he himself is not bigoted, but too many of his supporters exhibit a toxic brew of white privilege in how they responded to BLM. In Francis' case, he is bigoted against LGBT but his supporters simply don't care.

In both cases, because their economic policies cancel everything else out for some folks.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #134)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 01:32 PM

151. And a jury voted 5-2 to keep this vile, disgusting post.

Hopefully the Admins will step in.

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Response to Joe Chi Minh (Reply #117)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:39 AM

138. "You people"? Can't *you* understand the importance of reproductive freedom in relation

to poverty and climate change?

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Response to Joe Chi Minh (Reply #117)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:16 PM

146. Jury Results: 2-5 to keep

 

Hard to understand how five folks were so blase about such a nasty comment about LGBT rights...


Can't you people understand that sex isn't everything? It's not even anywhere
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6999636

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

LGBT rights are bedroom-orientated hobby-horse? That is pretty vile homophobia

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:06 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: These alerts just get dumber and dumber
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Marriage equality is about equal rights and human rights, not sex. I can appreciate some of the poster's points, but that dismissal of equal rights is not okay.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

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Response to Joe Chi Minh (Reply #117)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 01:29 PM

150. How dare you say that

LGBT rights are not about SEX and it is certainly not a god damn fucking PONY.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:31 PM

11. Let us pray. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #11)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:40 PM

12. Lord FSM, we come to you with bowls empty, and full hearts...

Please full them with your pasta'y goodness, give us this day, our daily garlic bread...

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Response to Hydra (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:43 PM

13. !!!

 



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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #13)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:55 PM

14. Glad to be of service :p



Keep reminding everyone not to feed the trolls

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Response to Hydra (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:13 PM

17. when I first scanned your title

I swear it said "with bowels empty" 😁

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:22 PM

129. Amen

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:02 PM

15. When do we see some worldly results?

Awesome popitude, but are ther enough hardcore Catholics in the US for this message to matter?

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Response to daredtowork (Reply #15)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 10:33 PM

26. It can't hoit!

 

And given that he is right about the two greatest existential threats to humanity I welcome his commitment to them. If the planet is damaged beyond repair little else matters.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 11:56 PM

30. Climate change is or should be our number one concern.

We have no place else to live. If our planet becomes uninhabitable, other causes won't mean much.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:31 AM

36. It is just that simple.

 

And every voice that pounds home that message is one that is needed.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:10 AM

46. People with a job and food security always say that.

They can afford to think about "future" generations. They may also be in the class that is first to end up with their head on a spike when the social revolution of the truly desperate comes, lol.

Abstract logic cannot trump immediate human needs no matter how "true" it is. Yes, the earth may die in a generation if we don't do something, but the person whose children will die tomorrow doesn't give a rats ass. And if you think you can blow that weak and vulnerable person off, there's a strong likelihood of them banding with others in the same condition.

This Pope is wise because he realize both the social/economic issues and the climate issues need to be tackled together.

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Response to daredtowork (Reply #46)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:14 AM

52. Good points.

That is why the pope's encyclical is full of references to the impact of climate change and capitalism on the poor.

It is interesting that Wall Street Jesus "Christians" get most of their thunder from certain parts of the Old Testament and the Letters of Paul and the Book of Revelations in the New Testament. The Jesus of the Gospels who attends to the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, and the oppressed is conveniently ignored. The pope wants to restore the "social justice" Jesus. Jesus and the early Christians were "socialists." That in itself constitutes a threat to oligarchs who worked hard to invent and promote a new "pro-business" religion.

See this interesting account:

"How Big Business Invented the Theology of 'Christian Libertarianism' and the Gospel of Free Markets: The inside history of how Evangelical preachers were used to infuse society with the economic dogma that plagues us today."

http://www.alternet.org/belief/salvation-big-business-how-pr-industry-inspired-public-acts-faith

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Response to Koinos (Reply #52)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:35 AM

55. His encyclical is a long raft of bullshit he will not follow up with action wrapped around anti

 

choice dogmatic insanity. He is opposed to all forms of contraception. Anyone who holds that position is not helping the environment in any way. Get real. The Pope is an anti gay preacher and an anti choice activist, he's duped bunches of you very easily, letting the rest of us know you are not trustworthy allies, nor allies at all.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #55)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:40 PM

148. It's made a lot clear to me, that's for sure.

Just as has a lot of the recent issues. Yuck.

letting the rest of us know you are not trustworthy allies, nor allies at all.

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Response to daredtowork (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:43 AM

58. Um, we have to revolt

Sitting around waiting for the Pope to destroy capitalism on his own?

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:03 PM

16. "Occupy" will never die.

 

It was here before us, and will be here long after we are all gone.

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Response to V0ltairesGh0st (Reply #16)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 02:30 PM

153. It may not be dead but it is 'gone'. Mindless optimism serves no one's goals.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #153)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:29 PM

155. My point is...

 

historically someone has always "occupied" ... the voice of the ignored revolutionaries will never die. France, Russia, China, United States have revolutionary wars to prove it.... The 2011-12 movement here in the US is just hibernating just waiting to wake up again to say ....

"We Told you So....motherfucker..... guess who's back!"

Time is irrelevant when the cause is just.


edit1: please don't imply that I am "mindless", in the future just because you have a different opinion. That's just god damn rude.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:13 PM

18. Not a Catholic but

Go Francis!!! And please watch your back.

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Response to jomin41 (Reply #18)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:01 AM

32. I'm not a Catholic either, but we need all the help we can get to save the planet.

This pope has a lot of influence, and it will be interesting to see what happens when he addresses the Congress. The climate change deniers and Koch puppets will squirm a lot. Will republicans heckle him? I wonder.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 09:21 PM

19. And yet the Vatican won't even divest of carbon stocks, they just bullshit people with rhetoric

 

in order to get liberals to support an anti gay and anti choice activist and legitimize his agenda. Notice this article does not contain even one full quote from Francis to support the insane assertions the author makes. Why would that be, exactly? Because the author is characterizing Francis' words to suit an agenda, not reporting what the old homophobe actually said. It's dishonest.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 10:15 PM

24. The head of a bank will overthrow capitalism? Let me sit the fuck down....nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #24)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:43 AM

38. I wouldn't compare Pope Francis with Jamie Dimon.

Their value systems are quite different. Pope Francis is the opposite of greedy.

And he isn't the head of the Vatican bank. The head of the Vatican bank is Jean-Baptiste Douville de Franssu.

ETA: But, in any case, it won't be the pope who overthrows capitalism. Capitalism will be overthrown by the masses who suffer from capitalism. The pope is encouraging people to rebel.

In the end, the contradictions of capitalism will destroy capitalism.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 10:22 PM

25. He knows his BFEE: ''Dung of the Devil.''

"Money trumps peace." -- George W Bush, pretzeldentin press conference White House April 14, 2007.
And not a single one of the callow, cowed press corpse saw fit to ask a follow-up, let alone gasp: "What the hell?".
And then Bush laughs. Heh heh heh.



Gold Star mom Cindy Sheehan tried to bring it to our nation's attention. Few others, if anyone, saw fit to comment.

As for where American's sulphurous and entrepreneurial spirit of war came from: Poppy: Bush Sr told the FBI he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.

Pope Francis message is unambiguous: “Unbridled capitalism” has become a “subtle dictatorship,” is now the very “dung of the devil.”

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Response to Octafish (Reply #25)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:20 AM

64. Profits of Death. If we took the profit out of war

Wars would end.
Destroy the MIC and their money machine of lies destruction and greed.

All defense contractors (the builders of the WMDs) should be non profit. They shouldnt be lining their pockets with the blood of our men and women and civilians around the world.

Money trumps Peace indeed in the mind of the homicidal maniacs that run out government and the military.

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Response to WDIM (Reply #64)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 11:04 AM

69. Agree 100-percent.

Defense industries should be nationalized -- profit the nation, not the few. Take Carlyle Group, inside trading, and wall-to-wall domestic surveillance:



Behind the Curtain: Booz Allen Hamilton and its Owner, The Carlyle Group

Written by Bob Adelmann
The New American; June 13, 2013

According to writers Thomas Heath and Marjorie Censer at the Washington Post, The Carlyle Group and its errant child, Booz Allen Hamilton (BAH), have a public relations problem, thanks to NSA leaker and former BAH employee Edward Snowden. By the time top management at BAH learned that one of their top level agents had gone rogue, and terminated his employment, it was too late.

For years Carlyle had, according to the Post, “nurtured a reputation as a financially sophisticated asset manager that buys and sells everything from railroads to oil refineries”; but now the light from the Snowden revelations has revealed nothing more than two companies, parent and child, “bound by the thread of turning government secrets into profits.”

And have they ever. When The Carlyle Group bought BAH back in 2008, it was totally dependent upon government contracts in the fields of information technology (IT) and systems engineering for its bread and butter. But there wasn't much butter: After two years the company’s gross revenues were $5.1 billion but net profits were a minuscule $25 million, close to a rounding error on the company’s financial statement. In 2012, however, BAH grossed $5.8 billion and showed earnings of $219 million, nearly a nine-fold increase in net revenues and a nice gain in value for Carlyle.

Unwittingly, the Post authors exposed the real reason for the jump in profitability: close ties and interconnected relationships between top people at Carlyle and BAH, and the agencies with which they are working. The authors quoted George Price, an equity analyst at BB&T Capital: "[Booz Allen has] got a great brand, they've focused over time on hiring top people, including bringing on people who have a lot of senior government experience." (Emphasis added.)

For instance, James Clapper had a stint at BAH before becoming the current Director of National Intelligence; George Little consulted with BAH before taking a position at the Central Intelligence Agency; John McConnell, now vice chairman at BAH, was director of the National Security Agency (NSA) in the ‘90s before moving up to director of national intelligence in 2007; Todd Park began his career with BAH and now serves as the country's chief technology officer; James Woolsey, currently a senior vice president at BAH, served in the past as director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and so on.

BAH has had more than a little problem with self-dealing and conflicts of interest over the years. For instance in 2006 the European Commission asked the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Privacy International (PI) to investigate BAH’s involvement with President George Bush’s SWIFT surveillance program, which was viewed by that administration as “just another tool” in its so-called “War on Terror.” The only problem is that it was illegal, as it violated U.S., Belgian, and European privacy laws. BAH was right in the middle of it. According to the ACLU/PI report,

Though Booz Allen’s role is to verify that the access to the SWIFT data is not abused, its relationship with the U.S. Government calls its objectivity significantly into question. (Emphasis added.)

Among Booz Allen’s senior consulting staff are several former members of the intelligence community, including a former Director of the CIA and a former director of the NSA.


As noted by Barry Steinhardt, an ACLU director, “It’s bad enough that the [Bush] administration is trying to hold out a private company as a substitute for genuine checks and balances on its surveillance activities. But of all companies to perform audits on a secret surveillance program, it would be difficult to find one less objective and more intertwined with the U.S. government security establishment.” (Emphasis added.)

CONTINUED w Links n Privatized INTEL...

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/15696-behind-the-curtain-booz-allen-hamilton-and-its-owner-the-carlyle-group



And to think asshats with emoticons wonder why this matters for democracy.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 11:11 PM

27. Pope Francis' speech in Bolivia where he referred to capitalism as the "dung of the devil."

‘Dung of the devil': Pope Francis denounces capitalism, greed and the pursuit of money

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/dung-of-the-devil-pope-francis-denounces-capitalism-greed-and-the-pursuit-of-money

Some excerpts:

He called for the poor to be given the “sacred rights” of work, housing and land. “Let us not be afraid to say it: we want change, real change, structural change,” he said.

The 78-year-old pontiff criticized an economic system that “has imposed the mentality of profit at any price, with no concern for social exclusion or the destruction of nature” and singled out for criticism “corporations, loan agencies, certain ’free trade’ treaties, and the imposition of measures of ’austerity’ which always tighten the belt of workers and the poor.”


And a link to Pope Francis' encyclical, Laudato Si’: On Care for Our Common Home:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:11 AM

33. Unbridled capitalism” has become a “subtle dictatorship,”

This Pope and I are on the same wavelength on this. It's why I can't stand Libertarians.

The only liberty and freedom they are working on is for the rich and powerful, with the rest of being held in servitutde to market forces are rigged.

There is no such thing as a free market except in the public mind. In each nation, the starved government or the powerful determine what the market will be like. The fabled input of consumer choice to affect the market or social power has failed over and over.

People don't want to beg and be screwed over for the essentials of life while they can clearly see the wasteful way of the rich and powerful are busy destroyting the planet and the living on it. And having a great time.

They have NO real in decision making.Things that keep them sick, poor, anxious and worse.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #33)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:52 AM

40. "Free" as in "out of control" markets

Letting the fate of the earth and the lives of human beings be determined by the "invisible hand" of "free markets" was and is a very bad idea. Moreover, nature has the last inning, no matter what the bean counters say.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:07 AM

49. As much as I agree with him

I hope he has a good security detail.

There are Catholics now who are anti-choice and do vote republican. But I do know that this is one group that was traditionally maligned by the WASPs of this country if you go back even half a decade. The hard-core Baptists et al down here in Texas barely except Methodist doctrine much less Catholic. It will be interesting to see if that sort of bigotry rears it's head again with this Pope's activism.

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Response to TBF (Reply #49)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:20 AM

50. Threats against popes have been very common.

Threats against this pope are liable to be increased. Global capitalists don't want him to upset their climate change denial scheme. Many deniers may be swayed to accept climate science. Many cheerleaders for unregulated capitalism may change their minds as well. Education is the oligarchs' worst enemy.

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Response to TBF (Reply #49)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:43 AM

57. Wow, I just read your post about inheriting a bunch of wealth, so you are another of the affluent

 

straights who agree with the anti gay and anti choice preacher because of 'economic issues'. So you have excess, all of your rights and you do not intend to give what you have to the poor anymore than Francis does. 'We legitimize bigoted anti choice activists because they also speak of the poor while not really doing jack for the poor, like we do!'

Your Francis says LGBT people are disordered and our rights come from Satan. That's what you are endorsing. But of course you are straight and well off, so none of it matters to you or anyone you care about.
You side with those who denigrate my family. You need to own that.

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Response to TBF (Reply #49)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:41 PM

106. I am curious.

You are a socialist--how do you ignore the stunning amounts of bigotry still stemming from his church? Economics alone (and what weak overtures there are) will do absolutely nothing for a revolution, should revolution be what's necessary. He is dividing us as much as any other. Speaking the truth about one thing does not help. Rand Paul is right on drones--I am fully against Rand Paul.

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #106)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:18 AM

135. He will not answer. On DU, many of the people who employ socialist rhetoric are wealthy, they say

 

'I am a prole' but they make 400K. They say 'I am for the poor' but in fact they live off the profits from invested capital they inherited.
They adopt the 'socialist' facade in order to speak only of money, which is what rich people do, but they want to sound 'not Republican' so they claim to be talking about everyone's money. But they mean their own.
This is why so many of them strongly promote anti gay, anti choice religious activists like Francis. Many of them just love him. Ask them how they dress up the bigotry and misogyny to fit a revolutionary paradigm and they fall silent. If they speak their minds, the jig is up, their goose is cooked, the truth is out, the marks are wise....

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:25 AM

53. I need to clean my glasses.

For a second there, I thought the header said "Russ Francis".



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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:33 AM

54. No, it won't...

Pope Francis is the only real political leader that matters this year.


No, he's the head of a religion that, thankfully, grows more and more irrelevant with every passing day.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #54)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:42 PM

107. They are deifying him as best as they can.

Your statement is spot on.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:41 AM

56. Hardly...

Pope Francis will have no impact on American capitalism, and a bigoted, misogynistic homophobe isn't a great leader to have for an issue anyways, especially when all those positions support the status quo.

The Pope, like most other leaders, only inspires those who already agree with him, and they only hear what they want to hear from him anyways, and ignore what they disagree with him on. And it's a good thing too, as many Catholics ignore his views on birth control, abortion, and same sex marriage.

The Pope is just doing his PR for a church that relies on childhood indoctrination for the vast majority of its membership and which is still spiraling downwards regardless.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:49 AM

59. Jesus did preach against vulture capitalism.

Jesus preached for the forgivness of debt.
He preached against consumerism
He preached to give and expect nothing in return
He preached for the love of fellow humans and to take care of the very least among us.

What amazes me is the christian right is a contradiction Jesus was far left. Id say a socialist or communist. Real communism in that the community assures the success of all its members and the community shares equal amongst all its members. A collective of souls that genuinely care for eachother.

Yet so many greedy capitalist war profiteers claim to be christians. George Dubya, H Clinton, B Obama, Dick, Joe and John and almost all the members of congress and the senate are complicit in the greedy gains of the war profiteers the profits of death.


This article seems to put alot of words into the popes mouth. Part of it seems like hey we need to shut this pope up look at what he is saying. Then the article paraphrases what he says and doesnt do many direct quotes. But i am interested to see the speech the pope gives to congress. Cant wait to see the climate deniers like Inhofe not show up. You know there will be theatrics.

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Response to WDIM (Reply #59)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:17 AM

63. All good points.

The article is posted on "Market Watch," and it may be partly intended to send out an alarm to big business about the genuine impact the pope's message will have. On the other hand, much of the author's interpretation is based on things the pope has been saying in Latin America. There is also strong language in the pope's encyclical about exploitation of the poor by the wealthy.

I will try to link to more texts of Pope Francis' own words, as I have time to fetch them. I have already posted the link to his encyclical in this thread.

I am sure of one thing: American profiteers are not ignoring this guy. I too look forward to his speech to Congress. It will make a lot of congresspersons squirm in their seats and will produce a plethora of post-speech propaganda against climate science and "socialism." Anything that ticks off republicans and reduces their hold on sheeple's minds will be a pleasure to behold.

Many of the pope's positions are indefensible, but I'm not going to write off what he says about saving the earth and confronting capitalism. Those messages are just too important. You can be sure that Naomi Klein (secular humanist feminist) disagrees with many of his positions, but she sees him as an ally in the cause of saving the earth. We'll take all the allies we can get, especially since even many liberals in our country have a half-hearted response to the global threat.

The truth is that many Americans don't want to give up their "high-consumption" way of life. That includes both liberals and conservatives.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #63)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:37 AM

67. All "Christian" ministers should be preaching against heartless capitalism

And this system of consumerism through debt.

I think the sermon on the mount should be one of the main teachings of the Christian Church. Debt cancelation, nonviolence, not objectifying women, not mindless consuming and taking more than you need, giving freely to the poor and unfortunate, uplifting our fellow humans, feeding the hungry, not being greedy, not being pious or holier then thou, anti-war, anti-murder, forgiveness and love even your enemy. It is all in there.

I dont go to church often but i have never seen a minister stand in front of his congregation and teach probably one of the most important teachings Jesus ever gave.

They mostly teach the old testament and then at christmas and easter it is the birth and death of christ. And it is not about the birth and death of Jesus it is about ehat he did and what he said and that part is usually skipped over because it doesnt fit with modern day model of debt, exploitation, greed, individualism, consumerism, and war.

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Response to WDIM (Reply #67)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 11:12 AM

70. Excellent post WDIM!

Taking the Gospels seriously would go a long way in promoting social justice activism. I do not understand why so many Christian ministers cow before right wing snake oil salesmen who claim to be "Christians."

Maybe some of the lessons in the Gospels are too uncomfortable and inconvenient for them. Like giving away all you have to the poor before becoming a disciple.

The pope is trying to raise consciousness of the Christian "social justice" (socialist) point of view as it is inextricably linked to respect for our "mother earth" (his term). Continued extraction of earth's non-renewable resources and destruction of the earth's ecosystem for unlimited profit is a "sin," in his eyes.

As a humanist, I have no problem with these "environmentalist" and "socialist" messages.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #70)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 07:24 PM

122. The reason Christian ministers cow before right wingers is simple,

it hurts their bottom line with collections and if they promote social justice activism, the right wingers leave the church altogether, they don't want anything to do with those "bleeding heart liberals".

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Response to WDIM (Reply #67)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:34 PM

125. The Sermon on the Mount and the art

 

are the only worthwhile things that ever came out of xtianity, IMO.

But anyone who does not applaud Pope Frank's stand on capitalism and the climate is just being short sighted, and that is putting it mildly.

This is the only fucking planet we have, and if it is enslaved on the way to becoming uninhabitable not one other thing matters. NOTHING.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:53 AM

60. I'll look to people who aren't in charge

 

of a global pedophile ring and a fucking international bank for my progressive and anti-capitalist philosophy pointers, thanks.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:14 AM

61. Oh, boy. Another Paul Farrell prediction

You would think that after predicting in May 2010 that there was a stock market crash "dead ahead" and urging people to get out of the market before the imminent drop from around 10,000 to under 6700, he would just crawl into a hole with other notable prognosticators, like Dick Morris. Both short term and long term, Farrell is clueless. (His predicted 2010 crash? From the time he made his prediction to the end of the year, the market climbed from 10,000 to over 11,500. Today, its' hovering around 17,900, which means that, if you were foolish enough to heed his prediction in May 2010 and "get liquid", you pisseed away a nice chunk of retirement change).

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Response to onenote (Reply #61)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:34 AM

66. It is all about the threat of socialism to the "elite."

I agree with you that Paul Farrell is an imperfect vehicle, but I believe he has hit upon the essence of the threat of "social justice" Christianity to oligarchy: It is socialism, pure and simple, and Farrell lays out a number of factors in that regard.

One of the reasons I posted this article was its emphasis on socialism as a real threat to capitalism. Stirring up a rebellion among the poorest, most underprivileged, and most oppressed of the world's people is the thing that global capitalism fears the most.

When it comes to economists' predictions about upturns and downturns, I believe that choosing red or white on a casino table is about as useful.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:16 AM

62. Does anyone really think they'll let him live to accomplish this?

Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't...the powers that be have too much to lose to let one person lead a revolution.

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Response to CanonRay (Reply #62)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:21 AM

65. He's not leading any fucking revolution.

 

He's doing bang-up PR work for an antiquated and dying global power network, and far too many on the Left are so desperate to hear the right noises being made that they suck down his bullshit like cool water on a hot day.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #65)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 10:48 AM

68. He has more influence worldwide than you think.

But we could certainly use more religious and secular leaders who speak out loud and clear about the danger of global capitalism to the earth and its people.

How many political leaders really view climate change as an urgent matter that should have been addressed a long time ago?

How many religious leaders are making a big public splash with this sort of activism?

Finally, how many religious and political leaders have a global audience?

Our leadership in this country has done a half-hearted job of sounding the alarm.

The "why" is well spelled out in Naomi Klein's book. Conservatives are in denial about climate science, because they understand the consequences of climate change for capitalism. Liberals accept climate science, but they are in denial about the consequences of climate change for capitalism and our way of life.

Liberal Americans want to "save the earth" and "keep the consumption party going" at the same time. Not. Going. To. Happen.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #68)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:27 AM

136. He's a preacher. All Popes preach. Benedict preached about globalization and poverty too.

 

A preacher traveling the world to rail against LGBT families, reproductive choice and wasteful habits is not an activist. He's a preacher.

Any 'movement' that holds up some minorities for denigration and discrimination, which denies to women full and complete equality in all matters is in no way, shape or form a socialist movement, a revolutionary movement or a progressive movement. Bigoted, atavistic politics is not progressive.
To those of you who stand with a hate monger willingly over 'other things he says' please notice that among the very worst Republicans you will find some saying some things with which you agree. Rand Paul, he does not like NSA spying, he's still a right wing asshole. Sure we agree on something. Big fucking deal. I agree with Rick Perry that Trump is a jerk, and yet I think Perry is also a jerk. See how that works?
Do you love John McCain and promote him because he's right about campaign finance reform so the rest of his insanity is of no concern, we focus on the one good bit, call him our leader and tout him to the skies?

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 11:16 AM

71. utter nonsense

This split-personality whining about poverty from the greatest poverty-enabling/sustaining entity on earth will not make the slightest difference whatsoever to US politics.

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #71)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 11:33 AM

72. Some statistics for you to put that into persepective

Forbes Billionaires: Full List Of The 500 Richest People In The World 2015

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2015/03/02/forbes-billionaires-full-list-of-the-500-richest-people-in-the-world-2015/

The world's biggest public companies:

http://www.forbes.com/global2000/list/#tab

Estimated wealth of the Vatican -- ten to Fifteen billion dollars:

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

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Response to Koinos (Reply #72)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:26 PM

79. I'm not sure what the value of their holdings has to do with it though

And I would have to see details to believe that the church has so little, as I'm certainly not going to subscribe to get past the headlines, which seem suspiciously focused on local Italian financial investments. Its land holdings alone are immense, with huge buildings in most of the world's most expensive cities, cascading down to thousands and thousands of large mostly wasted space buildings near the centers of the vast majority of towns in the western nations and beyond. I've seen the public parts of the Vatican art galleries and museums and am pretty damn sure that when middling Rembrandts or Picassos go for nine figures apiece, the huge number of Renaissance masterpieces those public rooms contain are alone worth more than 15B.

But let's pretend the RCC only has 15B. That has bugger all to do with how they enable, nay create poverty and human misery. Keeping wealth that could be shared is only a temporary and trivial tweak to anti-poverty efforts. Even if the RCC gave away ten times that lowball number, $150B, that would give less than $50 to every poor person om earth. And while that would feed an impoverished child in the Sao Paolo slums for quite some time, it would not make a lasting dent in poverty en masse (pun intended). I'm not going to be a hypocrite and suggest that the RCC can alleviate poverty in total when I don't make the same claims about other wealthy organizations.

But what they CAN do is stop relentless opposition to things that could make a lasting difference, like birth control and reproductive choice. Few things are more strongly correlated with poverty than early and large numbers of childbirths, which is exactly what the church demands in its relentless and futile drive to stop the drop in its waning flock of adherents, and more important, donors. This pressure is much more successful among the most vulnerable populations, those who are already poor, undereducated and with limited access to alternatives. And guess what? More poor babies to more poor parents does far far more to entrench and create poverty than not selling a few million FIAT shares and the occasional Titian and chucking a few crumbs to the local gamins.



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Response to whatthehey (Reply #79)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:55 PM

88. Your point is well taken.

However, Vatican wealth is small potatoes compared to the wealth of hundreds of global profit-taking corporations.

I agree that many of the pope's positions are indefensible, but I would prefer to limit my comments about the Market Watch article to the challenge to capitalism.

Not matter how people feel about the Catholic Church, our greatest threats are from elsewhere; and I believe that the pope has rather courageously identified those threats.

Greedy unregulated capitalistic exploitation of the earth and human beings for profit is, as far as I am concerned, our greatest threat.

If this goes on, none of us will have a place to live.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:08 PM

73. Pope Francis Isn’t Holding Back—And U.S. Politicians Should Watch Out

Here is the article by Christopher Hale in Time that Farrell referred to and used in writing his article in Market Watch:

Pope Francis Isn’t Holding Back—And U.S. Politicians Should Watch Out

http://time.com/3953591/pope-francis-bolivia-speech/

Excerpts:

Francis and his predecessors have issued strong calls for global economic structural reforms before, but Thursday night’s address to the poor of Bolivia went above and beyond. “The future of humanity does not lie solely in the hands of great leaders, the great powers and the elites,” he said. “It is fundamentally in the hands of peoples and in their ability to organize. It is in their hands, which can guide with humility and conviction this process of change. I am with you.”

If his September address to the U.S. Congress looks anything similar, House Speaker John Boehner and leaders of both parties might regret their invitation to the 78-year-old Jesuit pontiff. Here are the four foundations of his revolution.


The pope does not invoke socialism to counter unregulated capitalism, but refers rather to the message of the Gospels.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #73)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 04:51 PM

112. Oh, please. U.S. Politicians are not shivering with fear over this Pope. The U.S. Bishops...

...still in place from the last Popes, and that includes at least one put in place by this Pope (Salvatore Joseph Cordileone—who tried to make teachers in some 500 catholic schools affirm that they held homosexuality and contraception as evil or not be allowed to teach), are all on the side of the most conservative GOP. They were the ones, after all, that went after nuns trying to reduce poverty, insisting they focus on ending homosexuality and abortion instead. They were the ones behind anti-gay and anti-contraceptive laws, including making sure Obamacare didn't cover birth control pills (note—they took action to have their way in these things, they didn't just talk). And they are fervently pro-capitalism.

And let's not forget that all but one of the Catholics on the Supreme Court (Alto, Scalia, Kennedy, Roberts and Thomas) are pretty much (or completely) in the GOP's pockets. Do you REALLY think that THEY are going to agree with Pope Francis here against Capitalism? Suddenly say, "As a Catholic I must obey my pope and reverse Citizen's United...?"



Please, tell me, exactly what U.S. politicians have to fear given that all the upper echelons of power in the American Catholic Church—in its Bishops and Supreme Court catholics--are completely on the side of John Boehner and company? When the Pope leaves, after talking all the poor folk into thinking the Catholic Church cares about them, those Bishops, NOT THE POPE, will issue commands of what will be said in churches during the upcoming elections, rather like Fox News with a lot of mis-direction (how many anti-abortion, anti-gay politicians are also anti-capitalism? If they say, "Pope Francis wants you to vote for this guy who is anti-abortion...." how likely will it be that he's a socialist?)

So far as I can see, politicians, far from fearing Pope Francis, are rolling their eyes and looking at their watches waiting for him to go home. WHEN and if he changes out the Bishops so that those in charge of the church, around the globe, are environmentalists and socialists THEN you can quote these hyperbolic predictions of starting revolutions and scaring politicians. Actions speak louder than words, and so far, I haven't seen any actions from Francis to scare or worry anyone. All I ever see from him are words. And really wrong-headed actions like putting Bishop Cordileone in charge of San Francisco Hardly reassuring, let alone "revolutionary."

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:11 PM

74. Indeed, it is not Capitalism anymore.

When one changes the rules, one changes the game.

Adam Smith would no more recognize his creation today than the inventor of Rugby would understand the Superbowl.

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Response to raouldukelives (Reply #74)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:16 PM

76. Absolutely.

For Adam Smith, capitalism has rules and should be governed by moral guidelines. Moreover, the notion of multinational corporations would have been foreign to his way of thinking.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:12 PM

75. Did everyone ignore that Francis attacked abortion in his rant against capitalism?

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Response to Deadshot (Reply #75)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:23 PM

78. Duly noted, but that topic belongs in another discussion.

This thread is about attacks on capitalism. It is more productive to fucus on one issue at a time.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #78)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:28 PM

80. I disagree.

You cannot talk about one without the other when they're both mentioned in the same rant.

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Response to Deadshot (Reply #80)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:54 PM

85. I refer you to the thread topic.

The thread is about the article in Market Watch, which does not mention abortion. Other links are for the sake of augmenting the original article before us.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:19 PM

77. Do the people in this thread know the difference between a business and nonprofit?

 

The church does not build wealth for investors, its purpose is not profit-seeking.

It would be classified as a nonprofit, not a corporation. Nonprofits also have investment portfolios. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, for instance, has vast holdings which generate funds (dividends and capital gains ) to use for charitable purposes.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #77)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:30 PM

81. But generally speaking, such foundations

don't normally have their wealth tied up in hundreds of huge ornate mostly empty buildings on the most expensive real estate on earth, and a few thousand High Renaissance masterpieces, none of which generate a dime for charitable purposes.

Nor do very many of them guarantee future poverty by fierce opposition to controlling family size regardless of the circumstances.

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #81)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:03 PM

90. To answer your question

 

don't normally have their wealth tied up in hundreds of huge ornate mostly empty buildings on the most expensive real estate on earth


Those buildings are no different than Planned Parenthood medical centers. Lacking those, neither entity would have a reason to exist. Those properties are not profit centers.



and a few thousand High Renaissance masterpieces, none of which generate a dime for charitable purposes.


Being the only charity on earth which is also a sovereign state, that would be normal. Similar to Britain's or France's national treasures, which are UNESCO World Heritage sites and thus never for sale. They generate funds for their own maintenance and other nonprofit purposes.

Nor do very many of them guarantee future poverty by fierce opposition to controlling family size regardless of the circumstances.


Not sure what this means. The Pope is a temporary caretaker of immensely valuable works of art, which should never be sold. Neither he nor any other church official own any of this property.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #77)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:36 PM

83. Many thanks to you for stating this so clearly.

The Vatican itself is neither a corporation nor a bank. It has a bank, because it is an autonomous "city state" with investments in many places; and it distributes money to many charitable services (as a nonprofit).

But whatever one calls it, it is not as wealthy as people might think. Most assets are separately owned by "dioceses" all over the world.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:35 PM

82. oh please

Never forget this guy was just a stand in for Johnny the Rat, aka benedict, because the blood of molested children could not be washed off. TPTB know that unless Francisco lives to 100, his reign can easily be swept up and the Papacy filled by some of the really fascist types that will make Alexandre Borgia look like a saint.

Unless I hear some stuff ex cathedra, aka something the Vatican can never take back without shredding it's own authority, I call bs.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #82)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:43 PM

84. There are many ways to view the same thing.

This guy is "a great fan of Pope Francis" and shares many of his views on unregulated capitalism:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251440314

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:02 PM

86. The Predators call out the Aliens, wasn't that a movie or something?

I wonder if the new crusades will be on twitter. Really, this is kind of of inevitable, nation state and religion has been forced to take a back seat to rule of currency and the both the latter wanting to field it's disinfected even while being part of it. It's kind of ironic.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:47 PM

87. Except the pope has no power over rational people in the US

And ignorant people won't listen to things they don't want to hear.


So it's a moot point.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #87)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:06 PM

91. Education...

...is the process of awakening human minds to think beyond their comfortable, but uninformed, world view. Any attempt to educate is worthwhile. Even standing up for science and critical thinking in a culture woefully lacking and even opposed to science and critical thinking, is a plus. Even rational people can learn from others, as I am learning from Naomi Klein's excellent book, while ignorant people can open their minds when introduced with patience and care to facts and logic.

I believe that the pope's encyclical gives all of us food for thought, and for that I am grateful.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #91)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:56 PM

97. Capitalism isn't evil. Unrestricted power is.

Too much power in any one's hands is detrimental.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #97)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:06 PM

99. I think that "unregulated capitalism" is the real evil.

Greed has to be kept within limits. Otherwise, it becomes self-destructive and takes the world along with it. Profit-taking with no regard for the planet and for human beings is on a collision course with reality.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #99)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:12 PM

100. Agreed, it is power amassed in the hands of the wealthy

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Response to Fearless (Reply #100)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:29 PM

101. And the most powerful have made themselves subject to no rules.

They seem like the immortal gods of Olympus. Some think our only hope is for them to knock each other off. We are ants to them.

But they are outnumbered by the rest of us. If we can work together and not fight against one another, we have the collective power to "re-regulate" them and redistribute their wealth.

The pope believes this is possible.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #97)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:51 AM

141. Which is basically what makes up human civilization

If that's not unrestricted power, then nothing is. Taking down trees to build roads. Messing up ecosystems to build dams. Giving ourselves the ability to fly and travel at 50mph. To use a communication device that allows instant communication making that kind of distance obsolete.

Human beings don't do well with limits. Especially those imposed on us. Especially those that we don't agree with. Depending on which side of an argument you're on, you may like some limits, and that's where arguing and politics was born.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #141)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:39 PM

147. I fundamentally agree.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:02 PM

89. This Pope's statements ...

 

... are probably exactly the sort of thing the establishment was afraid of when America simply wouldn't elect a Catholic President.

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Response to staggerleem (Reply #89)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:16 PM

92. So true.

The establishment understands that ideas are dangerous. That is why they work like crazy to suppress education and to minimize ideas that come from outside the propaganda echo chamber.

The United States is ground zero for unbridled capitalism, and any criticism of that system from a religious or moral point of view will not be taken lightly.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:18 PM

93. No, actually it won't do that.

Not a chance.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #93)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:54 PM

96. Good to see you, Mineral Man!

I think that Paul Farrell does tend to get overly excited and alarmist. Christopher Hale's article is milder and avoids the "socialist" label.

But I do think the pope's visit to DC and speech before Congress will make a number of people uncomfortable for different reasons.

We'll see how it goes, and how the DC crowd and the candidates react to it.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:47 PM

94. People of the world rise up!

That's the message.

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Response to WHEN CRABS ROAR (Reply #94)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:01 PM

98. That about sums it up, When Crabs Roar.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:35 PM

102. This is the biggest crock of shit I have heard in a long, long time.

A revolution of what? Half the population? If you'd bothered to understand even the most basic of things about a revolution against capitalism, you'd know gender equality is one the most necessary and important things, if not the most important. Abortion and modern sexuality theory are integral to developing a single host of people that will unite against capitalism. If you don't start with that, you will achieve nothing.

Meanwhile, he's still running one of the largest and historically most abusive capitalist organizations in history. The Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church are disgusting in their treatment of the poor and oppressed. Oh yeah--abortion makes all of that worse, too.

Another thing: what about climate change? How do you propose revolting while avoiding dealing with the most intense challenge to face mankind? Abortion and women's rights are critical for doing that. (And, I might add, so is letting gays adopt children).

There is so much wrong with this article I don't know where to start. The Pope is changing things. But not a whole lot--very little policy or teachings have changed, just the way they're phrased. This article is yet another pathetic attempt at deifying him.

Perhaps we stop championing one of the more bigoted people in the world, leading one of the most bigoted organizations? I prefer to support the millions of people around the world actually bothering to recognize and deal with the reality that we face.

I will say one last thing:

Fuck the pope.

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #102)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:58 PM

109. Historically most revolutions are started and pushed by just

10 to 15 percent of the population, all the rest are just followers.
Ready to push?

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Response to WHEN CRABS ROAR (Reply #109)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 04:05 PM

111. I like your "can do" attitude. What have we got to lose?

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Response to WHEN CRABS ROAR (Reply #109)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 07:11 PM

121. Historically, most revolutions end in blood and terror.

We have to choose to do this united. We cannot be divided, or we will fail yet again.

And yeah, I'm pushing. It's why I don't play on this site much anymore. Done with this liberal "the Pope is totally a hero" crap, among other things.

He doesn't accept women as equal. He thinks I shouldn't have children. He's a hypocritical bigot. Any revolution he is pushing, I will have nothing to do with. The first step in uniting is acceptance of our differences, and love for each other. He does neither.

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #121)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:07 PM

124. This revolution needs to be a nonviolent one,

something like a general strike, no more destruction of our resources for a war and it needs to be worldwide in scope.

Unfortunately it's just not the Pope that doesn't see women as equals, about half the worlds population of men don't either, that is something that needs to change and it will be slow in coming.

Read these 30 articles of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. this would be a good starting point as they have already been drafted and upgraded as an ongoing process.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

http://www.un.org/en/sections/what-we-do/protect-human-rights/index.html

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Response to WHEN CRABS ROAR (Reply #124)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:52 PM

127. I know them.

And yes, many men do not. It isn't a license to ignore his beliefs.

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #102)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 04:02 PM

110. Have you read the encyclical?

Lots about climate change and our relation to nature there.

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #102)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:42 AM

139. Thank you. Righteous rant.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:38 PM

104. It's obvious that most of his commments about the environment, about the Poor,

about predatory Capitalism, and about being 'obsessed with Gays and Abortion when they should be worrying about the Poor, are all aimed at The Right in this country, which includes the Third Way who support all Republican Foreign policies AND economic policies including destroying the Social Safety nets

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #104)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:36 AM

137. So then when he rails against the rights of LGBT and reproductive justice, who is that 'aimed at'?

 

Because he does those things. The way he speaks about my people is not acceptable You suggest this bigot is kind toward LGBT people but he attacks our families, says out rights are the idea of Satan.
Do you go around telling minority people that their rights are part of Satan's plan to destroy God? Would you do that? If not, why are you helping Francis do that?

Plus, your America-centric world view is odd. He rants against LGBT families and trans people in Manila, but he's really telling Republicans to be pro-choice and pro-gay? That's your contention?

The shit your pal says about us is not acceptable. No amount of whining from his supporters will make it acceptable.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:48 PM

108. That's rich, coming from the First Estate. nt

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:02 PM

113. Yeah, I don't notice the Vatican giving away all that gold that's in their basement.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/how-rich-vatican-so-wealthy-it-can-stumble-across-millions-euros-just-tucked-away-1478219

Yes, Pontiff Che, coming to bring Dialectical Jesus Materialism to the US.

Right.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:17 PM

114. The Pope is after converts to his religion

That is the bottom line, his PR job. And he is good at that.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:55 PM

116. These are the exact same views that pope quitter had

Every last one of them.

"I'm not catholic but...) well you should look into what the church stands for before spouting off that you're buying into the propaganda. This corperation with "incalculable wealth" has always championed the cause of the poor. The views on global warming is consistant.

Ya'll have bought the media spin they are generating with help from publisists they poached from fox.

BTW, francis harbores internationally wanted child molestors. Take that how you want, but it's fact.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:44 AM

140. Don't forget to send a letter to Speaker Boehner thanking him for inviting Francis to speak to

 

Congress. It was Boehner's invitation, and you are thrilled about it, so it is only fitting and proper that you should express your deep gratitude to the Republican who made it possible for you.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 01:20 PM

149. In what parallel universe is that even possible?

Overthrow capitalism in America? Revolt?

Most Americans are content to sit around sharing pictures online while eating Ranch flavored every-damn-thing and either watching porn and getting a boner or looking up medicines to help get a boner while watching porn...that is, when we are not shooting each other.

This Pope talks out of both sides of his mouth. He will say one thing to appease the left one week, then go right back into saying anti-GLBT bullshit the next week. Never trust anyone who plays both sides...or anyone who claims that any kind of meaningful revolt can happen in America. That is just not going to happen in this day and age.

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Response to Koinos (Original post)


Response to Koinos (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:30 PM

156. I love how the OWS moment STILL pisses off the D.C jet set! Fuck em!

 

You go Pope! Shove that plutocracy right down their throats!

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