Why did this girl cause her own murder?

[obamanut2012]

A 17-year-old girl is visiting her Dad and his girlfriend, and goes for a quick run down to the 7-11, just as it's getting dark, to buy a Coke and a Twix. She's hurrying back home so she doesn't miss the start of "Bridezilla when she notices some guy in an SUV cruising her, which really creeps her out. She walks faster, and calls her best friend on her cell to tell about the creepy guy.

When the guy keeps creeping her, she starts to really walk fast, and goes off the sidewalk and cuts across some of the common area, telling her BFF on the phone she is REALLY freaked now, but will be back home in just a minute.

What happens next is a bit confusing, but we know the girl was approached and confronted by this guy, and her survivor instinct kicked in. Maybe her Mom insisted she take some Judo or MMA classes for self defense, maybe she was cornered and the guy grabbed at her, maybe she saw his gun, maybe it was flight or fight, but whatever the reason, the girl felt she had to try and fight for her life, so she did. The BFF heard a struggle and then the cell went dead.

She punched the guy. Maybe. She kicked him in the balls. Maybe. She tripped him and then jumped on him and started hitting him, even though that makes little sense. Maybe she did some of these or none of these or all of these. We do know that the guy, who had creeped her, parked his car and followed her across a complex in the misty rainy dark, took his 9mm and shot her in the chest from 1 inch to four feet away.

We know he wasn't charged or tox checked, and witnesses were brushed off, we know that. We know it came out that the girl had a trace amount of THC in her system, and the media says she liked to sleep around and slut shamed her, and she had to do community service because she was foolish and spray painted a building once.

Why did this girl make the man shoot her? Why did she cause her own murder?

[Starry Messenger]

1. k&r

[obamanut2012]

2. Thanks

[enough]

3. +1 (nt)

[JustAnotherGen]

4. obamanut

That was very well written - unfortunately - only those who can already SEE the analogy will get it.

rec

[obamanut2012]

8. Thanks so very much

I didn't proof it, because I have to do some work this morning (for a change!), so your post means a lot to me.

[Cave_Johnson]

85. Lots of "if" and "maybe" in there...

If he grabbed for her...

Just as many possibilities on the other side...

[lunatica]

118. You mean you think she stalked him and forced him to shoot her in self defense?

She deliberately walked past his house to taunt him and then he innocently followed her and packing his gun because he has the right to and you never know when you'll need it the mean streets of a gated community. He followed her in his car while she was doing nothing but heading home and when he couldn't follow her in the car anymore he set off after her by foot. Heaven knows he had the right to demand where she was going because, after all she was taunting him and she deserved to be seen as suspicious. Then when he accosted her demanding answers she attacked him and scratched him and so he had no choice but to shoot her.

Yeah, I see where you might question why anyone would think he's guilty.

[obamanut2012]

120. +1

[Cave_Johnson]

123. The most important part is where..

... you go from words (i.e. demanding answers) to physical contact and violence.

That is where this case will be decided.

[lunatica]

126. So if she's on top of him beating him into a coma he has the

time to stop fighting back while he pulls his gun out of wherever it was and put it between them and shoot her point blank in the chest? Yeah, sure... I can see that.

And where exactly did he have the gun tucked away? In his front waistband? In his front pocket? In his jacket pocket? Because if he was on his back it would be physically impossible to reach around if he had in his waistband back there. Certainly not if he was being pummeled into major brain damage by someone on top of him. Was it holstered? If so then it was in plain sight and the girl would definitely have reason to fear for her life.

[Cave_Johnson]

127. Not sure where his was..

... but I know mine is concealed on my side, where I can access it with either arm, lying on my front or back.

[lunatica]

128. But if someone is on top of you banging your head into the cement

Can you actually put the gun between you and shoot him/her in the chest? Wouldn't you shoot them along the side of their body or even reach up and shoot them in the head?

It seems to me that the only way he could shoot Trayvon in the chest while Trayvon was attacking his head would be if he already had the gun out so it would be between them. And in that case if Trayvon attacked him then maybe it was in a desperate act of self defense.

[sabrina 1]

137. What would have happened if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck?

[Cave_Johnson]

138. It doesn't matter...

That's like telling someone that if they hadn't left their house that day, they wouldn't have been mugged.

The question of legality starts when the two people begin their interaction with each other and that is where information is lacking.

[sabrina 1]

141. So you equate someone going innocently about their business, leaving their home to go to work, or to

go shopping, with an armed vigilante, with a history of violence, some of it on the record, refusing to listen to a 911 operator, telling them clearly that they do not NEED him to stalk a teenager who, only HE at that point and wrongly as we know, viewed as suspicious?

How on earth do you do that? Show me how ordinary citizens going about their daily routine, are in any way comparable to Zimmerman?

[Cave_Johnson]

143. I think you understand the legal point...

... and are letting your emotion get in the way.

Calling 911 (even for a potentially racist reason), watching someone in your neighborhood, exiting a vehicle, walking after a person, asking a question (potentially in an aggressive manner)... Even ignoring the advice of a dispatcher.

These are all legal actions. I'll say again that the question of illegality comes during their actual physical interaction which is the murkiest time we have an accounting of.

I think you would get a lot more traction if you dialed back the emotional buzzwords.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "ordinary citizen." In what way are the people involved here not "ordinary" citizens?

[sabrina 1]

147. Changing the context of what I said doesn't change the context.

'In what way are the people here not ordinary citizens'. By asking that question, you avoided answering the question I asked.

So, I will ask it again:

In what way does an armed vigilante, with a history of violence, some of it on the record, stalking an innocent, unarmed, teenager, equate to an ordinary citizen. Let me make it simple, were Zimmerman's actions the actions of the average, ordinary citizen. Do most ordinary citizens end up killing innocent teenagers as they go about their daily routine?

You seem very emotionally involved in this case. It's pretty simple really. Had Zimmerman remained in his truck or at least left his weapon in his truck, or been prevented from carrying a weapon considering his violent history, Trayvon Martin would be alive and none of us would ever have heard of him.

But I am really interested in hearing how you equate Zimmerman to ordinary citizens. How many ordinary citizens kill random teenagers while going about their business?

[Cave_Johnson]

148. George Zimmerman is an ordinary citizen...

What other categories are there? Extraordinary? Sub-citizen?

There are a million "ifs"...

If he hadn't gotten out of his truck
If Martin had stayed 5 minutes longer at the convenience store...
If the second coming of Jesus distracted everyone for a few seconds...

We can only judge based on the events that happened.

The actions were legal up until the point of contention (i.e. the actual confrontation)

The reason I know I am not emotionally involved in this is because I don't care about either side. I'm interested in the legal and societal aspects of it and am curious as to what the outcome will be.

Some other folks seem to have an axe to grind and the outrage to go with it.

[sabrina 1]

150. It is not legal to stalk and harass someone.

Since when did that become legal?

He was not an ordinary citizen. He was a dangerous threat to society. He never should have been allowed to carry a weapon with his record of violence eg. This make me nervous, I thought that anyone with a record of violence was not allowed to get a license to carry.

Ordinary citizens do not kill teenagers on their way home from the store. They do not follow people around, armed for no reason at all other than their own paranoia. Frankly my feeling about him is that he has serious emotional problems that were either not treated, or were treated lightly by those around him. I would not be surprised if that becomes part of his defense. Anyone who exhibits the kind of violent reactions to events that witnesses have reported regarding him, is not a 'normal citizen'. They are a citizen with problems that should preclude them from carrying weapons in public. The tragic end to this story proves that.

As for being emotional, I should think any decent person would experience some emotion at the totally unnecessary loss of a young, innocent life. I would not boast about having no emotion about such a terrible tragedy.

[bupkus]

144. You're totally wrong. It does matter.

Because Zimmerman began the interaction when he pursued Martin. Zimmerman's actions led inevitably to his shooting Martin.

Your analogy to someone leaving their home and getting mugged is ridiculous. People have to leave their homes for myriad reasons. Zimmerman left his truck for one reason only -- to pursue Martin.

People readily make excuses for Zimmerman but they refuse to recognize the simple fact that if Zimmerman hadn't initiated this "interaction" Trayvon Martin would have gone home to watch the game and eat his Skittles. Martin had every right to be where he was. Zimmerman had no right to "interact" with Martin. Zimmerman was the agitator and aggressor and if Martin had been the one with the 9 mm I bet you and others like you wouldn't be searching for ludicrous excuses for the young black man who shot the white guy.

And please spare me the BS about Zimmerman's "mixed" race. In our society that is so focused on race Zimmerman passes for white every day of his life and I guaranty you he doesn't refute the status or take the time to clarify his pseudo-racial makeup.

[Cave_Johnson]

149. You are the only one talking about race...

"Your analogy to someone leaving their home and getting mugged is ridiculous. People have to leave their homes for myriad reasons. Zimmerman left his truck for one reason only -- to pursue Martin. "

"Zimmerman had no right to "interact" with Martin."

It is perfectly legal to walk after someone in the United States. It is perfectly legal to interact with anyone you want.

What are you going to charge him with? Illegal exit of a vehicle? Negligent Interaction?

[obamanut2012]

151. It is not legal to follow and harass someone

As I have stated here before several times, I had a man arrested for doing this to me, and he was charged and convicted.

And, anyone should definitely realize it isn't legal to do it to a minor. Oh, wait, let me answer what I know you will reply with: Zimmerman didn't know he was a minor? Well, ignorance is no excuse for committing a crime, is it? That's what the cops are for. You just dial 911 and let them do their job.

[onehandle]

5. This sounds oddly familiar. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. It's very clear that Martin's blackness is what allows people here and elsewhere

Not to see Zimmerman as the creepy stalker and Martin as the scared person in the dark defending himself.

Your post lays this bare.

Why is Martin not allowed to be terrified by some weirdo cruising him? Because he's young, black, and male. Period. And young black males, for far too many people - even supposed "progressives" on a board like this - don't get scared, but rather are scary. This is why Martin can't be terrified of weirdo stalker Zimmerman in the darkened courtyard, but Zimmerman is "in fear of his life" at the slightest hint of resistance. This is why Martin is suddenly 6'1, 6,'2, 6'3, a fucking black menacing giant, with gold teeth, pants hanging, blazing a Philly, pimp-limpin' around, backpack full of granny's wedding rings, while weirdo stalker Zimmerman is calmly getting to the bottom of things.

The racism - yes, outright racism - I've seen on even this board, by longtime DUers, has been astounding. Astounding. It makes my heart sick.

[Starry Messenger]

9. +1000

This place needs a big can of raid.

[awoke_in_2003]

43. You would think...

That the infestation that occurred during Operation Chaos would have left after the 2008 primary or election. Sadly, this is not the case. They are still here stinking up the place, and the loss of moderators isn't helping. When I was a mod, we had plenty of alerts that skirted the rules. They may not have been actionable, but the were "on the record" and could be used to see trends. As a juror, you do not see this history, and unless you have it in your mind that the person has a track record of doing this, what do you do? You can vote to hide, but do the other jurors know what you do? You can't discuss it with other jurors and get their feedback. I know for myself that I have a bad mind when it comes to remembering screen names.

[Starry Messenger]

61. I keep a mental list.

I have a good memory for DU assholes for some reason. It's like one of those mutant powers no one really wants. Really egregious threads I bookmark in a folder on my desktop just in case someone needs a reminder. The Admins seem to be canning some of these characters at a pretty good clip these days though. Maybe it's just a case of "enough rope".

[Iris]

103. I've wondered about the jury system

and the "silo-ing" of individual posts so that patterns of behavior are not visible.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. This is reminiscent of the time a Japanese exchange student in a Halloween costume

was shot dead because some anger junkie idiot "felt threatened."

The gun nuts defended the shooter that time, too.

[obamanut2012]

28. EXCELLENT POST!!!!!

Cosign the whole thing.

[chervilant]

38. Have you noticed

how relentlessly the M$M is working to establish that Zimmerman had 'significant wounds'? I can't open my home page without seeing some pro-Zimmerman crap.

[malaise]

64. Great OP and great response

[MADem]

69. Yes, everyone knows that "black youth"--even those who watch TV with their families, have a sweet

tooth for candy and iced tea, and who wear the fashion statements of the day--are never scared. Why, they're "ruffians" who are stone-cold "suspicious characters"--even when they're between age 7 and 9! Just ask George Zimmerman--he'll tell you! He actually reported a "suspicious" black male between the ages of seven and nine for committing the crime of PLAYING in his carport!!!

Do I need to whip out my thingie or is the context of my post sufficiently obvious?

[obamanut2012]

74. My God, I never heard that about the child being reported

[CreekDog]

76. you got it

[Number23]

96. "The racism - yes, outright racism - I've seen on even this board, by longtime DUers,

"The racism - yes, outright racism - I've seen on even this board, by longtime DUers, has been astounding."

It's not astounding at all, really.

Your entire post is magnificent. Thanks for that.

[JI7]

98. yup, i said this many times, change race and people would never defend this

but because he is black he has to prove from the grave that he was 100 percent pure.

[Iris]

102. + another 1000

n/t

[Nine]

111. Exactly. Anyone remember Bernard Goetz?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Goetz#Incident

Why do I think the same people arguing that Zimmerman had every right to chase Martin and that Martin had no reason to fear, no right to hurt Zimmerman... are the same people who would be applauding Goetz and saying those punks had it coming and of course asking for money is the same as a threat and of course blocking him off from the other passengers was an act of aggression? Why do I not think they would be arguing that those guys had every right to be on the subway, that standing in a certain configuration is not against the law, that asking for money is a perfectly innocent thing to do?

[gejohnston]

129. It is not about applauding, it is about looking at the facts without idological filters

Why do I think the same people arguing that Zimmerman had every right to chase Martin and that Martin had no reason to fear, no right to hurt Zimmerman

That was the original MSM meme, but the evidence does not seem to support that. If you listen the the "we don't need you to do that" tape, Zimmerman is speaking in a calm voice as though he is standing still. That does not mean it is justifiable homicide. It simply means that the corporate media started a narrative and the progressive media sticks to it even though it may not be true.

... are the same people who would be applauding Goetz and saying those punks had it coming and of course asking for money is the same as a threat and of course blocking him off from the other passengers was an act of aggression? Why do I not think they would be arguing that those guys had every right to be on the subway, that standing in a certain configuration is not against the law, that asking for money is a perfectly innocent thing to do?

You didn't read the entire Wikipedia page did you?

Some believed the version of the incident as told by the four men, that they were merely panhandling with neither intimidation nor threats of violence. This view was later discredited when Cabey admitted in a newspaper interview that his friends had indeed intended to rob Goetz, who looked like "easy bait".

Judge Crane granted a motion by Goetz to dismiss the new indictments, based on alleged errors in the prosecutor's instructions to the jury regarding Goetz's defense of justification for the use of deadly force. A second factor in the dismissal was the judge's opinion that testimony by Canty and Ramseur "strongly appeared" to have been perjury, based on later public statements by Canty and Ramseur that they had intended to rob Goetz,[57][58] and on a newspaper interview where Cabey stated that the other members of the group planned to frighten and rob Goetz because he "looked like easy bait".[59] The judge allowed the weapons possession and reckless endangerment charges to stand.[58]

In other words, there was no innocent panhandling.

Two survivors committing two armed robberies and a rape. Innocent panhandlers my ass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Goetz#Activities_since_the_incident

Speaking of NYC, ever heard of Austin Weeks? He was an African American guy that shot a white thug. He was not even charged for the illegal gun.
The problem is not SYG, or race. The problem is trial by media and ideologues spinning for their own purposes. No more, no less.

[Raine1967]

7. K&R -- Thank you.

This is well put and right to the very point. bookmarking. I hope everyone reads this.

[Volaris]

10. you know pisses me off most about this (this being the first time hearing this story)...

is that "she liked to sleep around..."

so fucking what? that makes it ok to shoot her?
"she had THC in her system..."
so fucking what? that makes it ok to shoot her?
"she had to do community service for spray painting a building..."
so fucking what? that makes it ok to shoot her?

I guess if your the Media, the answers to the above questions are all yes, duh..., of COURSE.

Without knowing ANYTHING else about this story, this guy is a fuck and needs to go to prison for a VERY long time. HE stalked HER, and now she is dead, and HE is the victim? fuck him. And fuck the media for playing the game this way.

I think If you want to run a television newsroom (network OR cable) you shouldn't be allowed to make a profit off of it. it should have to be revenue neutral, and every penny earned off ads run during that cast must be put BACK into that news program, to make it BETTER. If that means paying people more to not leave your show, or buying them better setpieces, FINE, whatever, but you can't collect it as profit, EVER. Go ahead and make all the cash you want off ENTERTAINMENT programming, but Journalism should be REQUIRED to be held to a different standard. And if you decide its just too much cash to give up, then you CAN'T call it NEWS, or the people who work there, Journalists, you have to call it ENTERTAINMENT (see MINDLESS, STUPID BULLSHIT) just like all the idiot reality shows you produce.
Sorry...I guess that's my 2 cents for the day.....

[BlancheSplanchnik]

18. It was a DAMN GOOD two cents!

DON'T apologize!

[JustAnotherGen]

19. My sister and I have kind of joked

That all young black men should be issued a gun so they can defend themselves - since walking around America as a young black male is a danger to oneself.

We half joke - I have two nephews - one 19 and one 16. It could have been Omar - with his earring, and baseball cap on backards. He's thin, tall (very tall at 16), and has a beautful dark complexion. But he's also a momma's boy and has never laid a finger on someone in his life. This is the kid that moves spiders out of his house instead of killing him.

Now - there are a lot of DU'ers who can't 'see' the analogy that obamanut made - and they would say -

Well he still had it coming becuase, because, because, because.

I wish these DU'ers would just admit that they would have done the exact same thing Zimmerman did - I wish they would admit that a young black male is a frightening thing to them.

If they would just ADMIT IT - who they are in their heart and soul - then I could respect them.

[obamanut2012]

25. +1

[JDPriestly]

70. Another way to look at this is to think of justice as a way to encourage and

discourage certain behaviors.

What do we as a society want to encourage?

1) Carrying a gun, following a person who has done nothing wrong but whom you consider suspicious simply because he is African-American, wearing a hoody and looking around, killing the person and then claiming self-defense?

2) Or walking home from the grocery store unarmed at night, doing nothing wrong and getting shot by a person who has followed you.

Seems to me we do not want to encourage the first person, and we want the second person to be safe.

So the law should protect the second person and, in my opinion, punish the first.

[tblue37]

84. Volaris, there is no 17-year-old girl vicitm who was slut-shamed.

Well, actually I am sure there are many such female victims, but this story is a completely made up one.

The OP is rewriting the Trayvon Martin case as though Trayvon were a young girl stalked by a creepy 28-tear-old man with a gun, to highlight the ridiculousness of all the nonsense that Zimmermann's defenders have been spreading about Trayvon to suggest that he was the one at fault for getting himself shot.

The OP's point is that if we think of the murdered victim in any other way than as a black male teenager, the victim's innocence and the perpetrator's guilt becomes self-evident, but our society is so racist that many people assume that Zimmermann was the one who had reason to be afraid and that Trayvon was the scary one in the situation.

[TheMadMonk]

105. These things don't establish that it was OK to shoot. What they do...

...is make it "not (or less) wrong" in the mind of the listener/reader for it to have happened.

"Oh, that is sad. But he/she had it coming behaving like that. Now where's that Pizza, my show's about to start and I'm gonna be so pissed if it's late."

Post facto perception management.

[usaprogress]

113. Hello!

It's called an analogy.... as in not a real story...... loosely based on the Travon deal. Hello? Geeeeez. There really should be a minimum IQ required to post here! Ed

[belcffub]

11. so lets play this game

mike was in a strange part of town looking to buy a sewing machine off craigslist for his mom's birthday.

He was on the phone with the seller in their neighborhood gazing out the window looking at house numbers and street names completely overlooking the girl walking not to far away... it's raining and mike has no sense of direction... he slowly creeps the car along as he is trying to figure out where he is

after going half a block mike gets out of the car to look around and see if he can figure out where the heck the sellers street is... he sees someone not to far and figures he'll ask if they have any idea where the street is and how to get to it from where they are... it's misting out and he's in a hurry as the seller said they will only be around for 15 more minutes...

what happens next is a bit confusing... as mike approached the young women and started to ask for directions she threw the phone to the ground and started attacking him. Confused mike fell to the ground when kicked to the groin and the young women continued to punch and smash his head on the ground. While on the ground a man, john, sees mike on the ground and the young women on top of him and runs into his house to call 911. Mike, fearing for his safety, pulls his legally owned 9mm pistol points it at the young women who upon seeing it grabs for it pulling it towards her causing it to discharge. When john looks out the windows the young women is on the ground and appears dead.

A few weeks later national news picked up on the story when mike was not charged. National leaders started talking about it. The president said the young women could have been his daughter... etc. etc...

my above narrative fits into yours... it's a mater of perspective...

[ET Awful]

13. But given the context, the only way your narrative would fit is if Mike lived in the neighborhood

was a member of neighborhood watch, called 911 and said that he saw a teenage girl acting suspicious and that he was following her, THEN engaged in the activities in which the altercation took place.

[beac]

80. correction:

"Mike" would not be a member of neighborhood watch b/c the person his character was based on was NOT a member of any organized neighborhood watch, but a self-appointed vigilante.


ETA: Of course, the whole "Mike" story is riddled with detals that have nothing to do w/the Zimmerman case, so why should we even bother to improve the poster's work of fiction.

[usaprogress]

132. You probably should

read the 183 pages of evidence released by the state yesterday before you post something as fact. The statement by the police department and at least 7 residents of the complex is that he is known by them as the local neighborhood watch captain. The 183 pages make for some interesting reading. Ed

[beac]

133. He may have called what he was doing "neighborhood watch"

but he certainly wasn't following the established protocols of USAonWatch, the national neighborhood watch organization and if he was "captaining" any group, they never registered as such. He was a dangerous nut with an authority complex and a gun who went out looking to be a "hero" and killed an innocent kid.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. But that wasn't what Zimmerman was doing

He was not driving around looking to make a Craigslist purchase.

Can you edit it to update it with that?

[belcffub]

31. I did not see zimmerman mention in the OP's story...

I understand what she did in writing it... I just wrote the fictional account of the other person...

[yellerpup]

17. False equivalency.

Zimmerman knew his surroundings, and the police told him to stand down. Whether his piece was legal or not he should not have used it to kill another person because he was scared.

[belcffub]

26. I was not fitting it into zimmerman

just the above narrative using parts of the case...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

53. Then what were you doing?

Getting practice for your creative fiction class?

[belcffub]

56. doing the same thing the OP did

I borrowed aspects of the martin/zimmerman case in the same manor the OP. I wrote my narrative based on the OP... I added aspects from the case that are well known but it is purely fictional... just like the OP...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. The OP simply switched out the race and gender aspects of the actual case.

Last edited Fri May 18, 2012, 04:56 PM - Edit history (1)

You, on the other hand, totally changed the situation. For example, instead of being a neighborhood watchman, Fake Zimmerman is now a stranger in some unfamiliar neighborhood and only wants to stop Fake Trayvon to ask for directions.

[obamanut2012]

75. Thank you, Tommy

Exactly right.

[JustAnotherGen]

42. thanks

for pointing that out.

[yellerpup]

44. My pleasure.

[ret5hd]

20. well, all except for the " strange part of town" and the "looking to buy a sewing machine" and ...

the "overlooking" and the "figures he'll ask if they have any idea where the street is and how to get to it from where they are" and the "started to ask for directions" parts IT"S ALL EXACTLY THE SAME!

Goddamn, Forrest Gump, you've busted this case wide open!!!

[obamanut2012]

21. I'm sorry you feel murdering someone is a game

[belcffub]

33. I was only performing the same act that your OP did...

you changed some facts to try and show the martin/zimmerman case from a different perspective... I left your facts in place and wrote a narrative that tells the story from the other side...

[Hoyt]

116. What you did is obvious. Why you feel that way, not so much.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Just proved the OP's point

Sounds like the off-duty cop in Hillsboro, Oregon several years ago who was out running and shot dead a Labrador Retriever that came bounding out of its yard barking.

The heartbroken owners said--and I believe them, having had family members who own Labs--that the dog was just extremely playful and probably thought that the off-duty cop was inviting it to play "chase."

Anger junkie with a touch of paranoia who carries a gun to the oddest places. A gated community? That's hardly the South Bronx. Even the South Bronx isn't really the South Bronx of legend.

Trayvon had no motivation to attack Zimmerman unless Zimmerman was stalking him. He was a kid buying snacks at a convenience store. Even if he had THC in his blood, marijuana tends to make people laid back, with a "whatever" attitude, not belligerent.

Zimmerman was the guy who routinely carried a gun. Even to a gated community. He responded to, at most, a bare-handed assault (if it indeed occurred--the "injuries" could have been post-incident self-inflicted injuries to make his story look good) with a fatal gunshot.

Personally, I consider routinely carrying a gun (if you're not a law enforcement officer) to be a sign of immaturity and serious anger issues, not to mention the scaredy-cat mentality that seems so common in America today.

Excessive fear makes people mean and dumb. The Republicans know this, which is why they're always going on about terrorism and crime.

[Old and In the Way]

47. IMHO, this case hinges on Zimmerman's "hobby".

He saw himself as a Duddley DoRight-type amatuer law and order guy. This wasn't his 1st time "on watch". We know what he thinks about blacks, in general: "These people always get away." He's already judged Trayvon and was in the process of confronting him...based on nothing but a bigoted hunch. I agree the trace of THC is a red herring and not likely to make Trayvon want a violent confrontation. It's pretty simply, without his gun, George doesn't go after Trayvon. With his gun, he's ready to confront and use it, if necessary.

[Starry Messenger]

27. lulz.

Have you even listened to the 911 tapes? Zimmerman told the dispatch what he was doing-which was basically hunting humans.

[Aerows]

29. No, it doesn't

Because Mike would have had to start harassing the girl first about what she was doing in the neighborhood. Then he would have had to start chasing her.

Those are two very different scenarios.

[belcffub]

32. the OP says nothing about the man harassing the girl first

just what she perceived... I wrote the male character that fits it...

from his perspective it works... for hers it works...

[Aerows]

40. Way to miss the point

I suspect that you will do anything to miss the point, so I'm not going to bother.

[JustAnotherGen]

45. You figured that out too?

[belcffub]

46. I got the point...

the OP wrote a narrative to try and get people to envision what the public perception of the martin/zimmerman altercation would have looked like had martin been female...

all I did was provide a narrative of the antagonist from the OP's narrative. I told it from a possible perspective of a antagonist that would fit into the world the OP created... in my version the antagonist is not evil... just lost... the OP's narrative still works from the protagonists perspective... they just made the wrong assumption about the man asking for directions...

[obamanut2012]

48. Right, you missed the point

And, I'm not replying to you anymore, because of the hijacking.

[indigoth]

65. actually

it's pretty clear you DID miss the point. and your attempt at the same sort of story from zimmerman's point of view was profoundly ... PROFOUNDLY ... not the same sort of treatment. zimmerman KNEW the neighborhood. he was driving slowly because he was STALKING his victim. those two points are painfully clear in ALL the evidence and you can't discard them the way you have done.

[JDPriestly]

72. But if you are lost, you avoid going behind houses. You try to stay on the street

where you can see the addresses. So, your example does not make sense at all.

[JDPriestly]

71. Looking for a house number that you got from Craig's list is very different from

calling the police and telling them about this suspicious person you have seen and then following that person to see what address the person goes to.

Your hypothetical is irrelevant to the facts in the Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case. It's just too different.

The fact is that Zimmerman made a call to 911 in which he profiled Trayvon Martin as a potentially dangerous person long before he and Trayvon Martin were in the same location on the same street at the same time.

We shall see. But Zimmerman was following Trayvon Martin, perhaps we could say he was pursuing him, not just looking for a random street number.

Besides, Trayvon Martin was murdered on the walkway between the backs of the houses in the development. Usually street numbers are at the fronts of the houses, so why would Zimmerman have been looking for a street number in the back yards of the houses?

[rhett o rick]

109. You people always think the person that dies is at fault and the person with the gun is god.

Now you will get together with your friends and talk about what kind of gun he used and what kind of ammo. Probably the kind of ammo that destroys as much tissue as possible. Then you will go to your mom's basement and stroke your gun dreaming about the day you will get to kill someone, legally. Are you Zimmerman??

[Hoyt]

117. Exactly. The last line is a classic.

[Paladin]

119. Bullseye, rhett o rick. Very well put..... (n/t)

[Romulox]

14. maybe...maybe...maybe... All the operative facts are shrouded in "maybe". nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

15. WWF!!!!!!

WWF!!

Walking While Female


You know DWB? Driving While Black?




WWF Would never get the meme power though. Girls are sexy and cause their own deaths every day by going outside. If they didn't want to get killed they should have thought of that before.

[obamanut2012]

23. I never said she was white

But you read it that way, didn't you? Guess what? When I wrote it I PICTURED THE GIRL AS WHITE, TOO. It is very interesting, isn't it? I am not slamming you at all.

And, I am stealing WWF!

[ScreamingMeemie]

34. "while" not "white"

I read it as white too.

[obamanut2012]

35. OOPS!

I need new contacts.

I like Walking While Female.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. I do too.

And, in the picture you painted so well (excellent writing!) I pictured the girl as white as well.

[awoke_in_2003]

49. How much of that has to do...

With how the media handles missing females? If a pretty white girl disappears you here about constantly for weeks. When is the last time we heard about a pretty young black girl disappearing? Does this not happen in our country? Of course it does, but it doesn't earn advertising money, which is the only thing that seems to matter anymore.

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. Agreed. I keep posting about a pretty black girl being executed in front of a relative's house.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002700772

On average, the post gets two replies.

[awoke_in_2003]

52. I went over...

And gave you a k&r, hopefully a few more do to get this up to greatest page for visibility

[BlancheSplanchnik]

54. I posted and kicked, too. n/t

[obamanut2012]

115. I now JUST read the thread

Need to kick it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

41. we do tend to go there as our default setting, don't we?

I didn't specifically say 'white' in my post, did I?

I have noticed that on those rare occasions when public attention is directed at racism AND sexism against a Black woman or women, the focus is on the racist aspects, while the sexist part is generally completely ignored! Ever noticed that?

I was just comparing the fact that murder of women, of any color--overt hate against women, and public victim blaming of women--does not ever seem to stir up a grassroots movement protesting hate and violence against women, while the parallel situation in a male, racist context DOES.

It is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that racism and violence capture public outcry (in case anyone thought I was complaining). What I am trying to say is, I want the SAME MASSIVE PUBLIC DEMAND for WOMEN.


On Edit: I ALSO am noticing a trend in this thread. Many posters are seeing this through a Racism filter---that it was written as a metaphor examining Racism, because it parallels Trayvon Martin's murder. [font size=4]Many people are missing the point that this kind of victim blaming and normalization of FEMICIDE is the accepted norm in REAL LIFE stories like the OP's. [/font] [font color=blue]-------------

-------I am saddened by this.[/font]

[JDPriestly]

73. True in general. Although believe it or not, sometimes it is the woman who is the abuser.

It sounds incredible, but I have seen several cases of this out of a limited sample of overall cases.

This can be especially true in cases in which a woman is abusing drugs or alcohol or is mentally ill or very distraught about something.

I do not think that women assault men they do not know very often.

And certainly, the numbers of assaults by men against women is far, far greater than the numbers of assaults by women against men, but men do sometimes suffer from assault.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

93. that's true

pretty rare, and as you say, stranger killings of men by women even more rare

assaults by men against women, though, is so common, it's hardly even questioned, and oddly, any possible systemic factors seem to be generally rejected in favor of "lone wolf" explanations. Collusion in victim blaming by the media is ignored altogether.

[tblue37]

86. BlancheSplanchnik, there is no 17-year-old girl vicitm who was slut-shamed.

Well, actually I am sure there are many such female victims, but this story is a completely made up one. See my post 84 above. The OP was creating a fictional analogy to the Trayvon Martin case.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

90. yes I know.

but it's true, as you said--there are many such female victims with stories exactly like the OP, including exoneration of the killer and blame of the victim.

and I am very saddened that this kind of victim blaming and normalization of FEMICIDE is the accepted norm in real life, that there is no such massive demand for justice and a change in the system as there is in racial hate crimes.

[wandy]

22. Hope you get the final screen script written befor Zimmerman's people do......

Really now. The script for Zimmerman the Eight Avenger is already in it's final re writes.....
Zimmerman the hero will be a box office smash.
You're just trying to steal the plot.
Yes you know that the 'girl' was an innocent bystander.
BUT THAT DON'T SELL MOVIES!
Great title!

Why did she cause her own murder?

Either way.

Dam! I can't wait for the movie.

[coalition_unwilling]

30. Emphatic K&R! - n/t

[TBF]

37. Well done, but you need to let the haters know what color she is -

they can't possibly provide an answer because we all know "walking while black through a white neighborhood" is just a crime waiting to happen. So we must shoot on sight.

*sarcasm tag for the impaired*

[BlancheSplanchnik]

55. WWF

this is actually about Walking While Female......regardless of color

[TBF]

63. That too. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

39. Thanks for pointing out...

The double standard. K&R

[zzaapp]

51. If there is a hell, I hope they reserve a special place for that %^%^&er

[a2liberal]

57. K&R (n/t)

[myrna minx]

59. Excellent. K&R n/t

[RagAss]

62. Very good analogy to the Iraq Invasion.

Or the Nazi's march into Poland.

[lunasun]

136. so true too

[jtuck004]

66. Self-appointed neighborhood watch captain.

On msnbc they are reporting this with the pictures and said

Neighborhood watch captain.

From what I can tell there was never any effort to create a real, accountable neighborhood watch. The killer just started his own club (did he make himself a "captain"? - no voting or supervision, that's convenient). There are rules established by a national association in conjuction with real police officers, and he followed none of them, apparently.

It's "self-appointed" "armed" neighborhood watch captain, if msnbc cares about accuracy. Or armed vigilante, if you prefer.

I have yet to see any official paperwork that established him as anything but a coward with a gun.

[airplaneman]

67. And then there is the black woman who got 20 years with no chance of parole.

She had a restraining order against her ex-husband that was still in force. He forcibly broke into her house and threatened to kill her. She fired a shot that missed him. Now she is in jail for 20 years mandatory sentence. What is wrong with our society.
-Airplane

[vaberella]

78. She fired in teh direction of two children.

I think if the two children were not standing next to him and were not placed in harms way she would have won her case. I feel bad for her situation...but at the same time I can see why the jury went the way they did in light of young children being in the direction of bullets.

[rhett o rick]

110. Are you f'n serious. She got 20 f'n years because she was black. Rationalize it anyway you want

it's still crap. How can you sleep at night.

[gejohnston]

130. No, it was because of Florida's manditory sentencing law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-20-Life

As far as the law is concerned, if you have the luxury of firing a warning shot, you were not in that great of a danger. Basically, she got 20 years for assault with a firearm.
Oh yeah, if the prosecutor is a white racist, then why is she trying to throw the book at Zimmerman? It is the same DA.

[rhett o rick]

135. She was "standing her ground" but for some reason, that law didnt apply to her.

What good are mandatory sentences if you have a judge determine subjectively via the SYG law that she or Zim even have to go to trial.

How many cases like hers get settled for a lesser charge? Where was the DA then?

I will believe the prosecutor is "throwing the book" when he is convicted. Bet he gets off. His assault w a firearm only killed someone black.

[gejohnston]

139. I don't know what the judge's logic was.

What good are mandatory sentences if you have a judge determine subjectively via the SYG law that she or Zim even have to go to trial.

I agree that is a flaw in the Florida law. Some states have better SYG laws, Oregon for example.

How many cases like hers get settled for a lesser charge? Where was the DA then?

Search me, but the DA in this case seems to have a rep for overcharging and going overboard.

I will believe the prosecutor is "throwing the book" when he is convicted. Bet he gets off. His assault w a firearm only killed someone black.

Depends on the jury instructions. He might, since that usually happens with trial by media. The media convicts someone before the trial, the evidence in court does not support the narrative, and people get pissed off. The DA over charged him. That said, I don't think he will get a fair trial. Already there are calls for him to plead out "so Orlando area won't burn" having nothing to do with the facts.
But Zim's case actually has nothing to do with SYG. It is either murder or justifiable that would have stood up under duty to retreat. Everything hinges on what can be proven what happened between the last phone call before the gun shots and the gun shot.

[rhett o rick]

142. I agree that Zimmerman's case isnt SYG, but isnt he going to get a SYG hearing?

If he does, then the judge can rule that he doesnt even have to go to trial.

[gejohnston]

145. true he could

but if the evidence convinces the judge that it is self defense, then it end. If Zims account is true, it would be justifiable with out SYG because he had no ability to retreat. Or, he committed murder. I think Oregon's law is better. It uses scenarios explaining what is justifiable and what is not. As far as Duty to Retreat goes, Wyoming has the best. Once you prove your self defense case in criminal court, you are immune to civil lawsuits on the issue.

[Blue_Tires]

68. brilliant

Don't forget the fun parts: Internet trolls invade DU with the...

"Why is the media showing the 'young' picture from three years ago? Here's what she looks like now!" And show some random photo of a tattooed, chiseled biker chick flipping off the camera...

"Why are Gloria Allred and all those other bulldyke feminazis marching in protest of this, but say nothing of the other zillion girls who get killed daily?"

"Why didn't she just stop and do what the nice man asked of her? If she wasn't doing anything illegal, she had nothing to worry about!"

Neighborhood "unnamed witness accounts" that report a rash of burglaries committed by teenage girls...We never caught anyone or got a good look at the culprit, but we're sure it was a teenage girl who kinda-sorta looked like her...Well, they all *do* look alike, anyways

Geraldo doubles down with the stupid on she shouldn't have been wearing what she had on

[obamanut2012]

77. Ha -- BRILLIANT addition!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

94. well done

does point out the race difference. Well put.

[Starry Messenger]

114. I wish I could rec a response.

Thanks for that.

[southernyankeebelle]

79. this is something new. Blame the victim as usual. Polls after polls show people want medical

weed legal. Now this poor girl is killed and she is a pot head and a slut. I don't get how this country can be so cruel.

[tblue37]

88. There is no 17-year-old girl vicitm who was slut-shamed.

Well, actually I am sure there are many such female victims, but this story is a completely made up one. See my post 84 above.

The OP was creating a fictional analogy to the Trayvon Martin case, not describing a real case.

[southernyankeebelle]

92. Well as I was reading this I was thinking of Trayon and the pot. That was why I made the comment.

I'm a little slow. Sorry about that. But it was written very well.

[maria2]

81. mhh...

i don't know..

[yardwork]

82. k n r

[Flatulo]

83. You didn't state whether she was black or white. It makes a difference, you know. nt

[obamanut2012]

89. I didn't mention it on purpose

[CakeGrrl]

100. Exactly. It reminds me of "A Time To Kill"

where white defendants were on trial for the rape of a young black girl.

The prosecutor closed by describing a scenario where the jury imagined this terrible thing happening to a young girl - the re-enactment of what was done to the victim.

He closed by saying "Now imagine if she were WHITE." Eyes flew open. The defendants were found guilty.

The implication? People realized that when they visualized a white victim, they felt more outrage at the crime and sympathy for the victim.

[gateley]

87. Well done! nt

[obamanut2012]

91. Thank you

I am surprised and very touched by how this has been received.

[gateley]

107. You present this in such a way that anyone who reads SHOULD be able to see

the real issue about this case. I suggest you smuggle it into the jury.

Edit:Oops, typo'd my smilie.

[uppityperson]

95. Thank you.

thank you.

[obamanut2012]

99. It was my pleasure

I needed a constructive way to express what I was feeling about so many "Travyon as aggressor" comments, IRL and on message boards.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

97. K&R Thanks!

[riverwalker]

101. brilliant post

nothing more needs to be said, IMHO.

[frogmarch]

104. Excellent post! Thanks for it. K&R nt

[Doctor_J]

106. I am not sure that it's all racism

I think the gunsters just like that a gun nut/vigilante is going to validate the SYG law. They really like the Wild West Law and care much less about who uses it than they do about the new "freedom" being exercised.

[Hoyt]

122. Basically agree about "gunsters." But, SYG laws are written with shooting minorities in mind.

May not be the only factor. But I'm convinced those in NRA, Republicans, and other right wing groups that support lax gun laws fear (or just plain hate) minorities. Therefore, SYG and similar laws are important to them from a racial perspective.

[Doctor_J]

125. The SYG laws will certainly be used more by whites against minorities

than vice-versa, and I am sure those who cheer the laws are well aware of that, and that it's a major factor. But the NRA does an excellent job of brainwashing their members that having the freedom to shoot people is the key thing. So while the laws will be administered in a racially biased way, I think a lot of non-racists are in favor of them. It will be interesting how this plays out. Of course Big Media has joined the Zim defense team, to no one's surprise. Will be depressing but stirring TV.

[gejohnston]

131. since when did MSM join the defense team?

The SYG laws will certainly be used more by whites against minorities than vice-versa, and I am sure those who cheer the laws are well aware of that, and that it's a major factor.

SYG and duty to retreat are both intra-race. How was anything different with Duty to retreat? Do you actually have any evidence?

But the NRA does an excellent job of brainwashing their members that having the freedom to shoot people is the key thing. So while the laws will be administered in a racially biased way, I think a lot of non-racists are in favor of them.

Do you think Duty to Retreat laws were not administered in a racially biased way?

It will be interesting how this plays out. Of course Big Media has joined the Zim defense team, to no one's surprise. Will be depressing but stirring TV.

When did "big media" join the defense team? When they had to back track from the "trial by media"? All of the opinions in the progressive media is based on the first MSM stories. Sorry, evidence is evidence. That was part of the evidence dump the DA put out. If it shows up in court, and proven in court, that is the way it goes. If it doesn't match someones opinion, shit happens.

[justiceischeap]

108. It's obvious isn't it? She had the tenacity to walk freely

that is why she caused her own murder and made the man shoot her.

Bravo!

[obamanut2012]

121. Thanks JIC!

How have you been?

[justiceischeap]

124. Busy, busy, busy!

But I've been good. I've given up Milk Duds for Pringles.

[NutmegYankee]

134. saying that Zimmerman was justified in his shooting...

is to say that an attempted rapist would be justified shooting his intended target when she fights back, claws his eyes and scrambles his eggs. People backing Zimmerman are just disgusting.

[gejohnston]

140. Who is backing Zimmerman?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm simply backing the truth regardless of what it is. The MSM started a "he is guilty facts or not" and progressives jumped on the band wagon. At first I did too, but I have been around long enough to remember other trial by media and open minded enough to look at the evidence to see where it goes.

[bupkus]

146. How can you claim to be backing the truth?

When you claim the MSM started with "he is is guilty facts or not"?

What actually happened was, the Sanford Police Department started a "he is innocent facts or not" and failed to collect crucial evidence at the scene or from Zimmerman. Then the lead detective was countermanded in arresting Zimmerman while Zimmerman's former magistrate father and the prosecutor were mysteriously at the police station apparently controlling the focus, scope and outcome of the investigation.

The reason so many people are making excuses for Zimmerman today is that the Sanford Police failed to handle this case properly right from the very start. Now the case has been tainted with false assumptions based on the failure of the police and the influence of outside parties in the investigation.

Example: If Trayvon Martin's toxicology tests are germane to the case then WHERE ARE ZIMMERMAN'S TOXICOLOGY TESTS?

Oh, that's right. No one took any samples from the innocent white guy. They only took samples from the dead black kid whose body sat in the morgue for three days while his parents searched for him.

Now people make excuses for a murderer and the truth is, as stated earlier in this thread, it's all based on racism. As usual in America.

[obamanut2012]

152. Excellent analogy

I agree.