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[Corruption Inc]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Corruption Inc) on Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:04 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. Ok. Fine . I like Nader. But there can be no reasonable doubt that....

... given an honest count ( which of course was unavailable) that - in an election where there was a gap or fewer than a thousand votes between Bush and Gore - Gore would easily have taken the vast majority of the 90,000 plus Nader votes ( Yes I understand a portion of which would have not voted at all were Nader not on the ballot.) and thereby carried FLA by a relatively comfortable margin.

Again: Nader's an OK guy; but let's be honest before we start to pretend.

[DLnyc]

6. Great guy, stupid tactics.

Running a third-party progressive campaign in a close election in a large swing state helps the conservative candidate.

Throwing the election so he could make his abstract third-party point was a very juvenile, and stupid, move.

[noiretextatique]

12. let's be honest: SCOTUS stopped the recount

with an anti-democratic, partisan decision. i could care less about the candidates, including Nader. SCOTUS cost Gore the election. i am still fuming about that.

[brooklynite]

46. But it didn't matter...

...because Nader thought Bush and Gore were the same.

[noiretextatique]

55. right...

and i thought the democratic process was supposedly sacred...my bad. i am still shocked that the people who subverted that process get less blame than one person who participated in it.

[Smarmie Doofus]

69. Both of these statements can be true:

1. SCOTUS stole the election by stopping the recount.

2. Had Nader NOT been on the ballot in Fla. it is highly likely that Gore's plurality over Bush would have been so substantial that it would have made a recount unnecessary.

Nothing inconsistent in the two statements.... far as I can see.

[noiretextatique]

71. yet only one of them can exist in a democracy

is running for office a crime? until it is, hysteria about people running against your preferred candidate is just hysteria. and a partisan court is still the glaring problem. why do you excuse the final arbiter?

[TM99]

59. Still with that myth.

No, even if all 90,000 had voted for Gore, 12% of registered Democrats voted for GW Bush. That means about 350,000 votes that could have and should have gone for Gore did not.

So, in no reasonable since is 90,000 comparable to 350,000 in continuing the myth that Nader screwed Gore in FL. In fact, it was cross-over Democrats who screwed Gore in FL.

[madokie]

66. Are you sure it wasn't the hanging chads

or whatever they called it back then and not democratic voters actually voting for the Little Boots Shrub

[tecelote]

60. I only hope Trump leaves the GOP and does the same thing this election.

[haikugal]

2. Nader has done wonderful things for the people of this country...

I have no problem giving him kudos for his lifelong efforts.

[840high]

93. +1

[Nye Bevan]

3. If he had urged his supporters to vote for Al Gore,

Bush would never have been president. I can't forgive him for that.

[Taitertots]

40. If Gore urged his supporters to vote for Nader, we might not have had Bush

Isn't wild speculation about the past wonderful.

If Gore had urged more people to vote for Gore....

[TheBlackAdder]

103. That's just a silly retort--one not based in reality. nt

[onehandle]

4. You're promoting a perennial third party candidate and a third party itself at DU?

At the same time you are 'supporting' Senator Sanders?

Interesting.

Ralph Nader 2000 Campaign Interview:
Will Ralph Nader become Al Gore's worst nightmare?

Of more immediate interest, at least to Al Gore, are Nader's respectable poll numbers: 7 to 10 percent in California as of June, 6 percent nationally. If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election.

Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn't be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush."

http://www.outsideonline.com/1837851/ralph-nader-2000-campaign-interview

Nader flew back and forth between California and Florida, finally spending the most of the last few weeks in Florida, and fulfilling his goal of a Bush Presidency.

Mission Accomplished! Eight years of Bush. Thirty years of a right-wing SCOTUS. Citizens United. Massive illegal redistricting. Gun insanity. Permanent state of war. Etc, etc, etc...

[ann---]

5. Yes, he did

had he not run, Gore would have received that 3% and won
easily over Bush. Nader can blame himself for the war in
Iraq and all the consequences we are seeing now.

[rock]

7. Even so the Supreme Court had to commit a crime

in order to install w. A crime for which 5 of them should have been (successfully) impeached.

[ann---]

17. It would not have gone

to the Supreme Court because Gore would
have won enough electoral votes to win.

[rock]

19. So now, don't you see, that you're arguing

It was Nader's fault because he enabled the Supreme Court to do the misdeed.

[ann---]

25. No, it was Nader's

fault because if he did not run Gore would have received the
necessary popular votes to win in enough states to win the
electoral votes.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html

[rock]

29. OK

I'm NOT even going to argue that if Tom Edison hadn't invented the light bulbs SCOTUS would not to have been able to put together their ruling. (Remember, I'm NOT making this argument!)

[noiretextatique]

58. some people still cling to this fantasy

if nader had not legally participated in the democratic process, scotus would not have issued the partisan decision. bullshit. let's assume nader was not in the race, and a recount was still needed: who would to be to blame then?

[Democat]

61. Nader was the reason Gore didn't become president

The Supreme Court and voters throwing away their votes didn't help, but none of that would have mattered if Nader would have dropped out when it became clear that he was helping Bush.

[ann---]

64. Exactly

[tavernier]

86. Yup. Mr. Ego can share

the credit for dubya's legacy - Iraq, the recession, the hatred of us that has led to ISIS - And worst of all, he KNEW this was all very possible, even had the balls to make jokes about how both candidates would lead to the same outcome.

Sorry, no Peace Prize from me.
He's no better than Karl Rove in my book, with whom, I understand, he was pretty chummy.

[brush]

8. No thank you. We've not gotten over his boneheaded 2000 run . . .

which greatly contributed to the Bush cabal being able to steal the presidency.

Nader blew his whole legacy with the ego-driven move.

[samsingh]

9. i think nader is a self important jerk who did cause Gore to lose

[JoePhilly]

10. Shouldn't this be over on 3rdPartyUnderground?

Screw Nader.

He did not help us keep Bush out of the White House.

[Brother Buzz]

11. Nader killed the Covair in the press, a car I liked

All the car magazines I read at the time thought Nader was wrong. Heck, even a 1972 safety commission report conducted by Texas A&M University came to that conclusion:

A 1972 safety commission report conducted by Texas A&M University concluded that the 1960–1963 Corvair possessed no greater potential for loss of control than its contemporary competitors in extreme situations.[23] The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) issued a press release in 1972 describing the findings of NHTSA testing from the previous year. NHTSA had conducted a series of comparative tests in 1971 studying the handling of the 1963 Corvair and four contemporary cars—a Ford Falcon, Plymouth Valiant, Volkswagen Beetle, and Renault Dauphine—along with a second-generation Corvair (with its completely redesigned, independent rear suspension). The 143-page report reviewed NHTSA's extreme-condition handling tests, national crash-involvement data for the cars in the test as well as General Motors' internal documentation regarding the Corvair's handling.[1] NHTSA went on to contract an independent advisory panel of engineers to review the tests. This review panel concluded that "the 1960–63 Corvair compares favorably with contemporary vehicles used in the tests [...] the handling and stability performance of the 1960–63 Corvair does not result in an abnormal potential for loss of control or rollover, and it is at least as good as the performance of some contemporary vehicles both foreign and domestic."

[MineralMan]

20. I drove a red 1960 Corvair for about a year.

Since I drive quite sanely, no handling problems ever occurred. By the time Nader's book came out, the Corvair had been redesigned to prevent the problem when the car was driven more aggressively than it was designed to be. It was a shame that an innovative American car met the untimely end it had.

The rear-engine air-cooled design was innovative and fresh. A pity that was the end of that experiment. Driven in a normal way, the 60-63 Corvair was just fine. If you pushed it to its limit, it responded in a way American drivers, used to front-engine vehicles, didn't expect. But you really had to push the car beyond reason to reach that point. Same thing happened with the VW Bug and several Porsche models, too.

I hate that Nader spiked that innovation from GM. And all for a little bit of money...and it's a beautiful day...

[Taitertots]

41. Have you read "unsafe at any speed"?

The suspension design was flawed and it caused people to die.

[MineralMan]

45. Yes, I've read it. I've ready other studies, too.

It was a good little car. People died in Falcons, Valiants, Studebaker Larks, Volkswagens and other small cars, as well. People died later in Pintos as well. In fact, people die in all car models. Often, the reason they die is because they drove poorly, drunk, or carelessly.

[Taitertots]

48. So you must have seen the obvious design defect

People get into accidents all the time; But the corvair was especially vulnerable to a specific type of accident.

[MineralMan]

50. I know exactly what the design problem was.

I've owned three different car with rear engines and swing axles. All used the same basic design for the rear suspension, and all were heavier in the rear and prone to sudden oversteer and jacking when normal driving parameters were exceeded.

I drove my 1960 Corvair 700 model over 20,000 miles in the year I owned, and never once encountered that behavior. Why? Because I never pushed it beyond its capabilities. The same was true for my 1958 VW beetle and my 1956 Porsche 356. All had virtually the same characteristics. I drove all three aggressively, but within their parameters.

I know cars from that period from first hand experience. Do you?

[Major Nikon]

63. "especially vulnerable"

Less so than pretty much all other cars in it's class. Nader lifted his data from lawsuits and hearsay, not comparative testing done with cars in the same class. The Corvair was not "especially vulnerable". It was especially not vulnerable. The NHTSA commissioned two different studies which included comparative testing and found exactly the opposite conclusions from Nader's half-baked horseshit.

"It is the opinion of the panel that the Corvair quantitatively meets or exceeds the standards set by contemporary cars in stability tests, cornering tests, and rollover tests," and, "for this reason the panel concluded that the 1960-63 Corvair does not have a safety defect, and is not more unstable or more likely to roll over than contemporary cars."

PB 211-014

To say that this was a significant accomplishment of Nader is exactly backwards. Nader killed a car that was safer than its contemporaries and undoubtedly cost lives. The fact that Nader never admitted his obvious fuckup is a testament to just how big of an asshole he is.

Fuck Ralph Nader.

[MineralMan]

70. Thanks for posting that NHTSA info. I would have, but

I was posting from a tablet on my last post and it's way difficult to copy and paste from it.

The saddest thing of all is that GM redesigned the rear suspension of the Corvair in 1964 for better handling. Too late, though, because the publicity from Nader's book had effectively killed this interesting car.

Nader's book made him some money, but destroyed an innovative car design. My 1960 Corvair was an interesting, fun car to drive. The gas-fired heater was an interesting innovation, as well, although not one of the car's most endearing features. Still, when I bought it in 1969 for $100, Nader's book was responsible for its low price. I kept it for a year, and replaced it with a 1959 Austin Healey bug-eye Sprite that I found in a barn and paid $200 for. Wish I still had the Sprite. I did see a 1960 Corvair for sale locally recently for $1000, but it can be tough to find parts today for them. Still, I thought seriously about buying it, just for fun and to take to the local old-car show that runs weekly near my home.

[Renew Deal]

13. Let's hear it for the Iraq War, Roberts & Alito, Scooter Libby, no WMD's, ignored PDB's

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)

We should be grateful because we would have never known about these things if it weren't for Nader.

[noiretextatique]

73. you forgot about SCOTUS

the people who actually stopped the recount that would have proven gore the winner. it puzzles me that some still blame nader while exempting scotus, until prompted to do so.

[Renew Deal]

79. You're right. Nader made the theft possible.

By keeping it close.

[noiretextatique]

81. scotus was the thief

you can blame the theft on whatever you like, but it doesn't change the fact that scotus stopped the recount, not nader. and stopping the recount handed bush the election, because gore would have won the recount, even with nader in the race.

[cascadiance]

14. Those who don't want third party spoilers should push more for instant runoff voting...

... instead of bashing third party candidates like Nader. Perot's candidacy also helped illustrate people's big frustration with NAFTA very appropriately at the time. We need that voice this time around to also protest what the corporate elements of both party have done to push through TPA and likely other bills TPP, TISA, etc. later. Fortunately Bernie Sanders is running within the primary to avoid this splitting effect, but if we had instant runoff voting, we could have third party voices be able to give us a lot more temperature reading of what the voting populace wants, but not at the risk of having the best of the two major party candidates (which all of us know are the Democrats), losing when votes are cast for third party candidates in today's winner take all system (that instant runoff voting *fixes*).

We all win, and we hear and understand more the support for other party's voices accurately. That will help decent Democratic candidates know what the voters want more to ensure that they adapt their platform to meet what those needs are to fit with their ideology.

If we had instant runoff voting in Florida in 2000, we likely would have had a president Gore as the counts likely wouldn't have been as close as they were to allow the Supreme Court to stop it then.

[Gothmog]

15. Nader gave Bush the election

The attempts to rewrite history and ignore the facts are sad

[Taitertots]

42. People voting for Bush "gave" the election to Bush

AND voters purges, stopping the recount, misleading ballots....

[Gothmog]

43. Ralph Nader Was Indispensable To The Republican Party

Rewriting history is sad http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Ralph Nader was crucial to George W. Bush's win in 2000 against Al Gore. But Nader turned out to be superfluous to then-President Bush's win against John Kerry in 2004. Nader was trying to do damage to the Democratic Party, and he succeeded in 2000, but not in 2004. In fact, in 2000, he turned out to be the most indispensable person of all to the George W. Bush "win." And Nader was secretly ecstatic about that. Here are the details:

NADER MADE GEORGE W. BUSH PRESIDENT.

Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called "Florida and New Hampshire" simply "the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket," when Cook was writing about "The Next Nader Effect," in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, "Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush's Florida 'win']. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush's 'win' in that state]." If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States -- even more indispensable, and more important to Bush's "electoral success," than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation's chief Ken Lay.

All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn't even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn't count in these calculations at all.) Nader's 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida "victory" for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, "Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?" (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, "We find that ... Nader was a spoiler for Gore." David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, "Nader to Crash Dems Party?" and he wrote: "In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader's Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore's loss." Nationwide, Harvard's Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, "Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?" (also on the internet) presented "Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates," showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader's voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn't have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn't been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida's Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn't included Nader. Clearly, Ralph Nader drew far more votes from Gore than he did from Bush, and on this account alone was an enormous Republican asset in 2000.

Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Nader's campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the AP's Laura Meckler headlined "GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads." She opened: "Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... 'Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of,' Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: 'What's Al Gore's real record?' Nader says: 'Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken.'" Meckler's report continued: "A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Nader's speeches." Bush's people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.

Karl Rove ran commercials for Nader to help him win. The facts are clear that Nader is the reason why we have Citizens United and why the Voting Rights Act was gutted

[Taitertots]

44. Nader got 100,000 votes in a state with millions of potential voters

The millions of idiots that voted for Bush or didn't vote at all caused the 2000 debacle. Combined with fraud and Supreme Court malfeasance.

Gore failed because (in addition to fraud/Supreme Court BS) he wasnt charismatic/populist enough to get people to support him. Obama/Biden is tour du force of charisma and popular political statements.

There were millions of swing potential voters. Blaming Nader personally for getting 100,000 votes is just unreasonable.

[noiretextatique]

16. thank you for your tireless efforts

mr. nader.

[taught_me_patience]

18. Fuck that piece of shit

He caused Bush to win that election, period.

[El Supremo]

78. ditto

[Orangepeel]

21. Lots of things contributed to Gore's "loss". I'm not cheering for any of them

In my opinion, Nader has a commendable history as a consumer advocate, an ego the size of a house, and the tendency to be a self righteous hypocritical asshole.

He certainly isn't the only and probably isn't the main reason that Gore didn't take office. But at the very least, he could have easily helped prevent *Bush* from taking office. Instead, he actively chose to hurt Gore's chances, resulting in a great deal of harm to the world and zero benefit to the causes Nader supposedly championed.

So fuck him.

[Godhumor]

22. Yeah, no. Fuck that guy. n/t

[Lil Missy]

23. Fuck Nader. n/t

[pnwmom]

24. Nader was a KEY factor in the loss of Florida. He got 95,000 votes there

and Gore only lost by 500.

So even despite the lost Democratic voters, the confusing ballot, and the illegal purging, Gore would have won if only a tiny fraction of Nader's voters had voted for Gore instead.

And he was no doubt having fond memories of this recently, as he opined about the possibility of a Trump candidacy:

“The Republican Party establishment is playing with nitroglycerine when it goes after Donald Trump and tries to minimize him and exclude him,” Nader told CNN this week. “Because a jilted Donald Trump as a third-party candidate can blow the presidential race wide open and turn it into a three way race.”

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/24/take_it_from_a_guy_who_knows_ralph_nader_says_donald_trumps_third_party_bid_could_be_kryptonite_for_gop/

[noiretextatique]

72. and the recount stopped by SCOTUS

had nothing at all to do with gore's "loss?"

[pnwmom]

92. It wouldn't have gone to SCOTUS if Nader hadn't been the spoiler on the ballot.

Nader's 95,000 Florida votes changed everything.

[HFRN]

26. funny how they can blame Nader, yet ignore Gore's choice of Neocon Lieberman for VP

lame as hell

[Peacetrain]

27. rewriting history don't make it so..

Nadar kneecapped Gore..

[HFRN]

28. The greatest irony of terrorism, is that the most likely attack you'd ever get

would be from your own steering column

and it was an arab, that put an air pillow between it and you

[Drunken Irishman]

30. Nader was a liar in 2000.

His lying helped Bush. Indirectly, he was campaigning for a George Bush presidency. He has just as much blood on his hands as the people who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. Fuck Nader.

[hollysmom]

31. I may be ignorant ut I am not stupid, I remember the vote count

they could have never stole enough votes if Nader had not run. he even said he would pull out if it was close, and he didn't.
Unless you mean that Gore won, which is true.

[oldandhappy]

32. kudos for the environment and a brick bat for the election

[lancer78]

33. citizens united

Congratulations Ralph Nader, your legacy is intact.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. ***

[SidDithers]

37. Yup...

one that's been around the block a few times.

Sid

[SidDithers]

35. Fuck Ralph Nader...

He and the Republicans speak with just1voice. He's wrong more often than a broken Starburst Clock.

Sid

[Major Nikon]

62. ...and the horse he rode in on

[Archae]

36. Nader is a petty dictator, viciously anti-union, andd worse.

http://realchange.org/nader.htm

[Mona]

38. His insistence that both parties...

...are essentially the same, further solidifies my opinion of him, which is not good.

[hobbit709]

47. BBRRAAPP!!

[Rex]

49. You'll have to excuse the fake outrage, the usual suspects cannot come up

with any way to deflect from the LA murderer being a Tea Party wingnut. So it frustrates them into foaming about old canards.

[joshcryer]

51. This shit again.

[napi21]

52. The SCOTUS is completely at fault! THEY stopped the counting!

When the NY paper actually COUNTED THE VOTES, Gore had WON!

Nader didn't help, but he wasn't the cause either.

[noiretextatique]

65. +1000 SCOTUS is the culprit

unless you are a 'democrat against democracy'...then it is all nader's fault.

[LiberalElite]

56. Will I live to see the end of people bickering about Nader?

It's nearly 15 years later. Does this really serve any purpose beyond venting spleen?

[Flying Squirrel]

57. What about NH?

A major contributing factor to Bush's victory is that 5% of the state {NH} voted for a third party candidate, mostly for left-leaning Green Party candidate Ralph Nader, who took votes away from Gore. (Interestingly, there has been much focus on the Nader vote in Florida as the determining factor in swinging the election to Bush, but a much smaller number of Nader voters in New Hampshire made a difference in the state's electoral vote going to Bush. If less than half of the approximately 22,000 Nader votes in New Hampshire had been cast for Gore, he would have received the state's electoral votes and been elected President.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_New_Hampshire,_2000

So, fuck Nader. He may have done a lot for consumers, but to me it is far outweighed by his impact on the Supreme Court, the country and the world through his arrogant, shortsighted actions in 2000.

[tabasco]

67. Fuck that little POS narcissist

That is all.

[Adrahil]

68. Hey Ralph! Fuck off you egomanianc! nt

[KoKo]

91. All Nader's Fault...let's Stone Him...when the facts are against any of that.............

You know better if you know any real history of that Historic Florida Corrupt Election.

Gore Won...by a slim margin but ENOUGH. Look at what happened to America ...AFTER THAT VOTE!

[Adrahil]

94. Suuuureee. Nader being there had no effect. And then you wake up.

At least have the integrity to own up. Ralph screwed us over for the sake of his ego.

[malaise]

74. I thank him for my seat belt

quite often

[noiretextatique]

75. blaming nader for bush is like blaming the fly on the elephant's ass

instead of the elephant. for fuck's sake: scotus slammed a judicial coup down our collective throat and some are still blaming the fly and not the elephant.

[elleng]

76. DAMN RIGHT!

The guy's been batting for us for his entire career, and people COMPLAIN about him!

[Skittles]

77. I used to respect him

until his ego helped to install Dubya into the White House

you can quibble all you want but there's no denying if Nader was a factor

[KoKo]

80. Okay...but what did Nader do BEFORE what You think he did which is the RW View...

that the Left has Taken on and Perpetuated?

Do you know what Ralph Nader Did to Protect "Consumers?"

Yet the "Selection 2000" MEME that Nader cost the 2000 Selection when the Election was Lost by the U.S. Supreme Court Decision stopping the Florida Voting Count was the factor in that Election. Plus Florida denying the Votes of Thousands of Eligible Voters and Gore Caving.

Those are the Facts.

[Skittles]

82. YES I KNOW WHAT HE DID

I also know HIS EGO HELPED TO INSTALL DUBYA INTO THE WHITE HOUSE

[KoKo]

88. His Ego helped to install Bush into the WH?

All on its own...his EGO. You ignore the Facts?

[ann---]

85. If Nader

was not in the race - period - all those Nader votes
in ALL the other states would have gone to Gore and there would be
no NEED for a recount - or a Supreme Court
intervention.

Those are the facts.

[GummyBearz]

87. I guess Gore wasnt good enough to get his own base to vote for him

I drink, shower in, and make lemonade out of the tears of Nader haters.

Any body can run for office in this country. We have whats called a democracy, and thats a good thing. Ralph Nader is an amazing individual who has done far more good than the vast majority of people in this country. His birthday should be a national holiday

[ann---]

98. He's not

"amazing" to me. He's a egomaniac who indirectly
caused the Iraq war.

[noiretextatique]

83. scotus created a one-time only bush-specific law

to install that asshole in the white house. i am shocked that people still blame nader considering the treasonous scotus decision that stopped that recount which would have proven gore the winner.

[Skittles]

84. I KNOW NADER WAS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR

BUT HE *WAS* A FACTOR

[KoKo]

90. You want to blame it on Nader and Ignore the Corrupted Fla Voting Machines,

Disinfranchisement of Florida Voters by Katherine Harris and then the US Supreme Court who Stopped the Count ...over ruling the Florida Supreme Court's Action to ALLOW VOTE COUNT TO CONTINUE!

Come on Skittles ....You are a long time DU'er. You must remember the years we DU'ers spent on Debunking the False Bush Crime Family Distortions and Lies about that Election.

Ever since though ....there have been those blaming it on Ralph Nader when in fact Florida got votes from Pat Buchanan and he EVEN SAID it wasn't "They" that stole the Florida Election for Bush it was faulty "Punch Card Ballots." Buchanan even laughed at the amount of votes he got and wrote an article about it.

Yet we Dems want to BLAME NADER? Yeah...for sure we do.

[Skittles]

96. OMFG

you want to ignore that asshole as a FACTOR (did you miss that part?) - go right ahead....I will DESPISE him for the rest of my days

*DONE HERE*

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

89. YES!

[redstateblues]

95. More Nader Denialism. Still trying to justify

Enabling Bush to win. Pitiful

[Maru Kitteh]

97. Fuc that pompous turd waffle. n/t

Ok. I lied. Sideways. With a poorly constructed paper mache phallus comprised of hanging chads.

[CanSocDem]

99. Americans aren't interested in democracy.

All they really want is a cheap, relatively safe car and drugs they can afford. That is why the great American institutions are General Motors and the pharmaceutical industry.

And they need someone to blame. It's the American Way.




.

[mac56]

100. Why has Crusader Rabbit Nader never run for any other office?

Senator? Representative? Mayor? Dog catcher?

The answer should be obvious. He doesn't give a rip-roaring shit about public service. He only wanted to be a Presidential spoiler.

Fuck Ralph.

[CanSocDem]

101. "He doesn't give a rip-roaring shit about public service." ????

Are you suggesting that "senators, etc." serve the public interest? You seem confused.



.

[mac56]

102. Are you suggesting that NONE of them do?

(*cough*) Bernie Sanders (*cough*)

I feel sorry for you.

Since entering the political arena, Ralph has never displayed any interest in serving any body of constituents.

[CanSocDem]

104. Look around....

Meanwhile, inform yourself of the work Ralph Nader has done for the American citizen. Would you consider them "a body of constituents"?

https://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=183

I seriously doubt Americans have the courage to vote for change. You're already "exceptional", right?




.

[mac56]

105. "You're already "exceptional", right?"

Seriously? Going directly to the snark, are we?

I respected Ralph a great deal in his early career. He was brilliant. He since became a spoof of his former self. Fat Elvis.

[CanSocDem]

106. Pardon my tone.

But you should have focused on "...Americans are afraid to vote for change." Why they(you) don't, is because the majority of you think you already have it pretty good(exceptional).

He ran for POTUS because, as everybody else could see, your government was working against your interests. Didn't matter who sat in the WH, the industrial ruling class was making the decisions.

Nader realized this in his decades of battles on behalf of you and even me as a Canadian.

Bush had already been picked as the next POTUS. Are you completely oblivious to the efforts made to insure this...???

The attacks on Ralph Nader are attacks on Consumer Awareness.



.

[mac56]

107. Not pardoned.

[olddots]

108. remember who voted and worked for Nader not Nader himself

who is like any fallen human who wants fame ,fortune and power .
The Nader fringe are allways out there disinfranchised and confused .