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Octafish

(55,745 posts)
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:34 AM Jul 2015

First they came for ConsortiumNews, and I did not speak out—

Because I did not read ConsortiumNews.

Then they came for CounterPunch, and I did not speak out—
Because I did not read CounterPunch.

Then they came for Alternet, and I did not speak out—
Because I did not read Alternet.

Then they came for DU—and there was no one left to speak for Democracy.

With apologies to Rev. Niemöller.





First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.



Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

SOURCE: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392


544 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
First they came for ConsortiumNews, and I did not speak out— (Original Post) Octafish Jul 2015 OP
K&R! marym625 Jul 2015 #1
When Money is Speech... Octafish Jul 2015 #9
Hilarious thread. Thank you for raising the alarm uhnope Jul 2015 #102
He has managed to piss off the right people RobertEarl Jul 2015 #115
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #421
Bartcop was awesome 90-percent Jul 2015 #112
What Skinner wrote about Bartcop... Octafish Jul 2015 #133
I'm one of those who came here via BartCop Oilwellian Jul 2015 #215
"When Money is Speech..." and "Money Trumps Peace" (GWB).. there, I fixed that for you... Ghost in the Machine Jul 2015 #124
Thank you for the kind correction. Octafish Jul 2015 #138
"Thank you for standing up for the good fight, Ghost in the Machine." Thank YOU, Octafish.... Ghost in the Machine Jul 2015 #148
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #418
Excellent post. newthinking Jul 2015 #504
You're right about people waking up to the manipulation. I USED to think that sabrina 1 Jul 2015 #512
OMG marym625 Jul 2015 #224
Consortium News? Really? MineralMan Jul 2015 #2
No, ConsortiumNews is an excellent resource. For example, Ray McGovern on matters of high treason... Octafish Jul 2015 #14
That's just horse patooty. That story was WIDELY carried in the "regular" news media. MADem Jul 2015 #86
How about The New York Times? Wall Street Journal? ABC? CNN? CBS? NBC? Octafish Jul 2015 #98
You can do your own homework--but here, let me show you just how MISTAKEN you are.... MADem Jul 2015 #103
slam dunk. I wonder if that will cause ANY pause at all uhnope Jul 2015 #110
What diatribe of BS, uhnope? Octafish Jul 2015 #116
um, this whole thread. And the post we are talking about, were BS posts uhnope Jul 2015 #127
So, you can't show where I'm wrong. Octafish Jul 2015 #156
Hardly... SidDithers Jul 2015 #126
Like clockwork: ad hominem and SidDithers of DU. Octafish Jul 2015 #159
You promote writers like Israel Shamir and Christopher Bollyn at DU... SidDithers Jul 2015 #161
Where did I promote them? Octafish Jul 2015 #163
And some would alert, hide, lock and censor everyone that doesn't march to the "correct" rhett o rick Jul 2015 #206
... SidDithers Jul 2015 #208
Perfect. That emoticon really says it all. When all else fails you, ridicule. nm rhett o rick Jul 2015 #209
... SidDithers Jul 2015 #212
A typical response from this site's hifiguy Jul 2015 #312
... SidDithers Jul 2015 #313
You got that right! polly7 Jul 2015 #322
Before Chomsky, Wittgenstein recognized the strategy. Octafish Jul 2015 #243
There must be a shortage of straw in your area treestar Jul 2015 #246
Results: bravenak Jul 2015 #227
Lol! zappaman Jul 2015 #230
Awesome... SidDithers Jul 2015 #254
This message was self-deleted by its author Long Drive Jul 2015 #334
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #419
... SidDithers Jul 2015 #420
I doubt it--it will be pivot-turn-change subject. Anything save confront that his beloved website MADem Jul 2015 #387
How does that refute what I wrote? Octafish Jul 2015 #114
Oh, I see. Now they don't count because they didn't "make a dent" uhnope Jul 2015 #125
No. Because they didn't mention Petraeus got off easy compared to CIA and Pentagon whistleblowers. Octafish Jul 2015 #134
oh, so they don't editorialize in their news articles & that makes them bad uhnope Jul 2015 #141
I just showed you where you were wrong. Octafish Jul 2015 #155
fuck Ray McGovern the anti-Semite uhnope Jul 2015 #111
Promoting yet ANOTHER anti-Semite on DU? zappaman Jul 2015 #130
Not exactly what he said, uhnope, but when you're smearing someone, that's the point. Octafish Jul 2015 #146
go ahead, double-down on your support for an anti-Semite uhnope Jul 2015 #147
Do you guys have a name for this tactic? It isn't very politically liberal. nm rhett o rick Jul 2015 #210
Not very Democratic. Tactic reminds me of this... Octafish Jul 2015 #218
This message was self-deleted by its author Long Drive Jul 2015 #333
There it is.................. Enthusiast Jul 2015 #350
"facist state media RT"? JonLP24 Jul 2015 #319
Thanks to Octafish and Robert Parry 1norcal Jul 2015 #118
Consortium News ROCKS! John Poet Jul 2015 #136
Gary Webb Too 1norcal Jul 2015 #144
I have the bfee trilogy. really good stuff. Doctor_J Jul 2015 #506
Yes, Consortium New Absolutely doxyluv13 Jul 2015 #89
I see. MineralMan Jul 2015 #95
So everyone who questions Washington is a Putinista? Octafish Jul 2015 #99
When did I say anything of the sort, Octafish? MineralMan Jul 2015 #105
The Russian writing. Octafish Jul 2015 #109
How so? No more so than the association MineralMan Jul 2015 #113
This message was self-deleted by its author Long Drive Jul 2015 #336
Tie a chicken on the misbehaving dogs neck .... PufPuf23 Jul 2015 #121
Not sure if serious... Blue_Tires Jul 2015 #178
Prove it. grasswire Jul 2015 #221
That's the thing... MattSh Jul 2015 #232
''The Media of the 1%'' Octafish Jul 2015 #244
So what would you recommend? MattSh Jul 2015 #231
Let's see, ConsortiumNews and CounterPunch could disappear tomorrow and I would toast the fact Godhumor Jul 2015 #3
Same here leftynyc Jul 2015 #6
+ 1. "News" for the hopelessly gullible. nt sufrommich Jul 2015 #12
Sorry you feel that way. In particular, I don't like some of the things I've read on CounterPunch. Octafish Jul 2015 #23
Well, that's exactly what the OP is referring to reorg Jul 2015 #184
And this thread is exactly what I am referring to Godhumor Jul 2015 #188
Which news outlets do you support? nm rhett o rick Jul 2015 #207
Here they come. Octafish. grasswire Jul 2015 #223
Oh yes, they're so persecuted Godhumor Jul 2015 #239
Haters gotta hate, right? Octafish Jul 2015 #352
Well, enjoy the mainsteam media then. MattSh Jul 2015 #233
You left out naturalnews and enenews hobbit709 Jul 2015 #4
And god forbid we forget WSWS or FDL Godhumor Jul 2015 #5
Wow, you're toxic. Maedhros Jul 2015 #500
Shame. I enjoy you posts. Godhumor Jul 2015 #505
What's your problem with enenews? It's a great source for news on nuclear energy FourScore Jul 2015 #11
You believe in the Easter Bunny too? hobbit709 Jul 2015 #15
Why are you being rude? Can't you just answer the question? FourScore Jul 2015 #22
They have about as much real credibility as Donald Trump hobbit709 Jul 2015 #26
They don't write anything. They just link to other nuclear industry articles. FourScore Jul 2015 #28
So on one hand you're claiming the nuclear industry has credibility hobbit709 Jul 2015 #32
Ugh. Now you're mincing words. They link to articles ABOUT the nuclear industry. FourScore Jul 2015 #45
That wasn't what you said. hobbit709 Jul 2015 #69
they always try to confuse issues and words heaven05 Jul 2015 #74
Thank you. n/t FourScore Jul 2015 #234
That is not at all true FBaggins Jul 2015 #33
They post the paragraph or two of interest to them and link to the article. FourScore Jul 2015 #47
no heaven05 Jul 2015 #71
It's not a great source at all. MineralMan Jul 2015 #36
since when is advocacy bad? As for bias - FourScore Jul 2015 #53
Advocacy is good. Slanting information by selective MineralMan Jul 2015 #61
ENEnews is one sided RobertEarl Jul 2015 #150
Truth is complex. Only telling part of the truth is not telling the truth. MineralMan Jul 2015 #158
Including this truth: coal ash adds vastly more environmental radioactivity than nuclear waste ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2015 #228
Does that include Plutonium? Octafish Jul 2015 #283
Plutonium is used in power generation ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2015 #320
Sure about that? RobertEarl Jul 2015 #324
Because its less expensive to use uranium than to reprocess plutonium ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2015 #326
You have no sense of the reality of nukes RobertEarl Jul 2015 #362
Fukushima is a classic example of what I'm talking about ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2015 #370
There you go denying reality again RobertEarl Jul 2015 #374
Again, I'm giving you reality, and you're ignoring it ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2015 #392
Heh RobertEarl Jul 2015 #444
ENENEWS is doing better reporting on Fukushima than the for-profit media. Octafish Jul 2015 #30
I can't help it if you believe in antiscience. hobbit709 Jul 2015 #39
Exactly. n/t FourScore Jul 2015 #54
Wow, what a way to dumb down a famous and profound quote. zappaman Jul 2015 #7
Speaking of dumbed-down, I don't remember you ever posting about the NAZIs on DU. Octafish Jul 2015 #41
I don't compare analysis of a website that hosts anti-Semites zappaman Jul 2015 #49
Nice try. Show where you post at all on the subject on DU. Octafish Jul 2015 #83
I have no idea why you promote the writings of anti-Semites zappaman Jul 2015 #87
So you go ad hominem as you have nothing to back you up. Octafish Jul 2015 #153
Yes, Old friend. Everyone CAN see this thread. zappaman Jul 2015 #164
Show where I'm wrong on what I post and I'll apologize. Octafish Jul 2015 #171
You aren't helping your 'case' with posts like that, you know..... MADem Jul 2015 #97
What case? Those are the facts. Octafish Jul 2015 #359
Thanks for the info and links. nilesobek Jul 2015 #507
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #422
Hurry! Maybe you can get to 10 before MIRT nukes you yet again...nt SidDithers Jul 2015 #423
Welcome to DU. zappaman Jul 2015 #425
Come down off that cross, we can use the wood for something useful. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #8
Thank you for saying it so eloquently DonViejo Jul 2015 #10
Wow! You, a forum host, applaud me being compared to a fascist apologist? Octafish Jul 2015 #16
Forum hosts are also DUers. They are free to express their opinions on MineralMan Jul 2015 #24
Yep, I applaud the statement.... DonViejo Jul 2015 #29
That makes me wonder why some posts are taken down and some allowed to stand. Octafish Jul 2015 #50
Hosts do not "take down" posts. They can only lock OPs that MineralMan Jul 2015 #66
Consensus of all 30? Or just those who happen to be around? Octafish Jul 2015 #81
All 30 hosts are never online at the same time. MineralMan Jul 2015 #88
Thank you! Octafish Jul 2015 #96
You have it exactly right, Octafish. FlatBaroque Jul 2015 #192
Speak English, Dammit! This is America! MineralMan Jul 2015 #51
+1 freshwest Jul 2015 #137
He can't... FBaggins Jul 2015 #17
That is so witty. Octafish Jul 2015 #453
Just pointing out your decade-long defense of Parry's psychotic break from reality FBaggins Jul 2015 #498
It's shameful. You nailed it. zappaman Jul 2015 #20
+lots (nt) jeff47 Jul 2015 #40
Nailed it...nt SidDithers Jul 2015 #52
I thought the thread was a spoof till I'd read a few posts. okasha Jul 2015 #193
Nailed it. This OP is incredible. nt msanthrope Jul 2015 #245
Incredible like the time the Tag Team got all worked up for me quoting a banned DUer? Octafish Jul 2015 #248
You mean where you cited a DUer banned for Holocaust denial to prove that another Holocaust denier msanthrope Jul 2015 #249
You mean the DUer banned for holocaust denial that was referred to as zappaman Jul 2015 #256
I'm fucking floored that the very simple message "Stop citing Holocaust deniers" msanthrope Jul 2015 #258
I wonder why? zappaman Jul 2015 #260
I never ascribe maliciousness to what can be explained by sheer stupidity...... msanthrope Jul 2015 #261
To what do you ascribe your condescension? Octafish Jul 2015 #264
it fucking floors me that you are upset about condescension.... msanthrope Jul 2015 #265
Where do I promote anti-Semitism? Octafish Jul 2015 #270
I didn't claim you promoted anti-Semitism.....I said you cited Holocaust deniers. msanthrope Jul 2015 #271
It's what you just wrote, msanthrope. Octafish Jul 2015 #273
Quote the post where I wrote that. nt msanthrope Jul 2015 #274
261. ''I never ascribe maliciousness to what can be explained by sheer stupidity......'' Octafish Jul 2015 #280
You must have quoted the wrong post. zappaman Jul 2015 #282
Octa, I'm referring to your citation of Holocaust deniers. msanthrope Jul 2015 #289
Or using a quote about the holocaust zappaman Jul 2015 #291
That's a smear by association, msanthrope. Octafish Jul 2015 #463
Then alert.....and any juror can Google your username, my username, and "shamir" msanthrope Jul 2015 #469
Just show where I did any of that. No need to repeat it. Octafish Jul 2015 #470
How difficult is it to tell the truth? reorg Jul 2015 #481
Thank you for proving that what was posted was in fact, correctly translated bullshit. nt msanthrope Jul 2015 #495
I realize you don't want to hear about Assange and Wikileaks reorg Jul 2015 #497
Are you actually defending Shamir's article? nt msanthrope Jul 2015 #508
Are you actually disputing what was reported? n/t reorg Aug 2015 #523
There you go again. zappaman Jul 2015 #276
Even with an OP that compares outing a site that hosts anti-Semites zappaman Jul 2015 #275
You got me there...... seriously I want to take the Op and the reccers msanthrope Jul 2015 #292
Or a form of dementia perhaps. uhnope Jul 2015 #281
Yeah. It's like being crazy about assholes, uhnope. Octafish Jul 2015 #286
Are you talking to the voices in your head? uhnope Jul 2015 #473
I thought that's what you meant. Octafish Jul 2015 #475
You are wrong, NuclearDem. Octafish Jul 2015 #382
Who's "coming for" Consortium News? Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #13
The Stonecutters. sufrommich Jul 2015 #19
Nobody is. Many, however, question MineralMan Jul 2015 #21
Is there something wrong with looking at all points of view? Mojorabbit Jul 2015 #152
You should do what you wish to do. MineralMan Jul 2015 #157
"Is there something wrong with looking at all points of view?" EX500rider Jul 2015 #494
More importantly, who is "coming for" DU? femmocrat Jul 2015 #35
Nobody's "coming for" any of them. MineralMan Jul 2015 #38
Thanks! femmocrat Jul 2015 #44
DUers. Octafish Jul 2015 #48
Excellent advice, Octafish. MineralMan Jul 2015 #78
Puerile. Octafish Jul 2015 #85
It's Purell. zappaman Jul 2015 #90
It's Tag Team. Octafish Jul 2015 #94
The call goes out and they come running. Emboldened by their friends. Not offering rhett o rick Jul 2015 #338
Jury results: beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #339
Thanks for posting. This is supposed to be a politically liberal message board rhett o rick Jul 2015 #340
There should be a tougher penalty for bullshit alerts. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #341
It's like arguing with creationists. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #343
Not really. Creationists go by one source, the Bible. Octafish Jul 2015 #360
That's the opinion of one DUer. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2015 #82
Harold Pinter: Truth, War and the Big Lie Octafish Jul 2015 #92
No, of course not. And as far as I know Counterpunch hasn't been "banned." The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2015 #106
I was on a jury last night BainsBane Jul 2015 #117
There should be a law against paraphrasing Niemöller. Brickbat Jul 2015 #18
First, they came for those who paraphrased Niemöller, and I did not speak out.... (nt) Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #43
That would be unconstitutional. Octafish Jul 2015 #59
It's like you think I meant that literally. Brickbat Jul 2015 #73
See Sid's #68 below... stevenleser Jul 2015 #76
yeah, wow. Maybe we should back off? Because they might really be clinical, literally (!) uhnope Jul 2015 #160
Wow... SidDithers Jul 2015 #25
Unbelievable, ain't it? zappaman Jul 2015 #27
I guess when you've invested so much time defending the likes of Paul Craig Roberts... SidDithers Jul 2015 #34
Wow! Caretha Jul 2015 #328
The amount of times he jumps the shark, well, we should nickname him Fonzie. nt stevenleser Jul 2015 #60
Yeah... SidDithers Jul 2015 #67
The neverending drama of DU: freshwest Jul 2015 #143
NAZIs believe in censorship. Why do you? Octafish Jul 2015 #65
... SidDithers Jul 2015 #68
It's almost like he did it right on cue. Few comedians have that kind of timing... stevenleser Jul 2015 #75
His timing is impeccable.... SidDithers Jul 2015 #84
First they came for Glenn Greenwald... Octafish Jul 2015 #77
Glenn Beck may be a more appropriate name to drop in this context... NuclearDem Jul 2015 #80
Nobody "came for" him, either. As far as I know he's still free The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2015 #107
Mr. Godwin? Is that you? The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2015 #72
Discussing the quality and bias of news sources on DU isn't censorship. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #79
It's not just Nazis but authoritarians of all strips zeemike Jul 2015 #128
Bold? Hardly... dogknob Jul 2015 #145
It's neither a poem nor was it ever written down, reorg Jul 2015 #183
Hah! Good ones... druidity33 Jul 2015 #205
I think someone needs to clean up his Wiki Capt. Obvious Jul 2015 #31
Niemoeller was a patriot. Octafish Jul 2015 #287
You forgot to mention globalresearch.ca (nt) TacoD Jul 2015 #37
Can find Peter Dale Scott's writing there... Octafish Jul 2015 #217
Seriously? The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2015 #42
Really. I hate NAZIs. So does ConsortiumNews. So did Rev. Niemöller. Octafish Jul 2015 #455
Yes, 6+ Million dead is exactly like people pointing out holes in your favored media's stories. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2015 #46
Exactly. zappaman Jul 2015 #55
How did you get that? ConsortiumNews is the antidote for NAZI ideology. Octafish Jul 2015 #358
You are claiming that people disliking your media choice is the holocaust. jeff47 Jul 2015 #488
No, you have no idea what you're blathering about reorg Jul 2015 #490
:facepalm: jeff47 Jul 2015 #491
the subject is censorship and YOU are trying to change it n/t reorg Jul 2015 #492
For posterity... SidDithers Jul 2015 #56
Right...like he would have the decency to delete this garbage of an OP. zappaman Jul 2015 #57
15 DUers have already rec'd this abominable pile of tripe. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #58
It is baffling Godhumor Jul 2015 #63
Honestly BainsBane Jul 2015 #123
There is something very Quijote-esque to his pronouncements stevenleser Jul 2015 #100
I'm loving this thread BainsBane Jul 2015 #120
Know your BFEE: Nazis couldn’t win WWII, so they backed Bushes. Octafish Jul 2015 #459
Here's an approved site! Teamster Jeff Jul 2015 #62
The Flock of Money Octafish Jul 2015 #64
Yeah, it's cited all the time BainsBane Jul 2015 #122
Lol. That's quite a stretch don't hurt yourself Teamster Jeff Jul 2015 #139
Are you saying you haven't seen that? BainsBane Jul 2015 #140
Idea from the approved site: Zorra Jul 2015 #480
First they came for the passive-aggressive, and I did not speak out. Starry Messenger Jul 2015 #70
Then they didn't. kwassa Jul 2015 #238
Good! Cause those peeps are annoying! nt LostOne4Ever Jul 2015 #330
I'd want to hear what you said, even if you disagreed with me. Octafish Jul 2015 #467
first they came for those who criticized consortium news fishwax Jul 2015 #91
And that's putting it lightly! zappaman Jul 2015 #93
Does CounterPunch's publishing right wing authors mean we can not trust their left wing writers? Agnosticsherbet Jul 2015 #101
CounterPunch has good and bad, some stuff I read, most I like I skim, and lots I skip. Octafish Jul 2015 #303
Kicked and recommended! Enthusiast Jul 2015 #104
You are most welcome, Enthusiast! For Gary Webb and Media Manipulation, from Beverly Bandler... Octafish Jul 2015 #346
+1, thank you for that. One has to wonder about the current heroin epidemic. Enthusiast Jul 2015 #349
And the meth epidemic. Octafish Jul 2015 #363
So much sounds so familiar, so often, that it has become deja vu all over again, again. Enthusiast Jul 2015 #399
First they came for Octafish... Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #108
And I laughed... Octafish Jul 2015 #142
I sometimes wonder if this is performance art Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #162
I have wondered that myself. zappaman Jul 2015 #165
I dunno. Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #167
No, I post because I want to preserve Democracy. Octafish Jul 2015 #166
I believe in science Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #168
So it should be easy to show where I post any of that. Octafish Jul 2015 #172
See here... Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #173
So, you can't show where I'm wrong. Octafish Jul 2015 #175
This thread is a prime example. Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #179
You know he is going to now use that against you in the future as you admitting to being a paid stevenleser Jul 2015 #181
Yeah, I've seen the barage against you for appearing on Fox News... Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #182
Show where I do that to '''win' arguments,'' stevenleser. Octafish Jul 2015 #189
When ad hominem is all you have, you don't have anything. Octafish Jul 2015 #185
Hey, you're just making me money here... Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #204
Speaking of which... zappaman Jul 2015 #214
No, but does that surprise you? Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #237
This thread is all kinds of awesome... SidDithers Jul 2015 #119
Very well could give the Dr. Oz thread a run for its money. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #129
It may end up becomming as legendary as Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #177
Bush's 'Perception Management' Plan Octafish Jul 2015 #390
Uh... Android3.14 Jul 2015 #131
How so? Can you be more ambiguous? TIA! Octafish Jul 2015 #456
Were you sincere in offering your apology? Android3.14 Jul 2015 #478
I'm puzzled -- Consortium News is still there... brooklynite Jul 2015 #132
Are you really puzzled or are you using that as a rhetorical device? Octafish Jul 2015 #457
Ah, now I remember where I've seen this before. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #135
Why post Glenn Beck NAZI crap on DU, NuclearDem? Octafish Jul 2015 #458
You didn't actually watch the video, did you? NuclearDem Jul 2015 #471
Why waste my time? Octafish Jul 2015 #476
You're buddies with Lewis Black? zappaman Jul 2015 #483
You monitor every post I write? Octafish Jul 2015 #485
Lol! zappaman Jul 2015 #486
It helps when you want to know what you're talking about. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #487
To be fair, it's easier to just make things up. zappaman Jul 2015 #493
That's classic! tammywammy Jul 2015 #474
This is some kind of guerrilla avant garde performance, right Godhumor Jul 2015 #149
You would think so. The kinds of issues one would need to have... Well... Lest... stevenleser Jul 2015 #240
This is a good exercise... CanSocDem Jul 2015 #151
Democracy is one idea worth defending, no matter what. Octafish Jul 2015 #278
Wow, is the stupid multiplying? Hydra Jul 2015 #154
It's all going according to GOP-NAZI plan exposed in 1988... Octafish Jul 2015 #203
Great thread, Octafish. polly7 Jul 2015 #169
Right wingers on his Secret Service detail said they wouldn't protect JFK. Octafish Jul 2015 #199
Wow. polly7 Jul 2015 #321
Only ~20 more recs to get this to the front page of DU! TacoD Jul 2015 #170
It's like a popularity contest at the Grand Jury. Octafish Jul 2015 #201
I'd hide my face with a hat too if I authored zappaman Jul 2015 #202
History is on your side, huh, zappaman? Octafish Jul 2015 #219
Dupe Octafish Jul 2015 #220
K&R of pissing off all the Right people! Rex Jul 2015 #174
They live happily in the times Frank Church warned us about. Octafish Jul 2015 #197
Did I miss something? What happened to ConsortiumNews? Blue_Tires Jul 2015 #176
Nazis.... Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #180
Some DUers seem to want ConsortiumNews censored as a news source. Octafish Jul 2015 #194
Well Parry's "useful idiot" schtik aside, Blue_Tires Jul 2015 #195
Anything to say about what Parry wrote, Blue Tires? Octafish Jul 2015 #198
I've easily refuted his Ukraine stuff in previous threads...Search away Blue_Tires Jul 2015 #222
Great, but Parry reported Team PNAC, not President Obama, who push for war in Ukraine. Octafish Jul 2015 #241
So you truly believe Nuland is a rogue Blue_Tires Jul 2015 #514
Truly, that is a great question. Octafish Jul 2015 #515
Calling Blue. Come in Blue. elias49 Aug 2015 #525
We got a possible Code 666 Violation. Octafish Aug 2015 #529
Care to revisit this now? Blue_Tires Mar 2018 #543
I must say this whole thread is fuckin' gold in 2018... Blue_Tires Mar 2018 #544
What? No RT? Might as well get them all in there. nt Adrahil Jul 2015 #186
RT airs interviews with former SEC regulator William K Black, whom the Bush-Obama DoJs ignored. Octafish Jul 2015 #191
Then there's this... Major Nikon Jul 2015 #251
That's not William K. Black, though. Ever hear of Russell Tice? Octafish Jul 2015 #272
I'm sure whatever you think is happening is JUST LIKE THE HOLOCAUST!!11 REP Jul 2015 #187
That must be why I posted: Who enabled NAZI Germany to round up the Jews? Think IBM. Octafish Jul 2015 #190
"Trashing ConsortiumNews is just like gassing millions of innocent folk!" struggle4progress Jul 2015 #196
No. ConsortiumNews sheds light on those responsible for the Holocaust. Octafish Jul 2015 #200
... tammywammy Jul 2015 #211
Kinda affirms what you always suspected... zappaman Jul 2015 #216
I might have missed something dreamnightwind Jul 2015 #213
You may be correct, as CN and CP post articles critical of politicians. Octafish Jul 2015 #408
Didn't know about the DU - Parry link dreamnightwind Jul 2015 #445
Henry Gonzalez: A Great American...was ready to fight E Howard Hunt, mano a mano. Octafish Jul 2015 #448
Yes, Gonzalez was truly heroic dreamnightwind Jul 2015 #449
Know Your BFEE: Poppy Bush Armed Saddam Octafish Jul 2015 #450
Thanks dreamnightwind Aug 2015 #516
April Glaspie affair exposes pro- anti-BFEE divisions within the Establishment. Octafish Aug 2015 #518
I think that is why the message coming from 3 channels said something to me dreamnightwind Aug 2015 #522
First they came for surprise... Dr. Strange Jul 2015 #225
You win! zappaman Jul 2015 #226
And so we all lose when such ridicule and name calling... dougolat Jul 2015 #236
K&R CrawlingChaos Jul 2015 #229
Why All This Matters: Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception Octafish Jul 2015 #269
I can't say this often enough Octafish CrawlingChaos Jul 2015 #325
I have been listing internet media that people should follow instead of the TV and JDPriestly Jul 2015 #235
I put that principle in action when I remember what Gen. George S. Patton said long ago... Octafish Jul 2015 #263
Another insightful quote to hold close these days. seafan Jul 2015 #242
Thank you, seafan! That is one of the great Democratic quotes of all time. Octafish Jul 2015 #253
I guess there's no hope we'll ever find out the truth about chemtrails and UFOs Major Nikon Jul 2015 #247
Because nothing says ''Democracy'' like Secret Government. Octafish Jul 2015 #250
Are you kidding? I love your UFO posts Major Nikon Jul 2015 #252
You think associating me with them somehow damages my reputation? I stand behind them. Octafish Jul 2015 #255
No, frequently promoting anti-Semitic writers and this OP... zappaman Jul 2015 #257
Are you speaking for Major Nikon, now? Octafish Jul 2015 #268
You are being Un-Democratic! Major Nikon Jul 2015 #299
Well apparently... zappaman Jul 2015 #302
No, I think they are hilarious Major Nikon Jul 2015 #294
Great. What entertains you, others may find informative. Octafish Jul 2015 #295
I don't think you understand Major Nikon Jul 2015 #296
Well, coming from you, that really means something. Octafish Jul 2015 #297
It means I think your UFO posts are hilarious Major Nikon Jul 2015 #300
A USAF guy I met mentioned he'd lose his pension if he answered my question about UFOs. Octafish Jul 2015 #304
I'm surprised they didn't use an EMP weapon on him just for saying that much Major Nikon Jul 2015 #306
!!! zappaman Jul 2015 #307
EMP? So primitive. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #332
Ah, the unnamed anonymous USAF guy. What command and unit was he in? What was his job? nt stevenleser Jul 2015 #348
Why would I tell you something told to me in confidence? Octafish Jul 2015 #361
Because those wouldn't identify him since he is retired, right? stevenleser Jul 2015 #366
Thanks for the UFO lesson. You make a logical fallacy, however. Octafish Jul 2015 #368
Nope, those are pretty much the only guys who would know stevenleser Jul 2015 #369
So they would break their secrecy oaths for SCI? Octafish Jul 2015 #372
Well that's your claim isn't it? That one of them told you something that broke their stevenleser Jul 2015 #398
I didn't claim anything. I explained why I said what I did. Octafish Jul 2015 #403
and boom goes the dynamite...nt SidDithers Jul 2015 #373
No, it was a cigar. And it blew up in your face, SidDithers of DU. Octafish Jul 2015 #379
That's gonna leave a mark. zappaman Jul 2015 #385
Yeah, dude. ''Trolling is a art.'' -- SidDithers of DU to zappaman Octafish Jul 2015 #400
You better believe it! zappaman Jul 2015 #401
If that's the best you got, wow. Octafish Jul 2015 #407
If that's the best you got... zappaman Jul 2015 #409
No, actually. Here's how Rupert Murdoch helped maneuver America into war on Iraq. Octafish Jul 2015 #414
I agree that tequila can be good for you. zappaman Jul 2015 #416
You've been reduced to babble. Octafish Jul 2015 #435
It has as much to do with the thread as the post I replied to except zappaman Jul 2015 #437
It's still online Cali_Democrat Jul 2015 #259
Guess my post worked. Octafish Jul 2015 #267
Was it ever offline? Cali_Democrat Jul 2015 #277
If some DUers had their way, it would. Octafish Jul 2015 #279
Not true. zappaman Jul 2015 #284
No offense, I don't take your word on anything, zappaman. Octafish Jul 2015 #288
No, it wouldn't. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #293
Right, just Tag Team DU into submission. Octafish Jul 2015 #298
Propagandists are never wrong, and the people that say they are are just teaming up to silence them. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #301
No kidding. That's why I encourage people to read ConsortiumNews and CounterPunch... Octafish Jul 2015 #305
I'm sorry, but what military's basic training includes lessons on what is and isn't censorship? NuclearDem Jul 2015 #309
They worked it in between folding your drawers in a 6" square and making hospital corners Major Nikon Jul 2015 #310
Oh, so *that's* what they were shouting during drill... NuclearDem Jul 2015 #314
Well, the source was you. Octafish Jul 2015 #365
No, but you are yet again. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #406
Are you a veteran, my friend? zappaman Jul 2015 #315
Is your name Sarah Connor? Octafish Jul 2015 #364
So , that's a no then. zappaman Jul 2015 #384
What a lovely bunch of people responding to this OP. elias49 Jul 2015 #262
It does show. Octafish Jul 2015 #266
relentless harassers and cyberstalkers carolinayellowdog Jul 2015 #335
You do have to be careful around the Anti-Tacos... NuclearDem Jul 2015 #345
It certainly appears that some have it in for Octafish. JEB Jul 2015 #285
All the usual characters who have always run interference on those who dare ask questions. nt ChisolmTrailDem Jul 2015 #290
yes, a veritable who's who grasswire Jul 2015 #308
What's their deal? Thinking people can read and decide for themselves. JEB Jul 2015 #327
not without the assistance of partisan thought police, they can't carolinayellowdog Jul 2015 #337
Yes. Don't ask questions because there is nothing to see here. Enthusiast Jul 2015 #402
KICK and effin REC!!! hifiguy Jul 2015 #311
NPR news chiefs deny they knew of Army interns Octafish Jul 2015 #391
White I would not necessarily agree with the analogy nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #316
And their goal seems to be that somethings are not told. ..nt dougolat Jul 2015 #317
Or sites are not linked to nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #318
DURec leftstreet Jul 2015 #323
Jean Seberg and the War on Terror Octafish Jul 2015 #447
HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jul 2015 #329
Most important thing I've learned on DU: George Herbert Walker Bush in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. Octafish Jul 2015 #405
WOW !!! - Bookmarked !!! WillyT Jul 2015 #411
Godwin Hyperbole much? nt LostOne4Ever Jul 2015 #331
No, not if you know history. Ask Hannah Arendt. Octafish Jul 2015 #347
I am proud to reveal Mira Jul 2015 #342
Thank you for sharing that wonderful connection, Mira. Octafish Jul 2015 #344
Thank you for your reply Mira Jul 2015 #354
There have been some great articles on counterpunch over the years Gothmog Jul 2015 #351
There really have. Octafish Jul 2015 #440
One might think this thread is edhopper Jul 2015 #353
One might. Octafish Jul 2015 #355
You see edhopper Jul 2015 #356
Speaking of Crack: Washington Post’s Slimy Assault on Gary Webb Octafish Jul 2015 #357
That's good edhopper Jul 2015 #371
So what? Where did the media fall-in when the story broke in 1996? Octafish Jul 2015 #375
Tell me more about the group that took down edhopper Jul 2015 #377
I've spent enough time helping you, edhopper. Octafish Jul 2015 #378
Oh! edhopper Jul 2015 #394
No the demands are the reason I answered that way. Octafish Jul 2015 #396
Watt? edhopper Jul 2015 #397
You are toxic as well. Maedhros Jul 2015 #502
My first ignore! edhopper Jul 2015 #510
You left out RT daredtowork Jul 2015 #367
Good point. It was also mentioned upthread. Here's why even Putinasta-filled RT matters... Octafish Jul 2015 #376
Colleen Rowley was one of Time's Persons of the Year in 2002... SidDithers Jul 2015 #380
Is your name daredtowork, too? Octafish Jul 2015 #386
But octafish of DU, I was merely pointing out... SidDithers Jul 2015 #393
Yeah, that must be why daredtowork didn't answer. Octafish Jul 2015 #395
I was afk and now I'm confused about claims Sid is me? Huh? daredtowork Jul 2015 #410
SidDithers responded to a question I posed you. Octafish Jul 2015 #412
I think people should read/watch whatever they want with a critical eye daredtowork Jul 2015 #413
Thank you! I don't want you to think what I think. I want you to think for yourself. Octafish Jul 2015 #430
Glad (and amazed) my age comes off as so ambiguous! nt daredtowork Jul 2015 #442
Alex Jones' favorite mouthpiece! Major Nikon Jul 2015 #389
K&R #112 Many are responsive to their perception managers, others are employees brother. n/t bobthedrummer Jul 2015 #381
DU owes a great deal of gratitude to you, bobthedrummer... Octafish Jul 2015 #383
...! KoKo Jul 2015 #388
...! zappaman Jul 2015 #404
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #415
We close our eyes, we never lose the game... SidDithers Jul 2015 #417
Ewww. zappaman Jul 2015 #426
C'mon... SidDithers Jul 2015 #427
Perhaps you should go west! zappaman Jul 2015 #424
Censorship is un-Democratic. Octafish Jul 2015 #428
Sorry, but your buddy left the building. zappaman Jul 2015 #429
Does that mean his or her rec disappears, too? Octafish Jul 2015 #431
Not sure if recs by trolls stay. zappaman Jul 2015 #432
Not important enough to take up their time. Octafish Jul 2015 #433
!!! zappaman Jul 2015 #434
UBS Octafish Jul 2015 #438
You mean IBS? zappaman Jul 2015 #439
No, UBS. You should know the Swiss bank received at least $100 billion from US taxpayers. Octafish Jul 2015 #441
Sorry your script hasn't sold. zappaman Jul 2015 #443
Kick, Octafish. Thank you again. polly7 Jul 2015 #436
Beware Cass Sunstein, who explained why DoJ must let Bush and Cheney off the hook, all legal-like. Octafish Jul 2015 #451
DU is already absurdly insular, conforming will just make it a mouthpiece. NuttyFluffers Jul 2015 #446
That's about the only reason worth putting up with the abuse of asshats and the emoticon army. Octafish Jul 2015 #452
Well they are entertaining to us that have been here the longest. Rex Jul 2015 #454
*You* have made the years fly by, Rex. Octafish Jul 2015 #460
They can try and omit history, but fail to remember humans are curious by nature. Rex Jul 2015 #468
^^^this^^^ eom Purveyor Jul 2015 #479
I like to pretend the popularity of a website is simple conspiracy too LanternWaste Jul 2015 #461
Wish I said something when the asshats and emoticon brigade went after Will Pitt. Octafish Jul 2015 #462
Thought police swarming Will Pitt as we speak. JEB Jul 2015 #464
Nothing says ''Democracy'' like SHUT UP! Octafish Jul 2015 #465
I dread to imagine JEB Jul 2015 #466
What is the common thread? Octafish Jul 2015 #477
#123 robertpaulsen Jul 2015 #472
Something never on TV: Nixon assigned a murderous Secret Service agent to protect Ted Kennedy. Octafish Jul 2015 #482
Shocking, yet fits perfectly with what we know of Nixon's paranoid tendencies. robertpaulsen Jul 2015 #509
You know.. not every opinion is equal. X_Digger Jul 2015 #484
Both sides, like the time the New York Times did what CIA wanted? Octafish Jul 2015 #489
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #496
Mass Media ignoring 'RFK Believed in Conspiracy' shows corrupt nature of America's Press Octafish Jul 2015 #499
Thank you for the kind words, Octafish. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #513
then they came for the twitters, but I did not tweet nt HFRN Jul 2015 #501
What if they come for your retirement? Whatchagonnado? Octafish Jul 2015 #503
Rec ced as usual. Thanks Octa. Mc Mike Jul 2015 #511
Wall Street and War Inc. are where the really Big Bucks go to get made. Octafish Aug 2015 #536
Thanks for the links. All the info is excellent. Mc Mike Aug 2015 #540
Wikileaks showed State Department wheeler dealing, too. Octafish Aug 2015 #541
Everything for sale. Including national security. Mc Mike Aug 2015 #542
It's been 10 days...have they come for anyone? brooklynite Aug 2015 #517
''...or are we just talking about criticism you happen to disagree with?'' Octafish Aug 2015 #519
Who wants to shut them down? brooklynite Aug 2015 #521
As far as I can tell, all of those sites are still up. NuclearDem Aug 2015 #520
Checking in... NuclearDem Aug 2015 #524
When it comes to the point, you really are there. Octafish Aug 2015 #528
I would have thought given the truly grave threat against CN and CP NuclearDem Aug 2015 #530
Where did I post ''Holocaust nonsense'' that ''was just tasteless hyperbole'' NuclearDem? Octafish Aug 2015 #537
Invoking Rev. Niemoller after someone said something not nice about CP or CN NuclearDem Aug 2015 #538
Seeing how I didn't write anything anti-Semitic, that makes your statement false, NuclearDem. Octafish Aug 2015 #539
Well, it's been a couple of weeks Blue_Tires Aug 2015 #526
The worst kind of flies are drawn to shit. Octafish Aug 2015 #527
By all means, keep posting Parry's stuff to your heart's content Blue_Tires Aug 2015 #534
No offense, but I don't recall you proving Parry wrong about anything. Octafish Aug 2015 #535
Which must pi** you off because elias49 Aug 2015 #531
"prone to censorship" NuclearDem Aug 2015 #532
I ignore and insult Parry because he's wrong on everything these days... Blue_Tires Aug 2015 #533

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
9. When Money is Speech...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:07 AM
Jul 2015

People without it have no voice. That's why discussion on DU is so important -- the Internet represents about the last domain in which lots of people can exchange ideas outside what "Mainstream Media" approve. When people start to shut it down -- on DU or anywhere -- there's a problem for Democracy.

Two more names for the list to remember, one where people can still learn new ideas and the other an archive of how much work can get done by simply telling other people things they won't learn in Corporate Owned News:

Who remembers when Bartcop won the BuzzFlash Wings of Justice Award?

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
102. Hilarious thread. Thank you for raising the alarm
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:43 AM
Jul 2015

that those who push RW and fake news sites are being Holocausted. LOL.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
115. He has managed to piss off the right people
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:21 PM
Jul 2015

And I do mean right.

Just look at their attempts to smear everything but the right.

Response to uhnope (Reply #102)

90-percent

(6,953 posts)
112. Bartcop was awesome
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:12 PM
Jul 2015

I emailed him a few times and he actually posted parts of my rants. read it every day. He was up there with DU and Keith Olbermann to help me cope emotionally with the 2000-2008 GW Bush DARK AGES. Also buzzflash and common dreams

I wonder if they still sell WORST PRESIDENT EVER tee shirts? Mines aging and it's a blast listening to the comments of people that notice it!

Thanks again, Octafish, one of the most stalwart and heroic of fellow DU members!

-90% Jimmy

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
133. What Skinner wrote about Bartcop...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:00 PM
Jul 2015
via lame54:

Back in the days when there was no "liberal blogosphere" or "netroots"; there were only "anti-Bush websites".
Before DU there was Buzzflash, Smirking Chimp, and BartCop.
That was pretty much the entire liberal presence on the internet.
Bart gave DU a prominent link on his homepage, and sent us lots of traffic.
I think it is arguable that he did more for DU than anyone else on the Internet.


Emphasis in original.

PS: Thank you for the kind words, -90% Jimmy! I think and feel the same way about you and DU!

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
215. I'm one of those who came here via BartCop
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:07 PM
Jul 2015

He used to post the 10 Most Conservative Idiots list.

K&R

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
124. "When Money is Speech..." and "Money Trumps Peace" (GWB).. there, I fixed that for you...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:35 PM
Jul 2015

.... NOT that you ever need "fixing", but as a reminder to others....

As always, a huge K&R! for an Octafish thread...

Peace,

Ghost

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
138. Thank you for the kind correction.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:18 PM
Jul 2015

Good writing is good editing. For instance:





How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations

By Glenn Greenwald
The Intercept, 24 Feb 2014

One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.

Over the last several weeks, I worked with NBC News to publish a series of articles about “dirty trick” tactics used by GCHQ’s previously secret unit, JTRIG (Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group). These were based on four classified GCHQ documents presented to the NSA and the other three partners in the English-speaking “Five Eyes” alliance. Today, we at the Intercept are publishing another new JTRIG document, in full, entitled “The Art of Deception: Training for Online Covert Operations.”

SNIP...

Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums. Here is one illustrative list of tactics from the latest GCHQ document we’re publishing today:



SNIP...

No matter your views on Anonymous, “hacktivists” or garden-variety criminals, it is not difficult to see how dangerous it is to have secret government agencies being able to target any individuals they want – who have never been charged with, let alone convicted of, any crimes – with these sorts of online, deception-based tactics of reputation destruction and disruption. There is a strong argument to make, as Jay Leiderman demonstrated in the Guardian in the context of the Paypal 14 hacktivist persecution, that the “denial of service” tactics used by hacktivists result in (at most) trivial damage (far less than the cyber-warfare tactics favored by the US and UK) and are far more akin to the type of political protest protected by the First Amendment.

CONTINUED w/links, sources, details...

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/



Most importantly: Thank you for standing up for the good fight, Ghost in the Machine.

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
148. "Thank you for standing up for the good fight, Ghost in the Machine." Thank YOU, Octafish....
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:02 PM
Jul 2015

when I first found DU, I lurked for several years, just reading on some topics that interested me. When I finally signed up, it was to reply to one of your posts, if I'm not mistaken. I wound up with a dead computer, and all of my log-in info for EVERYTHING was stored on it. At the time, I was having short term memory issues due to an accident and subsequent major neck surgeries.

I couldn't remember the user name for here, or which email address I had used. I had over 100 domain names, each with an email account.... and close to 1,000 different Yahoo email addresses.

I have been a fan of your "Know Your BFEE" series from the beginning. You are in my own personal "Top Ten **MUST** Read" list of posters, which inludes kpete, H20 Man, blm, marym625 (I *think* that's the right one), LandShark and a handful of others. I don't want ANYONE to feel slighted, as I think what everyone has to contribute is important in its own way.

You keep up the good fight, my friend. I will continue to K&R!

Peace,

Ghost

Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #148)

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
504. Excellent post.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jul 2015

My experience is that it is a fairly small contingent. I figure they are mostly either astroturfers or old men (or woman) with nothing better to do then stalk threads and enforce a type of group think.

But don't leave! There are still many progressives here that are reading but don't write in some topics because they don't want to be confronted by an asshole looking to tear them or their opinion down.

It looks to me like we had a really bad couple of years with social media and MSM manipulation peaking, but it seems that people are coming to realization that we are in a sophisticated propaganda state.

http://www.projectcensored.org

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
512. You're right about people waking up to the manipulation. I USED to think that
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 09:33 PM
Jul 2015

it was just that certain people just weren't informed, and actually wasted a lot of time trying to reason with them. But then you see patterns and repeated talking points, and the same groups, same talking points on different blogs and after a while, you begin to wonder about it.

And then you decide that facts beat all the talking points in the world.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
14. No, ConsortiumNews is an excellent resource. For example, Ray McGovern on matters of high treason...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:13 AM
Jul 2015

Something conspicuously absent from the Sunday morning tee vee:



Gen. Petraeus: Too Big to Jail

From the Archive: Retired Gen. David Petraeus confessed on Thursday to giving sensitive government secrets to his mistress and then lying about it to the FBI, but will get no jail time, only two years probation and a fine, showing that he is too big to jail, as ex -CIA analyst Ray McGovern predicted in March.

By Ray McGovern
ConsortiumNews, April 23, 2015 (Originally published on March 5, 2015)

The leniency shown former CIA Director (and retired General) David Petraeus by the Justice Department in sparing him prison time for the serious crimes that he has committed puts him in the same preferential, immune-from-incarceration category as those running the financial institutions of Wall Street, where, incidentally, Petraeus now makes millions. By contrast, “lesser” folks – and particularly the brave men and women who disclose government crimes – get to serve time, even decades, in jail.

Petraeus is now a partner at KKR, a firm specializing in large leveraged buyouts, and his hand-slap guilty plea to a misdemeanor for mishandling government secrets should not interfere with his continued service at the firm. KKR’s founders originally worked at Bear Stearns, the institution that failed in early 2008 at the beginning of the meltdown of the investment banking industry later that year.

Gen. David Petraeus in a photo with his biographer/mistress Paula Broadwell. (U.S. government photo)
Gen. David Petraeus in a photo with his biographer/mistress Paula Broadwell. (U.S. government photo)
Despite manifestly corrupt practices like those of subprime mortgage lenders, none of those responsible went to jail after the 2008-09 financial collapse which cost millions of Americans their jobs and homes. The bailed-out banks were judged “too big to fail” and the bankers “too big to jail.”

Two years ago, in a highly revealing slip of the tongue, Attorney General Eric Holder explained to Congress that it can “become difficult” to prosecute major financial institutions because they are so large that a criminal charge could pose a threat to the economy – or perhaps what he meant was an even bigger threat to the economy.

Holder tried to walk back his unintended slip into honesty a year later, claiming, “There is no such thing as ‘too big to jail.’” And this bromide was dutifully echoed by Holder’s successor, Loretta Lynch, at her confirmation hearing in late January.

Words, though, are cheap. The proof is in the pudding. It remains true that not one of the crooked bankers or investment advisers who inflicted untold misery on ordinary people, gambling away much of their life savings, has been jailed. Not one.

CONTINUED...

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/04/23/gen-petraeus-too-big-to-jail-2/



That's just one example. You can use it, or any other article published on ConsortiumNews, to rebut what I wrote or support your contention that it is a "poor use" of the Niemoeller analogy. I'm interested in reading what you have to say on it, MineralMan. For me, ConsortiumNews is especially valuable because no matter what party occupies the Oval Office, it prints the truth as it sees it.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
86. That's just horse patooty. That story was WIDELY carried in the "regular" news media.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jul 2015

It was the tale of the week, in fact.

The right wing DAILY MAIL hashed it out: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3051926/Ex-CIA-chief-sentenced-leaking-military-secrets.html

Former CIA Director David Petraeus escapes jail for leaking military secrets to his mistress
The former U.S. Army General appeared in court in Charlotte, North Carolina on Thursday for his sentencing hearing
He admitted to giving his biographer mistress classified material he had improperly kept from the military - which carried up to a year in prison
But he was instead sentenced to two years probation and a $100,000 fine
Speaking after, Petraeus apologized for his 'mistakes' but thanked his supporters and said he was looking forward to moving on with his life
He had an affair with Paula Broadwell between late 2011 and summer 2012, and stepped down from the CIA after the relationship emerged



Democracy Now! Gave it a plug: http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/17/a_double_standard_on_leaks_as

A Double Standard on Leaks? As Whistleblowers Jailed, Petraeus Escapes Prison & Advises White House


Could two cites be more diverse?

Consortium News plays fast and loose with facts and sourcing, which is why their credibility gets the stink-eye. And the "conflation" in the article you cited --which is a hallmark of that site --is just beyond absurd.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
98. How about The New York Times? Wall Street Journal? ABC? CNN? CBS? NBC?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:32 AM
Jul 2015

No offense, but The Daily Mail of London and Democracy Now aren't read or heard by very many DUers, let alone "average American citizens." Certainly not enough to make a dent in the public consciousness that Petraeus was left off lightly compared to Pentagon and CIA whistleblowers who expose government corruption.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
116. What diatribe of BS, uhnope?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:22 PM
Jul 2015

Show anywhere that I've posted something that is not true on DU. I will be happy to admit my mistake and correct the record.

Please show where I've intentionally lied or presented information that was not true on DU. Go through my Journal on DU3 or DU2.

Make it easy on you, show anywhere on this thread.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
127. um, this whole thread. And the post we are talking about, were BS posts
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jul 2015

BS as defined as way off and ludicrous in its assertion.


Octafish

(55,745 posts)
156. So, you can't show where I'm wrong.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:39 PM
Jul 2015

Otherwise, you wouldn't have to go ad hominem.

Now I get you.

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
126. Hardly...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jul 2015

As Tim Minchin so aptly put it, the OP:

Keeps firing off clichés with startling precision
Like a sniper using bollocks for ammunition




Sid

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
159. Like clockwork: ad hominem and SidDithers of DU.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:46 PM
Jul 2015

You accuse me of supporting anti-Semitism, yet you don't show how. From three years back:

Know your BFEE: Siegelman Judge is a big-time War Profiteer

That accusation was a smear then and it's a smear now. Propagandists use the smear for character assassination.

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
161. You promote writers like Israel Shamir and Christopher Bollyn at DU...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:51 PM
Jul 2015

Those writers are anti-Semites.

QED.

Sid

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
163. Where did I promote them?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:06 PM
Jul 2015

I quoted from an article Bollyn wrote called:

War Is Sell - Washington Elite Benefits from War

There is no anti-Semitism in the excerpt or the article.

Oh. And that was from 2005.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
206. And some would alert, hide, lock and censor everyone that doesn't march to the "correct"
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:05 PM
Jul 2015

lockstep ideology. I think you called it "house-keeping" once.

Fracking is ok, the TPP is ok, drilling in the Arctic is ok, invading Iraq is ok. Sorry, I don't march to that tune.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
243. Before Chomsky, Wittgenstein recognized the strategy.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:00 AM
Jul 2015

“The limits of my language means the limits of my world.”

treestar

(82,383 posts)
246. There must be a shortage of straw in your area
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:54 AM
Jul 2015

That's 4 straw men and the last one is especially huge.

What does it have to do with anti-semitism of those writers? You're the one dodging.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
227. Results:
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:04 AM
Jul 2015

On Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:32 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hardly...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7006521

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Unecessary, uncalled for name calling, playground tripe, that contributed nothing to the discussion.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:45 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not contributing to the discussion is not a hide worthy offense. Hide denied.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Dumb alert
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sadly, there are more than a few highly annoying, high post count characters here at DU, so too a degree I can sympathize with the alerter's frustration, however, if every petty, non substantive post that contributes nothing to the discussion were alerted on and subsequently hidden by a jury, half the posts in most threads would be hidden.

Sorry but these are insufficient grounds for alerting.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This DUer is always controversial but this time am voting for hide as it is inappropriate.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Response to SidDithers (Reply #254)

Response to SidDithers (Reply #254)

MADem

(135,425 posts)
387. I doubt it--it will be pivot-turn-change subject. Anything save confront that his beloved website
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:43 PM
Jul 2015

is, using the politest word I can muster to describe it, shite!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
114. How does that refute what I wrote?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:19 PM
Jul 2015

Did I say those media didn't cover the story? No, I wrote they didn't make a dent.

Moreover, from what I can this side of the paywall, none of those mention the Pentagon or CIA whistleblowers, which is the point Ray McGovern made in ConsortiumNews.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
125. Oh, I see. Now they don't count because they didn't "make a dent"
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:36 PM
Jul 2015

like this I guess

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
134. No. Because they didn't mention Petraeus got off easy compared to CIA and Pentagon whistleblowers.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jul 2015

Which was the point.



Get it?

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
141. oh, so they don't editorialize in their news articles & that makes them bad
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:28 PM
Jul 2015

Is that a photo of a ContortionistNews foreign affairs expert?

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
111. fuck Ray McGovern the anti-Semite
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:11 PM
Jul 2015

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Perfect that in defending ConsortiumNews and CP, you end up pushing yet another anti-Semite.

http://richliebermanreport.blogspot.com/2011/02/kgos-thurston-friday-show-goes-anti.html

He started berating the "Zionist state" and began to talk about "those individuals that possess 'dual citizenship' and whether they should worry about the future affairs in the region. After Thurston questioned McGovern's on-air diatribe and specific words, the ex-govt. operative didn't back down.

"They run the media and control our politicians in Washington." "They?" Who's they? Thurston, on air, could be heard gasping. The inferences were clear. Suddenly, the topic was no longer Egypt, but some govt. agent going on a direct anti-Semitic rant to the core that lit up the switchboard and brought out angry callers.


Here he is in full crazy beard on the fascist state media channel RT saying the same thing a bit less directly--Israel "controls" Obama and "pro-Israelis" control the media

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
146. Not exactly what he said, uhnope, but when you're smearing someone, that's the point.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:44 PM
Jul 2015
McGovern said Iraq war was about OIL: Oil, Israel and Logistics.

Here's more on McGovern discussing Petraeus at CIA and how it would lead to a more pro-war agenda at CIA:



Gee. Who was it now that went around Obama's back to escalate things in Afghanistan?



Neocons Guided Petraeus on Afghan War

From the Archive: Before Gen. David Petraeus was caught giving secrets to his biographer-mistress, he was giving special favors and access to influential neocons, one reason why Official Washington was so happy that he received only a hand-slap for his crime, ties that Robert Parry examined in 2012.

By Robert Parry
ConsortiumNews, March 9, 2015 (Originally published on Dec. 19, 2012)

Even after the Iraq War disaster and Barack Obama’s election in 2008, neoconservatives retained their influence over U.S. war policies in Afghanistan through their close ties to George W. Bush’s national security holdovers, such as Gen. David Petraeus who partnered with neocon war hawks in escalating the Afghan War.

How tight Petraeus’s relationship was with two neocons in particular, Frederick and Kimberly Kagan, was explored in a Washington Post article by war correspondent Rajiv Chandrasekaran who described how Petraeus installed the husband-and-wife team in U.S. offices in Kabul, granted them top-secret clearances and let them berate military officers about war strategy.

SNIP...

“For instance, early in 2009, Petraeus personally arranged for Max Boot [a neocon on the Council on Foreign Relations], Frederick Kagan and Kimberly Kagan to get extraordinary access during a trip to Afghanistan. … Their access paid dividends for Petraeus when they penned a glowing report in the Weekly Standard about the prospects for success in Afghanistan – if only President Obama sent more troops and committed the United States to stay in the war for the long haul. …

CONTINUED...

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/09/neocons-guided-petraeus-on-afghan-war-2/



For some on DU, that's the kind of news to censor.
 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
147. go ahead, double-down on your support for an anti-Semite
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:50 PM
Jul 2015

it goes perfect with this thread of yours

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
218. Not very Democratic. Tactic reminds me of this...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:59 PM
Jul 2015

From Consortium News...

Bush's Conspiracy to Riot



Miami 'Riot' Squad: Where Are They Now?

Those sulfurous turds and assholes acting in concert magnified their effect and helped sway an election.

Response to rhett o rick (Reply #210)

JonLP24

(29,808 posts)
319. "facist state media RT"?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 04:17 PM
Jul 2015

You really don't have a clue how biased and corrupt our media is. It is a shame Sibel Edmonds and others are relegated to RT.

1norcal

(55 posts)
118. Thanks to Octafish and Robert Parry
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jul 2015

Thanks Octafish my only hope for real news is the clarity you and Robert Parry provide. And I agree about Ray McGovern. Thanks again for your work through the years...

 

John Poet

(2,510 posts)
136. Consortium News ROCKS!
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jul 2015

Check the archives!
All kinds of investigative reporting, going all the way back to the crimes of the Reagan administration... but they sure gave George W. a lot of hell, deservedly so.

The site is run by the reporter who first broke the Iran-Contra scandal.

https://consortiumnews.com/archives/

1norcal

(55 posts)
144. Gary Webb Too
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:39 PM
Jul 2015

Thanks John Poet, and don't forget that Robert Parry and Gary Webb reported on Iran Contra, as well.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
506. I have the bfee trilogy. really good stuff.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:13 PM
Jul 2015

Unfortunately parry dared to say that His Holiness Barack is a part of the system. Which is true of course, but not welcome news at du

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
99. So everyone who questions Washington is a Putinista?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:35 AM
Jul 2015

How is that different from "You are either with us or against us" uttered by George W Bush?

And the next thing we knew we were in Iraq. Getting into a war with Russia over trumped up PNAC crapola would make that disaster look like a week at Disneyland.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
105. When did I say anything of the sort, Octafish?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:49 AM
Jul 2015

Apologists for Russian military actions in Ukraine, however, may well be "Putinistas." I'm pretty cautious about name calling, and I don't believe I've ever used the word "Putinista." I do recognize, however, when a so-called news outlet is echoing the stories promulgated by the Russian propaganda machine. I can't take such news outlets seriously, frankly, and so I don't use them at all.

If I want to read Russian propaganda, I know where to find it, and I can read it in Russian, if I choose to. I no longer speak Russian well, for lack of practice, but I can still read it just fine, thanks to the USAF and Syracuse University. Heck, I even have a pop-up Cyrillic keyboard available to me, for the rare occasions when I need to type in Russian:

До свидания, товарищ.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
113. How so? No more so than the association
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jul 2015

between Consortium News and Putin's propaganda. That's the association I'm referring to. And that's a real association.

I won't even discuss Counterpunch. It's a terrible source for anything, due to its associations and many of its writers. I wont even visit that site. Too ugly for words.

C'est pour rire, vraiment.

Response to MineralMan (Reply #113)

PufPuf23

(9,677 posts)
121. Tie a chicken on the misbehaving dogs neck ....
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jul 2015

One can distrust and not approve our leadership in the Ukraine without being a supporter of Putin and Russian actions.

Nuland?? What is this neo-conservative and wife of PNAC co-founder Kagan doing in the State Department of a Democratic Administration? This does not make this liberal and life-long Democrat feel warm and fuzzy about either Hillary Clinton nor Barrack Obama. They could have made a much better choice.

Why don't you address this MineralMan?

One can read varied sources and use one's discretion as to what contibutors to value and those to look at with jaundiced eye.

If one relies only on MSM, one gets narratives that support the status quo.

One lesson that the Iraq War and War on Terror should have taught Americans and most certainly DU is that we are lied to and manipulated by MSM and that this is not new.

There is gray area in sourcing "facts" because of confusion sowed by our own institutions.

For all their imperfection Counterpunch, Alternet, ConsortiumNews, and others are not in the same category as David Icke, Alex Jones, and other nutbags. I respect Abby Martin who was on RT for example but don't agree with everything she reports. I respect some of the writers on Counterpunch and the institution that is CounterPunch but don't agree with everything presented. Reading the opposition is part of a well-rounded thought process in educating oneself and forming an opinion.

Octafish is a DU treasure in proving content and context.


 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
178. Not sure if serious...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:53 PM
Jul 2015

Parry's "coverage" is whatever the Kremlin tells him to write

MattSh

(3,714 posts)
232. That's the thing...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:13 AM
Jul 2015

They don't have proof. The media of the 1% told them what to hate and so they hate it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
244. ''The Media of the 1%''
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:07 AM
Jul 2015

Thank you for an outstanding handle on who gets served in the U.S. information environment. For those actually interested in the subject of the warmongering right wing tax avoiding media ownership and its impact on Democracy: Corporate McPravda owns the airwaves.



And Corporate Tee Vee is still where most Americans get most of their information, including their ideas about these two statues. Wonder what people would think were they to learn from the tee vee what pater and fils have really done with their power?



The Propaganda System That Has Helped Create a Permanent Overclass Is Over a Century in the Making

Pulling back the curtain on how intent the wealthiest Americans have been on establishing a propaganda tool to subvert democracy.

Wednesday, 17 April 2013 00:00
By Andrew Gavin Marshall, AlterNet | News Analysis

Where there is the possibility of democracy, there is the inevitability of elite insecurity. All through its history, democracy has been under a sustained attack by elite interests, political, economic, and cultural. There is a simple reason for this: democracy – as in true democracy – places power with people. In such circumstances, the few who hold power become threatened. With technological changes in modern history, with literacy and education, mass communication, organization and activism, elites have had to react to the changing nature of society – locally and globally.

From the late 19th century on, the “threats” to elite interests from the possibility of true democracy mobilized institutions, ideologies, and individuals in support of power. What began was a massive social engineering project with one objective: control. Through educational institutions, the social sciences, philanthropic foundations, public relations and advertising agencies, corporations, banks, and states, powerful interests sought to reform and protect their power from the potential of popular democracy.

SNIP...

The development of psychology, psychoanalysis, and other disciplines increasingly portrayed the “public” and the population as irrational beings incapable of making their own decisions. The premise was simple: if the population was driven by dangerous, irrational emotions, they needed to be kept out of power and ruled over by those who were driven by reason and rationality, naturally, those who were already in power.

The Princeton Radio Project, which began in the 1930s with Rockefeller Foundation funding, brought together many psychologists, social scientists, and “experts” armed with an interest in social control, mass communication, and propaganda. The Princeton Radio Project had a profound influence upon the development of a modern "democratic propaganda" in the United States and elsewhere in the industrialized world. It helped in establishing and nurturing the ideas, institutions, and individuals who would come to shape America’s “democratic propaganda” throughout the Cold War, a program fostered between the private corporations which own the media, advertising, marketing, and public relations industries, and the state itself.

CONTINUED...

http://truth-out.org/news/item/15784-the-propaganda-system-that-has-helped-create-a-permanent-overclass-is-over-a-century-in-the-making



Thankfully, to help spread light when the protectors of the First Amendment won't, Maria Galardin's TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness) Radio. The podcast helps explain how we got here and what we need to do to move forward, starting with putting the "Public" into Airwaves again:



Alex Carey: Corporations and Propaganda
The Attack on Democracy


The 20th century, said Carey, is marked by three historic developments: the growth of democracy via the expansion of the franchise, the growth of corporations, and the growth of propaganda to protect corporations from democracy. Carey wrote that the people of the US have been subjected to an unparalleled, expensive, 3/4 century long propaganda effort designed to expand corporate rights by undermining democracy and destroying the unions. And, in his manuscript, unpublished during his life time, he described that history, going back to World War I and ending with the Reagan era. Carey covers the little known role of the US Chamber of Commerce in the McCarthy witch hunts of post WWII and shows how the continued campaign against "Big Government" plays an important role in bringing Reagan to power.

John Pilger called Carey "a second Orwell", Noam Chomsky dedicated his book, Manufacturing Consent, to him. And even though TUC Radio runs our documentary based on Carey's manuscript at least every two years and draws a huge response each time, Alex Carey is still unknown.

Given today's spotlight on corporations that may change. It is not only the Occupy movement that inspired me to present this program again at this time. By an amazing historic coincidence Bill Moyers and Charlie Cray of Greenpeace have just added the missing chapter to Carey's analysis. Carey's manuscript ends in 1988 when he committed suicide. Moyers and Cray begin with 1971 and bring the corporate propaganda project up to date.

This is a fairly complex production with many voices, historic sound clips, and source material. The program has been used by writers and students of history and propaganda. Alex Carey: Taking the Risk out of Democracy, Corporate Propaganda VS Freedom and Liberty with a foreword by Noam Chomsky was published by the University of Illinois Press in 1995.

SOURCE: http://tucradio.org/new.html



If one finds a moment, here's the first part (scroll down at the link for the second part) on Carey.

http://tucradio.org/AlexCarey_ONE.mp3

If you want Democracy and the Republic to flourish, it is vital for there to be more than a handful of companies providing "news." Democracy depends on it.

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
3. Let's see, ConsortiumNews and CounterPunch could disappear tomorrow and I would toast the fact
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:51 AM
Jul 2015

That the world just got a little less dumb.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
23. Sorry you feel that way. In particular, I don't like some of the things I've read on CounterPunch.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:24 AM
Jul 2015

For some reason, Jeff St. Clair and the late Alexander Cockburn don't believe a conspiracy was behind the death of President Kennedy. CounterPunch also continues to promulgate the idea that JFK was behind the joint CIA-Mafia assassination program against Fidel Castro and friends in Cuba. For example:


Almost nobody who mattered wanted an honest investigation for obvious reasons. A true investigation would have revealed that JFK was trysting with mafia moll Judy Exner. Not to mention Bobby’s perceived duplicity in prosecuting mafia chiefs, while sanctioning the CIA to whack Castro using mobsters like Johnny Rosseli. A real investigation would have revealed a rat’s nests of duplicity and murder from top to bottom.
SOURCE: http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11/20/notes-of-a-fallen-catholic-and-fallen-jfk-conspiracy-buff/


I wrote about it on DU, a long time ago. Don't seem to remember you piping up on any of that, until now.

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
239. Oh yes, they're so persecuted
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:11 AM
Jul 2015

Because, god forbid, there are some of us who prefer not having to debunk every single "Aren't you outraged???!!!" article from those, and a few others, sources.

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
5. And god forbid we forget WSWS or FDL
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:59 AM
Jul 2015

Regular bastions of factual and supported analysis they are.

....

Can't even type this with a straight face.

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
505. Shame. I enjoy you posts.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:09 PM
Jul 2015

But not going to apologize for disparaging those horrendous sites.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
11. What's your problem with enenews? It's a great source for news on nuclear energy
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:08 AM
Jul 2015

and nuclear "mishaps".

And a great source for news about Fukushima.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
22. Why are you being rude? Can't you just answer the question?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:23 AM
Jul 2015

They merely link to articles about all things nuclear. What's wrong with that?

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
28. They don't write anything. They just link to other nuclear industry articles.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:27 AM
Jul 2015

So how does that hurt their credibility?

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
32. So on one hand you're claiming the nuclear industry has credibility
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jul 2015

And at the same time the industry lies.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
45. Ugh. Now you're mincing words. They link to articles ABOUT the nuclear industry.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jul 2015

Particularly about nuclear accidents and Fukushima.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
74. they always try to confuse issues and words
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jul 2015

I spent time on the Fukushima incident when it first happened and the snark distraction and diminishing was amazing. Fukushima and the industry is everything it's been "leaked" to be. Pun intended. Please try to ignore the ones where your valuable insight is derided. They make a hobby out of rudeness.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
47. They post the paragraph or two of interest to them and link to the article.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:39 AM
Jul 2015

What else do they do?

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
71. no
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:04 AM
Jul 2015

snark is the response when they have no ammunition. Ignore rudeness here and especially .... it really is all a lot of them have as the only weapons in their 'closed closets' called minds.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
36. It's not a great source at all.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jul 2015

It is an advocacy website that selectively posts aggregated information that support its advocacy. Advocacy websites are almost never great sources about anything. They present on only one side of things, the side that supports their particular bias.

Anything found on enenews should be carefully compared with information from other sources. It should not be relied on for accuracy on topics having to do with nuclear energy issues. Its bias is obvious to anyone who investigates multiple sources.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
53. since when is advocacy bad? As for bias -
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:43 AM
Jul 2015

We are currently posting on a democrat site that does not promote anything republican. It's even in the rules.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
61. Advocacy is good. Slanting information by selective
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:49 AM
Jul 2015

use of sources and excerpting, however, is not good. I'm talking about the common practice used by advocacy websites, not about advocacy in general.

enenews is heavily slanted, and thus unreliable. Relying on it for accurate, complete information is a mistake.

Nuclear power generation is not safe, and cannot be made to be safe. That said, accuracy makes its point better than distortion. enenews.com should be renamed to distortednews.com

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
150. ENEnews is one sided
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:22 PM
Jul 2015

Because there is only one good side to nuclear power, and that is :

SHUT THEM ALL DOWN AND CLEAN UP THE MESS.

It is really weird how some here are so one sided about EneNews.com.

They present slanted, biased opinions about what EneNews.com presents, I guess because EneNews.com makes them uncomfortable with the truth about nuclear power pollution?

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
158. Truth is complex. Only telling part of the truth is not telling the truth.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:43 PM
Jul 2015

And that, my DU friend, is the truth.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
228. Including this truth: coal ash adds vastly more environmental radioactivity than nuclear waste
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:20 AM
Jul 2015
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/
the waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts. In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy.

At issue is coal's content of uranium and thorium, both radioactive elements. They occur in such trace amounts in natural, or "whole," coal that they aren't a problem. But when coal is burned into fly ash, uranium and thorium are concentrated at up to 10 times their original levels.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
283. Does that include Plutonium?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:09 PM
Jul 2015

Just in case, a PSA:



DOE-STD-1128-98

Guide of Good Practices for Occupational Radiological Protection in Plutonium Facilities


EXCERPT...

4.2.3 Characteristics of Plutonium Contamination

There are few characteristics of plutonium contamination that are unique. Plutonium
contamination may be in many physical and chemical forms. (See Section 2.0 for the many
potential sources of plutonium contamination from combustion products of a plutonium fire
to radiolytic products from long-term storage.) [font color="blue"]The one characteristic that many believe is
unique to plutonium is its ability to migrate with no apparent motive force. Whether from
alpha recoil or some other mechanism, plutonium contamination, if not contained or
removed, will spread relatively rapidly throughout an area.
[/font color]

SOURCE (PDF file format): http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/07/f2/doe-std-1128-98_cn2.pdf

Some scientists recently reported plutonium is interesting, magnets-wise.



Neutrons Find 'Missing' Magnetism Of Plutonium

By News Staff Science20.com | July 19th 2015 02:52 PM

New research has confirmed plutonium's magnetism, which scientists have long theorized but have never been able to experimentally observe.

Plutonium was first produced in 1940 and its unstable nucleus allows it to undergo fission, making it useful for nuclear fuels as well as for nuclear weapons. Much less known, however, is that the electronic cloud surrounding the plutonium nucleus is equally unstable and makes plutonium the most electronically complex element in the periodic table, with intriguingly intricate properties for a simple elemental metal.

While conventional theories have successfully explained plutonium's complex structural properties, they also predict that plutonium should order magnetically. This is in stark contrast with experiments, which had found no evidence for magnetic order in plutonium.

Finally, after seven decades, this scientific mystery on plutonium's "missing" magnetism has been resolved. Using neutron scattering, researchers from the Department of Energy's Los Alamos and Oak Ridge (ORNL) national laboratories have made the first direct measurements of a unique characteristic of plutonium's fluctuating magnetism. In a recent paper in the journal Science Advances, Marc Janoschek from Los Alamos, the paper's lead scientist, explains that plutonium is not devoid of magnetism, but in fact its magnetism is just in a constant state of flux, making it nearly impossible to detect.

"Plutonium sort of exists between two extremes in its electronic configuration--in what we call a quantum mechanical superposition," Janoschek said. "Think of the one extreme where the electrons are completely localized around the plutonium ion, which leads to a magnetic moment. But then the electrons go to the other extreme where they become delocalized and are no longer associated with the same ion anymore."

Using neutron measurements made on the ARCS instrument at ORNL's Spallation Neutron Source, a DOE Office of Science User Facility, Janoschek and his team determined that the fluctuations have different numbers of electrons in plutonium's outer valence shell--an observation that also explains abnormal changes in plutonium's volume in its different phases.

CONTINUED...

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/neutrons_find_missing_magnetism_of_plutonium-156505



I didn't learn any of that from television, that's for sure. I learned about it online, like reading "coal ash adds vastly more environmental radioactivity than nuclear waste." I think that's bullshit, which the story you linked to alluded:

*Editor's Note (posted 12/30/08): In response to some concerns raised by readers, a change has been made to this story. The sentence marked with an asterisk was changed from "In fact, fly ash—a by-product from burning coal for power—and other coal waste contains up to 100 times more radiation than nuclear waste" to "In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy." Our source for this statistic is Dana Christensen, an associate lab director for energy and engineering at Oak Ridge National Laboratory as well as 1978 paper in Science authored by J.P. McBride and colleagues, also of ORNL.

As a general clarification, ounce for ounce, coal ash released from a power plant delivers more radiation than nuclear waste shielded via water or dry cask storage.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/


ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
320. Plutonium is used in power generation
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 04:19 PM
Jul 2015

In both MOX reactors and fast-neutron reactors. The only reason why it is considered "waste" at the moment at all is because uranium prices are so incredibly low.

There isn't enough plutonium created as a byproduct of normal nuclear reactor operation to make this an ongoing problem. Certainly nothing compared to our current dumping of both radioactivity and CO2 into the atmosphere.

Clearly, the best possible mechanism for power generation is a combination of energy storage and solar/wind, along with ocean hydrodynamic (if possible). I've also got high hopes for Magnetized Target Fusion, though there are still a few practical engineering issues that need to be resolved first.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
324. Sure about that?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:18 PM
Jul 2015

Then why does the DoE have a multi-billion dollar facility - called WIPP - that was built to store plutonium waste?

Your idea that coal waste is as bad, so why do they just let it off into the atmosphere? Why are there no WIPP type facilities like there is for your so called no 'problem' plutonium, 'not' waste?

Your whole premise is false and unfounded; you should cease posting such false and unfounded claims.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
326. Because its less expensive to use uranium than to reprocess plutonium
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:36 PM
Jul 2015

...and store the plutonium. Oh, and WIPP isn't just for plutonium. It contains all sorts of less useful radioactive waste, such as americium, neptunium, and yes, even uranium (go figure).

The 50 year fight over nuclear power has landed us in a worst-of-both-worlds situation, where we won't shut down old power plants that we know have inherent problems, because of the absurd amounts of regulatory hurdles are thrown in the way, but meanwhile shady laws shielding power companies from liability are thrown around, disincentivising prudent maintenance. The result is a system that is far more wasteful and less safe than it could be. People clutch their pearls about nuclear power being held inside of sealed containment reactors while at the same time, that same nuclear waste is being shipped around on trains without a thought.

And yet, no matter all the stupidity, it's still one of the safest means of constant power generation out there. Massively better than any combustion based power generation.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
362. You have no sense of the reality of nukes
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jul 2015

And is part of the reason for situations like Fukushima.

The industry has told the biggest whooper lie: "Nukes are safe"

And there are still people professing as much even in the light of Fukushima. Like you just did.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
370. Fukushima is a classic example of what I'm talking about
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jul 2015

There were books and warnings written about that plant for decades. Nothing was done because the cry-wolf behavior on every single nuclear plant everywhere by luddites have made people inured to actual concerns, along with the Japanese "fall in line" culture, and a manifest cheapness on the part of Tokyo Electric.

The very statement that you're making "Nukes" indicates that mentally you're equating nuclear power with bombs. It's absurd.

And of course there are people still professing the truth. Modern nuclear power generation plant designs are self-stopping. And the worse nuclear "disaster" in the U.S. exposed people to 80μSv of radiation around 3 mile island - the equivalent of a round trip flight from San Francisco to New York.

But... ooooh boogie boogie boogie. Let's breathe in that coal ash instead. That'll be healthy, I'm sure.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
374. There you go denying reality again
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:04 PM
Jul 2015

"Nothing was done" you say, because people warned that it would blow up.

Do you not see how that is crazy talk? Indeed that is the TEPCO line they used.

Again, since you are in denial: The US built a multi-million dollar facility called WIPP, to contain Plutonium, while they have little concern for emissions from coal plants. Yet you talk like plutonium is safe!!!

Your utter denial of obvious facts, and your utterance that nukes are safe, is just incredible, meaning not credible. Par for the course tho, from nuke lovers.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
392. Again, I'm giving you reality, and you're ignoring it
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:03 PM
Jul 2015

If you scream about "nukes", when we're talking about generalized nuclear power, radiation medicine, use of nuclear isotopes in spacecraft, all of which are not a single thing, then it's obvious you don't understand what you're criticizing.

If you (and people like you) scream that every nuclear reactor is a "nuke" that is unsafe, no matter what, then people simply start rolling their eyes, and ignoring everything you have to say.

Get enough luddite screamers, screaming, and pretty soon you make it easy for people running power plants to dismiss the warnings of actual nuclear experts about actual dangers - as just more incoherent, illogical, emotional, ignorant, screaming. Which is exactly what happened in Fukishima.


By the way, this attitude of yours is prevalent in other places as well. People who don't bother to notice that it's Republicans that are screwing up the economy, but just blame "politicians", and "politics", are the reason why Republicans win.

Nuclear power has less inherent danger to it, and has caused tens if not hundreds of thousands of times less environmental destruction and human health problems, than combustive power generation. Period. If you want to pretend that's not true, there is really no further point to this discussion.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
444. Heh
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:59 PM
Jul 2015

Ok, nuclear power plants are not safe. That defeats half your argument.

As for the rest:
Blaming Fukushima on people who said that Fukushima would blow up is crazy talk. It is indeed, you, that is screaming nuclear power plants are safe, when all the evidence in the world is that the nuclear power plant emissions are not safe.

The US government has a Nuclear Regulatory Commission that has been instituted to regulate the nuclear power industry in the US. It did not do so at the request of the people you call responsible for Fukushima, it did so because the science says that allowing the emissions to escape into the atmosphere, like is allowed by coal burning, would kill everyone. I hate to get so simple with this explanation, but your false claims are so low as to have to go low to try and get it into your head just how wrong you are.

Again: the US government is, and has been, more concerned with nuclear power plant emissions than they ever have been about coal, because the science says:

NUKES ARE NOT SAFE!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
30. ENENEWS is doing better reporting on Fukushima than the for-profit media.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jul 2015

For example, from December 2013:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024172330

Don't know about naturalnews. Ask your anti-RFK Jr. chums.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
41. Speaking of dumbed-down, I don't remember you ever posting about the NAZIs on DU.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:37 AM
Jul 2015

I've posted about their links to Wall Street and the GOP for more than 12 years as Octafish and a year before that as Oblomov on DU. The reason I do so is to stop their evil.

Here's an example from 2007:

Hey RUMSFELD! Who's your NAZI?

One from 2009:

A fact curiously missing from American history and any mention of the Warren Commission

Note in the thread that I took the time to show how the GOP and CIA history share a lot with the NAZIs. That information is important to maintain Democracy in the present, don't you think?

So, my question to you, zappaman, would be: Where do you post anything about the NAZIs and their impact on the the present day?

PS: Sorry if I offended you for bringing in Rev. Niemoeller.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
49. I don't compare analysis of a website that hosts anti-Semites
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:42 AM
Jul 2015

To the genocide of 6 million people either.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
83. Nice try. Show where you post at all on the subject on DU.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:20 AM
Jul 2015

Doesn't even have to link to any of my threads or any thread mentioning CounterPunch or ConsortiumNews.

It doesn't exist. Otherwise, the emoticon.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
87. I have no idea why you promote the writings of anti-Semites
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jul 2015

Or why you think criticizing a website that hosts the writings of anti-Semites is comparable to the genocide of 6 million people.

But I have my suspicions...

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
153. So you go ad hominem as you have nothing to back you up.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:29 PM
Jul 2015

And when it comes to smearing, that's not good. Everybody can see.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
97. You aren't helping your 'case' with posts like that, you know.....
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:28 AM
Jul 2015

Or maybe you don't know?

Next thing ya know, we'll learn all about Batboy hiding out with Hitler clones inside a secret passage at Confederate bastion Stone Mountain....

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
359. What case? Those are the facts.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:24 PM
Jul 2015

Show where I'm wrong if you disagree. Here's a quick example for you to use and refute my "case" from 2007:

Know your BFEE: Spawn of Wall Street and the Third Reich

Members of the Bush Family Evil Empire -- the public face of the War Party that has hijacked America -- embody the spawn of the Fourth Reich and Wall Street.


[font size="2"]Warmonger by John Carroll.[/font size]

Like the NAZI gangster warmongers they are, the BFEE's "work" serves only to enrich their cronies and their "actions" penure, enslave and kill innocent people.

How they got that way:



Allen Dulles, the NAZIs, and the CIA

By Cory Panshin
March 2005

Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg once stated that "The Dulles brothers were traitors." Some historians believe that Allen Dulles became head of the newly formed CIA in large part to cover up his treasonous behavior and that of his clients.

-- Christian Dewar, Making a Killing

Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of "freedom" and "democracy." They really only wanted "absolute power."

Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit "sixty of Allen Dulles' closest friends" to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis. In his end-of-life despair, Angleton assumed that he would see all his old companions again "in hell."

-- Michael Hasty, Paranoid Shift


EXCERPT…

Allen Welsh Dulles was born to privilege and a tradition of public service. He was the grandson of one secretary of state and the nephew of another. But by the time he graduated from Princeton in 1914, the robber baron era of American history was coming to an an end, ushered out by the Sherman Anti-Trust Act -- which had been used in 1911 to break up Standard Oil -- and by the institution of the progressive income tax in 1913. The ruling elite was starting to view government less as their own private preserve and more as an unwanted intrusion on their ability to conduct business as usual. That shift of loyalties in itself may account for many of the paradoxical aspects of Dulles's career.

Dulles entered the diplomatic service after college and served as a State Department delegate to the Paris Peace Conference of 1919, which brought a formal end to World War I. The Versailles Treaty which came out of this conference included a provision making it illegal to sell arms to Germany. This displeased the powerful DuPont family, and they put pressure on the delegates to allow them to opt out. It was Allen Dulles who finally gave them the assurances they wanted that their transactions with Germany would be "winked at."

Dulles remained a diplomat through the early 1920's, spending part of that time in Berlin. However, he left government service in 1926 for the greener pastures of private business, becoming a Wall Street lawyer with the same firm as his older brother, John Foster Dulles.

By the middle 20's, Germany had started recovering from the effects of the war and its postwar economic collapse, and the great German industrial firms were looking like attractive investment opportunities for wealthy Americans. W.A. Harriman & Co., formed in 1919 by Averell Harriman (son of railroad baron E.H. Hariman) and George Herbert Walker, had led the way in directing American money to German companies and had opened a Berlin branch as early as 1922, when Germany was still in chaos. At that time, Averell Harriman traveled to Europe and made contact with the powerful Thyssen family of steel magnates. It was to be a long-lasting and fateful partnership.

CONTINUED…

http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/secret/rightroots/...



How they stay that way:



The CIA and Nazi War Criminals

National Security Archive Posts Secret CIA History
Released Under Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act


National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 146

Edited by Tamara Feinstein

February 4, 2005

Washington D.C., February 4, 2005 - Today the National Security Archive posted the CIA's secret documentary history of the U.S government's relationship with General Reinhard Gehlen, the German army's intelligence chief for the Eastern Front during World War II. At the end of the war, Gehlen established a close relationship with the U.S. and successfully maintained his intelligence network (it ultimately became the West German BND) even though he employed numerous former Nazis and known war criminals. The use of Gehlen's group, according to the CIA history, Forging an Intelligence Partnership: CIA and the Origins of the BND, 1945-49, was a "double edged sword" that "boosted the Warsaw Pact's propaganda efforts" and "suffered devastating penetrations by the KGB."

The declassified "SECRET RelGER" two-volume history was compiled by CIA historian Kevin Ruffner and presented in 1999 by CIA Deputy Director for Operations Jack Downing to the German intelligence service (Bundesnachrichtendienst) in remembrance of "the new and close ties" formed during post-war Germany to mark the fiftieth year of CIA-West German cooperation. This history was declassified in 2002 as a result of the work of The Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group (IWG) and contains 97 key documents from various agencies.

This posting comes in the wake of public grievances lodged by members of the IWG that the CIA has not fully complied with the mandate of the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act and is continuing to withhold hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation related to their work. (Note 1) In interviews with the New York Times, three public members of the IWG said:

• "I think that the CIA has defied the law, and in so doing has also trivialized the Holocaust, thumbed its nose at the survivors of the Holocaust and also at the Americans who gave their lives in the effort to defeat the Nazis in World War II." - Former congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman

• "I can only say that the posture the CIA has taken differs from all the other agencies that have been involved, and that's not a position we can accept." - Washington lawyer Richard Ben-Veniste

• "Too much has been secret for too long. The CIA has not complied with the statute." - Former federal prosecutor Thomas H. Baer


The IWG was established in January 11, 1999 and has overseen the declassification of about eight million pages of documents from multiple government agencies. Its mandate expires at the end of March 2005.

CONTINUED w LINKS…

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB146/index.htm



Who would want that NAZI records law to be ignored?



Here’s where the Bush Crime Family comes in:



Nazis and Bush family history:

Government investigated Bush family's financing of Hitler

By Carla Binion
December 21, 2000

This article on Nazis in the Republican party was originally published in Online Journal on 1/28/00. However, the following includes additional information regarding George H. W. Bush's father, Prescott, and his maternal grandfather, George Herbert (Bert) Walker, and the fact that the U. S. government investigated their financing of Adolf Hitler.

One book referenced here, Christopher Simpson's "Blowback," was praised by journalist Seymour Hersh as "the ultimate book about the worst kind of cold war thinking." Nora Levin, Director, Holocaust Archive, Gratz College, said "The full story of this country's shameful, cynical collaboration with Nazi criminals has not been told until now with the publication of Simpson's book." Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman said, 'Blowback' is a must read for anyone who wants to understand postwar policy on Nazi war criminals and the cold war."

In another Simpson book, "The Splendid Blonde Beast," the author wrote about George H. W. Bush's father, Prescott, and his maternal grandfather, George Herbert Walker. Both Bert Walker and Prescott Bush were powerful financial supporters of Adolf Hitler.

Walker was president of Union Banking Corporation, a firm that traded with Germany and helped German industrialists consolidate Hitler's political power. Simpson says Union Banking became a Nazi money-laundering machine.

Walker helped take over North American operations of Hamburg-Amerika Line, a shipping line and cover for I. G. Farben's Nazi espionage unit in the U. S. Hamburg-Amerika smuggled in German agents, and brought in money for bribing American politicians to support Hitler. A 1934 congressional investigation showed Hamburg-Amerika subsidized Nazi propaganda efforts in the U. S.

CONTINUED…

http://www.govsux.com/nazisandbushfamilyhistory.html



Gee. A certain class of people seem to benefit most from war. Here's a treasure trove of treason history:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/nazi.html



The class Allen Dulles and Prescott Bush worked for. And the Bushes worked for THEM.

In answer to a question during his press conference of Feb. 14, 2007, Gov. George W Bush said: “Money trumps peace.”





Q: A lot of our allies in Europe do a lot of business with Iran. So I wonder what your thoughts are about how you further tighten the financial pressure on Iran, in particular, if it also means economic pain for a lot of our allies.

BUSH: It's an interesting question. One of the problems, not specifically on this issue, just in general, that - let's put it this way: Money trumps peace, sometimes.

In other words, commercial interests are very powerful interests throughout the world. And part of the issue in convincing people to put sanctions on a specific country is to convince them that it's in the world's interest that they forego their own financial interest.

And that's why sometimes it's tough to get tough economic sanctions on countries, and I'm not making any comment about any particular country, but you touched on a very interesting point.

You know - so, therefore, we're constantly working with nations to convince them that what really matters in the long run is to have the environment so peace can flourish.

In the Iranian case, I firmly believe that, if they were to have a weapon, it would make it difficult for peace to flourish, and therefore I am working with people to make sure that that concern trumps whatever commercial interests may be preventing governments from acting.

I make no specific accusation with that statement. It's a broad statement. But it's an accurate assessment of what sometimes can halt multilateral diplomacy from working.

SOURCE:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/stor ...

[font color="red"][font size="6"]“Money trumps peace.”[/font size][/font color]



That does explain a lot. “Money trumps peace.”
In fact, that explains everything about everything in regards to the BFEE and their cronies in the War Party.
To them, money and power are everything.
Isn’t that the definition of a warmonger?
It also is the spirit of a NAZI.

The only thing that can stop them from becoming the Fourth Reich is...



... the Truth and We the People.

So, besides ignoring "Godwin's Law," where am I wrong, MADem?

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
507. Thanks for the info and links.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:40 PM
Jul 2015

That was full of good history.

On another note I would like to express my disappointment with Reuters news service. There was a time, 10 years ago or so, that I had a permanent link to Reuters in order to get a good overview of the news.

Alas, but now Reuters says what they are told to say, "or else." Reuters' stories are fully peppered with propaganda and unsubstantiated claims. They always cite, "a senior intelligence official, an unidentified State Dept. spokesperson," or some other anonymous "expert." This is not journalism, this is propaganda and I know it when I see it. I could call out a few more "mainstream," media outlets for the same thing. If we are going to start banning news outlets, Reuters should be first.

Thanks again for all you do.

Response to zappaman (Reply #7)

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
8. Come down off that cross, we can use the wood for something useful.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:03 AM
Jul 2015

Exposing people like Parry and sites like Counterpunch as the hacks they are is not "coming for them."

You know what happened when people "came for" the Socialists, trade unionists, and Jews? They rounded them up, imprisoned them, shot them, gassed them, burned them alive, experimented on them, and tortured them.

Parry and the Putin bootlickers at Counterpunch are not being rounded up, imprisoned, shot, gassed, burned alive, experimented on, or tortured. They're being critically analyzed.

The regime they're consistently apologizing for, on the other hand, is starting to "come for" LGBT Russians, dissident politicians and activists, and are either in the process of or have threatened to shut down opposition television stations and newspapers in both Crimea and Russia.

This OP is utterly fucking reprehensible, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it, using Niemoller to defend fascist apologia.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
16. Wow! You, a forum host, applaud me being compared to a fascist apologist?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:15 AM
Jul 2015

Learn something new every day.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
24. Forum hosts are also DUers. They are free to express their opinions on
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:24 AM
Jul 2015

this site, just the same as any other DUer. Hosts do nothing but keep forums on track, as stated in the SOP for each forum. Their individual opinions have nothing to do with that job.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
50. That makes me wonder why some posts are taken down and some allowed to stand.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:43 AM
Jul 2015

You and zappaman and MineralMan and whoever make a consensus, eh?

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
66. Hosts do not "take down" posts. They can only lock OPs that
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:56 AM
Jul 2015

stray from the Statement of Purpose of a forum. The post is not "taken down," and remains visible to anyone. The discussion is locked. The post remains.

Forum hosts are a mixed group of DUers, and do not have much in common with each other, except for being willing to help the admins of this site keep forums on track, according to the wishes of the administrators. Hosts cannot hide anything. Their only power is to lock threads that are not in keeping with the Statement of Purpose of a particular forum.

In the post I'm replying to, you are calling out three individual hosts by name. Those three are only three of 30. Consensus means just what it says. Threads are locked based on consensus, after discussion. If you have an issue with hosting, the Ask the Administrators forum is the place to take that up with the administrators. GD is not that place.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
81. Consensus of all 30? Or just those who happen to be around?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:18 AM
Jul 2015

As for "taken down": A post is no good if people cannot comment on it, including the OP. To me, that would be like censorship.

Thanks for the reply.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
88. All 30 hosts are never online at the same time.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:23 AM
Jul 2015

Consensus is reached by those who are. If another host later wants to object to a lock, the lock can be removed. That happens from time to time, although not often. Forum hosts are very careful about locking, and only lock when a forum's SOP has been violated.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
453. That is so witty.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:46 PM
Jul 2015

That's the first time I've associated that word with you, FBaggins.

FBaggins

(28,613 posts)
498. Just pointing out your decade-long defense of Parry's psychotic break from reality
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 09:12 AM
Jul 2015

You're more comfortable on that particular cross than joining the rest of us in the real world.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
249. You mean where you cited a DUer banned for Holocaust denial to prove that another Holocaust denier
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:10 AM
Jul 2015

you cited....Israel Shamir. .....was credible?

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
256. You mean the DUer banned for holocaust denial that was referred to as
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jul 2015

"A great DUer"?
Yeah....

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
258. I'm fucking floored that the very simple message "Stop citing Holocaust deniers"
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:35 AM
Jul 2015

Is apparently not getting through.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
261. I never ascribe maliciousness to what can be explained by sheer stupidity......
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:41 AM
Jul 2015

I think it's a toss up at this point.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
264. To what do you ascribe your condescension?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:48 AM
Jul 2015

I never treated you in a condescending manner.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
265. it fucking floors me that you are upset about condescension....
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:50 AM
Jul 2015

But citing Holocaust deniers seems to not bother you at all.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
270. Where do I promote anti-Semitism?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:59 AM
Jul 2015

You made the claim. Show. Shouldn't be too fucking hard, even for someone as well educated as you claim to be.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
271. I didn't claim you promoted anti-Semitism.....I said you cited Holocaust deniers.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:04 AM
Jul 2015

I was extremely specific with what I accused you of and I can prove it...... You absolutely have cited Holocaust deniers.

when are you going to stop citing Holocaust deniers as credible sources for anything?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
280. 261. ''I never ascribe maliciousness to what can be explained by sheer stupidity......''
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:57 AM
Jul 2015

"I think it's a toss up at this point." -- msanthrope

So, where do I promote anti-Semitism?

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
282. You must have quoted the wrong post.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jul 2015

Since that doesn't say what you claim it does.
What do you call someone who makes things up?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
289. Octa, I'm referring to your citation of Holocaust deniers.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:30 PM
Jul 2015

That you have cited Holocaust deniers is an incontrovertible fact.

Do you not see a problem with uncritically linking to Holocaust deniers?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
463. That's a smear by association, msanthrope.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:09 PM
Jul 2015

Nowhere on what I cited had anything to do with Holocaust denial.

I cited one article that has been used over and over again by a few DUers to create a "case."

That's why when I ask you, or anyone, to show where I cite a Holocaust denier, you don't.

The original smear is left to stand and people are left to wonder why it pays to be anonymous online, among other things.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
469. Then alert.....and any juror can Google your username, my username, and "shamir"
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:41 PM
Jul 2015

and see the repeated threads and repeated times you have cited Israel Shamir a noted Holocaust denier and I have called you out on it.

how difficult is it to stop using noted Holocaust deniers as sources? how is not clear to you that if the only source you can find on something is a noted Holocaust denier you might just might be publishing bullshit?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
470. Just show where I did any of that. No need to repeat it.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:44 PM
Jul 2015

As for alerts, I got better ways of getting "even," that is showing who's wrong. In the present case, that is you.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
481. How difficult is it to tell the truth?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:12 PM
Jul 2015

For some posters here the difficulties seem to hard to overcome. But perhaps they just don't remember very well? Let me help you out a little:

The information in the article by Israel Shamir about the Assange accuser's connections to anti-Cuban circles was not bullshit, it was about facts and we talked about that right here on this forum even before Shamir published his article.

What was published at Counterpunch was nothing but a summary of what had been discussed the days before in Sweden. It was all online and ready for everyone to read if you would take the time and were able to decipher Swedish. Shamir happened to be there and apparently he is fluent in Swedish. So, thanks to him, even some of those Americans were kept up-to-date who would otherwise never have had access to this information.

That was the purpose of the article, that was the purpose of quoting it here, and that is what makes you angry, apparently.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
495. Thank you for proving that what was posted was in fact, correctly translated bullshit. nt
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:32 PM
Jul 2015

reorg

(3,317 posts)
497. I realize you don't want to hear about Assange and Wikileaks
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 09:09 AM
Jul 2015

and won't shut up about them neither. We all have our own little obsessions, I guess.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
276. There you go again.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:33 AM
Jul 2015

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Putting words into people's mouths.

So honest of you.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
275. Even with an OP that compares outing a site that hosts anti-Semites
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:31 AM
Jul 2015

With the genocide of 6 million people?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
292. You got me there...... seriously I want to take the Op and the reccers
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:38 PM
Jul 2015

And ask them if they think that DU is Auchwitz at this point...... I mean what with the persecution that goes on here..... I mean hell I suppose we could construe Sid's smileys as a war crime.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
473. Are you talking to the voices in your head?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 08:20 PM
Jul 2015

I can't begin to know what your comment is even supposed to mean.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
382. You are wrong, NuclearDem.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:42 PM
Jul 2015
This OP is utterly fucking reprehensible, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it, using Niemoller (sic) to defend fascist apologia.


Like Martin Niemöller, ConsortiumNews stands up to NAZIs. Why you can't see that is not my problem, it's your business.

Here's a nice compendium to back up what I wrote:



Ronald Reagan's Bloody Apocalypto
For many Americans who have watched Mel Gibson's Apocalypto, the pain of the fictional ancient Mayas in the movie is more real than the actual suffering of real Mayas who were tortured and slaughtered in the 1980s with the help of then-President Ronald Reagan. When a right-wing military dictator was waging this modern genocide against Mayas, Reagan was busy covering the killers' tracks and giving them more efficient weapons to carry out the task. But that history now is less known to Americans than Gibson's faux history of 500 years ago. December 17, 2006

Pinochet's Death Spares Bush Family
The heart-attack death of notorious Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet means the Bush Family can breathe a little easier, knowing the criminal cases against Pinochet can no longer implicate his longtime friend and protector, George H.W. Bush. Pinochet also was protected from facing justice by George W. Bush, who sidetracked an FBI recommendation to indict Pinochet for the terrorist murder of a Chilean dissident and an American woman in Washington in 1976. December 12, 2006

CIA's Worst-Kept Secret
Newly released documents confirm that U.S. intelligence recruited and protected hundreds of Nazi war criminals after World War II. By Martin A. Lee. May 16, 2001

Ashcroft & Anti-Semitism
In a speech at Bob Jones University, John Ashcroft -- now the attorney general-designate -- overstated the alleged role of the Jews of ancient Jerusalem in the crucifixion of Jesus. January 16, 2001.

Clinton 'Tasks' Release of Chile Secrets
Political risk from Pinochet case spreads. By Peter Kornbluh. May 8, 1999

Pinochet's Mad Scientist
A potential witness against ex-Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was silenced in a murder mystery that shows the continuing power of the Operation Condor assassination network. By Samuel Blixen. January 13, 1999

The Judge & the Dictator
Spain’s ‘superjudge,’ Baltasar Garzon, followed a winding road in his pursuit of Gen. Augusto Pinochet. By Alvaro Tizon. January 13, 1999

Evita, the Swiss & the Nazis
New evidence, including documents from Swiss archives, buttresses old suspicions that Argentine legend Eva Peron helped pull together the loose ends of a Nazi escape network after World War II. These “ratlines” turned Argentina and South America into safe havens for fugitive followers of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini -- with violent consequences that continue to the present day. By Georg Hodel. January 7, 1999

Kohl's Defeat & Hitler's Ghost
The compromises of Germany's World War II generation. October 25, 1998

The Chile Coup -- The U.S. Hand
Pinochet's arrest and Nixon's secret war to "save" Chile. October 25, 1998

A Nazi Echo: Argentine Death Camps & the Contras
Argentine Dirty Warriors implicated in funnelling drug money to the Nicaraguan contras were also connected to a Nazi-like scheme of plundering the personal property of death camp victims, with the proceeds going into Swiss banks. Sept. 19, 1998

Argentina's Dapper State-Terrorist
Former Argentine dictator Jorge Rafael Videla, another Reagan favorite, faces new charges in a baby-harvesting scandal. August 19, 1998



BTW: Blaming ConsortiumNews and me for what Putin does in Russia not only is a non-sequitur, it's a great propaganda technique.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
13. Who's "coming for" Consortium News?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:13 AM
Jul 2015

If the government is trying to shut down websites I would like to know about it.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
21. Nobody is. Many, however, question
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:22 AM
Jul 2015

Robert Parry's obvious alliance with the Putin regime's propaganda, as often displayed at Consortium News. That has causes some posts from that source to be shut down as Conspiracy Theory stuff, particularly articles relating to Ukraine. They always seem to reflect the Russian point of view, to the exclusion of everything else.

But nobody is trying to shut down that website at all. That's why this is a poor use of that analogy. It's a very weak comparison.

I don't see that site as a reliable source for much of anything, really.

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
152. Is there something wrong with looking at all points of view?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:26 PM
Jul 2015

It aids in formulating a well rounded opinion. Since I know how our msm is slanted I read papers from all over the world to see what they are thinking or reporting about a subject... Russian points of view also. It is not like our govt does not have it's own agenda as does Russia's govt. Reading something is not the same as agreeing with what one is reading.

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
157. You should do what you wish to do.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:42 PM
Jul 2015

If you share things on a forum, though, you should expect the source to be scrutinized, too. Everyone's free to look at things from any perspective they wish, but if you're sharing, everyone else is free to discuss your source.

That's DU, in a nutshell.

EX500rider

(12,132 posts)
494. "Is there something wrong with looking at all points of view?"
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:57 PM
Jul 2015

Yes, yes there is....I am not interested in Stormfronts view for example.....nor do I want the Mullah's view point from PressTV.......the North Korean News Agency is also off my list.....etc..

MineralMan

(150,521 posts)
38. Nobody's "coming for" any of them.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jul 2015

The "persecution" meme is the stock in trade for advocacy websites. Also for fundamentalist Christians and other questionable movements.

Claiming persecution is also a common meme for those who promote conspiracy theories. It's tiresome in all cases, and indicative of desperation.

Nobody's trying to shut down any of those websites.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
94. It's Tag Team.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:26 AM
Jul 2015

Hey, zappaman! I thought two heads were supposed to be better than one!

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
338. The call goes out and they come running. Emboldened by their friends. Not offering
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:49 PM
Jul 2015

counter arguments but only gang attacks with ridicule and derision. Kind of a feeding frenzy of ridicule. They are frustrated because they can't enter normal political discussions about important issues like fracking, the TPP, Arctic drilling, drone killing, torture, indefinite detentions, etc., so the only thing they have to live for are ad hominem attacks on others.

Sad that this happens on a Politically Liberal message board. They certainly ain't politically liberal.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
339. Jury results:
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:08 PM
Jul 2015

On Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:51 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The call goes out and they come running. Emboldened by their friends. Not offering
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7011237

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Nice callout of DUers.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:06 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Wait, wut? We're alerting on blanket callouts now? Have you met DU?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not a callout as I read it...more an assessment of those few whose MO is relentless ad hominem attacks. Plus, I don't see any names of any DUers...

(So very glad that Admins are addressing those jurors who post abusive or offensive comments! tyvm!)


Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Should have been 0-7, not 1-6 imo.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
340. Thanks for posting. This is supposed to be a politically liberal message board
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:09 PM
Jul 2015

but some think that gang attacks and ridicule are appropriate. And when someone speaks up, bingo-bango they alert.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
341. There should be a tougher penalty for bullshit alerts.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:19 PM
Jul 2015

It's not meant to be used as a means to punish people you disagree with.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
343. It's like arguing with creationists.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:16 AM
Jul 2015

They're never wrong, and anyone who says otherwise is either persecuting them or is an agent of Them sent to test the faithful.

So, no, shockingly you don't particularly foster discussion by dodging questions, citing imaginary personal attacks, delegitimizing someone as a paid shill, and screaming "tag team!" Those are all called escape hatches, tactics one uses when they either don't want to or are incapable of debating their arguments' merits.

As I so often say to creationists: If you're being this thoroughly ridiculed, it might be because what you're saying is ridiculous.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
360. Not really. Creationists go by one source, the Bible.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:27 PM
Jul 2015

They don't like to think about things that are outside its pages.

Those who believe in democracy don't mind if people read all the books (and magazines and tee vee n radio shows) they want, including ones that don't fit in with the democratic orthodoxy.

People who believe in democracy trust people to make up their own minds.

That's a big difference even a Creationist would know, if they weren't fixated on one book.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(128,813 posts)
82. That's the opinion of one DUer.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:19 AM
Jul 2015

It's not the official policy of DU, as far as I know. And even if it were, it would be well within the rights of the owners of DU to do so, since it's a private web site whose rules we agree to follow as a condition of participating. You are always free to read Counterpunch to your heart's content, since nobody is trying to censor it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
92. Harold Pinter: Truth, War and the Big Lie
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:25 AM
Jul 2015

Thanks for the reply. Are you in favor of publishing a list of ''banned'' sources, The Velveteen Ocelot?

I am not. I think most people are smart enough to know what makes sense. The trouble comes in when the best propaganda system ever invented is at play. For those interested, Harold Pinter puts it in words more eloquently than I:

The Velveteen Ocelot

(128,813 posts)
106. No, of course not. And as far as I know Counterpunch hasn't been "banned."
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:57 AM
Jul 2015

Some people on DU consider it to be an unreliable source. Others have pointed out that some of its writers have unsavory connections. As far as I'm concerned people can link to it if they want to, but that's up to DU's management. I stopped reading Counterpunch and Consortium News ages ago because I found their articles to be annoyingly tendentious. What's the "truth"? Damned if I know, but sussing out media epistemology is way above my pay grade.

BainsBane

(57,314 posts)
117. I was on a jury last night
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:25 PM
Jul 2015

where a post concerning Sanders support of the the F-35 was hidden due to the alerter message that the blogs were "right-wing." They didn't appear such to me and none of the juror comments referenced that. Nonetheless the post was hidden. We can draw our own conclusions as to why. Hides are actual repercussions. Criticizing a publication is free speech, the same free speech rights you claim to be upholding on your OP. Think on that. That Duers right to criticize is as important as their right to publish. Neither trumps the other.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
43. First, they came for those who paraphrased Niemöller, and I did not speak out.... (nt)
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jul 2015

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
59. That would be unconstitutional.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:48 AM
Jul 2015

First Amendment. I don't know why, I'd think a DUer identifying with unions would understand that.

Here in Detroit, the newspaper owners busted the reporters' unions -- first at the smaller papers then the two big dailies, The Detroit News and The Detroit Free Press.

It hasn't been working out so well, meither for the Truth of Democracy. For example:

Just sickening. "Emergency Manager" in Detroit caused blackout during heatwave to teach a lesson....

A friend who worked at a Detroit radio station asked why they weren't covering the story got sacked a week later. The reporter didn't have a union position, BTW.

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
25. Wow...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:24 AM
Jul 2015

using a poem written about the Holocaust to defend a website that publishes authors that are racists and anti-Semites.

That's pretty fucking bold.

Sid

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
34. I guess when you've invested so much time defending the likes of Paul Craig Roberts...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jul 2015

Israel Shamir, Christopher Bollyn and Wayne Madsen, you have to keep doubling down.

Acknowledging the truth about these reprehensible authors is just not an option.

Sid

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
67. Yeah...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:57 AM
Jul 2015

I used to believe that he was oblivious to the nature of the authors that he promotes at DU.

I no longer hold that belief. He's been made aware, on way too many occasions, of the odious opinions of authors like PCR, or Christopher Bollyn, or Israel Shamir, or Wayne Madsen, to be ignorant of who they are.

Sid

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
143. The neverending drama of DU:
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:30 PM
Jul 2015

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:35 PM - Edit history (1)



Note the hand of the cool guy just pushing the shark away!

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
75. It's almost like he did it right on cue. Few comedians have that kind of timing...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jul 2015

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:13 PM - Edit history (1)

The Velveteen Ocelot

(128,813 posts)
107. Nobody "came for" him, either. As far as I know he's still free
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:00 PM
Jul 2015

and not in some gulag somewhere. Some people don't like him and are critical of his writings. That's actually OK.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(128,813 posts)
72. Mr. Godwin? Is that you?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:07 AM
Jul 2015

Just curious how criticizing a couple of web sites on another (private) web site is like Nazi censorship.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
79. Discussing the quality and bias of news sources on DU isn't censorship.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:16 AM
Jul 2015

If you want actual censorship, you can look at Novaya Gazeta in Russia, which has had three of its journalists assassinated since 2001 and is now being threatened with closure by Putin's government for being pottymouths. (Not at all for being a consistent thorn in that KGB shithead's side, no sir.) Or you can look at the Tatar TV stations in Crimea being shut down.

It's understandable if you didn't hear about these. I'm sure they just slipped Counterpunch's and Parry's minds.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
128. It's not just Nazis but authoritarians of all strips
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jul 2015

They must control...it is their passion.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
183. It's neither a poem nor was it ever written down,
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:11 PM
Jul 2015

nor is it about the Holocaust.

As to the authors published at Counterpunch, if they actually were what you claim, it would be easy to prove with quotes. Hasn't happened so far, and I'm quite sure it won't.

So, now that we have seen what comes out if you try sentences, feel free to go back to your smilies! I'm sure nobody will complain.

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
31. I think someone needs to clean up his Wiki
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jul 2015

Like most Protestant pastors, Niemöller was a left wing-leaning national socialist, and openly supported the socialist opponents of the Weimar Republic. He thus welcomed Hitler's accession to power in 1933, believing that it would bring a national revival. However, he decidedly opposed the Nazis' "Aryan Paragraph". In 1936, he signed the petition of a group of Protestant churchmen which sharply criticized Nazi policies and declared the Aryan Paragraph incompatible with the Christian virtue of charity.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller#Role_in_Nazi_Germany

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
287. Niemoeller was a patriot.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:26 PM
Jul 2015


Before he went to the seminary, he was in the Imperial German Navy, not to be confused with the Kriegsmarine:



MARTIN NIEMÖLLER: BIOGRAPHY

EXCERPT...

The son of Lutheran pastor Heinrich Niemöller, Martin Niemöller was born in the Westphalian town of Lippstadt, Germany, on January 14, 1892. In 1910 he became a cadet in the Imperial German Navy. With the outbreak of World War I in 1914, Niemöller was assigned to a U-Boat, of which he was eventually appointed the commander. Under the stipulations of the armistice of November 11, 1918, that ended hostilities in World War I, Niemöller and other commanders were ordered to turn over their U-Boats to England. Along with many others, Niemöller refused to obey this order, and was, as a consequence, discharged from the Navy.

In 1920, he decided to follow the path of his father and began seminary training at the University of Münster. He married Else Bruner on April 20, 1919. The couple had 6 children.

Niemöller's pro-monarchist convictions and nationalism made him critical of the Weimar Republic, which he perceived to be weak and vulnerable to a Communist uprising. Because he believed that the Republic, led by those who signed the Treaty of Versailles, had crippled Germany, he supported the unsuccessful Kapp-Lüttwitz Putsch that aimed to overthrow the government in 1920. At this time Niemöller had been a member of an organization of right-wing students called the Academic Defense Corps (Freikorps), which was disbanded and disarmed on April 23, 1920, after the failure of the Kapp putsch.

As inflation and economic and political turmoil increased in Germany during 1922, Niemöller took a part-time job laying tracks for the railroads while continuing his seminary studies. In 1923, Niemöller began working with the Lutheran Home Mission of Westphalia, an organization which oversaw the social welfare activities of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Westphalia. In 1931, he resigned from this position and became the junior pastor of Saint Anne's Church, located in a wealthy and much sought-after parish in the Berlin suburb of Dahlem.

Niemöller's sermons reflected his strong nationalist sentiment. He felt that reparations, democracy, and foreign influence had led to damaging social fragmentation and an overemphasis on the individual in German society. Niemöller believed that Germany needed a strong leader to promote national unity and honor. When Hitler and the National Socialist Party emerged, touting nationalist slogans and advocating autonomy for private worship of the Christian faith, Niemöller voted for the Nazis—both in the 1924 Prussian state elections and in the final national parliamentary elections of March 1933.

Hitler espoused the importance of Christianity to German nationality and Christianity's role in a renewal of national morality and ethics, leading Niemöller to enthusiastically welcome the Third Reich. Niemöller later confessed that even Hitler's antisemitism reflected a more extreme version of his own prejudice at that time.

Niemöller's conflicts with National Socialism emerged out of his opposition to the German Christians, a pro-Nazi faction within the German Protestant Church that sought to apply Nazi racial dogma to church membership in such a way as to bar so-called non-Aryans (people considered Jewish under Nazi racial laws) from the ministry and from religious teaching positions.

The ideology of the German Christians was expressed in the speech of one of their leaders, Dr. Reinhold Krause, at the 1933 Sports Palace Rally. Depicting Martin Luther as a militant symbol for the preservation of German race and culture, the German Christians embraced Nazi racial ideology and demanded that all Jewish elements, including the Old Testament, be excluded from Christian theology. This rally was seen as blasphemous and led to a radical drop in support for the German Christians. But attacks on “non-Aryan” church members had already led Niemöller and others to establish the Pastors Emergency League (PEL) in September 1933. The PEL opposed the introduction of racialized criteria for clergy and combated the German Christian agenda.

CONTINUED...

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007391



Like somebody said, it's complicated.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
217. Can find Peter Dale Scott's writing there...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:49 PM
Jul 2015
McNamara - Taylor
PROPOSED STATEMENT
Oct 2, 1963

The security of South Vietnam remains vital to United States security. For this reason we adhere to the overriding objective of denying this country to communism and of suppressing the Viet Cong insurgency as promptly as possible.

Although we are deeply concerned by repressive practices, effective performance in the conduct of the war should be the determining factor in our relations with the GVN.[28]

--------------------------------

White House - Kennedy
ACTUAL STATEMENT
Oct. 2, 1963

The security of South Vietnam is a major interest of the United States as other free nations. We will adhere to our policy of working with the people and Government of South Vietnam to deny this country to communism and to suppress the externally stimulated and supported insurgency of the Viet Cong as promptly as possible. Effective performance in this undertaking is the central objective of our policy in South Vietnam.

While such practices have not yet significantly affected the war effort, they could do so in the future.

It remains the policy of the United States, in South Vietnam as in other parts of the world, to support the efforts of the people of that country to defeat aggression and to build a peaceful and free society.[29]

---------------------------

White House - Johnson
NSAM 273
(SECRET)
NOV. 26, 1963

It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported communist conspiracy. The test of all U.S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contributions to this purpose.[30]

SOURCE: http://www.history-matters.com/essays/vietnam/KennedyVietnam1971/KennedyVietnam1971.htm

The Velveteen Ocelot

(128,813 posts)
42. Seriously?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jul 2015

Nobody is "coming for" ConsortiumNews or Counterpunch. They are web sites that publish material of dubious quality and veracity; fair criticism is by no means the equivalent of "coming for" them. What a terribly inappropriate use of the words of Martin Niemöller!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
455. Really. I hate NAZIs. So does ConsortiumNews. So did Rev. Niemöller.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:55 PM
Jul 2015

Here's why:

Ronald Reagan's Bloody Apocalypto
For many Americans who have watched Mel Gibson's Apocalypto, the pain of the fictional ancient Mayas in the movie is more real than the actual suffering of real Mayas who were tortured and slaughtered in the 1980s with the help of then-President Ronald Reagan. When a right-wing military dictator was waging this modern genocide against Mayas, Reagan was busy covering the killers' tracks and giving them more efficient weapons to carry out the task. But that history now is less known to Americans than Gibson's faux history of 500 years ago. December 17, 2006

Pinochet's Death Spares Bush Family
The heart-attack death of notorious Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet means the Bush Family can breathe a little easier, knowing the criminal cases against Pinochet can no longer implicate his longtime friend and protector, George H.W. Bush. Pinochet also was protected from facing justice by George W. Bush, who sidetracked an FBI recommendation to indict Pinochet for the terrorist murder of a Chilean dissident and an American woman in Washington in 1976. December 12, 2006

CIA's Worst-Kept Secret
Newly released documents confirm that U.S. intelligence recruited and protected hundreds of Nazi war criminals after World War II. By Martin A. Lee. May 16, 2001

Ashcroft & Anti-Semitism
In a speech at Bob Jones University, John Ashcroft -- now the attorney general-designate -- overstated the alleged role of the Jews of ancient Jerusalem in the crucifixion of Jesus. January 16, 2001.

Clinton 'Tasks' Release of Chile Secrets
Political risk from Pinochet case spreads. By Peter Kornbluh. May 8, 1999

Pinochet's Mad Scientist
A potential witness against ex-Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was silenced in a murder mystery that shows the continuing power of the Operation Condor assassination network. By Samuel Blixen. January 13, 1999

The Judge & the Dictator
Spain’s ‘superjudge,’ Baltasar Garzon, followed a winding road in his pursuit of Gen. Augusto Pinochet. By Alvaro Tizon. January 13, 1999

Evita, the Swiss & the Nazis
New evidence, including documents from Swiss archives, buttresses old suspicions that Argentine legend Eva Peron helped pull together the loose ends of a Nazi escape network after World War II. These “ratlines” turned Argentina and South America into safe havens for fugitive followers of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini -- with violent consequences that continue to the present day. By Georg Hodel. January 7, 1999

Kohl's Defeat & Hitler's Ghost
The compromises of Germany's World War II generation. October 25, 1998

The Chile Coup -- The U.S. Hand
Pinochet's arrest and Nixon's secret war to "save" Chile. October 25, 1998

A Nazi Echo: Argentine Death Camps & the Contras
Argentine Dirty Warriors implicated in funnelling drug money to the Nicaraguan contras were also connected to a Nazi-like scheme of plundering the personal property of death camp victims, with the proceeds going into Swiss banks. Sept. 19, 1998

Argentina's Dapper State-Terrorist
Former Argentine dictator Jorge Rafael Videla, another Reagan favorite, faces new charges in a baby-harvesting scandal. August 19, 1998

That's why when people who falsely denigrate ConsortiumNews, are in reality supporting the ideology of those who imprisoned Rev. Niemöller.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
46. Yes, 6+ Million dead is exactly like people pointing out holes in your favored media's stories. (nt)
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jul 2015

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
358. How did you get that? ConsortiumNews is the antidote for NAZI ideology.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:04 PM
Jul 2015

For instance:

Ronald Reagan's Bloody Apocalypto
For many Americans who have watched Mel Gibson's Apocalypto, the pain of the fictional ancient Mayas in the movie is more real than the actual suffering of real Mayas who were tortured and slaughtered in the 1980s with the help of then-President Ronald Reagan. When a right-wing military dictator was waging this modern genocide against Mayas, Reagan was busy covering the killers' tracks and giving them more efficient weapons to carry out the task. But that history now is less known to Americans than Gibson's faux history of 500 years ago. December 17, 2006

Pinochet's Death Spares Bush Family
The heart-attack death of notorious Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet means the Bush Family can breathe a little easier, knowing the criminal cases against Pinochet can no longer implicate his longtime friend and protector, George H.W. Bush. Pinochet also was protected from facing justice by George W. Bush, who sidetracked an FBI recommendation to indict Pinochet for the terrorist murder of a Chilean dissident and an American woman in Washington in 1976. December 12, 2006

CIA's Worst-Kept Secret
Newly released documents confirm that U.S. intelligence recruited and protected hundreds of Nazi war criminals after World War II. By Martin A. Lee. May 16, 2001

Ashcroft & Anti-Semitism
In a speech at Bob Jones University, John Ashcroft -- now the attorney general-designate -- overstated the alleged role of the Jews of ancient Jerusalem in the crucifixion of Jesus. January 16, 2001.

Clinton 'Tasks' Release of Chile Secrets
Political risk from Pinochet case spreads. By Peter Kornbluh. May 8, 1999

Pinochet's Mad Scientist
A potential witness against ex-Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was silenced in a murder mystery that shows the continuing power of the Operation Condor assassination network. By Samuel Blixen. January 13, 1999

The Judge & the Dictator
Spain’s ‘superjudge,’ Baltasar Garzon, followed a winding road in his pursuit of Gen. Augusto Pinochet. By Alvaro Tizon. January 13, 1999

Evita, the Swiss & the Nazis
New evidence, including documents from Swiss archives, buttresses old suspicions that Argentine legend Eva Peron helped pull together the loose ends of a Nazi escape network after World War II. These “ratlines” turned Argentina and South America into safe havens for fugitive followers of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini -- with violent consequences that continue to the present day. By Georg Hodel. January 7, 1999

Kohl's Defeat & Hitler's Ghost
The compromises of Germany's World War II generation. October 25, 1998

The Chile Coup -- The U.S. Hand
Pinochet's arrest and Nixon's secret war to "save" Chile. October 25, 1998

A Nazi Echo: Argentine Death Camps & the Contras
Argentine Dirty Warriors implicated in funnelling drug money to the Nicaraguan contras were also connected to a Nazi-like scheme of plundering the personal property of death camp victims, with the proceeds going into Swiss banks. Sept. 19, 1998

Argentina's Dapper State-Terrorist
Former Argentine dictator Jorge Rafael Videla, another Reagan favorite, faces new charges in a baby-harvesting scandal. August 19, 1998

So show where are the holes? Not in ConsortiumNews. They cover the important news the mainstream media ignore to maintain the illusion that all is well on the part of our "betters." I'd say the hole is in the media you consume, as it's obvious from what you read, jeff47. No offense.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
488. You are claiming that people disliking your media choice is the holocaust.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:35 PM
Jul 2015

Seriously, take a step back and think about what you are writing.

You are claiming that people who dislike media you like is just like trying to murder all the Jews.

It's a web site. Criticizing it is not just like Auschwitz.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
490. No, you have no idea what you're blathering about
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:12 PM
Jul 2015

The quote in the OP is not about Auschwitz, which you'd have known had you thought about it a minute.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
491. :facepalm:
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:17 PM
Jul 2015

Ah yes, time for the literalists to show up and try to change the subject.

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
56. For posterity...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:45 AM
Jul 2015
First they came for ConsortiumNews, and I did not speak out—
Because I did not read ConsortiumNews.

Then they came for CounterPunch, and I did not speak out—
Because I did not read CounterPunch.

Then they came for Alternet, and I did not speak out—
Because I did not read Alternet.

Then they came for DU—and there was no one left to speak for Democracy.

With apologies to Rev. Niemöller.





First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.



Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

SOURCE: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392


Sid
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
100. There is something very Quijote-esque to his pronouncements
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:37 AM
Jul 2015

This whole idea that he is on some heroic quest against Fascism (which he will happily tell anyone who asks) when all he does is post these odd missives on DU, replete with the Man of La Mancha-esque arrogance and unswerving belief that he is the honorable one and a hero and never makes mistakes.

Where is Cervantes when you need him?

BainsBane

(57,314 posts)
120. I'm loving this thread
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jul 2015

DU just wouldn't be DU without this sort of thing. Octafish is a gift.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
459. Know your BFEE: Nazis couldn’t win WWII, so they backed Bushes.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 04:32 PM
Jul 2015
Original DU Thread from July 1, 2006:

Mexicans aren’t America’s immigration problem. NAZIs are.

And that taboo forms the evil heart of our nation’s secret government—the fact Nazis helped form the modern national security state. This fundamental secret has been kept from America’s people for nearly 60 years. Isn't it about time you (not you, DU) learned the Truth?

America has been influenced by Nazis, Nazi sympathizers and worse since the CIA allowed enabled them to escape justice after World War II.





CIA-Nazi Link Grows Clearer as More Documents Come to Light

Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann stands trial in Jerusalem in 1961. Apparently, the CIA knew of his whereabouts as early as 1958.

Ron Kampeas
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
WASHINGTON

A former Nazi rose to the highest ranks of a Western intelligence agency - and was a Soviet mole. A lead to Adolf Eichmann was ignored. A spy whose pathological lies made him useless, but who still escaped prosecution for war crimes.

These are among the revelations found among some 8 million pages of documents released here Tuesday that deal with German and Japanese war crimes, including 27,000 pages that detail the relationship after World War II between U.S. government agencies and suspected Nazis war criminals.

The message threading the documents was clear: The price one pays for consorting with evil men far outweighs the return.

"Using very bad people can have very bad consequences," Elizabeth Holtzman, a former U.S. congresswoman and a member of the Interagency Working Group that released the documents, said at a news conference last Tuesday at the National Archives. The group was established in 1999 to declassify rooms full of documents related to Nazi war crimes.

The mandate was later extended to Japanese war crimes.

CONTINUED…

https://web.archive.org/web/20060621170601/http://www.jewishexponent.com/ViewArticle.asp?ArtID=3617



This guy helped murder MILLIONS and people in the CIA helped him escape justice:



Read more from the records just released from the CIA’s files to the National Archives.

This big declassification of America’s darkest secret—CIA files kept hidden for 60 years—chronicle the CIA’s dependence on the NAZI war criminals, enlisted to fight Godless Communism. Gee. We became Satan’s bedfellows to fight the commies.

Please consider: The Nazis knew what awaited them at the hands of the Soviets. So, they cooked up plans to surrender to the United States. If they promised to help in the fight against the Soviets, they knew they would be welcomed by the West, find shelter and sooner rather than later, and in direct contradiction to the orders of President Harry S Truman, the Nazis would be welcomed in the West, or at least in High Society, as “ex-Nazis.”



The CIA's History Problem is Our History Problem

By David Wallace
Fri Jun 16, 9:22 PM ET

The author David Lowenthal once noted that the "past is a foreign country." The past might be better described as being more like a moving target - always in transition and susceptible (and vulnerable) to becoming unrecognizable to what we once believed. And more often than not new revelations are disorientating and troubling.

EXCERPT…

Such is the case with recent news accounts in the Washington Post and the New York Times that in the late 1950s the CIA knew that Adolf Eichmann was living in Argentina and had a pretty close pseudonym for him (Clemens instead of the actual alias of Klement), but did nothing to bring him to justice. That the CIA sought the cooperation and protection of Nazis, even those guilty of war crimes, after World War Two to serve its Cold War struggles is not news. But the extent of these relationships and the depths the CIA went through to protect them is news. These disclosures have been made possible through the ongoing efforts of the Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group (IWG), launched over eight years ago by the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act (Public Law 105-246). The key that unlocked this unsavory history has been the unparalleled access granted to the IWG into formerly secret government records and archives.

Concern over these disclosures extend beyond the sad facts surfaced by the IWG: such as official protection of Nazis residing in the United States and the CIA's post-war use of top Eichmann aides. They also include the entirely unconscionable fact that it has taken generations for the CIA to disclose this information, and only did so after a special act of Congress supplemented by years long battles to protect them from public knowledge. IWG member Thomas H. Baer pointed to such battles when he thanked the CIA for finally coming clean this past week. However, coming clean occurred only after "reversal of policy of thinly veiled noncompliance" with the IWG's legal mandate and the ongoing efforts of members of Congress and (some) IWG members and staff in making an "ironclad case decrying CIAs misinterpretation of its obligations."

Why has the CIA taken so long to open such records and archives? And do the excuses proffered around protecting national security really hold any credible value? I think the answer to the second question must be no, of course not. As to the first question, that is a trickier one, but one must look beyond the legal loopholes that protect secret information for such inordinate periods and look to see what agendas are at play. Clearly one agenda is to provide a simplistic and comforting (and at times woefully inaccurate) past as a means of enabling an ignorant, but strongly held, patriotism as a form of social glue that (kind of) holds society together. But a simplistic and comforting and inaccurate past can only be realized through the unreasonable, though legal, controls granted to the CIA over its historical records and archives. And it is in these seemingly rationally derived controls that the past itself can be held hostage.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-wallace/the-cias-history-problem-_b_23206.html



A good overview of the historical record from the Federation of American Scientists shows the CIA protected Adolf Eichmann by not revealing where he was to Allied investigators searching for war criminals and mass murderers. For those unfamiliar with Eichmann, he was one of the architects of the Holocaust, playing a major role in the deaths of millions of people.

Allowing Eichmann to escape justice and head to a safe haven in Bolivia was in direct contradiction to President Harry S Truman’s orders that no amnesty would be given to NAZI war criminals. Later on, our spies wouild not just be pals with NAZIs, our spies work for them. For proof, look around.



What’s worse. A bunch of the NAZIs were Commie spies. We were shafted, to put it mildly, by the same Satan.

Former longtime CIA director of counterintelligence James Jesus Angleton told author Joseph Trento his greatest regret in his job was not giving lie-detector tests to "Allen Dulles and 60 of his closest friends." He said he thought more than a few were traitors and expected to see them all in hell one day.



Within the confines of (Angleton’s) remarkable life were most of America’s secrets. “You know how I got to be in charge of counterintelligence? I agreed not to polygraph or require detailed background checks on Allen Dulles and 60 of his closest friends... They were afraid that their own business dealings with Hitler’s pals would come out. They were too arrogant to believe that the Russians would discover it all. . . . You know, the CIA got tens of thousands of brave people killed. . . We played with lives as if we owned them. We gave false hope. We - I - so misjudged what happened."

CONTINUED...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSangleton.htm



Writers like Mae Brussell, Christopher Simpson, Martin Lee, Linda Hunt, Carla Binion and Robert Parry and all people who are familiar with Operation PAPERCLIP have known this for decades, but most Americans are just beginning to learn about the close relationship between post-World War II United States Government and the Third Reich.

Principal among these agencies was the newborn CIA. Here’s what the agency and your government did to help war criminals, murderers of Americans and the architects of the Holocaust escape Justice, according to this month’s release of official CIA documents that had been kept classified for 60 years:



Allen Dulles, the NAZIs, and the CIA

Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg once stated that "The Dulles brothers were traitors." Some historians believe that Allen Dulles became head of the newly formed CIA in large part to cover up his treasonous behavior and that of his clients.

-- Christian Dewar, Making a Killing

Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of "freedom" and "democracy." They really only wanted "absolute power."

Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit "sixty of Allen Dulles' closest friends" to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis. In his end-of-life despair, Angleton assumed that he would see all his old companions again "in hell."

-- Michael Hasty, Paranoid Shift

EXCERPT…

Allen Welsh Dulles was born to privilege and a tradition of public service. He was the grandson of one secretary of state and the nephew of another. But by the time he graduated from Princeton in 1914, the robber baron era of American history was coming to an an end, ushered out by the Sherman Anti-Trust Act -- which had been used in 1911 to break up Standard Oil -- and by the institution of the progressive income tax in 1913. The ruling elite was starting to view government less as their own private preserve and more as an unwanted intrusion on their ability to conduct business as usual. That shift of loyalties in itself may account for many of the paradoxical aspects of Dulles's career.

Dulles entered the diplomatic service after college and served as a State Department delegate to the Paris Peace Conference of 1919, which brought a formal end to World War I. The Versailles Treaty which came out of this conference included a provision making it illegal to sell arms to Germany. This displeased the powerful DuPont family, and they put pressure on the delegates to allow them to opt out. It was Allen Dulles who finally gave them the assurances they wanted that their transactions with Germany would be "winked at."

Dulles remained a diplomat through the early 1920's, spending part of that time in Berlin. However, he left government service in 1926 for the greener pastures of private business, becoming a Wall Street lawyer with the same firm as his older brother, John Foster Dulles.

By the middle 20's, Germany had started recovering from the effects of the war and its postwar economic collapse, and the great German industrial firms were looking like attractive investment opportunities for wealthy Americans. W.A. Harriman & Co., formed in 1919 by Averell Harriman (son of railroad baron E.H. Hariman) and George Herbert Walker, had led the way in directing American money to German companies and had opened a Berlin branch as early as 1922, when Germany was still in chaos. At that time, Averell Harriman traveled to Europe and made contact with the powerful Thyssen family of steel magnates. It was to be a long-lasting and fateful partnership.

CONTINUED…

http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/secret/rightroots/...



These are the ties that bind. They go from Allen Dulle’s business ties to Prescott Bush and on through later to his CIA ties to George Herbert Walker Bush and from there to the Smirkelgrüber.



By extension, these records also show the fundamental secret of our nation’s government is the close alliance formed between the Nazis of World War 2 days and their partners in the CIA and other U.S. and Western intelligence agencies today still form the core of the nation’s clandestine national security apparatus.

So. The Nazis couldn’t beat the United States and the Allies in World War II. They surrendered to the USA and promised to work for us. Instead, they influenced, if not took over, key offices of the national security state.

Today, we see the fruits of their labor: The United States makes war on an innocent country for power and profit. The Constitution of the United States is trampled and redacted. And for most of the people of the United States, they haven’t got a clue.

Please tell me, who really won World War ?

The fact is: No one has done more to destroy America—the country, the Constitution, the We the People—than George W. Bush. Certainly not the Commies, in the form of the bloated and evil Soviet and Red Chinese threats and not even the Nazis of World War II with all their evil, have come anywhere near close to conquering the red, white and blue.

And George W Bush is the personification of the convergence of Post World War II Pro War Forces, from Wall Street to Reichstagfeuer to Cold War to BCCI to 911. And while Bush may be the incarnation of all things treasonous, he is just the visible face of the monster.

[font size="6"][font color="green"]Lot there for one to chew on, with links and sources identified so readers can learn even more. So, show where I'm wrong, SidDithers of DU. I'll be glad to apologize and correct my mistake. So, show.[/font color][/font size]

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
64. The Flock of Money
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:53 AM
Jul 2015

By working together, a lot can get done. Ask Phil Gramm and Bill Clinton. Since the repeal of Glass-Steagal, they've found employ at UBS -- the Swiss owned bank that received hundreds of billions in bailout "loans" and where Gramm now serves as vice chairman and Clinton as some kind of advisor in "Wealth Management."

http://financialservicesinc.ubs.com/revitalizingamerica/SenatorPhilGramm.html

BainsBane

(57,314 posts)
140. Are you saying you haven't seen that?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:21 PM
Jul 2015

Cause it's famous now, not just here but on Twitter.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
480. Idea from the approved site:
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:11 PM
Jul 2015

Third Way brags on Simpson Bowles

"Even though Democrats built the social safety net, they were largely silent about the need to fix it to ensure solvency and leave room for critical government investments like education and infrastructure. That's why we launched a long-term campaign to make a progressive case for fixing entitlements. We helped pass Simpson-Bowles, released our own Social Security reform plan, helped draft the only existing bipartisan Social Security fix legislation, introduced the idea of a collision course between entitlements and investments, became a lead venue for entitlement reformers, and directly influenced the language and policies of top Democrats including President Obama."


Krugman explains the effects of Simpson - Bowles (Catfood Commission):

Paul Krugman

New York Times economic columnist Paul Krugman is one of the commission's most prominent critics; "Simpson-Bowles is terrible. It mucks around with taxes, but is obsessed with lowering marginal rates despite a complete absence of evidence that this is important. It offers nothing on Medicare that isn’t already in the Affordable Care Act. And it raises the Social Security retirement age because life expectancy has risen — completely ignoring the fact that life expectancy has only gone up for the well-off and well-educated, while stagnating or even declining among the people who need the program most."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Simpson-Bowles_Commission

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
467. I'd want to hear what you said, even if you disagreed with me.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:37 PM
Jul 2015

Especially, if you disagreed with me.



Otherwise, how can I learn anything new?



Misguided Honor for Condi Rice

U.S. officials lecture others about respecting international law and punishing human rights crimes, but those principles are ignored when the violators are U.S. officials. Offenders like ex-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice even get honors, as Coleen Rowley and Todd E. Pierce note.

By Coleen Rowley and Todd E. Pierce
CounterPunch, April 3, 2014

Some of us predicted when Condi Rice left office that she would become intent on revising history. Faustian bargains don’t end that quickly!

It’s now come to pass that universities around the country, including Rutgers and the University of Minnesota, are willing to heap praise upon Rice and pay her huge speaking fees to hear her talk about her struggle for civil rights.

Her speech is not entitled what she usually likes to talk about: why war is good, but rather “Keeping Faith with a Legacy of Justice: the 50th Anniversary of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.” Does it sound like she’s hit upon another “noble cause” rationale for why she helped launch war on Iraq and initiate torture policies?

The University of Minnesota Humphrey Institute officials who arranged for Rice’s appearance cleverly framed their invitation as promoting academic freedom and free speech. But it’s not about free speech. A student group, which saw through this red herring, responded as follows:

“First, by rescinding her invitation, the university would not be limiting Dr. Rice’s free speech (ironically named, as she will be receiving $150,000 for the talk). We understand that university campuses are meant to be places where multiple viewpoints are heard, where students can be exposed to many opposing viewpoints. We firmly believe in this tradition.

“As you can imagine, given her prominent former positions as both the National Security Advisor and Secretary of State, Dr. Rice will have no shortage of platforms on which to express herself. Rescinding her invitation has nothing to do with limiting Dr. Rice’s right to free speech. Instead, it is about the University of Minnesota, continuously seeking to be perceived as a global university, tying itself to Dr. Rice’s abhorrent conduct on behalf of the American people.

“By extending this invitation, the University has condoned Dr. Rice’s authorization of so-called ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ and her using the threat of a mushroom cloud to push the United States into war with Iraq. The only appropriate action regarding Dr. Rice’s invitation is to rescind it. Only this would send the correct message: that the University of Minnesota stands with the people of the world against torture and unjustified war.”

A few weeks ago, the Faculty Councils at two Rutgers University campuses voted in support of a resolution to rescind Dr. Rice’s invitation to deliver the commencement address there.
Anyway we have sent the following letter on Wednesday in an effort to educate and inform some of the faculty, students and administration at the University of Minnesota who have invited Condi Rice to give their “Distinguished Northrop Lecture” on April 17.

Some of the faculty and students will be voting Thursday afternoon on a resolution asking that Rice be disinvited and we thought it important that the facts about her involvement in planning and ordering torture, at least what is currently known, be shared. Our letter reads:

“Dear Humphrey School Faculty, Fellows, Staff and PASA members: Former Vice President Mondale is on record as saying there should be some form of accountability for government officials’ use of torture in the so-called ‘war on terror.’ He said that otherwise it’s like laying a ‘loaded gun’ on the table that in the future could be picked up and used again.

“Unfortunately by inviting Condi Rice to give a distinguished Northrop lecture, the University of Minnesota just reached over the table and cocked that loaded gun. Strong reasons exist to oppose University officials’ decision to give the distinguished podium to someone, albeit a former high official, so credibly accused of serious war crimes. Planning and ordering of torture is a jus cogens crime of the highest magnitude under both domestic and international law, not protected by the First Amendment or even academic freedom.

“This is not about politics. This is not about facilitating an educational discussion via controversial speakers. This IS about criminality and whether our country is willing to follow the rule of law or make exceptions for past (or in fact, future) leaders’ actions.

“Despite efforts to keep the facts secret, enough truth has come out to establish that beginning in 2002, Rice convened dozens of top secret meetings of the National Security Council’s ‘Principals Committee’ (whose members also included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, George Tenet and John Ashcroft). The ‘Principals’ planned and approved the use of various tortures, even choreographing some, to include near drowning (waterboarding), sleep deprivation, physical assault, subjection to extremely cold temperatures to cause hypothermia and use of stress positions.

“At one point Attorney General Ashcroft even questioned the group, ‘Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly.’

“It was Rice herself who personally conveyed this White House group’s order to the CIA to commence waterboarding of prisoners, telling the CIA: ‘Go do it. It’s your baby’ in July of 2002, even before [Bush administration] lawyer John Yoo was tasked with writing his famously faulty ‘torture memo’ to ‘legalize’ what they were doing. The torture memos were an attempt to provide what a later Department of Justice lawyer would label a ‘golden shield’ from future criminal accountability for everyone involved. Other lawyers aptly describe Yoo’s memos as a kind of ‘get out of jail free’ card.

“After photos leaked depicting horrible inhumane abuses of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and Major General Antonio Taguba was assigned to investigate, he called the ‘interrogation program’ that Rice and other officials had devised a ‘systemic regime of torture.’ The list of approved tortures for the CIA had migrated down the military chain of command via Donald Rumsfeld, one of the main ‘Principals’ at the White House meetings.

“In 2008, the top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial, retired Judge Susan J. Crawford, was forced to dismiss war crime charges against an important 9-11 suspect when she concluded that the U.S. military tortured the Saudi national by interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a ‘life-threatening condition.’

“The difficulty University officials experience in understanding these facts about Condi Rice’s sordid history probably stems from a political decision, however, the one made by Obama when he took office to ‘not look backward, only look forward.’ That decision was not based on adherence to the law, as all accountability for crime inherently requires examining past actions.

“As a result, infighting still persists between the CIA and the Senate Intelligence Committee which has spent over $40 million of taxpayers’ money on a nearly five-year-long investigation that reviewed millions of government documents. The Senate investigation, launched after it was discovered the CIA illegally destroyed 92 videotapes of its waterboarding torture sessions, produced a 6,300 page report a year ago. It’s expected that a summary of that torture investigation will finally be released in the near future.

“In fact a declassification vote on the torture report will now likely occur on April 3 –coincidentally the very same day the University of Minnesota Faculty Senate votes whether to disinvite Condi Rice. But in the meantime, Senate Chair Diane Feinstein accused the CIA of having illegally removed documents from her Committee’s computers, apparently attempting to thwart legislative oversight. The torture investigation has thus reached a zenith in producing a constitutional crisis. Clearly these issues are contentious and the full truth has not yet emerged but that’s because such serious crimes are implicated!

“Unfortunately the legal artifice of the torture memos has worked thus far to protect Ms. Rice so she remains unrepentant and even continues to publicly shill for more pre-emptive wars. But University and Carlson Foundation officials should not be endorsing her past actions. They shouldn’t help her bury the truth and revise history.

“Since in fact there has been almost no accountability on the use of torture whether through congressional investigation, appointed commission or independent prosecutor and the courts, perhaps the state of Minnesota can provide at least a small measure of accountability by withdrawing its invitation.”


Coleen Rowley is a retired FBI agent and former Minneapolis Division legal counsel who writes on ethical and legal issues. Todd E. Pierce retired as a Major in the U.S. Army Judge Advocate General (JAG) Corps in 2012. He was assigned as Defense Counsel in the Office of Chief Defense Counsel, Office of Military Commissions from 2008-2012. (This article was written for Coleen Rowley’s blog at HuffingtonPost.)

https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/03/misguided-honor-for-condi-rice/

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
101. Does CounterPunch's publishing right wing authors mean we can not trust their left wing writers?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:43 AM
Jul 2015

Must a source be absolutely pure?

Must it publish only things acceptable to the left?

Is it possible to accept what one writer at Counterpunch says, and reject another from that same publication.

I am not comfortable with a purist lens. I think I can judge for myself the facts of an article.

But that is me.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
303. CounterPunch has good and bad, some stuff I read, most I like I skim, and lots I skip.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:32 PM
Jul 2015

Like all news sources, one has to consider the writer, the publication, the sources cited, the quotations taken, the circumstances of the article, and more; most of all, one must think about what one has read.

For example:

Will the Real Daniel Ellsberg Please Stand Up!

The Devil and Daniel Ellsberg

Daniel Ellsberg’s Lessons for Our Time

POVs on Ellsberg from all over the place. I read them and put what they added into the big wax puzzle box on my shoulders. I compare and contrast it with what I know, such as the time my cousin's nephew's college roommate's friend shook hands with the guy. From what I know, I think Ellsbergs's a great American.

Thank you, Agnosticsherbet. You get it and I, writing on behalf of the First Amendment and Democracy, thank you for it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
346. You are most welcome, Enthusiast! For Gary Webb and Media Manipulation, from Beverly Bandler...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:28 AM
Jul 2015
Gary Webb and Media Manipulation

Many Americans still count on the mainstream media to define reality for them, but too often the MSM spins false narratives that protect the powerful and diminish democracy, as happened in the long-running denial of cocaine trafficking by President Reagan’s beloved Nicaraguan Contra rebels, writes Beverly Bandler.

By Beverly Bandler
ConsortiumNews, November 2, 2014

The sad tale of the mainstream U.S. media’s destruction of journalist Gary Webb for reviving the Contra-cocaine scandal in the 1990s – a story recounted in the movie “Kill the Messenger” – is important not only because of Webb’s tragic demise but because the case goes to the central question of whether the American people are getting information and facts to which we are entitled in a free society, or whether we are being manipulated with half-truths, propaganda and straight-out lies.

What is ironic about the recent patronizing anti-Webb commentary by the Washington Post’s Jeff Leen – claiming that “an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof” – is that the Post was a prime salesman for the Iraq War in 2002 and 2003. And just what “proof” did the Post require for the “extraordinary claim” about Iraq hiding stockpiles of WMD, the chief selling point to the American people? Apparently nothing more than “jingoism,” the beating of war drums and empty assurances from the Bush administration’s neocons.

As journalist Michael Massing pointed out in February 2004 – after the U.S. invasion force failed to find the promised stockpiles – “‘Iraq’s Arsenal Was Only on Paper,’ declared a recent headline in The Washington Post.”

But Leen’s commentary in response to “Kill the Messenger” was just the latest example of the mainstream press covering its own tracks for its failure to pursue the Contra-cocaine scandal and for its complicity in destroying Gary Webb.

It’s now clear that the CIA has long been trying to fend off the reality of the Contra-cocaine scandal, often with the help of what a newly released CIA report described as its “productive relations with journalists.”

Americans need to know about such “dark alliances,” the title that Webb gave his original series at the San Jose Mercury News and later his book. This posting is about two such “dark alliances”: 1) The Contra-cocaine scandal that surfaced in 1985 when then Associated Press colleagues Robert Parry and Brian Barger first broke the news. 2) The concerted effort by U.S. major news media — specifically, the New York Times, Los Angeles Times and Washington Post – to not only disparage the scandal but also discredit investigative reporter Gary Webb who, in 1996, revived the story by explaining the Contra cocaine’s impact on U.S. cities in the 1980s.

‘Just Say No’

Webb’s revelations, of course, flew in the face of the conventional wisdom that President Ronald Reagan was a stern enemy of drugs and a fierce threat to drug traffickers. On Oct. 27, 1986, Reagan budgeted $1.7 billion for the drug war and federalized Rockefeller law-style mandatory-minimum sentences. The message was: “Just say no.”

It also turned out that the CIA’s “productive relations with journalists” proved so strong that it didn’t even seem to matter when official government investigations confirmed key facts about the Contra-cocaine scandal.

For instance, Sen. John Kerry chaired a 2 ½-year investigation of the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations that reported in 1989: “It is clear that individuals who provided support for the Contras were involved in drug trafficking … and elements of the Contras themselves knowingly received financial and material assistance from drug traffickers.”

Commenting on Kerry’s investigation and the major U.S. media’s response, journalism professor Jeff Cohen wrote: “Contra drug dealing was tolerated in the U.S. frenzy to overthrow Nicaragua’s leftwing Sandinista government. Kerry’s work was ignored or attacked in big media — Newsweek labeled him a ‘randy conspiracy buff.’ ”

With Kerry and his investigation dismissed as irrelevant by the big newspapers, the scandal remained largely suppressed for the next seven years until Webb revived it in 1996.

Webb (1955-2004) was an investigative journalist whose awards included a Pulitzer in 1990, as part of a team at the San Jose Mercury News, and at least four other major prizes for his solo work. Webb tried to reveal the impact that some of the cocaine that came through the Nicaraguan Contra pipeline had on American cities, saying:

“It’s not a situation where the government or the CIA sat down and said okay, let’s invent crack and sell it in black neighborhoods and let’s decimate black America. It was a situation where we need money for a covert operation. The quickest way to raise it is to sell cocaine and you guys go sell it somewhere. We don’t want to know anything about it. And you had this bad luck of them doing it right around the time people were figuring out how to make crack.”

A Sad But True Tale

“This, sadly, is a true story,” Webb wrote in his 1999 book, Dark Alliance. It is a story now told in the Hollywood film, “Kill the Messenger,” based on the book of the same name by Nick Schou and Webb’s Dark Alliance.

The story begins with Webb’s 1996 series “Dark Alliance” in California’s San Jose Mercury News. Webb investigated and told how for a better part of a decade, in a “wildly successful conspiracy,” a San Francisco Bay area drug ring sold tons of cocaine to Los Angeles street gangs and funneled millions of dollars in drug profits from those sales to the CIA-backed Nicaraguan Contras.

For his investigation, Webb drew from newly declassified documents, newly released undercover DEA audio and videotapes, federal court testimony, and interviews, and he demonstrated how the federal government knowingly allowed massive amounts of drugs and money to change hands at the expense of U.S. communities.

The “Dark Alliance” Mercury News series “might have vanished without a trace had the paper not chosen this story to create a splash for its website, complete with graphics and links to original source documents,” wrote Dan Simon, editor of Webb’s book and publisher of Seven Stories Press.

“It became, arguably, the first big Internet news story, with as many as 1.3 million hits on a single day. Talk radio picked it up off the Internet, and citizens’ groups and media watchdogs soon followed. The CIA launched its own internal investigation. Gary’s star had never shone more brightly…

“The mainstream print media was ominously silent until October and November 1996,” Simon continued, “when The New York Times, The Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times all finally picked up the story. But instead of launching their own investigations into whether the CIA had shielded drug traffickers, these papers went after Gary’s reporting, although they ‘could not find a single significant factual error,’ as Gary’s then-editor at The Mercury News, Jerry Ceppos, would write in an internal memo.

“But after that, the series was described frequently as ‘discredited.’ Soon the story and Gary himself were spoiled goods. Gary’s editor switched sides and penned an apologia distancing the paper from the series. Gary was forced out of his job, even though the body of evidence supporting Gary’s account was actually growing. Two years later, the CIA’s internal investigation would prove to be a vindication of Gary’s work.”

African-American Outrage

There was also an important social and political dimension to Webb’s revelations. “The investigative series sparked protests in African-American and congressional probes,” noted Democracy Now! “It also provoked a fierce reaction from the media establishment, which denounced the series. The Los Angeles Times alone assigned 17 reporters to probe Webb’s report and his personal life.

“Recently declassified CIA files show the agency used a ‘a ground base of already productive relations with journalists [at other newspapers]’ to counter what it called ‘a genuine public relations crisis.’ …

“Following the controversy, the San Jose Mercury News demoted Webb. He then resigned and pushed his investigation even further in his book, Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion.

“The CIA’s inspector general later corroborated Webb’s key findings, but, by then, his career was wrecked. The newspapers that denounced Webb largely ignored the CIA’s own report — it was released in 1998 amid the scandal over President Bill Clinton’s affair with Monica Lewinsky.”

“The second CIA report not only vindicates me,” wrote Gary Webb to a fellow journalist in July 24, 1998, “but all the other reporters and activists who have been trying to bring this to the public’s attention for the last 13 years. It also proves that, once again, the CIA lied to the American public and was assisted in this effort by our national news media, which denigrated anyone who challenged the official denials.”

Rep. Maxine Waters, D-California, an outspoken member of the Congressional Black Caucus, recalled that “The night that I read [Webb’s] ‘Dark Alliance’ series, I was so alarmed, that I literally sat straight up in bed, poring over every word. I reflected on the many meetings I attended throughout South Central Los Angeles during the 1980s, when I constantly asked, ‘Where are all the drugs coming from?’ I asked myself that night whether it was possible for such a vast amount of drugs to be smuggled into any district under the noses of the community leaders, police, sheriff’s department, FBI, DEA and other law enforcement agencies…

“The time I spent investigating the allegations of the ‘Dark Alliance’ series led me to the undeniable conclusion that the CIA, DEA, DIA, and FBI knew about drug trafficking in South Central Los Angeles. They were either part of the trafficking or turned a blind eye to it, an effort to fund the Contra war and that the drug money was used by both sides…

“It may take time, but I am convinced that history is going to record that Gary Webb wrote the truth. The establishment refused to give Gary Webb the credit that he deserved. They teamed up in an effort to destroy the story — and very nearly succeeded. … We will not let this story end until the naysayers and opponents are forced to apologize for their reckless and irresponsible attacks on Gary Webb.”

A Disgraceful Episode

Charles P. Pierce, a political writer for Esquire.com, said: “Of all the disgraceful episodes regarding the press and the Reagan administration, the discrediting of Gary Webb was probably the worst, given the fact that so much of the elite press was complicit in what was done to him.”

But Webb’s brave reporting had a lasting historical impact because it finally forced the Central Intelligence Agency to conduct a serious investigation of the Contra-cocaine problem and what the CIA knew about the scandal and what actions the agency took or didn’t take.

“[CIA Inspector General Frederick] Hitz completed his investigation in mid-1998 and the second volume of his two-volume investigation was published on Oct. 8, 1998. In the report, Hitz identified more than 50 Contras and Contra-related entities implicated in the drug trade. He also detailed how the Reagan administration had protected these drug operations and frustrated federal investigations throughout the 1980s,” reported journalist Robert Parry.

Andrew Hehir of Salon.com wrote: “Here’s the important thing to say about Webb’s big story: In general terms, and in most of its specifics, it was true. Virtually no one would deny that today; congressional commissions, internal CIA investigations and scholarly articles by historians have reached similar conclusions, shrouded in more lawyerly or diplomatic language.

“You can say that the CIA was apparently complicit in drug-dealing but not directly involved; you can say that the agency ‘turned a blind eye’ to evidence that smuggling revenue was being used to fund the Contras; you can say that ‘the CIA knew or should have known that some of its allies were accused of being in the drug business,’ in the exceedingly careful phrasing of New York Times media reporter David Carr.

“If the tone of Webb’s reporting was sometimes inflammatory, what he said happened pretty much happened. Webb never stated or implied that the CIA had deliberately imported crack cocaine into African-American neighborhoods; that construction or interpretation came later, from other people.”

Filmmaker Marc Levin noted at HuffingtonPost, “The idea that the CIA works with drug traffickers and other criminals and sometimes facilitates their operations and protects them as assets in return for their help in defeating our enemies (i.e. Communists during the Cold War and now Islamic fundamentalists) is not ‘an extraordinary claim.’ It’s a fact.”

See the Movie

I believe each one of us can do something of value: we can go see the film, “Kill the Messenger,” encourage others to do so, read and share the references in the “recommended reading” list below among others and come to our own conclusions.

This issue is not only about a movie and what it reveals, but it is about what Alternet’s Don Hazen states has become a basic tenet of American politics: “that corporate power rules the roost. Nothing significant that will become law in America if corporate power, profits, global competitive advantage, military might, national security and privatization are in any significant way threatened.”

DemocracyNow’s Amy Goodman added: “That’s really what will save us, is when we really know what’s going on, not filtered through the lens or the microphone of the corporation.”

In 2004, rejected by his profession, essentially unemployable, impoverished, divorced, alone, and facing eviction, the 49-year-old Webb prepared for his own cremation and sent suicide notes to family members. He was found dead at his Sacramento County, California home with two gunshot wounds to his head, an apparent suicide.

“Now when I reread the opening sentence of the ‘Dark Alliance’ series,” writes book editor Dan Simon, “I realize Gary had found the big story, the one about the betrayal of a people by its own government. A monumental sadness remains.”

Simon added, “The alternative media, to its credit, honored Gary. But the community of his peers in corporate journalism never again embraced him. He could never quite get over their betrayal. When you are an investigative reporter armed with the truth, the gun often fires backwards.”

America is not what we think it is.

Beverly Bandler’s public affairs career spans some 40 years. Her credentials include serving as president of the state-level League of Women Voters of the Virgin Islands and extensive public education efforts in the Washington, D.C. area for 16 years. She writes from Mexico.

VIDEOS

“Kill the Messenger” Resurrects Gary Webb, Journalist Maligned for Exposing CIA Ties to Crack Trade” on Democracy Now! The video includes an extended clip from the 2012 documentary “Shadows of Liberty” that talks about how freedom of the press in the United States is eroding under increasing corporate control.

“Gary Webb: In his own words.” Anthony Lappé and Stephen Marshal. Guerrilla News Network, 2004. https://archive.org/details/Gary_Webb

“Kill the Messenger.” http://www.focusfeatures.com/kill_the_messenger/

“Shadows of Liberty.” Jean-Philippe Tremblay, director. http://shadowsofliberty.org/ http://shadowsofliberty.org/the-film/

“CIA: America’s Secret Warriors.” (1997). Directed by Marc Levin. The series included a brief history examining the allegations that the agency worked with drug traffickers at the end of World War 2 in Sicily, the KMT in China, the Hmong tribesmen using Air America during the Vietnam war, the various anti-communist insurgents in Latin America and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the late ’70s and ’80s.

“Freeway: Crack in the System.” Documentary by Marc Levin. October 2014. Trailer:


Sources and Recommended Reading

Baldwin, Sam and Daniel Luzer. “The Altered States of America.” What a long, strange trip it’s been: a drug war timeline.” MotherJones, 2009-07. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/07/altered-states-america

Bowden, Charles. “The Pariah.” Esquire, 2012-09-12. http://www.esquire.com/features/pariah-gary-webb-0998

Brian Barger and Robert Parry. “Reports Link Nicaraguan Rebels to Cocaine Trafficking.” Associated Press, 1985-12-20. http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1985/Reports-Link-Nicaraguan-Rebels-to-Cocaine-Trafficking/id-c69eaf370de9884f907a39efd90337d3

Bernstein, Carl. “The CIA and the Media.” Rolling Stone, October 20, 1977. http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

Blum, William. “The Real Drug Lords: A brief history of CIA involvement in the Drug Trade.” Global Research, 2008-08-31. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-real-drug-lords-a-brief-history-of-cia-involvement-in-the-drug-trade/10013

Blum, William and Peter Scott. Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II. Common Courage Press (July 1995).

Central Intelligence Agency. Directorate of Intelligence. “CIA Public Affairs and the Drug Conspiracy Story.” Managing a Nightmare. “In the world of public relations, as in war avoiding a rout in the face of hostile multitudes can be considered a success.” 2014-07-29. www.foia.cia.gov/…/DOC_0001372115.pdf

Cockburn, Alexander and Jeffrey St. Clair. Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press. Verso (November 17, 1999). “On March 16, 1998, the CIA’s Inspector General, Fred Hitz, finally let the cat out of the bag in an aside at a Congressional Hearing. Hitz told the US Reps that the CIA had maintained relationships with companies and individuals the Agency knew to be involved in the drug business. Even more astonishingly, Hitz revealed that back in 1982 the CIA had requested and received from Reagan’s Justice Department clearance not to report any knowledge it might have of drug-dealing by CIA assets. “With these two admissions, Hitz definitively sank decades of CIA denials, many of them under oath to Congress. Hitz’s admissions also made fools of some of the most prominent names in US journalism, and vindicated investigators andcritics of the Agency, ranging from Al McCoy to Senator John Kerry.”

Cohen, Jeff. “The Resurrection of Gary Webb: Will Hollywood Give Journalist Last Word Against CIA’s Media Apologists?” CommonDreams, 2014-10-06. http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/10/06/resurrection-gary-webb-will-hollywood-give-journalist-last-word-against-cias-media_______“R.I.P. Gary Webb — Unembedded Reporter.” CommonDreams, 2004-12-13. http://www.commondreams.org/views/2004/12/13/rip-gary-webb-unembedded-reporter

Davidson, Lawrence. “How the US Propaganda System Works.” ConsortiumNews, 2014-05-09. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/09/how-the-us-propaganda-system-works/

Democracy Now! Amy Goodman. “Inside the Dark Alliance: Gary Webb on the CIA, the Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion.” 2014-10-06. http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/10/6/inside_the_dark_alliance_gary_webb

Gilson, Dave, Michael Mechanic, Alex Park and AJ Vicens. “10 Fascinating Articles from the CIA’s Secret Employee Magazine.” MotherJones, 2014-09-19. http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/09/10-declassified-articles-cia-intelligence-journal

Grandin, Greg. “The New York Times Wants Gary Webb to Stay Dead.” The Nation, 2014-10-10. http://www.thenation.com/blog/181940/new-york-times-wants-gary-webb-stay-dead#

Grim, Ryan. “Kill The Messenger: How The Media Destroyed Gary Webb.” Huffington Post, 2014-10-10. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/10/kill-the-messenger_n_5962708.html

Grim, Ryan, Matt Sledge and Bart Ferner. “Key Figures in CIA–Crack Cocaine Scandal Begin to Come Forward. HuffingtonPost, 2014-10-10. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/10/gary-webb-dark-alliance_n_5961748.html

Hart, Peter. “A ‘Worthless and Whiny’ Attack on a Genuine Journalistic Hero.” Fair, 2014-10-21. http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/10/21/wash-post-webb/

Hazen. Don. “Apocalypse Now: Seriously, It Is Time for a Major Rethink About Liberal and Progressive Politics.” Alternet, 2014-10-25. http:/www.alternet.org/activism/apocalypse-now-seriously-it-time-major-rethink-about-liberal-and-progressive-politics

Hedges, Chris. The Movie that Completely Exposes the Myth of the ‘Free Press.” Kill the Messenger reveals the media’s subservience to power. Alternet, 2014-10-27. http://www.alternet.org/media/movie-completely-exposes-myth-free-press

_______“The Myth of the Free Press.” TruthDig, 2014-10-26. http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_myth_of_the_free_press_20141026

Hehir, Andrew. “From Gary Webb to James Risen: The struggle for the soul of journalism.” Two courageous reporters dug up dark government secrets. Only one was betrayed by his peers. Why did it happen? Salon, 2014-10-25. http://www.salon.com/2014/10/25/from_gary_webb_to_james_risen_the_struggle_for_the_soul_of_journalism/

Kornbluh, Peter. “The Storm over ‘Dark Alliance.’ ” Columbia Journalism Review, January/February 1997. http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/storm.htm

Kurtz, Howard. “The Post on WMDs: An Inside Story. Prewar Articles Questioning Threat Often Didn’t Make Front Page.” Washington Post, 2004-08-12. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58127-2004Aug11_4.html

Lee, Martin A. and Norman Solomon. Unreliable Sources: A Guide to Detecting Bias in the News Media. 1st ed. 1990. LGLA (January 13, 2013).

Leen, Jeff. “Gary Webb was no journalism hero, despite what ‘Kill the Messenger’ says.” Washington Post, 2014-10-17. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gary-webb-was-no-journalism-hero-despite-what-kill-the-messenger-says/2014/10/17/026b7560-53c9-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html See Hart 10-21 and Parry 10-18.

Lippmann, Walter and Charles Merz. “A Test of the News.” The New Republic, August 1920. “Their study came out as a forty-two page supplement to the New Republic in August 1920 and demonstrated that the Times’ coverage was neither unbiased nor accurate. They concluded that the paper’s news stories were not based on facts, but were “dominated by the hopes of the men who composed the news organizations.” The paper cited events that did not happen, atrocities that never took place, and reported no fewer than ninety-one times that theBolshevik regime was on the verge of collapse. “The news about Russia is a case of seeing not what was, but what men wished to see,” Lippmann and Merz charged. ‘The chief censor and the chief propagandist were hope and fear in the minds of reporters and editors.’ ”

Mackenzie, Angus. Secrets: The CIA’s War at Home.University of California Press; New Ed edition (April 22, 1999).

Marcy, William L. The politics of cocaine: how U.S. policy has created a thriving drug industry in Central and South America. Chicago Review Press. (2010).

Mackenzie, Angus. Secrets: The CIA’s War at Home. University of California Press; New Ed edition (April 22, 1999).

Massing, Michael. “Now They Tell Us.” New York Review of Books, 2004-02-26. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/feb/26/now-they-tell-us/

McCoy, Alfred W. The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade. Chicago Review Press; Revised edition (May 1, 2003). “The first book to prove CIA and U.S. government complicity in global drug trafficking…” Amazon reviewer: “A historical study of the opium and heroin trade and its political context, based on primary and secondary sources, including interviews with some of the key players of the developments in Indochina in the 1950s through 1970s.”

McGovern, Ray. “Truman’s True Warning on the CIA.” ConsortiumNews, 2013-12-22. http://consortiumnews.com/2013/12/22/trumans-true-warning-on-the-cia/

_______ “Break the CIA in Two.” ConsortiumNews, 2009-12-22. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/122209a.html

New York Times. Featured Subject: “The Dark Alliance Expose.” With Articles From the Archives of The New York Times. (9-21-1996 to 1-30-1998). http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/09/27/specials/cia.html

Parry, Robert. “How the Washington Press Turned Bad.” ConsortiumNews, 2014-10-28. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/28/how-the-washington-press-turned-bad/

_______“WPost’s Slimy Assault on Gary Webb.” Consortium News, 2014-10-18. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/18/wposts-slimy-assault-on-gary-webb/

_______“The Sordid Contra-Cocaine Saga.” ConsortiumNews, 2014-10-09. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/09/the-sordid-contra-cocaine-saga/ “If you ever wondered how the mainstream U.S. mediachanged from the hard-nosed Watergate press of the 1970s into the brown-nose MSM that swallowed the Iraq War lies, a key middle point was the Contra-cocaine scandal of the 1980s/1990s.”

_______ “NYT’s Belated Admission on Contra-Cocaine.” ConsortiumNews, 2014-10-04. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/04/nyts-belated-admission-on-contra-cocaine/

_______ “The CIA/MSM Contra-Cocaine Cover-up ConsortiumNews, 2014-09-26. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/26/the-ciamsm-contra-cocaine-cover-up/

_______ Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & ‘Project Truth.’ Media Consortium; 1 edition (July 1, 1999). Amazon reviewer: “This book is a real gem. It outlines a tale of both corruption and ideological mendacity within the White House, and of ignorance and unprofessionalism with the Directorate of Operations in the Central Intelligence Agency….The editors of the history of the Department of State have on several occasions complained, both publicly and privately, that an accurate history of the foreign relations of the United States of America cannot be written without more complete disclosure of our various covert operations.”

Pew Research Center. “Who Owns the News Media Database.” Project for Excellence in Journalism, 2012-06-26. http://www.journalism.org/commentary_backgrounder/who_owns_news_media_database_summary_findings?src=pp-footer

Pincus, Walter “Inspector: CIA kept Ties With Alleged Traffickers.” The Washington Post, 1998-03-17 A12.

Prouty, L. Fletcher (author). Jesse Ventura (foreword). The Secret Team: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World. Skyhorse Publishing; Second Edition edition (April 1, 2011). Prouty is controversial but it is a fact that he “was a retired colonel of the U.S. Air Force, served as the chief of special operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Kennedy years, and was directly in charge of the global system designed to provide military support for the clandestine activities of the CIA.” One Amazon reviewer writes: “This is an extremely important book. The proof of it is that even the official copy in the Library of Congress disappeared (!). Moreover, even after his death, the author continues to be the object of a smear campaign.”

Risen, James. Pay Any Price: Greed, Power, and Endless War. War corrupts. Endless war corrupts absolutely. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt (October 14, 2014).

______State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration. Free Press; First Edition edition (January 5, 2006)

_____ “C.I.A. Says It Used Nicaraguan Rebels Accused of Drug Tie.” New York Times, 1998-07-17. http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/17/world/cia-says-it-used-nicaraguan-rebels-accused-of-drug-tie.html

Schou, Nick. Kill the Messenger (Movie Tie-In Edition): How the CIA’s Crack-Cocaine Controversy Destroyed Journalist Gary Webb. Nation Books; Revised Edition edition (September 9, 2014).

_______“The truth in ’Dark Alliance.’ ” Los Angeles Times, 2006-08-18. http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/18/opinion/oe-schou18

Scott, Peter Dale. American War Machine: Deep Politics, the CIA Global Drug Connection, and the Road to Afghanistan (War and Peace Library). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers; 1St Edition edition (November 16, 2010).

Solomon, Norman. War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death. Wiley (June 1, 2006).

Spartacus Educational. “Walter Pincus.” http://spartacus-educational.com/MDpincus.htm “Walter Pincus also led the attack on Gary Webb when he published his series of articles on CIA involvement with the Contras and the drug industry. After Dark Alliance was published Pincus wrote: “‘Washington Post investigation into Ross, Blandon, Meneses, and the U.S. cocaine market in the 1980s found the available information does not support the conclusion that the CIA-backed contras – or Nicaraguans in general – played a major role in the emergence of crack as anarcotic in widespread use across the United States. “The Washington Post refused to publish Webb’s letters when he attempted to defend his views on the CIA. This included information that Pincus had been recruited by the CIA when he was at Yale University in order to spy on student groups at several international youth conferences in the 1950s. Later, Geneva Overholser, the Washington Post ombudsman, criticized Pincus and other reporters working for the newspaper: ‘A principal responsibility of the press is to protect the people from government excesses. The Washington Post (among others) showed more energy for protecting the CIA from someone else’s journalistic excesses.’ “When Gary Webb committed suicide, French journalist, Paul Moreira, made a television documentary for France’s Canal Plus. He interviewed Pincus and asked him why in October, 1998, he had not reported on the CIA’sinspector general report admitting the agency worked with drug dealers throughout the 1980s. Pincus was unable to explain why he and other mainstream journalists completely ignored this report that helped to support Webb’s case against the CIA.”

Umansky, Eric. “Total Coverage: The CIA, Contras, and Drugs.” The CIA-coke connection was detailed long before Dark Alliance — and the evidence keepscoming. Mother Jones, 1998-08-25. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1998/08/total-coverage-cia-contras-and-drugs

Webb, Gary. Dark Alliance: Movie Tie-In Edition: The CIA, the Contras, and the Cocaine Explosion. Seven Stories Press; Reprint edition (September 30, 2014). 1st ed. June 1999.

Wikipedia. “CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US _______“Gary Webb.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb _______Kerry Committee Report. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Committee_report#cite_note-white-2

SOURCE: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/11/02/gary-webb-and-media-manipulation/

Thank goodness for ConsortiumNews, wot?

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
349. +1, thank you for that. One has to wonder about the current heroin epidemic.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:44 AM
Jul 2015

When I was growing up in the drug filled 60s and 70s we never saw heroin in rural Ohio. Now it is everywhere.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
363. And the meth epidemic.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:00 PM
Jul 2015

Not that it's turned into something heroic, a modern day Jesse James kind of meme, or anything dramatic.



Contra-Cocaine: Evidence of Premeditation

By Robert Parry
ConsortiumNews, June 1, 1998

New evidence, now in the public record, strongly suggests that the Reagan administration's tolerance of drug trafficking by the Nicaraguan contras and other clients in the 1980s was premeditated.

With almost no notice in the national press, a 1982 letter was introduced into the Congressional Record revealing how CIA Director William J. Casey secretly engineered an exemption sparing the CIA from a legal requirement to report on drug smuggling by agency assets.

The exemption was granted by Attorney General William French Smith on Feb. 11, 1982, only two months after President Reagan authorized covert CIA support for the Nicaraguan contra army and some eight months before the first known documentary evidence revealing that the contras had started collaborating with drug traffickers.

The exemption suggests that the CIA's tolerance of illicit drug smuggling by its clients during the 1980s was official policy anticipated from the outset, not just an unintended consequence followed by an ad hoc cover-up.

Before the letter's release, the documentary evidence only supported the allegation that Ronald Reagan's CIA concealed drug trafficking by the contras and other intelligence assets in Latin America. The CIA's inspector general Frederick P. Hitz confirmed that long-held suspicion in an investigative report issued on Jan. 29, 1998.

Laundry List

But the newly released letter, placed into the Congressional Record by Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., on May 7, establishes that Casey foresaw the legal dilemma which the CIA would encounter should federal law require it to report on illicit narcotics smuggling by its agents. The narcotics exemption is especially noteworthy in contrast to the laundry list of crimes which the CIA was required to disclose.

Under Justice Department regulations, "reportable offenses" included assault, homicide, kidnapping, Neutrality Act violations, communication of classified data, illegal immigration, bribery, obstruction of justice, possession of explosives, election contributions, possession of firearms, illegal wiretapping, visa violations and perjury.

Yet, despite reporting requirements for many less serious offenses, Casey fought a bureaucratic battle in early 1982 to exempt the CIA from, as Smith wrote, "the need to add narcotics violations to the list of reportable non-employee crimes."

In his letter, Smith noted that the law provides that "when requested by the Attorney General, it shall be the duty of any agency or instrumentality of the Federal Government to furnish assistance to him for carrying out his functions under" the Controlled Substances Act.

But Smith agreed that "in view of the fine cooperation the Drug Enforcement Administration has received from CIA, no formal requirement regarding the reporting of narcotics violations has been included in these procedures." [At the time of Smith's letter, Kenneth Starr was a counselor in the attorney general's office, although it is not clear whether Starr had any input into the exemption.]

On March 2, 1982, Casey thanked Smith for the exemption. "I am pleased that these procedures, which I believe strike the proper balance between enforcement of the law and protection of intelligence sources and methods, will now be forwarded to other agencies covered by them for signing by the heads of the agencies," Casey wrote.

In the years that followed, "protection of intelligence sources and methods" apparently became the catch-all excuse for the CIA's tolerance of South American cocaine smugglers using the contra war as cover. Though precise volume estimates are impossible, the contra-connected drug pipeline clearly pumped tons of cocaine into the United States during the early-to-mid 1980s.

Contra Umbrella

Some contra defenders have argued that the anti-Sandinista armies in Honduras and Costa Rica were not the primary beneficiaries of the narcotics smuggling, that most of the profits probably went to drug lords with few political interests. Still, over the past 15 years, substantial evidence has surfaced revealing that many drug smugglers scurried under the contra umbrella. They presumably understood that the Reagan administration would be loath to expose its pet covert action to negative publicity and possibly even to criminal prosecution.

According to the accumulated evidence, Bolivia's "cocaine coup" government of 1980-82 was the first in line filling the contra drug pipeline. But other contra-connected drug operations soon followed, including the Medellin cartel, the Panamanian government, the Honduran military and Miami-based anti-Castro Cubans. The contra-connected cocaine also moved through transshipment points in Costa Rica and El Salvador. [For details, see Robert Parry's Lost History; Cocaine Politics by Peter Dale Scott and Jonathan Marshall; or Gary Webb's forthcoming book, Dark Alliance.]

Less clear is exactly what the U.S. government knew about the contra-connected drug trafficking and when. Reagan authorized CIA support for the contra army in mid-December 1981. But the first publicly known case of contra cocaine shipments appeared in government files in an Oct. 22, 1982, cable from the CIA's Directorate of Operations.

The cable passed on word that U.S. law enforcement agencies were aware of "links between (a U.S. religious organization) and two Nicaraguan counter-revolutionary groups [which] involve an exchange in (the United States) of narcotics for arms." The material in parentheses was inserted by the CIA as part of its declassification of the cable. The name of the religious group remains secret.

Over the next several years, the CIA learned of other suspected links between the contras and drug trafficking. In 1984, the CIA even intervened with the Justice Department to block a criminal investigation into a suspected contra role in a San Francisco-based drug ring, according to Hitz's report.

In December 1985, Brian Barger and I wrote the first news article disclosing that virtually every Nicaraguan contra group had links to drug trafficking. In that Associated Press dispatch, we noted that the CIA knew of at least one case of cocaine profits filtering into the contra war effort, but that DEA officials in Washington claimed they had never been told of any contra tie-in. The Casey exemption explains why that was possible.

After the AP story ran, the Reagan administration attacked it as unfounded and the article was largely ignored by the rest of the Washington press corps. But it did help spark an investigation by Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., who over the next two years amassed substantial evidence of cocaine smuggling in and around the contra war. Still, the Reagan and Bush administrations continued to disparage Kerry's probe and its many witnesses.

Through the end of the decade, the mainstream Washington media also denigrated the allegations. In April 1989, when Kerry released a lengthy report detailing multiple examples of how the contra war supplied cover for major drug trafficking operations, the nation's most prestigious newspapers -- The New York Times, The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times -- published only brief, dismissive accounts.

With the end of the contra war in 1990, the controversy faded further into the historical recesses. The Clinton administration quietly rescinded Casey's narcotics exemption in 1995.

Crack Epidemic

The contra-cocaine issue arose again in 1996 with an investigative series by Gary Webb of the San Jose Mercury-News. Those stories traced how one of the contra drug conduits helped fuel the crack epidemic in Los Angeles.

In response, the major newspapers again rallied to the CIA's defense. They denounced the series as overblown, although finally acknowledging that the allegations raised during the 1980s were true. Webb's series also prompted a new investigation by the CIA's inspector general.

In the first volume of his investigative report, Hitz admitted the CIA knew early on about contra drug trafficking and covered it up. The report's second volume reportedly puts the CIA in even a worse light.

The CIA press office acknowledges that the second volume has been completed, but adds that there is no timetable for releasing a declassified version. "They'll only let it out if they're pressured," commented one U.S. official.

But the CIA apparently is counting on continued disinterest by the national press as a sign that there is no need to revisit the issue. That assessment was bolstered on May 7 when Waters introduced the Casey-Smith letters into the Congressional Record and drew very little media interest in the damaging admissions.

For her part, Waters stated that the Casey-Smith arrangement "allowed some of the biggest drug lords in the world to operate without fear that the CIA would be required to report their activities to the DEA and other law enforcement agencies. ... These damning memorandums ... are further evidence of a shocking official policy that allowed the drug cartels to operate through the CIA-led contra covert operations in Central America."

Though Waters's comments focused on the contra war, Casey's narcotics exemption could have had other CIA covert operations in mind. In the early 1980s, the CIA-backed Afghan mujahedeen also were implicated as major heroin traffickers in the Near East.

But whatever the genesis of the drug exemption, the Casey-Smith exchange of letters stands as important historical evidence bolstering the long-denied allegations of CIA complicity in drug trafficking. Worse yet, the documents are evidence of premeditation.

Copyright (c) 1998

SOURCE: https://consortiumnews.com/archive/crack12.html



Bottom Line: ConsortiumNews defended Gary Webb simply for telling the truth. Mainstream media, not at all -- even when they were proven wrong.

Gee. That sounds familiar.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
399. So much sounds so familiar, so often, that it has become deja vu all over again, again.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:28 PM
Jul 2015
 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
162. I sometimes wonder if this is performance art
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:06 PM
Jul 2015

Or do you really believe all the shit that you post?

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
165. I have wondered that myself.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:09 PM
Jul 2015

But I think this mocking OP clearly shows the posters agenda and beliefs.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
167. I dunno.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:13 PM
Jul 2015

I'm convinced the poster is actually an experimental improv troup made up of 8 fish. It's all there, plain to see.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
166. No, I post because I want to preserve Democracy.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:12 PM
Jul 2015

You know, where the People run the government.

Now that you mention it, why do you post? Do you believe all the shit you post?

Scientists Find That Conspiracy Theorists Will Pretty Much Believe Anything You Tell Them

I don't know for a fact, but I think Cass Sunstein approves of you.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
168. I believe in science
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:16 PM
Jul 2015

And provable fact. Not conjecture, wild conspiracy theories, bogeymen, or anything that white supremacists say.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
175. So, you can't show where I'm wrong.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:45 PM
Jul 2015

You can only link back to this thread.

Thank you for confirming what I wrote.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
179. This thread is a prime example.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:55 PM
Jul 2015

I can't help it if you can't read/understand what even yourself wrote and how it applies.

But hey, I'm just a paid shill for the BFEE or something. Boo!

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
181. You know he is going to now use that against you in the future as you admitting to being a paid
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:02 PM
Jul 2015

shill for the BFEE.

I know you were being sarcastic, but he does stuff like that to 'win' arguments.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
182. Yeah, I've seen the barage against you for appearing on Fox News...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:09 PM
Jul 2015

And only a cursory google search would reveal that you also appeared on Countdown, The Daily Show, and even certain DUer's favorite: RT.

And he's obviously lost the argument, even if he can't see it, but I'm still convinced that he is really an experimental improv troupe made up of eight fish.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
189. Show where I do that to '''win' arguments,'' stevenleser.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:27 PM
Jul 2015

In this argument, I showed you how the CIA manipulates the news media:



Correspondence and collusion between the New York Times and the CIA

Mark Mazzetti's emails with the CIA expose the degradation of journalism that has lost the imperative to be a check to power

Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 29 August 2012 14.58 EDT

EXCERPT...

But what is news in this disclosure are the newly released emails between Mark Mazzetti, the New York Times's national security and intelligence reporter, and CIA spokeswoman Marie Harf. The CIA had evidently heard that Maureen Dowd was planning to write a column on the CIA's role in pumping the film-makers with information about the Bin Laden raid in order to boost Obama's re-election chances, and was apparently worried about how Dowd's column would reflect on them. On 5 August 2011 (a Friday night), Harf wrote an email to Mazzetti with the subject line: "Any word??", suggesting, obviously, that she and Mazzetti had already discussed Dowd's impending column and she was expecting an update from the NYT reporter.

SNIP...

Even more amazing is the reaction of the newspaper's managing editor, Dean Baquet, to these revelations, as reported by Politico's Dylan Byers:

"New York Times Managing Editor Dean Baquet called POLITICO to explain the situation, but provided little clarity, saying he could not go into detail on the issue because it was an intelligence matter.



CONTINUED with LINKS...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/29/correspondence-collusion-new-york-times-cia

PS: I think I told you about him before. If so, it still stands.

PPS: To learn more about how our nation's press devolved to the point where it now goes along with scripted press conferences, read "On Bended Knee: The Press and the Reagan Presidency" by Mark Hertsgaard. There are a few more studies since then, but that work provides an excellent basis for developing a more sophisticated understanding.




Those are the facts. Sad more than funny: you didn't see then how you "lost" the argument.
 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
204. Hey, you're just making me money here...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:42 PM
Jul 2015

The BFEE pays well. And we're watching you Octafish. We're watching you closely.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
214. Speaking of which...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:07 PM
Jul 2015

Have you gotten reimbursed for June's expenses yet?
I know Audrey in accounting is on vacation, but I thought Charlie was going to handle it.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
237. No, but does that surprise you?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:45 AM
Jul 2015

Charlie is about the worst accountant I've ever seen. But, he's the boss' son-in-law, so what're ya gonna do?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
390. Bush's 'Perception Management' Plan
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:58 PM
Jul 2015

By Robert Parry
Consortiumnews.com, November 18, 2004

George W. Bush has been criticized for disdaining fact in favor of faith in his own instincts. But he is savvy about the dangers that information can present to his authority over the government and the American people.

That is why the first priority of his second term has been the elimination of the few government sources of information that could challenge the images he wants to project to the public. Bush doesn’t want the State Department or the Central Intelligence Agency portraying his Iraq and other foreign policies as abject failures or reckless adventures.

So, by attacking these remaining pockets of analytical resistance, Bush is moving to ensure that his administration can keep much of the U.S. population seeing a near-empty cup as almost entirely full, a concept known in the intelligence world as “perception management.”

On a personal level, Bush appears to have found in his electoral victory a validation of his public-relations strategy of casting his foreign policy as a black-and-white war between good and evil. In this tough-talking approach, Bush has been helped immeasurably by the powerful conservative news media, ranging from AM talk radio to Fox News, from right-wing newspaper columnists to Internet bloggers.

Indeed, it is impossible to understand why Americans have grown so detached from reality without appreciating the combined impact of this conservative media – built over the past quarter century – and Bush’s personal insistence on loyalty over almost all other values. These two factors have made the United States a kind of ultimate test for the Orwellian intelligence theories of “perception management.”

Controlling Opinions

“Perception management” – also known as “public diplomacy” – is a propaganda strategy for controlling how a target population views political events. Refined by intelligence services as they tried to manipulate foreign populations, the practice eventually seeped into domestic U.S. politics as a way to manipulate post-Vietnam-War-era public opinion.

CONTINUED...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/2004/111804.html

So that's why this thread is awesome.


PS: That was way before the great Bankster Bailout of '08. Imagine what might have been saved if The New York Times or ABCNNBCBSFoxNutworks broadcast it?


Octafish

(55,745 posts)
456. How so? Can you be more ambiguous? TIA!
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 04:01 PM
Jul 2015

As one of those positive, feel good, human motivation seminar kind of guys, I believe you believe what you posted in your DU3 Journal:

Erich Fromm said "the essence of the authoritarian personality is an inability: the inability to rely on one’s self, to be independent, to put it in other words: to endure freedom."


Like that.
 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
478. Were you sincere in offering your apology?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:08 PM
Jul 2015

If so, then on behalf of Rev. Niemöller I forgive you the inappropriate and unnecessary use of fascist hyperbole. We all screw up occasionally.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
457. Are you really puzzled or are you using that as a rhetorical device?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 04:08 PM
Jul 2015

If the latter, you make a point that's banal: ConsortiumNews is still operational.

If the former, you must have missed the Tag Team attacks above on this thread and on just about every post referring to ConsortiumNews' coverage of the war in Ukraine.





Guiding Obama into Global Make-Believe

Exclusive: The Orwellian concept of “information warfare” holds that propaganda can break down enemies and decide geopolitical outcomes, a strategy that has taken hold of the U.S. government’s approach to international crises, especially the Ukraine showdown, as ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern explains.

By Ray McGovern
ConsortiumNews, March 14, 2015

CIA Director John Brennan told TV host Charlie Rose on Friday that, on assuming office, President Barack Obama “did not have a good deal of experience” in intelligence-related matters, adding – with remarkable condescension – that now “he has gone to school and understands the complexities.”

If that’s the case, I would strongly suggest that Obama switch schools. Judging from his foreign policy team’s inept and increasingly dangerous actions regarding Ukraine and the endless stream of dubious State Department and senior military cry-wolf accusations of a Russian “invasion,” Obama might be forgiven for being confused by the “complexities.”

He should not be forgiven, though, if he remains too timid to bench his current foreign policy team and find more substantively qualified, trustworthy advisers without axes to grind. He is, after all, President. Has he no managerial skill … no guts?

This U.S. pattern of exaggeration – making scary claims about Ukraine without releasing supporting evidence – has even begun to erode the unity of the NATO alliance where Germany, in particular, is openly criticizing the Obama administration’s heavy-handed use of propaganda in its “information warfare” against Russia.

The German magazine Der Spiegel has just published a highly unusual article critical of the NATO military commander, Air Force General Philip Breedlove, entitled “Breedlove’s Bellicosity: Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine.”

It is becoming clearer day by day that the Germans are losing patience with unsupported and alarmist U.S. statements on Ukraine, particularly in the current delicate period when a fledgling ceasefire in eastern Ukraine seems to be holding tenuously.

The Spiegel story was sourced to German officials who say Breedlove and his breed are making stuff up, adding that the BND (the CIA equivalent in Germany) “did not share” Breedlove’s extreme assessment of Russian actions. Spiegel continued:

“For months now, many in the Chancellery simply shake their heads each time NATO, under Breedlove’s leadership, goes public with striking announcements about Russian troop or tank movements. … False claims and exaggerated accounts, warned a top German official during a recent meeting on Ukraine, have put NATO — and by extension, the entire West — in danger of losing its credibility.”

Scaring the Europeans

The Obama administration’s erratic and bellicose approach to Ukraine caused German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande to take matters into their own hands in February to press for a ceasefire and an agreement on how to resolve the crisis politically, rather than following the U.S. strategy of having the regime in Kiev escalate its “anti-terrorist operation” against ethnic Russian rebels in the east who are supported by Moscow.

Fearing the conflict was spinning out of control – with the prospects of a showdown between nuclear-armed Russia and the United States on Russia’s border – Merkel traveled to the White House on Feb. 9 seeking assurances from President Obama that he would not fall in line behind his tough-talking aides and members of Congress who want advanced weaponry for Ukraine.

Though Obama reportedly assured Merkel that he would resist the pressure, he continues to keep slip-sliding into line behind the war hawks and letting his subordinates feed the propaganda fires that could lead to a more dangerous war, especially Gen. Breedlove and Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, a former adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney.

In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on March 4, 2015, Nuland presented her usual black-and-white depiction of the Ukrainian civil war, claiming Russia had “manufactured a conflict controlled by the Kremlin, fueled by Russian tanks and heavy equipment.” She added that Crimea and eastern Ukraine live under a “Reign of Terror.”

Of course, the core problem with how Nuland and pretty much the entire U.S. establishment present the Ukraine crisis is that they ignore how it got started. Nuland, Sen. John McCain and other U.S. officials egged on western Ukrainians to destabilize and overthrow the elected President Viktor Yanukovych, whose political base was in the south and east, including Crimea.

The coup opened historic fissures in this deeply divided country where hatreds between the more European-oriented west and the ethnic Russian east go back many generations, including the unspeakable slaughter during World War II when some western Ukrainians joined with the Nazis to fight the Red Army and exterminate Jews and other minorities.

Despite the U.S. claims over the past year about unprovoked “Russian aggression,” Russian President Vladimir Putin was not the instigator of the conflict, but rather he was reacting to a violent “regime change” on his border and to Russian fears that NATO would seize the historic Russian naval base at Sevastopol in Crimea.

But Nuland and other neocon hardliners have never been interested in a nuanced presentation of reality. Instead, they have treated Ukraine as if it were a testing ground for the latest techniques in psychological or information warfare, although the propaganda is mostly aimed at the U.S. and European publics, getting them ready for more war.

Mocking Merkel

As for Merkel and her peace efforts, Nuland was overheard during a behind-closed-doors meeting of U.S. officials at a security conference in Munich last month disparaging the German chancellor’s initiative, calling it “Merkel’s Moscow thing,” according to Bild, a German newspaper, citing unnamed sources.

Another U.S. official went even further, the report said, calling it the Europeans’ “Moscow bullshit.”

The tough talk behind the soundproof doors at a conference room in the luxurious Bayerischer Hof hotel seemed to get the American officials, both diplomats and members of Congress, worked into a lather, according to the Bild account.

Nuland suggested that Merkel and Hollande cared only about the practical impact of the Ukrainian war on bread-and-butter issues of Europe: “They’re afraid of damage to their economy, counter-sanctions from Russia.”

Another U.S. politician was heard adding: “It’s painful to see that our NATO partners are getting cold feet” – with particular vitriol directed toward German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen as “defeatist” because she supposedly no longer believed in a Kiev victory.

Sen. McCain talked himself into a rage, declaring “History shows us that dictators always take more, whenever you let them. They can’t be brought back from their brutal behavior when you fly to Moscow to them, just like someone once flew to this city,” Munich, a reference to British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain’s “appeasement” of Adolf Hitler.

According to the Bild story, Nuland laid out a strategy of countering Merkel’s diplomacy by using strident language to frame the Ukraine crisis in a way that stops the Europeans from backing down. “We can fight against the Europeans, we can fight with rhetoric against them,” Nuland reportedly said.

NATO Commander Breedlove was quoted as saying the idea of funneling more weapons to the Kiev government was “to raise the battlefield cost for Putin, to slow down the whole problem, so sanctions and other measures can take hold.”

Nuland interjected to the U.S. politicians present that “I’d strongly urge you to use the phrase ‘defensive systems’ that we would deliver to oppose Putin’s ‘offensive systems.’” But Breedlove left little doubt that these “defensive” weapons would help the Ukrainian government pursue its military objectives by enabling more effective concentration of fire.

“Russian artillery is by far what kills most Ukrainian soldiers, so a system is needed that can localize the source of fire and repress it,” Breedlove reportedly said. “I won’t talk about any anti-tank rockets, but we are seeing massive supply convoys from Russia into Ukraine. The Ukrainians need the capability to shut off this transport. And then I would add some small tactical drones.”

Nuland’s Rhetoric

Before the Ukraine coup in February 2014, Nuland was overheard in a phone conversation with U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing who should become the country’s new leaders – “Yats is the guy,” she said about Arseniy Yatsenyuk who became the post-coup prime minister – while also criticizing the less aggressive European approach with the pithy phrase, “Fuck the EU.”

Nuland’s tough-gal rhetoric continues, including her bellicose testimony before Congress this month, along with the alarmist (and unproven) reports from Gen. Breedlove, who claimed that “well over a thousand combat vehicles, Russian combat forces, some of their most sophisticated air defense, battalions of artillery’ having been sent to the Donbass” in eastern Ukraine.

The Nuland-Breedlove allies in Kiev are doing their part, too. Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko recently claimed that around 50 tanks, 40 missile systems and 40 armored vehicles entered east Ukraine’s breakaway Luhansk region from Russia via the Izvaryne border crossing.

This “rhetoric” strategy follows the tried-and-true intelligence gambit known as the Mighty Wurlitzer, in which false and misleading information is blasted out by so many different sources – like the pipes of an organ – that the lies become believable just because of their repetition.

The Ukraine story has followed this pattern with dubious claims being made and repeated by U.S. and Ukrainian officials and then amplified by a credulous Western news media, persuading people who otherwise might know better — even when supporting evidence is lacking.

Similarly, Official Washington’s chorus of loud demands for ignoring Merkel and sending sophisticated weapons to Ukraine continues to build with the latest member of the choir, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

On March 4, Clapper broke the important ethos of professional intelligence officers scrupulously avoiding policy advocacy when he told an audience in New York that the U.S. should arm the Ukrainians “to bolster their resolve and bolster their morale that, you know, we are with them.”

Clapper offered this endorsement as his “personal opinion,” but who cares about James Clapper’s personal opinion? He is Director of National Intelligence, for God’s sake, and his advocacy immediately raises questions about whether Clapper’s “personal opinion” will put pressure on his subordinates to shape intelligence analysis to please the boss.

We saw a possible effect of this recently when journalist Robert Parry contacted the DNI’s office to get an updated briefing on what U.S. intelligence has concluded about who was at fault for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014.

Blaming the Russians

In prepared testimony before the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Assistant Secretary Nuland had insinuated that the Russians and the ethnic Russian rebels were to blame. She said, “In eastern Ukraine, Russia and its separatist puppets unleashed unspeakable violence and pillage; MH-17 was shot down.”

This may have been another example of Nuland using “rhetoric” to shape the debate, but it prompted Parry to ask the DNI’s office about what evidence there was to support Nuland’s finger-pointing in this tragic incident that killed 298 people.

Kathleen Butler, a DNI spokesperson, insisted that the U.S. intelligence assessment on MH-17 had not changed since July 22, 2014, five days after the shoot-down when the DNI’s office distributed a sketchy report suggesting Russian complicity based largely on what was available on social media.

Parry then sent a follow-up e-mail saying: “are you telling me that U.S. intelligence has not refined its assessment of what happened to MH-17 since July 22, 2014?” Butler responded: “Yes. The assessment is the same.” To which, Parry replied: “That’s just not credible.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “US Intel Stands Pat on MH-17 Shoot-down.”]

But the DNI’s response does make sense if later U.S. intelligence analysis contradicted the initial rush to judgment by Secretary of State John Kerry and other senior officials blaming Russia and the rebels. The Obama administration might not want to surrender a useful propaganda club to bash Moscow, or as Nuland might say, an important piece of anti-Russian “rhetoric.”

As for Brennan and his appearance before the stuffy Council on Foreign Relations fielding questions posed by Charlie Rose as the “presider,” the CIA director seemed more concerned about the flak his agency has been getting for having a cloudy crystal ball and not anticipating how the Ukraine crisis would unfold, saying:

“Now I know that many would like the CIA to predict the future — answering questions such as ‘will Crimea secede and be annexed by Russia’ and ‘will Russian forces move into Eastern Ukraine.’ But the plain and simple truth is that … virtually all events around the globe, future events — including in Ukraine — are shaped by numerous variables and yet-to-happen developments as well as leadership considerations and decisions.”

But the prospect of CIA analysts seeing events clearly – both understanding what may have caused an event in the past and perceiving the complex forces that may shape the future – are diminished when the U.S. intelligence community becomes politicized and exploited for propaganda purposes, when it gets enlisted into “information warfare.”

Obama could surely use some experienced, mature help in putting an end to this potpourri of you-pick-your-favorite-statement about “Russian aggression.” The disarray and deceit on such an important issue does nothing to bolster confidence that he has been tutored well, that he understands the value of sober intelligence work, or that he is in control of U.S. foreign policy.

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. He worked primarily on Russian and European issues during his 27 years as a CIA analyst; he also prepared the President’s Daily Brief for Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Reagan. He is now a member of the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SOURCE w/links, details: https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/14/guiding-obama-into-global-make-believe/



So, given the choice of only those two options, I'd say some DUers wouldn't want readers to learn that PNAC types are still playing major roles in the State Department, even to the point of undermining Sec. Kerry's work.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
458. Why post Glenn Beck NAZI crap on DU, NuclearDem?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 04:15 PM
Jul 2015

There's nothing funny about the NAZI influence on the government of the United States. For those new to the subject:



Making a Killing

April 5, 2002
By Christian Dewar

Many Americans are probably not aware of the great extent to which U.S. corporations collaborated with the Nazi war machine during WWII. After the first world war, many wealthy American industrialists, bankers and financiers invested in Germany, in part, to avoid onerous U.S. regulations and also to reap the tremendous profits from the rebuilding of the nation.

Worried that there might be another war that would cause them to lose their investments, the directors of many of these companies plotted to protect their interests. Law firms like Sullivan and Cromwell specialized in helping to arrange these deals. When the second world war broke out, the Dulles brothers, Allen (who was a partner in that firm) and John, helped these companies hide their assets. As a result, many Nazi industrialist and their American collaborators maintained their wealth after the hostilites ceased.

Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg once stated that "The Dulles brothers were traitors." Some historians believe that Allen Dulles became head of the newly formed CIA in large part to cover up his treasonous behavior and that of his clients. Not confined to a few isolated companies, some of America's most prominent families and their financial empires worked with the Nazis well after the first bombs were dropped on Pearl Harbor.

On March 4th, 1998, a woman from Belgium brought a suit against the Ford Motor Company and it's German affiliate seeking compensation for the work she performed as a slave laborer for the company. Born in Russian, Elsa Iwanovwa claimed that she was abducted and forced to work at Ford's plant at Cologne. As many as 10,000 men, women and children may have labored there, many of them from the Buchenwald concentration camp.

The Ford plant in Germany played a major role in the Nazi war effort. While their American factories produced weapons for the allies, their German subsidiary manufactured troop transports, tracked vehicles, Panzer tanks, anti-tank guns and other crucial equipment for the Nazis. Providing weapons for both contestants in a world war was extraordinarily lucrative.

It is alleged that high ranking American officials including Edsel Ford oversaw the German plant's operations even during the war. Unlike most American businesses doing business in Germany during the war, Ford enjoyed significant independence and was never seized by the Nazi government.

The reason for this was in large part due to the close friendship that endured between Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler. Ford was known for his virulent anti-semitic views and he made substantial financial contributions to Hitler and the Nazi organization in its early years which may have sustained the party at a point where it might have otherwise collapsed.

Hitler's book, Mein Kampf borrowed heavily from Ford's anti-semitic book, The International Jew, a Worldwide Problem which was published in 1927. Hitler awarded Ford with Germany's highest civilian honor, the Great Cross of the German Order of the Eagle. Hitler's office had a large picture of Ford on the wall and stacks of Ford's books to give away to associates. Jim Mooney, GM's chief executive for overseas operations, was also awarded the Order of the German Eagle.

Ford was only one of many American corporations that eagerly helped the Germans. Some did so for ideological reasons and others for the immense profits which could be realized.

General Motors which was owned by the du Pont family during the 1930's manufactured thousands of bombers for the Luftwaffe and troop transports for the Wermacht at the same time that it's American plants were producing engines for the U.S. Air Force. Their German plant built propulsion systems for Germany's deadliest bomber, the Junker 88 and motors for their new, innovative jet fighters. They also repaired Geman trucks and converted them for alternative fuels at their facilites in Switzerland.

According to Charles Higham who wrote about the collaboration of American corporations with the Nazis in his book, Trading with the Enemy, GM may have even plotted with the Nazis against Roosevelt. Higham claims that high ranking officials in the company met with Baron Manfred von Killinger, head of a Nazi espionage rink and with Gestapo leader Baron von Tippleskirsh to sign an agreement "showing total commitment to the Nazi cause for the indefinite future" and that "in view of Roosevelt's attitude toward Germany, every effort must be made to remove him by defeat at the next election. Jewish influence in the political, cultural and public life in America must be stamped out. Press and radio must be subsidized to smear the administration" and an American fascist put in the White House.

Higham states that "Along with friends of the Morgan Bank and General Motors...certain du Pont backers financed a coup d'etat that would overthrow the president with the aid of a $3 million funded army of terrorists." The weapons were to be provided by Remington arms, a du Pont subsidiary.

Higham writes that Irenee du Pont was obsessed with Hitler and once made a speech to the American Chemical Society in 1926 "advocating a race of supermen to be achieved by injecting special drugs into them in boyhood to make their characters to order. He insisted his men reach physical standards equivalent to that of a marine and have blood as pure as that in the veins of the Vikings." The du Ponts financed anti-semitic, facist groups in the U.S. and along with some of America's most prominent families, promoted sterilization programs to assist in the effort to promote the white race over those deemed to be defective.

Higham also states that the du Ponts used their tremendous wealth "to finance the notorious Black Legions. This terrorist organization had as it's purpose the prevention of automobile workers from unionizing. The members wore hoods and black ropes, with skull and crossbones. They fire-bombed union meetings, murdered union organizers, often by beating them to death, and dedicated their lives to destroying Jews and communists. They were linked to the Ku Klux Klan."

The du Ponts formed an armed gang of men "modeled on the Gestapo to sweep though the plants and beat up anyone who proved rebellious. They hired the Pinkerton Agency to send its swarms of detectives through the whole chemicals, munitions and automobile empire to spy on left-wingers or other malcontents." The du Ponts also formed and financed the American Liberty League, "a Nazi organization whipping up hatred of blacks and Jews, love of Hitler, and loathing of Roosevelts." This group had chapters at 26 colleges and subsidiaries nationwide.

Standard Oil has also been implicated in providing crucial support for the Nazi war machine. The helped the Germans develop plants and gave them the necessary technology for the manufacture of synthetic fuels and leaded gas. Standard also assisited the Germans in stockpiling $20 million worth or petrolium products in anticipation of the war. This deal was concluded with the assistance of the Wall Street investment firm Brown Brothers Harriman where the senior managing partner was George H.W. Bush's father, Prescott Bush.

It also is alleged that Standard made a deal with the Germans to thwart the development of synthetic rubber in the United States and to withhold a method of producing synthetic ammonia. The U.S. government eventually seized some of Standard's patents. When the oil giant sued to retain the them, their case was denied. A judge who reviewed the appeal stated that "Standard Oil can be considered an enemy national in view of it's relationships with I.G. Farben after the United States and Germany became active enemies."

When threatened with sanctions, Standard essentially blackmailed the U.S. government, threatening to cut off supplies to the American military. Standard executives received a token fine of a few thousand dollars divided among several defendants. Roosevelt is said to have been reluctant to prosecute the heads of the company for fear of sparking another depression.

ITT also collaborated with the Nazis extensively. They owned significant shares of stock in several companies producing weapons for the Nazi including Focke-Wolfe which built fighter planes and bombers. Their subsidiaries, according to Higham, produced vital supplies such as "switchboards, telephones, alarm gongs, buoys, air raid warning devices, radar equipment and 30,000 fuses per month for artillery shells used to kill British and American troops" as well as "ingredients for the rocket bombs that fell on London."

The Curtis-Wright Aviation Corporation was another U.S. company doing business with the Nazis. Their planes were well suited for dive bombing. Although the Nazi pilots used this technique as an integral part of their blitzkrieg strategy of warfare, it was developed by the US. It was so effective that air plane manufacturers were forbidden to teach this to foreigners. Curtis-Wright managed to manuever around this inconvenient policy by not 'teaching' it, but rather demonstrating it at air shows in order to boost sales to Hitler.

Adding insult to injury, several of these American corporations who had collaborated had the audacity to sue the American government for damage that had been inflicted on their German plants by Allied bombers. GM managed to extract $33 million for the destruction of their Folke-Wulf plant. ITT received $27 million and Ford, a mere $1 million.

American banks have also been implicated in assistance to Nazi Germany including J.P. Morgan, Guaranty Trust of New York, Bank of the City of New York, Chase National Bank and American Express which turned over Jewish accounts to the Nazis. Higham reports that "the Nazi government through Chase National Bank offered Nazi in America the opportunity to buy German marks with dollars at a discount. The arrangement was open to those who wished to return to Germany and would use the marks in the interest of the Nazis."

The Chase Bank of Paris was involved in substantial financing of the Nazi embassy's activities throughout the war with the full knowledge of Chase's American headquarters. The Vichy branch of Chase "were strenuous in enforcing restrictions against Jewish property even going so far as to refuse to release funds belonging to Jews because they anticipated a Nazi decree with retroactive provisions prohibiting such a release."

Other Nazi collaborators include William Hearst, the media giant. After meeting with top Nazi officials and the payment of substantial sums of money, Hearst agreed to a policy whereby his newspaper would only report favorably on Nazi affairs.

Many Americans today might be surprised to discover that President Bush's family fortune was in large part compiled as a result of collaborating with the Nazis after the WWII had commenced. Author John Loftus has written about this recently and it is also covered extensively in the online book, The Elkhorn Manifesto.

According to the online book, George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, written by Webster G. Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin, accessible only on the internet, George Bush senior's family "played a central role in financing and arming Adolf Hitler for his takeover of Germany; in financing and managing the buildup of Nazi war industries for the conquest of Europe and war against the U.S.A.; and in the developent of Nazi genocidal theories and racial propaganda".

The authors claim that "The president's family fortune was largely a result of the Hitler project" and that Bush's banking activities were "not just politically neutral money-making ventures which happened to coincide with the aims of of German Nazi" but rather that all of the firm's European business during that time "was organized around anti-democratic political forces." The book states that "Certain actions taken directly by the Harriman-Bush shipping line in 1932 must be ranked among the gravest acts of treason in this century."

One of the most influential players in financing Hitler's war industries was Brown Brothers Harriman. Prescott Bush, the current president's grandfather, was the managing director. Bush was also director of the Union Banking Corporation. The stock shares were owned by Bush, E. R.Harriman and three Nazi Nazi executives including Fritz Thyssen, one of Hitler's primary financiers. The U.S. government eventually confiscated the Nazi banking operations of Union Banking Corporation in which Bush was a director under the Trading with the Enemy Act.

Another Bush business associate was Friedrick Flick who gave considerable financial support for the SS. Flicks's steel plants used about 48,000 slave laborers from Dachau, most of whom died.

Bush and his business associates were also involved in the operation of the Hamburg-Amerika Line. It was later shown to be a cover for Nazi espionage, spy infiltration and propaganda activities. The U.S. government also seized the Holland-American Trading Corporation, Seamless Steel and the Silesian-American Corporation in which Bush and his associates were involved.

Ultimately, the international corporations, the lawyers, bankers and financiers who collaborated with the Nazis prevailed. They exerted tremendous influence to thwart investigators delving into their seditious activities after the war. Many of the key players were elevated to senior postions in the U.S. government. Many of them were able to maintain their fortunes intact after the war. Officers from the Nazi intelligence and scientific communities became U.S. allies in the Cold War against the Soviets.

Americans at the highest levels of finance, industry and government willingly cooperated with the Nazis for political, ideological and financial reasons. They were heavily responsible for the rise of Hitler. They sustained his war effort and helped to shelter the perpetrators after the war. It would have been a bitter death for the brave American soldiers fighting in Europe if they had realized that comfortable American businessmen back in the States were making fortunes financing the same industrial cartels that manufactured the weapons that were being used to kill them.

Now Prescott's son, former George H.W. Bush, is making another fortune as a merchant of death, marketing weapons thorough the secretive Carlyle group. His power and influence is so pervasive that he can sell the Pentagon obsolete equipment such as the 70-ton Crusader cannon which is poorly suited to the realities of combatting terrorism and which the generals don't even want. George Bush Senior helped to arm both sides, Iran and Iraq, during their murderous war. This was a policy promulgated by his friend Ted Shackley, the legendary CIA spook, who advocated selling arms to both sides in a conflict as a way of enhancing the bottom line.

Historians know that Bush Senior arranged for the U.S. to sell millions of dollars of weapons to Hussein almost up to the time that he decided to invade Iraq country during the Gulf War. His administration sold weapons to the Iranians at a time when they were declared a terrorist nation and held American citizens hostage. As Yogi Berra once said, it's "Deja vu all over again."

Now his son, this administration and their corporate cronies who put them in office are poised to make obscene amounts of money from the weapons industries and oil. This war against a faceless foe and with no end game is costing our country over a billion dollars a month and George Bush wants even more money for defense. President Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex.

Like grandfather, like father, like son. Some things never change. The Bushes know that there is a killing to be made in killing.

© Democratic Underground, LLC

SOURCE: http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/04/p/05_killing.html



That is completely different than what Glenn Beck was saying in that video you linked to, NuclearDem.
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
471. You didn't actually watch the video, did you?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 06:30 PM
Jul 2015

Because if you had, you would know it was a link to a Daily Show segment where Lewis Black eviscerates Glenn Beck for his hyperbolic Nazi comparisons and claims of Nazi-style smears and persecution against him.

Now why on earth would I post such a thing as a reply to this OP?

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
487. It helps when you want to know what you're talking about.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:29 PM
Jul 2015

Since you seem to think I was promoting "Glenn Beck NAZI" shit here, rather than showing a Daily Show clip of Lewis Black making fun of it, it probably would've helped if you'd watched the thing.

Amazing journalism technique, though. "Why waste my time? I can just guess and completely miss the point."

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
149. This is some kind of guerrilla avant garde performance, right
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:03 PM
Jul 2015

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I mean it has to be, because there is no way this kind of persecution complex can be real and receive this many recs.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
240. You would think so. The kinds of issues one would need to have... Well... Lest...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:32 AM
Jul 2015

I get a hide I will end it there.

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
151. This is a good exercise...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:26 PM
Jul 2015


...in reviewing the principles of Democracy.

It's also a good reminder of those posters who think they are furthering those principles by suppressing informative and progressive writing because of the by-line.


k&r


.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
278. Democracy is one idea worth defending, no matter what.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:52 AM
Jul 2015


Col. Anthony Joseph Drexel Biddle, Sr., training members of the team which opposed fascism during World War II.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
154. Wow, is the stupid multiplying?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:33 PM
Jul 2015

I keep hearing about how we can't use various sources, or that stuff that happened more than a week ago isn't relevant, or that we need to self censor, blah blah.

Keep posting Octa, the BFEE is rolling full steam toward 2016, and they include everyone who is considered "relevant" in current politics. Supporters of that in our party seem to be working doubletime to help.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
203. It's all going according to GOP-NAZI plan exposed in 1988...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:49 PM
Jul 2015

...Who came up with de-funding public schools and eliminating the Department of Education?



The GOP/Nazi Connection

FAIR.org, Sept. 1, 1988

On September 8, 1988, Washington Jewish Week (with a circulation of 20,000) disclosed that Vice President George Bush had appointed an ethnic coalition for his campaign that included a number of outspoken antisemites with Nazi and fascist affiliations. The article prompted the resignation of six leaders of the GOP’s ethnic outreach division. Although the resignations were widely reported, few major media investigated the actual charges or explored their implications.

The New York Times, in particular, downplayed the significance of the Nazi/GOP connection, burying the news that six Republican ethnic leaders had quit the campaign on page 24 of the D Section (9/13/88) under the headline “A Decisive Baker Puts His Mark on Bush Race.” The article by Gerald M. Boyd treated the resignation of the discredited ethnic officials less as a scandal than as evidence of Jim Baker’s “authority” in running the Bush campaign.

Unlike most media, the Philadelphia Inquirer featured a series of investigative pieces which documented the Nazi link. A front-page lead story (9/10/88) detailed the sordid past of men like Florian Galdau, the national chairman of Rumanians for Bush, who defended convicted war criminal Valerian Trifa; Radi Slavoff, co-chairman of Bulgarians for Bush, who arranged a 1983 event in Washington that honored Austin App, author of several texts denying the existence of the Holocaust; Phillip Guarino, chairman of the Italian-American National Republican Federation, who belonged to a neofascist masonic lodge implicated in terrorist attacks in Italy and Latin America; Bohdan Fedorak, vice chairman of Ukrainians for Bush, who was also a leader of a Nazi collaborationist organization involved in anti-Polish and anti-Jewish wartime pogroms; and Croatian fascist Jerome Brentar, co-chairman of the GOP ethnic coalition, who acknowledged that as an International Refugee Organization officer he helped hundreds of Nazis emigrate to the US after World War II. Brentar was the principal financial backer for the defense of convicted war criminal John Demjanjuk.

A spokesperson for Vice President Bush dismissed the charges against the six ethnic leaders as “politically inspired garbage,” claiming that the GOP looked into the allegations and “was unable to substantiate them” (Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/13/88). Most media printed this denial unchallenged.

A follow-up story in the Inquirer (9/18/88) summarized the findings of a recent report by Russ Bellant, titled The Old Nazis, the New Right and the Reagan Administration: The Role of Domestic Fascist Networks in the Republican Party and Their Effect on US Cold War Politics. Published by the Cambridge-based Political Research Associates, the report shows how the Bush campaign’s ethnic outreach program is rooted in a pro-Nazi emigré network dating back to the late 1940s. The GOP’s ethnic leaders were among thousands of extremists from Eastern Europe who were welcomed by the US government during the Cold War because of their vociferous anti-communism.

Boosted by CIA subsidies, these “captive nations” exiles succeeded in creating a genuine power base on the far right of the American political landscape. According to Bellant, some are still active in the Bush campaign. But this doesn’t seem to bother the US media, which are more interested in Bush’s repeated invocation of the Pledge of Allegiance as a campaign issue than in those GOP leaders who pledge their allegiance to other flags.

Extra! September/October 1988

SOURCE: http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/the-gop-nazi-connection/



Brave people, then, standing up to the fascist swarm. Could use more of them today. Thank you infinitely for standing up against it, Hydra.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
169. Great thread, Octafish.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:18 PM
Jul 2015

I can't tell you how grateful I am for everything you've shared here at DU, you've opened up my eyes to so many things. There are some treasures here and you are one of them.

Those sites you've mentioned in your OP have been some of my info staples for years. Right wingers hate them, which makes me appreciate them all the more.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
199. Right wingers on his Secret Service detail said they wouldn't protect JFK.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:16 PM
Jul 2015

The source is a former Secret Service agent, who is still alive if anyone wants to learn more about him, Abraham Bolden.

Former U.S. Secret Service Agent Abraham BOLDEN was the first African American Secret Service agent to serve in the White House, personally appointed and literally hand-picked by President John F. Kennedy to the White House detail. Agent Abraham Bolden reported overt racism by his fellow agents and outright hostility toward the "n------loving president," quoting fellow Secret Service agents on the JFK detail.

In addition to enduring all manner of personal indignities, he was concerned at the lack of professionalism in those assigned to protect the president and reported his concerns, including agents who said out loud if anyone started shooting the president, they would not take a bullet for him. He was told, "OK. Thanks" by his superiors. When the problems weren't addressed, Bolden requested transfer back to the Secret Service office in Chicago.



Abraham Bolden speaks at JFK Lancer.



The story of a man who told the truth:



After 45 Years, a Civil Rights Hero Waits for Justice

Thom Hartmann
June 12, 2009 11:52 AM

A great miscarriage of justice has kept most Americas from learning about a Civil Rights pioneer who worked with President John F. Kennedy. But there is finally a way for citizens to not only right that wrong, but bring closure to the most tragic chapter of American presidential history.

After an outstanding career in law enforcement, Abraham Bolden was appointed by JFK to be the first African American presidential Secret Service agent, where he served with distinction. He was part of the Secret Service effort that prevented JFK's assassination in Chicago, three weeks before Dallas. But Bolden was framed by the Mafia and arrested on the very day he went to Washington to tell the Warren Commission staff about the Chicago attempt against JFK.

Bolden was sentenced to six years in prison, despite glaring problems with his prosecution. His arrest resulted from accusations by two criminals Bolden had sent to prison. In Bolden's first trial, an apparently biased judge told the jury that Bolden was guilty, even before they began their deliberations. Though granted a new trial because of that, the same problematic judge was assigned to oversee Bolden's second trial, which resulted in his conviction. Later, the main witness against Bolden admitted committing perjury against him. A key member of the prosecution even took the fifth when asked about the perjury. Yet Bolden's appeals were denied, and he had to serve hard time in prison, and today is considered a convicted felon.

After the release of four million pages of JFK assassination files in the 1990s, it became clear that Bolden -- and the official secrecy surrounding the Chicago attempt against JFK -- were due to National Security concerns about Cuba, that were unknown to Bolden, the press, Congress, and the public not just in 1963, but for the next four decades.

SNIP...

Abraham Bolden paid a heavy price for trying to tell the truth about events involving the man he was sworn to protect -- JFK -- that became mired in National Security concerns. Bolden still lives in Chicago, and has never given up trying to clear his name.

Will Abraham Bolden live to finally see the justice so long denied to him?

CONTINUED...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thom-hartmann/after-45-years-a-civil-ri_b_213834.html



After the assassination, he went to Washington on his own dime and reported what he saw to the Warren Commission. For his trouble -- and despite an exemplary record as a Brinks detective, Illinois State Trooper, and Secret Service agent -- Bolden was framed by the government using a paid informant's admitted perjury and spent a long time in prison. The government also drugged him and put him into psychiatric hospitals.His real crime was telling the truth.

Americans know the Truth: the country hasn't been the same since Nov. 22, 1963. President Kennedy kept the nation out of Vietnam and started toward the moon. Imagine what the New Frontier could have become for us today? Certainly would not be a time where "money trumps peace."

What makes me sad, is how many DUers think they're on the "right" side of history censoring important information that is not on tee vee, not taught in crapademia, nor even mentioned in "polite company." Thanks for the kind words, polly7! They mean the world.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
321. Wow.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 05:56 PM
Jul 2015

Horrific and very sad that Kennedy's own Secret Service Agents and those superiors that shrugged it off were so hateful and racist they'd state and think such devastating things. Bolden is a hero. They certainly did put him through hell and back. Thanks, Octafish, for such an informative read.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
201. It's like a popularity contest at the Grand Jury.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:39 PM
Jul 2015


What's telling is that is how some behave when asked to show where ConsortiumNews is wrong.

Here's an important history most Americans know zero about: The NAZI Echo.

Many of them have escaped facing justice on earth. Not our problem, which is their ideological progenitors, inheritors, and beneficiaries. These warmongers and banksters enrich themselves through government service at the expense of the innocent people of the nation and planet. They are the ones I want to see face justice.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
202. I'd hide my face with a hat too if I authored
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:41 PM
Jul 2015

This ridiculous and disgusting OP, Brad.
Perfect picture!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
219. History is on your side, huh, zappaman?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:25 PM
Jul 2015

The real beneficiaries of NAZI evil are secret government agencies.



The FBI’s shameful recruitment of Nazi war criminals

By Richard Rashke, March 6, 2013

This essay is adapted from Useful Enemies: John Demjanjuk and America’s Open-Door Policy for Nazi War Criminals, which was recently published by Delphinium Books.

A trove of recently declassified documents leads to several inescapable conclusions about the FBI’s role in protecting both proven and alleged Nazi war criminals in America. First, there can be no doubt that J. Edgar Hoover collected Nazis and Nazi collaborators like pennies from heaven. Unlike the military and its highly structured Operation Paperclip — with its specific targets, systematic falsification of visa applications, and creation of bogus biographies — Hoover had no organized program to find, vet, and recruit alleged Nazis and Nazi collaborators as confidential sources, informants, and unofficial spies in émigré communities around the country. America’s No. 1 crime buster was guided only by opportunism and moral indifference.

Each Nazi collaborator that his agents stumbled upon, or learned about from the CIA, was both a potential spy and a potential anticommunist leader. Once they were discovered, Hoover sought them out, used them, and protected them. He had no interest in reporting alleged Nazi war criminals to the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), the Justice Department, or the State Department for possible deportation or extradition. He appeared smug in his simplistic division of Americans into shadeless categories of bad guys and good guys, communists and anticommunists.

Hoover was careful about the number of former Nazis and Nazi collaborators he placed on the FBI payroll. If Congress or its investigative arm, the Government Accountability Office, ever insisted on a tally, he could say with a straight face that there were only a handful of paid confidential sources and informants. But if one adds the war criminals he informally cultivated and used, the number ranges well into the hundreds. Although some of the snapshots may be out of focus, the big picture is now clear. Hoover and the FBI knew the identities, addresses, and backgrounds of up to a thousand alleged Nazis and Nazi collaborators on whom he had files but did not report to INS, Justice, State, or the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) unit of the Justice Department.

Among the newly revealed Nazi collaborators that Hoover and the FBI used and protected were John Avdzej, Laszlo Agh, and Vladimir Sokolov. During the war, Belorussian John Avdzej had been installed as the Nazi’s puppet mayor of the Niasvizh district in western Belorussia, once part of Poland. His first mayoral job was to rid his district of all Poles. As a first step, he gave the Gestapo a list of 120 Polish intelligentsia that included journalists, professors, priests, and former military officers, according to recently declassified intelligence files. Then he took part in their execution, as well as in the murder of thousands of Jews under his political jurisdiction.

The Polish Home Army condemned him to death in absentia. The United States was responsible for bringing Avdzej to America. Hoover snapped him up and protected him until 1984, when OSI charged him with visa fraud. Facing trial and possible extradition for war crimes, Avdzej voluntarily left the United States for West Germany, where he died a free man in 1998.

Laszlo Agh was a wartime member of the Hungarian Arrow Cross, an anti- Semitic group of fascists responsible for the murder of 10,000 to 15,000 Hungarian Jews and the deportation to Auschwitz of another 80,000. According to 12 eyewitnesses, Agh had personally rounded up, imprisoned, tortured, and killed hundreds of Hungarian Jews. The torture included forced calisthenics to the point of unconsciousness, burial in the ground up to the neck until dead, and orders to jump on ground studded with partially buried bayonets.

Agh intrigued Hoover. A bitterly anticommunist leader had fallen into his lap and Hoover quickly recruited him as an unofficial informant. When the INS began to investigate Agh, the FBI refused to cooperate. As a result, Agh was never tried for visa fraud. Like Avdzej, he died a free man.

Russian Vladimir Sokolov (aka Vladimir Samarin) was a senior editor and writer for Rech (Speech), a German-controlled, anti-Semitic Russian newspaper. He entered the United States in July 1951. Sokolov penned articles calling for the extermination of Russian Jews as enemies of the people. Jews advised Stalin, he wrote, started the German-Soviet war, and controlled the White House. Only Germany and its allies had the wisdom to understand the international Jewish conspiracy and the courage to fight “the Kikes of the world.” After the war, Moscow placed Sokolov on its most-wanted list, claiming it had concrete proof that he had worked with the Gestapo as a propagandist and had personally identified Jews for execution. The FBI, on the other hand, considered Sokolov a “sincere, outspoken anti-Communist [and] a potential source.”

At one point, he even taught Russian language and literature at Yale University. “How a man with no high academic credentials suddenly procured such a prestigious position is a mystery,” wrote historian Norman Goda. “It is clear that the FBI used him as an informant while at Yale, possibly to report on Russian students.”

If Sokolov was spying for a U.S. intelligence agency, he was probably an asset in Redcap, a CIA program to collect information on Soviets living and studying abroad. The CIA as well as the FBI wanted to know if a Soviet alien was a KGB mole and, if not, whether he or she could be flipped. Redcap assets were asked to collect information on selected targets. Besides a photograph and handwriting sample, Redcap wanted: a list of non-Soviet contacts; a description of personality, habits, and hobbies; his or her political vulnerability; and the planned date of return to the Soviet Union. Of particular interest to Redcap was information on extramarital affairs that could be used for blackmail.

OSI filed charges against Sokolov for visa fraud and won its case. A federal court stripped him of his U.S. citizenship. To avoid deportation to the Soviet Union, where he would face a public trial and certain execution, Sokolov fled to Canada. He died a free man in 1992.

However shocking and reprehensible, Hoover’s use of alleged Nazis and Nazi collaborators is just a small part of the FBI story. To focus only on that dimension diverts attention away from a more important issue. In choosing to take the low moral ground, Hoover and the FBI betrayed the trust of Americans, living and dead. And in perpetrating a 50-year conspiracy of silence, the FBI shamed Americans and made them unwitting hypocrites in the eyes of the world. Most Americans find morally repugnant — if not criminal — the behavior of European citizens who cheered or merely stood by in silence while Nazis and Nazi collaborators dragged away their neighbors, looted their homes, shot them in the forest, or crammed them into boxcars heading east. How then must Americans judge the cadre of unelected, powerful men who welcomed some of those same murderers to America and helped them escape punishment in the name of national security?

SOURCE: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/03/06/the-fbis-shameful-recruitment-of-nazi-war-criminals/



Do you ever think about fascists influencing government policy, zappaman?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
197. They live happily in the times Frank Church warned us about.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:05 PM
Jul 2015

The late Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) was a patriot, a hero and a statesman, truly a great American.

The guy also led the last real investigation of CIA, NSA and FBI. When it came to NSA Tech circa 1975, he definitely knew what he was talking about:

“That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”

-- Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) FDR New Deal, Liberal, Progressive, World War II combat veteran. A brave man, the NSA was turned on him. Coincidentally, he narrowly lost re-election a few years later.


And what happened to Church, for his trouble to preserve Democracy:

In 1980, Church will lose re-election to the Senate in part because of accusations of his committee’s responsibility for Welch’s death by his Republican opponent, Jim McClure.

SOURCE: http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=frank_church_1


From GWU's National Security Archives:



"Disreputable if Not Outright Illegal": The National Security Agency versus Martin Luther King, Muhammad Ali, Art Buchwald, Frank Church, et al.

Newly Declassified History Divulges Names of Prominent Americans Targeted by NSA during Vietnam Era

Declassification Decision by Interagency Panel Releases New Information on the Berlin Crisis, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Panama Canal Negotiations


National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 441
Posted – September 25, 2013
Originally Posted - November 14, 2008
Edited by Matthew M. Aid and William Burr

Washington, D.C., September 25, 2013 – During the height of the Vietnam War protest movements in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the National Security Agency tapped the overseas communications of selected prominent Americans, most of whom were critics of the war, according to a recently declassified NSA history. For years those names on the NSA's watch list were secret, but thanks to the decision of an interagency panel, in response to an appeal by the National Security Archive, the NSA has released them for the first time. The names of the NSA's targets are eye-popping. Civil rights leaders Dr. Martin Luther King and Whitney Young were on the watch list, as were the boxer Muhammad Ali, New York Times journalist Tom Wicker, and veteran Washington Post humor columnist Art Buchwald. Also startling is that the NSA was tasked with monitoring the overseas telephone calls and cable traffic of two prominent members of Congress, Senators Frank Church (D-Idaho) and Howard Baker (R-Tennessee).

SNIP...

Another NSA target was Senator Frank Church, who started out as a moderate Vietnam War critic. A member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee even before the Tonkin Gulf incident, Church worried about U.S. intervention in a "political war" that was militarily unwinnable. While Church voted for the Tonkin Gulf resolution, he later saw his vote as a grave error. In 1965, as Lyndon Johnson made decisions to escalate the war, Church argued that the United States was doing "too much," criticisms that one White House official said were "irresponsible." Church had been one of Johnson's Senate allies but the President was angry with Church and other Senate critics and later suggested that they were under Moscow's influence because of their meetings with Soviet diplomats. In the fall of 1967, Johnson declared that "the major threat we have is from the doves" and ordered FBI security checks on "individuals who wrote letters and telegrams critical of a speech he had recently delivered." In that political climate, it is not surprising that some government officials eventually nominated Church for the watch list.[10]

SOURCE: http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB441/



I wonder if Sen. Richard Schweiker (R-CT), a liberal Republican, also got the treatment from NSA?

“I think that the report, to those who have studied it closely, has collapsed like a house of cards, and I think the people who read it in the long run future will see that. I frankly believe that we have shown that the [investigation of the] John F. Kennedy assassination was snuffed out before it even began, and that the fatal mistake the Warren Commission made was not to use its own investigators, but instead to rely on the CIA and FBI personnel, which played directly into the hands of senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up.” — Senator Richard Schweiker on “Face the Nation” in 1976.

Lost to History NOT

Comparing some who call themselves Democrats these days to Frank Church is sad.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
194. Some DUers seem to want ConsortiumNews censored as a news source.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:49 PM
Jul 2015

That is as un-Democratic as 5-4 presidential elections.



So Bush Did Steal the White House

George W. Bush now appears to have claimed the most powerful office in the world by blocking a court-ordered recount of votes in Florida that likely would have elected Al Gore to be president of the United States.

By Robert Parry
ConsortiumNews, November 22, 2001

A document, revealed by Newsweek, indicates that the Florida recount that was stopped last year by five Republicans on the U.S. Supreme Court would have taken into account so-called “overvotes” that heavily favored Gore.

If those “overvotes” were counted, as now it appears they would have been, Gore would have carried Florida regardless of what standard of chad – dimpled, hanging, punched-through – was used in counting the so-called “undervotes,” according to an examination of those ballots by a group of leading news organizations.

In other words, Bush lost not only the national popular vote by more than a half million ballots, but he would have lost the key state of Florida and thus the presidency, if Florida’s authorities had been allowed to count the votes that met the state’s legal requirement of demonstrating the clear intent of the voter.

The Newsweek disclosure – a memo that the presiding judge in the state recount sent to a county canvassing board – shows that the judge was instructing the county boards to collect “overvotes” that had been rejected for indicating two choices for president when, in reality, the voters had made clear their one choice.

“If you would segregate ‘overvotes’ as you describe and indicate in your final report how many where you determined the clear intent of the voter,” wrote Judge Terry Lewis, who had been named by the Florida Supreme Court to oversee the statewide recount, “I will rule on the issue for all counties.”

Lewis’s memo to the chairman of the Charlotte County canvassing board was written on Dec. 9, 2000, just hours before Bush succeeded in getting five conservative justices on the U.S. Supreme Court to stop the Florida recount.

Lewis has said in more recent interviews that he might well have expanded the recount to include those “overvotes.” Indeed, it would be hard to imagine that he wouldn’t count those legitimate votes once they were recovered by the counties and were submitted to Lewis.

The “overvotes” in which voters marked the name of their choice and also wrote in his name would be even more clearly legal votes than the so-called “undervotes” which were kicked out for failing to register a choice that could be read by voting machines.

Misguided Articles

This new information indicating that the wrong presidential candidate moved into the White House also makes a mockery of the Nov. 12 front-page stories of the New York Times, the Washington Post and other leading news outlets, which stated that Bush would have won regardless of the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling.

Those stories were based on the hypothetical results if the state-ordered recount had looked only at “undervotes.” The news organizations assumed, incorrectly it now appears, that the “overvotes” would have been excluded from such a tally, leaving Bush with a tiny lead.

In going with the “Bush Wins” headlines, the news organizations downplayed their more dramatic finding that Gore would have won if a full statewide recount had been conducted in accordance with state law. Using the clear-intent-of-the-voter standard, Gore beat Bush by margins ranging from 60 to 171 votes, depending on what standard was used in judging the “undervotes.”

Beyond the big newspapers’ false assumptions about the state recount, the news stories showed a pro-Bush bias in their choice of language and the overall slant of the articles.

The New York Times, for instance, used the word “would” and even declarative statements when referring to Bush prevailing in hypothetical partial recounts. By contrast, the word “might” was used when mentioning that Gore topped Bush if all ballots were considered.

“A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots,” the Times wrote, “reveal that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward. Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United State Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore.”

Two paragraphs later, the Times noted that the examination of all rejected ballots “found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount. … The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to ‘count all the votes.’”

Left out of that formulation, which suggests that Gore was a hypocrite, is the fact that Bush rejected Gore’s early proposal for a full statewide recount. Bush also waged a relentless campaign of obstruction that left no time for the state courts to address the equal-protection-under-the-law concerns raised by the U.S. Supreme Court in its final ruling on Dec. 12, 2000.

Note also how the Times denigrates as misguided Gore “partisans” those American citizens who concluded, apparently correctly, that the U.S. Supreme Court awarded the election to Bush.

The headlines, too, favored Bush. The Times’ front-page headline on Nov. 12 read, “Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote.” The Washington Post’s headline read, “Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush.”

Spreading Confusion

The pro-Bush themes in the headlines and stories were repeated over and over by television and other newspapers, creating a widespread belief among casual news consumers that Bush had prevailed in the full statewide recount, rather than only in truncated recounts based on dubious hypotheses.

Now, Judge Lewis’s memo undercuts both the tone and the content of those news reports. It is certainly not clear anymore that the state-ordered recount would have favored Bush. It also appears likely that the interference by the U.S. Supreme Court was decisive. Based on the new evidence, the major newspapers look to be wrong on both these high-profile points.

Beyond Gore’s narrow victory from the recoverable ballots, the news organizations concluded – but played down – that Gore lost thousands of unrecoverable ballots because of flawed ballot designs in several Democratic strongholds. Gore lost other votes because Gov. Jeb Bush’s administration disqualified hundreds of predominantly black voters who were falsely labeled felons.

The New York Times also reported that Bush achieved a net gain of about 290 votes by getting illegally cast absentee votes counted in Republican counties while enforcing the rules strictly in Democratic counties. Though the new recount tallies did not include any adjustments for these irregularities, the news organizations estimated that Gore lost tens of thousands of votes from these disparities, compared to Bush’s official victory margin of 537 votes.

For months, the leading news organizations have been bending over backwards to protect Bush’s fragile legitimacy, possibly out of concern for the nation’s image in a time of crisis. Yet, whatever the motivation for trying to make Bush look good, the evidence is now overwhelming that Bush strong-armed his way, illegitimately, to the presidency.

In the days immediately after the election, Bush obstructed a full-and-fair recount in Florida, even dispatching hooligans from outside the state to intimidate vote counters. When Gore pressed for recounts in the courts, Bush sent in lawyers to prevent the tallies. Then, after losing before the Florida Supreme Court and the federal appeals court, Bush ultimately got a friendly hearing from five political allies on the U.S. Supreme Court.

If Bush truly respected the precepts of democracy and what those principles mean to the world, he could have joined Gore in demanding as full and fair a Florida recount as possible. He could have accepted the results, win or lose.

Instead Bush opted for the opposite course, deciding that his getting the White House was more important than the voters having their judgment accepted, both nationally and in Florida. By refusing to hold Bush accountable for his key role in thwarting the voters’ will, the major news organizations are not doing the cause of democracy any service.

It turns out that the thousands of demonstrators who protested Bush’s Inauguration were closer to the truth when they shouted at his motorcade, “Hail to the Thief!”

(For more on studies about the election results, see Consortiumnews.com stories of May 12, June 2, July 16 and Nov. 12.)

SOURCE w/the links: https://consortiumnews.com/2001/112101a.html



Had the New York Times and Wall Street Journal covered the story, who knows? Bush might not have been pretzeldent for 8 years.
 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
195. Well Parry's "useful idiot" schtik aside,
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:58 PM
Jul 2015

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater... After all, it's not like ConsortiumNews is a pure dudebro propaganda outlet like Russia Today or First Look Media...

I have no problem with a moratorium on posting Parry's stuff until he regains his sanity...

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
198. Anything to say about what Parry wrote, Blue Tires?
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:08 PM
Jul 2015
... After all, it's not like ConsortiumNews is a pure dudebro propaganda outlet like Russia Today or First Look Media...

I have no problem with a moratorium on posting Parry's stuff until he regains his sanity...


Your statement does not refute anything Parry wrote, nor provide insight as to why you wrote it.
 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
222. I've easily refuted his Ukraine stuff in previous threads...Search away
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:34 AM
Jul 2015

Or do you honestly believe Obama is trying to setup Russia and manufacture a case for WWIII, as Parry has often said?? Do you also believe Obama is trying to frame Russia for MH17? Is that something you're willing to buy into? Please tell me, if you are...

How about I flip the script, because god knows I'm tired of repeating myself in a different thread every two weeks...Here and now, why don't you list something, anything Parry has written about Ukraine that he has been proven 100% right on? I promise you that will be a shorter list than the pure, unfiltered bullshit he's been oozing out so far...

Then have a glance at this and keep trying to tell me Parry has his head screwed on right:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/31/report-from-the-belly-of-the-putin-apologetics-beast.html
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/19/robert-parry-falsely-accuses-60-minutes-australia-of-using-mh17-fake-evidence/comment-page-1/

Sometimes folks get so deep in political ideology they can't tell which way is up anymore... Sooner or later you'll have to admit to yourself that Parry's "news" is the same journalistic quality of Breitbart or InfoWars (ironically Parry's work is pretty popular with the readers of those sites, for some unexplained reason)...

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
241. Great, but Parry reported Team PNAC, not President Obama, who push for war in Ukraine.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:45 AM
Jul 2015

That's a big diff.



Seeking War to the End of the World

Like spraying lighter fluid on a roaring barbecue, the neocons also want a military escalation in Ukraine to burn the ethnic Russians out of the east, and the neocons dream of spreading the blaze to Moscow with the goal of forcing Russian President Vladimir Putin from the Kremlin. In other words, more and more fires of Imperial “regime change” abroad even as the last embers of the American Republic die at home.

by Robert Parry
ConsortiumNews, July 19, 2015

If the neoconservatives have their way again, U.S. ground troops will reoccupy Iraq, the U.S. military will take out Syria’s secular government (likely helping Al Qaeda and the Islamic State take over), and the U.S. Congress will not only kill the Iran nuclear deal but follow that with a massive increase in military spending.

Like spraying lighter fluid on a roaring barbecue, the neocons also want a military escalation in Ukraine to burn the ethnic Russians out of the east, and the neocons dream of spreading the blaze to Moscow with the goal of forcing Russian President Vladimir Putin from the Kremlin. In other words, more and more fires of Imperial “regime change” abroad even as the last embers of the American Republic die at home.

Much of this “strategy” is personified by a single Washington power couple: arch-neocon Robert Kagan, a co-founder of the Project for the New American Century and an early advocate of the Iraq War, and his wife, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, who engineered last year’s coup in Ukraine that started a nasty civil war and created a confrontation between nuclear-armed United States and Russia.

Kagan, who cut his teeth as a propaganda specialist in support of the Reagan administration’s brutal Central American policies in the 1980s, is now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing columnist to The Washington Post’s neocon-dominated opinion pages.

On Friday, Kagan’s column baited the Republican Party to do more than just object to President Barack Obama’s Iranian nuclear deal. Kagan called for an all-out commitment to neoconservative goals, including military escalations in the Middle East, belligerence toward Russia and casting aside fiscal discipline in favor of funneling tens of billions of new dollars to the Pentagon.

CONTINUED...

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/19/seeking-war-to-the-end-of-the-world/



So that was missing from what's on DU, including your post above, anyway.
 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
514. So you truly believe Nuland is a rogue
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:06 AM
Jul 2015

and her actions don't reflect State Department/White House foreign policy?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
515. Truly, that is a great question.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 11:47 AM
Jul 2015
Hersh: Cheney ‘Left A Stay Behind’ In Obama’s Government, Can ‘Still Control Policy Up To A Point’

BY MATT CORLEY
POSTED ON MARCH 31, 2009 AT 4:40 PM

In an interview on NPR’s Fresh Air yesterday, host Terry Gross asked investigative journalist Seymour Hersh if, as he continues to investigate the Bush administration, “more people” were “coming forward” to talk to him now that “the president and vice president are no longer in power.” Hersh replied that though “a lot of people that had told me in the last year of Bush, ‘call me next, next February,’ not many people had talked to him. He implied that they were still scared of Cheney.
“Are you saying that you think Vice President Cheney is still having a chilling effect on people who might otherwise be coming forward,” asked Gross. “I’ll make it worse,” answered Hersh, adding that he believes Cheney “put people back” in government to “stay behind” in order to “tell him what’s going on” and perhaps even “do sabotage”:

HERSH: I’ll make it worse. I think he’s put people left. He’s put people back. They call it a stay behind. It’s sort of an intelligence term of art. When you leave a country and, you know, you’ve driven out the, you know, you’ve lost the war. You leave people behind. It’s a stay behind that you can continue to contacts with, to do sabotage, whatever you want to do. Cheney’s left a stay behind. He’s got people in a lot of agencies that still tell him what’s going on. Particularly in defense, obviously. Also in the NSA, there’s still people that talk to him. He still knows what’s going on. Can he still control policy up to a point? Probably up to a point, a minor point. But he’s still there. He’s still a presence.


SNIP...

The idea that Cheney would seed the government with trusted contacts is not surprising. As Hersh noted in his talk with Gross, Cheney has “been around forever” and “understands bureaucracy much better” than almost anyone in government. In 2006, Robert Dreyfuss reported for The American Prospect that when Cheney helped staff the Bush administration in 2001, he put together a “corps of hard-line acolytes” that served “as his eyes and ears” in the federal bureaucracy. Former officials called them “Dick Cheney’s spies.”
Additionally, before leaving office, the Bush administration aggressively placed political appointees into permanent civil service positions as part of a process known as “burrowing.” Some of the burrowed former political appointees have close ties to Cheney, such as Jeffrey T. Salmon, who was a speechwriter for Cheney when he served as defense secretary. In July, he was named deputy director for resource management in the Energy Department’s Office of Science.

CONTINUED w/links...

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2009/03/31/37200/hersh-cheney-behind/


Explains a lot, especially the continuing influence of neoconservatives. One name to pay attention to is Victoria Nuland, our woman in Ukraine, who is married to PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan

Robert Kagan's brother is Frederick Kagan

Frederick Kagan's spouse is Kimberly Kagan

Brilliant people, big ideas, and a lot of PNAC. And the PNAC approach to international relations means more wars without end for profits without cease, among other things detrimental to democracy, peace and justice.

What do you think, Blue_Tires?
 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
544. I must say this whole thread is fuckin' gold in 2018...
Fri Mar 16, 2018, 05:21 PM
Mar 2018

Just whistlin' past the graveyard....

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
191. RT airs interviews with former SEC regulator William K Black, whom the Bush-Obama DoJs ignored.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:48 PM
Jul 2015


So, there is that.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
272. That's not William K. Black, though. Ever hear of Russell Tice?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jul 2015

He's someone you might really like, a guy who exposed NSA spying on then-Sen. Obama before you ever heard of Edward Snowden, I bet. Tice is ignored by US media. Hear what he had to say on RT:



Russell Tice is more credible as a source than Alex Jones. I wonder why you don't know that, Major Nikon? You write like you're an intelligent person.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
190. That must be why I posted: Who enabled NAZI Germany to round up the Jews? Think IBM.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:45 PM
Jul 2015

You must have missed it.



Who enabled NAZI Germany to round up the Jews? Think IBM.

The company and its Hollerith machines enabled the fascists to tabulate census data and find out "who was who?" and "who did what?"and "who lives where?"



Oh. The IBM machines and the cards they used to process information also were used to find out "how many Jews?" and "where are they?"



IBM & "Death's Calculator"

by Edwin Black

EXCERPT...

When the Reich needed to mount a systematic campaign of Jewish economic disenfranchisement and later began the massive movement of European Jews out of their homes and into ghettos, once again, the task was so prodigious it called for a computer. But in 1933, no computer existed. When the Final Solution sought to efficiently transport Jews out of European ghettos along railroad lines and into death camps, with timing so precise the victims were able to walk right out of the boxcar and into a waiting gas chamber, the coordination was so complex a task, this too called for a computer. But in 1933, no computer existed.

However, another invention did exist: the IBM punch card and card sorting system-a precursor to the computer. IBM, primarily through its German subsidiary, made Hitler's program of Jewish destruction a technologic mission the company pursued with chilling success. IBM Germany, using its own staff and equipment, designed, executed, and supplied the indispensable technologic assistance Hitler's Third Reich needed to accomplish what had never been done before-the automation of human destruction. More than 2,000 such multi-machine sets were dispatched throughout Germany, and thousands more throughout German-dominated Europe. Card sorting operations were established in every major concentration camp. People were moved from place to place, systematically worked to death, and their remains cataloged with icy automation.

SNIP...

I was haunted by a question whose answer has long eluded historians. The Germans always had the lists of Jewish names. Suddenly, a squadron of grim-faced SS would burst into a city square and post a notice demanding those listed assemble the next day at the train station for deportation to the East. But how did the Nazis get the lists? For decades, no one has known. Few have asked.

The answer: IBM Germany's census operations and similar advanced people counting and registration technologies. IBM was founded in 1898 by German inventor Herman Hollerith as a census tabulating company. Census was its business. But when IBM Germany formed its philosophical and technologic alliance with Nazi Germany, census and registration took on a new mission. IBM Germany invented the racial census-listing not just religious affiliation, but bloodline going back generations. This was the Nazi data lust. Not just to count the Jews — but to identify them.

CONTINUED...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gypibm.html



For me, one who's carried this knowledge most of my adult life, I find it difficult to grasp how anyone could fail to fathom where today's secret government and all its illegalities will head.

So, for science:

Did you know that IBM helped the NAZIs round up the Jewish people in Germany and throughout occupied Europe?



Gee, REP. Come to think of it, I don't see too many other posts on Edwin Black on DU or, like he says in the following video, on tee vee or the New York Times, thanks to pressure from some quarter or another.



Hope people spread some important news in days when IBM serves the NSA and employees of the Carlyle Group.


Octafish

(55,745 posts)
200. No. ConsortiumNews sheds light on those responsible for the Holocaust.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:26 PM
Jul 2015

The NAZIs and their influence on secret government still felt today. Catch the "ex" part.



CIA at 50: Still Hiding Its 'Original' Nazi Sin

By Martin A. Lee

EXCERPT...

During his 10 months at Fort Hunt, ("ex"-NAZI Gen. Reinhard) Gehlen presented a professional image, the pure technician who liked nothing better than to immerse himself in maps, flow-charts and statistics. The persona he projected was, in espionage parlance, a "legend" -- one that hinged on Gehlen's false claim that he was never really a Nazi. He just was dedicated to fighting communism. Among those who took the bait was future CIA director, Allen Dulles, who became one of Gehlen's biggest post-war boosters.

With a mandate to continue gathering information in the East just as he had been doing for Hitler, Gehlen re-established his spy organization, initially under U.S. Army supervision. The Gehlen "Org," as it was called, enlisted thousands of Gestapo, Wehrmacht and SS veterans despite Gehlen's promise to U.S. officials that he would not employ hard-core Nazis.

Yet, even the vilest of the vile -- senior bureaucrats who administered the Holocaust -- were welcome in the Org. (Alois Brunner, Adolf Eichmann's right-hand man and personal favorite, found gainful employment courtesy of Gehlen and the CIA.) "It seems," the Frankfurter Rundschau editorialized, "that in the Gehlen headquarters one SS man paved the way for the next and Himmler's elite were having happy reunion ceremonies."

U.S. officials knew that many of the people they were subsidizing had committed horrible crimes against humanity, but atrocities were overlooked as the anti-communist crusade gained momentum. Through Gehlen, the CIA had access to former leaders of virtually every Nazi puppet government from the Baltics to the Black Sea, as well as to a rogues gallery of Waffen SS fanatics.

Bolted to the CIA in the late 1940s, Gehlen's Nazi-infested spy apparatus functioned as America's secret eyes and ears in Central Europe. Under CIA auspices, and later as head of the West German secret service (BND), Gehlen was able to influence U.S. policy toward the Soviet Bloc. The Org played a major role within NATO, too, supplying two-thirds of raw intelligence on Warsaw Pact countries.

"What we had, essentially, was an agreement to exploit each other, each in his own national interest," said James Critchfield, a CIA operative who worked with Gehlen on a daily basis for eight years.

"The Agency loved Gehlen because he fed us what we wanted to hear," an ex-CIA officer told writer Christopher Simpson. "We used his stuff constantly, and we fed it to everybody else -- the Pentagon, the White House, the newspapers. They loved it, too. But it was hyped up Russian bogeyman junk, and it did a lot of damage to this country."

CONTINUED...

https://consortiumnews.com/archive/story41.html



So now readers know a bit more of why NAZIs at CIA matter: Among other things, they helped the GOP Wall Street Big Money boys, the heart of the Military Industrial Complex, drum up the Cold War and its associated fear and profits.

You ever hear of Martin A. Lee before today, struggle4progress?

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
213. I might have missed something
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:38 PM
Jul 2015

What are the attacks on CounterPunch based on?

Late last night I noticed they had just published an anti-Hillary article, is that what prompted the attacks? Or was it something else?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/24/five-inconvenient-truths-about-hillary-clinton/

Five Inconvenient Truths About Hillary Clinton

by Ben Burgis

Thinking about voting for Jill Stein (or any candidate not named “Hillary Rodham Clinton”) in November 2016? You probably already know that by next fall, a lot of your liberal friends and family members will be about as open to that discussion as loyal Ingsok members in 1984 were to Emmanuel Goldstein’s criticisms of Big Brother. Hell, a lot of those minds will have been thoroughly closed by the time people start voting in the primaries, and the Hillary machine has really geared up with its demonization of Bernie Sanders as a Crazy Unelectable Commie. Right now—the summer before her inevitable coronation—might be the last time you can talk to some of those people about the case against Clinton without being accused of being a stooge of Jeb Bush (or Scott Walker, or whoever). With that in mind, here’s a handy list of five facts to bring up in those conversations.


I've occassionally read CounterPunch for many many years, also The Nation. I agree sometimes and disagree other times, serious writing and opinion though from generally intelligent authors. Surprised to see all of this uproar about them. Seems to be from the corporate wing of the party, figures.

Anyway, I'd truly like to know, if anyone out there knows, is the article I linked the cause of the uproar? If so that is very sad and petty.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
408. You may be correct, as CN and CP post articles critical of politicians.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:21 PM
Jul 2015

Thank you for the heads-up on "The Five Inconvenient Truths About Hillary Clinton." One important point Robert Parry made during the previous campaign was based on what didn't happen during the presidency of Bill Clinton:



Hillary Signals Free Pass for Bush

By Robert Parry
ConsortiumNews, December 31, 2007

Hillary Clinton’s campaign is signaling that a second Clinton presidency will follow the look-to-the-future, don’t-worry-about-accountability approach toward Republican wrongdoing that marked Bill Clinton’s years in office.

That was the significance of former President Clinton’s remarkable Dec. 17 comment that his wife’s first act in the White House would be to send Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush on an around-the-world mission to repair America’s damaged image.

“The first thing she intends to do is to send me and former President Bush and a number of other people around the world to tell them that America is open for business and cooperation again,” said Bill Clinton, who has accompanied the senior Bush on international humanitarian missions over the past several years.

What was perhaps most stunning about the remark was its assumption that Americans would be impressed that the country’s two dominant political dynasties would team up in early 2009 to tidy up some of the mess created by the headstrong son of the senior dynasty, the Bush Family.

The Bushes and the Clintons – who have held pieces of the nation’s executive power for more than a quarter century dating back to George H.W. Bush’s election as Vice President in 1980 – essentially would be keeping matters within the board rooms of the Washington Establishment.

In responding to Bill Clinton’s remark, George H.W. Bush issued a statement making clear he would not join in any slap at his son’s foreign policy. That also means Hillary Clinton’s “first thing” is unthinkable if her new administration were trying to exact any accountability from George W. Bush for his wrongdoing.

So, to get the senior Bush’s cooperation on the worldwide tour, there would have to be an implicit understanding that the second Clinton administration wouldn’t investigate the younger Bush’s crimes – from authorizing torture, ordering warrantless wiretaps, exposing CIA officer Valerie Plame’s identity, waging war under false pretenses and other abuses of executive powers.

If Hillary Clinton does get elected, you can expect to hear lots of talk about “leaving that one for the historians” or about the danger of increased partisanship if the Democrats were viewed as trying to “get even” by exposing Bush’s offenses.

The wise heads of Washington surely would nod in approval at this “bipartisanship” of a Democratic administration deciding not to get bogged down in “refighting the battles” of the second Bush administration.

The First Clinton-Bush Deal

That’s exactly what happened in 1993 when Bill Clinton entered the White House after defeating George H.W. Bush.

Clinton and other senior Democrats shut down or wrapped up four investigations that implicated senior Republicans, including Bush, in constitutional abuses of power and criminal wrongdoing during the Reagan-Bush years.

The Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages case was still alive, with special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh furious over new evidence that President George H.W. Bush may have obstructed justice by withholding his own notes from investigators and then ducking an interview that Walsh had put off until after the 1992 elections.

Bush also had sabotaged the investigation by pardoning six Iran-Contra defendants on Christmas Eve 1992, possibly the first presidential pardon ever issued to protect the same President from criminal liability.

In late 1992, Congress also was investigating Bush’s alleged role in secretly aiding Iraq’s Saddam Hussein during and after Hussein’s eight-year-long war with Iran.

Representative Henry Gonzalez, a Democrat from Texas who had served three decades in Congress, had exposed intricate financial schemes that the Reagan-Bush administrations employed to assist Hussein. There also were allegations of indirect U.S. military aid through third countries, including the supply of dangerous chemicals to Iraq.

Lesser known investigations were examining two other sets of alleged wrongdoing: the so-called October Surprise issue (allegations that Bush and other Republicans interfered with Jimmy Carter’s hostage negotiations with Iran during the 1980 campaign) and the Passportgate affair (evidence that Bush operatives improperly searched Clinton’s passport file in 1992, looking for dirt that could be used to discredit his patriotism and secure reelection for Bush).

All told, the four sets of allegations, if true, would paint an unflattering portrait of the 12-year Republican rule, with two illegal dirty tricks (October Surprise and Passportgate) book-ending ill-considered national security schemes in the Middle East (Iran-Contra and Iraqgate).

Had the full stories been told, the American people might have perceived the legacies of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush quite differently.

But the Clinton administration and congressional Democrats dropped all four investigations beginning in early 1993, either through benign neglect – by failing to hold hearings and keeping the issues alive in the news media – or by actively closing the door on investigative leads.

Clinton let George H.W. Bush retreat gracefully into retirement. [For details on the scandals, see Robert Parry’s Secrecy & Privilege.]

Joining the Cover-ups

In his 2004 memoir, My Life, Clinton wrote that he “disagreed with the [Iran-Contra] pardons and could have made more of them but didn’t.” Clinton cited several reasons for giving his predecessor a pass.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided, even if that split would be to my political advantage,” Clinton wrote. “Finally, President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the matter between him and his conscience.”

By his choice of words, Clinton revealed how he saw information – not something that belonged to the American people and had intrinsic value to the democratic process – but as a potential weapon that could be put to “political advantage.”

On the Iran-Contra pardons, Clinton saw himself as generously passing up a club that he could have wielded to bludgeon an adversary. He chose instead to join in a cover-up in the name of national unity.

Similarly, the Democratic congressional leadership ignored the flood of incriminating evidence pouring in to the “October Surprise” task force in December 1992.

Chief counsel Lawrence Barcella told me later that he urged task force chairman Lee Hamilton to extend the investigation several months to examine this new evidence of Republican guilt, but Hamilton ordered Barcella simply to wrap up the probe with a finding that the 1980 Reagan-Bush campaign had done nothing wrong.

Some of the new incriminating evidence – including an unprecedented report from the Russian government about its knowledge of illicit Republican contacts with Iran – was simply hidden away in boxes that I discovered two years later and dubbed “The October Surprise X-Files.”

The “Iraqgate” investigation met a similar fate under Clinton’s Justice Department, which chose to ignore or dismiss evidence of covert shipments of war materiel to Saddam Hussein during the 1980s.

In 1995, when former Reagan national security official Howard Teicher came forward with an affidavit describing secret U.S.-backed arms shipments to Iraq, Clinton’s Justice Department went on the offensive – against Teicher, trying to discredit him and bullying him into silence.

That same year, the Clinton administration did nothing when Reagan’s 1984 campaign chief Ed Rollins wrote in his 1996 memoir Bare Knuckles and Back Rooms that a top Filipino politician had admitted delivering an illegal $10 million cash payment to Reagan from Philippine dictator Ferdinand Marcos.

"I was the guy who gave the ten million from Marcos to your campaign," the Filipino told Rollins in 1991, according to the memoir. "I was the guy who made the arrangements and delivered the cash personally. ...It was a personal gift from Marcos to Reagan."

The stunning anecdote did attract some press coverage in 1996 but the story died because the Clinton administration made no effort to follow it up. No government investigator demanded that Rollins reveal the identities of the Filipino politician and the Republican lobbyist who handled the pay-off.

(Rollins is now chairman of Republican Mike Huckabee’s presidential campaign.) [For details on Marcos-Reagan case, see Consortiumnews.com’s “Huckabee’s Chairman Hid Payoff Secret.”]

Proving Themselves

In the mid-1990s, even as the Republican attack machine pounded the Clintons with allegations about alleged ethical lapses and marital infidelities, the Clinton administration acted like it was determined to prove that it could be trusted with the nation’s dark secrets, that it could cover up wrongdoing with the best of them.

The consequence for America, however, was different. With George H.W. Bush’s dubious public record whitewashed, the door was opened to the restoration of the Bush Dynasty. If the full truth had been known about former President Bush, it’s hard to conceive how George W. Bush ever could have become President.

Now, as Hillary Clinton seeks a strong showing in the Iowa caucuses to solidify her image as the inevitable Democratic nominee, she appears ready to pick up the mantle as the Democratic protector of the Bush Family’s legacy. Though she may utter some tough words about George W. Bush on the campaign trail, she’s not likely to follow up if she wins the White House.

If Bill Clinton is telling the truth about Hillary Clinton’s “first thing” to do as President – recruiting George H.W. Bush for a worldwide goodwill tour on behalf of America’s image – that will require closing the door on any serious investigation of George W. Bush.

The two dynastic families then can look to the future, again.

SOURCE: https://consortiumnews.com/2007/123107.html



So. Instead of "Look to the Future!" we got "Move On!"

My reason for the OP: I wanted to defend ConsortiumNews, in particular, because of Robert Parry's early support for Democratic Underground. For the complete story, please ask the great DUer blm.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
445. Didn't know about the DU - Parry link
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 10:03 PM
Jul 2015

Your article reminded me of a lot of things I had forgotten. One of them was Henry Gonzalez, U.S. Congressman from Texas, I used to love that guy, one of the few who always tried to hold people accountable.

Have a good one, Octafish.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
448. Henry Gonzalez: A Great American...was ready to fight E Howard Hunt, mano a mano.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 08:22 AM
Jul 2015

From The Congressional Record:



ARTICLE ARCHIVE

From 1992: On the floor of the House, an exasperated Henry Gonzalez exposes the first Bush administration's longstanding support for Saddam Hussein, and the insanity of imperial war.

THE BANCA NAZIONALE DEL LAVORO SCANDAL:

HIGH-LEVEL POLITICS TRY TO HIDE THE EVIDENCE


Henry B. Gonzalez, (TX-20)

(House of Representatives - September 14, 1992)


The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Dooley). Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from Texas is recognized for 60 minutes.

SNIP...

You had E. Howard Hunt. The only thing I know about E. Howard Hunt was 2 years ago in July, in fact July 14, I go back to my district every weekend, and I came in that Saturday morning. I arrived at the San Antonio Airport, and there was a couple there that used to be in my district and moved to a small town up in what we call the hill country.

They recognized me and said, `Oh, Congressman. How are you? We are so glad to see you.'
I saluted them and addressed them. I was leaving when this individual comes up. I had never met him before, but from his pictures and all I could tell that what he said was true.

He said, `You are Congressman Gonzalez?'

I said, `Well, I am E. Howard Hunt, and you are nothing but a--' and then he used a bad word.
Well, I had two little bags I was carrying, very small, so I just dropped them. I noticed he had a shoulder holster with a pistol. It was obvious.

So I said, `Mister, since you want to use sailors' language, here is what I think of you.' And then I used some choice words.

I said, `Let me tell you something else. You take one step forward closer to me or you make a move for the gun in your shoulder holster, and I will swear to you I will take it from you and in self defense I will kill you with it.'

He looked at me startled, turned around, and walked away. I picked up my bags and walked out of the airport.

That is all I know. Now, was he E. Howard Hunt? Well, he sure looked like him. What was his beef? I do not know. What was he doing in San Antonio? I do not know. Why does he still have a shoulder holster and pistol? I do not know. He is ex-CIA. They say ex, but there ain't no such thing.

(Page: H8353)

SOURCE: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/congress/1992_cr/h920914g.htm



Mr. Gonzalez was a man, a patriot, and one brave fellow. He was a real American.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
449. Yes, Gonzalez was truly heroic
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 08:35 AM
Jul 2015

Off topic a little, but wasn't E. Howard Hunt the guy who supposedly made a death-bed confession to one of his sons that he had been invoolved in the Kennedy assassination? First, do I have the right guy? Second, what did you think of that story? I'd google for a link but my guess is you're alreaddy fully aware of it. I never knew whether to trust that story or not, interested in what you thought.

More on topic, I was doing research for an anti-war media group I was volunterring for during the run-up to the 1st gulf war, and was digging all into the Italian bank BNL that your link was about, my memory slips but that bank was right in the middle of the whole thing. I remember being in the library reading up on it, had to peruse old New York Times and such with a microfiche reader, those were the days, hard to research with no internet.. Normon Solomon was leading our little group, we tried to get info out to people but our efforts ultimately didn't make much if any differrence. Good memories in bad times.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
450. Know Your BFEE: Poppy Bush Armed Saddam
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:19 AM
Jul 2015


The American news media have betrayed the American people by overlooking the crimes of the Bushes*. Some of the biggest lies of ommission concern how, as Vice President and then as President, George Herbert Walker Bush helped arm Iraq and its strongman, Saddam Hussein. In their work to create a counterbalance to the Ayatollahs of Iran, Bush and his cronies created a Frankenstein. Today, Bush's son, installed as president by a partisan and thus crooked Supreme Court, continues to use the threat of this Bush-made Frankenstein as justification for the illegal invasion of Iraq.

First: George Herbert Walker Bush and his toadie Donald Rumsfeld led the charge to arm Saddam Hussein... of course, their "work" was done on behalf of Ronald "Can't Recall" Reagan...



In the Loop: Bush's Secret Mission

by Murray Waas and Craig Unger
The New Yorker Magazine - November 2, 1992

EXCERPT…

Iraq desperately needed American aid. On February 26th, the State Department sent a memo, classified "Confidential," to Bush's national-security adviser, Donald P. Gregg, who is now Ambassador to South Korea. The memo was intended to prepare the Vice-President for a March 2nd meeting with Nizaar Hamdoon, the Iraqi Ambassador, and was accompanied by "talking points for Bush to use in conversations first with John Bohn, the new chairman of the Export-Import Bank, and then with Hamdoon. "Iraqi Ambassador Hamdoon is calling on me soon," Bush's first script read, "and I expect him to raise the issue of short-term Exim credit insurance for Iraq...I urge you and your colleagues on the Board to give that favorable consideration... Exim's support for continued trade with Iraq would be a powerful timely signal... of U.S. interest in stability in the Gulf."

The bank's economists had already concluded that Iraq had little chance of repaying the loan. Nevertheless, Bohn agreed to Bush's request, overriding the advice of the bank's professional staff, and when the Vice-president met with Hamdoon he was able to relay the good news. He was scripted to say, the memo notes, "I am pleased that Commerce has recently issued licenses for some long pending items" - high-technology exports -for Iraq. "You should take that as a sign of our seriousness in addressing the issue." Many of those items, it is now known, were examples of dual-use technology -helpful to Iraq's programs to develop ballistic missiles, chemical weapons, and nuclear weapons.

By this time, the Iran-Contra investigations were under way in Congress. But one of the key witnesses, William Casey, was unable to appear, he was in Georgetown hospital, being treated for a malignant brain tumor. He died on May 6th. Amiram Nir, who was also expected to be a witness in the Iran-Contra trials, died in the crash of a small plane in Mexico in 1988. Meanwhile, Vice-President Bush was trying to escape the political fallout of the Iran-Contra disclosures. He told the Washington Post that he had not been aware that serious objections were raised by Shultz and Weinberger to selling weapons to Iran. "If I had sat there, and heard George Shultz and Cap express it strongly, maybe I would have had a stronger view. But when you don't know something it's hard to react... We were not in the loop."

On August 6, 1987, the day the Post article appeared, Weinberger telephoned Shultz, incredulous that Bush had denied knowledge. "He was on the other side," Weinberger said, according to notes taken by Shultz's executive secretary, Charles Hill. "It's on the record! Why did he say that?"

More recently, Howard Teicher, the former national Security Council adviser who worked closely with Casey and Bush on the covert arms sales, had come forward to dispute Bush's story. "Bush definitely knew almost everything about the Iranian arms-sales initiative," Teicher told us. "I personally briefed him in great detail many times. Like so many others, he got premature Alzheimer's after the arms sales became public."

CONTINUED…

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2002/111402.htm



Gee. One would think the American people would be, uh, angry to discover their government was arming a nutjob? Maybe that's why most people don't know this stuff.



U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup

Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds

by Michael Dobbs

High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international terrorists. What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally.

Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.

The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait -- which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors -- is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy. It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Throughout the 1980s, Hussein's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then still in the throes of an Islamic revolution. U.S. officials saw Baghdad as a bulwark against militant Shiite extremism and the fall of pro-American states such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan -- a Middle East version of the "domino theory" in Southeast Asia. That was enough to turn Hussein into a strategic partner and for U.S. diplomats in Baghdad to routinely refer to Iraqi forces as "the good guys," in contrast to the Iranians, who were depicted as "the bad guys."

CONTINUED…

ARCHIVED: https://web.archive.org/web/20040215203712/http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1230-04.htm



Here's more to remember: The same technology we sold to Saddam were used to justify the illegal invasion of 2003.



Saddam Hussein: Made in the USA

by Mike Burke
imc-nyc-print@indymedia.org, February 14, 2003

"The Bush administration sent U.S. technology to the Iraqi military and to many Iraqi military factories, despite over-whelming evidence showing that Iraq intended to use the technology in its clandestine nuclear, chemical, biological, and long-range missile programs."

No this quotation is not pulled from a conspiracy-minded website, but from the Congressional Record from July 27, 1992. They are the words of the late Congressman Henry Gonzalez of Texas.

For months in the early 1990s Gonzalez released hundreds of documents that outlined how the highest levels of the U.S. government - including Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush and current Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - had secretly and illegally helped arm Saddam Hussein. The scandal was known as Iraqgate.

In 1991, Charles Schumer, then a New York Congressman, now the New York Senator, said Hussein was Bush's Frankenstein: "He had been created in the White House laboratory with a collection of government programs, banks, and private companies." At the time, future Vice President Al Gore said, "Bush is presiding over a cover up significantly worse than Watergate."

SNIP...

In December, the White House boldly seized Iraq's 12,000-page weapons document in order to censor parts for the non-permanent Security Council states.

Among the information deleted was a list of U.S. corporations, government agencies and laboratories that aided Iraq. The companies included Honeywell, Kodak, Bechtel, Dupont and Hewlett-Packard. Among the government agencies were the Departments of Defense, Energy, Commerce and Agriculture. And then there were government nuclear weapons laboratories Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia, which all offered training to Iraqi scientists. This information emerged only after a German news reporter obtained unedited portions of the Iraq documents.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/Saddam_MadeInUSA.html



Thanks largely to Joseph Trento, we still have someone around who can still talk about all this. He's in the pen, like Poppy's other business buddies Saddam Hussein and Manuel Noriega...



Another Failed Attempt to Gag The Arms Dealer Who Supplied Saddam

Joe Trento's Column
5/16/2005

Miami – Sarkis Soghanalian was once the most powerful arms dealer in the world. Filled with charm, able to communicate in eight languages, Soghanalian had one weakness – he liked to speak to reporters. A few weeks ago I went into the Perdue rehabilitation center in South Miami to reconnect with the arms dealer. Even sick with diabetes and unable to walk, Soghanalian still scares the hell out of the Bush family and their business associates.

SNIP...

Soghanalian has also had a long relationship with the CIA, working with one of their brightest (now retired) officers, Lou Severe. His poorest relationship was with Customs and Immigration, now known as ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement). He had been instructed by his bosses in the Reagan White House not to do business with Customs. The Miami office of Customs, now ICE, has been angry with Soghanalian ever since he refused to help them by becoming a snitch concerning other CIA front companies.

In 1984 former Nixon officials (including John Mitchell, Spiro Agnew and others) forced the arms dealer to put them in business selling military uniforms to Saddam. If Sarkis didn’t throw the uniform business their way, he was told he would not get export licenses to provide the helicopters the Reagan Administration wanted sent to arm Saddam. Even Richard Nixon, wrote letters of endorsement of the deal. The $450 million dollar deal produced shoddy uniforms Saddam refused to pay for. Soghanalian was sued in civil court by these former public servants. After Soghanalian beat the businessmen in civil court, the arms dealer found he was being targeted by his old associates through the administration of George H.W.Bush. When Soghanlian began sharing details with ABC’s Nightline, of how the Reagan/Bush team had aided Saddam through the 80’s as the 1991 Gulf War loomed, the hammer fell on Soghanalian. In the early 1990’s the first Bush Administration orchestrated a prosecution of Soghanalian for delivering weapons on his private 727 to Iraq. One of the key witnesses standing by to testify against him was former Marine Colonel Jack Brennan, then a Bush I White House aide. Brennan had been a key partner in the uniform deal. The case was political. Bush was running for reelection and the Iraqgate scandal was engulfing him.

Bush I appointees in Miami indicted and convicted Soghanalian. That resulted in a six-year federal prison sentence and an attempt by the Bush Administration to cut Soghanalian off from all media contact while in the Federal prison system. But even in jail the arms dealer had bombs to throw. He told me in an interview for British television that Mark Thatcher (son of the Prime Minister) had profited from dealing classified night vision devices to Saddam’s government. That resulted in a major scandal in England. George H. W. Bush’s defeat gave Soghanalian a chance to show the Clinton Administration - what he could do about its $100 bill counterfeiting problem. He was so successful in his work with the Secret Service that his jail sentence suddenly ended and he was back in business in time for the 1995 Paris Air Show. Working with France, Soghanalian was involved in deals around the world, including Saudi Arabia.

In 1995 while on a visit to Los Angeles Soghanalian was approached by an associate of now infamous Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff. That meeting resulted in a previously unreported FBI investigation of a top Republican member of the House of Representatives and his wife. A two-year off and on FBI investigation followed. Soghanalian was promised that sanctions against Iraq would be lifted—allowing Soghanalian to be paid—in exchange for a huge payment to self-proclaimed surrogates of the politician. The investigation was stopped at the highest levels in the FBI during the Clinton impeachment proceedings. The main target of the probe left elective political life with no evidence collected that he had done anything illegal. According to the prosecutor in charge there were very hard feelings against Soghanalian for his role in starting the investigation. According to federal agents involved in the case the FBI leadership stopped the case before evidence could be collected on the politician.

CONTINUED...

http://www.dcbureau.org/20050516805/trentos-take/another-failed-attempt-to-gag-the-arms-dealer-who-supplied-saddam.html



Hmm. Jack Abramoff? No wonder no one in Washington like to talk about all this.

*Since November 22, 1963, the American media have turned a blind eye toward one family name – Bush. This series of posts is to fill in and correct the record of the Bush Family Evil Empire. Contrary to what the Press Corpse and its psyops handlers report, there is such a thing as a vast right wing conspiracy. And it works on behalf of the Secret Government, the one headed by the people that pay for George Walker Bush, his Poppy and all their sick and sordid ilk.

Death. Death. Death.

Original Post on DU: Sept. 18, 2005

------------------------

BONUS HISTORY:



THE ADMINISTRATION'S IRAQ GATE SCANDAL

BY WILLIAM SAFIRE
Congressional Record
Extension of Remarks - May 19, 1992
Washington

Americans now know that the war in the Persian Gulf was brought about by a colossal foreign-policy blunder: George Bush's decision, after the Iran-Iraq war ended, to entrust regional security to Saddam Hussein.

What is not yet widely understood is how that benighted policy led to the Bush Administration's fraudulent use of public funds, its sustained deception of Congress and its obstruction of justice.

As the Saudi Ambassador, Prince Bandar, was urging Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker to buy the friendship of the Iraqi dictator in August 1989, the F.B.I. uncovered a huge scam at the Atlanta branch of the Lavoro Bank to finance the buildup of Iraq's war machine by diverting U.S.-guaranteed grain loans.

Instead of pressing the investigation or curbing the appeasement, the President turned a blind eye to lawbreaking and directed another billion dollars to Iraq. Our State and Agriculture Department's complicity in Iraq's duplicity transformed what could have been dealt with as `Saddam's Lavoro scandal' into George Bush's Iraqgate.

The first element of corruption is the wrongful application of U.S. credit guarantees. Neither the Commodity Credit Corporation nor the Export-Import Bank runs a foreign-aid program; their purpose is to stimulate U.S. exports. High-risk loan guarantees to achieve foreign-policy goals unlawful endanger that purpose.

Yet we now know that George Bush personally leaned on Ex-Im to subvert its charter--not to promote our exports but to promote relations with the dictator. And we have evidence that James Baker overrode worries in Agriculture and O.M.B. that the law was being perverted: Mr. Baker's closest aid, Robert Kimmett, wrote triumphantly, `your call to . . . Yeutter . . . paid off.' Former Agriculture Secretary Clayton Yeutter is now under White House protection.

Second element of corruption is the misleading of Congress. When the charge was made two years ago in this space that State was improperly intervening in this case, Mr. Baker's top Middle East aide denied it to Senate Foreign Relations; meanwhile, Yeutter aides deceived Senator Leahy's Agriculture Committee about the real foreign-policy purpose of the C.C.C. guarantees. To carry out Mr. Bush's infamous National Security Directive 26, lawful oversight was systematically blinded.

Third area of Iraqgate corruption is the obstruction of justice. Atlanta's assistant U.S. Attorney Gail McKenzie, long blamed here for foot-dragging, would not withhold from a grand jury what she has already told friends: that indictment of Lavoro officials was held up for nearly a year by the Bush Criminal Division. The long delay in prosecution enabled James Baker to shake credits for Saddam out of malfeasant Agriculture appointees.

When House Banking Chairman Henry Gonzalez gathered documents marked `secret' showing this pattern of corruption, he put them in the Congressional Record. Two months later, as the media awakened, Mr. Bush gave the familiar `gate' order; stonewall.

`Public disclosure of classified information harms the national security,' Attorney General William Barr instructed the House Banking Committee last week. `. . . in light of your recent disclosures, the executive branch will not provide any more classified information'--unless the wrongdoing is kept secret.

`Your threat to withhold documents,' responded Chairman Gonzalez, `has all the earmarks of a classic effort to obstruct a proper and legitimate investigation . . . none of the documents compromise, in any fashion whatsoever, the national security or intelligence sources and methods.'

Mr. Barr, in personal jeopardy, has flung down the gauntlet. Chairman Gonzalez tells me he plans to present his obstruction case this week to House Judiciary Chairman Jack Brooks, probably flanked by Representatives Charles Schumer and Barney Frank, members of both committees.

`I will recommend that Judiciary consider requiring the appointment of an independent counsel,' says Mr. Gonzalez, who has been given reason to believe that Judiciary--capable of triggering the Ethics in Government Act--will be persuaded to act.

Policy blunders are not crimes. But perverting the purpose of appropriated funds is a crime; lying to Congress compounds that crime; and obstructing justice to cover up the original crime is a criminal conspiracy.

SOURCE: http://fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm





As for E Howard Hunt: Oh, yeah. He's the same guy who torpedoed Nixon at Watergate and confessed on his deathbed to being a "benchwarmer" in Dallas to his son. The guy's old school CIA, chums of Poppy, who also, coincidentally I'm told, was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
516. Thanks
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 05:28 AM
Aug 2015

Informative as always. I still have a couple of boxes of old newspaper articles on the arming of Iraq, BNL, BCCI, etc., for some reason I thought it was important to try to document that, back before the internet made everything so much more accessible. A fool's errand, I suppose, thankfully there are people like you who have an actual handle on much of this information, I get overwhelmed by it though I try to understand and keep up when I can find the time.

I still view that first Gulf War as a trap-play, we signalled to Sadaam that we would look the other way, apparently (though I've never seen conclusive prrof, but recall the Kuwaiti ambassador fainting when presented some rev ealing document by the Iraqis) we had a back-end agreement with Kuwait that they need not worry about Sadaam invading, we would intervene and send him away. IIRC we sent the signal to Iraq that we'd look the other way via 3 different diplomatic channels (Glaspie, and I forget the others unfortunately but somewhere I have it documented). When Iraq invaded, "gotcha!"

I also recall a claim made by a French reporter that he confronted Glaspie after the fact with this accusation, and she replied "we didn't think he would take all of it" as the official excuse for the whole war-enabling diplomatic fiasco. Glaspie was one of those spooks who always seemed to show up in a place just before something really bad went down.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this if you have any, I akways believed that version of events though I never felt the evidence to support it was air-tight.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
518. April Glaspie affair exposes pro- anti-BFEE divisions within the Establishment.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:04 AM
Aug 2015

Foreign Policy (Rockefeller, CFR, etc) on one hand promoted revisionist history that the liberals and non-warmonger set work to pile on Ms. Glaspie. Yet, FP also revealed that some of the scholars and statesmen and women are not willing to "play ball." That is good, for those who care about democracy.



WikiLeaks, April Glaspie, and Saddam Hussein

BY STEPHEN M. WALT
Foreign Policy, JANUARY 9, 2011

I’m generally not inclined to take issue with my FP colleagues, but David Kenner’s recent posting on the WikiLeaks release of a cable recounting Saddam Hussein’s infamous meeting with U.S. ambassador April Glaspie deserves a response.

In an article headlined "Why One U.S. Diplomat Didn’t Cause the Gulf War," Kenner argues that the new release shows that Glaspie should not be blamed for the U.S. failure to make a clear deterrent warning to Saddam. And that is what he accuses me and John Mearsheimer (and the Washington Post) of doing. In his words, "the Washington Post described her as ‘the face of American incompetence in Iraq.’ Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer piled on in a 2003 article for Foreign Policy, arguing that Glaspie’s remarks unwittingly gave Iraq a green light to invade Kuwait."

I agree that the WikiLeaks release may exonerate Glaspie for being personally responsible for a diplomatic gaffe, but there are two problems with Kenner’s version of events.

First, we never accused Glaspie of diplomatic incompetence, and we certainly didn’t "pile on." Here’s what we actually said in our 2003 piece:

In a now famous interview with the Iraqi leader, U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie told Saddam, ‘[W]e have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait.’ The U.S. State Department had earlier told Saddam that Washington had ‘no special defense or security commitments to Kuwait.’ The United States may not have intended to give Iraq a green light, but that is effectively what it did."


Notice that we offered no opinion on whether Glaspie was free-lancing, mis-reading Saddam, or simply following orders from Washington. Our article was focused on the issue of whether Saddam was deterrable, and the key issue that concerned us about the Glaspie meeting was whether she had conveyed a clear deterrent threat to Saddam, or whether she might have unintentionally given him reason to think he could go ahead and absorb Kuwait without facing a strong military response from the United States.

Second, a careful reading of the cable suggests that Saddam could have easily interpreted Glaspie’s conversation, along with other statements by U.S. officials, as a sign that the United States was not strongly committed to protecting Kuwait. For starters, the cable makes it clear that Saddam is at the end of his rope. He spends much of the conversation reciting a long list of grievances, and though his manner is described as "cordial, reasonable, and even warm," he repeatedly accuses the United States of having malign intentions toward Iraq. For example, the cable refers to one of his "main points" being that the "USG maneuvers with the UAE and Kuwait. . .[and] encouraged them in their ungenerous policies." And he makes it clear that his patience is not unlimited: "Iraqi rights, Saddam emphasized, will be restored one by one, thought it may take a month or much more than a year." He also speaks of the "pride" of Iraqis, whom he says believe in "liberty or death," and he warns that Iraq "will have to respond if the US uses these methods." He adds that "Iraq knows the USG can send planes and rockets and hurt Iraq deeply," but he "asks that the USG not force Iraq to the point of humiliation at which logic must be disregarded."

How does Glaspie respond to Saddam’s litany of grievances, complaints, and not-very-veiled threats?

Her very first point in response is to thank him for the opportunity to discuss these matters directly, and she then says that "President Bush, too, wants friendship." Her next point is to tell Saddam that "the President had instructed her to broaden and deepen our relations with Iraq," and she reminds Saddam that though "some circles" might oppose that policy, "the U.S. administration is instructed by the President." And then she adds that "what is important is that the President has very recently reaffirmed his desire for a better relationship" and he has shown that desire by opposing some sanctions bills.

In short, her initial response to Saddam is to try to reassure him of America’s friendly intentions, and to try to convince him that his suspicions are mistaken. It also seems clear that Glaspie is simply following the instructions she had been given.

CONTINUED...

http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/09/wikileaks-april-glaspie-and-saddam-hussein/



What Speaker Sam said holds today: "Those who go-along, get along."

And that's why I, too, save the old articles, dreamnightwind. The way things disappear down the Memory Hole, someone has to.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
522. I think that is why the message coming from 3 channels said something to me
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:09 PM
Aug 2015

That it wasn't, of course, Glaspie going rogue, she was doing what she was paid to do.

Interesting how the referenced cable tells Saddam "some circles", I wonder if that was true of just their way of working Saddam in a good cop bad cop game. I think the latter is likely, and that they played him right into invading Kuwait, knowing they would then have their excuse to intervene militarily.

I'm not 100% certain of the 3 channels thing, let me know if you have that info, I remember reading it in perhaps one source, which is not enough to be certain, and I forget what the other channels were. I'm sure I have the article somewhere, so eventually I'll rediscover it and see if it was a good source, but I don't have that stuff organized and rarely look at it, so it'll be awhile before I get to it.

Thanks for chatting and for posting on DU.

Dr. Strange

(26,056 posts)
225. First they came for surprise...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:57 AM
Jul 2015

surprise and fear...fear and surprise....

First they came for surprise, and I wasn't surprised.
Then they came for fear, and ruthless efficiency....

First they came for surprise, and I wasn't surprised.
Then they came for fear, and I wasn't afraid.
Then they came for ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

No, among the things they came for were fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency...I'll come in again.

dougolat

(716 posts)
236. And so we all lose when such ridicule and name calling...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:44 AM
Jul 2015

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:25 AM - Edit history (1)

...is used to defend the "respectable" sources,(the profiteer's teleprompter), and thus, the distortions, misinformation and outright lies (most often found to be so later, after the dust has settled and the deeds are done) and shun the voices who so often turn out to have been correct.

Case in point; the wall of noisy lies that led us into Iraq.

Does it take charges of "Putin-agent" to hide the shameful role of Nuland in Ukraine, or the dangerous, promise-breaking and outrageously aggressive behavior of NATO in the last two decades?

Does it take cries if "anti-semite" to obscure the awareness of the dual citizenship of so many of the pivotal neo-cons, or the shameful funding, arming, and defending the slaughter in Gaza?

Does it call for label of "conspiracy theorist/ wing-nut" to deflect criticism of the TPP and its siblings, or the power-plays of Monsanto, which are happening as we speak.

Or does it call for adult judgment and discernment?

Apparently there are many here who put their trust in the Official Bullhorn Feed.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
269. Why All This Matters: Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jul 2015

As we run up to more war for profit, some things to remember from 12 years ago:





Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception

Many neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz are disciples of a philosopher who believed that the elite should use deception, religious fervor and perpetual war to control the ignorant masses.

By Jim Lobe / AlterNet May 18, 2003

What would you do if you wanted to topple Saddam Hussein, but your intelligence agencies couldn't find the evidence to justify a war?

A follower of Leo Strauss may just hire the "right" kind of men to get the job done – people with the intellect, acuity, and, if necessary, the political commitment, polemical skills, and, above all, the imagination to find the evidence that career intelligence officers could not detect.

The "right" man for Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, suggests Seymour Hersh in his recent New Yorker article entitled 'Selective Intelligence,' was Abram Shulsky, director of the Office of Special Plans (OSP) – an agency created specifically to find the evidence of WMDs and/or links with Al Qaeda, piece it together, and clinch the case for the invasion of Iraq.

Like Wolfowitz, Shulsky is a student of an obscure German Jewish political philosopher named Leo Strauss who arrived in the United States in 1938. Strauss taught at several major universities, including Wolfowitz and Shulsky's alma mater, the University of Chicago, before his death in 1973.

Strauss is a popular figure among the neoconservatives. Adherents of his ideas include prominent figures both within and outside the administration. They include 'Weekly Standard' editor William Kristol; his father and indeed the godfather of the neoconservative movement, Irving Kristol; the new Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Stephen Cambone, a number of senior fellows at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) (home to former Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle and Lynne Cheney), and Gary Schmitt, the director of the influential Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which is chaired by Kristol the Younger.

Strauss' philosophy is hardly incidental to the strategy and mindset adopted by these men – as is obvious in Shulsky's 1999 essay titled "Leo Strauss and the World of Intelligence (By Which We Do Not Mean Nous)" (in Greek philosophy the term nous denotes the highest form of rationality). As Hersh notes in his article, Shulsky and his co-author Schmitt "criticize America's intelligence community for its failure to appreciate the duplicitous nature of the regimes it deals with, its susceptibility to social-science notions of proof, and its inability to cope with deliberate concealment." They argued that Strauss's idea of hidden meaning, "alerts one to the possibility that political life may be closely linked to deception. Indeed, it suggests that deception is the norm in political life, and the hope, to say nothing of the expectation, of establishing a politics that can dispense with it is the exception."

CONTINUED...

http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/leo_strauss%27_philosophy_of_deception



Thank you for standing up for Democracy, CrawlingChaos. Your presence means the world.

CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
325. I can't say this often enough Octafish
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:10 PM
Jul 2015

You are the best of the best at DU. I'm so grateful for what you do. Please don't ever stop.

And what the hell, here's a hug because I love ya

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
235. I have been listing internet media that people should follow instead of the TV and
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 03:01 AM
Jul 2015

cable news.

Thanks for mentioning these news sources that I did not mention. My list was very short. Thanks. No need to be limited by the cable news racket. The news coverage is so superficial and extremely right-wing. No to cable. Yes to internet sources.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
263. I put that principle in action when I remember what Gen. George S. Patton said long ago...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:46 AM
Jul 2015

"No one is thinking if everyone is thinking alike."

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1047015.General_Patton_s_Principles

In addition to online news outlets, the Internet gives us instant access to specific areas of import. For instance, we might learn about PNAC's continuing influence on U.S. foreign policy via RIGHTWEB:



Victoria Nuland's spouse: Robert Kagan

Robert Kangan's brother: Frederick Kagan

Frederick Kagan's spouse: Kimberly Kagan

Brilliant people, big ideas, etc. The thing is, that's a lot of PNAC.



Thank you for standing up for Democracy, JDPriestly. Those interested in shutting down discussion don't know what they're serving.

seafan

(9,387 posts)
242. Another insightful quote to hold close these days.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:57 AM
Jul 2015

I am sure that it's one of your favorites too, Octafish.


I never give them hell; I just tell them the truth and they think it is hell. ---Harry S. Truman


The truth matters.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
253. Thank you, seafan! That is one of the great Democratic quotes of all time.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:21 AM
Jul 2015

There's nothing like a good quotation. Saves time, for one thing provides Truth, more importantly.

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations. Bartlett's Familiar Quotations is an admirable work, and I studied it intently. The quotations when engraved upon the memory give you good thoughts. They also make you anxious to read the authors and look for more. -- Winston Churchill


Thank you, seafan! DU gets about a dozen orders of magnitude smarter when you're around, something to do with the light.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
250. Because nothing says ''Democracy'' like Secret Government.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:10 AM
Jul 2015

1.) No public oversight.

2.) No public accountability.

3.) Secret Enemies.

4.) Secret Privilege.



From rigged elections and wars without end for profit: When government power is exercised in secret, there's no telling who benefits, who pays, what it costs, nor what it means for the nation and its citizens or the planet and its people.

You never say anything about any of that, Major Nikon. Why?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
255. You think associating me with them somehow damages my reputation? I stand behind them.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:26 AM
Jul 2015

Go ahead and find fault with them, then. Show where I'm wrong.



Crop Circles. UFOs. Other Dimensions. Edge of Reality stuff that scares the Air Force and other members of the armed forces around the world. GOOGLE Frederick Valentich, Felix Moncla and Robert Wilson, or Thomas Mantell for example of brave people who have lost their lives in connection with UFOs.

You help shut down their discussion by ridiculing those who are interested in them. Doing so is un-democratic, Major Nikon.



As for reputation, I'll compare my writings on DU to yours, any day. Gladly.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
257. No, frequently promoting anti-Semitic writers and this OP...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jul 2015

Is what makes your reputation.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
268. Are you speaking for Major Nikon, now?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:54 AM
Jul 2015

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

Show where I promote anti-Semitic writers, zappaman. You still haven't shown where I'm wrong on this OP or any place else. And I've asked you for years to do so.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
295. Great. What entertains you, others may find informative.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:07 PM
Jul 2015

Lots of veterans on DU and in life are afraid to post on UFOs.



"We selectively ignore basic facts. What I mean by a basic fact is something that’s just there that needs to be addressed, even if they can’t explain it they should have said “we can’t explain this but it’s there” so they at least recognize that this basic fact existed. My problem is, just like the UFO thing, unless they start addressing these kinds of things, peoples observations or basic measurements or factual evidence that simply exists, unless they start addressing them there’s always going to be questions, especially now with the government, how much trust do you have with this government? They’ve been spying, putting whistle blowers in jail, torturing, and giving immunity to people who commit these kinds of crimes, how much trust can you put in a government like that? When you selectively ignore these kids of things..." -- William Binney

SOURCE: http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/09/03/highest-ranking-nsa-whistle-blower-of-all-time-addresses-the-ufo-question-see-what-he-has-to-say/



Is that why you just try to smear me by associating me with UFOs, without actually refuting what I say about UFOs? Nice!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
304. A USAF guy I met mentioned he'd lose his pension if he answered my question about UFOs.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:01 PM
Jul 2015

Some people must know more than others, huh? Must of been his pay grade.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
348. Ah, the unnamed anonymous USAF guy. What command and unit was he in? What was his job? nt
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:45 AM
Jul 2015

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
361. Why would I tell you something told to me in confidence?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jul 2015

Don't you know anything at all about journalism, stevenleser?

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
366. Because those wouldn't identify him since he is retired, right?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:20 PM
Jul 2015

Don't you know about journalism? Something to show your source knows what they are talking about?

There are many jobs and many commands in the Air Force Octafish, the vast majority of which would not be in a position to have any special knowledge of anything regarding whether there were UFOs or not.

You see, I am former USAF, and not only that, I was in Air Force Space Command assigned to Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Base, now designated Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station. When I was there it was headquarters US Space Command. The command has a lot of people in it. Simply mentioning the major command wouldn't help you find anyone currently in it let alone someone retire on a pension.

You would know all of that if you had done your homework. Also, if you go to the Cheyenne Mountain Wikipedia entry, I am mentioned in one of the footnotes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain_Complex

I spoke to the guys monitoring satellites and who would actually be in a position to see unidentified space craft if they showed up on the scopes. After laughing, they all said the same thing. They never saw anything like that.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
368. Thanks for the UFO lesson. You make a logical fallacy, however.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:37 PM
Jul 2015

That is: Just because no one told you, doesn't mean there's nothing to tell.
Maybe be the guys monitoring satellites who laughed at your question didn't know.
Maybe they did and didn't want to tell you.
Who knows what the truth is?
That's what a journalist is supposed to do, though: Find out.

As for monitoring satellites, a report from Jacques Vallee:



Heretic Among Heretics: Jacques Vallee Interview

Conspire.com (original source, date unknown)

EXCERPT...

60GCAT: How did you first become interested in UFOs and paranormal phenomena?

Vallee: I started out wanting to do astronomy and I ruined essentially a perfectly good career in science by becoming interested in computers. This was in France in the early days of computing and the earliest days of satellites and space exploration. So I took some of the earliest computer courses at French universities.

My first job was at Paris observatory, tracking satellites. And we started tracking objects that were not satellites, were fairly elusive, and so we decided that we would pay attention to those objects even though they were not on the schedule of normal satellites. And one night we got eleven data points on one of these objects--it was very bright. It was also retrograde. This was at a time when there was no rocket powerful enough to launch a retrograde satellite, a satellite that goes around opposite to the rotation of the earth, where you obviously need to overcome the earth's gravity going the other direction. You have to reach escape velocity in the direction opposite the rotation of the earth, which takes a lot more energy than the direct direction. And the man in charge of the project confiscated the tape and erased it the next morning.

So that's really what got me interested. Because up to then I thought, Scientists don't seem to be interested in UFOs, astronomers don't report anything unusual in the sky, so there probably isn't anything to it. Effectively, I was in the same position that most scientists are in today--you trust your colleagues, and because you don't see any reports from credible, technical witnesses, you assume that there is nothing. And there I was with a technical report--I don't know what it was. It wasn't a flying saucer--it didn't land close to the observatory. But still, it was a mystery. And instead of looking at the data and preserving the data, we were destroying it.

CONTINUED...

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc839.htm



Did you ever hear of Jacques Vallee before today, stevenleser?

Something else about journalism: The reason one doesn't reveal a source, even after years, is that a person will be traced. All an investigator with a brain and a pencil needs to know is how you know somebody. They go from there. Frank Church talked about that, too. You have heard of him, right?
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
369. Nope, those are pretty much the only guys who would know
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jul 2015

And if they were going to tell stories, they would be much more likely to tell a fellow Airman with a security clearance (who they also hung out with fairly frequently) than someone else.

Nice try

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
372. So they would break their secrecy oaths for SCI?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:50 PM
Jul 2015

Sounds a lot like conduct unbecoming an officer or non-commissioned officer.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
398. Well that's your claim isn't it? That one of them told you something that broke their
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:20 PM
Jul 2015

Oath to keep things secret?

Here's a hint, if one of those guys saw something that troubled them, it's much more likely they would tell a friend they have beers with who actually held the same level of clearance that they held instead of a no name self proclaimed journalist.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
403. I didn't claim anything. I explained why I said what I did.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:44 PM
Jul 2015

Unlike you claiming "a no name self proclaimed journalist" would know what you don't know. You don't know that, either.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
379. No, it was a cigar. And it blew up in your face, SidDithers of DU.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:31 PM
Jul 2015

You have yet to show where I'm wrong on this or any other OP.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
401. You better believe it!
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:31 PM
Jul 2015

Sorry you got shown for who you really are in this misguided thread of yours.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
407. If that's the best you got, wow.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:07 PM
Jul 2015

A tongue lashing from you and stevenleser. Roger Ailes must be trembling in his leather boots.



According to the new biography (and a history going back a ways in GOP circles), The Loudest Voice In The Room: How The Brilliant, Bombastic Roger Ailes Built Fox News — And Divided A Country:



Ailes was “a big fan” of Leni Riefenstahl, Hitler’s notorious favorite filmmaker—not for her Nazi ideology but for her cinematic talent as a propagandist. “Ailes was especially taken by Riefenstahl’s use of camera angles.”

SOURCE: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/01/extraordinary-revelations-about-roger.html



Terry Gross of Fresh Air interviewed Gabriel Sherman, the guy who wrote, the book today.

This is the kind of information that Fox viewers might appreciate knowing before watching their television screens.

Did you know Roger Ailes and the Big Money has been in bed with Big NAZI for a long time, zappaman?

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
409. If that's the best you got...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:24 PM
Jul 2015

Wow.


By the way, shouldn't you be out trying to figure out the mysterious mystery of the mysterious unexplainable crop circle mystery?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2897407

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
414. No, actually. Here's how Rupert Murdoch helped maneuver America into war on Iraq.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:08 PM
Jul 2015


Shocking:

Did Rupert Murdoch Push Tony Blair on Iraq War?

Rupert Murdoch took part in an "over-crude" attempt by US Republicans to push Tony Blair into action before the invasion of Iraq, the former British prime minister's ex-media chief claimed Saturday.

Alastair Campbell said the News Corporation media baron warned Blair in a phone call of the dangers in delaying signing up to the March 19, 2003 invasion, as part of an attempt to speed up Britain joining the military campaign.

SNIP...

"Both TB and I felt it was prompted by Washington, and another example of their over-crude diplomacy. Murdoch was pushing all the Republican buttons, how the longer we waited the harder it got."

The following day he added: "TB felt the Murdoch call was odd, not very clever."

CONTINUED...

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/970894/shocking%3A_did_rupert_murdoch_push_tony_blair_on_iraq_war/




zappaman

(20,627 posts)
416. I agree that tequila can be good for you.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:10 PM
Jul 2015

In moderate amounts of course.
You may find #14 of particular interest.
See you at the next BBQ! Bring some booze this time(hint hint)!

1. It helps lower blood sugar
2. It aids in weight loss
3. You don’t really get hungover
4. You can drink it straight without wanting to throw up afterward
5. It helps fight cholesterol
6. Tequila may be used to help treat colds
7. It helps you numb the pain
8. It can serve as a “drug delivery system”
9. Diabetics can indulge too
10. You look like a damn badass on a first date
11. It won’t make you feel as fat as vodka and beer
12. You don’t have to waste your calories on a chaser
13. Everyone respects a person who rolls up with a bottle of tequila to a pregame
14. It cleans your colon in a different way than you may think
15. It chills you out and helps you sleep





http://elitedaily.com/life/15-reasons-tequila-actually-really-good/927020/

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
435. You've been reduced to babble.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 08:53 PM
Jul 2015

And you haven't shown where I'm wrong, zappaman, on this or any other thread.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
437. It has as much to do with the thread as the post I replied to except
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:00 PM
Jul 2015

Mine was more informative.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
259. It's still online
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:37 AM
Jul 2015

I just checked the website and it's there.

Nobody came for ConsortiumNews.

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
284. Not true.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:09 PM
Jul 2015

It has the right to be online.
But if people want to promote their anti-Semitic writers, they should be called on it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
288. No offense, I don't take your word on anything, zappaman.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jul 2015

Starting with speaking for all DU.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
293. No, it wouldn't.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:44 PM
Jul 2015

Because that's a stupid fucking strawman.

Unlike Putin, we're not interested in shutting down media we don't like.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
298. Right, just Tag Team DU into submission.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jul 2015

Same people writing the same crapola.

Why don't you show where I'm wrong, then?

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
301. Propagandists are never wrong, and the people that say they are are just teaming up to silence them.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:25 PM
Jul 2015

After all, They don't want you to hear the Truth.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
305. No kidding. That's why I encourage people to read ConsortiumNews and CounterPunch...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:03 PM
Jul 2015

...and any place they want. Then, when they tell me something worth reading, I can read for myself.

That's the opposite of censorship. I thought someone who claims to be a veteran would have learned that in basic training.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
309. I'm sorry, but what military's basic training includes lessons on what is and isn't censorship?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 03:14 PM
Jul 2015

Sure as hell not the USAF. What exactly would lessons on censorship have to do with inprocessing and preparing a recruit to perform his basic duties in the military?

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're just making shit up again. I would think someone who claims to be a journalist would have learned that's a no-no.

Major Nikon

(36,925 posts)
310. They worked it in between folding your drawers in a 6" square and making hospital corners
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 03:22 PM
Jul 2015

You must have slept through it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
365. Well, the source was you.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jul 2015

You told me you learned about nuclear materials in the armed forces.

As for making shit, up, you weren't lying, were you?

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
406. No, but you are yet again.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:06 PM
Jul 2015

I never would have told you I learned about nuclear materials in the armed forces, because that wasn't my job. 1A8 isn't a nuclear field, Octafish. The closest I got to anything nuclear was working on the same base as STRATCOMM.

Even so, what armed forces teaches censorship in its basic training? I love the logic you put in: "NuclearDem said he worked with nuclear materials = Air Force teaches lessons on censorship in basic training."

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
315. Are you a veteran, my friend?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 03:52 PM
Jul 2015

Is that something you yourself learned in basic training?

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
384. So , that's a no then.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:55 PM
Jul 2015

I thought you must be since you have so much knowledge about basic training!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
266. It does show.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:52 AM
Jul 2015

"The highest as the lowest form of criticism is a mode of autobiography." -- Oscar Wilde

carolinayellowdog

(3,247 posts)
335. relentless harassers and cyberstalkers
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:10 PM
Jul 2015

there is a five letter word starting with t we're not allowed to say here for fear of offending relentless harassers and cyberstalkers

 

JEB

(4,748 posts)
285. It certainly appears that some have it in for Octafish.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jul 2015

A healthy democracy needs more than the oligarch financed pablum that is fed to us by the likes of CNN, Fox, NYT, and various other alphabet entertainment outlets more interested in peddling BS and crappy junk from China than any actual investigative journalism. So Octafish, please know that your voice, knowledge and hard work is of great value.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
290. All the usual characters who have always run interference on those who dare ask questions. nt
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:31 PM
Jul 2015
 

JEB

(4,748 posts)
327. What's their deal? Thinking people can read and decide for themselves.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:38 PM
Jul 2015

Kind of like a swarm of mosquitoes, annoying, bothersome and swept away with the slightest breeze of truth.

carolinayellowdog

(3,247 posts)
337. not without the assistance of partisan thought police, they can't
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:18 PM
Jul 2015

got bitten by several skeeters on my front porch while reading this thread, truth

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
402. Yes. Don't ask questions because there is nothing to see here.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:32 PM
Jul 2015

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
391. NPR news chiefs deny they knew of Army interns
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:03 PM
Jul 2015

By Mike Janssen
Originally published in Current, April 17, 2000

Sergeants from a specialized propaganda unit of the U.S. Army interned on NPR news shows over a nine-month period, according to a statement by network President Kevin Klose released last week. The April 10 announcement coincided with the publication of an article in TV Guide that revealed the surprising news.

Similar reports about officers from the 4th Psychological Operations Group (PSYOP) interning at CNN surfaced weeks before the TV Guide article, first in a Dutch newspaper and later in stateside media. Media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting and Nation columnist Alexander Cockburn suggested that the military was spying on CNN and highlighted the rich potential for conflicts of interest. However, CNN and NPR officials agree with a PSYOP spokesman: the interns did not influence the networks' journalism.

"No journalism was committed" by the interns, says NPR Ombudsman Jeffrey Dvorkin, who was v.p. of news when the interns were employed. Dvorkin says the interns answered phones, filed away scripts, and prepared program lists and schedules. Maj. Jonathan Withington, a public affairs officer with the U.S. Army Special Operations Command which includes PSYOP, adds that the interns carried equipment and did "background research," and stresses that they did not influence reporting. Regardless, Dvorkin calls the internships "a real goof."

The first intern at NPR rotated among newsmagazines from September to November 1998. The other two worked for Talk of the Nation, one from January to February 1999, the other from March to May 1999. NPR and Withington would not identify the interns or allow them to be interviewed for this article.

All of the interns were non-commissioned U.S. Army officers from the 4th Psychological Operations Group based at Ft. Bragg, N.C. PSYOP overtly disseminates information supporting U.S. goals and policy to other countries. For example, the unit has placed signs in Colombian airports discouraging drug smuggling. "In civilian terms, it's like working in an ad agency or a public relations firm," Withington says.

The Army began to arrange the internships through NPR's human resources office in February 1998, according to Withington.

NPR spokeswoman Jess Sarmiento says the human resources department, including Vice President for Human Resources Kathleen Jackson, knew the interns worked for PSYOP when it hired them, but thought news staffers had okayed the plan. Dvorkin says he wasn't aware the interns were from PSYOP until a few weeks ago. It's possible that the interns' immediate supervisors knew, but Sarmiento says the PSYOP tie was news to a higher-up, whom she would not name, who learned of it only near the end of the third intern's stint. And Dvorkin says he wasn't aware the interns were from PSYOP until a few weeks ago.

Upon discovering the connection, Sarmiento says, NPR's news department ordered Human Resources to stop hiring PSYOP officers. "Once we discovered it, we said, 'This is not for us,' and so we severed the relationship," Dvorkin says. He adds that the network needs to be more vigilant about hiring news interns in the future. Withington says the interns worked at CNN and NPR to get hands-on experience with technical aspects of news production. After their internships, they reported back to colleagues and shared their experiences. For instance, their feedback helped Ft. Bragg design a new center for media production that will reduce the number of PSYOP officers the Army deploys abroad.

CONTINUED...

http://current.org/files/archive-site/rad/rad007psyop.html

Must pay well, coming up with lies to fool some, if not most, of the people some, if not most, of the time.


Gee. I wonder what they were preparing for, a future world where the Army would be broadcasting news?
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
318. Or sites are not linked to
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 04:12 PM
Jul 2015

It is our lovely language police... and guardians of all that is allowable

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
447. Jean Seberg and the War on Terror
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 11:54 PM
Jul 2015

From CounterPunch, a warning, re Police State:



The government used infiltrators and informers not only to spy on political activists, but also to discredit and disrupt legitimate constitutional protected activities. The FBI and police also waged psychological warfare from the outside–through bogus publications, forged correspondence, anonymous letters, telephone calls etc. They used harassment, intimidation, including eviction, job loss, break-ins, vandalism, grand jury subpoenas, false arrests, frame- ups, and physical violence. Government agents either concealed their involvement or fabricated a legal pretext. In the case of Black and Native American movements, they used outright political assassination. These covert tactics, as shown by the U.S. Senate’s investigation of COINTELPRO included but were not limited to the following:

Bogus leaflets, pamphlets, etc.: The FBI routinely put out phony leaflets, posters, pamphlets, etc. to discredit dissenters. In one instance, agents revised a children’s coloring book that the Black Panther Party had rejected as anti-white and gratuitously violent and then distributed a cruder version to backers of the Party’s program of free breakfasts for children, telling them the book was being used in the program.

False media stories: The FBI’s own documents reveal collusion by reporters and news media that knowingly published false and distorted material prepared by Bureau agents. One such story accused Jean Seberg, a pregnant white film star active in anti-racist causes, of carrying the child of a prominent Black leader. Seberg’s white husband, the actual father, sued the FBI for causing the stillbirth of their child, his wife’s breakdown and eventual suicide.

Forged correspondence: The U.S. Senate’s investigation of COINTELPRO uncovered a series of letters forged in the name of an intermediary between the Black Panther Party’s national office and Panther leader Eldridge Cleaver, in exile in Algeria. The letters proved instrumental in inflaming intra-party rivalries that erupted into the bitter public split that shattered the Party in the winter of 1971.

Anonymous letters and telephone calls: During the 60s, activists received a steady flow of anonymous letters and phone calls, which turned out to have been from government agents. Some threatened violence. Others promoted racial divisions and fears. Still others charged various leaders with collaboration, corruption, sexual affairs with other activists’ mates, etc. As in the Seberg incident, inter-racial sex was a persistent theme. The husband of one white woman involved in a bi-racial civil rights group received the following anonymous letter authored by the FBI: “Look, man, I guess your old lady doesn’t get enough at home or she wouldn’t be shucking and jiving with our Black Men in ACTION, you dig? Like all she wants to integrate is the bedroom and us Black Sisters ain’t gonna take no second best from our men. So lay it on her man–or get her the hell off [name]. A Soul Sister”

False rumors: Using infiltrators, journalists and other contacts, the Bureau circulated slanderous, disruptive rumors through political movements and the communities in which they worked.

Other misinformation: A favorite FBI tactic uncovered by Senate investigators was to misinform people that a political meeting or event had been cancelled. Another was to provide phony addresses for events, stranding out-of-town conference attendees who naturally blamed those who had organized the event. FBI agents also arranged to transport demonstrators in the name of a bogus bus company, which pulled out at the last minute.


Pressure through employers, property owners, etc.: COINTELPRO documents revealed frequent overt contacts and covert manipulation to generate pressure on activists. For example, pressures from parents, proprietors, employers, college administrators, church superiors, welfare agencies, credit bureaus, and licensing authorities to force activist to give up.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/12/03/the-latest-war-on-terrorism/

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
405. Most important thing I've learned on DU: George Herbert Walker Bush in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:00 PM
Jul 2015

We know this because that is what George Herbert Walker Bush told the FBI.

We also know, from the same FBI report, that Poppy heard someone threaten to kill President Kennedy.

So, why did Bush wait until AFTER JFK was assassinated to come foward with the warning?

Here's the document:



Here's a transcript of the text:



TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63

FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL

SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY

At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.

BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.

BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.

BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.

# # #



Here's background:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbushG.htm

Another FBI memo, from a week later, was unearthed just prior to the 1988 election. In it, "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" was debriefed by J Edgar Hoover himself about the Pro- and Anti-Castro Cuban communities in Miami. 1988 Presidential Candidate Vice President ex-DCI ex-China legation head George Bush said "It wasn't me." Surprisingly and contrary to longstanding policy, the agency even released the name of another "George Bush" who worked at CIA for six months or so. That guy was surprised to find reporters on his doorstep and told them he was a photo analyst on loan from another government department and he never was debriefed by J Edgar Hoover, let alone for the anything to with the assassination of President Kennedy.



Here's a transcript of the above:



Date: November 29, 1963

To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State

From: John Edgar Hoover, Director

Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963

Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.

Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.

An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.

The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.

# # #



I do remember that GHWB was head of the CIA when the Church Committee was looking into the CIA assassination programs. He made things all friendly-like and turned what had been a serious hunt for truth under previous DCI Colby into another dog-and-pony show.

So. We wonder why America is in the shape it's in? Austerity for the majority and a state of permanent war, where "money trumps peace."



Octafish

(55,745 posts)
347. No, not if you know history. Ask Hannah Arendt.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:30 AM
Jul 2015
The Last Gasp of American Democracy

By Chris Hedges
TruthDig.org, Posted on Jan 5, 2014

EXCERPT...

The most radical evil, as Hannah Arendt pointed out, is the political system that effectively crushes its marginalized and harassed opponents and, through fear and the obliteration of privacy, incapacitates everyone else. Our system of mass surveillance is the machine by which this radical evil will be activated. If we do not immediately dismantle the security and surveillance apparatus, there will be no investigative journalism or judicial oversight to address abuse of power. There will be no organized dissent. There will be no independent thought. Criticisms, however tepid, will be treated as acts of subversion. And the security apparatus will blanket the body politic like black mold until even the banal and ridiculous become concerns of national security.

I saw evil of this kind as a reporter in the Stasi state of East Germany. I was followed by men, invariably with crew cuts and wearing leather jackets, whom I presumed to be agents of the Stasi—the Ministry for State Security, which the ruling Communist Party described as the “shield and sword” of the nation. People I interviewed were visited by Stasi agents soon after I left their homes. My phone was bugged. Some of those I worked with were pressured to become informants. Fear hung like icicles over every conversation.

The Stasi did not set up massive death camps and gulags. It did not have to. The Stasi, with a network of as many as 2 million informants in a country of 17 million, was everywhere. There were 102,000 secret police officers employed full time to monitor the population—one for every 166 East Germans. The Nazis broke bones; the Stasi broke souls. The East German government pioneered the psychological deconstruction that torturers and interrogators in America’s black sites, and within our prison system, have honed to a gruesome perfection.

[font size="5"][font color="green"]The goal of wholesale surveillance, as Arendt wrote in “The Origins of Totalitarianism,” is not, in the end, to discover crimes, “but to be on hand when the government decides to arrest a certain category of the population.” And because Americans’ emails, phone conversations, Web searches and geographical movements are recorded and stored in perpetuity in government databases, there will be more than enough “evidence” to seize us should the state deem it necessary. This information waits like a deadly virus inside government vaults to be turned against us. It does not matter how trivial or innocent that information is. In totalitarian states, justice, like truth, is irrelevant. [/font green][/font size]

The object of efficient totalitarian states, as George Orwell understood, is to create a climate in which people do not think of rebelling, a climate in which government killing and torture are used against only a handful of unmanageable renegades. The totalitarian state achieves this control, Arendt wrote, by systematically crushing human spontaneity, and by extension human freedom. It ceaselessly peddles fear to keep a population traumatized and immobilized. It turns the courts, along with legislative bodies, into mechanisms to legalize the crimes of state.

CONTINUED...

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_last_gasp_of_american_democracy_20140105

Mira

(22,639 posts)
342. I am proud to reveal
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:31 PM
Jul 2015

that my father and Martin Niemöller were friends and correspondents.
My father was a Methodist, and later a Protestant pastor in Germany. My Mom died last year, on July 26 / today. In her papers I found letters from Niemöller's sons offering her the letters between them from their estate.
I don't think she answered them.
Interesting for me to run across your post on the first anniversary of my Mom's death.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
344. Thank you for sharing that wonderful connection, Mira.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:20 AM
Jul 2015

Dr. Jacques Vallee says we may live in an "Associative Universe," one in which our minds act as a rudder, guiding us in the real world toward destinations and realities that we first have thought about or pre-considered in some way, like a dream. Karl Jung called it "synchronicity," where two seemingly unrelated events occur to reveal an unexpected connection.

An astronomer and computer scientist by training, Dr. Vallee was among the first to apply computers to analyzing the UFO phenomenon when an assistant to the late Dr. J. Allen Hynek of Project BLUEBOOK fame and "swamp gas" notoriety. He describes the "Associative Universe" in detail in "Messengers of Deception," a study of UFO cults and people who manipulate followers and what it means to the greater society as a whole. He had been studying a UFO contactee group called, iirc, "The Order of Melchizedek" for several months. Dr. Vallee's concern arises from the changes to people's belief systems from both, having experienced the phenomenon and those who claim to have some sort of revelation from a higher power. Anyway, the guy was immersed in all things Melchizedek for a few weeks.

On an unrelated matter, Vallee flew to L.A. for a conference and hopped aboard a cab, picking one out of the dozen outside the terminal. When he finally got to his hotel room, he looked at his receipt for the cab ride and it was signed, iirc, John Melchizedek. Vallee looked in the phone book and he was the only Melchizedek in the entire city and suburbs.

The coincidence made him think that, perhaps the universe is organized along the lines of a series of information events. Time and space, rather than acting as a phonograph needle laid down at the beginning of track one and coursing through to the end of the side, may be a series of seemingly unconnected experiences woven together by our consciousness. Thus, our awareness serves to pick up the needle and put it down at different places on the album. A similar situation may exist in data storage systems, where key words help retrieve information faster than having to go through an entire pile of data to find the needle in the info-haystack. For us, our minds act as a sort of rudder, guiding us to the visualized destination, or connecting us in some other ways.

http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/UFO-info-age.html

This is an amazing universe. Perhaps important thoughts are like the clouds moving across the clear blue sky of the Universal Mind. Whenever possible, it really does make sense to visualize peace, justice, understanding and love. It could hasten the day when this becomes the kind of universe good people deserve. Perhaps we can break through the illusion that we are separate from our pasts and our futures long enough to touch what is out of our normal sense of space and time. It is an honor to have helped make ours a little closer world for you and the Niemöller family on this important day.

Mira

(22,639 posts)
354. Thank you for your reply
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:17 AM
Jul 2015

and the information/link I plan to spend some time with. Nothing about synchronicity comes as a surprise to me, it is clearly observable as I live my life, and crops up whenever I pay attention.
Your last paragraph is pure poetry and gives me thoughtful pause.

Last week I stood in front of the Georgia Guidestones, or "American Stonehenge".
Engraved in the granite monoliths, in eight languages, is the following:

Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
Unite humanity with a living new language.
Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
Balance personal rights with social duties.
Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature — Leave room for nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
440. There really have.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:10 PM
Jul 2015

Theory or Life?

by CHARLES R. LARSON
CounterPunch, SEPTEMBER 14, 2012

When Marco Roth was sixteen years old, his parents suggested that he begin seeing a psychiatrist. A couple of years earlier, the boy’s father (a noted hematologist) revealed that he was dying of AIDS and told his son that the diagnosis should be kept within the family. Years earlier, an accidental prick with a needle had infected him. Marco was an only child. Not only was his father a famous academic scientist, but the boy’s mother was a talented pianist. A sentence from the information on the book about the writer states that “Marco Roth was raised among the vanished liberal culture of Manhattan’s Upper West Side.” Jewish, cultured, highly educated. As a boy he was accustomed to house concerts, intellectual discussions with family and guests.

The sessions with the psychiatrist were intended to help Marco adjust to his father’s approaching death. During those final years of his life, Marco’s father aided his son with his high school science projects, provided him with scientific articles to read—especially about possible cures for AIDS—and kept up a running dialogue about literature. There were novels that Marco read because of his father’s recommendations. The tension keeping his father’s approaching death from his peers led the young man to make endless speculations about his parents and refer to the virus as his “microscopic sibling,” the second child his parents never had. His father had contracted the virus when Marco was in the second or third grade.

“That first year of my father’s full-blown AIDS, our kitchen transformed into a medical school cafeteria and a sort of war room where we followed the course of the illness. Blown-up photographs of lesions wound up on the table, a few places down from where we ate spaghetti Bolognese. My father and I practically dared each other to eat while looking at electron microscope slides of nematodes, while my mother left the table in protest, her food untouched, and took refuge at the piano. We studied Kaposi’s sarcoma or looked into the milky, worm-ridden eyes of people suffering from river blindness. These other pictures were there for perspective, as though we were telling ourselves how much worse it could be or was about to get. My father knew that if he’d been African he’d already be dead. But he couldn’t really know what was going to happen to him and he couldn’t really prepare us.”

All this was in the 1980s, when the AIDS pandemic was still in its early stages and there was much more optimism about a cure than there would be later. Marco went off to college (to Oberlin briefly and then on the Columbia) and his father died the second year he was at the university. The young man responded to the death in a slightly aloof manner, in part because his father had repeatedly told him to be his own person. That self-identity might have emerged more easily had he not fallen under the sway of Jacques Derrida and a letter from his aunt (his father’s sister).

SNIP...

The ambivalent feelings about his father continue for several years, as Marco begins his Ph.D. at Columbia and continues to dig into his father’s sexual past. Along the way, The Scientists—which has been a rich, sensitive family memoir—suddenly fuses together the saga of his own marriage and the literary underpinnings of his critical work. Re-reading four novels his father insisted that he read (Thomas Mann’s Tonio Kröger, Samuel Butler’s The Way of All Flesh, Ivan Goncharev’s Oblomov, and Ivan Turgenev’s Fathers and Sons), a path opens up that leads him to a different view of his deceased parent. His father, he realizes, had given him these specific novels as guideposts for his emotional development and—above all—an understanding of the concept of the family.

SNIP...

Marco begins to realize that he is “reading (his) father’s reading.” As he scrupulously analyzes these novels, with the skills of the most demanding literary critic, he understands that it is the enduring correction to literature that has become his father’s legacy, “after hope and all other connection (had been) lost.” In short, he has decoded his father’s character through the books his father recommended, especially Turgenev’s Fathers and Sons.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/09/14/theory-or-life/

What articles do you recommend from CounterPunch, Gothmog? Thanks to DU, others might now get a chance to learn.

edhopper

(37,016 posts)
353. One might think this thread is
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:16 AM
Jul 2015

an example of Goodwin's law.

But it is obviously Poe's Law in action here.

The only rational explanation for Octafish's responses is parody.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
355. One might.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:28 AM
Jul 2015

But only if one can only think in terms of phony internet memes. That's why ConsortiumNews and other news sources are so vital for democracy.

edhopper

(37,016 posts)
356. You see
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:36 AM
Jul 2015

that is just hysterically funny.

"ConsortiumNews is vital for democracy"

terrific stuff, you should write for Cracked.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
357. Speaking of Crack: Washington Post’s Slimy Assault on Gary Webb
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 11:45 AM
Jul 2015

Something most smart people, even those on DU, wouldn't know without ConsortiumNews:



WPost’s Slimy Assault on Gary Webb

Exclusive: The movie, “Kill the Messenger,” portrays the mainstream U.S. news media as craven for destroying Gary Webb rather than expanding on his investigation of the Contra-cocaine scandal. So, now one of those “journalists” is renewing the character assassination of Webb, notes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry
ConsortiumNews, October 18, 2014

Jeff Leen, the Washington Post’s assistant managing editor for investigations, begins his renewed attack on the late Gary Webb’s Contra-cocaine reporting with a falsehood.

Leen insists that there is a journalism dictum that “an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.” But Leen must know that it is not true. Many extraordinary claims, such as assertions in 2002-03 that Iraq was hiding arsenals of WMDs, were published as flat-fact without “extraordinary proof” or any real evidence at all, including by Leen’s colleagues at the Washington Post.

A different rule actually governs American journalism – that journalists need “extraordinary proof” if a story puts the U.S. government or an “ally” in a negative light but pretty much anything goes when criticizing an “enemy.”

If, for instance, the Post wanted to accuse the Syrian government of killing civilians with Sarin gas or blame Russian-backed rebels for the shoot-down of a civilian airliner over Ukraine, any scraps of proof – no matter how dubious – would be good enough (as was the actual case in 2013 and 2014, respectively).

However, if new evidence undercut those suspicions and shifted the blame to people on “the U.S. side” – say, the Syrian rebels and the Ukrainian government – then the standards of proof suddenly skyrocket beyond reach. So what you get is not “responsible” journalism – as Leen tries to suggest – but hypocrisy and propaganda. One set of rules for the goose and another set for the gander.

The Contra-Cocaine Case

Or to go back to the Contra-cocaine scandal that Brian Barger and I first exposed for the Associated Press in 1985: If we were writing that the leftist Nicaraguan Sandinista government – the then U.S. “enemy” – was shipping cocaine to the United States, any flimsy claim would have sufficed. But the standard of proof ratcheted up when the subject of our story was cocaine smuggling by President Ronald Reagan’s beloved Contras.

In other words, the real dictum is that there are two standards, double standards, something that a careerist like Leen knows in his gut but doesn’t want you to know. All the better to suggest that Gary Webb was guilty of violating some noble principle of journalism.

But Leen is wrong in another way – because there was “extraordinary proof” establishing that the Contras were implicated in drug trafficking and that the Reagan administration was looking the other way.

When Barger and I wrote the first story about Contra-cocaine trafficking almost three decades ago, we already had “extraordinary proof,” including documents from Costa Rica, statements by Contras and Contra backers, and admissions from officials in the Drug Enforcement Administration and Ronald Reagan’s National Security Council staff.

However, Leen seems to dismiss our work as nothing but getting “tips” about Contra-cocaine trafficking as if Barger and I were like the hacks at the Washington Post and the New York Times who wait around for authorized handouts from the U.S. government.

Following the Money

Barger and I actually were looking for something different when we encountered the evidence on Contra-cocaine trafficking. We were trying to figure out how the Contras were sustaining themselves in the field after Congress cut off the CIA’s financing for their war.

We were, in the old-fashioned journalistic parlance, “following the money.” The problem was the money led, in part, to the reality that all the major Contra organizations were collaborating with drug traffickers.

Besides our work in the mid-1980s, Sen. John Kerry’s follow-on Contra-cocaine investigation added substantially more evidence. Yet Leen and his cohorts apparently felt no need to pursue the case any further or even give respectful attention to Kerry’s official findings.

Indeed, when Kerry’s report was issued in April 1989, the Washington Post ran a dismissive story by Michael Isikoff buried deep inside the paper. Newsweek dubbed Kerry “a randy conspiracy buff.” In Leen’s new article attacking Gary Webb — published on the front-page of the Washington Post’s Sunday Outlook section — Leen just says:

“After an exhaustive three-year investigation, the committee’s report concluded that CIA officials were aware of the smuggling activities of some of their charges who supported the contras, but it stopped short of implicating the agency directly in drug dealing. That seemed to be the final word on the matter.”

But why was it the “final word”? Why didn’t Leen and others who had missed the scandal as it was unfolding earlier in the decade at least try to build on Kerry’s findings. After all, these were now official U.S. government records. Wasn’t that “extraordinary” enough?

In this context, Leen paints himself as the true investigative journalist who knew the inside story of the Contra-cocaine tale from the beginning. He wrote: “As an investigative reporter covering the drug trade for the Miami Herald, … I wrote about the explosion of cocaine in America in the 1980s and 1990s, and the role of Colombia’s Medellin Cartel in fueling it.

“Beginning in 1985, journalists started pursuing tips about the CIA’s role in the drug trade. Was the agency allowing cocaine to flow into the United States as a means to fund its secret war supporting the contra rebels in Nicaragua? Many journalists, including me, chased that story from different angles, but the extraordinary proof was always lacking.”

Again, what Leen says is not true. Leen makes no reference to the groundbreaking AP story in 1985 or other disclosures in the ensuing years. He just insists that “the extraordinary proof” was lacking — which it may have been for him given his lackluster abilities. He then calls the final report of Kerry’s investigation the “final word.”

But Leen doesn’t explain why he and his fellow mainstream journalists were so incurious about this major scandal that they would remain passive even in the wake of a Senate investigation. It’s also not true that Kerry’s report was the “final word” prior to Webb reviving the scandal in 1996.

Government Witnesses

In 1991, during the narcotics trafficking trial of Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega, the U.S. government itself presented witnesses who connected the Contras to the Medellin cartel.

Indeed, after testimony by Medellin cartel kingpin Carlos Lehder about his $10 million contribution to the Contras, the Washington Post wrote in a Nov. 27, 1991 editorial that “The Kerry hearings didn’t get the attention they deserved at the time” and that “The Noriega trial brings this sordid aspect of the Nicaraguan engagement to fresh public attention.”

But the Post offered its readers no explanation for why Kerry’s hearings had been largely ignored, with the Post itself a leading culprit in this journalistic misfeasance. Nor did the Post and the other leading newspapers use the opening created by the Noriega trial to do anything to rectify their past neglect.

In other words, it didn’t seem to matter how much “extraordinary proof” the Washington Post or Jeff Leen had. Nothing would be sufficient to report seriously on the Contra-cocaine scandal, not even when the U.S. government vouched for the evidence.

So, Leen is trying to fool you when he presents himself as a “responsible journalist” weighing the difficult evidentiary choices. He’s just the latest hack to go after Gary Webb, which has become urgent again for the mainstream media in the face of “Kill the Messenger,” a new movie about Webb’s ordeal.

What Leen won’t face up to is that the tag-team destruction of Gary Webb in 1996-97 – by the Washington Post, the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times – represented one of the most shameful episodes in the history of American journalism.

The Big Papers tore down an honest journalist to cover up their own cowardly failure to investigate and expose a grave national security crime, the Reagan administration’s tolerance for and protection of drug trafficking into the United States by the CIA’s client Contra army.

This journalistic failure occurred even though the Associated Press – far from a radical news outlet – and a Senate investigation (not to mention the Noriega trial) had charted the way.

Leen’s Assault

Contrary to Leen’s column, “Kill the Messenger” is actually a fairly honest portrayal of what happened when Webb exposed the consequences of the Contra cocaine smuggling after the drugs reached the United States. One channel fed into an important Los Angeles supply chain that produced crack.

But Leen tells you that “The Hollywood version of [Webb’s] story — a truth-teller persecuted by the cowardly and craven mainstream media — is pure fiction.”

He then lauds the collaboration of the Big Three newspapers in destroying Webb and creating such enormous pressure on Webb’s newspaper, the San Jose Mercury News, that the executive editor Jerry Ceppos threw his own reporter under the bus. To Leen, this disgraceful behavior represented the best of American journalism.

Leen wrote: “The New York Times, The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times, in a rare show of unanimity, all wrote major pieces knocking the story down for its overblown claims and undernourished reporting.

“Gradually, the Mercury News backed away from Webb’s scoop. The paper transferred him to its Cupertino bureau and did an internal review of his facts and his methods. Jerry Ceppos, the Mercury News’s executive editor, wrote a piece concluding that the story did not meet the newspaper’s standards — a courageous stance, I thought.”

“Courageous”? What an astounding characterization of Ceppos’s act of career cowardice.

But Leen continues by explaining his role in the Webb takedown. After all, Leen was then the drug expert at the Miami Herald, which like the San Jose Mercury News was a Knight Ridder newspaper. Leen says his editors sought his opinion about Webb’s “Dark Alliance” series.

Though acknowledging that he was “envious” of Webb’s story when it appeared in 1996, Leen writes that he examined it and found it wanting, supposedly because of alleged overstatements. He proudly asserts that because of his critical analysis, the Miami Herald never published Webb’s series.

But Leen goes further. He falsely characterizes the U.S. government’s later admissions contained in inspector general reports by the CIA and Justice Department. If Leen had bothered to read the reports thoroughly, he would have realized that the reports actually establish that Webb – and indeed Kerry, Barger and I – grossly understated the seriousness of the Contra-cocaine problem which began at the start of the Contra movement in the early 1980s and lasted through the decade until the end of the war.

Leen apparently assumes that few Americans will take the trouble to study and understand what the reports said. That is why I published a lengthy account of the U.S. government’s admissions – both after the reports were published in 1998 and as “Kill the Messenger” was hitting the theaters in October. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Sordid Contra-Cocaine Saga.”]

Playing It Safe

Instead of diving into the reeds of the CIA and DOJ reports, Leen does what he and his mainstream colleagues have done for the past three decades, try to minimize the seriousness of the Reagan administration tolerating cocaine trafficking by its Contra clients and even obstructing official investigations that threatened to expose this crime of state.

Instead, to Leen, the only important issue is whether Gary Webb’s story was perfect. But no journalistic product is perfect. There are always more details that a reporter would like to have, not to mention compromises with editors over how a story is presented. And, on a complex story, there are always some nuances that could have been explained better. That is simply the reality of journalism, the so-called first draft of history.

But Leen pretends that it is the righteous thing to destroy a reporter who is not perfect in his execution of a difficult story – and that Gary Webb thus deserved to be banished from his profession for life, a cruel punishment that impoverished Webb and ultimately drove him to suicide in 2004.

But if Leen is correct – that a reporter who takes on a very tough story and doesn’t get every detail precisely correct should be ruined and disgraced – what does he tell his Washington Post colleague Bob Woodward, whose heroic Watergate reporting included an error about whether a claim regarding who controlled the White House slush fund was made before a grand jury?

While Woodward and his colleague Carl Bernstein were right about the substance, they were wrong about its presentation to a grand jury. Does Leen really believe that Woodward and Bernstein should have been drummed out of journalism for that mistake? Instead, they were lionized as heroes of investigative journalism despite the error – as they should have been.

Yet, when Webb exposed what was arguably an even worse crime of state – the Reagan administration turning a blind eye to the importation of tons of cocaine into the United States – Leen thinks any abuse of Webb is justified because his story wasn’t perfect.

Those two divergent judgments – on how Woodward’s mistake was understandably excused and how Webb’s imperfections were never forgiven – speak volumes about what has happened to the modern profession of journalism at least in the mainstream U.S. media. In reality, Leen’s insistence on perfection and “extraordinary proof” is just a dodge to rationalize letting well-connected criminals and their powerful accomplices off the hook.

In the old days, the journalistic goal was to “comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable,” but the new rule appears to be: “any standard of proof works when condemning the weak or the despised but you need unachievable ‘extraordinary proof’ if you’re writing about the strong and the politically popular.”

Who Is Unfit?

Leen adds a personal reflection on Webb as somehow not having the proper temperament to be an investigative reporter. Leen wrote:

“After Webb was transferred to Cupertino [in disgrace], I debated him at a conference of the Investigative Reporters and Editors organization in Phoenix in June 1997. He was preternaturally calm. While investigative journalists are usually bundles of insecurities and questions and skepticism, he brushed off any criticism and admitted no error. When asked how I felt about it all, I said I felt sorry for him. I still feel that way.”

It’s interesting – and sadly typical – that while Leen chastises Webb for not admitting error, Leen offers no self-criticism of himself for missing what even the CIA has now admitted, that the Contras were tied up in the cocaine trade. Doesn’t an institutional confession by the CIA’s inspector general constitute “extraordinary proof”?

Also, since the CIA’s inspector general’s report included substantial evidence of Contra-cocaine trafficking running through Miami, shouldn’t Leen offer some mea culpa about missing these serious crimes that were going on right under his nose – in his city and on his beat? What sort of reporter is “preternaturally calm” about failing to do his job right and letting the public suffer as Leen did?

Perhaps all one needs to know about the sorry state of today’s mainstream journalism is that Jeff Leen is the Washington Post’s assistant managing editor for investigations and Gary Webb is no longer with us.

(To learn how you can hear a December 1996 joint appearance at which Robert Parry and Gary Webb discuss their reporting, click here.)

SOURCE with links, details, etc.: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/18/wposts-slimy-assault-on-gary-webb/



What do you know, edhopper, besides what you read in Cracked?

edhopper

(37,016 posts)
371. That's good
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:50 PM
Jul 2015

Only ConsortiumNews, no where else.

No one in the media even mentioned this movie.

I'm not sure if you are going for satire here, or parody, or maybe a Beckettian theatre of the absurd.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
375. So what? Where did the media fall-in when the story broke in 1996?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:06 PM
Jul 2015

Now, who cares, edhopper? The story's forgotten by corporate owned news and a good chunk of the American people. Most importantly, Gary Webb is dead.

Here's why the story matters, for People living in the times Frank Church warned us about:



EXCERPT...

On September 18, the agency released a trove of documents spanning three decades of secret government operations. Culled from the agency’s in-house journal, Studies in Intelligence, the materials include a previously unreleased six-page article titled “Managing a Nightmare: CIA Public Affairs and the Drug Conspiracy Story.” Looking back on the weeks immediately following the publication of “Dark Alliance,” the document offers a unique window into the CIA’s internal reaction to what it called “a genuine public relations crisis” while revealing just how little the agency ultimately had to do to swiftly extinguish the public outcry. Thanks in part to what author Nicholas Dujmovic, a CIA Directorate of Intelligence staffer at the time of publication, describes as “a ground base of already productive relations with journalists,” the CIA’s Public Affairs officers watched with relief as the largest newspapers in the country rescued the agency from disaster, and, in the process, destroyed the reputation of an aggressive, award-winning reporter.

(Dujmovic’s name was redacted in the released version of the CIA document, but was included in a footnote in a 2010 article in the Journal of Intelligence. Dujmovic confirmed his authorship to The Intercept.)

Webb’s troubles began in August 1996, when his employer, the San Jose Mercury News, published a groundbreaking, three-part investigation he had worked on for more than a year. Carrying the full title “Dark Alliance: The Story Behind the Crack Explosion,” Webb’s series reported that in addition to waging a proxy war for the U.S. government against Nicaragua’s revolutionary Sandinista government in the 1980s, elements of the CIA-backed Contra rebels were also involved in trafficking cocaine to the U.S. in order to fund their counter-revolutionary campaign. The secret flow of drugs and money, Webb reported, had a direct link to the subsequent explosion of crack cocaine abuse that had devastated California’s most vulnerable African American neighborhoods.

Derided by some as conspiracy theory and heralded by others as investigative reporting at its finest, Webb’s series spread through extensive talk radio coverage and global availability via the internet, which at the time was still a novel way to promote national news.

Though “Dark Alliance” would eventually morph into a personal crisis for Webb, it was initially a PR disaster for the CIA. In “Managing a Nightmare,” Dujmovic minced no words in describing the potentially devastating effect of the series on the agency’s image:

The charges could hardly be worse. A widely read newspaper series leads many Americans to believe CIA is guilty of at least complicity, if not conspiracy, in the outbreak of crack cocaine in America’s cities. In more extreme versions of the story circulating on talk radio and the internet, the Agency was the instrument of a consistent strategy by the US Government to destroy the black community and keep black Americans from advancing. Denunciations of CIA–reminiscent of the 1970s–abound. Investigations are demanded and initiated. The Congress gets involved.

Dujmovic acknowledged that Webb “did not state outright that CIA ran the drug trade or even knew about it.” In fact, the agency’s central complaint, according to the document, was over the graphics that accompanied the series, which suggested a link between the CIA and the crack scare, and Webb’s description of the Contras as “the CIA’s army” (despite the fact that the Contras were quite literally an armed, militant group not-so-secretly supported by the U.S., at war with the government of Nicaragua).

SNIP...

From the subcommittee report:

On the basis of this evidence, it is clear that individuals who provided support for the Contras were involved in drug trafficking, the supply network of the Contras was used by drug trafficking organizations, and elements of the Contras themselves knowingly received financial and material assistance from drug traffickers. In each case, one or another agency of the U.S. government had information regarding the involvement either while it was occurring, or immediately thereafter.


The chief of the CIA’s Central America Task Force was also quoted as saying, “With respect to (drug trafficking) by the Resistance Forces…it is not a couple of people. It is a lot of people.”

CONTINUED...

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-media-destruction-gary-webb/



Is that what is says in Cracked, edhopper?

edhopper

(37,016 posts)
377. Tell me more about the group that took down
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:24 PM
Jul 2015

ConsortiumNews.
Did they trash the offices and drag away the people there?

If you don't like Cracked you could go for a alt-fiction vibe like V for Vendetta or The Parrelax View.

Is this a concept art thing?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
378. I've spent enough time helping you, edhopper.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:30 PM
Jul 2015

There are some things you only can learn on your own.

edhopper

(37,016 posts)
394. Oh!
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:07 PM
Jul 2015

the superior, condescending tone, I love it!

You do this whacky, internet thing so well.

It's been laughs, thanks.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
396. No the demands are the reason I answered that way.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:09 PM
Jul 2015

Condescension is how you take it. Find out what Alan Watts said about it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
376. Good point. It was also mentioned upthread. Here's why even Putinasta-filled RT matters...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:19 PM
Jul 2015

...It represents another source of information and analysis. So here's just one example of why that matters:



‘Courage is contagious’

Whistleblowing Fantastic Four talk ‘Snowden effect’ on RT

RT, Published time: 11 Oct, 2013 01:13

EXCERPT...

RT:Coleen, you’re an ex-FBI agent yourself, turned whistleblower. Can you, please, tell us about your story? How you were treated?

Coleen Rowley: Well, I was also a legal councilor, who told Constitutional Law to FBI agents and police for 13 years. And so, when you saw this 180-degree switch to the war paradigm and the use of intelligence rather than judicial process, due process, you know, the law of interrogation – I had to speak out and explain the failures of 9/11 and etc. I was still employed in the FBI and I didn’t get fired. I have to say that regrets that I’m aware of usually stand from the fact that people didn’t speak out. The Sam Adams’s story itself is one of somebody, who went through Vietnam and didn’t go public with these concerns. So, it’s quite the opposite that the regret comes from not being able to get this important information about illegal acts, risks to public safety, fraud, waste and abuse.

CONTINUED... w/link to video discussion: http://www.rt.com/op-edge/snowden-russia-whistleblowers-courage-003/



When was the last time you saw any of those four on US television news or mentioned any time in US media?

Had you heard of Coleen Rowley before today, daredtowork?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
386. Is your name daredtowork, too?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:59 PM
Jul 2015

It would explain a lot.

Here's more on Ms. Rowley, missing from TIME and The New York Times:



"What if you lived in a country where, after the Administration negligently failed to prevent a major terrorist attack, they deliberately exploited everyone's fears and utilized shock doctrine to do INSANELY stupid and dangerous things: things like launching costly pre-emptive wars, subverting law, and destroying the checks and balances of the Constitution and common standards of decency by re-instituting torture? Well, We DO live in that country." -- Former FBI special agent and attorny, Coleen Rowley

http://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/coleen-rowley



She also ran for the US Congress in 2006 as a Democrat. The national party, for some reason, didn't seem to give her all the support beating an incumbent required.

The details add so much, don't you think?

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
393. But octafish of DU, I was merely pointing out...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:04 PM
Jul 2015

that virtually everyone had heard of Colleen Rowley before today, and that, yes, the major news outlets had covered her story.



Sid

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
395. Yeah, that must be why daredtowork didn't answer.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:08 PM
Jul 2015

Which was the point of me asking if he or she had heard of Coleen Rowley, not you and everyone who remembers TIME's woman of the year in 2002.

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
410. I was afk and now I'm confused about claims Sid is me? Huh?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:26 PM
Jul 2015

All I was saying was that people often blacklist RT around here. Thom Hartmann is on RT, even though his big soliquies to the middle class unfortunately posit an oppressed lower class. I'm not sure the entire media outlet can be dismissed as a propaganda machine when individual journalusts are highly motivated to establish and maintain reputatiobs of professional credibility.

One can always choose not to watch Alex Jones, just as one can choose not to watch Ancient Aliens on The History Channel. It seems preferable to start REQUIRING media education in middle and high school. This is the 21st century and Idiocracy is proving to be a problem.

By the way, where is Al Jazeera falling on the Dangerous Media List?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
412. SidDithers responded to a question I posed you.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:39 PM
Jul 2015

I am sorry if that was not clear to you. I can understand how people may be by SidDithers of DU's response.

The question I posed to you was: Had you heard of Coleen Rowley before today?

You didn't respond, but the other poster did.

I don't enough about Al Jazeera to make an informed opinion as to where they fit in some media spectrum. I do know they publish information that corporate owned news largely ignore. For example:



Edward Snowden and Washington's revolving-door culture

The recent NSA leak reveals the disturbing extent to which the US' government and corporate sectors have merged.

Nikolas Kozloff
Al Jazeera, 12 Jun 2013

EXCERPT...

Snowden's company, which receives nearly all of its funding from the federal government, is in turn owned by private equity firm Carlyle Group. According to Forbes magazine, the Booz Allen sale has proven very lucrative for Carlyle, netting a whopping $2bn for the firm so far. A corporation known for its ties to insider politicians, Carlyle once employed none other than George Herbert Walker Bush as an adviser. His son George W, meanwhile, served on the board of directors of Carterair, an airline food company which was later acquired by Carlyle.

Private firms find big role in US spy programmes

It's becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between the public and corporate sector in Washington, with Booz Allen employees routinely passing in and out of government. Take, for example, US National Intelligence Director James Clapper, a former executive at Booz Allen. Then there's George Little, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs at the Pentagon, who previously served as an intelligence and business consultant at Booz Allen.

Not surprisingly, such incestuous ties have raised concerns about excessive corporate influence. As early as 2006, the American Civil Liberties Union sounded the alarm bell about the company's growing surveillance profile, noting that Booz Allen had "been at the forefront of a push to increase information collection from the private sector by the government. Several Booz Allen vice presidents, for example, have publicly called for sweeping efforts in that direction, even if it means sacrifice by and regulation of private industry."

Who's running the drug war?

In the coming days, many will undoubtedly call for a scaling back of government contractors and a more thorough accounting on intelligence matters. It may not be so easy, however, to disentangle the thorny web of corporate influence. Indeed, Booz Allen's involvement in intelligence gathering may be just the tip of the iceberg. Not only does the company hold contracts with the FBI, but it also provides IT support to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). What is more, the US Air Force awarded Booz Allen a contract in 2011 to research and design joint operations between the US Northern Command and the Mexican military.

The Booz Allen agenda stands at odds with those of many Latin American nations, which have been calling for a different approach to the drug war. Exhausted by drug-related violence, some countries are arguing that it is time to adopt a less militaristic policy with a possible path to marijuana legalisation. The national security state and Booz Allen, however, have a lot to lose if the drug war abruptly comes to an end. Sounding the alarm bell, Booz Allen officials argue that terrorists and extremists might exploit the lawless Mexican border area and come into the US to launch attacks. Sceptical of such claims, the liberal Nation magazine remarks that Booz Allen is merely "questing much-sought-after but spurious links between al-Qaeda and South American narcotraffickers".

To really reform the intelligence apparatus, the public must first unravel and sort out the nation's Byzantine web of public and private spying interests.

CONTINUED...

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/06/20136128178530929.html



Another question for you: Do you think people in "Western" nations should read "Arab-owned" news media?

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
413. I think people should read/watch whatever they want with a critical eye
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:07 PM
Jul 2015

For instance, I became so disgusted by the dumbed-down corporate filters of American Media (especially after they started passing off PR-produced VNRs as news), that I permanently turned my TV to the Beijing news channel as my news provider of choice.

Of course I know this news is laden with CCP propaganda and likely to cover up major news events occuring in China. The Uighurs will be represented as terrorists, etc. But it is refreshing to see the US news from the perspective of a country that is competing for brownie points with the US, and I can pick up some information about Chinese culture and language while I'm at it.

For once I have to agree with the common populist critique of Democrats: stop treating people like they need to be protected from information. This enables elitism. Give people the tools to evaluate info for themselves instead. People like to feel like they themselves are the smart ones.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
430. Thank you! I don't want you to think what I think. I want you to think for yourself.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 08:15 PM
Jul 2015

The reason for my question is I wanted to gauge if you had heard Ms. Rowley mentioned in the news media. I believe you are a young person, speaking as an "old" DUer, and wondered if you had heard her mentioned on tee vee or print media. Now, I can't gauge your age as well as I assumed because of your answer, the sign of an organized mind is clarity in writing.



Coleen Rowley

FBI Whistleblower

Coleen Rowley brought several of the pre 9/11 lapses to light and testified to the Senate Judiciary Committee on some of the endemic problems facing the FBI and the intelligence community.

Coleen Rowley grew up in a small town in northeast Iowa. She obtained a B.A. degree in French from Wartburg College in Waverly, Iowa and then attended the College of Law at the University of Iowa. She graduated with honors in 1980 and passed the Iowa Bar Exam that summer.

In January of 1981, Ms. Rowley was appointed as a Special Agent with the FBI and initially served in the Omaha, Nebraska and Jackson, Mississippi Divisions. In 1984, she was assigned to the New York Office and for over six years worked on Italian-organized crime and Sicilian heroin drug investigations. During this time, Ms. Rowley also served three separate temporary duty assignments in the Paris, France Embassy and Montreal Consulate.

In 1990, Ms. Rowley was transferred to Minneapolis where she assumed the duties of Chief Division Counsel, which entailed oversight of the Freedom of Information, Forfeiture, Victim-Witness and Community Outreach Programs as well as providing regular legal and ethics training to FBI Agents of the Division and additional outside police training.

In May of 2002, Ms. Rowley brought several of the pre 9/11 lapses to light and testified to the Senate Judiciary Committee on some of the endemic problems facing the FBI and the intelligence community. Ms. Rowley's memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller in connection with the Joint Intelligence Committee's Inquiry led to a two-year-long Department of Justice Inspector General investigation. She was one of three whistleblowers chosen as Person of the Year by TIME magazine.

In April 2003, following an unsuccessful and highly criticized attempt to warn the Director and other administration officials about the dangers of launching the invasion of Iraq, Ms. Rowley stepped down from her (GS-14) legal position to resume her position as a (GS-13) FBI Special Agent. She retired from the FBI at the end of 2004 and now speaks publicly to various groups, ranging from school children to business/professional/civic groups, on two different topics: ethical decision-making and "balancing civil liberties with the need for effective investigation."

Ms. Rowley authored a chapter in a book published in 2004 by the Milton Eisenhower Foundation entitled, Patriotism, Democracy and Common Sense: Restoring America's Promise at Home and Abroad. She is also now an avid blogger on the Huffington Post.

In February 2005, a majority of Minnesota congresspersons and senators nominated Rowley to serve on the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, but she was not selected by the Bush Administration. This Board was mandated by 2004 Federal Intelligence reform legislation implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission.

SOURCE: http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=83



I brought her up to show how the corporate owned news media talk about everything under the sun except pull out, put together, and explain what matters. They used to, but that was before deregulation. Some on DU don't like her mentioned for the same reason mainstream media have her on radio silence: She knows about the crimes of the national security state.
 

bobthedrummer

(26,083 posts)
381. K&R #112 Many are responsive to their perception managers, others are employees brother. n/t
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:35 PM
Jul 2015

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
383. DU owes a great deal of gratitude to you, bobthedrummer...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:52 PM
Jul 2015

...as do all who support, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and the People.



It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread

2-9-2008: It's time for an updated BFEE/NAZI thread

Leaked documents show 9,000 Nazi war criminals fled to South America after World War 2

And that's what the great DUers and mighty DUers strive to do.

Response to Octafish (Original post)

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
417. We close our eyes, we never lose the game...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:20 PM
Jul 2015

Imagination never lets us take the blame.



Sid

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
427. C'mon...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:44 PM
Jul 2015

80's synth pop. What's not to love.

I had this song blaring from the tape deck of my '83 Mercury Lynx, the summer of '86, after graduating from high schooi.

Now you're going to tell me I wasn't cool.



Sid

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
428. Censorship is un-Democratic.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 08:00 PM
Jul 2015
Censorship and Democracy, Vol. 11 - 2004, No. 2

The USA Patriot Act: Coming to Terms with Silenced Voices

Bruce Gronbeck, pages: 37-48

Domestic and international issues of the 1990s form an incendiary combination of controversies that heightened American fears, anger, and sensitivity to the politics of difference and provide the background for the passing of the Patriot Act of 2001. The author argues that censorship occurs with the silencing of voices in a democracy and describes the control of voice in the post-USA Patriot Act era, where the danger of censorial power resides in secrecy combined with indeterminacy.

http://javnost-thepublic.org/article/2004/2/3/

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
431. Does that mean his or her rec disappears, too?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 08:17 PM
Jul 2015

Don't know if he or she was my buddy, but I did appreciate the sentiments expressed.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
438. UBS
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:01 PM
Jul 2015
Rupert Murdoch Gives Voice to Phil Gramm, the Meyer Lansky of the War Party

Which is troubling, considering how UBS hired former Sen. Phil Gramm as Vice Chairman UBS and later former President Bill Clinton, who signed the repeal of Glass-Steagal. Now they specialize in all kinds of Wealth Management for UBS:

http://financialservicesinc.ubs.com/revitalizingamerica/SenatorPhilGramm.html

Strange how things they worked through the legislative process made Gramm and Clinton very wealthy and Rupert Murdoch among the wealthiest who ever lived. What a coincidence!

I'm sure you're doing well, too, zappaman. Was it you working on the rewrite for Punisher IV? If so, good luck with that!

zappaman

(20,627 posts)
439. You mean IBS?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:04 PM
Jul 2015

Hope you feel better!



Irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is a common disorder that affects the large intestine (colon). Irritable bowel syndrome commonly causes cramping, abdominal pain, bloating, gas, diarrhea and constipation. IBS is a chronic condition that you will need to manage long term.

Even though signs and symptoms are uncomfortable, IBS — unlike ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease, which are forms of inflammatory bowel disease — doesn't cause changes in bowel tissue or increase your risk of colorectal cancer.

Only a small number of people with irritable bowel syndrome have severe signs and symptoms. Some people can control their symptoms by managing diet, lifestyle and stress. Others will need medication and counseling.

Punisher IV?
You must have me confused.
Maybe you ran into someone else while dropping off your sci-fi script!
What was it optioned for again?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
441. No, UBS. You should know the Swiss bank received at least $100 billion from US taxpayers.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:32 PM
Jul 2015
UBS Gets $59.2 Billion Bailout

That was in October 2008. Later they played good guys:



UBS: Bank Bailout Good Guy?

—By Corbin Hiar
Mother Jones | Fri Jan. 29, 2010

EXCERPT...

UBS was one of eight large investment banks that benefited from the now-infamous backdoor bailout of AIG—resulting in government cash infusions totaling $182.5 billion—in the dark days of September 2008. At the hearing, the Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program, Neil Barofsky, revealed to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee that UBS was the only bank willing to settle its soured credit default swaps (CDS) contracts for less than their face value. Why did UBS play ball when all the other banks didn't? As the Washington Independent reported, "Barofsky speculated that the firm probably simply recognized that the American taxpayers 'had taken the global economy on its back.'"

SNIP...

Now, even the settlement the Department of Justice extracted from UBS looks to be in jeopardy. To avoid prosecution, UBS immediately paid its fine and disclosed 250 of the promised 4,500 names of holders of the hidden accounts. But the Swiss high court ruled that disclosure a violation of the country's banking secrecy laws. This could prevent the handover of the other secret accounts—and could hinder the US government's efforts to collect the fines owed by their owners. And as it turns out, UBS' offer to accept a lower payout on its bad derivatives bets never came to anything in the end. Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner told the House panel that, even in its weakened state, UBS only offered to bargain "if everybody else would agree to equal concessions on their prices." The other banks that had traded with AIG declined to do so, and so UBS received full payment on its CDS contracts, just like the others.

SOURCE: http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/01/ubs-good-bank-aig-bailout



How often does that get mentioned in the press or your posts, zappaman?

polly7

(20,582 posts)
436. Kick, Octafish. Thank you again.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 08:58 PM
Jul 2015

Because you've given enough information and all those links in this thread to keep me busy reading for hours. And that's just what I'm going to do - have some coffee, put up my feet and read.

Btw ....... I've actually had three hides now for linking to sites that have been used here for years. Most people just have the thread locked. C'est la vie, lol.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
451. Beware Cass Sunstein, who explained why DoJ must let Bush and Cheney off the hook, all legal-like.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jul 2015

Last edited Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)

He is a nice guy, other than that and the other things.



Government Nanny Censoring "Conspiracy Theories" Is Also Responsible for Letting Bush Era Torture and Spying Conspiracies Go Unpunished

Washingtons Blog, Oct. 7, 2010

EXCERPT...

Cass Sunstein was the main adviser to the Obama White House advocating against prosecuting Bush administration officials for torture, illegal spying, and other crimes.

As constitutional expert professor Jonathan Turley wrote in 2008:

Close Obama adviser (and University of Chicago Law Professor) Cass Sunstein recently rejected the notion of prosecuting Bush officials for crimes such as torture and unlawful surveillance.

***

The exchange with Sunstein was detailed by The Nation’s Ari Melber. Melber wrote that Sunstein rejected any such prosecution:

Prosecuting government officials risks a “cycle” of criminalizing public service, [Sunstein] argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton — or even the “slight appearance” of it.

Sunstein did add that “egregious crimes should not be ignored,” according to one site, click here. It is entirely unclear what that means since some of us take the views that any crimes committed by the government are egregious. Those non-egregious crimes are precisely what worries many lawyers who were looking for a simple commitment to prosecute crimes committed by the government.

***
The main concern with Sunstein’s reported comment is how well they fit within the obvious strategy of the Democratic party leaders: to block any prosecution of either President Bush or his aides for crimes while running on those crimes to maintain and expand their power in Washington. The missing component in this political calculus is, of course, a modicum of principle.

***

Here’s the problem about “avoiding appearances.” There seems ample evidence of crimes committed by this Administration, in my view. To avoid appearances would require avoiding acknowledgment of those alleged crimes: precisely what Attorney General Mukasey has been doing by refusing to answer simple legal questions about waterboarding.

How about this for an alternative? We will prosecute any criminal conduct that we find in any administration, including our own. Now, that doesn’t seem so hard. There is no sophistication or finesse needed. One need only to commit to carry out the rule of law.

The combination of Obama’s vote to retroactively grant immunity for the telecoms and Sunstein’s comments are an obvious cause for alarm. We have had almost eight years of legal relativism by both parties. For a prior column on the danger of relativism in presidents, click here A little moral clarity would be a welcomed change.


For further discussion of the Sunstein statements, click here and here.

See also this interview with Keith Olbermann:



Former constitutional lawyer Glenn Greenwald points out:

The aforementioned Obama friend, Cass Sunstein (is also the) protector of Bush lawbreakers, advocate of illegal Bush spying and radical presidential powers, and fierce critic of blogs as "anti-democratic".

Sunstein is also the guy who proposed that the government use its power to suppress "conspiracy theories".

As Greenwald wrote in January:

Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama's closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama's head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs." In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-"independent" advocates to "cognitively infiltrate" online groups and websites -- as well as other activist groups -- which advocate views that Sunstein deems "false conspiracy theories" about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens' faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper's abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.

Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false "conspiracy theories," which they define to mean: "an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role."


As I've previously noted, conspiracies are a well-accepted legal principal, and it is commonly accepted that conspiracies occur every day, and only those conspiracies which involve powerful people are ridiculed as being nutty or dangerous.

So Sunstein is really saying the government should use its power to protect powerful people.

Prosecuting government officials risks a “cycle” of criminalizing public service, (Sunstein) argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton — or even the “slight appearance” of it.

SOURCE w links n details: http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2010/10/main-obama-adviser-blocking-prosecution.html?m=1



A Democrat with many friends who happen to be wealthy.

NuttyFluffers

(6,811 posts)
446. DU is already absurdly insular, conforming will just make it a mouthpiece.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 11:32 PM
Jul 2015

for the website's own health these sort of pledge spirals need to be ignored.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
452. That's about the only reason worth putting up with the abuse of asshats and the emoticon army.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:43 PM
Jul 2015

Democracy.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
454. Well they are entertaining to us that have been here the longest.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:53 PM
Jul 2015

Watched them run off great people and now that their pool is shallow, they have to spew about 9 year old posts from epic posters...cuz you know what bro? They got nothing left, nothing at all. Watching them spiral downward this last year has been a true enjoyment.

When people like Amy Goodman denounce the site, I might pay some attention. Until then, the usual suspects here are just shouting as loud as they can into the wind.

Most of us moved on years ago, funny watching them still bleat like it was GWB days.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
460. *You* have made the years fly by, Rex.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 04:47 PM
Jul 2015

You!



The CIA's History Problem is Our History Problem

David Wallace
Huffington Post, 06/16/2006 Udated: 05/25/2011

EXCERPT...

Such is the case with recent news accounts in the Washington Post and the New York Times that in the late 1950s the CIA knew that Adolf Eichmann was living in Argentina and had a pretty close pseudonym for him (Clemens instead of the actual alias of Klement), but did nothing to bring him to justice. That the CIA sought the cooperation and protection of Nazis, even those guilty of war crimes, after World War Two to serve its Cold War struggles is not news. But the extent of these relationships and the depths the CIA went through to protect them is news. These disclosures have been made possible through the ongoing efforts of the Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group (IWG), launched over eight years ago by the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act (Public Law 105-246). The key that unlocked this unsavory history has been the unparalleled access granted to the IWG into formerly secret government records and archives.

Concern over these disclosures extend beyond the sad facts surfaced by the IWG: such as official protection of Nazis residing in the United States and the CIA's post-war use of top Eichmann aides. They also include the entirely unconscionable fact that it has taken generations for the CIA to disclose this information, and only did so after a special act of Congress supplemented by years long battles to protect them from public knowledge. IWG member Thomas H. Baer pointed to such battles when he thanked the CIA for finally coming clean this past week. However, coming clean occurred only after "reversal of [a six year] policy of thinly veiled noncompliance" with the IWG's legal mandate and the ongoing efforts of members of Congress and (some) IWG members and staff in making an "ironclad case decrying CIAs misinterpretation of its [legal] obligations."

Why has the CIA taken so long to open such records and archives? And do the excuses proffered around protecting national security really hold any credible value? I think the answer to the second question must be no, of course not. As to the first question, that is a trickier one, but one must look beyond the legal loopholes that protect secret information for such inordinate periods and look to see what agendas are at play. Clearly one agenda is to provide a simplistic and comforting (and at times woefully inaccurate) past as a means of enabling an ignorant, but strongly held, patriotism as a form of social glue that (kind of) holds society together. But a simplistic and comforting and inaccurate past can only be realized through the unreasonable, though legal, controls granted to the CIA over its historical records and archives. And it is in these seemingly rationally derived controls that the past itself can be held hostage.

Archives and records are more than just what they would appear to be at face value. They are more than just static documentary objects that record "what happened." In fact, they themselves are desired objects of manipulation and control that go to the heart of what society believes and comes to believe. They often lie at the center of what narratives can be constructed, or not constructed, as a means for making sense or nonsense of our world.

CONTINUED w/links to the fine print...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-wallace/the-cias-history-problem-_b_23206.html



That's the kind of stuff no one apart from seven or eight people on DU and the 40 or 50 hits on HP will muster. But when it comes to Democracy, they matter infinitely more than the millions hynotized by the tee vee.
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
468. They can try and omit history, but fail to remember humans are curious by nature.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:40 PM
Jul 2015

It was always stupid of them to try and pretend transparency, nobody is fooled by it and I don't even know why the CIA pretends to be anything more than the biggest shit stirring organization on the planet. That reputation is well founded by now and they should own it with pride.

History will not be kind to the CIA, not at all and they cannot stand the fact that time doesn't take sides.

We've stayed here Octa, despite all the crap from the 'permanetly outraged at your outrage' swarm. Saw through it way back on DU1 and see no reason to drink the kool aid and agree with them now. They ran off great people and like the CIA, history will not be kind to the shit stirrers either. When has it ever been?

There are two kinds of people Octa, those that learn and those that repeat forever. Thankfully you and I and others never let go of our critical thinking skills in place of permanet outrage. The BFEE lovers did and look at them now. Without a leg to stand on and standing out like sore thumbs.



 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
461. I like to pretend the popularity of a website is simple conspiracy too
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 04:56 PM
Jul 2015

I like to pretend the popularity of a website is simple conspiracy too. It validates my half-witted, sub-literate, under-educated biases far more than reality ever could. Don't even get me started on lunar eclipses only coming an average of four times a year ... (it's part of the moon-bombing campaign).

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
462. Wish I said something when the asshats and emoticon brigade went after Will Pitt.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:04 PM
Jul 2015

Thanks for reminding me, LanternWaste.

 

JEB

(4,748 posts)
464. Thought police swarming Will Pitt as we speak.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:22 PM
Jul 2015

This shit is getting out of hand. What the fuck?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
465. Nothing says ''Democracy'' like SHUT UP!
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:24 PM
Jul 2015

It's like a Flock from Hitchcock, except more Satanic.

 

JEB

(4,748 posts)
466. I dread to imagine
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:29 PM
Jul 2015

the chorus the "swarm" long to hear. Seriously, what are they about and why?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
477. What is the common thread?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:05 PM
Jul 2015

They put down ConsortiumNews, CounterPunch, and fellow DUers. There's no unanimity of opinion within any of those outfits, let alone within the body of work of writers at each.

The issue of censoring diversity of opinion -- at the same time the government is engaged in wall-to-wall domestic surveillance for no good reason -- seems disgusting on an elemental level, JEB, to all Americans. Hannah Arendt said, there's good reason:

The goal of wholesale surveillance, [font color="green"]as (Hannah) Arendt wrote in “The Origins of Totalitarianism,” is not, in the end, to discover crimes, “but to be on hand when the government decides to arrest a certain category of the population.” [/font color]And because Americans’ emails, phone conversations, Web searches and geographical movements are recorded and stored in perpetuity in government databases, there will be more than enough “evidence” to seize us should the state deem it necessary. This information waits like a deadly virus inside government vaults to be turned against us. It does not matter how trivial or innocent that information is. In totalitarian states, justice, like truth, is irrelevant.

Chris Hedges, The Last Gasp of American Democracy


The great DUer H2O Man reminded us about history untaught and unreported: The admiral on the right in the picture below ran a spy operation on the president at left.



The reason? He and the Joint Chiefs thought Nixon was going soft on communism. What business is that of theirs, nobody asked?



Al Haig, The NSC and the White House Spy Ring: The Nixon Story You Never Heard

Joan Hoff
Montana State University, Jan. 2014, M

EXCERPT...

Over three decades ago on December 21, 1971, Richard Nixon approved the first major cover-up of his administration. He did so reluctantly at the behest of his closest political advisers, Attorney General John Mitchell, Domestic Counselor John Ehrlichman, and Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman. The public remains ignorant of this seminal event in Nixon’s first term and journalists and historians have largely ignored it. The question is why? A recently released Nixon tape transcribed from an enhanced CD produced by the Nixon Era Center provides the clearest answer to this thirty-year-old Nixon secret.

On that December day Nixon agreed to cover-up a criminally insubordinate spying operation conducted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff inside the National Security Council because of the military’s strong, visceral dislike of Nixon’s foreign policy. In particular, the JCS thought Nixon gone “soft on communism” by reaching out to the Chinese and Russians, and they resented Vietnamization as a way to end the war.

As early as 1976 Admiral Elmo Zumwalt publicly made these military suspicions and resentment abundantly clear in his book, On Watch: A Memoir. “I had first become concerned many months before the June 1972 burglary,” Zumwalt wrote, “(about) the deliberate, systematic and, unfortunately, extremely successful efforts of the President, Henry Kissinger, and a few subordinate members of their inner circle to conceal, sometimes by simple silence, more often by articulate deceit, their real policies about the most critical matters of national security.” In a word, Zumwalt, like many within the American military elite, thought that Nixon’s foreign policies bordered on the traitorous because they “were inimical to the security of the United States.”

This atmosphere of extreme distrust led Admiral Thomas Moorer, head of the JCS, to first authorize Rear Admiral Rembrandt C. Robinson and later Rear Admiral Robert O. Welander, both liaisons between the Joint Chiefs and the White House’s National Security Council, to start spying on the NSC. For thirteen months, from late 1970 to late 1971, Navy Yeoman Charles E. Radford, an aide to both Robinson and Welander, systematically stole and copied NSC documents from burn bags containing carbon copies, briefcases, and desks of Henry Kissinger, Alexander Haig, and their staff. He then turned them over to his superiors.

SNIP...

The most striking aspect of this tape is the passive role played by Nixon–the so-called original imperial president. First, he is out-talked by the others throughout this fifty-two-minute conversation. Toward the end of tape, the president can be heard saying to his advisers in a loud voice that the JCS spy activity was “wrong! Understand? I’m just saying that’s wrong. Do you agree?” A little later he called it a “federal offense of the highest order.” Up to this point, however, John Mitchell told the president that “the important thing is to paper this thing over” because “this Welander thing . . . Is going to get right into the middle of Joint Chiefs of Staff.”

In other words, Nixon would have to take on the entire military command if he exposed the spy ring. Moreover, this expose would take place in an election year and when the president had scheduled trips to both China and the Soviet Union to confirm improved relations with these countries–which the military opposed. Taking on the military establishment with such important political and diplomatic events on the horizon could have proven disastrous for the president’s most important objectives and revealed other back-channel diplomatic activities of the administration. Later in his memoirs the president said that the media would have completely distorted the incident and exposure would have done “damage to the military at time when it was already under heavy attack.”

In contrast, at the time all three men agreed with Nixon about the seriousness of the crime committed by the JCS. Mitchell even compared it to “coming in (to the president's office) and robbing your desk.” However, they advised him to do no more than to inform Moorer that the White House knew about the JCS spy ring, to interview Welander (who was later transferred to sea duty), and to transfer Radford. Moorer subsequently denied obtaining any information from purloined documents, fallaciously claiming that Nixon kept him fully informed about all his foreign policy initiatives. If this had been true there would have been no need for Moorer to set up a spy ring. Welander, for his part according to this tape, had initially refused to answer questions about the spying he was supervising on the questionable grounds that he had a “personal and confidential relationship” with both Kissinger and Haig.

CONTINUED...

http://spikethenews.blogspot.com/2014/01/al-haig-nsc-and-white-house-spy-ring.html



Yeoman Radford stole from Henry Kissinger's briefcase on secret trip to China...



...in all he may've copied more than 10,000 documents.

"I didn't know he screened through the thing, but I knew he did carry 'em to me and I just returned from San Clemente and I had been told every damn thing that was in there...I gave the things back to (Alexander) Haig." -- Thomas H. Moorer, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

SOURCE: http://nixontapes.org/welander.html



History shows that the brass hats who run the Pentagon are just as liable as any lowly journalist to forget for whom they work. Thanks to NSA and all the rest of the oxymoronic alphabet soup of an Military Industrial Intelligence Community, while we don't need to remind them what we think of that, as they're listening and reading just about everything that's transmitted, they know. We do need to remind them of who's the boss. And as long as there's a Constitution, We the People will.

A few years later, after Watergate exposed -- and focused exclusively on Nixon's depravity -- we learned that CIA and FBI and who knows what else were running rogue "in the name of fighting communism." Great. Sounds scary. Profitable, too.

Frank Church warned us in 1975 about the secret government and secret spy powers and how they would impact DEMOCRACY.

Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) was a patriot, a hero and a statesman, truly a great American.

The guy also led the last real investigation of CIA, NSA and FBI. When it came to NSA Tech circa 1975, he definitely knew what he was talking about:

[font color="blue"]“That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”[/font color]

-- Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) FDR New Deal, Liberal, Progressive, World War II combat veteran. A brave man, the NSA was turned on him. Coincidentally, he narrowly lost re-election the next cycle.


And what happened to Church, for his trouble to preserve Democracy:

In 1980, Church will lose re-election to the Senate in part because of accusations of his committee’s responsibility for Welch’s death by his Republican opponent, Jim McClure.

SOURCE: http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=frank_church_1


From GWU's National Security Archives:



"Disreputable if Not Outright Illegal": The National Security Agency versus Martin Luther King, Muhammad Ali, Art Buchwald, Frank Church, et al.

Newly Declassified History Divulges Names of Prominent Americans Targeted by NSA during Vietnam Era

Declassification Decision by Interagency Panel Releases New Information on the Berlin Crisis, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Panama Canal Negotiations


National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 441
Posted – September 25, 2013
Originally Posted - November 14, 2008
Edited by Matthew M. Aid and William Burr

Washington, D.C., September 25, 2013 – During the height of the Vietnam War protest movements in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the National Security Agency tapped the overseas communications of selected prominent Americans, most of whom were critics of the war, according to a recently declassified NSA history. For years those names on the NSA's watch list were secret, but thanks to the decision of an interagency panel, in response to an appeal by the National Security Archive, the NSA has released them for the first time. The names of the NSA's targets are eye-popping. Civil rights leaders Dr. Martin Luther King and Whitney Young were on the watch list, as were the boxer Muhammad Ali, New York Times journalist Tom Wicker, and veteran Washington Post humor columnist Art Buchwald. Also startling is that the NSA was tasked with monitoring the overseas telephone calls and cable traffic of two prominent members of Congress, Senators Frank Church (D-Idaho) and Howard Baker (R-Tennessee).

SNIP...

Another NSA target was Senator Frank Church, who started out as a moderate Vietnam War critic. A member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee even before the Tonkin Gulf incident, Church worried about U.S. intervention in a "political war" that was militarily unwinnable. While Church voted for the Tonkin Gulf resolution, he later saw his vote as a grave error. In 1965, as Lyndon Johnson made decisions to escalate the war, Church argued that the United States was doing "too much," criticisms that one White House official said were "irresponsible." Church had been one of Johnson's Senate allies but the President was angry with Church and other Senate critics and later suggested that they were under Moscow's influence because of their meetings with Soviet diplomats. In the fall of 1967, Johnson declared that "the major threat we have is from the doves" and ordered FBI security checks on "individuals who wrote letters and telegrams critical of a speech he had recently delivered." In that political climate, it is not surprising that some government officials eventually nominated Church for the watch list.[10]

SOURCE: http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB441/



I wonder if Sen. Richard Schweiker (R-CT), a liberal Republican, also got the treatment from NSA?

“I think that the report, to those who have studied it closely, has collapsed like a house of cards, and I think the people who read it in the long run future will see that. I frankly believe that we have shown that the [investigation of the] John F. Kennedy assassination was snuffed out before it even began, and that the fatal mistake the Warren Commission made was not to use its own investigators, but instead to rely on the CIA and FBI personnel, which played directly into the hands of senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up.” — Senator Richard Schweiker on “Face the Nation” in 1976.

Lost to History NOT, thanks to people who care. Unfortunately, the secret government continues to stonewall Justice, even there. Under that rock is where we find buried Lady Liberty. If there's a pulse, God, let's get her to safety.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
482. Something never on TV: Nixon assigned a murderous Secret Service agent to protect Ted Kennedy.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:14 PM
Jul 2015

The history is why I never denigrate people with labels, like "CT." It is a loaded term, designed to poison the person as a source of information and news. Here's the treasonous, murderous reality of the "Unindicted Co-Conspirator" of Watergate fame:

Nixon approved hiring a Secret Service man who said he'd 'kill on command' to guard Ted Kennedy. You can hear Nixon and Haldeman discuss it, about 40 minutes into the HBO documentary "Nixon by Nixon." While I had read the part of the transcript available years ago, and wrote about it on DU, almost no one I know has heard anything about it.



Ted Kennedy survived Richard Nixon's Plots

By Don Fulsom

In September 1972, Nixon’s continued political fear, personal loathing, and jealously of Kennedy led him to plant a spy in Kennedy’s Secret Service detail.

The mole Nixon selected for the Kennedy camp was already being groomed. He was a former agent from his Nixon’s vice presidential detail, Robert Newbrand—a man so loyal he once pledged he would do anything—even kill—for Nixon.

The President was most interested in learning about the Sen. Kennedy’s sex life. He wanted, more than anything, stated Haldeman in The Ends of Power, to “catch (Kennedy) in the sack with one of his babes.”

In a recently transcribed tape of a September 8, 1972 talk among the President and aides Bob Haldeman and Alexander Butterfield, Nixon asks whether Secret Service chief James Rowley would appoint Newbrand to head Kennedy’s detail:

Haldeman: He's to assign Newbrand.

President Nixon: Does he understand that he's to do that?

Butterfield: He's effectively already done it. And we have a full force assigned, 40 men.

Haldeman: I told them to put a big detail on him (unclear).

President Nixon: A big detail is correct. One that can cover him around the clock, every place he goes. (Laughter obscures mixed voices.)

President Nixon: Right. No, that's really true. He has got to have the same coverage that we give the others, because we're concerned about security and we will not assume the responsibility unless we're with him all the time.

Haldeman: And Amanda Burden (one of Kennedy’s alleged girlfriends) can't be trusted. (Unclear.) You never know what she might do. (Unclear.)

Haldeman then assures the President that Newbrand “will do anything that I tell him to … He really will. And he has come to me twice and absolutely, sincerely said, "With what you've done for me and what the President's done for me, I just want you to know, if you want someone killed, if you want anything else done, any way, any direction …"

President Nixon: The thing that I (unclear) is this: We just might get lucky and catch this son-of-a-bitch and ruin him for '76.

Haldeman: That's right.

President Nixon: He doesn't know what he's really getting into. We're going to cover him, and we are not going to take "no" for an answer. He can't say "no." The Kennedys are arrogant as hell with these Secret Service. He says, "Fine," and (Newbrand) should pick the detail, too.


Toward the end of this conversation, Nixon exclaims that Newbrand’s spying “(is) going to be fun,” and Haldeman responds: “Newbrand will just love it.”

Nixon also had a surveillance tip for Haldeman for his spy-to-be: “I want you to tell Newbrand if you will that (unclear) because he's a Catholic, sort of play it, he was for Jack Kennedy all the time. Play up to Kennedy, that "I'm a great admirer of Jack Kennedy." He's a member of the Holy Name Society. He wears a St. Christopher (unclear).” Haldeman laughs heartily at the President’s curious advice.

Despite the enthusiasm of Nixon and Haldeman, Newbrand apparently never produced anything of great value. When this particular round of Nixon’s spying on Kennedy was uncovered in 1997, The Washington Post quoted Butterfield as saying periodic reports on Kennedy's activities were delivered to Haldeman, but that Butterfield did not think any potentially damaging information was ever dug up.

SOURCE:

http://surftofind.com/tedkennedy



Why does that matter? The Warren Commission, and the nation's mass media, never heard about the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro until the Church Committee in 1975. You'd think that would be a matter of concern to all Americans, especially considering how then-vice president Nixon was head of the "White House Action Team" that contacted the Mafia for murder.

This is the sort of information citizens of a democracy shouldn't have to search ConsortiumNews or CounterPunch to learn. It should be taught in school, or at the least, discussed in the nation's mass media. I certainly think it's unfair for people -- especially those who consider themselves Democrats or democrats -- to label those interested in such subjects "Conspiracy Theorists" and whatever else the haters and the asshats of the emoticon brigade can think of.

PS: Thank you for a post well said, robertpaulsen! Fuck 'em.

robertpaulsen

(8,697 posts)
509. Shocking, yet fits perfectly with what we know of Nixon's paranoid tendencies.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 06:17 PM
Jul 2015

It also dovetails neatly with Howard Hunt's role in Watergate attempting to dig up dirt on Kennedy. Woodward and Bernstein mentioned how Newbrand was part of that obsession, but neglected to mention that Newbrand was willing to kill for those traitors.

Damn right, it matters. And your efforts to educate and bring these issues to light are one of the main reasons I still poke my head around these parts. Keep it up, Octafish!

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
484. You know.. not every opinion is equal.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:23 PM
Jul 2015

When you treat 'both sides' as deserving of the same consideration, you end up with..

Well let's see: acupuncture, aliens, atlantis, chem trails, grassy knolls, fairies, 'pyramid power'.. garbage like that.

Some opinions are just shit and don't deserve to be considered. 99 monkeys banging on typewriters for 99 years can eventually write a conspiracy theory that some folks will swallow, hook, line, and sinker?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
489. Both sides, like the time the New York Times did what CIA wanted?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:38 PM
Jul 2015

Wasn't that long ago:



Correspondence and collusion between the New York Times and the CIA

Mark Mazzetti's emails with the CIA expose the degradation of journalism that has lost the imperative to be a check to power

Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 29 August 2012 14.58 EDT

EXCERPT...

But what is news in this disclosure are the newly released emails between Mark Mazzetti, the New York Times's national security and intelligence reporter, and CIA spokeswoman Marie Harf. The CIA had evidently heard that Maureen Dowd was planning to write a column on the CIA's role in pumping the film-makers with information about the Bin Laden raid in order to boost Obama's re-election chances, and was apparently worried about how Dowd's column would reflect on them. On 5 August 2011 (a Friday night), Harf wrote an email to Mazzetti with the subject line: "Any word??", suggesting, obviously, that she and Mazzetti had already discussed Dowd's impending column and she was expecting an update from the NYT reporter.

SNIP...

Even more amazing is the reaction of the newspaper's managing editor, Dean Baquet, to these revelations, as reported by Politico's Dylan Byers:

"New York Times Managing Editor Dean Baquet called POLITICO to explain the situation, but provided little clarity, saying he could not go into detail on the issue because it was an intelligence matter.

CONTINUED with LINKS...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/29/correspondence-collusion-new-york-times-cia



It's like, tradition at NYT.



The CIA and the Media

How Americas Most Powerful News Media Worked Hand in Glove with the Central Intelligence Agency and Why the Church Committee Covered It Up

After leaving The Washington Post in 1977, Carl Bernstein spent six months looking at the relationship of the CIA and the press during the Cold War years. His 25,000-word cover story, published in Rolling Stone on October 20, 1977, is reprinted below.

By Carl Bernstein

October 20, 1977 In 1953, Joseph Alsop, then one of America’s leading syndicated columnists, went to the Philippines to cover an election. He did not go because he was asked to do so by his syndicate. He did not go because he was asked to do so by the newspapers that printed his column. He went at the request of the CIA.

Alsop is one of more than 400 American journalists who in the past twenty‑five years have secretly carried out assignments for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to documents on file at CIA headquarters. Some of these journalists’ relationships with the Agency were tacit; some were explicit. There was cooperation, accommodation and overlap. Journalists provided a full range of clandestine services—from simple intelligence gathering to serving as go‑betweens with spies in Communist countries. Reporters shared their notebooks with the CIA. Editors shared their staffs. Some of the journalists were Pulitzer Prize winners, distinguished reporters who considered themselves ambassadors without‑portfolio for their country. Most were less exalted: foreign correspondents who found that their association with the Agency helped their work; stringers and freelancers who were as interested in the derring‑do of the spy business as in filing articles; and, the smallest category, full‑time CIA employees masquerading as journalists abroad. In many instances, CIA documents show, journalists were engaged to perform tasks for the CIA with the consent of the managements of America’s leading news organizations...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28610.htm



And, thanks to Scooter Libby and NYT reporter Judith Miller's thing while exposing a CIA NOC Valerie Plame to intimidate whistleblowers like her husband Amb. Joseph Wilson, we get to see the reality:



"Think of the Aspens," Scooter Libby reminded Judy Miller, then an imprisoned NYT reporter, "they're all connected." Yes, underground.



Then, that wasn't the first time the Corporate Owned News helped lie America into war on Iraq. Remember the first Iraq War? If you don't, know that the War Party pulled out all the stops and spared no expense to build public support for their war of choice:



"I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital," Nayirah said. "While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where ... babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor to die."



Turned out the "15-year old hospital volunteer" Nayirah really was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to Washington when she testified to Congress.

"If I wanted to lie, or if we wanted to lie, if we wanted to exaggerate, I wouldn't use my daughter to do so. I could easily buy other people to do it." -- Kuwait Ambassador

That was 1990. Here's the story:

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html



I don't recall New York Times bringing any of that up in 2002 when helping lead the run-up to Iraq War II, do you?

Sorry if that fails to fully address your POV towards less-equal sources that do support "acupuncture, aliens, atlantis, chem trails, grassy knolls, fairies, 'pyramid power'.. garbage like that," but I don't really care. Intelligent people get the point.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
499. Mass Media ignoring 'RFK Believed in Conspiracy' shows corrupt nature of America's Press
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 10:39 AM
Jul 2015

Here's where we can directly see the corrupt nature of America's "news media."



Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his sister Rory Kennedy told Charlie Rose that their father, the Attorney General of the United States, Robert F. Kennedy, believed there was a conspiracy behind the death of his brother, President John F. Kennedy. For the first time in almost 50 years, members of the slain president's family were on the record about their father's thoughts about the assassination.

The story made news, as it were, for a day or two -- it was on page 8 here in Detroit (try finding it using The Free Press or Detroit News web site search engines) -- and apart from several threads on DU, that's about it as coverage goes. The Charlie Rose interview was part of a program put together by the media and good people in Dallas to celebrate JFK's life.

What bothers me about the media coverage is the constant attack, not on the government's lousy investigation of the assassination and its attendant cover-up, but, rather, the attack on anyone who brings up the subject of conspiracy in the death of the president, even when it's children of attorney general who also was the brother of the slain president.

Check out this condescending piece of opinion from the Dallas Observer:



Not Even Charlie Rose Could Rein in RFK Jr. in Dallas Last Night. Also: Conspiracy Theories!

By Betsy Lewis Sat., Jan. 12 2013 at 11:01 AM

It got weird when he went into a historical lecture about his father's investigation into the JFK assassination. He was speaking about it as if he had been part of it, then cited a book called The Unspeakable by Jim Douglas (sic - actually "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters" by James Douglass) as being the best book on the subject, then kept referencing things from the book. He was losing the audience, so he burst out, "My father believed that the Warren Report was a shoddy piece of craftsmanship," to the delighted applause of the mostly Baby Boomer audience.

Whenever Charlie Rose would ask about the family, RFK Jr. would evade the question until he heard either delighted Boomer applause or delighted Boomer laughter. One of his responses to a family question was an unrelated story about World War II. A lady behind me who must have recently Netflixed The Iron Lady kept saying, "Here here!" for the benefit of us unfortunate people around her.
Some of the strangest RFK Jr. outbursts with the biggest applause were:

"We're becoming a national security state!" (applause, "Here here!&quot

"Corporations want profits!" (applause, "Here here!&quot

"Corporations are great things, but we'd be nuts to let them run our government!" (applause, "Here here!&quot

"Nationalism in Africa! The end of colonialism!"

At this point, I don't think anyone knew what the hell he was talking about. It was something about the Kennedy family airlifting President Obama's father out of Kenya to begin a new life in America.

RFK Jr.: "Yes."

CONTINUED...

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/mixmaster/2013/01/charlie_rose_live_the_kennedy.php



Me, I don't believe any of that stuff was "out there." Why writer Betsy Lewis chooses to believe what the media tell her is true I'll guess lies in allegiance to a pay check.

Likewise for the lack of coverage given the story in the national media, where the same few corporations that swore up and down there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, both in 1990 and 2002, now want no part of "conspiracy talk" during the 50th anniversary observance. So far, as far as I'm aware, the Charlie Rose program has not aired.

What's more telling is what didn't get noted in the nation's corrupt mass media at all: The fact that Attorney General and later Senator Robert F. Kennedy also was assassinated. Some think that was a coincidence, because the mass media told them so. One thing's for certain, the questions still surrounding the deaths of two liberal icons doesn't get discussed at all today in our supposedly "free press."

Original OP Feb. 22, 2013

PS: Thank you, Uncle Joe! Every time I read your name, my heart feels light as a feather.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
503. What if they come for your retirement? Whatchagonnado?
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jul 2015
Taking on the 1%

Why We Need to Ditch Austerity Policies

by BENJAMIN DANGL
CounterPunch, APRIL 23, 2015

EXCERPT...

Anti-Austerity

SNIP...

Austerity is trumpeted by many politicians as a necessary, though painful step to ensure long term economic viability. But it’s simply a way of perpetuating, rather than challenging, capitalist business as usual, a business in which the global 1% get richer and richer while schools go without sufficient funding and workers get laid off.

Governments enacting austerity measures are protecting the 1% and global capitalism. And the 1% has more than its fair share of influence in government policy development. Oxfam reports that the global elite “spent $550 million lobbying policy makers in Washington and Brussels during 2013. During the 2012 US election cycle alone, the financial sector provided $571 million in campaign contributions.”

Meanwhile, according the Harvard Business School, CEOs in America currently make 350 times what the average worker makes, and 774 times as much as minimum wage workers. Such a concentration of wealth not only takes place with impunity in America, it is encouraged as part of free market ideology.

Since 1979, Americans have increased productivity by 80 percent. Yet, according to Forbes, income has not increased at the same rate, if it has increased at all. Furthermore, “the rich spend about 17 percent of their income traveling for business and pleasure” while “the lower classes spend about 17 percent of their income on feeding their families.”

Inequality is not a symptom of the ills of global capitalism, it is its fuel. Austerity measures won’t change this; they simply maintain an unjust system that needs to be transformed from the bottom up. The global 1% and their allies in government need to be confronted and overturned. The entire system needs to be overhauled in a way that puts people, not profits and greed, first.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/04/23/why-we-need-to-ditch-austerity-policies/

Mc Mike

(9,248 posts)
511. Rec ced as usual. Thanks Octa.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 07:39 PM
Jul 2015

It's an odd inversion, when probably the strongest anti-nazi post-er around gets tarred, by rofl posting rascals, with vague claims of 'posting anti-semitic' ideas or authors.

Stinks like Karl rove.

And that crowd posts nothing here but rofls.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
536. Wall Street and War Inc. are where the really Big Bucks go to get made.
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 09:32 AM
Aug 2015

Thank you for noticing, McMike! Sometimes a fortune rests on a mere scrap of information, like in a "Fistful of Dollars."





CIA moonlights in corporate world

In the midst of two wars and the fight against Al Qaeda, the CIA is offering operatives a chance to peddle their expertise to private companies on the side — a policy that gives financial firms and hedge funds access to the nation’s top-level intelligence talent, POLITICO has learned.

In one case, these active-duty officers moonlighted at a hedge-fund consulting firm that wanted to tap their expertise in “deception detection,” the highly specialized art of telling when executives may be lying based on clues in a conversation.

The never-before-revealed policy comes to light as the CIA and other intelligence agencies are once again under fire for failing to “connect the dots,” this time in the Christmas Day bombing plot on Northwest Flight 253.

SNIP...

But the close ties between active-duty and retired CIA officers at one consulting company show the degree to which CIA-style intelligence gathering techniques have been employed by hedge funds and financial institutions in the global economy.

The firm is called Business Intelligence Advisors, and it is based in Boston. BIA was founded and is staffed by a number of retired CIA officers, and it specializes in the arcane field of “deception detection.” BIA’s clients have included Goldman Sachs and the enormous hedge fund SAC Capital Advisors, according to spokesmen for both firms.

CONTINUED...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/32290.html#ixzz0eIFPhHBh





Then there's the signature tradition of playing both sides off the middle, like selling rifles to both the Allies and the Central Powers during World War I, or the bounty hunters in "For a Few Dollars More" getting one inside to work out.



Stratfor: executive boasted of 'trusted former CIA cronies'

By Alex Spillius, Diplomatic Correspondent
9:08PM GMT 28 Feb 2012
The Telegraph

A senior executive with the private intelligence firm Stratfor boasted to colleagues about his "trusted former CIA cronies" and promised to "see what I can uncover" about a classified FBI investigation, according to emails released by the WikiLeaks.

Fred Burton, vice president of intelligence at the Texas firm, also informed members of staff that he had a copy of the confidential indictment on Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks.

The second batch of five million internal Stratfor emails obtained by the Anonymous computer hacking group revealed that the company has high level sources within the United States and other governments, runs a network of paid informants that includes embassy staff and journalists and planned a hedge fund, Stratcap, based on its secret intelligence.

SNIP...

Mr Assange labelled the company as a "private intelligence Enron", in reference to the energy giant that collapsed after a false accounting scandal.

CONTINUED...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9111784/Stratfor-executive-boasted-of-trusted-former-CIA-cronies.html





Then, there's Booz Allen, NSA's go-to private spyhaus, vacuums and filters the right stuff for Carlyle Group, a buy-partisan business which always seems to know where and what to bomb and make a buck, but the lines between sides turned out be fuzzy and amorphous nebula-like -- like in "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly."



The Knights of the Revolving Door

When War is Swell: the Carlyle Group and the Middle East at War

by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
CounterPunch, Weekend Edition September 6-8, 2013

Paris.

A couple of weeks ago, in a dress rehearsal for her next presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton, the doyenne of humanitarian interventionism, made a pit-stop at the Carlyle Group to brief former luminaries of the imperial war rooms about her shoot-first-don’t-ask-questions foreign policy.

For those of you who have put the playbill of the Bush administration into a time capsule and buried it beneath the compost bin, the Carlyle Group is essentially a hedge fund for war-making and high tech espionage. They are the people who brought you the Iraq war and all those intrusive niceties of Homeland Security. Call them the Knights of the Revolving Door, many of Carlyle’s executives and investors having spent decades in the Pentagon, the CIA or the State Department, before cashing in for more lucrative careers as war profiteers. They are now licking their chops at the prospect for an all-out war against Syria, no doubt hoping that the conflagration will soon spread to Lebanon, Jordan and, the big prize, Iran.

For a refresher course on the sprawling tentacles of the Carlyle Group, here’s an essay that first appeared in CounterPunch’s print edition in 2004. Sadly, not much has changed in the intervening years, except these feted souls have gotten much, much richer. – JSC

Across all fronts, Bush’s war deteriorates with stunning rapidity. The death count of American soldiers killed in Iraq will soon top 1000, with no end in sight. The members of the handpicked Iraqi Governor Council are being knocked off one after another. Once loyal Shia clerics, like Ayatollah Sistani, are now telling the administration to pull out or face a nationalist insurgency. The trail of culpability for the abuse, torture and murder of Iraqi detainees seems to lead inexorably into the office of Donald Rumsfeld. The war for Iraqi oil has ended up driving the price of crude oil through the roof. Even Kurdish leaders, brutalized by the Ba’athists for decades, are now saying Iraq was a safer place under their nemesis Saddam Hussein. Like Medea whacking her own kids, the US turned on its own creation, Ahmed Chalabi, raiding his Baghdad compound and fingering him as an agent of the ayatollahs of Iran. And on and on it goes.

Still not all of the president’s men are in a despairing mood. Amid the wreckage, there remain opportunities for profit and plunder. Halliburton and Bechtel’s triumphs in Iraq have been chewed over for months. Less well chronicled is the profiteering of the Carlyle Group, a company with ties that extend directly into the Oval Office itself.

Even Pappy Bush stands in line to profit handsomely from his son’s war making. The former president is on retainer with the Carlyle Group, the largest privately held defense contractor in the nation. Carlyle is run by Frank Carlucci, who served as the National Security advisor and Secretary of Defense under Ronald Reagan. Carlucci has his own embeds in the current Bush administration. At Princeton, his college roommate was Donald Rumsfeld. They’ve remained close friends and business associates ever since. When you have friends like this, you don’t need to hire lobbyists..

Bush Sr. serves as a kind of global emissary for Carlyle. The ex-president doesn’t negotiate arms deals; he simply opens the door for them, a kind of high level meet-and-greet. His special area of influence is the Middle East, primarily Saudi Arabia, where the Bush family has extensive business and political ties. According to an account in the Washington Post, Bush Sr. earns around $500,000 for each speech he makes on Carlyle’s behalf.

One of the Saudi investors lured to Carlyle by Bush was the BinLaden Group, the construction conglomerate owned by the family of Osama bin Laden. According to an investigation by the Wall Street Journal, Bush convinced Shafiq Bin Laden, Osama’s half brother, to sink $2 million of BinLaden Group money into Carlyle’s accounts. In a pr move, the Carlyle group cut its ties to the BinLaden Group in October 2001.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/09/06/when-war-is-swell-the-carlyle-group-and-the-middle-east-at-war/



This barely scratches the surface. The reality is that underneath what shows for public navigators is one enormous iceberg made from blood-red ice, invisible to the proles and serfs who are doing their best to keep afloat in a frozen sea of austerity, endless war and debt servitude. And these are, by far, the wealthiest times in human history.

PS: Did you see this on [link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026939527|that General Walker fellah], McMike? The guy's almost forgotten these days.

Mc Mike

(9,248 posts)
540. Thanks for the links. All the info is excellent.
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 08:40 PM
Aug 2015

I'm still unsure about the Booz Allen connection to Carlyle, but can look it up. I'd heard of Stratfor previously, but didn't know much about them, and had never seen info on the BIA before.

It's all quality info. To me, it's a 'chicken or egg' question, whether intel existed separate from mega corporate, and sold out to them, or mega corporate hijacked our tax dollars to create intel as a servant class tool. The end result's the same.

The Spaghetti Western parallels reminded me of the movie Straight to Hell. Excellent parody of modern corporate driven society\culture, if you haven't seen it.


I liked it for the music, as a fan of the Clash, Pogues, Elvis Costello, Courtney Love. The only let down was the inclusion of E Tudor Pole, instead of Johnny Rotten.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
541. Wikileaks showed State Department wheeler dealing, too.
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 10:19 PM
Aug 2015

This is why the State Department, Pentagon and who-knows-what-else made it a crime to visit Wikileaks.



'Shadow CIA' buys state secrets for cash via Swiss bank accounts, claims WikiLeaks as it releases 'stolen' files

Five million emails obtained from U.S.-based global security analysis firm Stratfor 'will reveal murky truth about intelligence gathering'

Julian Assange claims firm is monitoring activists for corporate giants and taking information from U.S. government department insiders


By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
27th February 2012

Whistleblowing website WikiLeaks today started to publish more than five million confidential emails from the global intelligence company Stratfor.

The emails, dated from July 2004 to late December 2011, are said to reveal the 'inner workings' of US-based firm known as the 'Shadow CIA'.

Among the allegations to emerge is that Stratfor's claim to be a media organisation providing a subscription intelligence newsletter is a front for 'running paid informants networks' and 'laundering those payments through the Bahamas, through Switzerland, through private credit cards'.

Stratfor 'is monitoring Bhopal activists for Dow Chemicals, Peta activities for Coca-Cola', WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange claimed at a press conference in London today.

SNIP...

The group said the emails expose a 'revolving door' in private intelligence companies in the U.S., claiming government and diplomatic sources give Stratfor advance knowledge of global politics and events in exchange for money.

CONTINUED ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2107041/WikiLeaks-releases-stolen-files-Shadow-CIA-buys-state-secrets-cash-Swiss-bank.html



Secret government means secret beneficiaries. Unfortunately for We the People and democracy, who those beneficiaries are, is classified.

Thank you for the heads up on "Straight to Hell." I do like cowboy-gangster hybrid cinema, McMike.

Mc Mike

(9,248 posts)
542. Everything for sale. Including national security.
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 11:20 PM
Aug 2015

What a bunch of treasonous greedy s o b s.

The Mail article is good. But they mis-spell Rove's name as 'rover'.

Dennis Hopper has a cameo in Straight to Hell as a businessman named I.G. Farben.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
517. It's been 10 days...have they come for anyone?
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:09 AM
Aug 2015

...or are we just talking about criticism you happen to disagree with?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
519. ''...or are we just talking about criticism you happen to disagree with?''
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:09 AM
Aug 2015

Here's the difference between me, a guy who supports ConsortiumNews and doesn't mind when my gore or hillary gets oxed by CounterPunch:

I want to be able to read what someone else thinks, even those I disagree with; those who want to shut down mention of ConsortiumNews and CounterPunch are different in that they don't want to give me that choice.

How undemocratic is that, brooklynite?

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
520. As far as I can tell, all of those sites are still up.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:16 AM
Aug 2015

And all of their contributors are still breathing.

It's almost like this was tasteless, hyperbolic nonsense or something.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
528. When it comes to the point, you really are there.
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 06:53 PM
Aug 2015

It's just that you work against it, NuclearDem. Why is that?

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
530. I would have thought given the truly grave threat against CN and CP
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 07:03 PM
Aug 2015

that they would've been taken down by now or their journalists dead.

It's almost like your Holocaust nonsense was just tasteless hyperbole!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
537. Where did I post ''Holocaust nonsense'' that ''was just tasteless hyperbole'' NuclearDem?
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 11:01 AM
Aug 2015

I don't mind you disagreeing, but alleging that I posted that is beyond what the lowest of the low have written about me on Conservative Cave, NuclearDem.

Here one thing I did write about the Holocaust:

George W Bush, at Auschwitz, revealed himself to be a ''Holocaust Denier.''





Press Gaggle on Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II-Birkenau

Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secretary

Krakow, Poland
May 31, 2003

EXCERPT...

MR. FLEISCHER: Oh, that probably extended some 30, 40 feet behind glass, and you just see hair. Women's hair. The guide talked about in the next room that Auschwitz was also a site of plunder because as the Jews were rounded up and sent there, they brought their belongings with them so they had their suitcases. They didn't know they were going to their death, so they carried their life's possessions with them, which was then quickly plundered, the guide explained.

The President saw the Jewish prayer shawls that were hanging. And then another deeply moving part, he saw artificial limbs, actual artificial limbs, prosthesis, legs that were there and which she explained to the President, even these were plundered after people were killed, and then used back in Germany.

The President would say things such as "Powerful." I just wrote down as I listened to him -- "powerful." When he saw the suitcases, he said, "So sad." And then at one point when he went by another display where there were teeny little shoes, the President looked at it and said, "All the little baby shoes." He told the guide, "You've done a good job recording history."

The President talked about the current context of it, how many people come each year. He asked, where do they come from. He asked, [font size="6"][font color="red"]"Do people challenge the accuracy of what you present?"[/font color][/font size]

Q: And what did the guide say?

MR. FLEISCHER: She explained where people come from. They come from all over, she said. A lot come from Poland, from the United States, from Israel, from Germany.

Q: Did she answer his question, do people challenge --

MR. FLEISCHER: I didn't get it. If she did, I don't remember, I didn't write it down.

Then he saw some cells where the prisoners were kept. Now, these are not -- at Birkenau he saw the bunk cells. But this were actual prison cells with doors that swing open and bars, very, very small rooms. And in one small room, the guide explained, there were 39 people in a small cell with a teeny, teeny little bit of air that came in from a window up top. And this cell was very small. And she said to him, on the doors you can see signs on how to scratch the door to survive. And you could see it -- on the door they would just scratch to get air into the room. They tried to claw their way through a very thick wooden door.

CONTINUED...

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2003/21131.htm



That's a lot different than what you imply I wrote, NuclearDem.

BTW: Like the commercial says, people can tell a lot about you from the words you use.
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
538. Invoking Rev. Niemoller after someone said something not nice about CP or CN
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 11:20 AM
Aug 2015

is tasteless Holocaust hyperbole.

People can also tell a lot about you by the people you associate with, Octafish. Just keep that in mind next time you decide to link to Holocaust deniers and antisemites.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
539. Seeing how I didn't write anything anti-Semitic, that makes your statement false, NuclearDem.
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 11:29 AM
Aug 2015

Why do insist on smearing me?

 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
526. Well, it's been a couple of weeks
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 02:21 PM
Aug 2015

and by some miracle the ConsortiumNews site is still running, so I guess we can all safely say nobody is "coming" for them?

Then you can ask the mods to lock this hand-wringing silliness?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
527. The worst kind of flies are drawn to shit.
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 06:51 PM
Aug 2015

I want to know about them. I'm talking about the warmongers and banksters and the rest who walk free while making wars without end for profits without cease.

They're why I post ConsortiumNews and other sources certain authoritarian-minded posters don't like.

So, to make it short, that's why I think the asshats and emoticon information shutdown brigade is so undemocratic Blue_Tires.

 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
534. By all means, keep posting Parry's stuff to your heart's content
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 10:41 PM
Aug 2015

and I'll keep proving him wrong...It's kind of a waste of time for both of us with the elections coming up, but marketplace of ideas and all that...

It would really be nice if Parry joined DU so I could talk to him directly and cut out the middlemen...Because he's never responded to any of my questions on twitter...

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
535. No offense, but I don't recall you proving Parry wrong about anything.
Sat Aug 8, 2015, 08:58 AM
Aug 2015

Including Flight MH-17.

Exclusive: Almost a year ago, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine killing 298 people. Yet, instead of a transparent investigation seeking justice, the case became a propaganda game of finger-pointing, with the CIA withholding key evidence all the better to blame Russia, reports Robert Parry.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/09/mh-17-case-slips-into-propaganda-fog/


If I missed your post proving Parry wrong, I will admit my mistake and apologize. Best of all, though, I will have learned something new.
 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
531. Which must pi** you off because
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 07:29 PM
Aug 2015

you seem to be prone to censorship. Ignore and insult what doesn't fit your world view.

 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
533. I ignore and insult Parry because he's wrong on everything these days...
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 10:35 PM
Aug 2015

and the only people who don't seem to know this are the people who get all their "analysis" about Ukraine from Parry, TASS, RT, Sputnik, etc...And dudebros jacking off to his easily-debunked conspiracy yarns on DU doesn't exactly raise the level of discussion around here...

So explain the "censorship" part -- How in fuck's name do I censor content on a message board I don't own or have any editorial control over? What exactly have I "censored" in my 13 years on DU?

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