The moment we've all been waiting for - pics of Zimmermans head wounds

[-..__...]

Who's going to be the first to claim that...

A) The wounds are self inflicted

B) Someone was paid to beat Zimmerman

C) The photos are doctored

D) Zimermans doctor is still lying.







[IMG][/IMG]

Evidence mixed for Zimmerman's self-defense claim

By KYLE HIGHTOWER, Associated Press – 1 hour ago

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — When George Zimmerman tries to convince a judge or jury that he shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense, the evidence he'll be able to call on appears to be a mixed bag.

More than 200 pages of photos and eyewitness accounts released by prosecutors Thursday show Zimmerman and Martin were in a loud and bloody fight in the moments leading up to the shooting and that Zimmerman appeared to be getting the worst of it, with wounds both to his face and the back of his head.

But the original lead detective in the case believed Zimmerman caused the fight by getting out of his vehicle to confront Martin, who wasn't doing anything criminal, and then could have defused the situation by telling Martin he was just a concerned citizen and tried to talk to him. He didn't think Zimmerman could legally invoke Florida's "stand your ground" law and should be charged with manslaughter.

More at link... http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCdykoIjmPMAgLTFzxHVIydZIECQ?docId=3f268f957ba44ecdba44ed43b71e48e1

[dkf]

1. Well for some people even a birth certificate isn't enough.

You will always have the true believers on every side of the issue.

[maddezmom]

55. wtf?

are you going on about here? Are you really comparing birthers to people that believe Zimmerman may be at fault here?

[sabrina 1]

113. Are you saying Trayvon Martin, who was minding his own business, is not dead?

Should we all now expect to die and be blamed for our own murder?

If we go to the store and some armed vigilante with a history of violence, decides we 'look suspicious', accosts us, but if we try to defend ourselves, kills us, should we now expect to be blamed and told 'well you should have stayed in your house'?

I don't care how many injuries Zimmerman had, he was the agressor, the threat to someone's safety, and not just Trayvon's according to his record, and I'm only sorry Trayvon was unable to completely immobilize him as he would be alive today had he done that.

[malaise]

134. Apparently

Trayvon was murdered by a racist stalker

[dkf]

203. This is about acknowledging that Zimmerman was injured in an incident with Martin.

The accusation that Zimmerman faked his injuries or paid someone to beat him up is now seen to be obviously wrong. To deny this belongs in the category of birthers.

[Capt. Obvious]

215. Zimmerman's injuries - are they in the shape of bullet holes?

[dkf]

222. No. But they exist contrary to many assertions that they were faked.

[sabrina 1]

219. I never denied his injuries, I was just sorry he wasn't incapacitated being that he was

so dangerous. He killed an innocent person. That is all that matters, any injuries he may have incurred he more than deserved and since they were only minor injuries the victim clearly failed, although he exercised his right to try, to defend himself, tragically.

[dkf]

223. The injuries say to me that Martin was on the top with Zimmerman on the bottom screaming.

Cuts to Martin's knuckles with Zimmerman having the broken nose and cuts on the back of his head tell me it was Trayvon on top and Zimmerman on the bottom. I don't think it is plausible that Martin while on top punching Zimmerman is the one screaming for help, do you?

Zimmerman could not retreat and was in fear of his life. Martin on top was the only one who could retreat and he chose not to.

There were 14 screams for help I believe. But for some reason Martin felt he needed to keep punching.

I have no idea who started the altercation. I don't think we will ever prove that, much less beyond a reasonable doubt. But I do think that listening to the tape and the screams, we can conclude that person was in mortal fear and that seems the essence of SYG.

[sabrina 1]

224. You've obviously never witnessed a fight. There is no proof that either one was on top

at all. Their positions could have changed, as they do when people are involved in a situation like that. They roll around on the ground with one on the bottom one minute and the next, the other. His injuries tell you nothing of where he was.

The screams have been identified as coming from Trayvon, by his parents, and by the FBI. So your assumption appears to be wrong.

The cops have said the fault lies with Zimmerman, they were there one minute after the incident.

His girlfriend's testimony proves that Trayvon was terrified of this dangerous stalker and was out of breath from trying to GET AWAY FROM HIM. And while still on the phone, she heard Zimmerman approach him. What was Zimmerman following him for? Why did he accost him? The cops have now stated that Zimmerman 'should have talked to him, should have explained why he was there'. That says that he did none of that, but accosted Trayvon for no reason at all.

I can see now, from the latest evidence, why the prosecution went for second degree murder. If he is lucky he might be able to make a deal for manslaughter or maybe the jury will be given that option. But there is no question he wrongfully murdered a perfectly innocent person. And why he had a gun in the first place, is another question. Zimmerman has a record of being violent. He should never have been on the streets armed like that. He was a threat to the public and a killing waiting to happen.

[Blue_Tires]

226. Zimmerman couldn't "retreat"? That's fuckin' rich since he is the one who was the threat

[mactime]

2. But but

he could have got those creeping through the bushes while stalking his victim

[Aerows]

92. Or

He could have kept his ass in his vehicle like the 911 dispatcher advised him to do and none of this would have happened.

Instead, he decided to play superhero vigilante with a firearm by chasing down Martin. Once again, poor judgment exercised by someone with a deadly weapon leads to tragedy.

You can try to slice it anyway you want to, but that's the bottom line, and everyone knows it.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. my kid fell headfirst into a blackberry bush and looked worse than that

blood all over his head, but they were just tiny scratches that healed completely in 3 days.

[dionysus]

4. hoookay. and this proves what exactly?

a 1/2" superficial cut on the back of his head and a couple scratche2 on his nose...

this means he was saving his life by gunning this kid down? you'll have to try harder than that...

[-..__...]

17. That there was a struggle between the two.

Supports Zimmermans claim that Martin was beating his head on the sidewalk.

Disproves the contention by some here that there's no way the "smaller" Martin could have beat the "larger" Zimmerman.

Disproves that because there was no visible blood in the police station videos, the fight never happened.

Disproves the claims that the enhanced video/pics released by CBS/ABC (I don't recall which one at the moment), were doctored/faked/Photoshopped.

Mind you... this evidence doesn't show what happened leading up to, and after the event... merely that there is some legitimacy to Zimmermans claims that others have brushed off as "bull shit".

[dionysus]

23. all it proves is their was a struggle. it doesnt prove who started what.

furthermore, one half inch cut doesnt prove his head was being bashed repeated into the concrete as claimed.

[Javaman]

87. and I see no evidence of a "broken nose" as they have claimed.

nor do I see black eyes as his family physician has also claimed.

[dionysus]

229. me neither.

[Myrina]

143. ... and it doesn't prove WHO caused those injuries, or WHEN.

Maybe Martin (but highly unlikely), or maybe a thug-pal of Zimmerman's (or a complicit cop) to make it look like 'self-defense'.

[Life Long Dem]

115. I see your not here to make buddies on DU on this topic

I'm in the same boat, making enemies because I believe in people's rights.

[HangOnKids]

175. Oh Gosh Poor Poor You

Just trying to get folks to understand people's rights. Tireless work I hear. And that would be you're, not your. Just helpin'.

[Blue_Tires]

196. FFS nobody here has violated any of Zimmerman's goddamned rights

He's out on bail and free to walk the street as anybody,..

[Blue_Tires]

121. cool...now go dig up Martin's injuries and see how much of Zimmerman's account is disproved

Somehow I don't see you doing that....

[aquart]

139. Trayvon Martin stood his ground but the stalker with a gun still murdered him.

I'm thrilled the kid fought back. But the only one here who can claim self-defense is the dead guy.

[etherealtruth]

181. yep

[sabrina 1]

168. What it proves is that Trayvon Martin was facing a threat to his life, which he correctly

assessed. Apparently he decided to try to defend himself, but failed to so since the threat to his life was armed. We do not know whether he became aware of the fact that his attacker was armed. But we do know that his assessment of the danger he was in was correct. The tragedy is that only succeeded in slightly wounding this dangerous attacker who as we know now, had a record of violence. How sad it is that a teenager was put in the position of trying to save his own life and that anyone might use his attempt to defend himself, against him.

[CakeGrrl]

171. That shouldn't have taken place had Zimmerman kept his ass in the car and called police.

He brought about the situation. It is his fault.

[Yavin4]

5. Zimmerman Engaged Martin

He had no authority whatsoever to do that. None. Any wounds that happened to him are irrelevant.

You cannot engage a fight, and then claim self-defense.

[mactime]

9. That's news to me

I have not heard that before. My understanding is that Zimmerman was at/in his car when Trayvon confronted and engaged him.

[maddezmom]

11. I think the 911 tape disputes this

but I could be wrong.
ETA:http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014123689

[GoCubsGo]

26. You aren't wrong.

The police told him to stay in his car and leave the boy alone THREE TIMES. It's all on the recordings.

[dkf]

29. That was the 911 dispatcher who has no authority in this matter.

[maddezmom]

48. that is not the point.

The point is Zimmerman was the aggressor here.

[GoCubsGo]

54. Exactly.

[GoCubsGo]

52. So, that makes it okay?

Because the dispatcher has no "authority", it's okay for Zimmerman to ignore her three times, instead of letting those who do have "authority" come in and handle the situation? Wow.

[LiberalFighter]

70. Wasn't GZ in violation of neighborhood watch rules?

Neighborhood Watch is only suppose to provide eyes and ears to LEOs.

[Blue_Roses]

78. Yes, and he wasn't suppose to carry a gun.

Nt

[Capt. Obvious]

216. I'll just reuse this

911: "911, what's your emergency?"

Caller: "Hello? Yeah, my son, I think he's dead. He's not breathing, no pulse."

911: "Okay, I'm going to need you to start CPR until EMS gets there."

Caller: "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=617977

[maddezmom]

47. weird isn't it

people keep pushing memes to defend Zimmerman when there are facts out there to dispute them.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. He drove his car into the middle of a vehicle inaccessible courtyard?

Wow. Interesting.

[jambo101]

37. the murder site

From the pics i've seen the murder site was nowhere near the parking lot so MrZ was not in his car.If the wounds he received are real its comforting to know Trayvon at least got some licks in before he was killed.The question i keep wondering was did Trayvon know this guy had a gun and was going to kill him with it and therefore was Trayvon fighting for his life to avoid being killed by some shady character following him.?
Looking forward to following the trial so all our speculations on the events of that night can be clarified..

[EOTE]

42. Well, your understanding is totally and utterly wrong.

He got out of his car to pursue Trayvon, you can hear it clearly.

[LiberalFighter]

74. Yep! Didn't the 911 operator asked about that because he was breathing heavy?

[EOTE]

96. He asked about it before, I believe.

He told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon, Zimmerman then says OK, and then we hear the door open and shut and Zimmerman begin to get out of breath. He wanted his kill and he was going to get it either way.

[Aerows]

99. It's not news

to anyone that has paid even passing attention to the entire situation, considering that there are 911 tapes and Trayvon was shot in a courtyard.

If he would have stayed in his vehicle, and waited for the police instead of haring off on his own, none of this would have happened.

[magical thyme]

105. your understanding is incorrect.

The case summary states that Zimmerman confronted Martin.

Zimmerman left his car and followed Martin, and has attested to that. He *claims* that he was returning to his car when Martin jumped him from behind.

However, eye witnesses saw a chase scene with the location and direction described as at a specific 'T' in the walkway between buildings, overhead a loud, dominant argumentative man and a child or young man, etc.

[NatBurner]

106. that's what happens when fox is you main "news" source

[BlancheSplanchnik]

114. would you mind clarifying WHERE you heard that?

Thanks.

(helpful hint: "Some people say" is not a valid news source.)

[aquart]

141. Amazingly, Zimmerman could have then DRIVEN AWAY.

Think for two seconds. Your position is ridiculous.

[Doctor_J]

209. Stop watching Fox "News"

and listening Hate Radio. those are the only sources for such ridiculous lies.

[Scuba]

6. Stalking and attacking someone, then shooting him because you were losing? That's a lousy defense.

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. +1

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Young black males are not allowed to be scared of creepy stalkers in darkened courtyards

They're the scary ones, not the scared ones.

Do I need the sarcasm thingy?

[True Earthling]

41. What evidence is there that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon?

Do you believe Zimmerman had already made up his mind to kill Trayvon while stalking him?

[uponit7771]

60. Trayvons screams for help

[True Earthling]

77. Taryvon's father initially denied it was Trayvon's screams

Voice analysis proved inconclusive. There is no evidence to prove Zimmerman attacked Martin.

And on one 911 call, placed by a neighbor, a police sergeant counted one man yelling "help!" or "help me!" 14 times in a span of 38 seconds.

Who was yelling? When the 911 calls were later played back for him and he was asked if they were from his son, an emotional Tracy Martin "quietly responded 'no'." But an FBI analysis, also detailed on Thursday, said it couldn't be determined whose voice it was due to the "extreme emotional state" of whomever was yelling, a lack of words from which to compare, overlapping voices and "insufficient voice quality" on the recording.
The same analysis also didn't reach conclusions as to whether Zimmerman used a racial epithet to describe Martin on his own 911 call, as some have alleged. Martin's family have said they believe Zimmerman, a white Hispanic, profiled the African-American teen.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting-details/index.html

[noiretextatique]

83. there is no evidence to prove Martin attacked zimmerman

and Martin's mother said it was her son crying for help. zimmerman got out of his car...that makes him the aggressor.

[True Earthling]

112. Trayvon's girlfriend described Trayvon being chased

which supports the view that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

"I know he was scared," the girl recounts. "I told him, 'Keep running!' ... He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is [Trayvon saying], 'Why are you following me for?' … I heard this man... say, 'What are you doing around here?' ..

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon

[uppityperson]

177. Wrong. "It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say"

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/02/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
Audio experts Tom Owen and Ed Primeau, who analyzed the recordings for the Sentinel using different techniques, said they don't believe it is Zimmerman who is heard yelling in the background of one 911 call. They compared those screams with Zimmerman's voice, as recorded in a 911 call he made minutes earlier describing a "suspicious" black male, who ended up being Martin.
"There's a huge chance that this is not Zimmerman's voice," said Primeau, a longtime audio engineer who is listed as an expert in recorded evidence by the American College of Forensic Examiners International. "After 28 years of doing this, I would put my reputation on the line and say this is not George Zimmerman screaming."
Owen, a forensic audio analyst and chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence, also said he does not believe the screams came from Zimmerman.
He cited software that is widely used in Europe and has become recently accepted in the United States that examines characteristics like pitch and the space between spoken words to analyze voices. Using it, he found a 48% likelihood the voice is Zimmerman's. At least 60% is necessary to feel confident two samples are from the same source, he told CNN on Monday -- meaning it's unlikely it was Zimmerman who can be heard yelling.

[Scuba]

66. I have no idea what GZ was thinking. Prosecutors are preparing evidence, not me.

[Jamastiene]

172. Uhm, Trayvon's dead body isn't enough evidence?

He was told not to get out of his car and follow. He did it anyhow. He was nowhere near his car when the killed Trayvon Martin. He followed him and confronted him with a gun.

[uponit7771]

59. +1, it was officialy stalking too

[ProgressiveProfessor]

104. Has Zimmerman been charged with that?

[sylvi]

194. Nope

And it's doubtful the judge in the case will even let the prosecutor utter the word "stalking" unless it is one of the charges or Zimmerman has a past conviction for it.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. So if

Someone stalks me and frightens me with their stalking - and they get out of their SUV - and I fight instead of flight . . . this is what I can do to them?

Cool.

[slackmaster]

15. If you are willing to risk getting shot, or arrested, you can do that to anyone at any time.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. So

As a woman - if it's me - because I am a woman. . . .


Like when I caught my screwy proposal man/bunny boiler (long story but I digress) on the ass - I should have just let him continue to stalk me and stab me to death?


Hmmm - granted when I fought back it was with a phone and a paring knife (my brother is still that I didn't get my gun instead ) - but I shouldn't have done that.

Oh wait - snap . . . Trayvon was supposed to call 911. So it's all his fault. Not that it would have helped him . . .

[Starry Messenger]

10. Those ones from the back are old pictures.

Bfd. He should have stayed in his fucking car.

[maddezmom]

53. agree

not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

[Starry Messenger]

116. Oh, I could say why, but it would get my post hidden.

Evidently whatever it is believes that Trayvon somehow lured Zimmerman inexorably out of his vehicle so he could have himself shot. I really hate people today.

[slackmaster]

12. Nobody was paid to beat Zimmerman. Zimmerman's dad did it for free.

Or his doctor did it. Or the cops.



Oh, and the photos must be fake because they weren't posted on the Web months ago.

More

[2pooped2pop]

88. ok

lets say that :
1)Trayvon was in the neighborhood to steal ur cd's from ur car.
2) all of the wounds are real and caused by Trayvon or the scuffle.
3) the doctors diagnosis is legit

Zimmerman is still the aggressor. Once the kid was on the run, no one other than legal law enforcement (not wanna be's) had the right to pursue him.

Zimmerman acted as vigilante. Zimmerman ignored directions from 911 operator to stay put and NOT PURSUE.

Fighting back is not a crime and I would expect that any of us would do the same.

Zimmerman's actions caused the death of a kid that there is zero evidence that was doing anything illegal. Even if the kid was in that neighborhood to commit a crime, it is not worth killing over.

Zimmerman is not a cop. Zimmerman has many people coming out saying he intimidated them with racist slurs and cop wanna be be, heavy handed behavior.

The police should have stopped Zimmerman from acting this way before this happened. He had called the police numerous times. They should have made it perfectly clear that the right to bear arms does not equate with the right to be a vigilante. They should have cooled his heels long before this happened.

Zimmerman's own decision to continue the pursuit led to the death of a minor. It will be manslaughter but should be murder in the 2nd.

Zimmerman had safety in his car and could have driven away at any time. The kid had no safe place and was being pursued by what he must have thought was a racist madman.

In my opinion Zimmerman did shoot in self defense of sorts. After he harassed, frightened and stalked a person, the person fought back. Zimmerman was not winning the fisticuffs and used his weapon. But none of that would have happened if Zimmerman had not continued his unauthorized pursuit of a kid.

It was Zimmerman's actions that caused everything.
If the kid pulled out a gun and shot Zimmerman, he would have been in the right to do so.

Zimmerman went looking for a fight, found one, was losing it, so he killed him. It was still Zimmerman who was looking for the fight not the kid.

manslaughter at least.

for anyone who wants to say "prove your facts" NO. This is my opinion and enough has been written that you all already know the facts.

[alittlelark]

185. Good Post - well thought out.

[2pooped2pop]

186. thanks

[noiretextatique]

13. i read the article, and there is NO mention of WHEN these pictures were taken or who took them

so...until that information is revealed, these pictures prove nothing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. Clearly the provenance is important

If the AP has them, so will the rest of the media and I expect we will get better sourcing data.

Dismissing them out of hand is myopic at best. Then again, the case does not succeed or fail on how bad his injuries were.

[vaberella]

14. And this means that Trayvon deserved to be killed by this man. Thank you Apologist. n/t

[marmar]

18. I know. It's gotten to the point where I can't even stand to open these threads anymore.

It's what I'd expect on Free Republic.

[Blue_Tires]

201. Me too

But it's helpful for me to know exactly who stands where on this case...It's been eye-opening, to say the least...

[cigsandcoffee]

21. 'Deserved' has nothing to do with this, legally speaking. n/t

[vaberella]

45. Does "justified" make you feel better then?n/t

[Blue_Tires]

192. We can at least say he never 'deserved' to be followed, "legally speaking"

[dionysus]

24. some people love guns too much, don't they?

[Union Scribe]

28. Why does it mean that?

I think DUers are grown up enough to see everything put forth in this case. AFAIK the OP didn't make these photos up, so why attack them?

[vaberella]

44. Hardly the case.

I am fully adult to take into account the information. This is not startling news. However, this messenger has been doing very well in implying that Zimmerman was justified in his killing of Trayvon Martin and hence my response.

[noiretextatique]

89. now we have the legal eagles

and as we all should know, you cannot expect truth or justice in a court of law in america. i just hope the jury members set aside their prejudices and reject zimmerman's implausible story. if he was sooooo afraid, why did he get out of the car? that should convict him in a sane world.

[Fumesucker]

19. Here's a pic supposedly taken just after the time of the alleged fight..

Interesting that he still has on the same jacket and there appears to be no blood on it at all, if Zimmerman shot Martin in the heart while Martin was standing above him you would expect some of Martin's blood to be on Zimmerman's jacket..

[-..__...]

34. "YOU" would expect"... some of Martin's blood to be on Zimmerman's jacket..

some of Martin's blood to be on Zimmerman's jacket..

Maybe some of the Hollywood and TV show forensics experts posting here would assume that, but I wouldn't.

[Fumesucker]

38. So in your view who was on top during this struggle, Zimmerman or Martin?

[-..__...]

50. Why ask me?

I wasn't there.

Me... I'll just sit and wait until more evidence/testimony is released.

[Fumesucker]

57. It's not an unreasonable extrapolation from your OP that you have formed an opinion..

Your snarky tone certainly implied that you had knowledge of what happened.

[Blue_Tires]

86. So why did you even post this in the first place with the snark?

It's not like there aren't 20 other threads right now...

(You don't need to answer; I know the reason)

[Blue_Tires]

191. Which couldn't have been done in the 20 other threads...got it

I get it; you needed your little 'moment'...At least you're upfront about that...

I have a feeling you won't be rushing to post the Martin photos, if they are ever released...

[-..__...]

200. 20 other threads... is it that many?

I'll have to go and check the time stamps (maybe not), but I'm willing to bet existing Zimmerman threads were somewhere around 0-1 when I started this.

[Blue_Tires]

202. My mistake, then

Just promise me you'll be as prompt with the Martin photos, and Zimmerman's official statement from that night...Hope you're here front and center for that discussion...

[-..__...]

205. I'll make an entry in my daily planner.

Hope you're here front and center for that discussion.

Sure... I'll even bring the beer.

[Paladin]

100. Oh, Yeah. As If You Haven't Formed An Opinion On This Matter.

As if you and your fellow DU gun militant pals aren't defending yet another shooter in highly suspect circumstances....

[LanternWaste]

51. you're not a forensics expert either, however I can only imagine you play one on television...

"here would assume that, but I wouldn't. .."

Of course not. You merely assume that...
"Supports Zimmermans claim that Martin was beating his head on the sidewalk."

"Disproves the contention by some here that there's no way the "smaller" Martin could have beat the "larger" Zimmerman."

"Disproves that because there was no visible blood in the police station videos, the fight never happened."

"Disproves the claims that the enhanced video/pics released by CBS/ABC (I don't recall which one at the moment), were doctored/faked/Photoshopped"




Of course you're not a forensics expert either, however I can only imagine you play one on television...

[-..__...]

56. Give me your honest opinion.

you probably think he sustained those injuries when he slipped and fell in the jailhouse shower.

[maddezmom]

79. why would anyone give you an opinion on anything when you won't when asked

[LanternWaste]

123. My honest opinion is that...

My honest opinion is that you are looking at third-hand evidence in such a way as to merely validate your own particular biases, while dismissing that same in everyone else.


What I think is irrelevant-- he's in criminal court now, and that was my only concern since hearing of this incident.


"you probably..." Quite the clever little mind you think you have.

[Blue_Tires]

206. Give me your honest opinion.

you probably think Zimmerman was sitting his car doing nothing, and all of a sudden Martin yanks open the door, pulls Zimmerman out and curb-stomps him, then grabs his sidearm and shoots himself in a reefer-induced frenzy...

[-..__...]

210. You might be on to something there.

With the possible inclusion that Martin interrupted Zimmerman while he was listening to White Power Rock
on his 8track tape player, snorting laundry detergent, and masturbating furiously to the latest issue of the NRA's "American Rifleman" magazine (the one with Ted Nugent and Wayne LaPierre exchanging spit on the cover), with a .50 BMG round stuck up his ass and yeah... anything is possible.

[Blue_Tires]

213. You forgot the confederate flag...

[SwampG8r]

221. i caught jury duty for this

almost went 3-3 but i found a loophole

Actually...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=704141

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

this post is offensive. It is a reply to "You forgot the confederate flag...". Aside from mocking some DUers dislike of the confederate flag, "maybe if Zimmerman used it as a cum rag" goes overboard and deserves hiding.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat May 19, 2012, 12:15 AM, and the Jury voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: TOS
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: while i feel this entire train wreck of a thread is sad and sick and i feel someone openly defending zimmermans killing of martin without even the codicil of "wait for the full facts"is kind of incomprehesible, this reply doesnt qualify as hideable.its very cleverly worded actually.it insults the duers who have any opinion, heritage or hate, on the confederate flag equally.
oh wait i see a loophole it says "cum rag" there
tell you what i am going to do.i am going to compromise and hide it because SEX RELATED POSTS are not allowed,...wow...i feel better about myself
i get to do the right thing anyways <verdict by swampg8r>
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Ehm, no. Ain't no prude, but some words are just.... you know.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[BlueToTheBone]

22. Interesting that this didn't show in the

police station video, especially the "head wounds"

[6000eliot]

25. The kid was defending his life against an armed thug.

I hope he inflicted as much damage as possible.

[slackmaster]

27. At what point in the confrontation do you believe Trayvon realized that Zimmerman was armed?

TIA

[6000eliot]

31. Probably when he was SHOT DEAD!

[slackmaster]

33. So, before he was shot he didn't know that he was engaging an armed person

Correct?

[jambo101]

46. Streetwise

I cant believe a streetwise kid like Trayvon would not have assumed some one stalking him at night in a back alley wouldnt have been armed.

[ljm2002]

58. "streetwise"?????

Please elaborate on how you know that Trayvon was "streetwise".

[-..__...]

184. Because he lived in FL...

and any "streetwise" person knows that everyone in Florida is packing heat and ready to drop the hammer
if startled or threatened by so much as a black person farting

[noiretextatique]

85. what makes you think he was "streetwise"

beside that fact that he was black?

[uponit7771]

61. It doesn't matter, the stalking was the aggression PERIOD

[ProgressiveProfessor]

93. So if I am being harassed/stalked in public I have the right to attempt to punch out my attacker

That is the essence of your claim. Are you sure you want to go there?

[Downtown Hound]

129. If I'm minding my own business while walking home at night and not doing anything illegal

And somebody starts following me in a creepy manner and then proceeds to interrogate me about what I'm doing, I'm going to tell them to fuck off.

Now, this will likely anger some people, and when somebody is a chicken shit little wannabe superhero that calls 9-1-1 everytime somebody spits on the sidewalk like Zimmerman is, he's likely going to get very aggressive in response, and from there anything can happen.

The point is, you have no evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first. My hunch is that Martin didn't like being followed, probably because he knew his race had something to do with it, and didn't take to kindly to Zimmerman accosting him and interrogating him. My other hunch is that it was probably Zimmerman who became physical first, probably because he didn't like it that Martin stood up for himself and his rights.

So while you have no evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first, there is LOTS of evidence that if Zimmerman had minded his own business, Martin wouldn't be dead. One way or another, Zimmerman is at fault for Trayvon being dead.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

147. Right to a point

We don't know who escalated the confrontation from verbal to physical. Many here are saying it doesn't matter, though I contend it will be a tipping point. For those who say it does not matter, I ask the question, when is it legitimate to escalate from verbal to physical. I read your statement as supporting that.

My hunch is that the verbal confrontation went along the lines you described. From there it gets really gray. No witnesses of who start getting physical first. A witness that says Martin was on top of Zimmerman throwing "MMA like punches" (It was in the witness statement PDFs on MSNBC). Then a gunshot from less than a foot.

I agree that none of this would have happened if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle and that he bears moral responsibility for the death of Martin. Legally we shall see.

[Downtown Hound]

153. Well, again, even if Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman throwing MMA punches

(which I doubt, given that Zimmerman's wounds were on the back of his head and seemed dot be very minor), how can you say he didn't fear for his life because some creepy asshole was following him and threatening him? What if it had gone something like this?

Trayvon: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Trayvon: None of your business.

Zimmerman: I'm making it my business.

Tray von: Fuck off and leave me alone.

Zimmerman approaches Trayvon and Trayvon, fearing that he's about to be attacked, jumps on Zimmerman. I would say that in that scenario, it was Trayvon that was using the Stand Your Ground law, not Zimmerman even though Trayvon threw the first punch.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

154. That is one of many possible scenarios

IANAL, but I do not believe what you outlined is not considered justification for physically attacking someone.

I have been followed, called n*****, harassed confronted etc in public. I always made sure there were independent witnesses who saw the bubba throw the first few punches before I hammered them. Even then the cops were took a dubious view of me after each of those incidents. I was younger and much more stupid then.

[Downtown Hound]

165. How do you know Zimmerman didn't try and physically stop Trayvon

How do you know he didn't throw the first punch when Trayvon mouthed off to him?

How do you know Zimmerman didn't threaten to beat Trayvon's ass, and Trayvon felt he had no option other than to defend himself?

How do you know he didn't start to pull his gun out, and Trayvon jumped on him to prevent himself from being killed?

There's a lot of things you don't know. And I'll admit I don't either. But what I do know is this: Trayvon Martin would still be alive today if Zimmerman had minded his own damn business and hadn't carried a gun in violation of the rules of neighborhood watch. That alone makes him guilty, and I'm disgusted at all the Zimmerman apologists here.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

174. We are both right...lots of unknowns

Witness statements disagree, the photographic evidence seems to say different things.

One of my concerns on DU about this are those saying the the following and verbal confrontation were enough to justify a physical attack on Zimmerman by Martin. They are in abundance and their outrage is outrunning any sense of perspective. I have not seen an actual Zimmerman apologist here, just those who are waiting to get more details and/or willing to point out that there are some large legal hurdles and with the data released seem to be growing.

Zimmerman clearly owns the moral responsibility for the killing. We shall have to see about the legal results. I'd like to see a manslaughter verdict, but I foresee a hung jury at this point. I was more confident in a conviction before this data was released.

The M$M will try to keep the pot stirred to get more eyeballs etc. Both sides will arrange for favorable data to find its way to the public. Clearly there is much more to come.

[LAGC]

225. I have a feeling that's EXACTLY how it went down.

Unfortunately, with apparently no (living) witnesses, its going to be hard to prove that Zimmerman didn't try to grab Trayvon first.

Hopefully just the fact that he stalked him will be enough for a manslaughter conviction, at least.

[JoePhilly]

157. Probably well after Zimmerman concluded that Martin was a criminal.

[mactime]

30. Unlikely he knew Zimmerman was armed

that is why he assaulted him. Trayvon probably did not realize that Zimmerman was able to defend himself until it was to late

[6000eliot]

32. Who are these people who are defending this thug?

[Ikonoklast]

101. Almost exclusively?

Gunners.

[ljm2002]

67. Talk about assumptions...

...you state that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, with no evidence to back it up.

We do not know who assaulted whom. We do know, however, who instigated the entire incident, and we do know who killed an unarmed young man who had been on his way home and minding his own business.

"Trayvon probably did not realize that Zimmerman was able to defend himself"... Seems to me that Trayvon was the one defending himself. If Trayvon had been the one who was armed, and he shot and killed Zimmerman after an altercation, Trayvon would have been jailed and charged with murder on the spot -- you can take that to the bank.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

90. Indeed we do not know who escalated it to a physical confrontation

By inference the police either did not know or think Trayvon started punching first since they used theory of the seminal event vs Zimmerman starting the physical part of the confrontation.

A key issue is when during a verbal confrontation is it legally permissible to escalate to violence. If I am being pursued by someone on the sidewalk who may be calling me all sorts of names, making accusations, etc, at what point may I attempt to punch him out?

I am not claiming that is what happened, but Zimmerman seems to be building a case that Martin escalated a concerned neighbor asking questions into a physical assault. It is a theory that will need to be rebutted by the prosecution, if possible

[Fumesucker]

124. At the same point you can shoot him...

The point where you reasonably become fearful for your safety.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

126. That is not the legal standard

Why would Martin be in reasonable fear of GBI or death due to a verbal confrontation? Damn hard to prove at this point in court.

[Fumesucker]

130. I can imagine any number of reasons Martin would be fearful of injury..

Evidently you don't find a larger older person with a gun chasing a child through the dark both in a vehicle and on foot to be a fear inducing event for the child.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

146. There is little to support your assertions

Martin was actually a few inches taller than Zimmerman

Martin was 17yo and 6'2" tall. A minor but not a child

There is no independent evidence as to when Zimmerman pulled his gun. He was wearing it concealed and open carry is not legal in FL.

About the only events that we can have some confidence in is that Zimmerman followed Martin and confronted him verbally. Anything more is mostly conjecture and subject to conflicting reports.

There is a huge burden on the prosecutor here. A strong alternative theory, some supporting evidence, and its a hung jury. While I think Zimmerman clearly has moral guilt, not sure where the legal system will take this. Manslaughter would be a win.

[dpibel]

228. Poor kid lost three inches

Between the time of which you speak and the time of the autopsy, when he was 5'11".

[mazzarro]

107. You are full of it!

"Assaulted him"? How do you come to that conclusion that Zimmerman was assaulted by Trayvon? You obviously have concluded that Trayvon is at fault for what happened and that his death was okay with you.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

151. And why, pray-tell, do you assume that Trayvon assault Zimmerman?

Let me guess....Fight Club?

[janx]

218. That makes no sense. Zimmerman could not have defended himself

without a firearm?

[Zorra]

35. This is the first thing I've ever posted in a Trayvon thread.

Those wounds are very superficial. Scalp wounds often bleed profusely.

Note: The walls of the blood vessels are firmly attached to the fibrous tissue of the superficial fascial layer, hence cut ends of vessels here do not readily retract; Even a small scalp wound may bleed profusely.

[Pathwalker]

36. THAT'S a broken nose?

When I broke my nose, it was way, way worse than that. And Trayvon did all that, and only got one 1/4" scrape on his knuckle before George shot him? VERY hard to believe.

[IcyPeas]

39. wait, he supposedly had 2 black eyes too..... his eyes look fine

[slackmaster]

43. The last time I broke my nose, there was almost no external bleeding. The black eyes took about two

...days to fully materialize.

[jenmito]

63. Then where's a picture taken about two days later? If your broken nose had "almost no bleeding,"

that would indicate at least a LITTLE bleeding. And HIS team said he had black eyes.

[slackmaster]

69. Yes, the fact that we haven't seen a picture from two days later PROVES without any doubt...

...that there never will be one published, ergo the whole story is bogus.

[jenmito]

71. If he SAID Trayvon gave him 2 black eyes and a broken nose and swollen lips but the pictures show

otherwise, wouldn't you think they'd show pictures proving their claim? I don't see any of what he claimed in those pics.

[slackmaster]

73. More pictures seem to appear every day

And with every new picture, we get a new round of opinions about how the new image exonerates Zimmerman, or proves that he's guilty of murder.

[jenmito]

75. The fact is there are no black eyes. Zimmerman said he had 2 black eyes, a broken nose, and

swollen lips. Those pics show otherwise.

[slackmaster]

108. My point is that WE ARE BEING PLAYED.

Be patient. You'll get your pics of Zimmerman with black eyes.

[jenmito]

109. So you don't believe he had a broken nose, etc. (like I don't believe?) If so, I didn't know you

were being sarcastic with your comments.

[slackmaster]

110. I don't know whether he had a broken nose or not. That will all come out in the trial...

...if there is one.

We're being toyed with by the media, intentionally I believe, to maintain a high level of interest in the case because it boosts ratings.

One day we get photos of Zimmerman's injuries.

The same day we hear about a person who says Zimmerman was a bully at work, who taunted someone racially.

Next day, Trayvon had THC in his blood.

The timing is too convenient. We're getting a steady stream of bits and pieces that are suitable for feeding EITHER of the major narratives, i.e. the racist thug shot an innocent child version, and the watchful neighborhood watch dude gets attacked by black thug version.

Both stories can't be true, but both can be false or incomplete versions of what really happened.

[jenmito]

117. You're right-both stories can't be true-

and the 911 calls, the cop who first arrived on the scene who didn't believe Zimmerman's story, and even the photos which show nothing but a couple light cuts all back up the "story" that Trayvon was followed, then killed, by Zimmerman.

[HiPointDem]

161. I think you're right (being played). and it's creepy.

[Rex]

133. Now now...

[WilliamPitt]

49. He looks alive to me.

[jenmito]

62. Where's the supposed broken nose (no blood?) and supposed swollen lips (no blood?)? One small

mark on his nose does NOT a broken nose indicate. All those pictures of blood trickling from a couple cuts on his head does NOT indicate he was "beaten within an inch of his life." There's NO broken nose, NO swollen lips, NO black eyes, NO stains on his jacket nor on his shirt.

It looks like Trayvon, in self-defense, didn't do NEARLY what Zimmerman claimed he did (as a supposed "aggressor.&quot

[wandy]

64. Oh yes. It must be real. And only, what, three months later......

Darn, I'm glad they found the film. A picture is worth a thousand words!
Sure glad Jeff Goldblum had his camera with him.
Even at todays processing speeds it might take some time to put the production together.
These must be real also!

One gosh darn ugly looking alien.
But pictures don't lie.

Forgot my opinion.

Dam. I can't wait for the movie!

[spanone]

65. these pictures prove that trayvon martin feared for HIS life.

[DetlefK]

68. please delete

[uponit7771]

72. GREAT CATCH

[DetlefK]

76. Sorry, my bad. On a closer look I was wrong.

I had a closer look and if you wipe off some blood from the two scratches to the upper left, the bruises look very similar.


But that leaves another point:
The original article implicates, that the photos above were shot by the police.
If Zimmerman had bleeding head-wounds AND black eyes AND a swollen lip AND a broken nose (breathing problems?), why was the ambulance called off?
Are those bloody head-wounds visible in the security-feed of the police-station?

[noiretextatique]

91. the paramedics on the scene

concluded that zimmerman's injuries were minor.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

95. Has the paramedic report been released? He did decline treatment.

[noiretextatique]

102. there is a statement from the paramedics

as i recall, the paramedics said his injuries were minor, so they attended to Martin. i don't recall that zimmerman declined treatment. google it...you can find it.

[EFerrari]

81. I don't care if you have a picture of Zimmerman's head being reattached to his neck

Seriously.

[vanlassie]

82. I have more bleeding when I shave my legs

[Cave_Johnson]

183. I would humbly suggest you are doing it wrong then...

[vanlassie]

188. LOL

[Blue_Tires]

84. I'll be the first to say he's still guilty

But thanks for playing

[CreekDog]

94. Hey is this as reliable as your Stormfront sourced fake photo of Trayvon Martin?

and i mean this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002471753

[ProgressiveProfessor]

97. This is from AP, presumptively the rest of the media will be/are carrying it

and will go into more detail about it sourcing

[Blue_Tires]

103. Oh, god I'd completely forgotten about that gem

thanks for the reminder of what I'm dealing with

[-..__...]

182. That was a good one... wudn't it?

here's another one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=554981

The pic is still on my Photobucket account, btw.

Here's the link... http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/556308/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ24

it's still public and open for comment... have at it if you like.

[CreekDog]

190. Look, I don't know why you dont' like us or our ideas, maybe because we are liberals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=366159

but it's clear you don't like lots of people --and in the case of Harvard students, you don't like them not because of them individually, but because of how you think they ALL are.

perhaps that's the same reason you don't like Trayvon Martin.

and what i mean by that, is that you have done lots of defending of Zimmerman, and how did you react to Henry Louis Gates, Jr.?

you've said far worse things about the ENTIRE student body of Harvard University while you have repeatedly defended George Zimmerman

and posted lies about Trayvon Martin.

perhaps you pride yourself on your honesty here.

you shouldn't.

[-..__...]

199. Uhmmm... reread the thread.

And place it in the context that it was posted.

you've said far worse things about the ENTIRE student body of Harvard University while you have repeatedly defended George Zimmerman

In what quote did I state the "ENTIRE" student body of Harvard University, and in what quote did I ever
defend Zimmerman other than posting details of the incident that others here refuse to acknowledge or even spin it in a way that suits their beliefs?

[krispos42]

98. If he started the confrontation, he's got a lot of ground to make up

Florida laws says that, after starting the confrontation, the only way he could shoot in self-defense is if Martin reacted to the provocation with greatly disproportionate force. Since Martin only used his hands, was 10 years and 80 pounds lighter than Zimmerman, and didn't have any special martial-arts skills, I don't see how Martin's response could be greatly disproportionate. If anything, the photos show that Martin didn't have any weapon beyond what Nature gave him.

[Bake]

111. So where are the alleged black eyes?

He looks pretty healthy to me. And Trayvon is still dead.

Bake

[slackmaster]

119. I'll bet you a beer that at least one photo of Zimmerman with black eyes will come out

Maybe within hours.

[librechik]

118. I'm glad Trayvon put up a fight, as he was entitled to.

Why do these wounds vindicate Zimmerman from disobeying police orders by leaving his car, pursuing, confronting and ultimately shooting an unarmed person?

[slackmaster]

120. The police didn't order Zimmerman to do or not do anything

[librechik]

125. Yes indeed they did--he mentioned he was about to pursue, they said don't

as they should. And it was 911 police dispatch he was taking to, not community private security.

Are you going to argue that "we don't need you to do that" means something other than "we don't want you to do that?"

That call is on tape, BTW.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

128. 911 operators have no authority

It was good advice but far from mandatory

[librechik]

142. to Zimmerman, (Not a police officer) it was not a mandate

To the dispatcher, the dispatcher was uttering official police policy in that situation. As a legal paid representative of the police. It wasn't crap or neighborly advice. It was police regulations.

Of course Zimmerman could volunteer to disobey. He was not an official representative of the police. His paycheck wasn't at stake. Only his freedom.

But if that dispatcher had said, yeah, go ahead, and while you are at it, pull out your gun and hold him til we get there, what do you think would have happened to him by now?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

148. It is not recognized as such legally

911 operators are not normally police dispatchers either.

[slackmaster]

162. That was not what would be referred to as a "lawful order" from a law enforcement officer.

"We don't want you do do that" is not the same as "We order you not to do that."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

127. 911 operator suggestions are not the same as police orders

Never have been. It was good advice regardless.

[librechik]

131. I disagree--that person is the public, official voice of the police.

Otherwise, how can they ever testify in court with the proper authority?

I think you will find that person to be perceived as police authority when the issue is in court.

[slackmaster]

135. Dispatchers can testify because they are experts in what they do, and sometimes have to answer...

...questions about what they did and why.

I find it very disturbing, personally, that so many people believe that a dispatcher, or even a police officer, has broad authority to give orders to people who are not under arrest. Officers do under very limited circumstances, and that does not apply to this tragic incident.

The dispatcher's suggestion to Zimmerman was just that. It was good advice.

[librechik]

137. Is the dispatcher paid by the police? If the dispatcher does something against police policy

do they get disciplined? You are missing the forest for the trees. That dispatcher is a police official, and I'm sure if you tried to suggest otherwise to THEM you would get corrected.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

155. Well I just spoke to one here in SoCal

Daughter of a friend of mine. She laughed at being considered a police official.

In her shop they cover multiple jurisdictions (CHP, State, BLM, County, City) and many private ambulance companies.

The position is highly automated...but with cell calls they often have to manually assignments to jurisdictions. Sometimes organizations they dispatch directly, for others they relay.

They fill out templates during the call. It helps them get as much required information as them can. They can type in what they told the caller, but it is also recorded.

They are strictly limited by policy about what they can say or not say. Violations are treated seriously, mostly due to liability.

She was most emphatic that she has no police authority whatsoever. It is drilled into them from day one.


Yes its anecdotal, but it lines up real well from everything else I've read.

[slackmaster]

163. Is the person who empties the trash cans at the police station also a "police official?"

I think you have a poor understanding of the scope of authority of public employees.

[librechik]

166. no, according to FL law, administrator and support personnel are distinct

from dispatchers, which are public safety officers" certified yearly by the police dept.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0400-0499/0401/Sections/0401.465.html

note the first paragraph about jsupport personnel
"However, the term does not include administrative support personnel, including, but not limited to, those whose primary duties and responsibilities are in accounting, purchasing, legal, and personnel."

[slackmaster]

179. Thanks for the clarification. I still say that except under very specific circumstances, a PSO...

...does NOT have general authority to tell people what to do and what not to do.

In an emergency situation such as a fire or flood, or when an individual has been placed under arrest, they have broad powers.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

136. They are not the official voice of the police in any way

They are not sworn LEOs and I believe the precedent is that what they say is advisory in nature only.

That he did not take the advice could well go to his state of mind and culpability in the eyes of jury and should.

[librechik]

144. prove it

[ProgressiveProfessor]

150. Are you serious saying that 911 operators have LEO authority?

That would mean badges and guns...

[hack89]

138. What does the law actually say about obeying 911 operators?

if they are not considered law enforcement officers by law, do they have the authority to order people? I would say no.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

152. A couple of quick google searches turned up the following from somewhat reasonable

sources

http://rwklaw.com/trayvon-martin-shooting-wrongful-death-if-not-murder.html

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-shooting-legal-q

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2012/05/18/abc-legal-analyst-george-zimmerman-has-prove-trayvon-martin-was-initi

[librechik]

167. you should definitely refrain from citing news busters.

Right wing crap anyone?

Here is the Florida law on 911 dispatchers, and they get the same testing and certification as police officer and firemen, within their specialty.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0400-0499/0401/Sections/0401.465.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

176. I missed the newsbusters URL...focused on the ABC Legal Analyst in the title

Would not used it if I had seen it.

The citation you gave requires that they be certified as a "public safety telecommunicator". A good thing but it says nothing about their range of authority.

I am yet to find anything that says they must be obeyed. Found a bunch of horror stories about bad directions that got people killed, but the good ones never make the news.

Still looking for any reference that says they have directive authority over anyone.

[Chorophyll]

122. Wow. Look at that.

Those injuries are almost as bad as being shot to death for walking through the wrong neighborhood with Skittles. Almost.

[Rex]

132. No you've been waiting for this moment.

So you could lord it over people. Sad really...


Of course the LIVE video footage of Zimm walking around the SPD with nary a scratch contradicts all this 'evidence', but that would cause people to think for themselves and I know we cannot have that...

[Electric Monk]

208. Here are some earlier threads of theirs. I think I see a pattern.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=591159
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002471753

[Myrina]

140. ...does that black/orange jacket match

... what he was wearing when he arrived at the cop shop?
Are these photos date/time stamped?

If not, they call into question WHEN these 'injuries' occurred.

[RedCloud]

145. How many more constantly different head wounds will you show us?

ABC released the baboon estrus swelling wound on the top of his head a few days after the story broke.

Then it had released one with a nice straight line a week or so later.

Unlike you, I have a memory and when they keep altering things, suspicion should reign supreme.

e.g. Those twin towers fell! Twin? How about four that fell that day!

To the point, the heart wound caused by Zimmerman was from a gun held at point blank range. He did not shoot to maim, only to kill. Let's see if he even warned the young lad.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

158. Presuming the pictures are valid, its data that should be considered

At some point the forensics should line up. If it does not, then there is a real problem.

Note that there is no legal requirement to wound or warn. One could argue that there is an ethical one, but its not universal.

If they were wrestling on the ground as at least one witness has stated, anything other than a torso shot would have been very hard to do.

[CreekDog]

164. enough to make you and I think that Zimmerman is innocent --that's what ...___.. wants, clearly...

and it's true most of us want the system to handle Trayvon Martin's death properly and some sort of justice or process.

but some here, want Zimmerman found not guilty or not charged.

is it any wonder that most of these same people advocate against many of our candidates, many of our liberal voters, many of our political positions, if not, most of the reasons why most of us are here?

and now they are on the Zimmerman side of things.

it's so transparent anymore.

[-..__...]

189. "Trayvon Martin's death properly and some sort of justice or process."...

Is this the system you're referring to?...



Because from the start (and even now), it sure as fuck seems that way.

[Blue_Tires]

193. Funny you mention that

This was once a regular occurrence in the south for certain people...I'm sure you know this all too well....

[-..__...]

207. Times have changed...

now the lynch mob doesn't even have to leave the comfort and convenience of their homes and keyboards
in their desire to burn someone at the stake.

[Blue_Tires]

212. Please spare me the 'lynch mob' hyperbole

because it cheapens the real, life-and-death ordeals my not-so-distant ancestors went through for generations with the full approval of the legal authorities...(This isn't just you; I see the term casually thrown around on DU to insult our side and I've been meaning to say something about it)

You know where I stand on this case, and why I have a vested personal interest...You can search my posts if you like, but from the very beginning I'm *pretty* sure I haven't said anything much stronger than "Zimmerman should be arrested," at first; then "Zimmerman should be charged with first-degree murder," and "Zimmerman should not have been given bail because he's a flight risk."...I had much stronger vitriol against the cops, who I'm certain have tried to sabotage this case from the start...

Yes, people naturally talk bigger than themselves under the cloak of the internet, but nothing that gets typed online can hurt Zimmerman...He's free on bail, walking the streets like you or me while he awaits his constitutionally mandated fair trial...There is no lynch mob -- A hypothetical real one would have carried him away that night, whipped him, beaten him until his bones turned to jelly, shot him, then hung him, then cut off his fingers, toes and ears to toss to cheering spectators, and then finally set aflame while everyone posed for a photo...If his family felt brave enough the next day, they might venture to the site to cut him down for a burial...Otherwise the body stays in the tree as a stark reminder for everyone else...George Zimmerman may or may not be sleeping soundly at night, but the one thing he never has to worry about is having his door kicked in by that crowd...

Yeah, some posters are a little more over-the-top than others in their zeal for justice, but don't ever confuse a keyboard lynch mob with a real one, even rhetorically...Only one of those could ever actually hurt Zimmerman...

[CreekDog]

197. Then why did you post a fake photo of Trayvon Martin --then don't claim moral high ground

like i said, you don't like us Democrats and liberals here and you remind us of that every day.

you savaged Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and you savaged EVERY Harvard University student calling them all sorts of expletives, and you defend Zimmerman.

and now you're claiming to be fair minded?

[jenmito]

149. Forget the pictures. This ONE sentence from the police dept. is all you have to know:

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

156. Its been clear for quite some time that Zimmerman bears the moral responsibility for this

What comes out legally remains to be seen.

I'd like to see a manslaughter like verdict. I expect a hung jury.

[JoePhilly]

159. I think you are about right.

From what we know so far ...

Zimmerman wants to be in law enforcement. So he's regularly out patrolling the streets for bad guys. His intent is not to kill anyone, but to CATCH a criminal. Become a hero. And then maybe get into a real law enforcement role.

Meanwhile ... we have Martin. A bored kid. Goes to the store. Heads home.

Zimmerman sees Martin and follows him, assuming Martin is a thug of some kind. Martin sees Zimmerman and gets scared, calls the girlfriend and tells her some weird guy is following him.

Zimmerman has called the cops, who tell him to stand down. But he decides to continue to follow Martin. Martin tries to take a different path home, Zimmerman cuts him off and confronts Martin.

So now we have Martin, who thinks he's cornered a criminal thug, and Martin, a scared kid in what for him is an unfamiliar neighborhood.

Zimmerman tries to detain Martin. Tells him to sat y put until the police arrive. Martin says No. Starts to leave. Zimmerman grabs his arm ... Martin hits him. And it cascades from there.

Now I know some will question the last part of the above. But it makes total sense.

Zimmerman wants to CATCH a criminal. He's called the police. If they arrive and the thug is gone, he knows the cops will be ticked. And that's why he has to detain Martin. If Martin leaves, Zimmerman has nothing. He called the cops for basically no reason.

And that's his motive for trying to physically detain Martin. He doesn't want to shot him, he wants to CATCH him.

And so, Zimmerman tries to "hold" Martin ... maybe just grab his arm. Or maybe more. Maybe try to block his path. But keep him there.

Martin is scared. So he decides to defend himself. He fights back. Zimmerman gets scared, and shoots Martin.

Zimmerman didn't plan to kill Martin, but Zimmerman's actions cause the escalation of events, up to Zimmerman pulling the trigger.

Manslaughter.

Unless the police bungled things so badly that the evidence is such a mess that no jury can come to agreement.

[Vattel]

211. The story you tell might be true--

but it might not. Maybe Zimmerman didn't try to detain Martin. Maybe Martin foolishly decided to play the tough guy by assaulting the asshole who had been following him. You have no idea. You weren't there.

[JoePhilly]

227. And sadly, we'll only get to hear one side of the story.

What we do know is that it is Zimmerman is provoking the action throughout ... and Martin is retreating throughout.

Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. And we know Martin was afraid.

So the defense can try to argue that the dead kid went from being afraid and retreating, to becoming the aggressor.

Or, the person who's pushing the events forward throughout, simply continued to do so, until events spiraled out of control.

[jenmito]

160. I think he'll get manslaugher.

Once the common sense line in my above post is read in court since it's from the official report, any injuries should be irrelevant.

[Jamastiene]

170. Yes, it does.

If someone comes after a person, they are going to try to defend themselves. If a person comes after them with a gun, they are going to try even harder to defend themselves. Fight or flight. If someone is following a person with a gun, that person is most likely going to fight as if their life is on the line...and Trayvon Martin's life was on the line... and sadly ended too soon, when that could have easily been avoided had Zimmermen not pursued him with a gun, confronted him, then killed him.

[jenmito]

178. Exactly. n/t

[slackmaster]

180. I agree with that opinion

[Jamastiene]

169. I've gotten more and worse cuts than that doing yard work.

But, you go right on defending the unnecessary death of an unarmed 19 year old.

[janx]

173. Please note the second to last page of discovery here:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf

It contains the paramedics' report. Thanks.

He had an abrasion on his forehead, a one-inch laceration on the back of his head, and a bloody nose.

This seems consistent with what I see in the photos you posted, except that there seems to be another abrasion on the back of his head.

[Arkana]

195. Are you shitting me?

I've dug up giant thorn bushes and looked worse than that afterwards. What happened to the severe contusions? The black eyes?

[Marrah_G]

198. He picked a fight with a teenager

You can't pick a fight and then cry self defense......

[Whisp]

204. those scratches are worth the life of a kid?

eh?
I get better wounds than that playing Monopoly.

[morningfog]

214. And who will be the first to say this excuses murder?

Oh, too late.

[Zanzoobar]

220. I have no problem waiting for the trial

Wherein 99.99999999% of the evidence not currently known to every cub reporter will be exposed, explained, expounded, expropriated, extenuated, exlaxed, and x-rayed.

There is absolutely no reason in the world to judge before the circus comes to town.